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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815507#Comment_3815507
I main Survivor, so I know how difficult it is to escape through the gate after hatch is closed. It only happens perhaps 1 in 20 matches, not counting the ones where the Killer lets them out. You're trying to make it even more difficult than it already is, and I will not support that. I have a clip of me escaping through the exit gate after hatch was closed, but I only escaped because the Killer allowed it.
Of course you'd also suggest Survivors instantly die after closing hatch. That's how sweaty for the 4k you are.
Btw, a consistent argument you make is that "killers shouldn't be guaranteed a free kill when closing hatch". I could easily turn your logic against you. Killers get nothing when they find hatch. Survivors get an escape. Why is it fine for survivors to be "guaranteed a free escape" when they find hatch? The odds of finding hatch is 50/50 for most killers, so why don't killers get the equivalent when they find hatch, which is a kill? It seems you are a hypocrite and only want survivors to get a free escape from hatch. I don't want to hear the excuse about some killers having mobility. Only 15% of killers have high mobility that lets them find hatch easier.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815359#Comment_3815359
If the "sitting on gate" strategy is the only viable strategy, why don't survivors just instantly die if they don't open the gate in the first 30 seconds of hatch close? You mentioned in previous comments that the hatch is intended to close out the game faster. By your logic, there's no point of keeping the game going after 30 seconds since the survivor is "guaranteed to die" when they don't open the gate immediately. The survivor should just instantly die at 30 seconds to "close out the game faster".
They might as well instantly die if they don't open the gate within 30 seconds of hatch closing. That's how slim their chances of escape are.
Also, this guaranteed to die argument is bs. There are definitely maps where gates cannot be easily patrolled, e.g. The Game, Lery's, and Hawkins. These maps highly favour survivor for the exit gates.
Which is why you want the exit gate to be blocked. You want Survivors to be guaranteed to die. That's the only reason you're wanting this change.
They might as well instantly die if they don't open the gate within 30 seconds of hatch closing. That's how slim their chances of escape are.
So you are in support of making survivors instantly die after 30 seconds of hatch close? I'll open a thread with this suggestion if you are.
Which is why you want the exit gate to be blocked. You want Survivors to be guaranteed to die. That's the only reason you're wanting this change.
No. I'm saying on those maps after the hatch is closed, it is difficult to patrol the gates, so the survivor still has a very good chance of escaping through the gate without abusing the instant door strat. My suggestion doesn't change this.
I still can't believe you think survivors are guaranteed to die when hatch is closed. Do I seriously need to link a clip of a survivor escaping after hatch is closed?
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815335#Comment_3815335
You're still contradicting yourself. You keep mentioning that this change would "make it easier for killers, who are trying to make the survivor give up". This change only benefits killers when they close hatch. By saying that this change would make things easier for killers sitting on hatch, you are admitting that these killers would close hatch and hence benefit from the change.
But you clearly want to benefit from the change by closing the hatch. The "sitting on gate" strategy is the only viable strategy that Survivors have left, and you're wanting to take that away from them and leave them with no strategy at all, thus guaranteeing the 4k.
Seriously, you're starting to sound like that one guy who constantly complains about losing their only kill due to the 4% self-unhook or Deliverance, announcing every time it happens to them and begging to get rid of 4% and self-unhook perks in endgame.
If the "sitting on gate" strategy is the only viable strategy, why don't survivors just instantly die if they don't open the gate in the first 30 seconds of hatch close? You mentioned in previous comments that the hatch is intended to close out the game faster. By your logic, there's no point of keeping the game going after 30 seconds since the survivor is "guaranteed to die" when they don't open the gate immediately. The survivor should just instantly die at 30 seconds to "close out the game faster".
Also, this guaranteed to die argument is bs. There are definitely maps where gates cannot be easily patrolled, e.g. The Game, Lery's, and Hawkins. These maps highly favour survivor for the exit gates.
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@Rulebreaker said:
We feel like your purposely doing these mental gymnastics to keep this zombie alive.
Closing hatch =/= survivor escape
Closing hatch = door game
Door game = small skill and lotta RNG aka luck
Closing hatch = no hatch stand off
If you don't understand that there is no helping you. (Granted we don't know why we're bothering to try in the first place)
Comparing it to survivors begging the killer to kill them would be funny if we thought you were joking. No it is not. All closing hatch does is give that survivor a chance. Possibly bad, possibly good, but it doesn't guarantee nothing except the end of the trial. Meanwhile survivors begging killers is basically tossing any semblance of RNG and is at the mercy of another player.
Both sides are equally to blame since both sides can give up at any time.
Did you even read the whole thing?
Similar to the old hatch stand off, the killer could just hit the survivor or walk away and the hatch stand off would be over. However, the old hatch stand off was still removed. This means that the developers don't think that forcing one side to give up is good.
We got something for your logic below 👇. The past stand offs had neither side being able to do something without losing, currently "stand offs" are completely in the killers favor because they can close it and get priority when doing so. The old hatch mechanic was removed because people were sitting there for long arsed times. Like old 3 gen camp with eruption brine skully long. Maybe the devs think that the trial should end in a timely manner? Who knows, no one here knows what they think unless they explicitly say something.
It's not easier. Objectively speaking, the best strategy to stand afk on the hatch until the survivor gives up. This is easier than closing the hatch and contesting the gates
So first off when a survivor like us sees someone sitting on the hatch and decides to do the gens, what happens? We got nice stories about killers learning something~
Second going by your logic above, if the devs don't think forcing one side to give up is a good idea, why would they make it easier for killers, who are trying to make the survivor give up, by following your suggestion? We see it now, second to last survivor died, both doors and hatch open, and the killer can't close the hatch. All because people can't take the chance for RNG.
If the survivor is looking for hatch instead of camping the gate, which they will be most of the time, checking both doors is basically an automatic escape because it takes too much time to check both doors thoroughly.
If they are doing this then they ain't doing the "strategy" of sitting and waiting at the gate then ain't they?~
Again we state, you don't want to leave anything to chance. That's what it sounds like and that's what we currently believe.
Already discussed in previous comments why this is a bad argument.
Actually everyone else explained why it's a good idea to bring them if you don't like the "strategy".
Not really. On large maps, it's almost certain that hatch will spawn far from the gate.
And those times where hatch spawns between the doors on large maps, where you can see both doors? Then there's the times where you can get to those close doors despite the hatch being away. Then there's the times where the killer checks the doors before closing the hatch because they suspect shenanigans. Then there's the times where the killer brings perks like no way out. Killers can do more than sit on their butts next to hatch.
You still haven't explained how it doesn't fix it. If the survivor can no longer abuse the strategy, why would I need to hatch stand off? You're also contradicting yourself. You said that No Way Out would counter the strategy, so you're admitting that No Way Out would solve the problem, which is similar to my suggestion.
Both past and "present" hatch stand offs are caused by the players. People who currently sit on their butts wouldn't change because of this. Why give survivors any chance when they can sit and wait and get a guarantee (that's their thought process in our heads)? Your suggestion doesn't fix the problem, what it does is make things easier for killers.
We're not contradicting ourselves because as we've said, it doesn't fix "stand offs". It doesn't fix the problem of the player. It may make the "strategy" you have so much issue with harder, but has nothing to do with a hatch stand off or the fact that the killer can and would still do it. Instead of a base kit change to counter this, try using said perks mentioned as blocking the powered door for any extended length is a hefty thing.
Closing hatch =/= survivor escape
Closing hatch = door game
Door game = small skill and lotta RNG aka luck
Closing hatch = no hatch stand off
If you don't understand that there is no helping you. (Granted we don't know why we're bothering to try in the first place)
Comparing it to survivors begging the killer to kill them would be funny if we thought you were joking. No it is not. All closing hatch does is give that survivor a chance. Possibly bad, possibly good, but it doesn't guarantee nothing except the end of the trial. Meanwhile survivors begging killers is basically tossing any semblance of RNG and is at the mercy of another player.
I literally linked a clip in which closing hatch = escape. The survivor was waiting at the exit gate to instantly open the gate as hatch is closed. Without mobility, the killer cannot reach the survivor in time to stop them openning the gate. Therefore, close hatch = escape. In the clip, the only counter play was waiting on the hatch until the survivor gives up.
Did you even read the whole thing?
Yes. As long as both sides have equal power to end the hatch stand off, both sides are equally at fault. You keep thinking the killer is more at fault, which is incorrect.
We got something for your logic below 👇. The past stand offs had neither side being able to do something without losing, currently "stand offs" are completely in the killers favor because they can close it and get priority when doing so. The old hatch mechanic was removed because people were sitting there for long arsed times. Like old 3 gen camp with eruption brine skully long. Maybe the devs think that the trial should end in a timely manner? Who knows, no one here knows what they think unless they explicitly say something.
Same as the current hatch stand off. One side has to accept an escape or death for it to end.
So first off when a survivor like us sees someone sitting on the hatch and decides to do the gens, what happens? We got nice stories about killers learning something~
I have no idea what you are talking about but if you did gens, that would be in the killer's favour. In that scenario, I would close hatch and immediately run to the completed gen. As a survivor, doing gens is strictly worse than waiting as a completed gen would reveal your location. Also, I would no longer need to afk on the hatch since I know the survivor is not waiting at the exit gate to open it instantly.
Second going by your logic above, if the devs don't think forcing one side to give up is a good idea, why would they make it easier for killers, who are trying to make the survivor give up, by following your suggestion?
The biggest reason is that if the killer found hatch, they should be rewarded for it. When a survivor finds hatch, they get an escape. When a killer finds hatch, they get nothing. There is a massive disparity between killer and survivor for hatch. Killers should be rewarded for finding hatch to make it even.
Also, I don't know why people keep thinking this is a massive buff for killers. This change would literally not matter for most games and would probably only increase the kill rate by 0.1%. In almost every game, survivors start openning the gate in the last 50% of the end game timer. The gates would be unblocked by then, so the gates being blocked initially would have 0 impact. I already explained this in my post:
The gate should be blocked for 15 seconds the moment hatch is closed. It won't be like No Way Out where it is only blocked when the survivors touch the gate. This change will only impact people abusing this strategy. There will be virtually no impact to survivors looking for hatch as normal since survivors typically attempt to open the gate in last 20%-30% of the end game timer and running to the gate takes more than 15 seconds most of the time, so the gate will already be unblocked by the time they reach it.
Also, the survivor is equally at fault. When the survivor hides, they are forcing the killer into giving up and closing hatch.
If they are doing this then they ain't doing the "strategy" of sitting and waiting at the gate then ain't they?~
No, and that doesn't matter. It's a problem when they are abusing the strategy. It's impossible to know whether they are using the strategy or not, which is why it's hard to counter it.
Again we state, you don't want to leave anything to chance. That's what it sounds like and that's what we currently believe.
False. My suggestion still leaves things to chance. My suggestion just prevents survivors from abusing the instant door open strat. Survivors still have a chance to open the door normally i.e. play the game normally instead of cheesing for the escape. I'm not against chance. I'm against a strategy that heavily favours survivors. The odds are like 80% in favour of survivor when using the strategy.
Actually everyone else explained why it's a good idea to bring them if you don't like the "strategy".
As long as you aren't fine with removing base kit Borrowed Time, you can't tell me to run No Way Out instead of patching hatch stand offs. There will always be a flaw in your argument, which you should run Borrowed Time or Off The Record instead of having it base kit.
And those times where hatch spawns between the doors on large maps, where you can see both doors? Then there's the times where you can get to those close doors despite the hatch being away. Then there's the times where the killer checks the doors before closing the hatch because they suspect shenanigans. Then there's the times where the killer brings perks like no way out. Killers can do more than sit on their butts next to hatch.
It's RNG, but it's a problem when it occurs. The old hatch stand off was RNG too. Both survivor and killer running to the hatch at the exact same time is complete RNG. Old hatch stand off was patched out despite it being RNG, so the current hatch stand off should be patched out too.
Both past and "present" hatch stand offs are caused by the players. People who currently sit on their butts wouldn't change because of this. Why give survivors any chance when they can sit and wait and get a guarantee (that's their thought process in our heads)? Your suggestion doesn't fix the problem, what it does is make things easier for killers.
We're not contradicting ourselves because as we've said, it doesn't fix "stand offs". It doesn't fix the problem of the player. It may make the "strategy" you have so much issue with harder, but has
nothingto do with a hatch stand off or the fact that the killer can and would still do it. Instead of a base kit change to counter this, try using said perks mentioned as blocking the powered door for any extended length is a hefty thing.I'm not against playing for doors when it's fair, but if it's heavily in favour of survivor, I would rather sit on hatch. This change is intended to make exit gates fairer by eliminating a cheese strategy.
You're still contradicting yourself. You keep mentioning that this change would "make it easier for killers, who are trying to make the survivor give up". This change only benefits killers when they close hatch. By saying that this change would make things easier for killers sitting on hatch, you are admitting that these killers would close hatch and hence benefit from the change.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
Eh... since when does The Game have exits who are far away from each other?
Also your suggestion doesn't change much. If you block the exit switch survivors will just hide while you search the gates then use the red light start to get out anyway.
Always? The Game is one of the hardest maps to patrol the Exit Gates. That isn't relevant anyway. It's because the Hatch always spawns in the lower level, so reaching the exit gate after closing hatch takes a long time.
@Slaymore said:
The solution is to avoid the killer's ability to body block the hatch. Enable the survivor to sneak up quickly and go through from behind/etc. If the killer has an issue with it then they should have just shut the hatch when they found it.
Would make no difference. The killer just has to look around while standing on the hatch and close it when they see the survivor.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814529#Comment_3814529
Lets ask you this: Who has the power to close the hatch, thus preventing a hatch stand off? While both parties have some blame (the killer for the obvious, the survivor not doing gens when they figure out what the arse is doing) that situation can easily be avoided if the killer simply closes the damn hatch. So what we see is you asking for things to be easier for killer for your own reasons, not some thing thats needed.
That "strategy" will not help if you check doors either before you find the hatch or after and dont close it, that "strategy" will not help and the doors are close together, that "strategy" will not work if you have either "no way out" or "remember" me equipped. That "strategy" only works if RNG favors that survivor that specific day, and because RNG is fair, its an equal chance it will favor the killer.
This doesn't fix hatch stand offs.
Who has the power to close the hatch, thus preventing a hatch stand off?
Closing hatch = survivor escape
It's no different from asking the survivor to come suicide to the killer.
While both parties have some blame (the killer for the obvious,
Both sides are equally to blame since both sides can give up at any time.
killer simply closes the damn hatch.
Similar to the old hatch stand off, the killer could just hit the survivor or walk away and the hatch stand off would be over. However, the old hatch stand off was still removed. This means that the developers don't think that forcing one side to give up is good.
So what we see is you asking for things to be easier for killer for your own reasons, not some thing thats needed.
It's not easier. Objectively speaking, the best strategy to stand afk on the hatch until the survivor gives up. This is easier than closing the hatch and contesting the gates.
That "strategy" will not help if you check doors either before you find the hatch or after and dont close it,
If the survivor is looking for hatch instead of camping the gate, which they will be most of the time, checking both doors is basically an automatic escape because it takes too much time to check both doors thoroughly.
"strategy" will not work if you have either "no way out" or "remember" me equipped
Already discussed in previous comments why this is a bad argument.
That "strategy" only works if RNG favors that survivor that specific day, and because RNG is fair, its an equal chance it will favor the killer.
Not really. On large maps, it's almost certain that hatch will spawn far from the gate.
This doesn't fix hatch stand offs.
You still haven't explained how it doesn't fix it. If the survivor can no longer abuse the strategy, why would I need to hatch stand off? You're also contradicting yourself. You said that No Way Out would counter the strategy, so you're admitting that No Way Out would solve the problem, which is similar to my suggestion.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814184#Comment_3814184
Your suggestion doesn't infact fix hatch stand off. That was fixed with the killers ability to close the hatch. Your change is just what you want to happen instead.
It would. If gates were temporarily blocked on hatch close, survivors can no longer instantly open gate. This will kill off the strategy I mentioned and thus the requirement for hatch stand off.
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@A_T_E said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814178#Comment_3814178
You wanting them to be compable, still doesn't make it comparable. Sorry to break it to you.
Basekit to prevent tunneling & camping =/= Basekit to reduce the risk of Victims escaping.
The first is to fix how Killers play in a way not intended by the devs (tunneling & camping), the other isn't against the intention of the game, i.e. Victims escaping.
Just. Run. "No Way Out".
Basekit to prevent tunneling & camping =/= Basekit to reduce the risk of Victims escaping.
What? If base kit Borrowed Time and anti-camp meter was removed, the kill rate would definitely increase. You're telling me if survivors had no Borrowed Time off hook and I could just instant down them as they got off, the kill rate wouldn't increase? Base kit anti-tunnel and anti-camp increases the escape rate far more than the change I suggested.
My suggestion = increases kill rate slightly
Base kit anti-tunnel and anti-camp = increases escape rate significantly
The first is to fix how Killers play in a way not intended by the devs (tunneling & camping),
False. The devs have already stated that tunnelling and camping is an acceptable strategy.
the other isn't against the intention of the game, i.e. Victims escaping.
False. My change is intended to fix a hatch stand off, which is unintended by the devs and why it was patched out in the past.
Fully comparable
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@A_T_E said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814171#Comment_3814171
Incomparable.
Basekit Borrowed Time was to prevent camping and tunneling.
"No Way Out" is for people like you, who have a hard time seeing the difference between needing more skill, and thinking there's something that needs to be fixed (spoiler: git gud).
The clip you necro'd this thread with:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814159#Comment_3814159
Literally have the guy get stuck on terrain twice, then pretend like he didn't have a chance, plus what @cclain said, there's perks to help open the gate faster.
Incomparable.
Basekit Borrowed Time was to prevent camping and tunneling.
"No Way Out" is for people like you, who have a hard time seeing the difference between needing more skill, and thinking there's something that needs to be fixed (spoiler: git gud).
The clip you necro'd this thread with:
Your argument is basically base kit x isn't necessary since you can run x perk. This is fully comparable to the Borrowed Time example.
Basekit Borrowed Time was to prevent camping and tunneling.
What does the Borrowed Time perk do? Let me link it for you. It does the same thing as base kit Borrowed Time but better.
"No Way Out" is for people like you, who have a hard time seeing the difference between needing more skill, and thinking there's something that needs to be fixed (spoiler: git gud).
Literally have the guy get stuck on terrain twice, then pretend like he didn't have a chance, plus what @cclain said, there's perks to help open the gate faster.
More skill isn't going to make you walk to the gate faster. This is already a near optimal example with only 2 seconds of time waste. Under normal circumstances, the killer isn't going to walk in a straight line to the correct gate with 0 time waste. They're going to check the closer gate and look around for the survivor. Also,
if he was playing a standard m1 killer, he would have to hit the survivor. This gives them extra time (2.7 sec) to open the gate + escape with injured speed boost. Also, I already said that this isn't a large map. On larger maps, he wouldn't have even been close.
Let's say he didn't waste 2 seconds getting stuck on a tree and he was playing a standard M1 killer, he would have to spend some extra seconds walking to the survivor and hit them, which takes 2.7 seconds. In that time, the survivor can open the gate and escape.
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Let's remove Borrowed Time base kit since you can just run Borrowed Time. Same logic for why it's a bad argument: people shouldn't be forced to run a perk to counter something un-counterable base kit. In the case of Borrowed Time, it was hook farming.
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@cclain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814159#Comment_3814159
maybe dont press w on tree for a first part.
maybe nicolas cage has hope
and dont forget the gate spawn in random position.
Now for the win/lose debate
For killer a win is 3K, a draw is 2K , its not how I see that, its how mmr work.
At 3k you gain some mmr.
As survivor only your win make you gain some mmr, so the heartattack button is stupid bullshit and has nothing to do in the debate.
Maybe the probleme here is you can close the hatch.
I start to play in 2017, you can't close hatch before clown and key was instant.
Killers have already been pretty buffed on the end gamemaybe dont press w on tree for a first part.
It would have made no difference if he got stuck or not. This is already a near optimal example with only 2 seconds of time waste. Under normal circumstances, the killer isn't going to walk in a straight line to the correct gate with 0 time waste. They're going to check the closer gate and look around for the survivor. Also, if he was playing a standard m1 killer, he would have to hit the survivor. This gives them extra time (2.7 sec) to open the gate + escape with injured speed boost. Also, this isn't a large map. On larger maps, e.g. Nostromo, The Game, and Lery's, he wouldn't have even been close.
maybe nicolas cage has hope
False. It takes 20 seconds to open the gate. I timed it. This Nic Cage opened it in exactly 20 seconds from when hatch was closed. Therefore, he was waiting on the gate and started openning it immediately. Clearly abusing the strategy I described.
Now for the win/lose debate
For killer a win is 3K, a draw is 2K , its not how I see that, its how mmr work.
At 3k you gain some mmr.As survivor only your win make you gain some mmr, so the heartattack button is stupid bullshit and has nothing to do in the debate.
Maybe the probleme here is you can close the hatch.
I start to play in 2017, you can't close hatch before clown and key was instant.
Killers have already been pretty buffed on the end gameIrrelevant. The problem here is a 0 counter play situation asides from hatch stand off. Hatch stand off was patched out. This should too.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. He basically walked directly to the gate and couldn't reach it in time before the survivor openned it. The only counter play was to hatch stand off. He got blocked for 2 sec but it didn't matter.
https://www.twitch.tv/seth_kills/clip/RoundSleepyPterodactylBabyRage-XqTPKnL3dyuTbl3Y
The people who say you can make it in time with no mobility have no idea what they are talking about.
The killer can absolutely make it to the exit gate after closing the hatch in time. If they choose the right exit, which means the survivor still has a 50/50 chance. Considering the survivor would have to forego attempting to find the hatch to pull this off, it's still only one 50/50 coin flip.
He chose the right gate and still couldn't make it in time? This is a near optimal example with only 2 seconds of time waste. Under normal circumstances, the killer isn't going to walk in a straight line to the correct gate with 0 time waste. They're going to check the closer gate and look around for the survivor. Also, if he was playing a standard m1 killer, he would have to hit the survivor. This gives them extra time (2.7 sec) to open the gate + escape with injured speed boost. Also, this isn't a large map. On larger maps, e.g. Nostromo, The Game, and Lery's, he wouldn't have even been close.
https://www.twitch.tv/seth_kills/clip/RoundSleepyPterodactylBabyRage-XqTPKnL3dyuTbl3Y -
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. He basically walked directly to the gate and couldn't reach it in time before the survivor openned it. The only counter play was to hatch stand off. This is already a near optimal example with only 2 seconds of time waste. Under normal circumstances, the killer isn't going to walk in a straight line to the correct gate with 0 time waste. They're going to check the closer gate and look around for the survivor. Also, if he was playing a standard m1 killer, he would have to hit the survivor. This gives them extra time (2.7 sec) to open the gate + escape with injured speed boost. Also, this isn't a large map. On larger maps, e.g. Nostromo, The Game, and Lery's, he wouldn't have even been close.
https://www.twitch.tv/seth_kills/clip/RoundSleepyPterodactylBabyRage-XqTPKnL3dyuTbl3YThe people who say you can always make it in time with no mobility have no idea what they are talking about.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814065#Comment_3814065
Alright, lets say that nothing works anymore and she is in need of buffs.
What buffs do you suggest?
115 m/s and 15 traps are most the important. Faster trap setting speed too would be ideal.
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Make Your Choice, basement hooks
Both of these involve proxy camping. She also can't force trades with MYC. Survivors just have to crouch and remove the trap before unhooking.
3-gen.
Her 3 gen is very overrated because once you get down to a 3 gen situation, survivors won't take normal routes. They can run into spots they normally wouldn't run, e.g. edge of map, to evade the traps because they know Hag doesn't have time to pursue them there. There are far too many routes for Hag to cover in a 3 gen. Hag also has no chase potential, so survivors can just keep resetting every time they get injured. Hag will eventually run out of regression events. 3 gen Hag is more so just slowly losing the game.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/429046/hag-needs-a-buff
weren't you one of player that requested they nerf camping by increasing hook timers? they nerfed camping.
No. I said they should increase the rate at which the anti-camp meter builds instead of increasing hook timers.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812262#Comment_3812262
Your insistence on this logically incoherent argument is frustrating. Kill rates when using Oppression are 16th highest of all killer perks. Pick rate being 41st indicates it may be underrated, but there are many other factors that go into perk choice than its effectiveness in a vacuum: fun, synergies with other perks in your build and your killer's kit, whether or not you have the perk unlocked in the first place (and many probably don't because no one plays Twins), etc.
A low number of kicks does not necessarily mean that kicking gens is a low priority. It could just as easily be a factor of meta perks applying regression to key gens for them or encouraging them to immediately start a new chase (Pain Res, Ruin, Surge, BBQ, Friends to the End, etc. are popular picks), killers avoiding kicks on less important gens to save Pops for key gens, for regression to be important but only in certain situations (e.g. once you get into 3v1, only on gens with a lot of progress), for regression to be useful but not useful enough to pass up immediately starting a new chase, etc. It is one data point.
They have said 60% in the past and there is essentially no difference between 62.5% and 60%. Nowhere did I dispute your number. I just said this is not healthy for a PvP game. The target win rate for any PvP game should be even on both sides. If they are worried about killer queue times, there are plenty of other ways to address that besides making it easier to win. If they are worried about the horror atmosphere… yeah no, that ship has long since sailed lol
You are just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. None of this has anything to do with whether not base kit regression should be increased.
Your insistence on this logically incoherent argument is frustrating. Kill rates when using Oppression are 16th highest of all killer perks. Pick rate being 41st indicates it
maybe underrated, but there are many other factors that go into perk choice than its effectiveness in a vacuum: fun, synergies with other perks in your build and your killer's kit, whether or not you have the perk unlocked in the first place (and many probably don't because no one plays Twins), etc.If we're only looking at kill rate, why don't we buff Nurse who has had the lowest kill rate for the past 5 years? Why does Nurse keep getting nerfed despite her low kill rates? Also, there's no way those kill rates accurately depict perk strength. Looking at the top kill rate perks, we have Machine Learning at first, Hex Pentimento 2nd, Dark Devotion 6th, and Overcharge 9th. Are we really calling these the best perks in the game?
A low number of kicks does not necessarily mean that kicking gens is a low priority. It could just as easily be a factor of meta perks applying regression to key gens for them or encouraging them to immediately start a new chase (Pain Res, Ruin, Surge, BBQ, Friends to the End, etc. are popular picks), killers avoiding kicks on less important gens to save Pops for key gens, for regression to be important but only in certain situations (e.g. once you get into 3v1, only on gens with a lot of progress), for regression to be useful but not useful enough to pass up immediately starting a new chase, etc. It is one data point.
Even if you ran none of those perks, you would still barely kick gens as killer. Kicking gens is something you do when you have spare time. It's the lowest priority task. Getting a chase and applying map pressure is almost always higher priority. If you found a survivor working on a gen, you would almost always chase the survivor instead of kicking the gen.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811636#Comment_3811636
Pick rate of a single regression-related perk says absolutely nothing about the strength of base kit regression. And again, it is in the top third by pick rate, and those who choose it have above average kill rates. ~3% is an above average pick rate when there are 125ish perks and 4 perk slots.
The devs have said they are targeting around 60%. That is likely because the game is already there, has been there for years, and has been doing fine. They used to claim to target 50% even as kill rates were well in excess of that.
60% fundamentally tilts the playing field towards killers, and it is not particularly healthy for any PvP game to have one side win substantially more often than the other side. Queue time math may factor in, but if so, they should be making killer more fun to play in other ways than making the game killer sided. For example, by balancing the game such that the killer is all but forced to split hooks, while still performing well enough to average a 2k. If the average match were a three-hook tunnel and then camping someone during the EGC, that would be horrendous even if average kill rates were 50%. But if most of those 2ks were the 8-10 hook variety, I think both sides would feel pretty good about that result and matches would be consistently more fun for both sides. Targeting 62.5% in a game where tunneling is still easy enough to be meta is not healthy.
But again, all of this is irrelevant to base regression. If the devs want to buff killer, they should do so in such a way that solo queue players do not suffer way more than SWF players. Therefore they should not increase base regression speed.
Pick rate of a single regression-related perk says absolutely nothing about the strength of base kit regression.
Yes it does. It shows that even when you can kick multiple gens at once, it still isn't good. It's the only perk that relies completely on base kit kicking and regression.
Stats also show that killers only kick gens 3.5 times per match. The low number of kicks indicates that kicking gens is low priority.
And again, it is in the top third by pick rate, and those who choose it have above average kill rates. ~3% is an above average pick rate when there are 125ish perks and 4 perk slots.
It has a 2.75% pick rate, which means it is used once every 36 matches. It's a rarely used perk. You're getting too caught up in the rankings and not looking at the actual pick rate.
The devs have said they are targeting around 60%. That is likely because the game is already there, has been there for years, and has been doing fine. They used to claim to target 50% even as kill rates were well in excess of that.
Stop speculating about their target kill rate. I linked a video where a dev specifically said they are targeting a 62.5% kill rate. It's 62.5% not 60%.
60% fundamentally tilts the playing field towards killers, and it is not particularly healthy for any PvP game to have one side win substantially more often than the other side. Queue time math may factor in, but if so, they should be making killer more fun to play in other ways than making the game killer sided. For example, by balancing the game such that the killer is all but forced to split hooks, while still performing well enough to average a 2k. If the average match were a three-hook tunnel and then camping someone during the EGC, that would be horrendous even if average kill rates were 50%. But if most of those 2ks were the 8-10 hook variety, I think both sides would feel pretty good about that result and matches would be consistently more fun for both sides. Targeting 62.5% in a game where tunneling is still easy enough to be meta is not healthy.
Argue with the devs not me. Dev's target is 62.5%, and by this target, killers are underperforming.
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@SacWardsShouldBFree said:
What a load of tosh, most swfs like to abuse 3rd party voice chat to gain unfair advantages over solo players.
As a solo player I would love the game to be fairly balanced by introducing communications to the game, to hear and meet other people and should they be toxic to be able to mute them… like other game do! :)
To have an option in a game that can be turned on or off isn't a disadvantage, I would much prefer to have a fairer balanced game
There's a massive difference between talking with strangers and friends. Friends are like-minded individuals people enjoy being with. Strangers are randoms that can do anything. You're in for a surprise if you think voice chat will suddenly result in massive improvements in team cooperation. If you've ever played any other competitive team game, you would already know that telling your team to do stuff is mostly useless. Most of the time, they will just keep doing w/e they're doing and ignore you. This would probably be even more prevalent in DBD since most survivors are casuals playing for fun. Complaints about teammates and matchmaking still occur regularly in games with chat.
You can mute people in other games too. It doesn't change the fact that toxicity is high and a report system is needed.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811588#Comment_3811588
Oppression is in the upper third of killer perks by usage despite being locked behind a DLC character and killers who use it have an above average kill rate. This isn't really relevant to the question at hand, though.
The most important thing to keep in mind is that kill rates are above 50% at all skill levels, even against four-man SWF, with averages around 58%. The only reasons to increase base regression would be if survivors were overperforming or if low regression was not fun. Survivors are not overperforming and prolonging matches via extra regression is the opposite of what most would consider fun in the same way that the three-gen meta was. Therefore there is no reason to touch base regression speed. Besides, when you consider that increasing regression speed would hurt solo players much more than SWF, I don't think that's a good lever to pull regardless.
Perks like Pain Res could easily be nerfed and perks like Call of Brine could be buffed without global gameplay changes.
Oppression is in the niche category. Most of the perks at that pick rate are niche perks that only beneficial to some killers. The locked behind DLC argument isn't relevant when almost all perks are locked behind DLC characters. Kill rate isn't a good indicator of perk strength because we don't know how much kill rate it adds to the killer. Basically, the kill rate could just be high because the killers that use it already have high kill rate.
This isn't really relevant to the question at hand, though.
It's relevant because it shows how weak regression is.
The most important thing to keep in mind is that kill rates are above 50% at all skill levels, even against four-man SWF, with averages around 58%. The only reasons to increase base regression would be if survivors were overperforming or if low regression was not fun. Survivors are not overperforming and prolonging matches via extra regression is the opposite of what most would consider fun in the same way that the three-gen meta was. Therefore there is no reason to touch base regression speed. Besides, when you consider that increasing regression speed would hurt solo players much more than SWF, I don't think that's a good lever to pull regardless.
The stats actually support the argument regression should be buffed. The devs recently mentioned that their target kill rate is 62.5%. If it's at 58.5% (as shown from the Jan 2024 stats), killers are underperforming.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811605#Comment_3811605
I am over generalising Plague, SM and Cenobite have 4v1 tools.
Clown was sat at 58 percent which is equal to most killers on the official stats because his 1v1 is really good, especially on the newer smaller maps. I feel recent stats would be worse with the new map reworks too
I don't think he needs any help honestly, and definately not bringing back pinky finger, a rework however not what it used to be.
The help he needs doesn't really lie with his ability, more so the base game and how it affects multiple killers atmIf we're going by tier list, there are many high tier killers with no mobility and 4v1 tools, e.g. Huntress, Pyramid Head, and Chucky.
Clown was sat at 58 percent which is equal to most killers on the official stats because his 1v1 is really good, especially on the newer smaller maps. I feel recent stats would be worse with the new map reworks too
That's old data from January. Since then, many killer perks have been nerfed, e.g. Pain Res, Pop, and Deadlock.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811059#Comment_3811059
Pinky finger was nerfed due to his camp potential it was not nerfed unfairly, clowns would get a free hit at any hook it took no skill at all.
As for OP Clowns 1v1 is fine, it needs no help, it's his 4v1 which is the issue right now, as is every low mobility killers issue. Also is that Nightlight… these aren't official stats right? These are select games giving only part of the picture, unless it is from BHVR themselves.Nah, not every low mobility killer. Plenty of killer with no mobility and high kill rates, e.g. SM, Plague, and Cenobite.
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1arg1o4/developer_update_stats/
https://nightlight.gg/killers/viewer?sort=kill&shown=kill&start_days=28&compact=true
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Regression needs a buff in general. Regressing at 25% of the repair speed is too slow. For a gen to regress 30 sec of repair progress, it needs to regress for 120 seconds. No one uses Oppression because regression is so weak. Even when you get to regress multiple gens at once from a single gen kick, it still isn't worth it. That just shows how bad regression is.
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Regression needs a buff in general. Regressing at 25% of the repair speed is too slow. For a gen to regress 30 sec of repair progress, it needs to regress for 120 seconds. No one uses Oppression because regression is so weak. Even when you get to regress multiple gens at once from a single gen kick, it still isn't worth it. That just shows how bad regression is.
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Gen rush exists but it's mainly 3-4 SWFs that can execute it well, which is why you don't see it much. Gen rushing occurs when everything is done extremely efficiently by cutting out redundancy and time wastage. A SWF is needed to do this.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
his base-kit is stronger then before but he received two nerf that really were not needed. the first nerf is pinky finger. Clown has no rewarding direct bottle hits and he is a killer that entirely rely on fast chases. Pinky finger was easily only add-on for clown to speed up his chases. It got nerfed unfairly. One way to buff clown is buff pinky finger to have -2 bottles instead of -5 bottles.
The other nerf that clown received was that his purple tonic bottles no longer impair vision. i am not sure in how many cases this came into play but the change unnecessary nerfed him.
A low performing killer should not receive any negative changes. they should only receive positive changes. So i would say buff pinky finger and buff his purple tonic back to what it was. I also think it would be a good idea to maybe increase duration of his pink tonic by +1 second so that the blinding effect lasts longer.
I don't think clown is as bad as he was base-kit wise as before. He feels a lot better to play at base-kit. I think his low kill-rate is by product of his complexity. Despite having simple kit, he is fairely difficult to play. He is not that easy to pick up and it is easy to throw a lot bottles and not get much value out of his kit. As a result, i think he is not a good killer for new players/intermediate killer players. He is a killer that requires you be a experienced killer to gain value from his kit.
Sure he could use maybe few tweaks but i would not consider as large priority.
I don't think Clown is in a good spot if the Clown goat Arinad thinks DBD is in a terrible spot and barely plays DBD anymore. I've been watching his streams, and he barely streams nowadays and mostly plays Escape from Tarkov because he's sick of DBD's unfairness and unbalance. Though, he only thinks that way because he's playing one of the worst killers in the game. I would too if I mained Clown.
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Tunnelling is so easy to counter now with the extra 10 sec hook time and anti-tunnel perks. Skill issue if you get tunnelled frequently.
You should not NEED to run anti tunnel to have a playable experience.
This is false. Tunnelling occurs in less than 10% of games and there are 4 survivors, so odds of getting tunnelled is less than 2.5%. Tunnelling perks are optional.
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"I can't bully the killer"
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They should make it so Eruption proc doesn't count towards the regression counter. I hit the regression limit so fast with Eruption.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3809202#Comment_3809202
Counting draws as losses is straight up dishonest and makes most of your statistics misleading.
An average person seeing your table will think that a killer with "50% winrate" has a balanced count of losses and wins, when in reality 50% in your table means the killer wins a lot more than he loses - about 50% wins, and 35% losses. Most people would agree that if you win 50% and lose 35% of your matches, then your winrate is not 50% but more like ~60%, and that's why the common winrate definition counts draws as 0.5 wins to factor that.
Well, at least your stats show a problem with Ghostface, right? He has 40% winrate so surely he must lose the majority of his games, and he's underpowered? Well that's not true either, quite the opposite. In fact Nightlight shows Ghostface loses 43.9% of his games, draws 12.8%, and wins 43.3% - ie. an almost perfectly symmetric result. We see here very clearly what is the problem with your statistics - Ghostface has a balanced result, yet your stats don't reflect that because you show only the "43% wins" part, completely omitting draws. Common sense would be that when the result is symmetric, then winrate should be 50%. And, you guessed it, if we use the common winrate definition, that's what we obtain 43.3+12.8/2 = 50%.
Finally, one thing you "omit" to mention, is that with your definition, the survivor winrate is 35% - ie. much lower than every killer in your list, even Ghostface. So, you make it sound like Ghostface is severely underpowered and borderline unplayable with 40%. What should we conclude for the survivor role who has 35% then?
@DeBecker said:
Always another trial of the "dont trust any statistics you didnt personally faked". The win rate scenarios are always pretending there is only win or loss. But there isnt, there are still draws to be taken into account when you want to make something out of this scenario. Also in the kill rate you have to factor into the hatch escapes which are literally random outlier screwing the statistic in itself. I really hate those statistics, cause nothing good ever came out of them.
My post just said "3-4k is considered a win." No where did it say 2k is a loss. As I said, the only purpose of my post was to capture which killers win the most and least (by standard DBD definition). My post is accurate. You're getting salty over your own misinterpretation. Also, I already factored for 0-2ks. I showed the kill rate which factors for the whole kill distribution.
that's why the common winrate definition counts draws as 0.5 wins to factor that.
No one counts 2k as 0.5 wins in DBD. As I said, 2ks always end win streaks because they aren't wins. If people followed your logic, it would add 0.5 wins to the win streak.
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@ChaosWam said:
I'm still not a major believer in Nightlight as a stat tracker due to it being a user-submitted tracker and can consist of folks who only upload wins or losses. I know it's been pretty accurate in terms of perk pickrates, but I do need to wonder about stuff like killrate/winrates if not every single match is being tracked.
You're probably just saying that because Onryo was highly ranked. Onryo always had high kill rates regardless of any rework. For example, here are the official stats from Jan 2024 and Sep 2022.
@Jock21 said:
Not surprised about Spirit's placement, IW meta wrecks her.
Yep. Her kill rate declined significantly since IW was buffed in 8.1.0. See https://nightlight.gg/killers/Spirit
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
The only problem here is that this isn't a complete picture. For example, even a 50% killer win rate does not in any way mean that survivors are winning the other 50%.
Survivors are getting a win (0-1k) about 35% of the time. So this isn't capturing draws, nor is it indicating that killers are still winning considerably more than survivors on average.
People are reading 50% win rate and assuming that it's 50/50, and it's not.
On the top end, the higher kill rate killers are winning twice as often as the survivors they face, and that's actually a problem for a PVP game.
The goal is to just see who wins the most because I care about winning not getting a 2k. Kill rate, which is shown, is best for factoring for the whole kill distribution.
@crogers271 said:
Interestingly, many of the killers typically ranked high on tier lists have average or below average win rates.It's because these killers have powers that can be mastered, but also screwed up. It's like how Wraith starts off feeling like a broken S+ tier unstoppable killer for new players, but he really drops off the more play people have.
I agree for some of the killers but not Chucky, Wesker, PH, and Huntress. Their skill floor isn't high. Spirit probably plummeted due to the Iron Will buff. Nightlight's historic data shows her kill rate was much higher before Iron Will was buffed.
@Langweilig said:
From when are the behavior kill rate stats? The bottom kill rate stat is from behavior or?
All stats are from Nightlight on the day of the post.
@[Deleted User] said:
Nightlight's userbase represents a fraction of a fraction of the total userbase that plays the game. The stats are fun to look at but don't necessarily mean anything.
The killer rankings are comparable to the official stats released in Jan 2024. The killers that got buffed or nerfed changed rankings, but most of the ones that were untouched are similar in ranking. Meta shifts, perk changes, and inaccuracies are responsible for the other differences.
@Saiph said:
2K should be counted as 0.5 win, not as 0 win. Winrate formula is not N_wins / N_matches, it's N_wins + 0.5 N_draws / N_matches .
It shouldn't because a draw is neither a loss and a win. Counting it as 0.5 instead of 0 implies that the outcome was 0.5 in favour of the killer, which it wasn't. They also don't count as 0.5 wins in win streaks. They end the win streak.
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@PlutoBagel said:
It is shocking how Nightmare is generaly always seen in top killrate stats, but always seen among the of the worst killers.
Only solution for this that comes to my mind that in low MMR (casual or new survivors) any Killer that doesn't have simple power to understand they usualy end up dominating the charts. Maybe that's why they don't rush to buff Freddy since he is in pretty good spot in terms of killerate.
I agree. It's potentially because he's a noob stomper, which is how Onryō, Dredge, Cenobite, and Pig have always ranked high too despite being considered low to mid. His Dream Pallet addon is actually very effective against baby survivors.
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@Ohyakno said:
My complaint is that he doesn't feel like Dracula. He feels like an evil beast boy. Every time I play vs him it doesn't seem like he uses his bipedal form at all, just all wolf and bat.
That's because his Vampire form is a much worse Nemesis (like 20% of the strength of Nemesis's whip). At least his wolf form is similar in strength to Wesker's dash when off CD.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3806119#Comment_3806119
Well I dont stream or do videos anymore and my recording software is buggy atm
idd have to reinstall the entire thing to see if that helps. But would that help, would it help to see me 4K survivors?Also, if it's too easy to 4k, what's your current win streak on him?
I dont count winstreaks.
would it help to see me 4K survivors?
Yes.
I dont count winstreaks.
A rough guess is fine. Since it's so easy to 4k, you should be winning enough to say "at least x games".
Btw, are you good at Wesker? I feel like without Medusa's Hair + Lapis Lazuli, you're just playing Wesker but with a 20 sec cd.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3806104#Comment_3806104
without those yes.
Any stream or video? Legit every streamer I watch playing Dracula on a win streak uses at least one of these addons. Also, if it's too easy to 4k, what's your current win streak on him?
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@Emeal said:
And here I am finding it ridiculously easy to 4K every game with him and I think hes overpowered. Phew.
Without Medusa's Hair or Lapis Lazuli?
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It isn't the new target. They've already been targeting this kill rate in the past. It's just that the information has now been publicised. I think that target is fine considering how many survivors grief their team, suicide on hook, run meme builds, and prioritise Tome challenges.
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@Zuiphrode said:
I just want his addons to not be awful. No one uses anything but the range increasers because all the other stuff is either useless or too situational to be reliable.
They should just make range increase base kit.
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The Vecna stats used data from June. It's outdated af.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794177#Comment_3794177
Boy, I wish I had you as my Killer every time I was the last Survivor standing if the last one gets out every single time you close hatch. Because the last Survivor only has like a 5% chance of getting out through the gates once hatch is closed. What you are asking for is to remove that 5% chance and guarantee that you'll catch the last Survivor.
You're complaining that you don't want this hatch standoff, yet YOU are the one who creates it by sitting on top of the open hatch.
The counterplay is simple, as others have said. Close the hatch. Of course it's not guaranteed to work every single time, nor should it. You're asking the devs to fix a non-existent "problem" that you bring upon yourself when you don't have to.
And for the record? If all four Survivors are alive in endgame, and I happen to get hooked then, I will throw on hook and let the others escape. So your accusation of me being a "hypocrite" is a blatant lie.
As I've said, the only people this change affects are people abusing the strategy I described. By afking at the exit gate, the survivor made 0 attempt to look for the hatch, so they gave up their 50% chance to find hatch and escape. The survivor shouldn't have a high chance of escaping after hatch is closed. Hatch give survivors an escape when they use it, so the equivalent should be given to the killer when it is closed, which is a kill. Getting to play for exit gates after hatch is closed is a privilege. Hatch is also a privilege as a survivor that lost at 5 gens would have had 0 chance of escaping if not for hatch. When survivors complain about hatch and exit gates, all I see are entitled people complaining about their privilege. These are all 2nd chance mechanics that survivors did nothing to deserve. They were given simply for losing the game.
You're complaining that you don't want this hatch standoff, yet YOU are the one who creates it by sitting on top of the open hatch.
You're asking the devs to fix a non-existent "problem" that you bring upon yourself when you don't have to.
Nope. Survivor is equally guilty for hiding and abusing a strategy with no counter play. The survivor can give up any time just like me.
It's not a non-existent problem. I've had it happen to me several times in the past. I closed hatch, walked straight to the gate and it was already openned when I arrived. There was no counter play asides from sitting on the hatch.
The counterplay is simple, as others have said. Close the hatch. Of course it's not guaranteed to work every single time, nor should it.
A strategy that is guaranteed to fail if the survivor is using the strategy I described is not counter play.
And for the record? If all four Survivors are alive in endgame, and I happen to get hooked then, I will throw on hook and let the others escape. So your accusation of me being a "hypocrite" is a blatant lie.
Link your Twitch. Also, you're already shifting it to "if I get hooked". You're still trying to escape if you haven't been hooked, which is probably 75% of the time.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794229#Comment_3794229
But obviously, you’re closing it in order for this to be a problem. If you are not closing it, then what is the point of this thread?
It's like you don't read or something. The problem is that I need to stand on the hatch for 30+ minutes and the only other option is to take a large risk leaving the hatch. It's the same reason 3 genning and Skull Merchant was reworked: games take too long.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TNFBHY543ZSN/img-0719.jpeg
So because you have to choose your strategy, you think you should just get no way out basekit?
Since you want to give us all of the “what if’s” let’s go over a few more.
- The survivor might have a key.
- The survivor might have Left Behind
- The survivor might have a rainbow map
What you are asking for is to not have to make any choices. You’re telling us everything that “can” happen and you want the developers of the game to make it so that none of it can possibly happen. That is absolutely absurd.
If you get to the hatch and decide to stand on it and not close it, that is a choice. If you choose to close it immediately, that is a choice. You cannot predict whether the survivor is looking for the hatch or waiting at the exit gates and you’re asking for the game to hold your hand so that you don’t have to think about it at all.
The longer that you choose to stand on the hatch is what gives the survivor a guaranteed escape. It is a strategy and what you’re asking for is to make sure that you get a guaranteed final kill.
Whether you like the strategy or not, it is a strategy. Just like the counter play is either, Bring a perk to prevent it, or … prevent the hatch from spawning. If you’ve done neither one of those things, then you have to take the gamble.
So because you have to choose your strategy, you think you should just get no way out basekit?
What you are asking for is to not have to make any choices. You’re telling us everything that “can” happen and you want the developers of the game to make it so that none of it can possibly happen. That is absolutely absurd.
If you get to the hatch and decide to stand on it and not close it, that is a choice. If you choose to close it immediately, that is a choice. You cannot predict whether the survivor is looking for the hatch or waiting at the exit gates and you’re asking for the game to hold your hand so that you don’t have to think about it at all.
I already said that the reason is avoid a hatch stand off, which was patched out in the past. This has nothing to do with decision-making. I already made my decision, which is to sit on the hatch since it is objectively the best choice.
Since you want to give us all of the “what if’s” let’s go over a few more.
The survivor might have a key.
The survivor might have Left Behind
The survivor might have a rainbow map
I'm fine with that since they had to waste an item or perk for it, which disadvantages them. They may get hatch but they increased the chances of their team losing.
The longer that you choose to stand on the hatch is what gives the survivor a guaranteed escape.
False. Standing on hatch is a guaranteed kill. At the 1 hour mark, the game automatically ends with all 4 survivors dying.
It is a strategy and what you’re asking for is to make sure that you get a guaranteed final kill.
I've already asked @CrypticGirl and I'll again.
How is it a free guaranteed 4K? In almost every single match, the survivor attempts to open the gate in last 20%-30% of the end game timer and running to the gate takes more than 15 seconds most of the time, so the gate will already be unblocked by the time they even reach it. It literally has 0 impact unless the survivor is abusing the strategy I described.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794206#Comment_3794206
I can agree with killers on a lot of things, but on this you are just objectively wrong.
The hatch has been in the game long before only one survivor could use it. At one time you could get all four survivors out through the hatch with a key.
So no, there is no oversight, and the hatch was not designed in the way that you are suggesting.
Even when you read the little tips that pop up while a match is loading, it clearly reads.
If you are the last survivor remaining in the trial the hatch may be an OPTION to escape.
Option… not exclusive. There is nothing at all that suggests that a survivor must go for the hatch.
They have several options. If there is only one generator to complete, they can complete it. They can look for the hatch, or they can wait for the killer to close it.
Mix in the fact that there are several killers who are almost always going to find the hatch before a survivor because of map traversal, and yeah … waiting by the exit gates is definitely a smarter choice.
And if you are standing on the hatch for that long, and the survivor is not coming to it, then you already know what they are doing. You also already know where the hatch is so go chase them away from the door and then close the hatch.
The hatch has been in the game long before only one survivor could use it. At one time you could get all four survivors out through the hatch with a key.
How is this proof for your argument? They patched this out, so it's more like evidence against you. Also, something being in the game for a long time doesn't prove anything. 3 genning was in the game for 8 years but the devs admitted it was an oversight and patched it out this year.
So no, there is no oversight, and the hatch was not designed in the way that you are suggesting.
Even when you read the little tips that pop up while a match is loading, it clearly reads.
If you are the last survivor remaining in the trial the hatch may be an OPTION to escape.
Option… not exclusive. There is nothing at all that suggests that a survivor must go for the hatch.
They have several options. If there is only one generator to complete, they can complete it. They can look for the hatch, or they can wait for the killer to close it.
That doesn't contradict my argument at all. No where did I say that hatch was the only option for escape. I said that the intention was to aim for hatch first then exit gates after if hatch gets closed.
Mix in the fact that there are several killers who are almost always going to find the hatch before a survivor because of map traversal, and yeah … waiting by the exit gates is definitely a smarter choice.
The only killers that suit this category are Billy, Blight, and Wraith. The rest of the killer roster shouldn't need to be forced to hatch stand off just because of 3 killers.
And if you are standing on the hatch for that long, and the survivor is not coming to it, then you already know what they are doing. You also already know where the hatch is so go chase them away from the door and then close the hatch.
Leaving the hatch is a very unfavourable gamble for a killer:
- The survivor could be waiting at the hatch for you to leave.
- There are 2 exit gates, so if you guess incorrectly, that leaves a large window for the survivor to get hatch
- It can be hard to find the survivor at the exit gate depending on the map and where they hide. If they realise you are looking for them, they can adjust their strategy accordingly
- Even if you find them, they can still make it to hatch with injured speed boost and dropping all the pallets
Finally, it doesn't solve the hatch stand off problem because I still have to sit on hatch for at least 10 minutes to confirm that they aren't coming out.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794203#Comment_3794203
It’s not overpowered. There are two exit gates, and a hatch. Even if you close the hatch, you have to choose the correct exit gate. This is designed this way to give the last survivor a chance. That is why there is a hatch. You have to choose. Hatch or gates.
If you want to not have to choose, you’ll need to use a perk slot for that.
You didn't understand my post. In the scenario I described, closing the hatch is a guaranteed escape for the survivor. It doesn't matter which gate I choose to check because they can open it before I reach any of them. This is not by design at all. The devs intended for the killer and survivor to look for hatch and only play for exit gates once hatch is closed. This is how the vast majority of games play out. The camping the exit gate strategy is an oversight by the devs not realising it's a guaranteed escape.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794159#Comment_3794159
There actually is counter play to that strategy. And if you encounter it so frequently, it should be obvious.
Bring No Way Out and/or Remember Me. That will give you the exact thing that you’re looking for whenever this strategy is employed.
Unnerf Ultimate Weapon because you can bring Calm Spirit
Unnerf Pain Res because you can bring Sabo
Unnerf Hex Ruin and NOED because you can bring all the anti-totem perks or learn to land skill checks
Unnerf hook camping because you can bring Reassurance
I shouldn't have to bring specific perks to counter an unfair and overpowered strategy. It should be nerfed like all the other overpowered stuff.
@Ilikechips said:
What happened? Missed out on an easily obtainable 4k? 60% kill rate isn't enough for you, need more?
I guess I'll just sit on the hatch for 30 minutes then if you want it that way.
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@Nightram said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794182#Comment_3794182
It won't blind the killer.
If you have ever used lightborn. When they try to flash your eyes, but dosen't work. For me it isn't distracting at all. But for other it could be.
Killers will be able to see where survivors are from futher away from the map, just seeing beams flashing around xD
But it is okay to agree to disagree. Everything can be used to BM. I appreciate your worry for bad manners in game.
I just wanted to share this idea. It's okay to not like it. Or just worry about things to be abused.
I see both positive sides and negative. But the negative won't harm with this.
You've never heard of clicking BM? Survivors don't try to blind the killer when they are BMing. They just spam the flashlight to annoy killers.
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@dknb said:
Looking for the hatch,
or wait at the gate for the Killer to close the hatch.
It's a gamble. It's a mind game.
If I was the killer. I am praise the survivor who made it escape.No, it isn't. The killer can't waste time checking every inch of the exit gate for someone hiding and there are 2 exit gates to check. Even if the killer finds the survivor, they can still escape if they find hatch. It's an extremely favoured scenario for the survivor. Also, it takes no skill to afk at the exit gate. Doesn't deserve praise at all.
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@Nightram said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794157#Comment_3794157
So then, no blinding other survivors. Noted✏️📜
I mean it will be used to BM killers. It's basically an item that allows survivors to click at killers forever.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794159#Comment_3794159
And like I said, you've already won the game at that point anyway. Losing the last Survivor isn't the end of the world. No one should be guaranteed a free 4k like that.
Stop with your boogus "I already won the game" at 3k argument. By your logic, survivors should not try to get a 4-man escape and the last survivor should suicide/give up instead of escaping because they "already won the game". If I check your stream, I doubt you consistently give the killer a free kill when your team will get a 4-man escape, making you a hypocrite.
How is it a free guaranteed 4K? In almost every single match, the survivor attempts to open the gate in last 20%-30% of the end game timer and running to the gate takes more than 15 seconds most of the time, so the gate will already be unblocked by the time they even reach it. It literally has 0 impact unless the survivor is abusing the strategy I described.