adsads123123123123
adsads123123123123
About
- Username
- adsads123123123123
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761948#Comment_3761948
You can’t hold the ability button down the entire game, because you can only enter a biopod if you go from “the button not being pressed” to “tapping or holding the button”.
As in, you can’t hold down the button, then turn your camera towards a biopod while the button is already being held down. That’s not how button inputs work in this game.
Yes. I corrected myself in the previous comment.
@lettuchia said:
Auto aim on biopods shouldn't be an option whatsoever.
That's a different topic that is irrelevant to this thread.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761948#Comment_3761948
Wait, how do you expect it to work?
You control biopod with Ctrl, right? So if you hold Ctrl you get auto aim, if you tap you get it manually.
Basically exactly same as M1 attack/lunge. You can't really hold it in advance, no?
It seems I misinterpreted how it will work, but the point still stands that it has no impact on balance and delay. It seems that the way it will work is that it will auto aim if you are still holding the ability button after switching to a camera and the time to switch to a camera will not change. The reason why it does not impact balance and delay is that you won't exit a Biopod until you see and analyse what is happening on the screen. The median human reaction time is 273 ms. After adding in time to analyse what is happening, time spent on a camera increases to 500+ ms. This means that tapping or holding the ability button makes no difference in delay since you will at minimum spend 500 ms on the camera.
-
Twins is one of my mains, and Twins takes almost no skill to play. Play another killer if you want a challenge.
-
@korrok said:
I prefer it this way, so the 0,2 delay is not baked on the basekit. This also makes it so you can't quickly swap between cameras in a fraction of a second so autoaim can check their full FoV for survivors. That was kinda busted.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761773#Comment_3761773
Making people hold the button for auto-aim allows BHVR to balance auto aim without punishing killers that want to use manual mode.
Requiring killers to hold a button to use manual mode, adds a delay for them to use manual mode, which would be a nerf for manual mode. It’s better for the delay to exist for auto-aim, so that BHVR could easily adjust the delay time if auto-aim turns out to be too powerful and needs a bit of a nerf.
It has no impact on balance or delay because if you hold the ability button down the entire game, it will always auto aim. Since the button is always down, no pressing is required, so there is no delay with pressing or input.
-
@MikhailVictor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761829#Comment_3761829
If you just permanently hold the ability button, there is no delay
That makes 0 sense.
My argument is I don't want people like you to make bhvr do skull merchant 4.0 where you win by pressing m2. If you're too lazy to orient the cameras the way you expect survivors to be in advance - that's on you. Still, we're getting an option for that.
Your entire argument is "auto aim is strictly better than manual". Maybe they should make unknown's uvx home in on survivors automatically? This would be strictly better than manual aiming.
In fact, when bhvr goes through with the autoaim option, I'd like them to add a short warning to the biopod for survivors that it's about to be controlled by the killer.
What doesn't make sense? You are complaining about input delay. If you hold the ability button down throughout the entire match, there is no input delay because the button is already down.
My argument is I don't want people like you to make bhvr do skull merchant 4.0 where you win by pressing m2. If you're too lazy to orient the cameras the way you expect survivors to be in advance - that's on you. Still, we're getting an option for that.
Making auto aim the default behaviour has 0 impact on skill. The only difference is that I have to hold the ability button down to get auto aim.
Your entire argument is "auto aim is strictly better than manual". Maybe they should make unknown's uvx home in on survivors automatically? This would be strictly better than manual aiming.
No it isn't. My argument is that 99% of people will only use auto aim and never manual aim, so auto aim should be the default behaviour. Auto aim or manual aim being the default behaviour has 0 impact on skill and balance. It's purely a quality of life aspect. The same can't be said for your Unknown example.
-
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761829#Comment_3761829
My argument would be there should be delay if you skip manual aiming. It makes sense for me..
That is irrelevant to my suggestion. Your suggestion is about balancing auto aim while my suggestion is about quality of life, which is negatively impacted by constantly pressing the ability button.
-
@MikhailVictor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761727#Comment_3761727
I'm a PC player and I would almost never use manual aim. Auto aim is better than manual aim in 99% of scenarios. It removes any delay in finding the survivor, which was why they nerfed the Slipstream tag time, and allows you to rapidly cycle through cameras and automatically find survivors.
I'm PC too and i'd rather have manual aim by default. It makes no sense to have easier option require less input time. It'll probably take 0.2s of holding the button to enter auto aim mode. With current 0.6s time to tag someone, the effective time to tag would be 0.8s - the same as on ptb. Idk what you're complaining about here, really. I've played new larry and it's clear they've slightly overbuffed him already. If you want braindead gameplay with no input from the player - you have skull merchant.
Your only argument against the default being auto aim is the potential extra input delay. If you just permanently hold the ability button, there is no delay. Therefore, you have no argument.
-
@MikhailVictor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3761727#Comment_3761727
I'm a PC player and I would almost never use manual aim. Auto aim is better than manual aim in 99% of scenarios. It removes any delay in finding the survivor, which was why they nerfed the Slipstream tag time, and allows you to rapidly cycle through cameras and automatically find survivors.
I'm PC too and i'd rather have manual aim by default. It makes no sense to have easier option require less input time. It'll probably take 0.2s of holding the button to enter auto aim mode. With current 0.6s time to tag someone, the effective time to tag would be 0.8s - the same as on ptb. Idk what you're complaining about here, really. I've played new larry and it's clear they've slightly overbuffed him already. If you want braindead gameplay with no input from the player - you have skull merchant.
Making people hold the ability button takes no skill. It just inconveniences people.
Asides from base kit Soma (at 3%), Singularity has barely changed. The vast majority of the changes were quality of life and making it easier to play him rather than buffs.
-
@MikhailVictor said:
Then they'd have to bring back tagging time nerf (from 0.6s to 0.8s) and holding the button to enter manual aim mode would increase the effective time to tag someone even further. Big no-no.
99% of Singularity players will only use auto aim and never manual aim because it's strictly better than manually aiming.
99% of controller players maybe, which is probably less than half of total larry players.
holding the button to enter manual aim mode would increase the effective time to tag someone even further. Big no-no.
So inconvenience 99% of people just for the 1% who want to manually aim?
99% of controller players maybe, which is probably less than half of total larry players.
I'm a PC player and I would almost never use manual aim. Auto aim is better than manual aim in 99% of scenarios. It removes any delay in finding the survivor, which was why they nerfed the Slipstream tag time, and allows you to rapidly cycle through cameras and automatically find survivors.
-
How is it a free hit if you avoided it the first time?
-
WA is currently the only Killer aura-reading perk that has no cooldown or a timer.
False:
- A Nurse's Calling
- Deerstalker
- Discordance
- Hex: Undying
Those Youtube videos mean nothing. There are Youtube videos for every perk saying they are "op" for clickbait. That Hag video is the worst example since aura reading is useless on Hag.
-
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3759105#Comment_3759105
Well probably it'd be different for most people, I'm too used to pressing CTRL with pinky finger multiple times
Just pressing control isn't that bad but control + M2 causes shoulder strain in mouse arm.
-
@Neaxolotl said:
Is it really an inconvenience tho, I don't think I'll be annoyed that much in holding or not
It depends on where your ability button is located. If it's on the default Control key, it's a massive inconvenience. Pressing the control key with the pinkie finger 20+ times per match gets tiring fast. For controller, cycling through cameras will also be annoying.
Also, in the rush of the moment, you may accidentaly not click the auto aim.
-
Worst update over the past few years.
-
@BlightedDolphin said:
Wouldn't this just make Freddy's lullaby non-existent and him completely silent to sleeping survivors because sleeping survivors are Oblivious?
Victor also doesn't gain access to any of your perks so this wouldn't effect him (and honestly rightfully so since a silent Victor would be too strong). I also don't think Huntress really needs a buff right now.
Trickster doesn't even need a lullaby. If they want him to be heard from further away then just give him a larger terror radius like Wesker and then he can use stealth perks fine.
Wouldn't this just make Freddy's lullaby non-existent and him completely silent to sleeping survivors because sleeping survivors are Oblivious?
Forgot about that, but it's a probably a buff Freddy should get considering how bad he is.
I also don't think Huntress really needs a buff right now.
I don't think stealth Huntress will be strong. I think it will more of a "for fun" build for trolling survivors. Stealth perks are unpopular in general.
-
Iri 1 is completely meaningless now that they removed depiping. Just means that they played enough matches that month to hit Iri 1.
-
Your suggestions would have less than a 5% impact on the overall skill required to play the game. Also, Lightburn was one of the worst mechanics ever and should never be reintroduced.
-
@TieBreaker said:
I think people don't like her because she's literally a rotting husk. Poor Hag. Modern beauty standards haven't been kind to her.
#CorpseIsBeautiful
Nemesis, Onryo, Spirit, and Plague 🤔
-
You realize matches where killers DC, which results in an instant 4-man escape, are also excluded? Killers generally DC when they are losing, getting bullied or looped too hard. Survivor DCs are offset by killer DCs.
Suicide on hook is also included, which inflates the kill rate.
-
@VomitMommy said:
Main issue are spawns. Totem spawns are just terrible, the people who designed it had to be terrible at hide and seek growing up...
Totems next to generators, fully in open visible from half of the map etc.
@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756375#Comment_3756375
This. This is 90% of the problem right here. If you get a map like Midwich or Swamp or the Game or Lery's, you'll get hex value because your bones have Sneak 100 and even survivors who know all the spots will have to go on a scavenger hunt to find them. If you get a map like Ormond or MacMillan or Autohaven, your bones are gone before the camera's finished rotating because they're sitting across from gens when they're not out in the open sunbathing.
Predominant map design used to be totems spawned in lol obvious places, then they started getting sneakier for a while, and now they're back to lol obvious spots on the latest maps and reworks. Which is unfortunate. I'm hoping Midwich's rework doesn't ruin this, because RPD's rework changed several of its totem spots to be less sneaky.
Fixing totems to not spawn in the open or next to gens isn't enough. Many of these extremely fast totem cleanses occur when the survivors spawn right next to the totem. If the survivors didn't spawn there, they would be in a hidden location far from gens. Totems need to be concealed at the start of the match to fix this.
-
@Neaxolotl said:
I think hexes should simply have a power relative to remaining totem counts instead, so newer players don't get hurts as much as now while long term players won't demolish them as fast as now
Some totems have to be reworked completely though
That's far too complex and would limit the design of Hex perks.
-
@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756641#Comment_3756641
Hag's power is way better than Trapper's, though. It's much harder to avoid in chase, it's harder to see, she always has it on hand and doesn't have to collect them, she has more of them, there's no RNG involved, she can use it for map mobility as well as hits and instantly return to a hook or gen.
The only things Trapper has over Hag, besides being a 115, is that he can get a down on a healthy survivor if they walk into his traps while he's close, and if they're not close (which is an issue he and Hag both share), they'll lose a health state. In her net, though, Hag is much deadlier than Trapper and making her a 115 would only amplify that.
I don't think it's right to say she chases as an M1 killer because Hag has zoning and loop denial. She puts down a trap, you have to leave. Trapper can do this too, but he can only carry two traps at a time; Hag can keep doing it even when she's run out of traps. And because of her anti-loop, holding W away from her net, out in the open, is often the survivor's best bet - but buffing her to 115 removes that. She's meant to catch up to you by you running into another one of her traps. If she can chase normally and turn every relevant tile into a nope zone, she'd be pretty busted.
Map size is a problem for every setup killer, it's just how they work. They're meant to give up part of the map and focus on a smaller area.
And because of her anti-loop, holding W away from her net, out in the open, is often the survivor's best bet - but buffing her to 115 removes that. She's meant to catch up to you by you running into another one of her traps. If she can chase normally and turn every relevant tile into a nope zone, she'd be pretty busted.
You are drastically overrating the benefit of 115. 110 and 115 only makes a difference when running a loop in some rare instances, and it makes virtually no difference when running in the open (away from a loop). When running across the entire map, the difference between 110 and 115 was less than 1 second. See
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R0gTNDSI0s -
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756642#Comment_3756642
in practice, most trapper set traps to corral survivors into a trap. it is very rare that trapper places traps to get downs from half across the map. This play-style. Honing stone is add-on that puts survivor into dying state from half across the map but this is not viable at all vs swf because…. they'll just save each other. Even in soloq is smart enough to save survivors in traps. it is also gimmicky and very very random. I am sure there is some big brain casual trapper that runs honing stone and place traps in the middle of nowhere to get random downs but like…. most trapper that i play against put traps on loops.
I'd say exposed on hag would in practice be a better trapper. you don't need pick up traps. they auto-refresh and you have… more of them? assuming you hit them with m1…. it is same thing.
I'm comparing trapping in a loop with Hag and Trapper not across the map. If a survivor steps on a Trapper trap in a loop, it's an instant down because Trapper just walks to them and picks them up. If a survivor steps on a Hag trap, Hag still has to chase them as a M1 killer to down them. Trapper traps are clearly better.
I'd say exposed on hag would in practice be a better trapper. you don't need pick up traps. they auto-refresh and you have… more of them? assuming you hit them with m1…. it is same thing.
I think if you're going with the exposed option, comparing them to Myers and Ghost Face is also applicable. Both of these killers can just stare at the survivor to get exposed and have other benefits, e.g. Undetectable and longer lunge. Exposed Hag is clearly worse since her only benefit over them is an extra 2.5% ms. Skull Mechant is also arguably relevant since her Drones are similar to traps, and SM is obviously much better.
-
@lettuchia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756646#Comment_3756646
I don't know where you're getting this info from but even then, the solution is to just buff her, not in a way that changes her identity unnecessarily
I checked for Hag main streamers and all of them have either quit, moved on to killer variety or became a variety gamer.
-
@lettuchia said:
We don't need to make the developers pander to majority of the community/players with unoriginal taste even more than they already do
With her low pick rate, I don't think she is appealing to anyone. There are extremely few people that exclusively main Hag. Hag mains still play Hag less than 50% of the time, which shows that even Hag mains get bored of her.
-
@Iron_Cutlass said:
This might be an unpopular opinion but Hag is fine.
Hag is not meant to be a high octane chase Killer, nor are they meant to be S-tier either. Hag is relatively fine, they do have strengths and weaknesses but if you actually know how to play Hag you can come out on top against most teams youll play against.
Giving Hag 115 and faster Trap setting speed won't turn her into a high octane chase killer. Trapper is already 115 (faster with the speed boost) and has similar trap setting times with addons, and he is one of the worst killers in the game and by no means a "high octane chase killer".
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756556#Comment_3756556
which is why you pre-set traps like your playing trapper. i'd honestly just buff her traps to give exposed for 30 seconds if they want to make this actual build. Of course this makes trapper look terrible but whatever.
Not really. It would still be worse than Trapper since stepping on a Trapper trap is an instant down (injury at minimum) whereas Hag still needs to chase them for the hit. Trapper also gets speed boost from setting traps.
-
@Laluzi said:
I like Hag the way she is. She's one of the rare killers who doesn't play exactly like the standard formula with a slightly different gimmick and I'd be sad to lose that.
Not that I'd oppose faster setting time, but making her a 115 would be pretty oppressive given her level of map control. I only find problems playing her against full SWF, because then they start calling out and dismantling your traps and you can't make plays.
Only buffing her to 115 would make minimal difference since she is still chasing as a m1 killer. You should remember that Trapper is already 115 and even faster with the speed boost.
Large maps are a major issue. Play on Badham or Borgo and you will immediately understand.
-
@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756375#Comment_3756375
This. This is 90% of the problem right here. If you get a map like Midwich or Swamp or the Game or Lery's, you'll get hex value because your bones have Sneak 100 and even survivors who know all the spots will have to go on a scavenger hunt to find them. If you get a map like Ormond or MacMillan or Autohaven, your bones are gone before the camera's finished rotating because they're sitting across from gens when they're not out in the open sunbathing.
Predominant map design used to be totems spawned in lol obvious places, then they started getting sneakier for a while, and now they're back to lol obvious spots on the latest maps and reworks. Which is unfortunate. I'm hoping Midwich's rework doesn't ruin this, because RPD's rework changed several of its totem spots to be less sneaky.
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756472#Comment_3756472
I like Leri's totems. They definitely have a pattern and it's possible to find it, but on many spawns you have to actually look for the totem. Except the one in entrance to main room...
I just don't believe there should be a totem spawn you can see from working on generator or more than 5 meters.
And there definitely shouldn't be so many guaranteed spawns.
This meme describes Hex perks perfectly.
-
@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756352#Comment_3756352
more traps would be nice. having more chase power to allow her to chase people the normal way is a ridiculous idea.
Not really. Trapper can somewhat chase people, but he's still one of the worst killers in the game.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756352#Comment_3756352
she has chase power. it is same power that knight has. You drop guard at loop, the survivor runs away. You draw a hag trap at a loop, the survivor run away. They run to corner of the map, you draw a trap in the loop, If they don't push into the trap → hit, if they trigger the trap →hit.
It is just bad and inefficient. Hag as chase killer is worse artist and worse knight and both of those killers are 4.6 m/s.
Waterlogged shoe hag is like a better m1 freddy. worse traps, no tp but has better movement speed.
she has chase power.
I say she has no chase because it's so bad for chase that's it's effectively no chase power.
It is just bad and inefficient. Hag as chase killer is worse artist and worse knight and both of those killers are 4.6 m/s.
Agreed.
Waterlogged shoe hag is like a better m1 freddy. worse traps, no tp but has better movement speed.
Yep, but the extra 2.5% ms is practically negligible. It's worth mentioning that Waterlogged Shoe is much worse than Freddy since Hag can only place traps where she is standing. This is extremely bad because she has to be standing far away from the pallet to get enough slow down duration to hit before the survivor reaches the pallet. The problem is that survivors will be standing at the pallet if she does this, so they can just pre-drop or run away.
-
@Toystory3Monkey said:
Hag is unpopular because her playstyle is not conventionally fun.
There's nothing wrong with it. There should be a killer appealing to everyone, not that every killer should be appeal to everyone.
She is a pretty fun and decently strong killer if you understand how to use her and her area denial web-setting gameplay appeals to you. She doesn't need strong chase because that's not how she wins games.
Hag has been one of my mains for years, and I still think she needs chase power. For experienced Hag players, large maps are a major issue due to the map being too big to effectively create a web. The only ways to fix this are to give her many more traps or chase power, so she can chase properly on large maps.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756272#Comment_3756272
did you consider playing it like trapper where you set traps at loops and m1? when the survivor goes around loop, the trap triggers and you hit them due to speed difference? that is my guess for how they want you to play chase hag.
Yes. Getting hits with Clown is already very close, and Clown has higher speed boost and higher slow. Obviously Hag who has lower speed (compared to yellow bottle) and lower slow will perform much worse.
-
@GolbezGarlandGabrant said:
But according to those numbers her kill rate is right where the devs want it.
Hag isn't a chase killer. Asking for her to be 115 just sounds like a want for less reliance on building a web of traps and using them to anti-loop…basically a Trapper clone.
A rework doesn't necessarily have to be a buff. Also, the 60% kill rate is somewhat inflated because it's from the few Hag mains playing her rather than the average player.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
waterlog shoe hag.
Suffers from the same problem I described:
- you set trap
- survivor runs to next loop immediately
- repeat
Waterlogged Shoe Hag is also just a worse Clown.
-
Original Iri Tape was busted, but I think she needs some variant of that where her CD is partially reduced when she hits or hooks survivors. An alternative is to speed up her TV cooldown for every survivor holding a Tape, which adds risk to holding Tapes. 70 sec TV cooldown is too long and leaves her without mobility and ability to spread Condemn for too long.
-
@Predated said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752043#Comment_3752043
Like killers already dont do that by going for 8 hooks
There's a big difference. Letting survivors escape is a loss for killer whereas bleeding out is a win but doesn't increase MMR.
-
I think I've spent enough time on this discussion and will wrap it up here. I don't care much about the effectiveness of tunnelling or counterplay debate. That's a whole other topic.
At the end of the day, how you define tunnelling only affects you. You can define tunnelling as 2 hooks in a row and get salty about being tunneled every game, or you could define tunnelling as being heavily targeted by the killer, which is how most people define tunnelling. If you go by the 2nd definition, you can enjoy the game knowing that over 90% of killers don't try to tunnel you. If you go by the 1st definition, you'll get bitter, grow to hate the game, and eventually quit, like Pulsar has.
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754524#Comment_3754524
Oh wow!
A comp player can win more games than the average player.
Look, I don't think you're arguing in good faith at all. I've tried to be patient and play by your rules, but you've routinely made me regret my decision. Honestly, I feel pretty gaslit after you asked me to record my games, asked me for my definition and then just said, "I don't agree so that doesn't count"
A comp player can win more games than the average player.
Hens isn't a comp player. He has occasionally participated in tournaments for fun but mainly plays the role of host or commentator.
Look, I don't think you're arguing in good faith at all. I've tried to be patient and play by your rules, but you've routinely made me regret my decision. Honestly, I feel pretty gaslit after you asked me to record my games, asked me for my definition and then just said, "I don't agree so that doesn't count"
You've already admited to inaccuracies in your definition. For example, in the Huntress game, you said that the Huntress clearly wasn't tunnelling when she was according to your 2 hook definition. You also said that you were tunnelled in 4/7 matches when there were 6 matches according to your definition, so you didn't consider 1 other match as tunnelling. If you've already admitted to inaccuracies, why are you still sticking to your inaccurate definition? Why aren't we making corrections to fix the inaccuracies? You were quick to point out flaws in my definition, but it's perfectly fine when your definition is inaccurate?
Your definition of tunnel ignores Survivor input.
Killer hooks 1-1-3-1. 3 goes down bodyblocking for 1. Tunneling via your definition? No. Tunneling tho? Yup. There are issues with your definition.
asked me for my definition and then just said, "I don't agree so that doesn't count"
If you give an inaccurate definition, of course I'm going to disagree with you, and it isn't just me disagreeing with you at this point. It's seemingly 97% of people, according to Scott's poll.
If you use a definition that causes many false positives, of course you are going to see tunnelling extremely frequently. If I define bullying as survivors looping me, then I also get "bullied" every match. That's essentially the equivalent of what you're doing.
-
@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754607#Comment_3754607
Can you explain what's happening here then? If it's impossible to counterplay, why are 3-4 survivors escaping when the killer is hard tunnelling?
For starters, he's coming into the match with the intention of getting tunneled and bringing a build specifically designed to counter it. Not everyone wants to play that way, nor should they.
The comment said it was impossible to counter. If a build can be ran to counter it, it is not impossible. Also, the build was only a small reason for why Hens did so well. It was clearly because Hens was far more skilled than the killer. If an average survivor used the same build as Hens and tried the same strategy, they would have been downed in a fraction of the time Hens ran the killer.
-
@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754524#Comment_3754524
Unfortunately, it's not as simple as "being better at the game." Even if you loop the Killer well, it all hinges on how fast your teammates can get the gens done. In most cases, they won't. Many will try to protect the person being tunneled, which only slows down gen progress and delays the inevitable (that being the death of the person being tunneled).
But whatever the case, looping the Killer well doesn't make being tunneled any more fun.
Shouldn't your argument apply to Hen's matches since he's playing solo queue as well though? He managed to boost his team's escape rate by 50%, which is very significant.
I believe the playing better argument is still applicable since if your team played better, the gens would have been done. If you loop the killer for 20 minutes and your team doesn't finish the gens, it's more reasonable to blame your team at that point.
@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754548#Comment_3754548
That weighs on your teammates, though. If you're being chased and looping the Killer, and teammates aren't doing gens, you lose, no matter how good you are at the game.
That isn't a problem specific to tunnelling. If the killer isn't tunnelling and your team doesn't do gens, you would have the same problem.
@mecca said:
Saying tunneling doesn't happen much is like saying cheaters do not cheat much.
At the end of the day regardless, both acts is horrible to play with. Tunneling is essentially an exploit of game design for a huge tactical advantage. It's easy for killer to tunnel but impossible to counterplay it.
Saying tunneling doesn't happen much is like saying cheaters do not cheat much.
Cheaters are extremely rare though? They probably occur once every 500-1000 matches.
Tunneling is essentially an exploit of game design for a huge tactical advantage
It isn't an exploit. BHVR has already acknowledged tunnelling as a legitimate strategy and has no intention of treating it as an exploit.
It's easy for killer to tunnel but impossible to counterplay it.
Can you explain what's happening here then? If it's impossible to counterplay, why are 3-4 survivors escaping when the killer is hard tunnelling?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYmnejC2yZQ -
I just realised that there is somewhat of an official definition to tunnelling. In patch 4.6.0, BHVR changed Decisive Strike to deactivate after performing Conspicuous Actions. Their logic at the time was that the killer was no longer tunnelling if the survivor was progressing the game, so DS should deactivate. Most anti-tunnel perks also deactivate after 60 seconds. Going by this logic, BHVR would consider it as no longer tunnelling if a survivor performs a Conspicuous Action or a long time elapses after the survivor is unhooked. This doesn't define tunnelling but it shows scenarios in which BHVR thinks it's no longer tunnelling.
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754377#Comment_3754377
With that clarification, I find that to be lacking.
Most Killers tunnel simply because it's easy and effective. Getting someone out ASAP is always the winning move, and it's extremely difficult to counter.
Tunnelling isn't extremely difficult to counter. The solution is simply being better at the game. Good survivors actually want the killer to tunnel them, so they can waste all of the killer's time and allow their team to work on gens uninterrupted. This is how Hens carries his solo queue games and escapes far more than the average solo queue player. See
https://youtu.be/dYmnejC2yZQ?si=tRrxKl7Kv6JBNlvA https://youtu.be/Je3AQGuG2C8?si=HhXiuyR0Kb4_tGcQ -
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754412#Comment_3754412
18/60,000,000 is not enough to proclaim your absolute correctness lol.
Why do you think your definition from 1/60,000,000 is the absolute truth then?
Also, Scott Jund polled people on Twitter and 97% of people agreed that tunnelling was going after the same player until they died, so even in today terms, tunnelling shares the same definition from 2016-2018.
https://youtu.be/HI7FFpVpgRY?t=30Also, if you have ever seen sample sizes from surveys, only 1000-2000 people are needed to be representative of the American population (333M). See
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754272#Comment_3754272
With out having the numbers, i would guess that low MMR is more than 10% (based of some of the complaints i see on the forum)
But that being said, i still think that having only the top 10% and a total score with the top 10% included as 2 separate stats as comparison, gives an odd comparison model.
There is no official definition for low mmr, but based on an official response from BHVR, high mmr is top 10%, so the most likely conclusion is that low mmr is bottom 10%.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754402#Comment_3754402
No, but they did not mention anything about ignoring others or killing the Survivor. In fact, a couple specifically mentioned it being hooking a Survivor twice in a row with no one else being downed/hooked between.
And then many more were the typical comments I'd expect from that time. "Those filthy Survivors use DS, insta, BNP etc etc and expect us to play nice grrrrrr"
or something to that effect.
Meh. Focusing mostly on a single survivor is the general definition. If their definitions are in line with that, that's good enough for me.
There is nothing in the world where people 100% agree on, so we have to look at majority opinion. If 2 people disagree but 18 people agree, the definition from the 18 people is the general consensus.
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754296#Comment_3754296
I am gonna be real with you, we are not gonna come to a resolution since I know the forums and reddit were even more unpopular and non-representative of the player-base back then.
There's also people in those same threads disputing that definition.
The term "tunnelling" is exclusive to DBD, so if people mentioned tunnelling in a chat lobby in 2016, people would have had no idea what they were talking about. To learn about what tunnelling is, they had to either learn it from a content creator, which is unlikely since there were very few back then, Googling it or online discussion. If they learnt about it from Googling or online discussion, they would have seen those threads I linked.
There's also people in those same threads disputing that definition.
Such as? Were their definitions very different from "focusing mostly on a single survivor"?
-
@SunaIIanu said:
I wouldn't be surprised if tunneling is more common in low mmr, tracking an injured survivor is a lot easier than tracking a healthy surv. Also newer players might not have interacted with the community enough to know that those strategies are unpopular. I'm pretty sure that camping and facecamping was more common in low mmr aswell, for similar reasons. I would guess that I'm average mmr and face camping was rare in my experience, but the Devs still felt that the anti face camp mechanic was necessary (I don't mind it, it just has no impact in most of my matches).
Others have already said it, but tunneling has no dictionary entry, it will always be subjective (just like genrushing, if you look at the recent post about it). And as someone who has been playing since late 2017, no the definition was never unanimous, people argued about it back than aswell.
Personally, I define tunneling as intentionally chasing (and hooking if possible) someone right after they have been unhooked. So I would also call it tunneling if a Killer stops "tunneling" after the second hook, but in my experience that isn't a common experience. More common is leaving a survivor after the first hook but tunneling after the second, because by then gens have popped and the Killer wants to get a kill. And that is understandable, but can still be frustrating If you're the survivor in that situation.
I find it curious that you like to tunnel but try to convince people that tunneling isn't a problem. Scared your winning strategy could be nerfed?
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754272#Comment_3754272
Once again, as a relatively old player, tunneling never had an agreed upon definition. As we've seen, it's highly subjective.
One Urban Dictionary post does not a definition make.
I've checked several threads from 2016-2018, and most people agreed that tunnelling was exclusively chasing one person (ignoring everyone else), usually until they died. Tunnel vision was mentioned several times. If you want to disprove me, show me threads from 2016-2018 where this wasn't the majority definition.
https://new.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/8ebbkm/what_is_tunneling/
-
@MaddieMage said:
I really wish people would stop acting like this Scott Jund dudes “experiments” are reliable and unbiased, as if he’s an authority. I went back and forth about this exact experiment in another thread where I pointed out how flawed his data was. This is just for people who already have decided what they want to believe.
If tunneling were not such a sure fire strategy to win, people wouldn’t do it.
If tunneling were not such a sure fire strategy to win, people wouldn’t do it.
Well, if we look at the stats posted so far when tunnelling is tracked, the vast majority of people don't do it. It only occurs in 3%-10% of matches.
-
@SunaIIanu said:
I wouldn't be surprised if tunneling is more common in low mmr, tracking an injured survivor is a lot easier than tracking a healthy surv. Also newer players might not have interacted with the community enough to know that those strategies are unpopular. I'm pretty sure that camping and facecamping was more common in low mmr aswell, for similar reasons. I would guess that I'm average mmr and face camping was rare in my experience, but the Devs still felt that the anti face camp mechanic was necessary (I don't mind it, it just has no impact in most of my matches).
Others have already said it, but tunneling has no dictionary entry, it will always be subjective (just like genrushing, if you look at the recent post about it). And as someone who has been playing since late 2017, no the definition was never unanimous, people argued about it back than aswell.
Personally, I define tunneling as intentionally chasing (and hooking if possible) someone right after they have been unhooked. So I would also call it tunneling if a Killer stops "tunneling" after the second hook, but in my experience that isn't a common experience. More common is leaving a survivor after the first hook but tunneling after the second, because by then gens have popped and the Killer wants to get a kill. And that is understandable, but can still be frustrating If you're the survivor in that situation.
I find it curious that you like to tunnel but try to convince people that tunneling isn't a problem. Scared your winning strategy could be nerfed?
Others have already said it, but tunneling has no dictionary entry, it will always be subjective (just like genrushing, if you look at the recent post about it). And as someone who has been playing since late 2017, no the definition was never unanimous, people argued about it back than aswell.
I don't think I'm far off from the original definition of tunnelling. There is an unofficial dictionary entry for it on Urban Dictionary from 2019. The way they defined it resembles tunnel vision and focusing only 1 survivor. It's also the most upvoted definition with only 4 downvotes, so the vast majority of people agreed with it.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tunneling
I find it curious that you like to tunnel but try to convince people that tunneling isn't a problem. Scared your winning strategy could be nerfed?
I just like calling people out when they are wrong. It doesn't matter what side they are on. I've made threads in the past calling out killer mains for crying about survivors, e.g.
I even mention this in one of the comments.
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753360#Comment_3753360
I think this graphic have some major flaws.
It dosnt have low or mid MMR.
And the Overall is including the high MMR that is already represented once.
High mmr is the top 10% of players. Similarly, low mmr would be the bottom 10%. The "overall stats" overwhelmingly represent the average player as 80% of the data comes from the middle range.
@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753976#Comment_3753976
I mean, from where I'm standing, they already did. I bring OTR in 90% of my survivor games, but it's not like BT where the perk was legitimately mandatory on everyone to stop the killer from being able to sit next to the hook and smack the unhooked survivor back down the microsecond their feet touched the ground.
Now that it's guaranteed to give an endurance hit no matter what, I've had a killer hit me off the hook, like… once? in the entirety of survivor games I've played during the event? And it was a Billy saw, so I don't even know if they were trying to hit me or the unhooker. Way more common that the killer waits 10 seconds, tries to hit me then, and OTR gives me value.
Tunneling is still inordinately powerful, but we're no longer at the stage where perks are mandatory to bandaid game flaws, and the basegame protections have done a fair job at making these tactics less ubiquitous.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753910#Comment_3753910
Unfortunately I think intent, or at least an inference of it, is necessary to come up with any kind of meaningful statistic about tunneling. A survivor being hooked twice in a row doesn't really mean anything by itself. If the chases between those hooks were a minute apart, the killer was doing other things, and then happened to find that same survivor healed and doing gens, that isn't a tunnel. Even if the hooks are in quick succession, it can be a matter of bad luck or poor plays, though the situation starts looking more suspect.
But, I think you can reasonably discern intent by whether or not the killer makes an attempt to pursue that survivor 3x in a row. This was observable in most of your games. True, you don't have eyes in the sky, but if the killer isn't proxying/coming back to the hook or they're chasing someone else, it's not tunneling - or at least not a definition of tunneling many people would agree with, so not statistically useful.
I'm not saying you need the kind of perfect match replay that picks apart why the killer might have tunneled that survivor, whether it was incited, if the survivor did something stupid that made them an opportunistic target, or whether factors in the match made the tunnel 'justified.' That level of intent is too specific and defeats the point of this experiment. But I do think you need a higher standard of narrowing down 'this killer was trying to get a survivor out of the game,' because as it is, a sample of seven games turned up six false positives where your definition of tunneling was met, but the actual spirit and predominant complaint of tunneling was not.
a sample of seven games turned up six false positives where your definition of tunneling was met, but the actual spirit and predominant complaint of tunneling was not.
I assume you are referring to the Legion game for the one he was tunnelled? That Legion was actually trying to avoid tunnelling. Look at timestamp 00:30:44.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2187365999?t=0h30m41sCheryl literally unhooked you right in front of the killer. He could have tunnelled you right there out of the game, but he completely ignored you. It seems he was actually trying to avoid tunnelling you.
-
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753905#Comment_3753905
You may not know, but "tunneling" came from "tunnel vision", which is basically equivalent of "(nearly) ignoring other survivors until you kill one specific survivor"
So what actually "defined out of existence" here is that strange 2 hook = tunnel thing, because literally no one thought hooking twice and intentionally avoiding third hook as a "intentionally avoiding other survivors to kill one specific survivor" before, pretty sure it's quite opposite
Yep. Back when I started playing in 2019, tunnelling was generally considered as being tunnel visioned into killing a single survivor. This 2 hooks in a row definition is a large deviation from what tunnelling originally was.