adsads123123123123
adsads123123123123
About
- Username
- adsads123123123123
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753906#Comment_3753906
Realizing you either can't find the Survivor or chase them efficiently while not throwing doesn't mean you didn't tunnel earlier.
now, you're making it about intent, which is ABSURDLY difficult to decipher from an often across-the-map perspective.
Failing a tunnel-out due to circumstances or realizing you're getting cooked doesn't mean it doesn't count.
I don't think it will be difficult to determine. Just see who the killer is chasing. If they are heavily focused on chasing and killing 1 survivor, they are probably tunnelling. If they have split their chases across multiple people before the first person dies, they probably aren't tunnelling. If they skip opportunities where they could have tunnelled someone out on death hook, they probably aren't tunnelling.
You need to keep in mind that often the killer is just going for the easiest or closest person to chase, and this may cause it to look like tunnelling when they happen to find the same person twice in a row. You should check the whole match to see if they are just chasing the first person they find.
-
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753902#Comment_3753902
Nothing is going to be a problem if you just define it out of existence.
If I say that 'gen rushing' is when the Pope himself flies in with a toolbox and completes all 5 generator by himself, then boom. That's never happened so clearly gen rushing isn't an issue.
You could say that if I gave a wildly inaccurate definition of tunnelling, but my definition is mostly accurate. You don't think committing hard to killing a single person is tunnelling?
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753902#Comment_3753902
At this point, I don't really care, watch them or don't.
Your definition of tunnel ignores Survivor input.
Killer hooks 1-1-3-1. 3 goes down bodyblocking for 1. Tunneling via your definition? No. Tunneling tho? Yup. There are issues with your definition.
I'm going to equip Bond as well as Open-Handed/Kindred. Might as well see what's going on.
Killer hooks 1-1-3-1. 3 goes down bodyblocking for 1. Tunneling via your definition? No. Tunneling tho? Yup. There are issues with your definition.
There is no inconsistency at all. I said that tunnelling is the killer committing hard to killing a single person. They don't actually have to down the person to be tunnelling. For example, if the killer spends all game chasing 1 survivor and that survivor escapes, it's tunnelling. Your example also counts as tunnelling.
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753830#Comment_3753830
The problem here is that you are assuming that your defintion is the end all be all correct one.
I'm restarting the experiment with the new knowledge presented, and once again will be taking all of the "skill issue, stop being bad comments."
I wouldn't say it's the only correct definition, but it definitely isn't a tunnel unless the killer commits hard to killing a single person. It should seem like the killer is very determined to kill one person, e.g. trying to find and kill them quickly and ignoring other survivors. I'm going to disclose now that I tunnel frequently, so I know exactly what a tunneler thinks like. This is what tunnelling looks like.
https://youtu.be/5yReLf0tYog?si=faTtwwUCC2x1m5PuYou can see that the first 2 survivors would have been hard tunnelled out of the game very quickly (if they weren't pick up saved). Note that I uploaded this video long before I made this thread, so this is just normal gameplay for me.
Just play the remaining 8 matches. I don't have time to watch another 15 matches.
-
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753805#Comment_3753805
Not to mention the fact with that definition, if killer hooked every survivors in a row while intentionally avoiding last hooks and give all of them escape, he will be accused of "ultra super duper mega tunneler" because he managed to tunnel FOUR TIMES in single match
This is ridiculous really
Yep. I'm now convinced that people think they get tunnelled every match due to thinking 2 hooks in a row = tunnelling. If that definition is followed, people are "tunnelled" every match, which was why it occurred 6/7 times in Pulsar's matches, but in reality the killer wasn't tunnelling at all.
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753717#Comment_3753717
If I knew we were going to change the definition of tunneling and argue over details, I wouldn't have bothered. However, since we're here. Your definition seems to be that you can only tunnel if someone dies.
I specifically wanted to keep the definition simple. The truth is that tunneling can be instigated, it can be deserved. It doesn't make it not tunneling, but it does make it understandable. However, I can't be present and account for all of that, which is why you'll recall that I asked whether or not I was to be in a SWF or Solo Q. The only way I could account for it is by having all four members of my SWF stream.
As for the games:
Yun-Jin could have easily been hiding. The Killer did not chase her at all, nor did he chase anyone near her location, for the rest of the game. This counts as a tunnel.
Legion did tunnel, but it was a tunnel of my own making. Still a tunnel as he didn't hook anyone else between me and I stayed out of his way and made myself an uninteresting target for the rest of the game.
Unknown Match: I HATE DWIGHT SO MUCH. We could've won that and he threw so hard for no reason.
I give the Huntress the benefit of the doubt, unlike PH or Legion. She was clearly trying not to tunnel.
I really don't know what to make of David cuz Legion was literally right next to him the entire time.
First two hooks were on me. Once again, tunneling as no one was hooked between us. I actually thought my team was fine, but I was clearly not supposed to be there.
If I knew we were going to change the definition of tunnelling and argue over details, I wouldn't have bothered. However, since we're here. Your definition seems to be that you can only tunnel if someone dies.
Yes, because tunnelling is killing someone fast to make the game a 3v1, which is the whole reason killers tunnel in the first place. You need to consider it from the perspective of the killer. Hooking someone twice in a row serves no benefit to the killer. Killers do not benefit from tunnelling until the survivor they are tunnelling dies. What is the point of hooking someone twice in a row then not killing them after? If they were truly tunnelling, they would commit to the kill. Tunnelling killers do not go into the game with the goal of 2 hooking someone. They go into the game with the goal of killing someone fast.
Also, if a survivor gets hooked twice in a row at the start of the match and gets to play the next 9 minutes normally, does it matter?
I went with your definition of tunnelling because I wanted to see whether you think you get tunnelled every match due to your perspective of tunnelling. I didn’t necessarily agree with the definition from the start.
However, I can't be present and account for all of that, which is why you'll recall that I asked whether or not I was to be in a SWF or Solo Q. The only way I could account for it is by having all four members of my SWF stream.
The reason for solo queue is to make it more representative of the average player. If you play with a 4-man SWF, the results are going to be very specific to your SWF. There may also be things your SWF does unintentionally or intentionally that causes more tunnelling.
Yun-Jin could have easily been hiding. The Killer did not chase her at all, nor did he chase anyone near her location, for the rest of the game. This counts as a tunnel.
To analyse whether this was a tunnel or not, I have analysed every event from her unhook:
- 00:06:23: unhooked (2 gens left)
- 00:06:29: Dwight chased
- 00:06:51: killer leavers Dwight without getting a hit (failed 22 second chase)
- 00:06:58: Yun-Jin works on 0% gen with Pulsar
- 00:07:07: killer patrols gen and finds them. Yun-Jin overstayed on the gen and pathed poorly causing her to be found and get hit for free. Yun-Jin should have left early and pathed backwards like Pulsar did. Killer was unaware Pulsar was there due to Pulsar leaving much earlier.
- 00:07:28 Yun-Jin is downed from healthy in less than 20 seconds. She was also downed extremely quickly the first time she was downed, suggesting she is a low skilled player.
- 00:08:15: Yun-Jin is unhooked. The killer very quickly returned to the hook and decided to chase Pulsar instead of Yun-Jin who was on death hook.
- 00:08:20: Pulsar is chased.
- 00:08:55: killer failed to get a hit on Pulsar (35 second failed chase). 1 gen is completed. 1 gen remains.
- 00:09:49: killer chases Dwight
- 00:10:18: chase ends without getting hit (30 sec failed chase)
- 00:10:44: Pulsar works on gen. Yun-Jin and Dwight are healing very close. Pyramid Head arrives. At 00:10:51, Pyramid Head saw Yun-Jin through the window and decided to chase Pulsar instead.
- 00:10:58: after hitting Pulsar, the killer returned to kick the gen that was 75% complete (1 gen remaining). At 00:11:26, the gen progress had dropped considerably indicating the killer kicked it.
- 00:11:37: Alan Wake was chased
- 00:12:14: Yun-Jin escapes through Exit Gate
- 00:12:15: chase with Alan Wake ended with no hit (38 second failed chase)
The strongest evidence that the killer wasn’t tunnelling was that he didn’t chase Yun-Jin when he returned to hook at 00:08:15 and 00:10:44 when he found her. He also chased several other people for long periods of time as discussed in the log. He seemed to mostly chase the first person he found.
Side note: the killer was seemingly bad considering all the failed chases, 4 man escape, and only 2 hook states.
Legion did tunnel, but it was a tunnel of my own making. Still a tunnel as he didn't hook anyone else between me and I stayed out of his way and made myself an uninteresting target for the rest of the game.
At 00:30:44, Cheryl literally unhooked you right in front of the killer. He could have tunnelled you right there out of the game, but he completely ignored you. It seems he was actually trying to avoid tunnelling you.
Also, Legion is one of the best killers to find survivors due to his power, which shows Killer Instinct and encourages him to run around the map hitting everyone. If he wanted to find you, he could have done it. All he had to do was hit someone with his power and run around the map until he found you.
Near the end of the match, there were 3 survivors on death hook. If he wanted to tunnel, he could have committed to someone on death hook, but he didn’t.
He also had Thana, which discourages tunnelling because Thana is basically useless when a survivor is killed.
His build and gameplay does not make sense for a tunneller.
I really don't know what to make of David cuz Legion was literally right next to him the entire time.
David undeniably gave up or went afk. There is very strong evidence David was afk:
- David stood at the exact same spot after being unhooked for over 15 seconds
- He didn’t mend Deep Wound at all
- He didn’t Wiggle while the killer was carrying him
- At 01:15:59, you checked the menu and David was still spectating 4 minutes after dying. It doesn’t make sense for someone who gave up to remain that long, especially since your team did nothing to annoy David. He most likely was afk.
Also, Legion wasn’t standing next to David the whole time. At 01:11:48, David was hooked on the hill. David was unhooked at 01:12:03. David was hit with Deep Wound at 01:12:18 (15 seconds later). After that, Legion chased Ace for half of the Deep Wound timer and only returned to David because David was afk.
First two hooks were on me. Once again, tunneling as no one was hooked between us. I actually thought my team was fine, but I was clearly not supposed to be there.
You shouldn’t have been hiding next to the gen but the team definitely led the killer to you.
Your team was extremely bad. They practically lost at 5 gens and were horribly inefficient. One of your teammates was literally chasing the killer, as seen at 01:23:23. Throughout the match, the entire team came to unhook 1 survivor multiple times, which is extremely inefficient and allows the killer to secure easy hits. This would have been a 4k at 5 gens regardless of tunnel or not.
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753440#Comment_3753440
7 games down.
4/7 had tunneling in some fashion.
I've finished reviewing your matches. According to the definition you specified (technical tunnel), you were tunnelled in 6/7 matches. However, after reviewing your matches, tunnelling occurred in 0 of your matches (actual tunnel). I've discussed the reasons for each match in this spreadsheet. Feel free to refute them if you disagree. I believe this shows that the technical definition of tunnelling (2 hooks in a row on the same person) is an oversimplification and grossly overestimates the amount of tunnelling. Often times, the killer is just chasing the closest person or first person they find. You can usually tell if the killer is actually tunnelling based on whether they quickly finish off a survivor (3 hooks). In many of your matches with technical tunnelling, the killer hooked the same survivor twice in a row near the start of the match and never chased that person again. If they were really tunnelling, they would have actively seeked that person out to finish them off.
Link to Pulsar's VOD:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2187365999Reupload to Youtube for archiving:
https://youtu.be/_hiWN2jCyPo -
@Halloulle said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753345#Comment_3753345
I don't know about others but at least I don't mean that high mmr players get targeted for tunneling less often. It's less successful against them. And as you say: matchmaking is a huge mixed bag. So chances are a killer will find a not-high-mmr-person to tunnel fast enough. (which imo is also why tunneling in pubs is so strong while in comp it isn't necessarily - I mean; there's a lot of not so great players in comp as well but if we look at the teams… say starting with the quarter finals of a given tourney.)
High mmr survivors actually have similar escape rapes to average mmr survivors. While they are better at the game, they also face better killers, causing their escape rate to remain similar. It's only 4-man SWFs and extremely good survivors that escape significantly more. Asides from Scott Jund, I don't think the other 2 data sets posted here fall into those categories.
https://new.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1arg1o4/developer_update_stats/
-
This argument that average mmr survivors are tunnelled significantly more is largely unfounded because it assumes that high mmr survivors play exclusively with high mmr survivors and killers. This is false. Matchmaking is very loose. There will be many matches where a high mmr survivor is teamed with terrible/low mmr teammates and against baby killers. If tunnelling was significantly more frequent at average mmr, this would have been seen in the data posted, but tunnel rates were very low across all data sets. It also assumes tunnelling is less frequent at high mmr, but there is no evidence for this. If we look at the top level (tournaments), tunnelling occurs extremely frequently, suggesting it is more frequent at high mmr.
-
@TheSubstitute said:
Another so-called experiment that means nothing. Unless every player in every region and every MMR has the exact same matches it's not representative of the larger whole.
With how people over extrapolate it's no wonder BHVR is reluctant to release statistics.
So, you're one of those people that think you get tunnelled every match? Upload your gaming sessions for proof. Thanks.
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753200#Comment_3753200
15 might still take me 3 years 😅
Regular gamemode, I presume? Wouldn't make much sense to test on an event, imo.
What information do you want me to take down? 15 is a relatively small sample size, so it won't be too difficult to take down a lot of info. Likewise, SWF or Solo Q?
Solo Q regular game mode.
Stats:
- Number of survivors that were tunnelled (including you)
- Number of times you were tunnelled
- Whether there was a disconnect and who disconnected
- The killer
- Ideally upload the end-game screens to Imgur
Mention the timestamps for the games with tunnelling, so I can quickly find them and don't have to watch every game.
This is just the first 15 matches you play randomly. Don't try to isolate it to just certain matches. Play as you normally do. Don't try to play more toxic or bold to encourage tunnelling.
Also, state your definition of tunnelling here now, so you can't change it later to suit your narrative.
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753194#Comment_3753194
With all due respect to Scott, he's a nice dude, he isn't one of the best Killers. Not even close.
I wouldn't be sending it to Scott, it'd be coming right to you. It might take me three years, because my patience and will to play DBD is at an all-time low, but it'll get done.
What would be a sufficient amount of games?
When I say one of the best, I mean in the top 0.5% of killers.
You don't need to send me hundreds of matches. A preliminary sample of 10-15 matches is good enough for a rough estimate. Hundreds of matches are only needed to confirm with high accuracy and reduce variance.
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753176#Comment_3753176
I don't think Scott is high MMR. I have no supporting facts other than I have never seen him try and he actively brings meme builds.
Likewise, I really don't want to play Survivor anymore, or really DBD in general, but I will if you'll actually accept what I find. Somehow, I imagine that if the results don't fit your narrative, they'll be conveniently ignored.
I don't think Scott is high MMR. I have no supporting facts other than I have never seen him try and he actively brings meme builds.
He's been playing this game for about 7 years and is one of the best killer players. He's definitely high mmr for survivor. Also due to the mmr soft cap existing, it's unnecessary to be max mmr to face the best killers. Just being above the soft cap is good enough.
If we were to truly look at the best survivor players, their tunnel rate would be close to 0 because they would be playing in a 4-man swf and escaping almost every match.
Upload your games and send it to Scott. With the data so far, I find it impossible for tunnelling to occur >50% of the time over the long-term.
-
@Pulsar said:
One of his issues was that he specifically asked if YOU got tunneled, not if you saw tunneling.
Being tunneled 27% of the time actually seems to support the idea that tunneling is fairly frequent.
No, it doesn't. This 27% value is based on subjective evaluations and people guessing their own experiences. It may support how often people feel they get tunnelled but not how often they actually get tunnelled. I have already provided 2 data sets that show that tunnelling occurs far less frequently than reported (5%-10% where anyone gets tunnelled). @nazzanako also mentioned their data set of 421 matches, which showed tunnelling occurred in 1/12 (8.3%) of matches. So far, the data overwhelmingly shows that people drastically overestimate how often they get tunnelled.
@C3Tooth said:
May I use the math that "multiplied by 4 survivors"?
If I, one survivor, being tunneled 27% average. Does that mean 4 survivors make it 108%?
I mean if Im not being tunneled, doesnt mean one of other 3 teammates isnt being tunneled. Hope his survey shows tunneling rate counted on both people doing the survey and their teammates. Not just them alone.
This multiply by 4 math is only applicable when people actually track their stats, which provides accurate data. The survey was based on people's feelings, which is why it doesn't add up. If anything, the incorrect math shows that people inaccurately reported how often they were tunnelled.
@ChaosWam said:
I always like seeing these kinds of surveys and tests done, it's very interesting.
That said, isn't the test pool kind of small? I feel like in terms of tunneling it should be tested across more matches and different MMR brackets, though I am not sure how you would pull that off. And considering this community, it would be difficult to just ask a large pool of players for their stats and for it to be accurate enough to trust. And I say that for both survivor and killer mains.
On average, you get responses from people that are average mmr, so the results are applicable for average mmr. For high mmr, you can check how often top survivor players get tunnelled, e.g. Hens and Otz, from their VODs. I don't think there would be much difference since Scott Jund is very high mmr and his experiment showed that high mmr players were rarely tunnelled.
-
@Caiman said:
I don't trust complaints about tunneling because people's definitions of tunneling are unreliable.
@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753130#Comment_3753130
Big +1 to this.
Some people (correctly) ID tunneling as the killer pursuing them off each hook no matter who else tries to get in the way. Some say they're being tunneled because they went right back on a gen next to the hook. Some say they're being tunneled because the killer is snowballing hard and they got hooked twice in the span of a minute, even though other players were downed between those times. Some say they're being tunneled because they used endurance to bodyblock for the unhooker and then went "wait that's illegal" when the killer committed to them. Some say they're being tunneled because at 2 gens left the killer started targeting them hard. Some say they're being tunneled because they died.
Combo the confirmation bias that makes it feel like the killer has it out for you in particular because you don't see their interactions with anyone else, with the prevalent zeitgeist that you remember your unpleasant matches much more than your average ones, and the game feels a lot worse than it is. I'm not surprised at these results. Doesn't mean tunneling isn't a problem, but it's definitely not an every game thing.
The worst part is that the survey was based on people's subjective evaluations of their experience, so even when people use their unreliable and subjective definitions, only 7% of people reported tunnelling >60% of the time. Considering the data, probably no one gets tunnelled that often over the long-term/hundreds of games.
-
@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753024#Comment_3753024
If the killer actively decides to not progress the match by avoiding the bot and also keeping the bot from doing gens then the survivor isn't doing anything wrong in responding to that in this way. If the killer really doesn't want to have a hatch race and is willing to go that far not to do it, then they shouldn't complain when survivors do this. Why do killers get a pass on this but survivors are expected to basically give the match to the killer?
The survivor isn't also progressing the match by hiding rather than doing gens. If I waste all my time chasing the bot, that's free time for the survivor to do gens.
-
@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752995#Comment_3752995
If it's a skill issue, why am I being matched against killers that are clearly far better than me and my teammates?
You are probably overestimating how often you lose due to negativity bias (my guess) or there aren't enough killers at your skill level to match you with.
-
@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753003#Comment_3753003
They don't want to hide. They also don't want to lose. This is the problem in this situation. A bot can't read a situation it isn't programmed to read. 2 real players in this situation could attempt to work together to either do the gens or interact with the killer in ways a bot wouldn't. You basically just helped support my point in that this is a problem and bot AI needs improvement.
They do want to hide. I've had games where they hid for 30 minutes before finally giving up. Often, survivors are salty from getting stomped and are hiding to spite me.
-
Slugging is high risk high reward. If the killer manages to keep up map pressure, they are rewarded, but if they mess up and take too long to chase or find survivors, they are heavily punished. Hooking is far more valuable and efficient compared to slugging on average.
-
I've used this strat since day 1 of bots. It's my favourite method of punishing immersed survivors. I just keep chasing the bot until the immersed survivor gets impatient and gives up. If survivors want to hide, I can waste their time too.
-
You need to track it in a way that allows the information to be summarised. Just scrolling through the data isn't useful.
-
Game after game of the entire team dying with 4 or 5 gens left. Killers finding and downing survivors within the first 20 seconds of the game starting. Barely even being able to do gens because we practically start off on the back-foot and are just unhooking and healing all game.
This sound like a massive skill issue. I checked streams of survivor mains and losing at 4-5 gens is uncommon.
-
Doing gens quickly.
-
There's no official definition of a win. You may consider a 3k a win but that killer may consider a 4k a win. The killer has every right to try for the 4k as much as the last survivor tries to escape. Both sides are equally at fault for prolonging the match, as both sides can stop at any time.
-
Not giving killers mmr for bleedouts will actually make the game worse for survivors because killers will intentionally slug to keep their mmr low. It's called smurfing.
-
@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
Its not that simple excluding those game than you have to exclude games where the killer gives up as well and play friendly.
There's a big difference. A suicide on hook is the survivor giving up because they dislike the killer or think it's unwinnable. A killer playing friendly is because they want to be nice.
-
Her kill rates are inflated from suicide on hook. Most tier lists only place her on B tier.
-
I'm fairly sure this would cause a hatch stand off.
-
@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746243#Comment_3746243
Just trigger the Guard before you unhook.
Okay, if I run into basement for an unhook, and the Killer places the Guard at the top of the stairs while I am in basement, I have three options:
~ I run out of basement, into the direction of the Killer, just to trigger the Guard, get hit, run back into basement and get hit again while unhooking, forcing a trade. The Knight gains a hook state from that interaction with minimal input.
(Keep in mind, depending on the Guards position, this might not even result in an unhook occurring, this could just result in a net-gain of hook states.)
~ I run out of basement, into the direction of the Killer, just to trigger the Guard, get hit, and run away. The Knight gains a health state advantage from that interaction with minimal input.
~ I unhook the Survivor, Loud Noise Notification forced a Hunt, Survivor is unhooked gets hit by the Guard instantly and loses Endurance, the Knight tunnels the unhooked Survivor. The Knight gains a massive hook state advantage from that interaction with minimal input.
Keep in mind this interaction is not exclusive to the basement and can be done on many different maps, I am just using basement as an example here since it is universal across all maps.
Also this Guard hitting the Survivor 9/10 times sounds like BS.
Guards move to the Survivor's detected location in 2.5 seconds, and will spawn directly on the spot they were alerted to (rather it be where they made Line of Sight or a Loud Noise Notification). This effect goes through walls.
Once the unhook interaction is complete, a Loud Noise Notification is create, and both Survivors are locked into the unhooking animation as long as neither of them are interrupted. This animation just so happens to take 2.5 seconds for the unhooked Survivor, and will result on the Guard traveling through the environment and starting a Hunt on top of the unhooked Survivor since the Loud Noise Notification is sourced from their location; the unhooked Survivor, in this case, will always be hit.
You can test this in a public match, or private match, this is always the result from this interaction. Before you call BS on things, you could have done research or tested it yourself.
Okay, if I run into basement for an unhook, and the Killer places the Guard at the top of the stairs while I am in basement, I have three options:
Adding anti-camp meter for Guards would do nothing in this situation since the meter does not build up when a survivor is near the hook.
If Knight is camping away from the hook without a Guard at the basement, anti-camp wouldn't build up.
If Knight leaves his Guard at the basement, you would always proc the Guard when running into the basement.
You've failed to provide an example where anti-camp meter would help.
I didn't test your example but it seems like it would mainly only work in the basement, and in most open hook areas, you would be able to proc the Guard before unhooking.
-
@squib_guy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745559#Comment_3745559
Yes, in fact, I would. Again, it wouldn't be ideal, and I don't believe Bhvr would give us the ideal solution, but I'd gladly sactifice an addon slot to turn this autoaim off over not having the option to turn it off at all. I only suggest it the other way around since I figured M&K was the more popular way to play the game, since it has its origins on PC.
They could probably do that. There are many addons that disadvantage the killer in exchange for a BP bonus. Also, there is no game where PC is the majority. In every multi-platform game, with the exception of FPS, console players are the vast majority.
-
@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746173#Comment_3746173
That only applies if the Guard is actively hunting you.
Unhooking creates a Loud Noise Notification, which Guards will instantly start hunting, and 9 times out of 10 it results in the Survivor who was being unhooked being hit by a Guard while they are still in the animation of getting off the hook. It removes Endurance, puts them in Deep Wounds, and makes them an easy target to tunnel.
This is especially easy to do on Indoor maps and basement.
You have full vision of the Guard's detection radius. Just trigger the Guard before you unhook. Not hard if the Guard is camping the hook. Also, this Guard hitting the survivor 9/10 times sounds like BS. Guards do not have the movement speed to solo chase a survivor down.
-
There doesn't need to be much comeback mechanic in a game where matches last 10 minutes on average. Hatch + Exit Gates as a comeback is already sufficient. Even if they added more comeback mechanics, it wouldn't make a difference. If survivors were getting stomped so hard that they all died at 4-5 gens, there's no point of keeping the game going with comebacks because they would have just kept getting stomped.
-
The Guards disappear the moment you unhook, so they are useless for camping hook.
-
Nah. Setting it at 180 sec would somewhat defeat the purpose of the change. It's not rare to down 2-3 survivors in a corner of the map. If the respawn time was 180 sec, that would be most of the bleed out time.
-
@squib_guy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745253#Comment_3745253
care to elaborate? or are you just pretending to have something of substance to add to the conversation?
Would you be fine with having to run an addon to remove the auto aim? That's equivalent of what you're suggesting. If you are, that should be your suggestion instead.
-
Unfortunately, Singularity will never be playable on console without auto aim.
-
@Pulsar said:
The guard cycle is an integral part of his gameplay.
@Chadku said:
Imagine being able to cycle to the Guard you need for the situation you end up in.
Breaking gens & pallets instantly, wasting time with the Jailer or being able to keep the Assassin for every chase.
"Integral"
@ARTRA said:
I would pick 90% of the time assassin and carnifex only for pallets. Jailor would never see play.
In any case i would change Jailor to be less trash.
(Also base map of the realm bhvr pls)
@SirCracken said:
I'm currently in the process of writing a complete overhaul of a Knight's power. It's going to be incredibly long and detailed because Knight's power cannot be easily fixed by just allowing him to choose which guards to use on a whim. That would only compound how un-interactive he can be to play.
@Devil_hit11 said:
I think Knight's pallet break should work like Anniversary pallet break. Look at pallets ->pallet breaks->power goes on cooldown.
@nars said:
No thanks. I'd rather not deal with infinite instabreak carnifex's at his disposal. Carnifex is only kept in check by the guard cycle anyways with how strong it is.
@masonsunderland said:
People would just use the carnifex every time.
I'd rather behaviour just make the other two guards have utility
Look like I was right all along. BHVR will implement the change I suggested, as mentioned in the latest developer update.
https://new.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1dkc94v/developer_update_june_2024/
Knight has been a failure all these years and currently has the 2nd lowest kill rate. Knight wasn't "fine as is".
https://nightlight.gg/killers/viewer?sort=kill&shown=kill&start_days=28&compact=true
-
@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742104#Comment_3742104
buddy did you even play back then? Did you see the 3 gen set ups we had back then? I even gave you specific examples too of maps where the killer didn’t really need move a whole lot to put pressure. Also the killers back then used overcharge and call of brine to make the gen regress faster.
If the 3 gens were super close then you would be in long matches. I remember the last time I played vs that build was vs a weaker on ormond and it last 36 minutes. Knight was also a master at this
Using the “skill issue card” too deflect off you incorrect statements is just funny. But I shouldn’t be shocked by someone that said that killers these past two years have been weak
buddy did you even play back then? Did you see the 3 gen set ups we had back then? I even gave you specific examples too of maps where the killer didn’t really need move a whole lot to put pressure. Also the killers back then used overcharge and call of brine to make the gen regress faster.
Yes. Getting held hostage by Myers is a skill issue. Myers kill rate was unaffected by Eruption, Call of Brine, and Overcharge changes. If Myers was reliant on that build to win, he would have seen a large drop in kill rates after the perk nerfs, but his kill rate was completely unaffected by patch 6.6.0. This indicates that the build was of little importance to him.
https://nightlight.gg/killers/Shape
Also, there were 2 meta builds during that time. One was Eruption, CoB, and Overcharge. The other was Pain Res + DMS. Looking at the kill rates of Eruption and Pain Res during those patches, they both performed similarly. The killers that had good mobility ran Eruption, CoB, and Overcharge while the ones with poor mobility ran Pain Res + DMS.
https://nightlight.gg/perks/Eruption
https://nightlight.gg/perks/Scourge_Hook:_Pain_Resonance
Did you see the 3 gen set ups we had back then?
Gen spawn logic has not changed, so gen setups at the same now compared to the past.
I even gave you specific examples too of maps where the killer didn’t really need move a whole lot to put pressure.
If the 3 gens were super close then you would be in long matches. I remember the last time I played vs that build was vs a weaker on ormond and it last 36 minutes. Knight was also a master at this
It doesn't matter if you post a few maps where 3 gening was good. I could easily counter by mentioning maps with terrible 3 gens, such as Badham and old Red Forest. What matters is how effective the perk is on average across all maps.
-
@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741590#Comment_3741590
strongly disagree. Eurption was good on every single killler because they could simply just camp the 3 gen at the beginning of the match. Maps like haddonfield and RPD had ridiculous 3 gens. I remember seeing killers like Myers use it and doing fine. I said 6 at the most because once 6.1 eruption was out that’s when the tide turned. The gen kick meta was easily the worst and most boring meta in dbds history. From then to current day killer has been strong on par with survivors.
That's just a skill issue if you got held hostage by a Myers, who has one of the worst chase abilities in the game and also no mobility. Skull Merchant was the only killer that could ever consistently hold a 3 gen from the start of the match.
-
@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741484#Comment_3741484
eruption was stronger than 6.1 DH.
It was on that killers that could abuse it, mainly high mobility killers, which could run around kicking every gen. However, it was mediocre on killers lacking mobility, which was almost every killer back then. Gen kicking was very weak and largely a waste of time (without perks) in the past. Also, Dead Hard made it difficult to secure downs to proc Eruption.
@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3741484#Comment_3741484
I would say 6 at the most. 8 would imply that killer was always weak the entire dbd lifespan which isn’t true
Killers overall were weaker for 7 years, but if you are talking about just the top tier killers, it varied depending on the patch.
-
@JeanGreyarea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738868#Comment_3738868
8 years is an exaggeration
Imo, this game was survivor-sided until the last nerf on Dead Hard, so 7 years would be more accurate.
-
If it's only a limited time event, just add 2v8 as is. No need to waste much time balancing it. Being able to abuse broken things is what makes it fun.
-
Funny you say that when Billy has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game. I suggest you watch this streamer and tell me if it still takes no skill after.
https://www.twitch.tv/dwichaeljackson -
@Jaredleto1234 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738249#Comment_3738249
I don't have a computer good enough to record and play. I can send
you my nightlight stats if you really want them but I just recently
started recording the end game screens.Step 1. Only play trapper
if you have 2 good addons and one must be "The trapper sack" no matter
what. You have two options for the other addon "iridescent stone" or
"honing stone". Iridescent stone is going to be better against SWFs or
survivors trying to drive you nuts and for that reason it is the safer
option. "Honing Stone" will just destroy soloQ teams and is more
aggressive in getting quick 4ks against none SWF teams. The reason you
must use the trapper sack, is most of the time wasted on trapper is
running around picking up traps. You will lose 2-3 gens just setting up
your web if you don't play this addon.Step 2. Use Corrupt
intervention, Nowhere to hide, overcharge, and surge. Corrupt gives you
time to set up the traps, on top of either protecting your 3-4 gen or
pushing survivors to your web. Nowhere to hide since we have a kick perk
it pairs well with Overcharge. Overcharge because you want to be
protecting the gens in your web. Surge for the same reason you run
overcharge. The only perk here I would never remove is Corrupt
intervention, the other 3 can be up to you. I recommend running at least
1-2 regression perks that don't require you to scourge hook. The
play-style of iron grasp or Agitation to bring people further into your
web can be equally as strong. Just be aware that a lot of times hooking
someone in the basement can cause a team to give up and hurt your pips.
But if all you care about is winning then a basement hook is almost
always an instant win on trapper.Step 3. The game started now
what? Look around and see what the gens look like, try to find an area
with 4+ gens that you can almost entirely kill all looping or escapes. A
lot of times if a gen spawned in shack you can immediately setup around
that area. The goal is to put down traps in high traffic areas THAT
CANNOT BE SEEN or places that ALWAYS kill a loop. If you put a trap in a
spot where a survivor can see it on a loop, that's a dead trap against
good players. So basically in grassy areas along loops, next to window
vaults, in high traffic doorways, on stairs. A trick for stairs and
doorways is to place the trap slightly down or up the stairs so that it
can only be seen once that player has rounded the corner. If the trap
can be seen in the doorway from far away, they will see that trap.
Remember once you place a trap you cannot move it, it's important that
every trap you place is a good trap.Step 4. Don't get too caught
up in setting traps in your web, if someone is doing a gen inside your
web push them off and prioritize quickly trapping that area. Do your
best to both push people off web gens while also putting down decent
traps.Step 5. Your web is done now what? Easy you just patrol
your web and hit people that try to do your gens. If they run into your
web keep chasing, if they run away from your web, back to patrolling.
You will quickly get the hang of when it's good to keep chasing someone
and when its good to go back to your web. Just don't commit to a chase
long enough that they could finish a gen or get substantial progress on
it while you are gone. If you hook someone away from your web you don't
really need to pressure that hook just go back to your web. If you hook
someone in your web you can somewhat proxy camp and punish the unhook
and in a lot of cases this will result in a free trade. Don't camp so
hard that they can pull themselves off however.Step. Woweee the easiest win of your life.
"This is a repost from another thread, formatting might be trash".
Just tried it against a swf. They just had 1 injured person constantly disarm my traps, so everyone on their team stays healthy.
-
This is how killers felt for 8 years btw.
-
@Jaredleto1234 said:
It's crazy people still think trapper is bad. Anytime I need to do a 4k challenge I immediately pick trapper. Using the addon for carrying all traps at the start and the free reset every 30 seconds is a nearly unwinnable situation for survivors. You can make a web around 3-4 gens and never leave your web from the start of the game. Even with the nerfs to how much you can regress a gen, it is still plenty.
It has been very funny to see killer mains try and gaslight people into thinking Vecna isn't at the very least very high A+ tier. I would rather play a Spirit or billy before I played against a Vecna.
Video please.
-
As a killer main, I would like to see this perk buffed because it's hilarious.
-
chucky got really strong chase perks, batteries included which gives you haste around competed gens, friends til the end reveals obsession and gives exposed status/hex 2 can play- a good chase perk once again
Yeah you probably need to play some killer if you think Batteries and Included and Hex 2 Can Play are good perks. They are by far some of the worst perks ever released. Also, if noob killers can easily destroy experienced survivors, you should be able to switch to killer easily. No reason to play survivor anymore.
-
The buffs just reduced his dependency on addons, but he's practically the same as pre-buff Bubba with Award Winning Chilli + Beast Marks:
- Old duration with Award Winning Chilli: 7.5 sec
- New duration with Award Winning Chilli: 8.1 sec (8% higher)
- Old Speed with Beast Marks: 5.449 m/s
- New Speed with Beast Marks: 5.457 m/s (0.1% higher)
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734846#Comment_3734846
Original Hex Ruin was by far the most ingrained meta and practically every killer needed to run it because every other perk was terrible and gen rushing was far stronger
Firstly, that's not the Ruin I am talking about. I wasn't there for that meta. I joined around the release of the Blight, shortly after DS got its conspic action nerf, and predicting the killer's perk load-out always felt like a shot in the dark. The only thing you could reasonably estimate is that if the killer was playing terribly, there would be a NOED.
Secondly, there's a marked difference between a meta coming into existence because alternatives are terrible, and a meta coming into existence in spite of other options.
It's why Windows of Opportunity is not a problematic high pick rate, but PainRes/Pop is.
As the years progressed, more useful perks were added and gen rushing got nerfed, making it less important to run gen regression perks.
But at some point, despite killers getting more and stronger alternatives, the trend has reversed somehow and now gen regression perks are somehow 'more important than ever'. That's the issue.
Ruin getting a high pickrate among a wasteland of useless perks is different from PainRes/Pop dominating a meta that has a lot of strong alternatives.
It's like Helldivers 2 nerfs, versus Warframe nerfs.
When people call a killer weak, they are talking about the killer overall. They aren't talking about that one specific build required to make the killer strong, especially if an Iri addon is required. Sadako is another good example. She was widely considered as one of the worst killers in her original version, but people acknowledged that her Condemn build (Tape + Ring Drawing) made her strong. For example, Otz rated her as the 3rd worst killer but acknowledged her Tape addon made her far stronger.
That really doesn't make much of a difference in regards to how strong a killer is. I'm fine with moving the discussion towards the awkward place that add-ons and items produce for the game's balance, but clearly, the killers aren't weak if they're able to string together massive win-chains.
And even then, the original point was that the statistics shown were allegedly unreliable because the killers were supposed to be weaker than their kill/winrates would indicate, but if those kill/winrates are perfectly attainable, how are the statistics unreliable?
Firstly, that's not the Ruin I am talking about. I wasn't there for that meta. I joined around the release of the Blight, shortly after DS got its conspic action nerf, and predicting the killer's perk load-out always felt like a shot in the dark. The only thing you could reasonably estimate is that if the killer was playing terribly, there would be a NOED.
Regardless, Pain Res is still dwarfed by the usage rate of the original Hex Ruin.
Secondly, there's a marked difference between a meta coming into existence because alternatives are terrible, and a meta coming into existence in spite of other options.
Ruin getting a high pickrate among a wasteland of useless perks is different from PainRes/Pop dominating a meta that has a lot of strong alternatives.
I said that regression perks were important because almost every perk was terrible and gen rushing was strong. It wasn't purely because every other perk was terrible. The gen rushing that was possible back then isn't remotely close to now. For example:
- gen times were 80 seconds
- Toolboxes were far stronger
- Brand New Part was op
- Prove Thyself was 50% stronger
That's only the gen rushing side of things. Killers were also drastically weaker due to things such as Dead Hard for distance, unbalanced maps (e.g. old Haddonfield and Ormond), and much stronger Med Kits. This meant that chases lasted much longer, allowing survivors to rush gens uninterupted. Regression perks were imperative in the past because the game was unplayable without them. Most perks being terrible was only a small part of why killers ran regression perks.
It's why Windows of Opportunity is not a problematic high pick rate, but PainRes/Pop is.
I think WOO is a problem, but I'm not going to discuss it here. I've already made threads about it in the past.
@adsads123123123123 said:
Dev note: Pain Resonance finds itself in almost 40% of all loadouts, and it is one of the most effective Perks in the game. We want to make this Perk less of a clear choice for all builds, but keep it rewarding for Killers who choose to chase multiple Survivors.
WOO has been the most used survivor perk for a long time. Its usage was 32% according to the Jan 2024 stats and 36%, according to the more recent Nightlight stats. If it is in nearly 40% of builds, shouldn't it be nerfed to make it "less of a clear choice", like Pain Res?
It's arguably the most effective survivor perk (after Dead Hard's nerf) given it's one of the most used survivor perk in the history of DBD and the most popular perk since its buff. It's absurd that WOO has much higher usage than the strongest survivor perks in the history of DBD. For example:
Pre-nerf MFT only had a 21% usage rate, much less than WOO.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/J21WEHFM5RUW/image.png
https://new.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/171i5hc/see_whats_being_used_before_730_drops/
Pre-nerf Decisive Strike had a 27% usage rate, much less than WOO.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JKXDRK3AWE5O/image.png
It's usage is similar to Dead Hard for distance, which had a ~40% usage rate.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ZTVO1FUONMLR/image.png
https://new.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/xez20h/stats_610_in_review/
You can call it a noobie learn the map perk or whatever, but the data doesn't really support that claim. It's still the most used survivor perk in high mmr, who don't need to learn the map at that point.
People will also argue that it closes the gap between SWF and solo but that's complete bs. I discussed it here long ago. Also, the stats show SWF and solos don't have much of a difference in escape rate (excluding high MMR 4-man swfs). There isn't much of a gap between SWFs and solos to begin with.
@adsads123123123123 said:
This is the most used perk. It's not just a noob info perk. Its usage is extremely high in high mmr matches, to the point where most survivors have it. Stats from a few months ago show it was the most popular perk (all MMR).
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VXBWXHTUK8IL/image.png
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504400#Comment_3504400
The strength of the perk is being able to avoid dead zones and immediately understand the layout of a tile. Being able to avoid dead zones is a very strong effect since entering a dead zone is effectively a guaranteed fast hit. For that reason, it can provide multiple extra health states.
But at some point, despite killers getting more and stronger alternatives, the trend has reversed somehow and now gen regression perks are somehow 'more important than ever'. That's the issue.
Idk why people say regression perks are more important than ever. They're just wrong. Regression perks are still important depending on the killer you're playing. Mid to low tier killers still need it. High tier killers don't.
That really doesn't make much of a difference in regards to how strong a killer is. I'm fine with moving the discussion towards the awkward place that add-ons and items produce for the game's balance, but clearly, the killers aren't weak if they're able to string together massive win-chains.
That's just your opinion. I believe most people judge a killer based on their overall strength rather than a niche build, which is more realistic considering survivors face killers running various builds rather than always the same build.
Also if you stomped 999 Clowns but lose to ProVengence on Clown once, is Clown strong? That's essentially what you're saying because the people that get these massive win streaks are <0.1% of players.
Also, there's people with 50+ win streaks on every killer. By your logic, no killer ever needed a buff because someone managed to get a high win streak on them. If you think that's that case, you're in the minority.
And even then, the original point was that the statistics shown were allegedly unreliable because the killers were supposed to be weaker than their kill/winrates would indicate, but if those kill/winrates are perfectly attainable, how are the statistics unreliable?
I'm not going to argue about this since it wasn't my argument, but seeing both the pick rate and kill rate is important because there is bias due to people mainly playing the killers they are good at.