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@ASpazNamedSteve said:
I like the Ruin rework a lot, and agree it needed to go at some point. Problem is, is that it'll highlight the issue of their very bad map design (which I think is the problem, not gen speed).
But don't worry they're reworking 1 map every 5 years :)
Yes, perfectly put. Honestly, with Ruin nerfed, I wouldn't mind a small second objective, but I do agree that it would probably not be needed if maps just got reworked properly and fairly. At a pace where we can actually expect most maps to be reworked soon enough. But now, we have to deal with a bunch of terrible maps, meanwhile Ruin has been nerfed. If most maps were reworked up until now, I'd be perfectly happy about this Ruin rework.
Also, the Badham map received a good rework, but I still feel like there are a few too many safe pallets and loops on those maps. So I really hope with other maps we'll have even more loops that offer counterplay to both killer and survivor.
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Great idea. Nerf Ruin, and then nerf a good combo that has been created with the new Ruin. That's not a good idea at all, unless you want to increase survivor queue times. It takes two of four perks to use that combo anyway.
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@GodDamn_Angela said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/984457#Comment_984457
Oh. I misunderstood some of what you were saying. Thanks for clarifying.
I agree with most of this. The rest I'll just agree to disagree because we look at the game differently when it comes to skill checks and less skilled players. 👍️
Oh ok good.
Yes that's fair, everyone has different opinions.
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@Peanits said:
It could be interesting. If it does, surely that would encourage survivors to slow down and do totems to prevent that from happening.
I honestly doubt that would be interesting. NOED is one of those perks that hurts solo survivors more than swf survivors anyways. Since we still don't have a totem counter. It will just lead to more frustration and people complaining about NOED.
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@GodDamn_Angela said:
" It was just too effective at low ranks, or even just any survivor players who can't hit great skill checks fairly often. It was just a perk that could be extremely powerful against any survivor team that isn't great at hitting skill checks, being too effective in most matches."I agree that it needed a change, but not for this reason. It needed something because many feel they NEED it, even if they actually don't, it makes things more comfortable and predictable. Changing it to make it so Survivors don't have to learn how to play, either by hitting skill checks or finding the totem, is not a good idea especially since it doesn't address the fact that, again, many players feel that they NEED it.
"A second objective shouldn't increase the objective time as much as old Ruin did in most matches, it should just add a bit more objective time."It didn't really increase objective times by that much in most matches, it increased it by a bit but it wasn't as powerful as some of you are making it out to have been. It did make things more manageable and predictable in the early game though.
"The biggest problem is that Ruin, the only proper perk that helped slow down the early game"PGTW and Corrupted Intervention still exist, and they are both proper slow down perks.
I haven't played this game for a bit, so I don't know for sure, but a month ago survivor queue times were longer than killer queue times, so I am also a little worried about survivor queue times becoming very long now.Matchmaking was changed before Christmas break, they changed it so its basically a free-for-all.
There's one last point, and that's regarding the sound bug. Now I haven't played the ptb yet, but I didn't see any mention of the sound being fixed and killers actually being able to hear footsteps of running survivors again.That's because they haven't fixed it yet. They haven't even acknowledged there is a Sound issue, again. Just like last time. And the sound issue involves more than just footsteps. The thing that is most frustrating about the Sound Issue stuff is that you will experience it every game, it is not a "sometimes it happens" bug. Its every match.
I agree with everything else. Especially the statement about the Clown. Rip Mr. Weezey.
I still think the power Ruin had especially at lower ranks was too much. It could slow down games too much if players weren't good enough hitting great skill checks. My problem with Ruin has always been that it's balance varied from rank to rank.
I do get the argument that it's simply something suvivors can learn and get better at. But I feel like hitting skill checks is a kind of skill that shouldn't be that important. It's definitely not a skill that is particularly fun to practice.
But as you say, the problem is that some killers need old Ruin, and there's no compensation for Ruin's nerf. I do fear this will cause less killer variety at high ranks.
I do think that Ruin did increase objective time by quite a bit against survivor teams that aren't that good at hitting skill checks. Of course, against really good survivor teams, Ruin wasn't as effective.
Also, I meant that Ruin is the only perk to help slow down the early game. Though it's true Corrupt Intervention is also decent at that. The problem is that survivors can just hide until Corrupt Intervention deactivates, and then start working on gens, making it only reliable on certain killers. PGTW is really good, but it's better late game and doesn't help alot with the first 2 or 3 generators.
I am very disappointed to see that the devs still haven't made any response to the sound bug. I've always defended the devs saying they are not biased towards any side, but this right here does not help my case at all. Ignoring a serious issue for killers for so long and still not addressing the issue in the next big patch is honestly a bit pathetic in my opinion.
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@ppo8820 said:
I never see him. People stopped playing him pretty quick when they realized all survivors were dcing.
I haven‘t had any survivor dc on me because I was playing Oni in my many matches. He is very well balanced now after the nerfs in my opinion. If you are still struggling a lot against him, it simply takes practice to get used to how to counterplay him.
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I mean, it makes him less addon dependent though, so that's a good thing.
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@Perelie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/932345#Comment_932345
They're not new, they're just bad.
And? Being bad at a game isn't something sinful or anything.
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@Peanits said:
I'd say try it first. You've only heard part of the changes, jumping to a conclusion now is silly.
For those who missed it:
- Treatment mode is gone. You no longer need to switch modes to shock survivors. (Shock and then hit people quicker.)
- The Static Field has been replaced with a Static Blast. This shocks your full terror radius and gives any survivor hit by it a full tier's worth of madness. Cooldown of 60 seconds.
- Various add-on improvements.
- Backwards skill checks in madness.
And there will be a PTB first, of course, which means it could change before going live.
Also he'll be getting his own unique chase music. That doesn't really affect balance, but it's cool and I figured I should mention it.
Can you tell us if there will be some kind of change to his shock therapy range? Because the base range of his shock therapy at the moment is pretty damn bad. The addons that increase the range almost feel mandatory.
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@Dreamnomad said:
Oh one other situation that can be worth charging the club attack for is when dealing with windows. If you know a survivor is going to vault a window you might need to charge a little longer to land it through a window.
As far as I can tell It can actually be helpful at pallet loops as well, since it has a longer range than the normal killer lunge.
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I've been playing Last Year the last two days, and am loving it, despite some issues.
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@FairP1ayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/926784#Comment_926784
Alot of the maps in 1.) have a alt set up that seals those windows, if bE prevented them from ever opening those maps would be totally balanced imo.
Yes exactly.
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@ChiTenshi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/926769#Comment_926769
The Game I find is rather Killer-sided. The small size, lack of safe pallets, and bright colour (everything is white) make it rather difficult to use stealth or mobility to best the Killer.
Maps like the Coal Tower that had an infinite loop are more balanced now due to the Balanced Landing change.
The Game is very small, which is definitely good for map pressure. However, I also find the Game to have a lot of safe pallets. It's probably one of the maps with the most safe pallets. There are many pallets that need to be broken once dropped. Which makes the map quite balanced to me personally.
Coal Tower is definitely one of the most balanced maps in the game right now. Has a fairly small size to allow for map pressure, and it doesn't have any crazy amount of safe pallet loops.
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@LordRegal said:
I’ll add I find Temple of Purgation fine out of that list because the gen spawning algorithm completely favors the temple too much. There’s always an easily defendable 3 gen centered around the inside gen. Play a control game, refuse to leave your half of the map, and you’re good.
I’ll also say Rancid Abattoir is one of the smallest maps in the game, and before they messed with the inside of the building’s rails a bit I thought it was one of the most killer sided maps, outside of one window. The sheer compressed size of it makes for a tense game for survivors if you apply pressure well.
That’s not to say I love every map. The Family Estate duo come to mind as ones I’d like to see tweaked a bit...
I feel like Rancid Abattoir, if it didn't have that god window loop, would be a perfectly balanced map, even with all the safe pallets it has.
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@ChiTenshi said:
Some of the maps you mentioned do need looking into, but only those that cause give one side or the other a big advantage (Rotten Fields, Fractured Cowshed, Underground Complex, The Game all come to mind).
Several of the maps you mentioned are fine and spice up the game-play, forcing both Survivors and Killers to adapt and truly show their skills.
The game I actually find to be quite a balanced map at the moment.
Also, Which of these above mentioned maps would you say are fine?
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There are definitely maps that need some changes. More mindgameable pallets, less safe ones, and these god window loops need to be removed or fixed as well. Bloodlodge for example has a good amount of pallets, it's just that almost all of them are safe.
I don't mind Rotten Fields having so much corn though, I just wish it was slightly smaller and had some more mindgameable loops and less safe ones.
I also never really had a problem with Temple of Purguation, it's only Mother's Dwelling that's a bit too big and has that BS window loop.
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He's definitely not weak. It's just that the latest hotfix took away his flick which was one of the most fun aspects of him, and also made him much weaker at loops, so he struggles against top survivor players.
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@Unicorn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/924757#Comment_924757
I can see where you're coming from but I'm just going to agree to disagree. I've seen some CRAZY Spirit and Billy's, not only against me but on streams, YouTube, ect. There are Killers that can hold their own against highly coordinated and skilled SWF's. It all depends on their playstyle and technique. Sure they sweat but they get it done and done well.
Well don't get me wrong. I'm not saying those players with serious skill can't win against these kind of survivor teams. I think they have a good chance to win. I'm just saying that survivor teams of equal skill have just as much of a chance of winning against the killer.
If you are saying that these killer players can destroy even the best swf teams no matter what, then we need to agree to disagree. But I understand where you are coming from. Some killers really seem insane in the right hands. I just believe that equally skilled survivor players still have a chance against killers like that.
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@Unicorn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/924611#Comment_924611
You're kind of insulting the great Killers out there that do. Me and my friends (when we do play together) have gotten CRUSHED by really good Billy's and Spirit's. Idk if its just you, but there are Killers out there very well qualified and capable of destroying SWF's. Most likely have more experience than most.
Well sure I just believe they can't crush survivor teams of equal skill level. I believe if the survivor team is good enough, they still have a fair chance to win against an incredibly good Billy or Spirit. Spirit's counterplay is quite luck based though.
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I really like all these changes. Though personally, I feel like Lucky Break would still be a pretty bad perk even if it was permanent, unless you run it with Iron Will.
Personally, I would decrease it's active time from 180 seconds to 120 seconds or something similar, and also have it reduce the noise of your grunts of pain by 100%, or something close to 100%. It would deactivate sooner but it's effect would be really strong.
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@EuphoricBliss35 said:
Are you joking? Do you play killer? Do you know who survivor sided this game is already and you want STRONGER perks @SkeletalElite come on now
We can instaheal in lockers and pick up pallets now. Force to killer to break a pallet, can’t bloodlust you. It’s already kinda crazy. I don’t see killers with a perk to instabreak a pallet before it’s dropped
Buffing weak perks won't make survivors stronger, it will just give them more viable options for perks. Buffing meta perks I guess would make survivors stronger, but if these weaker perks don't get buffed, survivors just run other perks that are already really strong.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/923181#Comment_923181
How are solo queue expected to survive against killers that crush swf? Use your brain dude
But there is no killer that crushes swf survivors.
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Wait, I'm pretty sure the car loops at the outside of the school are all perfectly mindgameable. Also, I don't think you can really run around the window loop 3 times, it's not that strong in my experience. The two pallets in the school can be very strong though, that's for sure. But I feel like there are much stronger buildings in the game.
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@PoisonN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/922762#Comment_922762
Yes, I think that people think about survivors too much and forgot about the killers enjoyment
I guess some survivor mains do, but I'm sure many people, including ScottJund, are just trying to think about both sides, and not just one side.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/922352#Comment_922352
Theres quite afew differences really. Last year has a class system with each person being able to make different things according to their class. Since this naturally makes you more reliant on your teammates, theres in-game coms. Its also time based instead of life based. The killer CAN win by killing everyone, but since a survivor being killed off is just temporary and can be brought back into play after a short time out period by their teammates no matter how many times they die... The killer is mostly just trying to stall the survivors for time until the timelimit is up.
Yep it's very different, got the game today and am eager to try it out.
I think in one of Monto's video I heard him say that when playing the game on steam there is no voice chat in game. Though I might have understood him totally wrong. But yeah coms will be adventagous in this game as well, one of the reasons I hope people don't start with wanting the game to become competitive. It looks like a fun game that is not oriented around winning or losing at all.
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I still enjoy playing him, but once the flick is back, even with the 90 degree limitation, he'll be more fun to play.
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Do you mean when your power is not active? When he is just an M1 killer?
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@FriendlyGuy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/920520#Comment_920520
Nurse is unfun af. Oni is unfun now. SWF groups are a problem for a long time, but bad nerfs and reworks are a part of the problem too imo.
I get the problem with Nurse. But at least Oni is getting changed, hopefully in a patch very soon, so he'll be more fun again. He'll definitely be viable after the next hotfix, for sure. And the game still has a good amount of viable killers.
I think fixing the sound bug could maybe get more people to play killer again as well. I'm a bit disappointed they haven't fixed this issue in one of their hotfixes yet.
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@Aki_Devil said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/922443#Comment_922443
Then everyone who bodyblocks can get a penalty
Leatherface is underpowered? I think you're making a really bad joke lol. As I said, chainsaw lasts for so long and comes real fast, and BBQ and Chili exists as well.
Once you learn more about the game and understand the strengths and weaknesses of killers better, I think you'll also realise that Leatherface isn't very strong. But if you stick with your opinion, that's fine. It's just not me who is saying this though, most people seem to agree that he is pretty weak. He has nothing to help him with map pressure, and his chainsaw, while it can insta down, doesn't help him catch survivors at loops.
And while I think Bodyblocking is fine, in fact it's more frequently helpful for survivors than for killers, I'm curious as to what penalties you have in mind?
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@PoisonN said:
I thought Scott liked these type of killers. I mean, the ridiculous ones. Now Oni is "fun" and he has counterplay!! Just turn right or left 4head
He simply seems to like the type of killers who are strong, but have counterplay. Which is how killers should be. He still wants them to be viable. But there's nothing wrong to also think about the enjoyment of survivors when going against a killer.
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Pretty much everyone agrees that Leatherface is underpowered, giving him a cooldown would be the worst decision BHVR could make. Especially now that multiple killers have seen nerfs.
Billy is a very balanced killer in my opinion. Fast map travel and an instadown doesn't make pallets or windows useless in any way. Survivors still have the defenses they need against those killers. Windows and pallets are particularly good at denying chainsaw killers their one shot against you, since they have to charge their chainsaw, which gives you time to use a pallet or vault against them. If there is anything that can occasionally be a problem, it's BS hitboxes.
Camping sucks, I agree, I would definitely like to see a nerf to camping in the future. Bodyblocking I don't see a problem with at all. Especially since survivors can also bodyblock a killer.
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Survivors aren't the power role anymore.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/920967#Comment_920967
Last year also has a series of events as opposed to one constant event, and its maps follow that. Each area of the map is designed for the event you have to do at that moment.
That's true. Haven't actually played the game myself yet, only watched Monto play the game. But it looks really fun, I just hope they community won't go crazy about wanting that game balanced to be competitive as well. Cause that won't be possible, I'm quite sure.
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I feel like they try and balance the game at all ranks. Not only high ranks, but they do include high ranks as well when balancing the game. There are enough killers right now that are viable at high ranks, at least in my opinion. But they can't just balance the game around high ranks because that could potentially really screw over lower ranks.
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@LetsPlayTogether said:
In high ranks the game is survivor sided, thats why the kill rates increase in there, right?
Kill rates don't show how a game's balance is. It's definitely something that needs to be considered when balancing a game, but it's not fully representative of the game's balance.
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These two games are very different though. DBD has a certain style of map design, so every map works in a balanced way with the mechanics of the game. I feel like DBD has a much more streamlined design, which makes it function more as a competitive game. I don't think DBD is really competitive, but it certainly has it's traits of a competitive game.
Last Year on the other hand just seems much more like an actual horror game, except that killers are played by people as well. It's not competitive in any way, and I'd say it has therefore much more freedom in map design.
I do agree that the visual design and atmosphere of DBD could be really improved.
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Yeah I wonder that too. It was a unique tileset, so it's a real shame that it was removed. Especially since it wasn't that crazy or anything for survivors. A good loop, but not better than many others. Really wish we would get it back.
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Because for balancing reasons I guess. Just imagine you could remove the power of Myers or Oni with one pallet stun. Might as well just throw them into the trash bin at that point.
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@Liruliniel said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/919756#Comment_919756
Last time it took them almost a year to fix sound issues. My hope's are below the floorboards in expectations for that.
Oh boy. But I don't think it has ever been this bad. Like even on interior maps I can't hear any footsteps of running survivors now, and I feel like that was never a problem before. I really hope they don't need so long to fix this bug this time. Especially since such a bug shouldn't actually be reintroduced so often.
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I'm gonna hope they fix the sound bug for killers in the upcoming hotfix, that might get more people to play killer again. I do get that top tier killers have receieved some small nerfs, but it's really not that bad. I don't see how Spirit or Nurse are not viable anymore. I do understand that Nurse isn't fun to play as though, which hopefully will be looked at in the future, and that Spirit can't really hear any footsteps of running survivors at the moment.
Oni will also get some of his flick back again in the next hotifx, which I hope will be here soon. I do think the devs need to look at the weaker killers from now on and try to buff those.
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@SpookyJeff said:
My problem with considering Kindred/NoLB a buff to solo survivors is you're sacrificing a perk slot that SWF don't have to, so it's still a huge disadvantage to be only running 3/4 of the perks a SWF group can. There isn't really a solution to this balance-wise because the devs aren't going to start banning people for running discord, so we just have to accept that solo survivor has and always will suck.
Well the best solution would be to add kindred to the game's base kit. Balance wise at least.
I wouldn't say solo survivor sucks though. They still have the potential to do just as good as good swf groups, it's just harder and less likely, sadly. Still enjoying solo survivor regardless.
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@Zoldyar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/906207#Comment_906207
"Well I'm not saying that it's totally dependent on certain what if conditions whether you can counterplay Oni or not, but that it affects his counterplay. Maps in general have many loops though, a lot of them close together, so survivors do often have some kind of counterplay. From my experience though, it's just that Oni has counterplay as well, turning some loops into a bit of a mindgame."
You are said before that it does depend on the situation.
Most maps that does have loops close together are usually unsafe pallets.
The killer can also mind game as well and has a higher rate of succeeding due to additional movement speed and e.t.c
"Also, to be fair, if you can see a way to how you could have countered Oni in a video, than that shows that he does have counterplay in that situation. I do get that it's impossible for the Dwight to have known to do this, but that's the point. Oni doesn't necessarily have to rely on survivors making mistakes, he has his own counterplay against survivors, while the survivors still also have counterplay against Oni. So it can turn a bit into a mindgame as to how to dodge Oni when he is dashing at you, forcing survivors to try and predict his actions and act accordingly to their predictions. So yeah, I understand that it's hard for survivors in situations like the situation that Dwight was in in the video, but if you can spot counterplay, than that means the survivor did have counterplay in that situation."
There way videos that supposedly said you can counter spirit, but she still got nerf. This is usually because the player using the killer was either bad or just didn't know how to use her.
You can't dodge oni while he is dashing at you, unless you are are at a good spot.
Then couldn't you also say the same thing to the killer about how he could have improve if the dwight down what you say?
"In another video of Scottjund, he did say that the devs wanted to restrict his flick to 90 degrees. But I don't know where he has this information from, and perhaps I didn't understand him correctly. But as I said, the one known issue about Oni that was written below the patch notes by Peanits, I believe is referring to Onis flick and that it can turn too good if you bind the left and right action to e and q."
Not_Queen who is a mod and worker for dbd, discussed about his flick and how players capable of doing more than a 90* degree turn is unacceptable. So now they patch it to make it so it is only a 90° degree.
"Personally I think he is fine the way he is, but I wouldn't mind if his flick got nerfed. The only two worries I have is that for one, it might lower his skill ceiling a tiny bit, and that it might make his lunge after his dash a bit redundant in most cases. I could also see people be unhappy with this change since his flick is fun to use. But personally I probably wouldn't mind it."
I can understand what you are saying and have no problem to your opinion because people are entitled to have one.
Counterplay depends on the situation you are in against any killer. If you are at a side of a map where no pallets are left, any killer will get you. The difference is that Oni is much more powerful than other killers. Doesn't mean he has no counterplay. That's why stealth also exists, which is a counterplay against any killer.
Also, the only maps I can think of that usually have mindgameable pallets close to each other are the Badham maps and Hawkins. The majority of maps still have many safe pallets relatively close to each other, depending on rng of course. Macmillan or Autoheaven maps have many safe pallet loops that often spawn quite close together. Also, mindgameable loops I believe can be a bit better against Oni, since his lunge, even though it can go farther than a normal lunge, is also slower than a normal lunge, making it harder for him to mindgame at certain mindgameable pallets while his power is active than for killers with a normal lunge. Whether his dash can help at these mindgameable loops, I believe depends on the structure of the loop.
To be fair though, if most maps usually would only have mindgameable pallets close to each other, than that wouldn't change anything though, or? Because having only these pallets at your disposal, doesn't mean a survivor has no counterplay, it only means the killer also has counterplay. Of course disregarding that Oni has a slightly harder time counterplaying mindgameable loops because of his slower normal lunge while his power is active. The devs want to rework maps like this anyways, have maps with more pallets in general, but less of them are safe and more of them are mindgameable. Which honestly, if anything could hurt Oni when his power is active, because pallets would be closer to each other, giving survivors a higher chance to reach a pallet before Oni catches up with his dash, and because of Onis slower lunge.
Regarding the video and the counterplay I explained, the Oni player we see in that video is definitely not bad. If you can tell me some way that Ohtofu could have played that situation to allow for no counterplay, than I would agree. But I don't think there was a way to play Oni in that situation to guarantee that the survivor could not have counterplay there. The part I am talking about is at 26:05 just so you know. I thought you linked me the video showing me that part exactly, but now I feel like that was a mistake, so you probably didn't even know what example I was talking about.
Very importantly to note, of course you can look at the video and try and tell if the killer could also have reacted to the counterplay the survivor could have done. But that just means the killer has actual counterplay, not that the killer is uncounterable.
I'll explain with an example. Let's say the killer is chasing a survivor at a T-L wall. When the survivor gets into the situation where they are about to fast vault one of the windows, there are two options. Either vault the window, or do not vault the window. If you predict that the killer will turn around and go to the other side of the window, you shouldn't vault the window, but if you are predicting that he will not do this, or if you are predicting that he will predict you to not vault the window, than you should vault the window. Now you could say that when the survivor vaults the window, a killer should turn back to the side you are vaulting to, which will allow him to get a hit against you. If you don't vault the window, of course the right thing to do as killer is to just keep going forward and get a hit against a survivor that way.
However, this does not mean the survivor has no counterplay because the killer has ways to get a hit against you in either of these situations, but only that the killer also has counterplay, turning it into a mindgame. In the case of videos, if you can spot how a survivor could have played differently to counterplay the killer, of course that doesn't 100% mean there is counterplay for sure. But, if there is no counterplay, than that would mean that a killer could have played it differently so he could have gotten a hit against a survivor no matter what the survivor did. Something that I don't feel is the case within the example I was talking about. Then again I am now noticing you probably don't know what part in the video I was talking about, which was my mistake.
To be fair, this discussion has become a bit pointless anyways now. The devs have nerfed the lunge a lot, but will be buffing it back a bit in order to attain a fair middle ground, and I think after the next Hotfix Oni will be in a great spot.
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@knell said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/916034#Comment_916034
I read your post. That’s good clarification to know. But as a data analyst for the past 15 years or so I am comfortable that the red rank killers (at the start of the match) were in matches with red and purple rank survivors most of the time. I don’t believe that some small amount of lower ranks would skew the data enough to make an impact.
Can you prove that? As in, can you prove that the majority of the matches consisted of ONLY Red/Purple Rank survivors (and not, for example, majority consisting of SWF groups with SOME Green/Yellow/Grey survivors?)
Bear in mind the clarification means there are also times when a rank 4 killer was going against rank 1 survivors. The exceptions wouldn’t all be ones that make getting a high kill rate easier.
That's true. Like you say, the highest ranked survivors that a Rank 4 Killer can go up against are 4 Rank 1 Survivors. But the lowest ranked survivors that the same Rank 4 Killer can go up against are 4 Rank 10 Survivors (in all solo group.) If it is a SWF, the lowest ranked survivors that a Rank 4 Killer can go up against are 1 Rank 10 Survivor and 3 Rank 20 Survivors. So even looking at simply the variety of "exceptions" that are possible, it seems to much more favor higher kill rates than if it is simply a statistical data set of "real" Red Rank Matches, in which all 5 players are in the red ranks.
And honestly, come on... the “all ranks” data was basically the same. We all see the same numbers and we all play this game and know the data is true. 3k average.
Yeah, I really have no interest in the "all ranks" data. My only concern was in finding even a semblance of what the skill ceilings are on both sides. After all, that is how most games are generally balanced - at the top first, then down. So, to me personally, it was disappointing that BHVR couldn't provide even the idea of that - and even more disappointing that they weren't more honest and clear in how they gathered their data.
My main point is you can’t just jack up ease of pipping for survivors and say “hey. It’s asymmetrical horror. You’ll just die every game but you’ll rank up”.
You're absolutely right. In fact, I'd argue that pipping and ranking should be much more difficult on both sides. There is too much skill disparity even among the red ranks for both killers and survivors - where I'd argue that most people in red ranks currently probably shouldn't be in the red ranks. It's as if the 'time-played' dictates more about the rank than the actual skill of the players. As a casual, averaged-skill player, I should never be in the Red Ranks, but there I am. This does indeed make data-gathering for "best players" even more difficult.
A 4 man team should have the same chance of all escaping as the killer has to 4k. Thus it should average out at an appx 50% kill rate. And killer perception of win and pipping should adjust accordingly.
Again, you are right that a 4 man survivor team and its killer opponent should both have an average of 2 Kill/2 Escape rate if they are of the same skill level. In order to do that, BHVR should look closely at the very top skill level on both sides (for survivors and each of the killers) and make sure that on average, 2 Kill/2 Escape Ratio is maintained. If a perfect, gen-rushing, voice com 4-SWF survivors have more than a 2 Escape average against a perfect kill-focused Trapper, then Trapper should be buffed. If a perfect, gen-rushing, voice com 4-SWF survivors have less than a 2 Escape average against a perfect kill-focused Nurse, then the Nurse needs to be nerfed. From that point on, BHVR should balance the game downwards so that similarly skilled survivors can be matched together.
That kind of balancing can't fully work in a game like DBD. Especially because of the gap between solo and swf survivors. You can't try and balance the game around the absolute optimal 4 man swf groups, at least not until solo survivors receive buffs to close the gap between solo and swf survivors.
But even then, survivors depend on each other, while a killer doesn't have to depend on anyone. Just one survivors who is not up to par with the other survivors and the killer can really screw the other survivors up. So it makes sense to me if the absolute best of the best survivor teams have a bigger chance of winning than a killer who is equally skilled. Just because it takes four people to play optimal on the survivor team, but only one player on the killer side.
Also, in games like Overwatch that are balanced in particular around the best players, both sides have always access to the same characters and the same potential team play. If some character in a game like Overwatch is balanced at high ranks but is op at lower ranks, that's not as bad since both sides still have access to that character. This is not the case in DBD. An overpowered killer at lower ranks is therefore a bigger problem.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
your not considering the fact that that data also counted DC, mori's, all ranks, and wither or not it was a swf. True and ozt play this game for a living and are very skilled, more so than the majority of the killer player base and it shows. What do you think happens when a extremely skilled killer goes up against only averaged red rank players? They get destroyed because the killer isn't making mistakes, however put them against 4 extremely skilled survivors and the tables turn and the killer is only getting 1 and if luck 2 kills.
Actually I believe Peanits said that matches in which any player DC'd were disregarded. I'm guessing that's not the case with matches where survivors suicide on hook, but still. Just wanted to point it out.
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You mean while you are still in the unhook animation, so where the survivor getting unhooked still has invulnerability? If so, then I agree, that shouldn't be removed. Sadly didn't know this was a thing until just now.
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@Sleephartha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/915928#Comment_915928
I read your post. That’s good clarification to know. But as a data analyst for the past 15 years or so I am comfortable that the red rank killers (at the start of the match) were in matches with red and purple rank survivors most of the time. I don’t believe that some small amount of lower ranks would skew the data enough to make an impact.
Bear in mind the clarification means there are also times when a rank 4 killer was going against rank 1 survivors. The exceptions wouldn’t all be ones that make getting a high kill rate easier.
And honestly, come on... the “all ranks” data was basically the same. We all see the same numbers and we all play this game and know the data is true. 3k average.
My main point is you can’t just jack up ease of pipping for survivors and say “hey. It’s asymmetrical horror. You’ll just die every game but you’ll rank up”. A 4 man team should have the same chance of all escaping as the killer has to 4k. Thus it should average out at an appx 50% kill rate. And killer perception of win and pipping should adjust accordingly.
The problem is that survivors depend on each other, while killers don't have to depend on anyone. One bad survivor can screw over three good survivors sometimes. That's why these kill rates stats aren't a full representation of the game's balance, and why these stats don't prove that this game is in any way killer biased.
Especially since people of different skill levels can get to red ranks because it's not only about skill, but about how much you play the game with the current pipping system.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/916013#Comment_916013
I never said using stats as a full representation of the game's balance was a good thing. In fact, that's one of many problems I have with OP but that doesn't discredit what they're trying to say.
I didn't mean to accuse you, I just wanted to point out high escape rates also wouldn't be representative of the game's balance. Since OP who you responded to seems to think these stats are facts for killers being op, if only from a gameplay aspect.
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"Bruh" won't make your point as well. I said that I think hook distribution is fine the way it is now, as killers have a tight time limit and having a survivor escape your grasp is huge. And then you brought up gen speed.
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@Unironicalygoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/915988#Comment_915988
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/915988#Comment_915988
Very valid point I agree and it is hard to deny hooks to a killer already I just think it should be possible
Well it kinda is. Flashlight saves are one way, and if you get lucky and the killer isn't too close to any hook when picking a survivor up, bodyblocking is also helpful. Especially when all 3 survivors are bodyblocking, though that would mean nobody is working on gens in that moment.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/915917#Comment_915917
People deny facts when they don't support their view. If stats said 80% escape rate guess who would be invoking the stats in every post.
And they'd be wrong to use these stats as a full representation of the game's balance as well.
Also, many people say that these stats simply don't represent the game's balance perfectly, since there are factors that influence these stats. Of course they can't be ignored and need to be considered as well when balancing the game.