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ad19970
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@Venom368 said:
"Winning" is inherently subjective in this game. The ranking system & emblems give somewhat of a structure, but that's it.
Sure you can call a 4k a win for killer. You can call surviving a win for that survivor, or a 0k a win for the survivors. But it doesn't matter. All that matters is if you enjoyed playing the match. Stats mean nothing about the experience I have when playing either role.
I know when I'm having fun when playing the game, and when I'm not. I can die and still have fun. I can 4k and feel like a scumbag. This is not a competitive game. I think too many people have the mindset that they need to win. If you arent having fun, play differently or play a different game.
I think the game is more balanced now than it's ever been, and I have fun in both roles. It seems to me that more than 80% of the community has more fun playing survivor rather than killer, though. Otherwise there wouldnt be 15 minute survivor queue times, right?
Something that does surprise me. Not too long ago, killer queue times were longer than survivor queue times in general. I get that Nurse and Spirit were nerfed, but both of these killers are still really strong.
I'm still enjoying killer as much as survivor personally. Maybe it's the bugged sound that is driving some killer players away from the game. I do really hope this gets fixed as soon as possible now.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/915976#Comment_915976
Slightly changing gen speeds has the same positive effects as slightly changing hook distance
I still don't really get what this has to do with gen speed. Since there's no talk of increasing gen times.
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@Unironicalygoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/915947#Comment_915947
Killers should be able to get denied its not fair that I can be camped and tunneld and slugged to avoid ds also directly oplosing survivors objective to survive with no penalty the least I should be able to do is body block sabi with breakout and buy my teammate for a couole extra seconds
I have to disagree, it needs to be really hard to deny a killer a hook because they are on a very tight time limit. Killers lose a lot of time if a survivor escapes their grasp.
Also, a killer camping does not stop survivors from doing their objective, in fact it allows the other three survivors to do gens without being disturbed. In fact, the harder you make it to hook a survivor for killers, the more killers will be incentivised to camp, since they will be more uncertain if they can hook the next survivor they down.
With that said, I really do hope the devs will eventually come up with a way of nerfing camping that can't be abused so it is less discouraged, but that's a different topic.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/915964#Comment_915964
Gen speeds are fine the way they are?
What? Wait what? What does gen speeds have to do with this?
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@MarsAttacks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/915951#Comment_915951
Eh good survivors aren't going to care it's only a slight hindrance the strategy would be the same power through it
Good survivors perhaps, but it might get too overwhelming for survivors that are not that experienced.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/915947#Comment_915947
I said .1 meter. They'll be fine bud
Well then why even change it? I think the distribution of hooks is fine the way it is.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/915919#Comment_915919
CI needs no love. It's already better than Ruin doesn't need a buff
I don't know, I don't think that perk is that good, but it does very much depend on the killer you are playing.
I wouldn't mind if it only deactivated once one generator was repaired, but I just feel like having Ruin up while you only need to patrol four gens from the get go would be a bit extreme.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/915873#Comment_915873
It wouldn't change much for killer but as survivor I would like it if taking hits had an impact. too many times has the wiggle bar been 95+%. Maybe just .1 of a meter would be nice
The problem is that hooking survivors is the killers objective. And not making it to a hook in time so that the survivor can escape the killers grasp hurts the killer a lot, in a game where gens can get repaired very fast. Denying a killer their objective is something that should barely ever happen.
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@Blueberry said:
I was kinda advocating for something similar to where it lasted until 1 gen was completed. This would make it a pseudo early game 3 gen strat. This would also remove the issue you referred to where good teams just wait it out while doing nothing and you wasted a perk slot.
This would actually be a really good idea. I just fear it would be too good when stacking with Ruin. I get that you can go look for and try to find the totem, but sometimes it's hidden in a really good spot, and generator progress would just stall like crazy in that case, hurting all kind of survivor teams except maybe the best of the best.
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I personally have to disagree. I think this game is in a good spot balance wise. I don't think this game is killer biased at all, however, I also don't think it's survivors biased, as some people still seem to believe.
What does hurt solo survivors is the matchmaking, and especially the pipping system, which allows survivors of very different skill levels to climb up to red ranks. The new changes to rank reset will make things worse. They really need to improve on the pipping system, since that's very important in a game where 1 bad survivor can screw up three other good survivors. Which is probably also one reason as to why kill rates are probably so high, and why these statistics are not fully representative of this game's balance.
They also really need to start buffing solo survivors more to close the gap between solo and swf survivors, which would also then allow them to be able to balance killers better.
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It should be basekit, it would be one of the most important steps to make in order to balance out the gap between solo and swf survivors.
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I mean at times it is more beneficial for the killer to not break the pallet. In case of Yui's perk though, I'd say that's good. That means the perk can be useful, and isn't just another useless perk no one will ever use.
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It sucks, yes, and I wish the devs would try and nerf camping to make it even less viable so that it is dicouraged even more. Solo survivors suffer from camping killers much more than swf survivors, which I think is horrible.
I know people always bring up that one time where they tried nerfing it and it could be abused by survivors. But obviously you could just try improve on the nerf to a point where it can't be abused. And I'm pretty sure there would be a way to nerf camping without it allowing survivors to abuse the nerf.
Not sure how much priority I would give this change though, since I feel BHVR really needs to take a look at and buff weaker killers now after the nerfs to multiple killers, but camping is definitely something I really hope the devs will take a look at in the future as well.
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This sounds great. Currently, he is still able to turn 180 degree with his dash lunge, but only at the very end of the lunge, where you suddenly get insane sensitivity again. I guess that will be fixed as well then, and instead he'll be able to turn faster but only up to 90 degrees?
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@arslaN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/911039#Comment_911039
Stop whining already .They are going to release another hotfix
Did they say there was going to be a third hotfix before the Mid-chapter patch? Because the sound bug is quite a deal at times and hurts killers.
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@Peanits said:
Have you considered combining it with other effects? Toss on swing chains and you've got up to 12%. Thanataphobia can add up to another 16% (total of 28%), and Dying Light can raise that up even further. And that's only considering action speed modifiers, you could also slap Ruin and PGTW on to slow generators down even more.
On it's own, it's no big deal. But stacking everything together makes it way too much.
But wouldn't it have been better to nerf it's stacking potential? Because now the addons are still fine when stacking it with other slowdown effects, but on their own they are pretty useless. I feel like a general action speed debuff cap or just not letting these addons stack with other action speed debuff effects would have been the better option. Then they would have still been somewhat useful on their own.
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I'm pretty sure they won't get rid of the one shot potential, nor will they reduce the turning of his demon dash. I do believe the mobility he has during his dash is what makes him so incredibly fun, and reducing that would hurt him way too much.
However, you can make him turn near instantly during your lunge out of his Demon Dash, when binding the left and right actions to q and e. Which can be really insane. And this is unintentional as far as I understand, so that will probably be fixed. Not sure about this though. I personally think that's the only change Oni still needs.
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@Widowmaker8197 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/907286#Comment_907286
Wraith literally gets increased movement speed, no terror radius, and near invisibility with his power. How is this weak?
LF gets to instadown survivors with his chainsaw. Not weak at all.
Legion is a God at buying time by forcing survivors to mend and heal. That's two health states they have to heal.
The Plague could use a buff or two yeah.
The pig gets a 0 terror radius, lunge attack, and takes a survivor out of the game for a bit by giving them a reverse bear trap.
I see many people, even in red ranks, step in trapper traps these days. It could take anywhere from 1 try to 7 tries to get out of a trap AND the trap leaves you injured if you do manage to get out.
The demogorgon is kind of weak I agree.
Myers being weak is a joke. I'm not even going to try to explain this one.
The reason people find killers like Wraith or Leatherface weak is because their power doesn't help in chases or at least at loops. I do think Wraith doesn't need any real buffs if we will be getting more map reworks. If maps have more mindgameable pallet loops and less safe ones, I think this would make Wraith fairly good.
But Leatherface, he's really not very strong right now. Sure an insta down can always be good, but it's useless at loops and he also has no map pressure.
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@DaGreenBolt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/669156#Comment_669156
Yes this should be included, also if we gave the new kindred as basekit for survivors, it would basically make them have the same info as SWF. This would dramatically improve the solo experience.
(I run kindred a lot ever since the new kindred came out, and its very good.)
Yes I fully agree. And killers can then be better balanced around swf survivors.
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I would really hope for this not to be the case honestly. I don't see how swf is so intimidating to people that they would just stop playing killer. I'm playing at red ranks and enjoying the game.
I do still believe that DBD was never meant to be a competitive game. And it still isn't that much. The problem is that online games nowadays seemingly need to be at least somewhat competitive in order to not die, because gaming has become really big and there are so many people that just take games way too seriously. It's either win or go crazy for some people. That's just my view on this though.
I do think the next step BHVR needs to take is to buff solo survivors in numerous ways so they get most of the inormation swf survivors have, and then buff killers in different aspects, those aspects that have been made weaker due to survivors having more information, and buffing the killers who struggle with swf survivors at the moment.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/906285#Comment_906285
I'd thought of this a while back and I think it would be an interesting thing to try. Some perks like Discordance would be way more appealing if that were the case (maybe too meta), and others might be a bit crazy (Ruin when you're trying to work on a generator with multiple people who aren't great at skill checks would be a yikes). It would be neat to try, though. Disrupting a generator with three people on it means three people doing nothing for a while, whereas normally disrupting one person on a generator means everyone else is working on other generators as efficiently as possible.
But it would cause another imbalance between solo and swf survivors, wouldn't it? Because swf can tell each other on what generator they are at. So for this to work generators would need to have their aura revealed to all survivors if one survivors is working on that gen. It would potentially also make tunneling more viable, since it is much less likely that you have multiple survivors working on one gen if one survivors is dead.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/907046#Comment_907046
Aside from not wasting time healing, you can still dodge his club and loop him. If you’re a stealth player then you should heal though.
You are constantly making sure there are 100 Blood Orbs on the map though when not healing, which can allow him to have his power up very frequently and apply a lot of map pressure with his dash.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
Why are people acting like it's easy to avoid an m1? Isn't m1ing the thing most killers do to win? Last time I checked killers often win.
I don't think anyone is saying it's easy to avoid an m1. Of course, when the killer is right behind you, you won't be able to avoid his normal attack.
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@Zoldyar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/905430#Comment_905430
A counterplay shouldn't really be dependent on something to happen for you to counter it. It should be something that is clear and can be countered by the killer, not a what if situation. Otherwise spirirt wouldn't have been nerf.
Obviously, it's easy to tell people how to improve if you are watching them. The killer putting pressure on them by the constant thought of if you mess up once you are dead could easily lead to rank 1 players making mistakes like that (in fact they do).
I'm referencing his lunge attack not demon dash where it grants him the extra boost of distance, similar to leatherface when using his chainsaw.
Scott Jund mention thay his turn got nerf, but you can still pull of a 180 degrees turn with a customise keyboard. I don't know rather he is talking about base keyboard or customise.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-xUd5opqtGM
1:20
Yeah it is a reference to his flick in the end which is why his turning got nerf.
Well I'm not saying that it's totally dependent on certain what if conditions whether you can counterplay Oni or not, but that it affects his counterplay. Maps in general have many loops though, a lot of them close together, so survivors do often have some kind of counterplay. From my experience though, it's just that Oni has counterplay as well, turning some loops into a bit of a mindgame.
Also, to be fair, if you can see a way to how you could have countered Oni in a video, than that shows that he does have counterplay in that situation. I do get that it's impossible for the Dwight to have known to do this, but that's the point. Oni doesn't necessarily have to rely on survivors making mistakes, he has his own counterplay against survivors, while the survivors still also have counterplay against Oni. So it can turn a bit into a mindgame as to how to dodge Oni when he is dashing at you, forcing survivors to try and predict his actions and act accordingly to their predictions. So yeah, I understand that it's hard for survivors in situations like the situation that Dwight was in in the video, but if you can spot counterplay, than that means the survivor did have counterplay in that situation.
In another video of Scottjund, he did say that the devs wanted to restrict his flick to 90 degrees. But I don't know where he has this information from, and perhaps I didn't understand him correctly. But as I said, the one known issue about Oni that was written below the patch notes by Peanits, I believe is referring to Onis flick and that it can turn too good if you bind the left and right action to e and q.
Personally I think he is fine the way he is, but I wouldn't mind if his flick got nerfed. The only two worries I have is that for one, it might lower his skill ceiling a tiny bit, and that it might make his lunge after his dash a bit redundant in most cases. I could also see people be unhappy with this change since his flick is fun to use. But personally I probably wouldn't mind it.
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Stealth is good. If a killer is coming to the gen you are repairing, and you succesfully hide from him, you just made him waste time coming to your gen and having to go to another one. Often killers will search for you around the gen if they know somebody has been working on the gen, and the longer they don't find you, the more time they are wasting doing nothing. At least when the killer is chasing a survivor, they are making some kind of progress by injuring survivors or getting rid of pallets.
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I agree that there are still a few too many maps with too many pallet loops at which many killers have no counterplay at.
But in general I do not really find this game to be survivor sided anymore. It was once, but not anymore. The devs did an overall good job at balancing this game up until now, even if the balancing feels a little slow at times.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/905477#Comment_905477
odds are SOMEONE will get caught sure. But you are not 4 Survivors, you are 1 Survivor. So when that 1 person is being camped ignore them and do gens. If they truly hate campers as much as you do then they will keep struggling to buy every second they can.
Yes that's true, I just wondered if he actually meant to not get caught during the entire match. Thing is, it's just no fun being camped because it prevents you from playing the game entirely, which is something that is awful in any video game. I get that it's impossible to totally prevent camping, but I do think more counterplay against the strategy of camping is always welcome. I still believe the devs could nerf camping to discourage that strategy even more without survivors being able to abuse that nerf.
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@aknitus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/901445#Comment_901445
You may be right, and while I dont agree with hillbilly and oni being balanced killers, I am cool with their powers. What's most frustrating is that Oni can pick up blood drops from healthy survs. I just played a game where i rescued this surv from the hook and ran north while the other ran south. I hopped quietly into the locker and after about 10-15 secs, the killer comes over to where I am, looks around, picks a blood drop with his hand (I was like #########, I am perfectly healthy) and goes to my locker. What happened next is not relevant.
This stuff needs fixing.
- Blood drops from healthy survs - needs to be fixed
- Blood drops leading to a trail to where survs ran - needs to be balanced
- Blood fury farming complete within every 20 seconds - needs to be balanced
I sincerely hope you guys dont say that the above 3 points dont need fixing/balancing and that it still is perfectly balanced.
I mean Oni should not need too long to regain his power otherwise he'll just be way too easily gen rushed whenever he doesn't have his power, so I personally think it's fine the way it is. Of course the first point needs fixing, didn't even notice this was an issue. Also, I find the fact that Oni has absolutely no power when his power is deactivated balances the tracking potential thanks to Blood Orbs out. Especially since these Orbs can also be misleading once many have spawned on the map.
I do think Oni has counterplay when his power is active. Pallet loops and loops in general still work against him, with the differnce being that he has counterplay against survivors as well at certain loops. His lunge will be nerfed though via a bug fix, at least as far as I understand from the Known Issue of him that is listed under the patch post.
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@The_Second_Coming said:
Don't get caught, then.
And before you say anything - yes, not getting caught is fairly easy, being that DBD is extremely survivor sided.
Don't get caught when you are getting unhooked and the killer is right at the hook? Yes I get it, then don't just unhook the survivor, but being camped isn't fun at all.
Or do you mean you shouldn't get caught at all so the killer doesn't get a single hook? Because it's not possible for 4 survivors to not be found until they repair all 5 gens, and if the killer is good, someone will go down soon enough. This game is not survivor sided anymore.
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@anarchy753 said:
"The classic counterplay of pallets and windows."
More than half the cast of the killers move at the same speed as him and have to deal with pallets and windows WITHOUT being able to cross the entire map, one hit down, have almost 100% uptime on those abilities and have insane control over them, and they get by.
Arguing that a killer with an ridiculous potential for a very low skill requirement like Oni has is balanced because "windows and pallets exist" is just naive.
Him being able to traverse the map extremely quickly and his one shot down potential doesn't really affect how his dash is at loops. That's map pressure and being able to down a survivor with one hit, not two. Yes his map pressure is extremely good, but outside of his power, it's awful, which balances his power in my opinion.
I also do not think it is true that he has almost 100% uptime on his power, unless survivors go down like 5 seconds after he activates his power, and that every time he activates it. He definitely needs to spend time in his normal weak form as well when facing good survivors.
I also disagree that has insane control over his dash. It's far better than Billy, no doubt, but it's not good. The turning is not good enough for his dash to help against normal pallet loops. He needs a strong power since it isn't active all the time, or he'd just be another unviable killer. I get that his chase and map pressure is really good, but it's awful when he doesn't have his power.
I explained in my thread post though why I think survivors do have counterplay at loops against him and how they can prolong chases enough to waste enough of his power to have a good chance at winning against a good Oni, and how one of the main differences to some other killers is that he also has counterplay at some loops. He's definitely strong, but because of his downtime where he has almost no power at all I think he is balanced. His flick will be nerfed though I believe due to a bug making it better than intended, so that's something.
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@Zoldyar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/904302#Comment_904302
He can still turn in a 180 degree if you customise your control.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rO3_0OFm-Gw
There is also Monto a YouTuber/steamer on dead by daylight who shown the Oni being able to adjust the direction he is moving at. They slightly nerf it to where it doesnt turn instantly like it did before, but you can still turn it to a 180 degree angle, just slower.
I don't disagree much on certain loops with his demon dash activated. But he is still capable of using his one shot power with the extra lunge it provide, making it still deadly with or without loop.
There at perks such as strioder and whisper killers can use to locate suriviors. If the oni is a smart player he can save enough blood to enter his demon dash. Then use the blood orbs to locate a surivior before entering it.
His power isn't uncounterable (depending on how good the oni and the map's rng), but it is very hard and relies on a lot of pallets with mind game able loops (Then again the killer chances of winning the mind game is way higher and fatal than the surivior).
Yeah he can dash around loops like jungle gyms if they are big enough, I agree. It's hard to tell how much counterplay Oni has at every loop. In this case the clip you showed me of Dwight getting downed at the jungly gym, I do feel like he could have taken the inner loop of the jungle jym. Oni would not have been able to turn during his dash tight enough meaning at the corner where the window is, he would have had to use his lunge, and in this case I think Dwight would have been far enough away to not get hit by the lunge anymore.
Also, if the Dwight in that clip would have only had a slightly bigger distance to Oni, he would have probably not be hit by that 180 degree lunge anymore. That's what I mean with the possible counterplay against Oni even at jungle gyms, and why I wrote that counterplay is dependent on the distance between you as a survivor and the Oni when reaching another loop, from which direction you are approaching the loop and from which direction the Oni is dashing towards the loop.
And at most of the normal pallet loops that maps have many of, his dash simply doesn't turn tight enough to be a help at those. In those cases his strength comes from when he can break the pallet because he can catch up quicker thanks to his dash. But as I said, it's important for him to be really strong when his power is up and have a good chance of downing a survivor, or he'd end up as another unviable killer.
I'm not sure if you are referring to the actual dash, or the lunge after the dash though. I'm not sure if this true, but I saw a video of ScottJund where he said that they want to restrict the lunge after his dash to turn a maximum of 90 degree, so downs like the one against Dwight shown in the video won't be possible anyways anymore. Maybe I understood him wrong though, and I don't know where he has that information from.
Among known issues there is also this:
"The Oni can rotate faster than intended with the keyboard or joystick during Demon Dash."
I'm gonna guess this is referring to his flick at the end of his dash.
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@Apple2o said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/904141#Comment_904141
Yeah, his counterplay is humping safe pallets and not getting M1'd. I can only control one of those in solo Q. And depending on the map RNG, there might not even be that many safe pallets. Oni on shelter woods is kind of a joke.
Well I would have to disagree here, I do believe he has more counterplay than just those two options you've given.
I agree that Shelter Woods is particularly good for him, but on the other hand, he also has maps he is very weak on, especially Lerys.
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@Zoldyar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/111389/oni-has-counterplay
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/111389/oni-has-counterplay
I agree with one thing you said and disagree with the rest.
Due to him getting a nerf on how quickly he can destroy pallets and recover, it has gave suriviors enough to extend the chase to give their allies enough time to do gens. So the pallets and vaults are now an actual counterplays as long as the surivior is lucky with there rng and there are pallets near by.
However, sleath isn't a counter because there are add ons and perks Oni can use to counter it.
Running around on objects also isn't a valid counter because of you customise your control in pc you are capable of doing a 180 degrees turn(before the nerf he could do a 360 degree turn). So pretty much if the oni user is skilled enough he can hit you from any angle, just like a Hibiily player if the position themselves correctly. I guess you can say it's also counter play if you are up against someone not skilled at using him.
So there really is only one actual counter (pallets, vaults and e.t.c) which kind of rely on rng for the pallets or Windows to be near each other before the time oni can catch up to you.
So in some cases people can say there is no counter play because it relies on luck with the pallets(also the killer not destroying pallets that are near each other from another surivior looping him), but in the same time there is counter play.
But while dashing he can only do a 90 degree turn at once at the most. And after that, he can't immediately turn another 90 degree, which is why I would say at most pallet loops his dash doesn't help. Like, he can only do 180 degree turns with his lunge, but once he gets in the position where he needs to lunge to turn and get the survivor at a pallet loop, the survivor should be able to have gained enough distance from that exact position where Oni is forced to lunge from.
If the loops are big enough on all four sides, then he can dash around the entire loop despite the inferior turning, but few loops are actually big enough to allow that. T-L walls for example, that's where his dash is pretty weak, but of course it comes down to mindgames. I would argue that Oni has counterplay at loops like jungle gyms, but that doesn't mean survivors don't have any counterplay at those loops. Wretched Shop's two windows loop however, that's a loop you can not run against Oni since every side of the shop is long enough so he can turn and position himself to turn 90 degrees whenever he has to.
Of course when you try using multiple loops that connect to each other, things get a lot more complicated, but he still has counterplay in my opinion.
Also, I wouldn't say stealth is no counterplay to Oni because of addons and perks. Sure there are perks that allow Oni to have counterplay against your stealth, but again this doesn't mean stealth is no counterplay. Sure there are probably a few situations with BBQ and Chili where the perk pretty much hardcounters your stealth, but all in all stealth can still work. Also, I know which addon you are talking about, but that only works when Oni does not have his power activated. He doesn't see Blood Orbs when his power is active.
Personally, I feel like he has enough counterplay for survivors to extend chases long enough to have a good chance to win. But he does allow for mindgames at loops other killers couldn't mindgame at, which gives him also more counterplay in chases. But I don't feel like his power removes the counterplay survivors have.
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@SirFloofington said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/903025#Comment_903025
A killer is oppressive when they can capitalize on a single mistake and start to snowball the game from there, making a mistake against almost any killer guarantees a hit which is the usual reward for capitalizing on a mistake. Billy may chainsaw you but the degree of mistake made by that compared to an M1 is significantly different. Oni on the other hand gains the benefit of getting the hit (the usual reward of a killer) but ontop of that gaining half of his power instantly and now either filling the map with blood orbs or forcing a survivor to heal them taking 16 seconds out of gen time. Alternatively the Oni chases them for 40 seconds (If the survivor does literally nothing else but running, any actions such as vaulting,dropping pallets,crouching and entering lockers increase the blood orbs drop, significantly reducing the time it takes to get his power) at minimum and has his power. Also assuming he can't catch people in structures is dumb, maybe disgusting ones like Rancid Abbitor or Coal tower. Also hiding for 45 seconds when most of the time his power is popped after hooking someone is pretty catastrophic. Essentially making his ability "Survivors may not work on gens or hook rescue for 45 seconds" which is pretty ridiculous. So that leaves 15 seconds to save a survivor after his power ends,no gens being worked on during those 45 seconds and this also assumes he didn't go back to the hook to ensure a phase 2 on a survivor. All of this because of 2 healthy survivor hits or 1 hit and 20-40 seconds of blood orb collecting, yeah I think that's the definition of a oppressive killer. If you can argue against that scenario then please do because it's very common for Oni to still have his power and come back to the hook to someone being rescued and down the other person quickly or losing his power and getting a free hit on someone, getting him 40% there to another "Do nothing for 45 seconds" power.
You are right that once Oni gets the first two survivors injured, he gets more momentum and can regain his power quicker than when he has to gain his power for the first time. But to be fair outside of his power he is extremely weak, which is why he needs this to be viable.
Thing is, he would be extremely oppressive if he had no counterplay. But personally I would say he does have counterplay. And it's not just doing nothing 45 seconds long. The longer no survivor goes down after Oni has activated his power, the longer it will take him to regain his power. Obviously the Blood Orbs that spawn from injured survivors allow him to regain his power more quickly, but he still is forced to spend time in his weak form, and waste time absorbing Blood Orbs. So wasting as much of his time as possible when his power is activated is key for winning against him, and he does have counterplay to allow that.
I would agree that he regains his power too quickly if he had no counterplay during his power, but I don't see how he has no counterplay. Pallet and Window loops can still be used effectively against him. Of course his dash does help him in chases. But it does not have the turning capabilities to counter looping. Obviously with Oni, his counterplay very much depends on the size and overall structure of the loop you are approaching as survivor, from where you are approaching the loop, and from where Oni is dashing towards the loop. You can't just run around some of the game's loops like you normally would, but you definitely still have counterplay by taking usage of his inferior turning. Of course it's important to understand how his turning works and when he'll be able to make 90 degrees turns and when not. At some loops you'll have to try and mindgame him, but of course that allows him some counterplay as well.
Take the T-L walls for example, his dash is pretty useless at those loops. It's much better at jungle gyms, but the tight turns you can make and the safe pallet give you fair counterplay as well. Long window loops like the two windows loop of Wretched shop is pretty useless against him when he is dashing since every side of the shop is long enough so he can get in position while strafing to turn 90 degrees when he has to. But if you are at one of the windows you can mindgame him by vaulting the window while he is charging his dash and expecting you to run around the outside of the shop. Of course he can expect you to vault the window again and react accordingly, but in that case simply running along the outside of the shop can give you some distance again, as long as you don't try and loop the entire shop.
Of course, he has counterplay as well and can outplay you, which is good. A killer needs this to be viable.
Stealth and losing Oni in a chase is also important. Doesn't mean you need to stay off gens for 45 seconds, but you need to be much more cautious. Losing him in a chase is huge because he just wasted some of his power on you and didn't get anything out of it.
So, I agree you could call him oppressive, but I personally do think he is quite a balanced killer at the moment. He is very strong when his power is active, but outside of his power he is the weakest killer in the game. And as survivor, you definitely do have counterplay, especially to prolong a chase as much as possible. The longer you survive, the more Blood Orbs he will have to regain after his power deactivates. He needs to be powerful while his power is active though, because if his power could be outlived half the time, he would be really weak and not able to combat the fast gen times. A killer needs good map pressure and chase potential to combat the gen repair speed.
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@Apple2o said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/904000#Comment_904000
I don't know how they are doing it, I should record one the next time I see it. But I've seen oni's do like complete 90+ degree turns mid demon dash, basically totally changing direction and being able to get around a ton of objects.
From what I have seen you are basically boned if there is no safe pallet nearby. Sort of like billy but at least billy you can juke the saw much easier and there's no insane curves without add-ons and a lot of skill.
And yes cow tree isn't safe once the pallet is gone, but with Oni you can see him far off the distance and 2 seconds later he curves around the cow tree and nails you for the 1 shot. No other killer is going to do that.
Yeah I know, it's because he can strafe. So you can move in one direction but look in another direction 90 degrees to your side, which allows him to do 90 degree turns. I'm sorry but without this he would be rather bad. That's what makes his chase potential good, but I've attempted to explain how you can still counterplay him in my thread.
For example, you can move and turn your camera seperately as Oni when he is dashing. So I could run in one direction while slowly turning my camera to another direction, up to 90 degrees. But that turning is slow, that's why Oni can only turn this much if he has enough distance he covers while dashing before turning. Once he turned 90 degree for example, he can't turn another 90 degree right away, which means any additional turn you make forces him out of his dash, unless he's already close enough to hit his lunge.
That's why his counterplay can be loop dependent. If you've got multiple objects around you, you can run around them taking multiple sharp turns, and often that means Oni would have to make multiple sharp turns to keep up with you, which is why he is forced out of his dash in those cases. You do have to be very cautious when he has his power active, since it can go very fast. But that's what makes him viable.
Don't forget, if you can outrun a killer for a long time no matter the skill of the killer, the killer is not viable. If there was a 50/50 chance that Oni would not down a survivor during one use of his power, he'd be pretty damn bad, because Oni is extremely weak when he doesn't have his power active.
I think you would get a better understanding of how to counter him if you understand how he works, so playing him yourself or watching others play him to understand how exactly his power works can be really helpful to understand how to counterplay him.
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@LetsPlayTogether said:
So all you have as counterplay is the same "obvious gameplay" as against 99% of other killers?
Uhm is there a problem? I mean sure you could say it's the same counterplay as against any other killers. But his power does help him in chases which is why I wanted to explain how exactly you can counter him, despite loops in general not being as strong against him than against other weaker killers that don't have an ability that helps in chases. I've seen some people say he has no counterplay, so that's why I made this post.
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@Blueberry said:
I didn't know people actually believed Oni didn't have counters..that's shocking. Especially since his biggest counter is quite literally the exact same counter as almost every other killer in the game..pallet looping.
Most my games against him at rank 1 he's been destroyed. I think he could even use some small buffs honestly.
While I personally don't think he needs any buffs either, I am surprised as well. Unless somebody shows me a video that shows how his power makes all kinds of pallet loops useless for survivors, I have a hard time believing this. And I'm a bit scared he'll get nerfed in any significant way making him much less powerful.
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@EnviouSLAY said:
my only issue with him is how he gets his power. the blood orbs are so annoying and its just free tracking. I wish it was just based on hitting people in general to get his power, not collecting orbs from players who have no means to heal (since self care isnt meta; and if you are a solo player getting someone to heal you/finding someone to heal you isnt the easiest) Its very much a killer you need SWF to counterplay well. Not solo friendly.
I mean aside from the tracking ability he does not have anything when not having his power, so I think it's fine. I can understand that it can feel a bit harder when you are playing as solo, but I never really had too much of a problem finding other survivors when I need healing, and it's not that bad if you are forced to stay injured as well. Once the limit of 100 Orbs is reached, older orbs start to get replaced anyways.
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@Apple2o said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/903914#Comment_903914
He can curve around some insanely tight objects currently. I've seen Oni's who can curve around the entire cow tree and it's honestly stupid. Nothing you can do about it if the pallet is gone.
I'm not sure how they are doing it though because I don't play him. But I've seen some pretty absurd curves so far, with basically nothing the survivor can do about them except die. The only thing keeping him balanced is how he is super weak at the start and needs 2 M1s to get rolling.
Wait curving around the entire cow tree? I mean with his dash he can probably go around the entire tree, though he won't be turning very tight. I think the turning of his dash is perfectly fine and should not be changed in any way. Unless you can also turn tighter during your dash when using left and right by binding those two actions to e and q. But I haven't noticed that myself. Also, Cow Tree isn't very useful against any killer once the pallet is gone, and that shouldn't be any other way. Him being a bit better at Cow Tree than other killers is definitely not a problem, he needs to be good in chases because his power is on a time limit, otherwise he's useless.
It's the flick with his lunge that he can do that will probably be nerfed. At least that's what can be made much better when binding left and right to q and e. Turning with mouse and q and e can stack, which I guess is the problem that's being fixed. Not sure about that though.
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@Drazen said:
The Oni can rotate faster than intended with the keyboard or joystick during Demon Dash.
This nerf would fix the issue I guess. A strong high tier killer(Maybe Top Tier) after a long time :D
Yes exactly. I'm not sure what this means exactly, but my guess is that it refers to the insane flick Oni can do at the moment.
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@Apple2o said:
I don't think he is overpowered, but is definitely annoying to play against.
When your team feeds him some easy M1s and you are the recipient of his power it feels bad, similar to your team being able to feed myers stalk and then you are the one who eats the 99% tier 3 even though you haven't seen him the entire game.
It's super hard to avoid his power unless you have a safe pallet nearby.
That's why I am not liking him so far, he is way too pub-stompy. Good survivors who can loop and stop his M1 and he will get dunked but if your team is feeding him? There's very little you can do about it.
Yeah this can be a bit frustrating, the same as with Myers like you said. But it's not often a problem in my opinion. At least he has an activation time so I can try and prepare for his power, unlike Myers who just pops his power right behind you and downs you one second later.
Personally though, despite this, I really enjoy going against him. He's a lot of fun and can't just be looped like many other killers in many scenarios.
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It's very good for stealth, but I agree that this map could use some more pallets, but mindgameable pallets. My problem is that there aren't many pallets on the map, but not many of them are mindgameable as well. Which baffles me a bit since with the rework to Badham Maps, it seemed like they wanted to have maps that have more pallets, but many of them mindgameable.
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Increasing the objective time would butcher this game. Kill rates are already high, this would increase them even more and discourage many people from playing survivor. The game would need so many more changes in addition to an increased objective time. I don't think the devs will want to make so many changes to their game, especially at once.
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I really disagree that he is a better Myers. Myers has stealth on his side, as well as other small advantages over Oni. I do agree that Oni is probably more powerful than Myers, but I do not find him to be really op in any way.
In the ptb I would have maybe agreed that he doesn't have enough counterplay, but now I think he has enough counterplay, using pallet or window loops are one of those counterplays. At T-L walls for example, his dash is pretty bad. It depends on the area of the map and the loops you are at of course, but to be fair that's with most killers. Wider or rather circle shaped loops are very good against him, since his dash will not allow him to get into a position where he can hit the survivor with a flick at the end.
Using your environment to force him out of the dash is very important, and that is counterplay. Always try and run in the other direction of which he is dashing at, while having some object between you and him.
Obviously a good Oni will be able to catch you before his power ends the majority of the time, especially depending on the loops you have in your vicinity. But if there was a 50/50 chance for survivors to outlive your power, he'd be utter trash. Just image him getting his power, not downing anyone 50% of the time, and then having to recollect more blood orbs. That's just not possible in a game with such short gen times. He needs to be really powerful while his power is up, since he doesn't always have it up and gens go very fast. Killers both need strong chase potential and good map pressure in order to combat the fast gen times. And I personally want more viable killers, not less.
The counterplay, like with most killers, is a way to prelong the chase, and you do have these possiblities at your disposal. Using pallet and window loops well, and using the environment to force him out of his dash, wasting as much time as possible. Of course, depending on your surroundings, you might also be able to lose Oni in a chase which is of course gigantic since his power doesn't last too long. However, Counterplay should not be the potential for a survivor to run the killer around for ages, especially since his power is on a timer. He'd be useless if survivors had a good chance to outlive his power before it expires, if he finds the survivor early enough. And by god I do not want this killer to become unviable, he is porbably the most fun I have had for a while, both playing as him and going against him.
One last counterplay against him is also being more stealthy. Once you hear his power go off, you should be more cautious and try to avoid him as much as possible. That is indeed counterplay, since his power is on a cooldown. The longer he doesn't find a survivor, the less power he'll have left when he finally finds a survivor.
There is one change I would like to see though. I think he should lose like 30% of his power charge instead of only 10 or 15 % (not quite sure what it is) when he downs a survivor, but instead survivors he hooks should drop like 6 or 8 blood orbs instead of 2, just to nerf his slugging potential a bit more. I still feel like Oni with Infectious Fright and Monitor is still too good.
Also, his flick will most likely see a nerf, through a bug fix, which will most likely make his chase potential just slightly weaker. And that's the only nerf his power needs in my opinion. He's such an awesomely designed killer in my opinion.
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DS doesn't only need to be an anti-tunnel perk and absolutely nothing else.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/901289#Comment_901289
"Survivors in chases need to be able to affect chases according to their skill."
I never said they shouldn't. I believe they should be able to affect chases based on their skill. Their affect is prolonging the chase.
"That's why it's important for killers to have both powers that help with chases and with map pressure"
That's why the game has a lot of issues as well currently because most killers don't have both those.
'If the game was only balanced around 1v4, not considering the 1v1 aspect, we'd have multiple killers in this game that would be uncounterable, even though they are not op."
I do not believe this. What are you using as your criteria for a statement like that? This feels like hyperbole.
". Unless you're playing one of the really bad killers, your skill matters as much as the survivors skill, both when it comes to chases and map pressure."
Really bad killers equates to 3/4 the games killer roster. I'm assuming best of the best survivors against the best of the best killers at rank 1.
"You don't always have to hope for the survivor to mess up."
You do if you aren't playing one of the few best killers in the game.
"It's probably true that the majority of killers, or at least a fair amount of them, are not viable against extremely optimal survivors teams, most likely swf teams."
SWF is a clear outlier, but I would argue that even a top tier solo group of 4 still make most of the killers unviable.
"But these overly organized swf teams are probably like 1% of the community, and a game like DBD can't balance solely around the best of the best"
I look up each group in my lobby prior to games starting and it's much, much higher than 1%. That said, I am less referring to SWF which we all already know is broken and more so just top tier solo's which at rank 1 I do not think are that rare at all as I think the skill ceiling for survivors to get to that point is quite low. Survivors could be mediocre at looping and still win simply because of gen speeds if they know how to prioritize their time.
"a game like DBD can't balance solely around the best of the best."
I think every other game balances from the top down, not from the bottom up.
I also don't think this is narrowed down to a should killers be OP or UP. Killers could simply be buffed a decent amount to be able to better have a chance against the top tier survivors while still not ruining the experience for lowers.
I do still think they should change gen requirements based on rank which would solve some of these "balance for top but not hurt the low ranks" issue. That's for another topic though.
Regarding some killers being uncounterable if the devs wouldn't consider the 1v1, that was more a hypothetical thought. As an example I'll take Clown. Now if the devs wouldn't consider the 1v1 balance, they could just buff his chase potential to a point where there is barely any counterplay and he could almost guaranteed get a down within 30 seconds or similar, if the Clown player is good. It wouldn't make him op though since he has no map pressure. And since devs wouldn't consider the 1v1 aspect in this hypotheical scenario, he would work like that and nobody would enjoy going against him.
Regarding the rest, I personally just heavily disagree with you here. I don't think 3/4 of the killer roster is unviable even against top survivors, except maybe like the most ridiculous swf survivor teams that use the information they have to it's fullest potential. Obviously there are killers of different viability if that makes sense. A perfectly balanced killer would result in the survivor team and the killer to have a 50/50 chance to win when all are playing optimal. Of course for some of the killers it's more a 30/70, or 20/80, like Plaugue for example, but the killer still does have a chance to win even then. And then there are the really bad killers at top level play that pretty much have 0 chance against an optimal survivor team. But those aren't many.
Just out of curiosity, what killers do you consider viable?
I do feel like there are a lot of killers that don't need to rely on survivors making mistakes though. It depends on the killer though, how you use your potential counterplay, if you can counterplay in chases or use map pressure to counterplay survivors.
There are a lot of factors that have an impact on the outcome of a match though, some which you don't even have control over. And I feel like people don't realise this. Obviously map rng is a factor, but there's definitely more as well, such as pressuring the right gens when you don't have a survivor to chase, or finding stealthy survivors.
Personally I think this game is in a good spot balance wise, but one needs to acknowledge that DBD isn't a competitive game. Sure there are ranks, but they are more a way to seperate players of different skill levels. Also, the game is not balanced from the bottom up, but more around the average of the entire playerbase. You also need to keep in mind that survivors have to depend on each other, a killer doesn't.
But I do feel like BHVR has done a good job balancing this game for high ranks. The kill rate stats that were released also show me that killers can't receive any general buffs at the moment. I know these stats aren't fully representative of the game's balance, but the devs still need to consider these stats as well when balancing the game. Extending the survivors objective time would just lead to another increase of kill rates. We might end up with killers who will have an average of 80% kill rate. And at that point many people would stop playing survivor. Increasing objective time would just result in very long killer queue times.
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People say tunneling is not ok, but it is of course. It's a strategy you can use in the game the way it is designed now. It's just really not fun to go against, and it would be great if it was in some way discouraged, by nerfing that strategy, but at the moment I don't see how that would be possible.
The main difference is that survivors can only complete their objective of repairing 5 gens by repairing gens, simple as that. There's nothing more to it. They need to survive as long as possible and try to get 5 gens done before being killed by the killer.
Killers however are able to get kills and complete their objective without tunneling one survivor. That's the main difference, and why I think tunneling is just a strategy that is an annoying product of the game's overall design. Tunneling is just one strategy, whereas survivors don't have any other strategies for repairing gens other than just repairing gens. Obviously you could argue the objective design of the game is flawed, and the fact that it can be completed as fast as well. On the other hand balance wise it would hurt the game if survivors got increased objective time at the moment.
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@Blueberry said:
"he reason for balancing around the 1v4 makes sense, it is a 1v4 in a whole, but in the chase, it isn't. This formula would also equal (if both sides are equally as skilled) a 4 kill 0 survival rate."
This is already incorrect on concept. That would not equate to a 4k 0 survival in that circumstance.
It isn't a matter of choosing which one to balance around, the game IS a 4v1 not a 1v1, that is objective, not subjective.
The game is supposed to be balanced around a 4v1 as that's what the game is. The reason the game is so unbalanced right now is because they aren't doing that. They care more about the individuals experience rather than the game as a whole which in turn makes each survivor have way more powerful than they should be. This leads to top tier games being about did the survivor mess up or not instead of was the killer skillful. I mention the killers skillfulness being the factor because he is defacto supposed to be the power role in a 1v1, "supposed to" being the key words here.
The survivors goal should be to waste as much killer time as possible before going down, but he should go down. That isn't what we currently have.
I play both sides at rank 1 and I am currently way stronger on survivor than I should be.
The 1v1 aspect is still extremely important as well. Survivors in chases need to be able to affect chases according to their skill. And that's what BHVR is taking into consideration as well. That's why it's important for killers to have both powers that help with chases and with map pressure. If the game was only balanced around 1v4, not considering the 1v1 aspect, we'd have multiple killers in this game that would be uncounterable, even though they are not op. In that case killer players would face an entirely different problem, 30 minute queue times.
I also heavily disagree that the killer's skill does not have a sufficient impact on how long chases can go, or even on the match itself. Unless you're playing one of the really bad killers, your skill matters as much as the survivors skill, both when it comes to chases and map pressure. You don't always have to hope for the survivor to mess up. Of course this depends on the map you are playing on and the loops you are chasing a survivor at, but still.
It's probably true that the majority of killers, or at least a fair amount of them, are not viable against extremely optimal survivors teams, most likely swf teams. But these overly organized swf teams are probably like 1% of the community, and a game like DBD can't balance solely around the best of the best. Even those teams can still be beaten if you get lucky, and nobody can play perfectly 100% of the time.
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I personally think it's perfectly fair now since it's nerf.
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Skilled stealth is evading the killer by using your environment and navigating around line of sight blockers so the killer doesn't see you. You know moving your character around cleverly so the killer doesn't find you. Not hiding in a dark bush and just crouching there, hoping the killer doesn't see you because of the camouflage.
Honestly, with the upcoming map reworks, I do hope maps will receive more line of sight blockers to hide behind so survivors have more stealth options and a slightly higher chance of even losing the killer in chase, at least those maps that don't have enough, and I also wouldn't mind if they increased the crouch movement speed by like 30% or so. But survivors with the right skin blending into the environment is not something that I think this game needs.