Xernoton
Xernoton
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If we were crying about kill rates, then we would demand nerfs for Freddy and buffs for Nurse.
Even the developers have stated, that they cannot balance by kill rates alone because then you could have a killer that always gets 4 kills against inexperienced survivors but never gets anything done against better survivors. Or you end up with Singularity, who is pretty hard to play and get value out of but supposedly quite strong, if you're really good with it.
Also, killers aren't the only ones, that falsify kill rates. More often than afk or farming killers I see survivors kill themselves on hook (probably because of the 1:4 ratio), which also means that the others will die as well.
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Residual Manifest has a pretty low pick rate (0.72% according to Nightlight) and the "All Seeing" - Spirit addon is an iridescent. So it makes sense that this happens very rarely as both of them would need to be in one match, without Lightborn and that survivor would need to blind the Wraith with gens remaining. That's a lot of conditions that need to be met.
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That sounds like a skill issue to me, no offense.
When a killer gets 8 hooks before a gen is completed, then something is not right. Currently there is no killer so overpowered, that this is realistic in a match with players of somewhat equal skill. Especially not Freddy. For the first 45 seconds, Freddy has nothing. Literally. He is a normal M1 killer without a power. He can't teleport and his snares / dream pallets don't work because the survivors are still awake. It takes 60 seconds until he finally has a power in chase and even then, he's not that good. Clown's counterplay works against him as well. Even better because Clown has his yellow bottles too.
If you only play killer rarely, then it's fair to assume your killer MMR is pretty low, which implies that the survivors you go against are pretty bad too. This already puts you in a favorable position because the killer gameplay is more intuitive than the survivor gameplay. We also know, that Freddy is especially hard on inexperienced survivors (the devs mentioned that, though I don't think I can find that post again), which makes sense considering that there is quite a lot to his power. A teleport, a chase power, a "stealth" mechanic and a secondary power can easily become overwhelming when you already struggle with the basics.
More than buffs, Freddy needs a rework. If not for us, then at least for @GeneralV. He has suffered enough.
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They don't. I assume you were blinded by a survivor with Residual Manifest. This applies blindness to the killer and because the "All Seeing" - Spirit addon is based on aura vision, it doesn't work either.
I honestly think that's fair. Some perks will always be more effective against some killers than others and because this isn't a hard counter to the killer's power but only to an addon, I have absolutely no issue with it.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692022#Comment_3692022
In terms of Billy, Blight and Demo, I do think that the crouch tech is a bug; especially considering it only works when there is a change in elevation.
Nemesis, however, is working as intended to my eyes. Maybe it sucks, maybe it doesn't, but I don't think he's bugged.
Agreed. In case of Nemesis, the devs specifically designed the tentacle (a ranged attack) to be blocked by obstacles. So I would compare this to Huntress and Trickster not being able to hit through objects but hitting survivors over them. We don't consider these "techs" either, so why do we consider taking cover behind an object against Nemesis as a tech?
The crouch tech against Billy, Blight and Demo can also work without elevation, though it requires a much more precise positioning from the survivor.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691657#Comment_3691657
Dull merchant can still camp 3 gens well some maps they are side by side and she camps usually them at start.
Any killer can camp a 3gen. But holding them is a different story and as far as I am concerned there is not a single killer that can really hold a 3gen in a problematic way anymore.
Problematic meaning, that it was possible to hold the game hostage / drag it out for all eternity without actually progressing. As much as I hate SM, that part is gone. She can't work around the 8 regression events, so she can't hold 3 gens anymore, if she doesn't end her chases, which was exactly what the devs wanted to achieve. This goes for every other killer too.
@MoNosEmpire said:
I was SoloQ last night and I was there for a good 10 minutes tryna break the 3 gen lock vs gunslinger, all 3 gens were 10s walking distance between each other, we eventually got it done but sheesh it was rediculous and got to the point where it started to feel so boring to do.
I get that it becomes a drag after a while but this isn't an easy thing to fix, if we're honest. 3gens will always favor the killer because they reduce the area they have to patrol, which is honestly fair with the 8 regression events limit. If they try to hold a 3gen from the start, then it helps a lot, if you can bait out a few kicks on them before the other gens are done. Do that a few times and the killer won't be able to make much use of their 3gen.
When it actually comes to the point where only these 3 gens remain, then spreading out is a sure way to force the killer to either commit to a chase and abandon the gens or waste their remaining regression events.
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Sometimes simplicity is a blessing.
Many older killers have quite simply powers. It doesn't mean, they're easy to play but they are mostly self-explanatory. Compare that to Singularity, whose power is incredibly complex but not very mechanically demanding (still hard to use right, though).
As @Aven_Fallen correctly stated, pretty much everything has been done in one way or another already when it comes to killer powers. So to create unique killers now, they need to reuse existing concepts and combine and twist them into something new. That easily bloats that character's kit.
Sadako, Freddy and Dredge for example are all made of the same basic gameplay components. They are M1 killers with a stealth ability (demanifesting, dreamworld obliviousness, nightfall), anti loop (phasing, dream snares, remnant), mobility (TVs, gens, lockers) and a side power (condemned, dream world, nightfall). But when you look into how each of these components work, they are still very different from each other and all have their own strengths and weaknesses. Combining these naturally makes their powers rather complex even when they aren't that hard to play (Freddy).
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She's definitely not my favorite killer to play against (I'm not that comfortable staying injured) but I don't really mind her. I don't see her that often, so it adds a bit of variety when I do end playing against her and the game is quite different against a Plague because it adds a strategic component.
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Haste is definitely something they should play around with less and not more.
However, I don't think Huntress will be a big problem with these addons.
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@BrightWolf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690969#Comment_3690969
One way to fix tunnelling would be to make survivors not have collision with the killer for a short duration, as long as the killer's TR is within earshot of the survivor they cannot be hit again until killer fully drops chase for 30-40 seconds after the basekit BT wears off.
There are a few issues with this suggestion.
30-40 seconds of complete immunity is quite a lot for a base kit effect. This might be a bit much. More problematic however is the part about TR and chases. The chase detection is a bit too wonky to be base it on and TRs can be manipulated by perks, addons and killer powers.
So it could potentially create issues when killers use perks to increase or decrease their TR as well as allow killers to circumvent the mechanic by using something to make them undetectable.
Don't get me wrong, more protection against tunneling is a good thing but it should work consistently.
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@Sandt1985 said:
There's a counter. I've found that raising the tentacle as high as you can before swinging almost always beats the crouch tech. I have no idea why, and I'm sure someone who understand the tentacles hitbox could explain, but give it a shot. Since theyre crouching when that get hit, they'll lose some of the speed burst
That is not how the hitbox works though. So that's a placebo effect.
Otzdarav explains the hitbox pretty well in his Nemesis streak:
https://youtu.be/Jx0EaeZUAU4?si=vbICGs0EpsjpFsNaIt's about 5 minutes into the video.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691209#Comment_3691209
Lol 1700 hours on the game and you're really trying to explain basic terms to me just because you're not happy with the response?
Bodyblocking the killer after you are unhooked is a tactic just like camping, tunnelling and slugging.
You want killers to be buffed yet you don't want survivors to be buffed in retrospect. Flashbangs getting a nerf also means that survivors who use them as a whole get a nerf, it's not a small nerf either as prior to this nerf flashbangs had a ridiculously small hitbox and the timing was severely unforgiving. Reverting the clipping of the killer swinging and hitting the person who unhooked and not the person being unhooked was never an issue. Nor was it an issue for tunnelling, in some aspects yes, but if a killer decides to unhook nothing changes this, even this silly no clip issue.
Also, to make this clear, IDK how low your MMR rating is but in mine the killer comes back at least 85% of the time, so there is virtually no such thing as "safe unhooking" for me.
Having X seconds of invincibility (something I've also suggested in the past on one of my previous anti tunnelling posts (around feb - march last year when tunnelling was in a serious prime time) would only be viable if it was more than 30 seconds, 10s is way too damn short, 10s is laughable as a killer, that doesn't deter anything, and if the other 2 coming into play also means the survivor has to equip them then it forces 2 perk slots to be used up, if they are given out for free then it also means killers are forced to use up X amount of perk slots also to help counter it. Neither of them work.
"A camping killer can always get an exchange against a single rescuer. That was my point." - this statement is also false, i've unhooked without being touched and being the only person coming to get the rescue against a camping killer and both escaped before.
Yeah... I think this conversation is over. You don't even read my responses, do you?
What I suggested is a huge buff for survivors that would limit the effectiveness of tunneling. If you don't understand how complete immunity to killer powers and attacks is a buff to survivors, then I can only assume you don't know how the game works. My suggestion also removes the unintended side effect of bodyblocking with BT to force the killer to tunnel. But this would not come as a buff to killers. More like giving them the option to do exactly what survivors usually want instead of forcing them to play in a specific way and then punishing them for it.
I suggest fixing a bug that removes counterplay from flashbangs. Outside of these 2 scenarios they would be completely the same. Most survivors wouldn't even notice any difference at all because they already use flashbangs as intended.
A killer coming back to the hook still allows you to safely unhook. They do not get to teleport back to the hook instantly (other than Hag). So in the time it takes them to come back you can already go somewhere else (which is what I usually do) to maintain distance and make it harder for the killer to find you again. If they don't come back after that, you can still heal. Nobody forces you to stay right there at the hook.
[...] this statement is also false, i've unhooked without being touched and being the only person coming to get the rescue against a camping killer and both escaped before.
Do you need me to show you how that works? Or is it enough, if I explain, that standing right next to the hook, hitting the unhooker as the animation begins and then hitting them again when the animation ends guarantees that you go down? This takes no skill and it's something you can do on every killer without the need for any specific perks or addons.
If you end up not getting hit, then my guess is that the killer wasn't actually camping. Camping means staying in one area to proctect something. But in that case, they didn't protect the hook.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
We can nerf this auto pilot WoO the day we delete Lethal Pursuer and gut aura perks. Fair, right?
If I can't mindlessly run loop to loop why should others be able to mindlessly chase survivors with zero need to track?
Yeah, my idea sounds silly. That's because it is.
Lethal Pursuer and other aura perks already have conditions to make them deactivate (mostly durations), so they don't work as autopilot perks but more like a compass.
My suggested nerf to WoO would make it work in the same way. The perk tells you where to go and now it's up to you. There is only one perk that has the potential to do something similar for killers (Undying) and when that happens, it's crazy powerful.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690873#Comment_3690873
What do you mean "you shouldn't unhook hen the killer is nearby and if they camp" lmao, do you want me to just leave my teammates to die on the hook?
Your analogy makes no sense here brother.
I would rather die on the hook than allow a teammate to be tunnelled and camped.
For endgame, yes it requires 2 people to come for the hook when all gens are done but midgame it doesn't always require 2 people unless the killer is experienced at camping the hook and waits patiently for the unhooking person and attacks them as they are mid animation.
If the killer doesn't camp, then you should unhook when they are far away. If they do camp, then you get the exchange and because they don't apply pressure on the other survivors, you easily get the gens done and come for the safe afterwards.
It might help to read the full sentence. 😉
If you are unhooked and the killer goes for the person that unhooked you, then they are not tunneling. So I have no idea what you are trying to say with that second part.
Tunneling means that the killer picks one survivor and ignores the others as much as possible. I don't see the reason the killer should be punished for exactly that. Why should you get to decide how the killer has to play?Bodyblocking with base kit BT forces them to tunnel.
Most of us want tunneling to decrease, which would happen, if base kit BT worked the way I suggested, simply because for the first 10 seconds the killer would be unable to harm that survivor in any way and after that OTR and DS would still come in play. So it would be less efficient to chase that survivor in the short run. It would also remove the situations in which this anti tunneling measure is misused.
A camping killer can always get an exchange against a single rescuer. That was my point. There is no experience needed for that. That might have worked as an argument with hook grabs but they were removed. And pressing M1, waiting for the unhook to happen, then pressing M1 again isn't hard.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690489#Comment_3690489
The problem it is also creating is the person unhooking you has now been instantly hit which guarantees a 1 hit kill because of the cheap unhook hit. That's why allowing clipping was better.
I fail to see the problem with that. You shouldn't unhook when the killer is nearby and if they camp, then that still puts them at a disadvantage because you can force an exchange and get at least 3 people out with close to no effort.
Getting the 4th person out is a bit harder because it requires at least 2 people to come for the unhook.
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@HEX_DEAD_BY_AI said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690139#Comment_3690139
LOL, there's a guy named "AmpersandUnderscore" who already has the right answer for you, bro. I bet you're the type who usually plays as a camper or tunneler, leaving the four other survivors to do whatever they want. You don't protect the gens, which is why you see them completed so quickly. When you're up against pro killers, there's no need to camp or tunnel, and no need for any red add-ons (like Tombstone), they consistently apply pressure across all 7 gens. And if they use perks like "Thanatophobia" or "Hex: Ruin," you stand no chance of completing the gens. Regarding the Nurse, if you face a very skilled Nurse, the game can quickly end with 4 kills and only around 2 gens completed. If your idea is to punish survivors just because they're good, then should we also punish killers who have very high skills (without camping or tunneling)? Take a look at some YouTubers and you'll see how they fight off a bully team (ya, a real party) without camping or tunneling. Most of the players have no team, they have to coop with strangers (especially teammates who are too cowardly to support anything, only hide, or lead the killer to teammates where the gen is about to complete), that's also the disadvantage of the survivor's side.
Oh no, someone accuses me of tunneling and camping for saying something they don't like. Very original and definitely the first time this has ever happened.
Now, do you want me to point out all the things wrong with your post or would you like to read over what you wrote again? There are so many things wrong here, I don't even need to argue against it.
Many of this comes from a lack of experience on your part. Like the things about team mates that only hide or lead the killer towards you. This is not the standard survivor. I assume my survivor MMR is pretty low but even my team mates usually don't make these kinds of mistakes.
That part about bully squads is particularly funny. These teams almost always lose. Because their goal is not to win but to make their opponent miserable. And when that doesn't work, they usually fall like domino.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690551#Comment_3690551
I didn't say he was overpowered.
The DS buff isn't going to do much for most people.
I also didn't accuse you of saying OP was bad, just remarked that it might not be the player who is dead at five gens fault.
Regarding DS, we'll have to wait and see. I have my doubts we'll see a huge decrease in tunneling but we're probably on the same page that the DS buff is a positive regardless. To massively reduce tunneling though, there will need to be some more changes.
Base kit BT could be adjusted to make it more healthy for both sides and OTR could get some small buffs as well.
@Xernoton said:
With the upcoming buff to DS we are going to experience a higher pick rate of this perk. This will also lead to more players using it the way OTR was used right after the buff. We have seen this exact issue before, so this is not a theory but a fact.
There have been arguments about whether or not to fix these issues and how effective the aggressive use of these perks is. However, the existing anti tunneling measures have some flaws as well. So I suggest a fix to both of these:
- Base kit BT (maybe the perk too?) grants complete invulnerability to killer powers and attacks but removes the survivor's collision with the killer. This allows that survivor to get away from the killer without getting hit right off the hook and increases the strength of OTR but also removes the cases in which survivors force the killer's hand by bodyblocking.
- DS and OTR additionally grant you Bond's effect for as long as they remain active but both deactivate on protection hits, so you can't use either of them for bodyblocks. Some adjustments could be made to the protection hit mechanic to make it more consistent without gutting either DS or OTR. That could also make MoM a slightly more reliable perk.
- Flashlights and flashbangs cannot be used until a conspicuous action was performed or the duration of the perks has ended. They don't help against tunneling anyway and this also removes the possibility of survivors trying to use their anti tunnel perks to safely get a flashlight / flashbang save on their team mates.
- Anti tunnel perks can only be active on up to 2 survivors at once to ensure that we don't create weird situations in which the killer goes for different survivors but is then punished regardless for playing too well.
This would increase the existing protection against tunneling, make different anti tunneling perks more viable (although OTR could increase the speed with which you are healed by 50% for as long as it remains active to not be overshadowed by DS) and prevent the issue of anti tunneling perks used aggressively.
What do you think of these suggestions?
I made this post yesterday, suggesting a few changes to make anti tunneling perks stronger and remove the chance for them to be misused.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690538#Comment_3690538
To counter, Wesker is a bit too good at tunneling, DS will get a buff but it won't really change anything and dying at five gens has almost nothing to do with you and everything to do with your team.
Wesker has issues, yes. And they should be fixed. But he is not overpowered.
The DS buff will nerf the strength of tunneling. The issue will not go away but it's a start and definitely a step in the right direction.
I didn't say op was the one with a skill issue. It could go both ways. Either their team mates didn't do gens or op lasted about 5 seconds in chase. Either way it comes down to skill issue.
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Wesker is not overpowered, there are no ranks anymore (grades have no impact on matchmaking), DS will receive a buff, which also makes tunneling weaker as a result and if you die at 5 gens remaining then that's a skill issue.
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Predator: I used it once or twice before and I found that it actually makes scratch marks even harder to follow.
Sole Survivor: I hate the very idea of the perk.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690498#Comment_3690498
Knowing BHVR, I bet is not even possible. They probably have the basement spawn logic hardcoded to the shack and they can't deactivate it in one map without deactivating it in all.
But sure, it would be nice.
Even if that was the case, this would be an easy fix because there already is an rng value to the spawn logic of the basement, that could be used for it (basement offerings).
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690468#Comment_3690468
I think the best solution is rework the map entirely. It is by far the less balanced map of the whole game, in my opinion.
Yes, a map rework is probably the best option.
But this will take a lot longer than removing a basement spawn. So it would be nice, if the devs did a band aid fix in the meantime.
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And so the Lightborn meta begins. 😂
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690479#Comment_3690479
You're not understanding, you can be unhooked and forcefully take a protection hit for the person who just unhooked you, yet with body clipping behind disabled for a few seconds it doesn't work. That NEEDS to be fixed. And I've played 8 games in a row today and all 8 I have been targeted and tunnelled, so your suggestion of leaving it be makes no sense.
No, I think I do understand.
But if you take that protection hit, the killer has all the more reason to tunnel you because the base kit endurance effect is gone immediately, so a potential OTR is too.
Anti tunnel measures are not meant to be used as a protection for anyone but the survivor that was just unhooked because that defies their purpose. That's why old BT was nerfed.
Leaving it be would at least give the killer a chance to avoid tunneling. But that's not what I suggested. I suggested enforcing this further, so that the killer literally cannot hit you for the first 10 seconds after you were unhooked but you also cannot bodyblock them. This would make OTR a way better perk and weaken tunneling as a result while also removing potential for it to be abused.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690459#Comment_3690459
Flashbangs we're already difficult enough to use. The killer should not be blinded when facing a wall however, at the same time though if that's getting fixed then so should the killer being able to clip through the person being unhooked to hit the survivor doing the unhooking. This has ruined many games for me alone because of how fake it is.
The killer should not be blinded when facing a wall however, at the same time though if that's getting fixed then so should the killer being able to clip through the person being unhooked to hit the survivor doing the unhooking.
Isn't this what we want though? For the killer to go after the unhooker instead of tunneling? I honestly think this might be better as intended feature. If the unhooked survivor completely lost collision with the killer and their power, this would benefit survivors more than killers.
So I see less of an issue with this bug in particular.
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Both Pop and DS are a necessary evil in so far that they create a stale meta, if they aren't ever nerfed to make way for something different but nerfing them creates different issues.
Pop rewards killers for hooking survivors and leaving the hook to kick a gen. DS helps survivors deal with tunneling.
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A guaranteed hook down there wouln't make the issue go away though because hooks can be broken and then you'd have the same situation again if multiple survivors were in on it.
So they either need to make it easier to reach the hooks on the outside or remove the possibility for the basement to spawn in shack.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
In todays decision of what will we nerf today from survivors because we are too lazy to pressure the survivors away:
Can we at least fix the bugs that make flashbangs stronger than they are intended to be?
Sound occlusion makes the drop silent and survivors can glitch themselves into the killer during the pick up animation, which allows them to blind the killer even if they press their face into a wall.
Other than that I'm mostly fine with both flashlights and Background Player. Although, I'll admit I like facing 4 people with Background Player about as much as I liked playing against Boil Over squads.
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The devs created an extra particle effect for the halloween event. They could do that for P100 too. Even if they reused the same effect, I'd be happy about it.
The red backgrounds make me kind of nostalgic because I always think of "the good old days" when I see them. I'd prefer to keep them just the way are.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690146#Comment_3690146
A Zanshin nerf would be a cute foil to WoO, like you know, one of this perks is the most played survivors perk and the other the least played killer perk. And they literally do the same. Shows of how different value the same information can be, but you could utterly nuke and murder and gut Zanshin, that wouldn't impact killer gameplay one bit, so claiming that this could be thrown in to sweaten the deal of a WoO nerf would be a bit uningenious
I don't think it would sweeten the pot but I'd be more than happy to pay that very low price for WoO to be changed. Wouldn't you?
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@Spirit_IsTheBest said:
Heck no. The perk does nothing to progress the game further, it simply gives information. Why would you want to nerf that? Good killers focus on pressuring generators rather than chasing anyways.
Can we stop with that "just pressure gens" nonsense? You can't pressure gens, only survivors. That is a big difference because survivors can adjust.
Killers can too but not really to WoO. You can't make it go away mid match.
If the perk isn't any good, then how comes it's used so often and what would be the problem with this nerf? All the positive aspects would remain. Only the autopilot function would disappear.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/409866/fixing-potential-issues
Yeah, good idea in vacuum, but with deleting tunneling, we will see some astronomical killers buff in few month. Comp DBD will… i don't even know, survivor will play perkless on every tourney?
Spreading hooks should be rewarding strategy first of all, before even DS buff. Hit and run should be viable again, and stupid Magled/Haem nerf should be reverted. And only then we can deal with the consequences.I don't think this would delete tunneling to be honest. If a survivor plays reckless and makes themself vulnerable to tunneling, then these perks will barely delay the killer.
I agree with that second part though. There isn't a reason to spread hooks other than activating some perks but what if I play without the few perks that do that? Then suddenly I have no reason at all to spread hooks. So either they need to add a base kit incentive or a lot more perks that work like that.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689245#Comment_3689245
To be fair survivors can run in a straight line (or from pallet to pallet) and pre-drop without Windows of Opportunity. Decent map awareness (not even good; just decent) and a functional pair of eyes creates the same scenario. Nerfing this perk won’t mean average survivors just suddenly stand still and get hit or run into walls. 🤷🏽♀️
And Any Means Necessary does something similar to this perk.
That's true but at least it takes a bit of effort. The issue doesn't go away but it becomes less prevelant without WoO working in this way.
A good Nurse can hit you pretty much anywhere but if she sees your aura, then that's pretty much a guarantee and it takes away a lot of the possibility for her to mess up and for you to mind game.
Average survivors will be more inclined to actually play around loops because they aren't constantly reminded of how much more they have to work with and if they play mindless, they might end up running into a dead zone.
I'm honestly fine with AMN. That at least doesn't allow you to play by a manual and killers can also break pallets to negate the aura vision.
@TheLastTreedad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/409692/a-possible-nerf-to-woo
So would you say the same for Zanshin Tactics? WoO is fine as it is
Not in general. Because pallets and windows are not resources for the killer to use.
The only exception is Doctor. And on him I sometimes use Zanshin Tactics for the same reason survivors use WoO. I can completely turn off my brain. If Zanshin Tactics has to be changed as a compensation, then fine. Go ahead.
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@HEX_DEAD_BY_AI said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690077#Comment_3690077
There is a very big difference between efficiency and trick. If a survivor plays so efficiently, this is because they're good at their skill (looping, stunning, blinding...). We should punish survivors who have no gut to do gen or rescue. I've met so many who only hide somewhere, do nothing, wait for their teammates to die, and then escape through the hatch. We shouldn't punish the ones who play well.
About killer, I've faced many who can kill the whole team without any trick (camping & tunneling), even just using normal add-ons. That is because their skill are so great, they know what to do, and how to leverage their perks and skill set. Only killers who have no skill must do tricks like tunneling or camping just to have at least 1 death for sure.
Spreading out on gens and ignoring any and all side objectives (healing, hex totems, killer powers) as well as Shift + W do not equal skill. All of these are extremely easy to do but highly efficient. The only risk is doing them at the wrong time. Which is what I would like for tunneling as well.
There is a place and a time for everything. Only in case of tunneling, it's currently the go-to way to play killer, which I would very much like to change. This is however not done by punishing killers.
If you regularly play with survivors that only hide, then that implies that you play with people that really aren't good at the game. More experienced survivors often stick to gens even when the killer is right next to them.
That second part really shows a lack of experience on your part. You clearly don't know how little time a killer actually has when survivors really know what they're doing. A Nurse can keep her chases short enough to keep up with such a pace (though even that is debatable, when survivors play on a high level) but most killers can't. Which is why slowdown is the meta. But even with the best slowdown perks you come across survivors that progress too fast for you.
I mean, you see how the best killers play. So it's disingenuous to claim that only players without skill must tunnel or camp.
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- Know map layouts. There are places that you just don't want to go as a killer and knowing that helps a lot. There are also maps with natural bottle necks that you can easily patrol and defend.
- You don't need to defend 7 gens. That means you can strategically give up gens to effectively reduce map size and create more favorable situations for yourself.
- Keep track of survivors. Even if you can't directly see them, you should have a general idea of where they are. Info perks and certain killer powers can help you learn common survivor behavior. For example survivors are very unlikely to abandon a gen that they have previously worked on and are likely hop on the very next gen they can find after you chase them away or they completed one. This helps you staying relatively close to them so that you're a constant threat.
- Know your killer's power. Often times you can use your killer's power to keep survivors busy even when you aren't directly in chase with them. That can include quickly eating through resources, approaching from different angles, disarming set ups before you start a chase (for example destroying breakable walls and setting up traps before a chase), hitting survivors across the map (like with Huntress), quickly switching targets when you have the chance, using your mobility if it's always available or saving it, so the survivors know you could always be about to come to them and using hooks in the open.
- Play efficient and exploit your opponents weaknesses. If you know someone will waste a lot of resources and you have the time to spare to create dead zones, chasing them can be more valuable than a quick down. If they make themself vulnerable in any way, you can use that to your advantage.
- Always keep on learning. Sometimes you can play very ambitious and get a huge value out of it and sometimes you have to play safe. The more you play, the more you will learn to identify these situations but it's important to know there could always be something else that would help you out more.
Most of this comes with experience, so don't be affraid to try and fail. There is no "one size fits all" approach but the more experienced you become the more quickly you will be able to adjust to different situations.
Good luck and see you in the fog.
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It could deactivate their powers for a few seconds as long as it doesn't interrupt cooldown times. It would be kind of weird stunning a Nurse or Blight while they use their power and then pausing their recovery on top of the cooldown.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Good killers managed for years with 5 second DS and 80 gens. Like...just eat the DS and tunnel the person out after that if they're body blocking with OTR and DS. They're handing you a 4k if you're any good.
The problem is that this takes a lot of agency away from killers. You don't get to choose if you want to tunnel anymore. So at least it should be looked into.
There are some easy solutions to fix such issues without nerfing these perks when used as intended:
- Base kit BT (maybe the perk too?) grants complete invulnerability to killer powers and attacks but removes the survivor's collision with the killer. This allows that survivor to get away from the killer without getting hit right off the hook and increases the strength of OTR but also removes the cases in which survivors force the killer's hand by bodyblocking.
- DS and OTR grant you Bond's effect for as long as they remain active but both deactivate on protection hits, so you can't use either of them for bodyblocks. Some adjustments could be made to the protection hit mechanic to make it more consistent without gutting either DS or OTR. That could also make MoM a slightly more reliable perk.
- Flashlights and flashbangs cannot be used until a conspicuous was performed or the duration of the perks has ended. They don't help against tunneling anyway and this also removes the possibility of survivors trying to use their anti tunnel perks to safely get a flashlight / flashbang save on their team mates.
There are probably some potential issues still but I'm positive they could be fixed as well without taking away from these perks.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690075#Comment_3690075
"Some other regression perks will need to be buffed, so that they can fill in the gaps."
Yeah, god forbid bad Killers cannot stack 4 Slowdowns to compensate for their lack of Skill.
By that standard Pop and Pain Res shouldn't be the slowdown we nerf though. Because they require the killer to play well. Otherwise they don't get to use them frequently enough.
In my opinion 4 slowdowns are too much indeed but gutting regression perks is a pretty bad idea. If both of them were gutted, that would shift the slowdown meta completely towards gen blocking, which is way worse.
I'd rather work 22.5 seconds longer on a gen that was hit by Pain Res than not being able to progress at all even if the time was shorter (which it isn't). Gen blocking also has the weakness that survivors can wait it out. For regression that doesn't work. So stealth would become even stronger than it is now.
As a logical consequence the game would move away from being mostly chase focused and revolve around how well survivors can avoid being spotted by the killer. This would then render quite a few other killer perks useless and force the devs to buff perks that work without chasing. Then Distortion would become a huge problem and they'd need to deal with that too. It might also be necessary to make maps consist mostly of dead zones. Because if the killer spends most of their time running around without even finding survivors, then chases cannot take longer than a few seconds.
You see where this leads?
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Do we also punish survivors for playing too efficient?
We don't need to "punish" everything a killer does. It's better to limit the effectiveness of certain strategies to make them more situational and provide alternatives.
Especially the latter is very important. Because right now, even tunneling through a 5 seconds DS would be more efficient than hooking different survivors. I mean, what is better, going through an extra health state and spending a few more seconds catching up but eliminating someone at 3 hooks or going for 6 chases and not having anyone dead? The latter takes a lot longer and the payoff is a lot less.
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Probably with the next big meta shake up in a few years. However, this will come with a trade off. Some other regression perks will need to be buffed, so that they can fill in the gaps.
Because Pop and Pain Res aren't too strong, they just create a stale meta. It is more clear than ever, that the game does not work without some pretty strong slowdown. Especially when DS goes back to 5 seconds (which is a good thing), the overall pace of killers will slow down to some degree.
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689800#Comment_3689800
Except for noed literally no risk high reward.
Huntress Lullaby, Ruin, Thrill Of The Hunt and Two Can Play are the other extreme.
Hex perks are supposed to be high risk - high reward perks. But many of them are pretty terrible either because the reward is too low or because they don't have a high enough risk.
Devour Hope on the other hand is a well designed perk in that regard.
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@SilverCrane4643 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689775#Comment_3689775
SkyBilly was mainly goofy thing to put a show and it wasn't used for chases, but I was also dissapointed of the removal of it. I don't agree the part that you said "they stay consistent with it". Is like saying… they did a bad change, now let's make the same bad change to everything else. So if anything, they shouldn't keep doing the same mistake.
Is like saying… they did a bad change, now let's make the same bad change to everything else.
That is a fallacy. Your example would not be a rule that the devs made.
SkyBilly's removal however was. Because the rule that techs are allowed to stay in the game as long as they aren't problematic by BHVR's standards, was directly contradicted without any reasoning that would warrant an exception to the rule. They did not consider it problematic themselves and they made no argument as for why an exception would be warranted anyway.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689837#Comment_3689837
It's pretty much over if there is one gen left and only one survivor has been hooked so far.
Pretty much over = / = over.
For example: If you try to kobe 100 times, then you are pretty much guaranteed to successfully kobe at least once. But (assuming the 4% chance is completely accurate) you still have a roughly 1.7% chance to fail each time. So it's not actually guaranteed.
The expression "pretty much" is used as a relative, so it has no quantitive value. One could say that a game in which the killer gets 3 hooks at 5 gens is "pretty much" over. 1 second later, it could be 3 hooks at 1 gen remaining though.
You could also say that a match against a Starstruck Nurse on Midwich (back when that still worked) was "pretty much" unwinnable. But there were cases in which the Nurse still lost.
Even if they hadn't completely turned the game around, they could have gotten another hook or more.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689803#Comment_3689803
But the game IS over in that case. And I've seen enough games to know that survivors don't stop at just crouching at the gates — they would spam noise notifications ceaselessly to get the killer's attention or run loops around them to mock them into chasing them till exit. If they completed all but one gen, it's not likely the killer would be able to defend the last gen. So they just wanted this bad game to be over. All survivors have to do is finish the gens and go next
The game isn't over until all 4 survivors are either dead or have escaped. This was not the case here.
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Flashbangs have 2 issues at the moment:
- Sound occlusion. You can drop a flashbang behind a wall and the killer will not be able to hear it thanks to sound occlusion. Now they walk around a corner and immediately get blinded with nothing they could realistically do.
- Survivors can glich themselves into the killer during the pick up animation. This allows them to drop the flashbang right on their feet and get the blind even when they apply the correct counter (staring at a wall).
If both of these were fixed, I'd be completely fine with flashbangs and Background Player.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689788#Comment_3689788
They didn't disconnect or leave the game. What else was left for them to do if survivors were getting to the endgame anyway? Watch them taunt them at the exit gate? If the Killer got blinded, stunned, and trolled into oblivion I don't blame them
What else was left for them to do if survivors were getting to the endgame anyway?
Play until the game ends. It really is that simple.
They don't need to watch the survivors teabag. There are other things to do. Like trying to catch someone before they make it out, defending the last gen, just chasing and hooking survivors to the best of their ability or even walk across the map and kick pallets / gens / breakable walls.
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Because it's an interesting idea for a perk. That's the reason it exists.
It has a very powerful effect but it requires the killer to put in quite a bit of work, leave the hook (so it won't work when the killer camps) and it can be deactivated before it does anything. So it's a high risk - high reward perk, which is exactly what hex perks are meant to be.
It would probably be fine without the mori (though that should be compensated slightly) but other than that, it's fine. There are only so many totem spawns on each map (which you can either learn or use perks to find) and if you destroy the hex totem (the one that glows), then the hex perk is completely deactivated and the killer plays with 3 perks remaining for the rest of the match.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3689775#Comment_3689775
Actually, fixing that was stupid as is, so probably wasn't fine at all.
That doesn't matter now, though. The devs set the precedence. Now they need to either follow through or revert the change (which is not going to happen) and set a new rule for techs.
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They went afk, which is against the rules. It's even listed as a reason for a report. If that's not enough to warrant a penalty, then I don't know what is.
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It's a pretty good perk but definitely overpowered. You mostly don't hit all 3 gens anyway and the regression is neat but less impactful than for example Pain Res, which gives you a chance to defend a gen that's almost finished because the regression on each individual gen is not that great.