Xernoton
Xernoton
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695360#Comment_3695360
Hyper-mobility can be tricky to balance because of the way survivors have to play around it. They are powerful abilities, after all.
Hillbilly and Oni are good examples of well-designed killers with hyper mobility. Hillbilly has the charge time to keep in mind and Oni has to build up his power, but in return they are gifted a good power. That is fun, and fair.
Wesker in the other hand, is a perfect example of a horribly designed killer, for a power of that nature. He has barely any charge time to worry about, he can vault, he creates a countdown towards Hindered and he gets a notification of your location as soon as you get rid of the infection (which you have to do).
Even if you somehow play perfectly against him you will go down, because you will get slowed down and once you're fully infected he only needs to get you once, while not worrying about… well, anything. And it doesn't help that the few resources you can use against him are scarce, thanks to the map reworks.
He is not unbeatable, of course. No killer is, except for a Nurse who plays flawlessly. But I don't think his power is healthy for the game.
EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention his incredible potential for tunneling. As @C3Tooth pointed out.
I would be happy to never see this killer again.
Thank you, friend. Now I see where you're coming from.
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I want J. Jonah Jameson as a killer. Picture him running after you and laughing the entire time. Then when you drop a pallet on him, he just looks at you and asks: "You serious?"
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695363#Comment_3695363
I'd love to see more perks become basekit, even if they need to be watered down somewhat or have deactivation conditions. Things like OtR for body blocking unhooks, even if it only activated for thirty seconds, or UB with a one time only use for slugging. Killers could get something like Lightborn, but have it only activate on successive blinds, so it doesn't invalidate perks and items, but it does protect the killer from bully squads.
It would give players more freedom to use other perks if the worst possible scenarios were not something that everyone was constantly worried about.
These are just off the top of my head suggestions. I'm sure there are plenty of issues with those ideas, but they are just examples.
I disagree with the idea of more base kit perks. I'd like to see them make further adjustments to existing base kit mechanics.
@Xernoton said:
With the upcoming buff to DS we are going to experience a higher pick rate of this perk. This will also lead to more players using it the way OTR was used right after the buff. We have seen this exact issue before, so this is not a theory but a fact.
There have been arguments about whether or not to fix these issues and how effective the aggressive use of these perks is. However, the existing anti tunneling measures have some flaws as well. So I suggest a fix to both of these:
- Base kit BT (maybe the perk too?) grants complete invulnerability to killer powers and attacks but removes the survivor's collision with the killer. This allows that survivor to get away from the killer without getting hit right off the hook and increases the strength of OTR but also removes the cases in which survivors force the killer's hand by bodyblocking.
- DS and OTR additionally grant you Bond's effect for as long as they remain active but both deactivate on protection hits, so you can't use either of them for bodyblocks. Some adjustments could be made to the protection hit mechanic to make it more consistent without gutting either DS or OTR. That could also make MoM a slightly more reliable perk.
- Flashlights and flashbangs cannot be used until a conspicuous action was performed or the duration of the perks has ended. They don't help against tunneling anyway and this also removes the possibility of survivors trying to use their anti tunnel perks to safely get a flashlight / flashbang save on their team mates.
- Anti tunnel perks can only be active on up to 2 survivors at once to ensure that we don't create weird situations in which the killer goes for different survivors but is then punished regardless for playing too well.
This would increase the existing protection against tunneling, make different anti tunneling perks more viable (although OTR could increase the speed with which you are healed by 50% for as long as it remains active to not be overshadowed by DS) and prevent the issue of anti tunneling perks used aggressively.
What do you think of these suggestions?
This addresses the bodyblocking issue (although the other way around).
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@[Deleted User] said:
I think the post mostly hits the nail on the head. Whether the devs like it or not, intend it or not, or design it this way, players do approach this game more competitively than they ever let on. It does no good to essentially hand waive it and say "don't do that", because players are going to do it anyway. And if you don't adjust to player sensibilities, you end up with what we have.
It is not a bad thing to tell players they are relatively less skilled or average at the game. It's a good thing! Look, you're running the best perks+add ons and you're still losing half of your games at average MMR/rank. There's a lot to improve. How is this bad information for a player to have?
Half the sweat in this game comes from players constantly trying to punch above their weight class because they have sub-1k hours, think they're "top MMR", and cheesed their way near or above the soft cap where they don't belong. And now they're constantly compensating for being overmatched.
I think it might have something to do with how you might feel like you have to be the best in competitive games and telling a player, they're not quite that good yet can really sting. It hurts one's pride in a sense.
So they might need to include something else to show players that they still do well even if they aren't among the most skilled players in the world. That could possibly be based on the emblem system. For example: "You did really well in this match, so here is a little reward." and then they get 500 shards or whatever.
I would also like the devs to be more forward with tutorials. We 35 killers in the game but their powers are barely explained enough to have an idea on how to actually play as and against them. There is no general introduction to types of perks like info, chase and slowdown either and not even the AFC is mentioned in the tutorials. That makes learning the game pretty hard because half the time you'll have no idea what the hell is actually going on.
@TieBreaker said:
MMR being confusing is not much different than the game itself. Almost nothing is explained and the devs rely on players watching YT videos in order to understand anything.
Solo queue matchmaking certainly does make me walk away from the game sometimes. It's fine to have a bad match based on matchmaking sometimes, but not ten matches in a row.
Certain perks feel necessary to run because they are needed to avoid the worst parts of the game. Gen regression to counter strong toolboxes, anti-tunnel perks to avoid getting hard tunneled out early game. It makes sense why many perks feel like a QoL boost. Many have been introduced to deal with problems created by the game loop or other perks. If you don't use OtR, when the killer body blocks you off hook and counts to ten, you're going back on the hook. Needing a perk just to deal with something that is obnoxious.
MMR being confusing is not much different than the game itself. Almost nothing is explained and the devs rely on players watching YT videos in order to understand anything.
That's a good point.
I think it's mostly fine to be expected to use 1 perk slot to fill into a particular niche (i.e. gen regression, info, anti tunneling) but I would very much like them to provide us with more good options. So you can still have a lot of variety while filling in the gaps. With info perks they do a pretty good job for example. There are a lot of options, so should you need one, you have a lot of perks to choose from and it doesn't feel like you have to run a specific perk or two.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695240#Comment_3695240
Everything, my friend. For a hyper-mobility killer, his kit has way too much.
I know I keep nagging but could you go into more detail? 😅 We have a few hyper mobility killers, that in theory have somewhat similar kits in the sense that they have a chase power, mobility and a side objective. Even current Freddy would go into that category, although he is weaker in every regard.
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Ok. Thanks for clarifying that. Though, I do think that is a little bit low because Oni's potential can vary quite heavily. With a bit of luck you get your power early on and become quite a beast but with a bit of bad luck you find yourself on GoJ and only get it very late. Addons make him more consistent in that regard.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/410546/about-mmr
How you manage your MMR to get good variety instead sweaty matches?
I switch up perks and play styles and when I can't win with whatever weak build I run, then I try and accept that and focus on something different (like learning more about the killer I'm playing). It has worked pretty well so far (except that that time I mentioned). Some matches are not meant to be won.
For a while now I have been playing different killers with only Lightborn and Lethal Pursuer. It helps me keep my game sense sharp because I don't have BBQ to rely on and because I don't typically use gen regression either, I am more or less used to some matches ending too quickly for me to win.
I also play mostly without items, addons and offerings. For some very weird reason I hate to use consumables. I'm always affraid they might run out even though I know, I will never get through my 3k addon stacks on Billy.
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@Pulsar said:
I thInk a SLIGHTLY weaker Oni is the ideal standard.
With or without addons?
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*PTSD intensifies*
Jokes aside, congrats.
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@GeneralV said:
Wesker is definitely not a healthy benchmark, imho. In fact, he is a good example of what to avoid.
I completely understand not liking a killer. Different people like different things after all.
But out of curiosity, what part of Wesker do you consider unhealthy? I personally consider Wesker their best balanced killer yet. He has a good power in chase with (mostly) lots of counterplay, a bit of mobility, a form of skill expression that seems to make him viable across all levels of play and inbuilt second objective to buy him a few extra seconds.
The only parts of his power, that I would like to see changed are the ability to vault and sometimes get free hits just like that and his tunneling potential thanks to the infection.
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No
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Play pallet Freddy on GoJ with no perks. That is the definition of suffering. Every 2 seconds you'll find something different to hate.
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3694620#Comment_3694620
I completely understand that im not saying the killer will always win. I also get that nerfs and buffs dont effect things to drastically its the game overall that adjusts for the 60% kill rate. Even the lowest kill rate though is 52% on a bad day which is still going to the original point that its killer sided. Its the devs game and they want it to be killer sided we still all play it.
Agreed. Though, I believe, if we discuss this then it's important to keep that in mind. After all, as you said the lowest kill rate on that graph is 52% but it's on Nurse of all killers.
This shifts the issue a bit. Killers with insanely high skill floors will naturally be quite low in terms of kill rate (look at Singularity's stats on Nightlight or Nurse in the stats you posted for reference). I find it hard to rectify drawing conclusions on actual strength from the numbers alone. Freddy is very deceiving in that regard. Though most us would agree that he is pretty terrible, his kill rate is among the best.
This all becomes important when we think about how the game could be adjusted to make it more "fair" (I put fair in quotation marks because in an asymmetrical game I find that pretty hard to define).
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3694608#Comment_3694608
That just means the mmr is terrible. The numbers that bhvr gets are completely different from what we see in game and they balance the game to be a 60% kill rate and also in the killers favor theres no denying this they have stated themselves plenty of times and it seems like theyre numbers are going right with what they want and that is for the game to favor the killer i.e. be killer sided.
I know. My point was, that the game absolutely isn't so horrible in balancing that you are always screwed as a survivor. It might just be that more often than not you go against a killer that is actually good enough to uphold that kill rate, which is a different issue with the same result.
Even if you were to nerf a killer, their kill rate would stay at around that level. The same happens in most cases a killer is buffed. Discrepancies of course happen, when a killer becomes way too easy or way too hard, or survivors kill themselves on hook way more often.
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3694515#Comment_3694515
Ahhh so the best top 5% swfs are bad sure got it lol.
The nurse is the worst player in the game now if you go by top mmr she way higher here let me show you an old data since they dont show the new one for top mmr. Even when in all ranks not just topp mmr shes at 52% still means killer is the stronger role. Every set of data has shown the game is killer sided.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BBLM60GNJVS0/sdfsdfdsf.png
To be fair, the top 5% SWFs aren't the opponents for each of the top 5% killers.
I do not recall the actual numbers but to explain it, let's say the absolute max MMR is 3000. Then we would assume that the top 5% survivor players would be pretty close to that, right? However, because the strength among different killers varies quite heavily, it is entirely possible that we have some Nurse and Blight mains out there that are at that max MMR while the best Myers / Freddy / Trapper only has an MMR of 2000. Keep in mind, they can only take the top 5% MMR on each individual killer for their data.
This would however imply that the best Myers / Freddy / Trapper only plays against people that are way below the top 5% survivor range. We don't know the actual MMR numbers and all that but what we do know is that the combination of MMR and balancing puts us at a roughly 60% kill rate. You don't climb much further as a killer, if you can't keep that up but you will fall until you can keep it up. So the actual balancing is quite hard to rate because the matchmaking puts killers against survivors in a way that pushes kill rates to that point.
The results don't change but it's important to remember the influence of MMR on these numbers. Many matches I win as a killer, I absolutely don't struggle in any way because at least 1 survivor is pretty bad. The matches that I lose though, typically feel very different in that regard. 4 survivors that all play decent or good are quite scary.
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@poinepp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3694481#Comment_3694481
Funny thing is it used to be see through for 6 years until dredge came out.
You're right! I completely forgot.
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@Choaron said:
It's not slow, you just got too used to the event gains. Events are meant to be eventful y'know.
Uhm… We have 35 killers and 41 survivors in the game. That's a grand total of 76 characters. In order to get through the entire perk grind, you have to get them all to P3, which takes about 1 million (slightly more) BP per presitge level. So that's about 76 x 3 x 1 million BP = 228 million BP. To even spend that many BP takes an eternity even with the auto bloodweb.
Now let's go into it a bit further. Let's say you only play killer with the incentive or BP offerings and you get about 70k BP on average per 10 minutes match (which is much higher than in reality). Then it takes you about 3258 games. Add in 2.5 minutes for queue times, lobby and loading screen (again shorter than in reality) and we get a grand total of 40,714 minutes = 678 hours.
If you played 5 times per week for about 3 hours per session (15 hours per week is more than the average player would have), then this would take you 45 weeks. That's about january to november for someone who plays a lot of DBD and we have not factored in any new chapter releases yet.
This is free-to-play levels of grind. But DBD isn't actually free-to-play. You pay for the game and then pay for most of the content again (or spend thousands of hours unlocking free characters, which doesn't help the issue). And that's, if we're very optimistic and only consider the bare minimum of the grind. Now what happens, if you actually want to bring a character to P100 before all that? That's 97 bloodwebs more. And the next chapter is only 3 months away.
At least @Novapheonix22's idea for an offering grinder should be considered. There are 12 offerings that increase BP gains in one category for 1 player and not even by a lot. They just aren't good enough to even bother equipping them and they clog up the bloodweb. Congrats: Your green offering gave you 100% more BP (10k max) in one category. That's really gonna speed up the grind.
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My thoughts exactly.
They could at least make it see through for auras. That way, the benefits would remain but the most annoying issues disappear.
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@SuperCop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3693966#Comment_3693966
I don't think that's something that can actually be removed, cause you could struggle to try to get team out of bad situation with 4% and you could actually miss skill checks on accident, too, plus they get smaller, harder to hit. 2nd stage is supposed to be dangerous.
Also I wouldn't want people to be *forced* to keep playing. I think it's better to incentivize, that way staying is worth it.
Honestly, the 4% are hardly impactful enough to be a strong argument here. In most cases, you'll end up killing yourself, if you try and for perks like Deliverance and Wicked, it could be unlocked. So you don't have it without these perks.
Luck needs a rework anyway. Luck abusing SWFs are rare but really not fun to play against and for everyone else it's already something they don't concern themselves with.
Someone that thinks: "Oh no, XYZ thing happened. I'll just suicide and go next." will not stay in the game for a few extra BP. You would need to put so many BP into it, it would become ridiculous. I mean, why would you reward loads of BP to someone that does the absolute bare minimum or maybe even less because they could still run up to the killer and get themselves hooked again?
You cannot force someone to play the game but you can take away their decision to end it instantly and force them to stay in the game for long enough to actually calm down. I mean, how many times have you felt like something wasn't fair in a video game? And how many times did you calm down only seconds later and continued to play the game?
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Honestly, as a killer main, I don't want this opinion associated with me. 😂
Looping is the most fun part about playing survivor in my opinion and playing killer against someone, who refuses to loop is mind numbingly boring even if they go down relatively quick. Both sides should be on edge in chase and looping (in theory) is exactly that. There are some extremes where a survivor will always get hit or a killer will always have to brute force through the pallet but as long as these aren't the norm, it's looping all the way for me.
Also, looping does require skill. Around many structures the killer can hide their red light to confuse survivors and around many pallet loops they can fake movements or even using their power to get a reaction out of the survivor and a hit right after, if play wrong. I'd say it's the most skill expression survivors have.
The less pallets there are on a map, the more important it becomes for the survivors to actually loop. Because if they don't, then they'll burn through their resources pretty quickly and die.
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You might want to read up on how Unknown's power actually works. A direct hit with UVX doesn't apply the weakened status effect. Only the explosion does and on direct hits, more often than not, that damn thing will fly too far and explode with the survivor just barely out of range. Meaning, that you're not supposed to hit survivors directly but only indirectly.
I also like how "skill issue" only extends in one direction. When 1 survivor plays bad and they ruin the game for their whole team, then why don't we consider that a skill issue as well? For the killer something like this doesn't happen because they have no one but themself to rely on. DBD is not a series 1v1 games but a 1v4. That means, that you absolutely cannot factor out things like varying skill levels in the team of 4. Btw, this also goes the other way around. I have had more than a few solo queue matches in which I clearly wasn't good enough in chase to have any right to escape but then I still got out because someone else was good enough carry my load while I focused on the easier things like doing gens, unhooking and healing. But then we still call that a skill issue on the killer's side because they didn't go after the bad survivor (tunneling).
See how that creates a lose-lose situation? If they don't tunnel and lose as a result, then they are told it's a skill issue. If they do tunnel and win, then they are told it's a skill issue because they had to tunnel, which is overpowered. And if they win by spreading hooks, then the killer they play is overpowered. Now, all of that wouldn't be a big deal, if we applied the same standards to survivors. But we don't. Because on one hand, it doesn't make sense and on the other you could lose because someone else played bad.
Basically, it's either a skill issue on the killer's side or they are overpowered but we never actually admit, that they might have earned the win by simply playing better or that the game isn't so killer-sided that killers are always guaranteed to win. Because 4 decent survivors can definitely win a match with or without playing in a SWF by just playing better.
Of course that is hard in a solo queue team because the matchmaking needs to pick 4 survivors that are actually on the same skill level (which rarely ever works considering the poor implementation of MMR) and killers and survivors have 2 completely different skill sets. For a survivor, standing still in check spots is skill. For a killer, doing the same thing isn't. It's considered quite the opposite, if we extend this to camping. For killers it's a skill to switch targets effectively. For survivors, not really. There is no reason to abandon a gen, if the killer doesn't stay right there in which case you don't need to make a prediction because you already know the right decision. For killers there is a lot mechanical skill involved with many powers. For survivors there is no such equivalent. Their counterplay looks completely different (a lot of it comes from predictions / reactions). Who is to judge who needs to have more skill to come out on top? I reckon, the killer often takes more skill but they have an advantage in learning their skill set because they spend more time doing that than survivors learning how to counter these specific killer powers (especially with 35 different killers in the game).
Objectively, the results of the game's current balance lean into the killer's favor. A 60% skill rate is overall killer sided. The problem is that a 50% kill hasn't worked. Do you remember those survivor queue times? I do and I might be alone with this but I don't think waiting 10+ minutes for a game and then dying because my team mate doesn't understand that you need to unhook other survivors before the 2 minutes hook timer is up is preferable to what we have now. Especially since survivors were arguing about how the game was so incredibly killer sided back then as well.
The killer role is undeniably more stressful than playing survivor. As a survivor you can relax when doing gens or healing. You'll know when to switch plans (because you can react to situations as they arise) and stressing over this doesn't make it go faster. As a killer, you're constantly in the action and have to make decisions. The only down time is when you have someone on your shoulder and even that is debatable because you already need to think about where to go next, whether or not to use a specific hook (like basement), whether or not this or that strategy (i.e. camping) is the right move etc. If the payoff for the killer role isn't high enough to make it worth it, then you will have less people playing killer. Sometimes much less (2021 was a bad time to queue up as survivor). As of right now, it seems to be somewhat even with survivors having shorter queues during the day and killers during the night (EUW servers).
More than any drastic balance changes, what the game needs is minor case by case adjustments. How many perks do we have in this game? And how many are actually good? How many maps do we have and how many are actually fun for both sides? This doesn't always equate to balance but towards making the game more fun overall. There are arguments about how The Game is killer sided for example but I have yet see any killer player that really likes to play on it. These same arguments exist for how it's survivor sided but from what I have seen, survivors don't seem to love it either.
I personally don't like playing against Chucky anymore. Many hits feel quite cheep. But I don't think he's too powerful. I also don't like playing against Wraith but he definitely isn't overpowered. The same goes for DH (although, it should not be buffed again for obvious reasons) and sometimes SB and Lithe. Things can be annoying without being balance issues. That's what really drags the game down sometimes.
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I played 1 1/2 years through the DH meta and the amount of times I witnessed it is enough for a life time or two.
If this ever comes back, I will quit the game. I'm not going back to watching survivors do a full impression of Swan Lake, studying their family history, eating dinner with their parents and then mentally preparing to swing only for them to use DH for distance to the next window or pallet every single chase.
Imagine, if you had to play against Wesker 10 times in a row. It would become pretty boring, right? Now, imagine playing against Wesker for hundreds of games in a row with only an occasional minute of break, spent with a basement Bubba without the AFC. The overexposure was bad enough to cause an undying hate towards it.
Well that and of course the fact that the devs handled this situation quite poorly. I remember 1 post in particular telling us to "keep 'em coming" when it came to DH complaints.
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@WeirdHexButOk said:
Right, a hindered survivor only affects the speed difference between them and the killer, regardless of the killer's speed. Also, purple bottles do 10% hindered? I thought it was 5% this whole time, oops. After all is said and done, I want to circle back to the meme-clown-haste build from my original post. In a best-case scenario, the haste equation should look like this:
115% (default clown speed) x 110% (yellow bottle) x 105% (batteries included) x 105% (one stack of pwyf or rapid brutality) x 103% (gin bottle) x 102% (soda bottle) = 146.5% or 5.86 m/s
Then, if you use a purple bottle to hinder a survivor, the speed difference would be:
146.5% - 90% = 56.5% or 2.26 m/s
Now that I think about it, replacing the soda bottle with flask of bleach might be better. The addons says "additional 4%" so I'm assuming that would make survivors 86% hindered. If so, it would increase the speed differential slightly. All of that combined with a dead dawg saloon offering (one of the smallest maps) and stbfl would solidify this as a meme build. Similar to scratch mirror Myers with a Lery's offering. In hindsight, this type of build doesn't need a nerf since it's very situational (speed isn't guaranteed outside of bottles). Even the best-case scenario described above requires a specific playstyle which is not always achievable. This build could be countered even if only one survivor brings a sacrificial ward, any map offering, prevents a 3-gen scenario (deja-vu), and if the obsession takes protection hits.
I guess this is at least partly directed at me.
I'm not sure how the Gin Bottle and Soda Bottle are factored into it. It could be that addons are counted as one modifyer, which would mean they would be combined into 1 x 105%. The difference again would be negligable either way.
The speed sounds pretty good on paper again but it's something that requires quite some set up and you only get 1 hit with that speed. That also doesn't matter, if the survivor can make it to a pallet or window or has an exhaustion perk because then they easily get away from that gen and deactivate Batteries Included when the killer follows them. The truth is that most of this only comes from Clown's own speed and the yellow and purple bottles in combination, which already make him pretty good in chase. The difference is not that severe even with these perks.
In case he'd just barely miss, he now gets the hit but the problem is that he cannot play around dropped pallets very well because they usually create loops that are too safe for him to play around. Loop chaining stays an issue for him too because it makes it almost impossible for him to combine the strength of both of his bottles.
Usually, negative speed modifyers are applied mutliplicative too because otherwise it would theoretically enable decreasing the speed to 0. Since the Flask of Bleach is an addon though, it could be an exception (addons are a lot easier to keep in check than perks) and work in the way you assumed. There is not a whole lot of information on how the specifics work. Much of what I know, I got from here.
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The Twins rework took them 2 years. I expected nothing less. /j
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Nope. He's still very much beatable the same way he used to be.
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I would honestly like that. Scratch marks have been quite a struggle to see for me lately and it wasn't helped by the fact that all the even visuals were red and there's a killer (Freddy), that for some reason has desaturated scratch marks. It happens so often that I can just barely make out scratch marks and then I lose them because I just can't see them anymore or need a moment to look around and find out where they actually go but then they disappear.
Scratch marks are supposed to be easy to spot and follow, aren't they? So this should really be addressed in one way or another.
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They're practicing for the next season of The Fog's Next Butt Dancer, obviously.
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It's mostly fine. Some things could be changed (like tunneling) but we have seen way worse. The killer meta has become similar to the old survivor in that you see the same 4-6 perks on all killers but since there are some small changes every once in a while I consider it more bearable.
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If OTR is changed, I reckon it will be a buff. Currently OTR (aside from a bug) is not a very good perk and many have given feedback that a killer can simply hit you right after the unhook and get rid of it already, which kind of defies the purpose of OTR as it doesn't effectively turn tunneling into a 2 hit chase but more like a 1 hit chase with a bit of a head start for that survivor.
The difference is that the killer doesn't need to put in much work to get the first hit, which already drastically reduces the chase time. On top of that, the killer have an equally long chase between the unhooked survivor and the rescuer, which means the only difference to them is that 1 survivor was already hooked and can be killed faster.
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@WeirdHexButOk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692611#Comment_3692611
Thank you for taking the time to explain all of this, I understand it much better now. If I use the Clown's base-kit bottles, without pwyf, would the equation look like this:
115% (default clown speed) x 110% (yellow bottle) x 105% (purple bottle) x 4 m/s (default survivor running speed) = 5.31 m/s (clown speed with haste and hindered survivor)
Why did you factor the purple bottle into Clown's movement speed? That isn't correct because it doesn't change his own speed. Clown's own speed would only be calculated with 110% (yellow bottle) x 115% (Clown's base movement speed) = 126.5% = 5.06 m/s.
The purple bottle only affects survivors, so we'd need to consider that in the speed difference between survivor and killer but not in Clown's own movement speed. For the speed difference we get: 126.5% (Clown's speed with yellow bottle) - 90% (survivor's speed with purple bottle) = 36.5% =1.46 m/s.
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I like to play as him, though he is no fun without at least the yellow chili. Such an addon dependent killer, sadly.
My only issue playing against him is, that my eyes lose the ability to see windows in chase. I swear, he could chase me around shack and the window would disappear for me. 😂
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I'm sorry but why would we punish killers for survivors, that mess up this bad?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692649#Comment_3692649
Twins is broken on live, with 1 or 2 bugs that cause Victor to totally freeze, and cause the player to be stuck for possibly the entire rest of the game.
Wait, really? I found a different bug the other day when I played my 2 games of Twins but at least I didn't freeze. I just couldn't play M1 killer anymore because Charlotte's movement started rubberbanding. Weirdly enough, I could use Victor just like normal and when I carried someone it worked perfectly fine too.
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@BlightAbuser said:
I wonder if they broke blight trying to take away the hug tech…
I hope so. I could use the BP they'll offer as compensation. 😉
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692829#Comment_3692829
Well, that doesn't mean the buff was in good faith. It made no sense to me for pig to be buffed if pig had no problems winning.
If we go about kill rates, then why don't we buff Nurse? Or why did we ever nerf her? Her kill rate is usually not that impressive compared to all other killers, yet so many of us seem to believe that Nurse is actually pretty good. Weird.
Kill rates do not paint a full picture. They only show that MMR, players, perks, maps and killer powers in combination resulted in certain numbers. Especially MMR is important here. Because MMR won't allow you to get anywhere where you lose all the time. Meaning, it's possible for a terribly weak killer (let's say Nurse without blinks) to still have a decent kill rate because they will only play against survivors that are on a level they can actually compete with. And let's be honest, Nurse without a power would definitely not be balanced.
@Doxie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692530#Comment_3692530
And what is your ratio with Freddie. Seems everyone likes to leave that out. That's quite literally the whole point of this.
That's a funny question. Would you believe me, if I said I had a 40% kill rate with Freddy? Would you believe me, if I said I had a 80% kill rate with Freddy? In order to answer your question sufficiently, we would need to provide proof, or else your bias (or own for that matter) would mean, that the answer could be discredited. And even then, that proof could easily be argued to be insufficient. No answer to your question would please you, unless it affirms your bias.
My response above also applies to you. Kill rates cannot really be used as a measure of balance anymore. Especially not with MMR because the matchmaking will correct anything out of the ordinary in due time. However because the individual killer MMR of a player is not completely unrelated to their MMR on different killers, we can sometimes make an educated guess that people struggle with the difficulty of a killer (when the numbers are way lower than they should be). That is not the case for Freddy though.
Anyone could play him and they wouldn't be confused with his power or waste time figuring it out. He is a very basic killer with not much depth and a rather straight forward power for the one playing him (not so much for the ones playing against him). So if you were a Clown main for example and you would switch to Freddy for the first time, chances are you'd perform pretty well because both share a lot basic mechanics. If you were to switch to Nurse however, you would probably struggle a lot because she is a completely different kind of killer.
An argument could also be made that Freddy attracts more experienced killer players than new players simply because he lacks so much originality. Pretty much everything he does, someone else does in better and his power doesn't have a lot of creative uses, so there is not much reason to play him aside from him being Freddy Krueger. Look at @GeneralV for example, who only mains Freddy because he was his favorite killer before the rework almost 5 years ago (you're a trooper, you know that?). Naturally these people would be pretty good at the game and have a lot of experience to utilise. The survivors they play against however, would not have that same experience because as easy as Freddy is to play as and play against, if you know his strengths and weaknesses, he becomes just as hard to play against when you don't.
I can't even remember the last time I played against a Freddy and I only know so much about his power because I like to play him (I guess some part of me likes to suffer?!). But what about the people that don't play him? They might know what his power does but they are likely to lack the experience to know all of his many weaknesses. Sometimes the threat of a power is stronger than the actual power itself.
We see the opposite on Blight. When you just start playing him, you will struggle with his power because it's quite hard to use (the exact opposite of Freddy) but rather straight forward from the survivor's perspective (again, the exact opposite). So naturally bad Blight players will have a harder time. On top of that, you also see that a lot of survivors, even ones that aren't that good otherwise know how to play against Blight simply because they have a lot of practice against him, due to his high pick rate.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692542#Comment_3692542
I'm going to have to unretire my big ol' Collecovision controller aren't I?
I have never gotten to experience the utter joy of playing on the colecovision but I reckon playing DBD on it would be quite the experience. Probably with about 1 frame / year.
And with that controller… I really don't see anyone topping that. 😂
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I'm not sure they can do that for movements because the difference is not just visual.
For textures, I'd really like that. It could even be a nostalgia game mode in which they bring back the old visuals of a realm and switch that realm every 2 weeks. I'd play that.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692533#Comment_3692533
Dull merchant can easily make it far longer than 20 minutes if good 3 gen set up. So most survivors still don't have patience to beat that strat.
I really don't see how that would be possible. You aren't scanned when you work on a gen and you can always get back to the gen as soon as she leaves, make a bit of progress, force her to kick the gen again and repeat. If that is done on all 3 gens, then you break through pretty quickly.
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@WeirdHexButOk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692554#Comment_3692554
This is the first time I'm hearing about this. Btw, I think you accidentally multiplied 145% by 4.00 (survivor speed) instead of 4.60 (clown speed); unless speed modifiers also override the killer's base movement speed to 4.00 (idk, now I'm confused). Also, I'm assuming 3x5%+100% represents pwyf stacks, but I'm not sure where you're getting 100%+10% or 115%. Please enlighten me, this math ain't mathing.
I factored in the 115% of the survivor movement speed for Clown as the third multiplyer, so that makes no difference. You'll often see people refer to 4.6 m/s killers as 115% killers because that's their movement speed relative to a survivor's speed.
Each modifyer is calculated on their own and then multiplied. 115% for the killer's movement speed, 3x5%+100% for the 3 stacks of PWYF and of course the 100%+10% for the yellow bottle.
So we get: PWYF modifyer x yellow bottle modifyer x killer speed modifyer relative to to the survivor = 115% x 110% x 115% = 145%. Now we multiply it with the reference speed of 4.0 m/s as 100% and get 5.8 m/s.
The 0.6 m/s speed difference between killers and survivors is indeed affected by the modifyers. Hillbilly's old 9.2 m/s speed for example came from his base movement speed being doubled. So his speed was calculated with 200% x 115% = 230%. If they had calculated it with the 100% reference (without considering the speed difference), then it would have been 200% x 100% + 15% = 215% = 8.6 m/s. So the devs consider the total speed and apply the modifyers to that.
I will admit: the part about PFYW could be (100%+5%)^n with n = number of PWYF stacks too but I believe I read somewhere that this is actually added up instead of being multiplied. In case of 3 stacks this would mean roughly 115.7%, so it wouldn't make a big difference anyway but I feel like I should mention it regardless.
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I think you're reading too much into it. People will be jerks on all kinds of killers. It's probably just a placebo effect; you think people that play Chucky will more often behave like jerks, so you experience exactly that.
Though that part about slugging for the 4k is not really toxic. Nothing stops the killer from doing it, there is no rule against it and if they kill 3 survivos without slugging they give the remaining survivor a second chance, that they didn't need to earn either. If you played survivor and the gates were open already, would you run back to the middle of the map and give the killer another chase for no other reason than giving them another chance to kill you? I wouldn't.
The hatch is poorly designed in that regard. Neither the killer nor the survivor "earn" their best result regarding the hatch. It's a rng based mechanic (for the most part) and even if the hatch is closed, the survivor still gets another chance at the gates, which can often be a guaranteed escape (not on Midwich though). So you could always make an argument, that they didn't earn the 4k or the hatch escape because they just got lucky.
Anyway, I hope you'll get some more friendly killers soon. Good luck and see you in the fog.
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Tunneling is about to be nerfed with the upcoming DS buff and there have been some smaller changes recently that all work towards tunneling becoming a weaker play style. It's just not enough yet. This will probably take a while but it looks like the devs are slowly trying to push killers towards spreading hooks.
DS can theoretically be ignored, if you don't tunnel and 2 meta perks right now encourage hook spreading. It's a start but not enough yet.
@ReverseVelocity said:
We are getting basekit anti tunnel on July 19th 2022.
Damn, has it really been that long? I feel old.
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This is a terrible idea and not for the reasons you may think.
- Different killers are played in different ways and often use different perks. So this is not a "one size fits all" approach. A Nurse or Blight could very well be unstoppable, if we brought the overall match length up to 8 minutes while Trapper and Freddy still wouldn't be that great. It also has a psychological effect, staring at that progress bar and feeling like it doesn't go up. At least with regression it feels like you're getting it back, which often adds a sense of urgency because you know the killer will soon come and stop you from working on that gen.
- This means free perk slots for killers. Now you shift the meta towards information and chase perks. The top tier killers don't need chase perks, so for them it's going to be information all the way. A full aura build on Nurse is not fun to play against, let me tell you.
- Pop and Pain Res both have 1 huge weakness: They don't work, if the killer doesn't play well. Or at least they don't work frequently enough to compensate for that lack of skill. Fully slowdown builds may still work but these have other weaknesses that can be played around. A base increase of match times would affect anyone. No matter how good or bad they are. So it would also end up carrying bad players.
- This would increae the effectiveness of camping to a degree it could potentially become unbeatable without anti camping perks.
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This is a non issue. Even getting 1 stack already takes quite a bit of work because you need to find the obsession and start a chase with them. For a killer like Clown, who has no mobility, this is a big time investment. Not to mention a perk they cannot use for something else. Like slowdown.
To fix this you could bring Nemesis but even that has a lot of counterplay and it's 2 perks wasted at that point. It doesn't get better, if you use more perks for that and getting more than 1 stack of PWYF on Clown takes forever. You'll easily spend 30 seconds just chasing and getting stacks without actually hitting or downing anyone. On top of the time it takes to even find the obsession. Then you still need to chase, which takes about another 15 seconds at best. So your chase takes about 45 seconds and now you have 1 stack left. That is terrible.
@WeirdHexButOk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692423#Comment_3692423
You're right, I forgot to take that into account before. If we consider purple bottles as haste for the clown, that will make him 32% faster than the survivor. You can use the following equation to determine any killer's speed with various haste percentages (you should try it):
Base-kit haste in addition to killer speed: 10% yellow + 5% purple + 100% = 115% → 1.15 Default clown speed: 4.60 m/s Clown speed with bottle haste: 1.15 * 4.60 m/s = 5.29 m/s Running Survivor Speed: 4.00 m/s Difference between clown speed relative to survivor speed: (5.29 / 4.00) - 1.00 = 0.3225 → 32%
Your math is off. Movement speed modifyers are not added but multiplied.
So for Clowns max movement speed you get: (3x5%+100%) x (100% + 10%) x 115% = 145% = 5.8 m/s, which sounds very impressive on paper but is actually not that good considering it takes a lot of set up and is reduced as soon as you land a hit or the yellow bottle effect wears off.
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I see only one issue with this: Slug races would never be the same.
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@BOFH said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692039#Comment_3692039
OP is playing on an Atari joystick or similar, I guess?
Atari 2600 controllers need a buff. I have never never lost against a survivor or killer that played on this console.
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@Spirit_IsTheBest said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691716#Comment_3691716
I'm talking about a system that lets people move onto their next match, an insta-kill button or something. Not something that people can abuse, like the ones that want to purposely make themselves unhookable, they would obviously want to stay alive. Casual players like myself, we want it to be over.
It would still be abusable. We are talking about a game in which people use a rng based mechanic to instantly kill themselves at the start of the match. Do you honestly think people wouldn't give up any time the killer even attempts to slug?
I agree with @PotatoPotahto. We should fix the actual problems instead of bothering with a band aid fix that will only create more issues. Meaning, perks that encourage slugging should be changed (i.e. make Knockout apply blindness and exhaustion for 20 seconds after a M1 hit), hook dead zones fixed, hook breaks on sacrifices removed and perks that can recreate this issue monitored.
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@MoNosEmpire said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692148#Comment_3692148
I think the fact that 3 genning exists is just hella boring tbh.
Should be some sort of minigame we can decide to do instead vs the killer instead of having to 3 gen lol.
I disagree. It was boring when the match could be stalled for 20+ minutes that way but now you get the 8 regression events out of the way pretty quickly and then the killer either loses before it can really become boring or they abandon their 3gen and chase.
I personally would prefer this not having to play around 3gens (because then I could turn off my brain when playing survivor) but I would also prefer if survivors didn't use check spots around the shack and other strong tiles. The game often feels boring when your opponent is in a favorable position but not all of that should be "fixed".
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@TheArbiter said:
Honestly im half convinced its the same person with like 10 alt accounts
Oh no, my secret has been revealed. 😈
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I agree. The devs set precedent of fixing techs for the sake of fixing techs. I don't agree with that but I can understand it as long as they stay consistent. After all, techs are just tolerated exploits. CJ techs and crouch techs as well as whatever killer techs there are (I can't really think of one right now) would need to be fixed as well for that to be the case.