UnicornMedal
UnicornMedal
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000322#Comment_4000322
All Three of Cage's perks, while they look like meme perks (and certainly have a lot of comedic value at times), are all actually incredibly good.
That said, I don't think any of them should be nerfed at all, and I don't know how it'd even be possible to detect if a pickup was being "forced".
Idk if I'd say they're all incredibly powerful (bouncing off the other replies in the thread too), but they are very fun and are useful. None of them are unbalanced either. But when we're dealing with complaints about Survivors being able to pick themselves up at 25% for 30 seconds before they go down again, it's not a good omen for his kit.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000321#Comment_4000321
The reasonable solution for the problem, is that luck perks and luck offerings offerings shouldn't unlock the ability to self-unhook.
That's not what I said was unreasonable. But sure, why not. It's just one more band-aid system now.
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@solidgamer44 said:
tunneling with an endgame build is literally the easiest way to win atm, it sucks to play against and i wouldn't play like that either.
tunnel out 1-2 survivors before endgame collapse and the rest of your build is gonna cook the survivors really hard, especially if u tunnel out the obsession as priority to build stacks with Remember Me.
only time tunneling can backfire tbh is if its a strong SWF but at that point any strategy is gonna be tough, but its all about effort = reward.
having high reward for doing things that are easy is unfair, the reason why people hate ghoul is that very reason free hit + deep wounds (seriously why do you even get deep wounds?).
Next patch when Hope is getting nerfed it's gonna be waaay worse, I've said it before buffing endgame for killers is unintentionally buffing tunneling.
I've been saying it for years, but endgame has been cooked for Survivor and only gets worse over time. Not only is tunneling viable at the start of the trial when Survivors are at their strongest, it's buffed at the end of the trial when they're at their weakest.
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I haven't brought items in years unless I need one for a challenge, so no difference on my end.
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Plot Twist is a meme perk. If you can't meme with it, no one would use it.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000202#Comment_4000202
"we also had a backup plan in case one of us was no longer around" and "I brought Up the Ante just in case one of us died long before the other", both mean that one of you is dead before you starting using the perk. You specifically mentioned twice, that the perk is being used AFTER one of you is already dead.
So it was a completely valid assumption that you were referring to ragequitting. It' wasn't realistic for me to assume you meant " in case teammates didn't attempt to rescue us", because that doesn't require one of you to be dead long before the other.
It's not reasonable at all given the post. It didn't mention anything beyond them attempting to self-unhook because they could see that no one was helping them and they had the perk to attempt a 4%. They even stuck around for the entire second stage when they didn't have to. You just assumed that the only reason someone would attempt to self-unhook is to go next, which is unfair.
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@oecrophy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000130#Comment_4000130
Nah. It doesn’t mean killers should always 4K — it means killers should have a real shot at a 4K vs ANY lobby. Hitting Ready isn’t an auto-lose against spezific lobbys. The outcome comes down to map/RNG, spawns, perk synergy, tiny (very little) misplays on both sides, and a couple won/lost 50/50 tiles. Even vs stacked top teams, killer should be able to win — without turning it into an auto-win for survivors the moment they make not huge missplays.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000125#Comment_4000125
And? I
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000137#Comment_4000137
know that. Cool, but does that 60% include DCs, hook suicides, meme games/throwing, over-agg saves that feed the killer, or SWFs that refuse a death and overcommit? If that stuff isn’t filtered, the number is noisy.Is it split solo vs SWF, and then by MMR? (A lot of SWFs aren’t great, and many have 1–2 weaker players.) Without that segmentation it’s just an average that can hide where a role lacks—or has too much—agency.Even if BHVR aims for 60/40, the aggregate doesn’t prove fairness. SoloQ can prop the rate up while coordinated SWFs are nearly unpunishable. Depending on how DCs / “let’s have fun with this killer” games / suicides / inefficiency are counted, the headline stat tells you more about player behavior than role balance.Balance is about capability, not a single outcome metric: can a well-played killer actually threaten a 4K vs any comp without praying for throw-tier mistakes, and can solid survivors convert smart macro into escapes? Publish segmented stats (MMR brackets, SWF vs solo, map, region, time of day, killer pickrate) and design to those—not one glossy number.Otherwise all this shows is that many survivor groups are sloppy, inefficient, too aggro or too passive—and sure, that inflates kills. But what about groups that play clean and efficient for the win? At that point the game swings survivor-favored, and your killrates won’t reveal it—they’ll just average it away.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4000137#Comment_4000137
true..
and.. the downvote ratio every time someone says anything even slightly pro-killer is wild.
but.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SX8AR1DVRTZT/r4545.jpg
.. its so funny. xD
It's a flaw of players more aligned with the Killer role to see Killer get negged and othered every time they speak their mind. It's not something that can be taken seriously. But what I can say is that I think being the 1 in the 1v4 scenario gives them a complex and that's always on full display.
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@sinkra said:
If 2v8 becomes permanent I would never play 1v4 again.
@vol4r said:
I mean if we get rid of pain points and frustrating things on the survivor side - I am fine with this.
I hate being sandwiched by the killers. It takes away the feeling of making impact in the match.
These are the two issues with it. The queue would fall apart and rely too heavily on play while you wait. 1v4 wouldn't die per se, but it would be destabilized as well.
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It's ultimately a leap of faith for whether players can believe if the changes will come back and if they do if they'll be in a better state or not. Fatigue dictates a lot of that, so I can't blame people for being doom and gloom about it. Being told that Survivors are overpowered while they're getting tunneled out in the majority of their trials does not help the problem, surprisingly.
All I can suggest is that you limit your play time for now. Don't get so invested that you get stressed out.
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@Sava18 said:
I think that if the community wants the game to get these base line changes for more enjoyment they need to realize that leaning towards competitive is better for them. Working out all of the unenjoyable parts and balance around it will make the game better but slightly more competitive. comp doesn't mean sweating, it just means balancing for people who are playing to win(NOT hardcore tunnel level but just not trolling). You can't balance out really strong "strategies" as much as I hate that word in dbds context without thinking of people actually trying to win.
People playing chest builds with no intention of winning don't really get to have an opinion what's enjoyable from their perspective or other people.
It's really hard to put into words but that's the gist of it.
I'm in the middle on this. I think healthy competition is good for DBD, but ever since MMR it's been balanced for the type of competition that doesn't fit this genre. You can't balance from the top down, nor can you add changes to make the game better for those in the middle on top of that to try to ease the tension. Ideally it has to favor the middle at all times, which means leaning more casual and toward healthier competition. It's why I think all of these changes can help, but they're just avoiding the elephant in the room of including a scaling difficulty system.
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Last week was brutal for Survivor, this week is brutal for Killer. I wish they'd just put these challenges to rest and make them boring and easy. I'm not being sarcastic about that either. At least we're not getting throw challenges as often, but I'd much rather we got something predictable that doesn't feel like such a pain to get through.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999485#Comment_3999485
I think these anti changes would hurt leke half the killers and 10 weaker ones would feel hardcore as hell because you can get same punishment as blight tunneling on 5 gens with trapper,legion getting first kill on 4 hook stages 1 gen left and if it would be the person that was hooked last you would get hit with gens being untegressable and unblockable which is tunneling as well but with c-tier on one gen left first kill I mesn its draw at best and blight tunneling on 5 gens can power through these changes still so they were overtuned which would meant hard time for all weaker killers, changes in people playing more ghouls and others stronger killers which isnt good for survivors getting same killers over and over no change. Crow changes were bad to but if you touched gens you were ok.
It's still not and will never be as bad because anti-tunneling and anti-slugging don't hit you with a DC penalty, nor is the DC penalty stronger with the patch like it was with anti-go next/afk. The game feeling terrible is valid, but the game not letting you play at all is something else entirely.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999450#Comment_3999450
Thats why they delayed these changes because they are more impactfull on gameplay than crows.
I don't think anything has ever been as bad as that first iteration of anti-go next/AFK crows. Solely because of the fact that it issued gameplay bans that carried harsher penalties than they did in the past for very big false flags. Anything else, even 6.1.0, didn't prevent players from playing the game entirely due to things beyond their control.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998951#Comment_3998951
Content creators and fog whisperers have been targeted by hackers who have even been able to track the ID and force their way into the lobby.
If there was a special queue it would have been revealed.
That's what I'm thinking too. I see it both being too unrealistic and unable to be hidden that easily. Then again, I'm cool with being proven wrong if it ever does come to light.
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It's compesual.
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@Pulsar said:
People are worried because, historically, when things have been pulled back, they usually get butchered and remain ineffectual.
Recent memory shows Fog Vials, for example.
More historically? Anti-Slug was pulled back once to be reworked and then got scrapped for multiple years.
Likewise, AFC sounded really good, but it didn't really end up changing a whole lot in terms of frustrating gameplay. If it was bugged and didn't let you unhook yourself, I doubt anyone would even notice.
I think there is a justified worry that BHVR is going to turn the system into something it shouldn't be, instead of addressing (as you said) the issues with the system, which are completely fixable.
Flashback to when we were in the era of "We tried anti-camping once 5 years ago, but it didn't work so that means we can never try ever again". Still kind of surprised it came back at all. 😵
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@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998946#Comment_3998946
As far as i know, survivor perks that get disabled in endgame are anti-tunnel perks, mostly because they could lead to lose lose situations for killers.
Since is tunneling is something that happens before the gates are powered its understadable why they deactivate when all gens are done. They would be doing more than they are intended for if they could be used to with powered gates. Also, that's the reason they are quite strong, because they punish one certain playstyle.
They're not strong enough to match camping/tunneling/slugging. That, along with the fact that they're disabled during endgame to help Killer catch up is what makes me say that it feels the way that it does. When the endgame felt like everything was being thrown out but the kitchen sink, it was a lot more enjoyable in my opinion.
@BoopsPlease said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998718#Comment_3998718
It's because very obviously, survivor players are collectively more casual, and will never interact with the outside community outside of playing the game. Survivor players HAVE to be at a higher number than killer players to keep matches flowing (which hasn't been the case for quite a while), frankly they just don't care anymore. It's been multiple years of "can't wait to play DBD!" 'queues into a 3k hour blight main slugging and tunneling gets off the game for a week hoping it'll get better'. They're fatigued like crazy. You quite literally can go play any other game on the market and feel like your time isn't being utterly wasted because you actually have a 50% chance to win, and even if you don't win in the vast majority of scenarios you will be able to find enjoyment in that game. No one finds enjoyment sitting on the ground for 4 minutes staring at their phone, no one finds enjoyment sitting in lobby for 2/5ths of their in match time because they got tunneled for just trying to have fun.
Someone said it a few days ago, the hyper competitive people who play this game are killing it, rapidly. They are the ones outcrying on the forums constantly because they need to win, even if they don't want to put the effort into getting better to. DBD is inherently a party game, it always has been, sadly this hyper-competitiveness isn't a DBD exclusive thing, BHVR has just done absolutely nothing to stop it from destroying the casual playerbase too.I've said for years now that DBD is a game that doesn't want to be played. It's like it rejects you. There are so many games that feel the opposite; that feel inviting. And when you play those and come back to DBD, it always feels so dire.
Sometimes I'll see these little clips of people having a great time in DBD and it makes me want to hop on too, but I know my experience won't be like that so I usually choose not to. Even when I hop on once or twice a week to do the challenges, I can be over it only a few trials in.
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999161#Comment_3999161
"BHVR has just done absolutely
nothingto stop it from destroying the casual playerbase"I've said a few times already, that 10 years in is (in my opinion) too late for these sorts of proposed changes. As someone who enjoys M1 and "weaker" killers, and who doesn't tunnel or slug, i can recognise how unpopular tactics help mask issues with certain killers and prevent them from getting their much needed updates. But BHVR let this stuff fester for too long, it is now ingrained in the game's culture, and they will experience pushback no matter what they do.
They may have an 'intended' way of playing the game, but they made no effort to teach it to players entering the game. Instead, they left it up to popular content creators, who are by and large more competitive, to carry this game to the point it's at 10 years later. Where the "optimal" ways to play, and the metas you expect everyone to subscribe to, have been well and truly established.
Obviously this is just my opinion, but I suspect all these changes theyre proposing to put through now is because theyre no longer retaining new players at the comfortable rate they once were. Because i think alot of new players enter this game casually, and most immediately determine that's not the experience theyre going to get and leave. The competitive folk stick around though. But the time for addressing this was years ago. Unless the compensation for not slugging or tunnelling is greater than the current benefits of doing so, the competitive side of DBD will pushback.
That's why I am trying to be optimistic about the future of this patch but there's so much that feels like we should be on year 4, not on the cusp on year 10. I can understand that the game might not have been in the best place at the start of year 6, but there's no denying the game has aged at twice the speed since then.
@cogsturning said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/BRI4N5OTBPWD/1992c94283544-screenshoturl.jpg
Another fun one from today. This killer downed me early and camped until I went second stage, then slugged everyone. Went AFK and left us all to bleed out for the whole timer. I got 5k BP for this match. The abandon feature is bs. You should be able to have some potential comeback from this behavior, especially with a flat-out refusal to hook.
That's why I'm still very lenient on DCs. These trials have been so common for so long that I can't blame anyone for developing game sense around it. If the Killer acts a very specific way from the start, you can tell where it's going. But that isn't something you know until the trial begins. And the unequal amount of effort it takes to combat it is entirely dependent on matchmaking, which isn't fair.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998751#Comment_3998751
After Chucky's release, they tightened matchmaking which set off all the content creators because their games (and winstreaks) suddenly became harder. IMO if someone is having winstreaks in the thousands then they should be in the highest MMR bracket and should be competing against survivors also in the highest bracket. Mandy assured me some time later that the matchmaking changes weren't reverted but it was definitely weird that all the content creators stopped complaining pretty quickly after their initial outburst and didnt mention it again.
I dunno. Matchmaking in this game is so shoddy but the lack of transparency around it makes me cynical that it's shoddy for most of us so a small number get what they want.
Timber mentioned something like that too and I'm still skeptical that they'd be able to implement a special queue for Fog Whisperers only. But I will say if that is true, it's pretty terrible (in my opinion).
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@BbQz said:
Best strategy why change? You honestly should be happy. How silly would it be to load up a competitive game and your doing your best to win, only to find out the other side was handicapping its self by playing nice so you could run around and play.
I do that for my daughter when we play since she's a child I would be pretty disrespected to find out people I compete with doing that to me.
To be fair, measures like shutting off several perks and basegame mechanics in endgame for Survivor and not Killer (when Killer should be at their strongest) gives the same vibe as the "youngest player goes first" rule with Candyland. I don't see why it's wrong to add something like that to Survivor as well.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
The problem with playing "optimally" in DBD is that the game is too imbalanced and janky to account for it. Tne maps and killers are wildly imbalanced relative to each other, the game is buggy and MMR is barely functional at any level.
If you're a killer player, and you are determined to win at all costs, and to optimize your set up and approach to accomplish that end, it kind of breaks the game. You almost have to be a potato to not 4K the vast majority of the time playing as a fully kitted out, hard tunneling Blight/Ghoul/Nurse/etc.
It's just a broken way to play, and says very little about the killer player's skill, while negating the survivor's skill. Much like a seal team 6 SWF, the game's mechanics simply weren't set up to account for it.
IMO, DBD is an absurd game to try to play optimally, because it's so imbalanced in just about every facet.
If you're playing and S or high-A tier killer and just hard tunneling the first survivor you find out, you're not expressing skill, you're exploiting shoddy game design. Sure, you might lose some games against really good teams, but you're not going to be challenged like 90% of the time.
I mean if a a killer wants to conflate winning like that with high skill play, that's their prerogative, but it's self-delusion. Not only that, but it will keep them from actually getting better. It's killer training wheels. I wouldn't at all say that the majority of killer players who were having tantrums about the proposed patch were just terrified of being exposed, but a whole lot were.
Like winning 90% of their games was their very identity. The same thing as a surv player who almost exclusively plays in SWF and is used to escaping but and gets absolutely rinsed when dipping a toe in solo queue.
Beyond that inflammatory take, I just don't get the appeal of minimizing the risk of losing to almost nothing. DBD is pretty clearly a game that was conceived as experience rather then outcome based game, but even so winning when I'm almost certain I'm going to win is just…boring. Like what does it prove to win from a position of massive advantage?
I'm as competitive as anyone in the right setting. DBD is not a great setting for competitive play (which is why "comp" DBD is so regulated and has to have all sorts of rules modifiers to even approximate a typical comp game). Public servers are just imbalanced chaos.
Being tunneled out by a Blight doesn't make me feel like I was outplayed in any meaningful way, the same way getting 0K or 1K against a coordinated comms SWF when I'm playing as Sadako doesn't really feel like a loss. It just feels like my time was wasted, and I genuinely wonder what they got of it.
I suspect a lot of these people aren't good enough to hack it at higher levels at properly balanced PvP games, and sweat at DBD to delude themselves.
What DBD can be, and what it should be (imo) is a fun experience. To me, trying to make it a serious test of "skill" is just lame. But to each their own, I guess.
It's funny because for all the flack old DBD got and how the game is now apparently "the most balanced it's ever been", we sure seemed to have a lot more fun pre-MMR. The motions to make the game more competitive have only hurt it.
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@bleep275 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998861#Comment_3998861
yeah im not gonna watch a 50 painfully boring and bias video. I dont watch people play video games anyway. I play the video game…why am i gonna watch some dude also play it?
but seeing how your phrase of the day is "how is it" i got one for ya
How is it that you guys cannot see past your own ego and see how harmful this is to a healthy, mutually enjoyable community?
yeah im not gonna watch a 50 painfully boring and bias video.Literally the same thing I thought. 🤣 I don't wanna watch someone else's long winded commentary when the point can be condensed and paraphrased all the same.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
My thoughts is whatever they ultimately decide, the effect should be at its strongest at 5 gens and get weaker as gens progress and are entirely removed by the last 2 gens. Tunneling early in the match is what is lame.
2 still seems like too much to me. For now, I'd rather it follow the same logic as other systems and shut off in endgame.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998330#Comment_3998330
Bagging at the gates is a psychological thing. The trial is already over. I'm not against the Killer being able to Abandon in that scenario, but it only affects one's time, not their gameplay.
Isn't the player's time important? Why should they spend their time getting BMed in game when they can just go next?
I've seen many complaints about t-bagging at the gates, specifically, and the answers were always either "suck it up" or "if you don't like it, try not losing". Any suggestions to let Killers opt out were brushed off. So, Killer players follow the latter piece of advice, only to hear "No, you're actually winning the wrong way, shame on you" — which prompts them to respond aggressively and be extremely defensive.
What I mean by that is that players need an incentive to play differently or not to go for the win every game. There is no point in simply appealing to them and asking them to play nice when in-game environment and priorities encourage doing otherwise—and both sides come up with reasons why they shouldn't play nice, based on their own experiences.
For example, a solid part of this incentive is rooted in providing them with options not to interact with sore winners. If a Killer can abandon a trial after all 4 gens pop and go back straight to their lobby, they no longer think about annoying opponents—they are out of sight and out of mind. Instead, they can go to the next game immediately. They will also feel more at ease during the next games—because they will always have this option, so they won't have to deal with toxic moments if they want to and thus, these moments won't linger on their mind, souring their mood and affecting their playstyle. Without this pressure ("win or get mocked"), much more players will be so obsessed with winning.
Another part of encouraging other playstyles would be introducing other rewards or objectives during the game. For instance, integrating tome challenges into the game automatically, so players could unlock charms and lore pieces (potentially related to the character they play at the moment) — in other words, assigning something that players can progress regardless of win or loss.
The community isn't going to fix itself, it can only be limited and incentivized to play differently by the game itself.
That was my point. Being able to Abandon respects their time and also spares any psychological wear they might feel. But comparing it to camping/tunneling/slugging is inappropriate. The former is rooted in social dynamics, while the latter is rooted in gameplay itself.
I'm all for improving the challenge system. The current one we have is much better than the old one in my opinion, but it could still do more.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997644#Comment_3997644
Maria has dark marks down her back where normal maps should be, it looks like her dimples etc are stained.
Cheryl looks like a giraffe and her hair is all wierd at the back
Cybils hair looks like its falling off her head at the back. even if the model doesn't look bad overall, the hair is like the main thing which needs fixed I feel.Those dimples drive me crazy. I feel like I've seen it on Nea or Meg before too.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997818#Comment_3997818
You can say the same for both sides. I always see survivors tbag in ext gates, especially when killer did poorly in the match.
Honestly while I don't like tunnel/camp/slug, I don't blame anyone doing it.
That's where I always struggle to understand things.
Camping/tunneling/slugging is a gameplay issue. It actively changes how someone is able to be in the trial, to the point that they can be flagging by the anti-go next system and receive a penalty for it (despite how rare that seems to be). Bagging at the gates is a psychological thing. The trial is already over. I'm not against the Killer being able to Abandon in that scenario, but it only affects one's time, not their gameplay.
Now I'm not saying you're doing this, but the two do seem to be conflated a lot and it makes me wonder how you can ever make the game better without harming Killers' ego (not ego as in "big ego" but as in their self-esteem).
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@CrossTheSholf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997851#Comment_3997851
You say that while talking about the ptb that did the same to killer. You don't want it fixed you just want to make killers miserable for a perceived slight
I think it's a fair reaction to be honest. Retribution is ultimately the wrong path to take and giving the system more time is good, but players need time to doom post about losing what would have made the game feel better for them. Especially given how chaotic people on the opposite end of the changes were acting before the delay was announced.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998215#Comment_3998215
A P1 Julie on Playstation. I screenshot killer DCs so I still have her name. I tried to message them afterwards to see what their problem was but their messages were locked, unsurprisingly.
I've had a lot of matches recently where people have been camped into second stage. Like, a lot. The radius needs an increase.
It's always a Susie for me. 😅 To the point where I'm like, thank God it's Frank.
Well look on the bright side—tunneling might be more prominent now as a hurrah for the changes being shelved. 😵
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998207#Comment_3998207
Them DCing really topped it off though lol
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998208#Comment_3998208
2v8 is just a different type of misery for me each time it reappears. When I was playing killer this time around I would briefly see the aura of cages coming out of the ground at certain times and I was like, "why am I seeing that??"
One question—was it a Susie?
I guess that's another feature like the anti-camp, which I'm guessing is "stronger than ever". 😝
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@YamamuraVideoRentals said:
Wow. This is literally going to break the game. And I mean seriously. Could be very unintended consequences.
Imagine if sadako moris 2 survivors without getting any hooks. Does that mean the remaining two survivors now have +50% repair speed?
What if she mori's all four? Will the server crash due to a bug? 🤣
Dear god I'm a sadako main and I just realized how much this is going to suck.
Totally unrelated but this reminds me of the time I perfectly timed a Flashbang with Nurse's Blink and it crashed the game. I wonder if it did that for all 4 of us lmao
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998149#Comment_3998149
I had a Legion yesterday who I managed to run quite a bit and whack with a lot of pallets (you have to be bad if I can run you). When she finally got me she hit me on hook and then camped me into second stage, then humped the next down. Real class act. Funny thing is, the ptb was not addressing that sort of camping at all, and it will only become more prevalent if and when the other modified changes go through.
I was tunneled in a 2v8 match. The killer kept coming right to the cage locations and always went for me, despite two or three other people being present each time. Cheap players will always find a way.
That's what made 2v8 suck so bad this time. A lot of tunneling and not enough comebacks once it started. It's starting to feel more and more like 1v4 in such a short amount of time.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
Demanding that it’s unfair and you should be able to quit if the killer kills anyone before 4 gens are completed basically sums up everything we’ve seen on this forum over the past couple of days.
To be entirely fair, asking for the Abandon feature to cover the exit gates opening on Killer is a routine topic here too. Players just want to feel like their time is valued.
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@Blueberry said:
Many people call things tunneling that aren’t tunneling, that’s the problem. Someone just happening to get hooked twice in a row isn’t tunneling. Tunneling requires intent behind it, such as ignoring other players and just wanting you. Just because I’m wondering around the map and happen to run into the person that was last hooked that isn’t tunneling. You can’t expect the killer to just be like oh dang my bad bro! Didn’t see it was you! Carry on mate. And then continue wondering around looking for someone different while he plops on a gen after you leave. That would be just silly. These scenarios are what lots of survivors consider tunneling though and expect the killer to do just that.
It's a hard thing to really define because despite the intention behind it, the results are the same. If a player feels like their time was wasted and/or they didn't have the tools to defend themselves, then the only difference between the two scenarios is a difference of .5-1k BP. I don't think that should be on either player to rectify, which is why I think BHVR stepping up to address these sorts of things is important to the health of the game. Like @Firellius said:
@Firellius said:
I actually appreciate BHVR's plan here. Instead of getting stuck in the weeds trying to pare down a system so it's only and exclusively restricted to a very specific thing (subsequently also requiring practically no effort to circumvent), they cast a wider net and gave compensatory buffs contingent on the behaviour they're aiming for. It creates a pretty decent gradient where the more you chase the buffs, the less the 'collateral' matters.
Only problems are the total genblock and Pig.
There needs to be positive and negative weights to shift the game in the right direction. Not just punishments like they've doled out as recently as a couple months ago. And hopefully how they handled this overall, despite being messy, is a positive sign.
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@PinheadGlazer said:
The build is No Mither, Conviction, Plot Twist and Unbreakable. Literally every single game I get these guys…?
That shouldn't make them faster at all. No Mither keeps them Broken so they can activate Plot Twist, then they use Unbreakable to hit the 25% on Conviction faster, get up, go down again after 30 seconds, repeat. It's a meme build. So it'd have to be something outside of that specifically.
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Why were they grieving? I'm sorry for their loss. 💔
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997998#Comment_3997998
I just went on Nightlight and uploaded some matches from random endgame screenshots I found on Google. According to Nightlight, I now have a 100% escape rate.
Do you still really want to stand behind your position that this is a valid data source that we and the devs should use to draw conclusions about game balance with?I don't think it has anything to do with the devs. All of our official references are outdated, so Nightlight is at least something to go off of. It'll never be totally accurate, but it's what we have access to.
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@sinkra said:
Time for a survivor boycott.
I say it all the time, but that would be quickly undone with a 3rd Resident Evil chapter. It's nearly impossible to affect the turnover rate strongly enough that you don't end up being replaced.
@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997374#Comment_3997374
The problem with solo queue is non-functional matchmaking system. I have no problem escaping consistently in solo queue with competent teammates who don’t get downed in 5 seconds or immediately get of their gen and hide in a corner at the slightest hint of a terror radius when the HUD is showing someone else being chased.
Being able to consistently escape in matches with competent teammates has convinced me that the core problem with the game is not killer vs survivor balance or tunneling, slugging, camping, etc. It’s bad teammates who don’t know how to play the game.It really depends. When the stars align, the game is more viable and more fun for Survivor. That doesn't change the fact that we still get Killers who will aggressively camp/tunnel/slug from the very start of the trial before I even know I have good synergy with my teammates. Or that the game still doesn't do all that it can to help Killer pull in extra kills at/near the end of the trial, regardless of how they performed.
All that to say that I agree with you, but I only think it's one part of the issue. At some point it might be worth considering adjustments that scale between MMR brackets and things like that.
@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997716#Comment_3997716
I don't want to, I play pvp games like overwatch and league because my chance of winning is close to 50%, DBD is actual dogpoop the strongest killer mains easily win 70-90% of the time it's ridiculous, right now multiple streamers have winstreaks in the hundreds
it's proven you can literally win 1900 blight games or 1000 nurse games in a row if you tunnel hard enough, the crying from killer mains is genuinely insane… am i the only one who see this or what ?!
During that Blight streak a couple of years ago, someone said that the disparity between the big comp teams points to a fundamental imbalance with the game. That despite any variables, you shouldn't have one side maintaining a 10x higher win streak. The answer might be that Blight is too strong. It might be that Survivor is too weak. Whatever it is, it's there and it's not invisible.
@MechWarrior3 said:
I am glad they are holding off while they refine the details. I was being punished on the PTB when I wasn’t even tunneling and half the people in that thread think it’s fair?
Right……I’d rather them fix it and do it right then push out something so restrictive and if they did survivors absolutely would be waiting on a long line of Queues.I agree with @ChaosWam while not word for word but in my own the forums has been so miserable the last several days because the community CONSTANTLY wants to make it a war between Survivor and Killer. Like just stop. ✋
It’s difficult having a reasonable conversation with half of the community because they think and speak with their feelings instead of making reasonable feedback, with real time solutions/ideas.It's a delicate situation. While you're absolutely right, it becomes a problem when the anti-go next/AFK crows fiasco was so recent and much more dire. I wanna say they've learned from it and hopefully that's what we're seeing now, but those consequences still exist.
I think we can all agree that the way they handled the situation overall has contributed the most to the unrest.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997639#Comment_3997639
Yeah it definitely got twisted. Oh, your recent survivor matches are bad? It's not because survivor is rough, it's because you suck. But your recent killer matches are good? It's not because killer is easier, it's because you're lying about tunneling and slugging. Actually no, those must be someone else stats.
It was totally ridiculous.
They're totally passive too. You can have rates well above or well below the average week-to-week. None of it matters any more than the amount of upvotes or downvotes you get on any given post, but people will hold those in high regard as well.
@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997459#Comment_3997459
I feel this way too. It's way easier to do things to help lower MMR Survivors and Killers to become at least average at the game. I can think of ways BHVR could help my teams out, but for whatever reason they're just no doing any of them (as well as now putting anti-tunnel and anti-slug on the back burner).
But I'm never, ever going to reach the tippy top of high MMR, no matter how long I play for. So why would BHVR balance the game for the very best if most players will never, ever get there? The top guys will take care of themselves and will always find ways to adapt, no matter what BHVR do. That's why they're up there, after all.
BHVR knew the systems were over tuned for high level play, that's why they can be turned off in custom matches.
Top-down balancing could be fine in other PVP games, but I don't think it's viable in asymmetrical ones like DBD. It's just a very different kind of experience. Like you said, the majority suffers so that the most powerful players don't get too powerful regardless of how many of them there are and will ever be. I don't think the solution is to nerf them or to keep necessary buffs in check. I don't even know that it's solely matchmaking's fault either, since other systems with totally random results seem to offer more dynamic trials.
Whatever the ideal solution ends up being, this patch was headed in the right direction I think. We'll see if that sticks when it comes back around.
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@naeveragedjoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3987036#Comment_3987036
i hope you have the f word pass 😂
Don't we (David mains) all 😭
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I agree that there are too many variables that are highly likely to be unwinnable and that the Abandon feature could cover more so that it creates less time wasted for players. But at that point, I think we could just get to the heart of the matter and nix anti-go next.
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I'm in the middle here.
They are right that it did feel too punishing for Killers and acknowledging that is important. You don't want game balance to result in players feeling like they're walking on eggshells. A system like this should be respected, not feared.
Likewise, the fatigue is very real. Keeping a system that feels too punishing for Survivor in favor of an update that feels too punishing on Killer certainly doesn't feel nuanced at all. A lot of Survivors had hope that this patch would finally make the game feel more tolerable and without it, why queue up at all?
All I can say is that they have proven this year that they can shelve something and bring it back reworked within a few patches (yes I'm talking about anti-go next, but still). The idea that these changes were even proposed at all and they were mostly good is also a shocker. Those two things alone aren't enough for me to decide that BHVR is absolved of all past mistakes quite yet, but it is enough for me to give them some grace in seeing what they do next.
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You know, I really don't buy this idea that VHS fell apart solely because of Monster. I do agree that the odds were stacked against Monster, but it's also not as if Werewolf didn't made quick work of the Teens either. The larger picture, in my opinion, is that VHS offered very little that completely set it apart from DBD and it had a boring loop. The queues didn't help either. But it did walk so other competitors could run, so I do still respect it all the same.
In addition to that, we can say whatever we want, but the first part of the post is why DBD is the only one that lasts—"it's extremely hard to set up an asymmetric game of any kind that works". I'd go one step further and say that it's impossible. You're essentially turning a PVE game into a PVP and hoping that nothing breaks in the process and that all parties are satisfied. Outside of a private lobby of a few friends, that's a very tall ask. And as close as other games have gotten to getting it right, they can never please enough people to stay afloat. If we're being completely honest, DBD has survived because of licenses. There's not enough there otherwise to keep players invested long term.
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@UndeddJester said:
I feel like this has only gotten worse since the downvote system came back in.
Used to be that when people disagreed they had to respond and back up their point with receipts to argue for their side, and that inherently makes it harder to be tribal, cause receipts takes effort, and the argument with more receipts tended to win.
Now we have it so any argument with evidence and effort, but going against someone's narrative or pointing out facts that people don't want to hear, can instead just be ratiod and ignored... allows people to stick in their tribal echo chamber.
It's not a good system to be honest. I think the community lacks enough maturity to be able to handle it. And even if they did, one's observations don't live or die on it.
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I actually don't hate Heather's DBD face. It feels a little more like what she could look like if she were designed by Sato.
But while we're at it, I do have some gripes too.
- Cybil's outfit is more based on the Silent Hill movie, which feels very bizarre. Her silhouette isn't as nice as the original game. Minor gripe, I admit but still.
- James' outfit is mostly correct, but he's wearing loafers instead of his leather boots. That always drives me crazy.
- Likewise, Maria's outfit is almost perfect but her shoes are wrong. I understand we can't have high heels, but short heels with the red bottoms would still be very welcome.
- I'm very happy with Lisa overall, but her skirt is way too short. That might be a limitation of the engine though.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997521#Comment_3997521
The emotional response has now flipped to the other "side." It's not going to be as loud, I imagine. More like the gloom and defeat that settled around the destruction of fog vials.
Yeah, you can't always assume, but some people hide their biases better than others. Many out themselves with their wording by saying things like "you survivors [this]" and "killers always [that]".
Throughout this fight, because I dared to say things like "let's test it out before we decide how we feel" or "the survivor experience has become miserable, particularly in soloq, and needs a boost" I've been accused of never playing killer, posting both killer and survivor stats that weren't mine, and lying about not tunneling and slugging. Received a couple nasty insults as well. Being emotional is one thing, being deranged is another, and some people have been just that.
Don't let anyone bait you into posting your stats. It'll just get twisted in whatever way they want the argument to go regardless. Your ideas should stand on their own and they can agree or disagree based on that.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997366#Comment_3997366
The thing is that this machanic hurts all levels of play. High MMR is affected drastically now, how am I supposed to kill a single person before all gens are done if I'm not playing a top 5 killer and not emergency tunneling? (Made up term but essentially its when you tunnel purely cus the only way you can win at this point is by slowing gen pressure down. Through swiftly ridding of a survivor.)
I think it averages around the center. High MMR will always have to be played differently and the lowest MMR is still getting the hang of things. The majority that hover around the center have to be prioritized in my opinion.
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When it comes to the boys at least, this has already been in effect. Fortnite hair. 😭😭😭😭 We hate to see it.
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I don't think it's possible. That ship has sailed. That's why I say rotating queues are healthy for games like this. Players hate it, but it forces them to see the bigger picture for both sides.
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@Nazzzak said:
I said this the other day but the reaction was incredibly embarrassing. Even the way certain content creators reacted was mind boggling. Constructive criticism and feedback is great and necessary, and there was certainly plenty of that. But the way some adults behaved, like BHVR had taken out their whole family or something, I know they'll look back in future and cringe. I was truly embarrassed by the community.
I don't know that they will. I feel like their heels are dug into the ground on this one. 😵
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997196#Comment_3997196
It's easy to forget all the new content, tbh.
Don't know how strong she will be, but I really like the new Killer's design and Vee is such a cutie. And it's gonna be fun to whip out my tambourine and play it in the face of the angry hornet's nest of tunnelling Killers that BHVR have now whipped up into a frenzy for us. Silver linings and all that…
But yeah, feels like we only just got the Walking Dead yesterday and yet here it is, more content… Phew.
Tell me about it. All I do is a brief read through the new perks, see that they're all uninteresting compared to what I already run, and then hop in. New Killer tunnels relentlessly every trial, so there's no reason to try to bone up on their powers or perks before I go against them. All around boring, in my opinion. But at least the new Survivors can be fun to play. I like Rick, even if he burps on the hook.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996984#Comment_3996984
Yet this is exactly what they did with afk crows and "go next".
Crows were briefly tested and the feedback given was that they were "too strong and punishing". That feedback was completely ignored, the version was pushed live with zero changes, no delay, and no "consideration for feedback".
"Go next" wasn't even tested, and went live in a highly abusable state.
Only the loud backlash after going live made a difference. At least for crows, since go next was pulled, then stealthily put back in with no patch notes and no changes, and is currently live in the same state where being hard tunneled can penalize the survivor.
So BHVR is wildly inconsistent at listening to the "loud feedback", as well as watching for "abusable scenarios" apparently.
I am so glad I was on vacation during that patch. It was reverted the day after I got home so I never had to experience it. 😅
