BoopsPlease
BoopsPlease
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Okay, I briefly read through this, but I can't really agree with your stances. DBD is inherently not a very competitive game, and you are coming from a competitive mindset, the vast majority of players play to have fun, not to win. The problem of solo q survivor being awful to play isn't because people aren't winning, because obviously metrics show otherwise, its the game is just not fun to play by yourself as a survivor because of how many negative things can impact that fun for what is literally no downside to other players. Body-blocking as a survivor is seen as "troll" by 99% of the community, but in reality its the correct strat in almost all scenarios if you are trying to win as a solo survivor. Tunneling is seen as toxic by the majority of the community but is still done rampantly because its effective and the best way to win as killer. Its not about SWFs vs solo q, or low tier or high tier killers. It's about competitive vs casual audiences and how they fundamentally cannot mix. You constantly see "1600 winstreak on x killer", this is abnormal for any game that is competitive, because you would never be able to actually do that in a game that respects both sides equally in an enjoyable way, and frankly even watching some of those videos to see what these people do (99% of the time its hard tunneling at 5 gens), the killers doing it don't seem like they're having fun either. People need to realize there are times and places for every mindset, and DBD public matches are not a place to be sweating 100% of the time you play, the game is not meant for the kind of push people are throwing on it and have been for quite a while. This is something BHVR needs to address, and quickly at that. People on every single forum are complaining about how they have quit because of how un-fun the game is from both sides, or are becoming for frustrated than enjoyed while playing.
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@paranoidmad80 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/456502/ranked-mode
I´m against it. If hidden MMR is important to you (a number you can't see anyway) and you really want to sweat and win, then play to win. There is also a small active comp scene with tournaments. Feel free to take a look around the internet. Besides, a ranking system only leads to toxicity. Pe*** comparisons that nobody needs. Just my opinion
We already have the game being killed by overly toxic competitive players anyway. Remember fog vials? Casual players are leaving the game a quite a fast rate, the players brought in by FNAF are already gone and the player numbers show. Avg 40k players at 7pm EST isn't a good look, especially when killers have been given the A-OK to tunnel and slug to no end so we can most likely expect the number to be dropping more. If BHVR is not going to do anything about toxic strats existing they need to do something about splitting the competitive playerbase and the casual playerbase, because both cannot coexist at the same time.
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@Batzu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999219#Comment_3999219
I feel that this is too imprecise and non descriptive to actually give a good response to but I'm going to try anyway. I guess I can start with the fact that you focused on infrastructure and kinda just refuted it with nothing descriptive or precise and haven't really asked about whether or not more gens and hooks would be a good idea to pad out time to allow for fun.
One final addition is that you aren't really acknowledging the cost to your ability to enjoy the game if you consistently lose more and perform worse when you take time to do stuff like totems and chests as opposed to focusing on gens. So I guess if I could pick any one of these things to ask you to answer I'd like to know exactly what you do for fun instead and how it affects your game. Because another part of it is I think there might be a disconnect with what we're talking about with fun and/or free play.
I specifically just chose that part to reply to because I frankly have no rebuttal or agreement to make on the other points made. But I find the most fun as a survivor when I am running around playing the instruments, haven't taken off Bardic Inspiration since it was released. I know i am actively putting myself at a disadvantage when playing because I realize the perk is bad, but I enjoy it. The outcome of the game doesn't matter to me as long as I had fun. (Do i enjoy the state of the game outside of that? No, but that's a different conversation).
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@Batzu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999184#Comment_3999184
The problem here is even though you are correct in the fact that owners of a game are at liberty to play how they want, but we have to acknowledge that we don't really have the infrastructure to support going around and doing side objectives all game without seriously harming the chances of the whole team. If dead by daylight revolved around longer matches fundamentally maybe we could have room for that but put simply, all we got is perks to work with to actually make doing side objectives viable outside cleansing hexes. Most players haven't bought every single dlc that lets them have the tools to finish side objectives efficiently. So we're kinda caught in this catch 22 where even though in a good world you would be correct in making this statement, there are several underlying failures that make free play impractical in dead by daylight. While people can say it's a party game or a comp game, fundamentally it's a game that runs against a time limit scaling with player skill, and because skill is reflected in distracting the killer or getting gens done efficiently, this kinda takes up the space meant for side objectives. So I would posit the fault is not necessarily with the players as a whole, but rather with development and directors for making a game that rushes players rather than giving them time to enjoy themselves. Hook stages and gens aren't fundamentally bad but there needs to be a ton more of both to make the game last long enough for personal enjoyment to be part of the discussion in a way that doesn't end with resolving to play like a sweatlord or gambling on whether you even have fun.
No, they do have the infrastructure to do that. Because DBD is inherently not meant to be played to win. Especially from the survivor side, if you win you win. Once you change your mindset to "just enjoy the game" it becomes significantly more fun.
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You are saying people aren't allowed to play a game they paid for the way they wanted? Not every single game needs to be played exactly the way some youtuber told you. Someone going into the match to do a chest build or to complete a challenge is still well within their rights to play the game that way.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3999161#Comment_3999161
Yeah, I agree. I just recently said I think the forum is a particularly bad example of the majority player. I see a whole bunch of people with KRs and ERs well over the goal number, some KRs outrageously so. I don't think these people can objectively view the game anymore, even if they play both roles.
I play a lot, but I'd be considered casual in my approach. I have a 60% KR and a 40% ER. Literally The Average Player at likely mid MMR. The views I see don't feel like they reflect that experience at all. It's like they're playing a different game than I am.
What you say about other games has been on my mind for awhile. Aside from the 40% majority loss goal for survivors, there's also the fact that if you die, you're out. If I log on to a CoD game for the first time, I'll be terrible, but I'll get to be around for the whole match, and no one can really incapacitate me. It's that feeling that you didn't even get to play at all that kills the survivor role. When I play killer, I intentionally spread hooks and try to keep everyone around for awhile. I want the match to feel full and even. But consideration and empathy are for the "casual" mindset, I guess.
I've played Overwatch for 9 years now (started during the beta), and even during the HEIGHT of the most toxic formats I have never seen the community band together to play whats "meta" collectively, posts from the time even show it with GOATS, casual players played what they loved. This changed during 2019-2020 or so, everyone being forced on the internet for so long forced people into bubbles of watching youtube videos (mainly by high ELO players) and started enforcing stricter and stricter Metas.
I wasn't around in 2020, so I don't know if that's when the swap happened as well for DBD, but I saw it in multiple games I played, every single pvp-adjacent game had stricter and stricter metas, and more and more toxic players if you didn't adhere to them. Hell we see it currently, hundreds of comments on the forums of "you suck just git gud", I find no enjoyment in "getting good" at DBD, why would I force myself to get better when I know it would make me enjoy the game less (which is the obvious fact that most people who do tryhard do not enjoy the game unless they win), I could theoretically put in many more hours than the average person (disabled so I don't work outside of housework), but then I would be treating the game like a job, also, not enjoyable.
A lot of the people the comments come from about how competitive games need to be if they are pvp are younger, and I know i personally was a more competitive person when I was younger. But in reality they need to grow up and see video games as what they really are, escapes from the outside world, and enjoyment, its a form of media that you are meant to spend time enjoying, not putting all your effort into. So no, the 3k subs you got on youtube for reaching a 1k blight winstreak isn't "kickstarting" your career, its removing your enjoyment from what is suppose to be a hobby, and not a job. -
@Awkquido said:
With the recent QoL patch being rolled back, I'm curious what DBD is.
I dont see it being like League of Legends competitive ranked queue. Although since it has a ranking and MMR that means it's not a party game?
So what is DBD. Is the point to see how good you can get or how theoretically high you can go? Theres no ladder aside from ranks that you basically cant demote from and get to red rank by just playing enough.
At what point do players weigh having fun versus wanting to win with a competitive mindset.
Basically with the supposed changes it seems like theres an issue between a player getting to enjoy and play the game versus a player wanting to win regardless of how its done. What is BHVRs goal for this game, is it about getting a win or is it about having an enjoyable game for both sides.
I always thought DBD was a chill party game to enjoy with friends but it feels like I'm wrong.
If you want the original design for this game? Not at all. But there is an insane influx of Late Gen-z kids that see everything as competitive, mainly ones who graduated HS during Covid (or after), you do not see this with older people nearly as often. You can see it in every single game out now, people are incredibly toxic and need to do everything in their power to win. The problem is BHVR has done nothing to separate these people from the "casuals" or the rest of the community. The survivor players that has no interest in "getting better" because they enjoy the game for being a casual mess around with your friends horror game. Or the Killers that only play jumpscare myers, or "friendly" Ghostface. The community has no disconnect to differentiate the two, there is nothing telling the 4 people who are bringing toolboxes are trying out some new gen-rush with BNP or they are just 4 randoms who are trying to get tomes done. There is no telling if the Blight you are facing is some 3k hour sweatlord or someone going for Adept (until after the game).
Personally BHVR needs to address this, its hurting the game and its rightfully shown. Both casual survivors and killers are fatigued, killers don't want to wait 10 minutes to play their funny builds or mess around with others. Survivors don't want to queue to be tunneled at 4-5 gens or eat dirt for 4 minutes. Either this game needs stricter MMR restrictions or it needs a "competitive" mode that is forced on the hyper-competitive players. (Or a plethora of other options, I'm not working on the game, these are just my opinions as a fatigued player who was looking forward to the game I loved actually being enjoyable from a casual standpoint) -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3998692#Comment_3998692
Survivor mains just don't seem to be as loud. There are a few here, but I see many more that are more attached to the killer role, even though there must be more people playing survivor for the numbers to work.
Maybe that's because a 40% goal bakes-in the expectation or failure for survivor. Most of the time I just feel beaten down as survivor and it's kind of exhausting. As killer, not so much. I feel like I've always got a good chance. I've lost 10 survivor matches in a row more than once and that feels depressing but not abnormal. I've never lost ten killer matches in a row.
It's because very obviously, survivor players are collectively more casual, and will never interact with the outside community outside of playing the game. Survivor players HAVE to be at a higher number than killer players to keep matches flowing (which hasn't been the case for quite a while), frankly they just don't care anymore. It's been multiple years of "can't wait to play DBD!" 'queues into a 3k hour blight main slugging and tunneling gets off the game for a week hoping it'll get better'. They're fatigued like crazy. You quite literally can go play any other game on the market and feel like your time isn't being utterly wasted because you actually have a 50% chance to win, and even if you don't win in the vast majority of scenarios you will be able to find enjoyment in that game. No one finds enjoyment sitting on the ground for 4 minutes staring at their phone, no one finds enjoyment sitting in lobby for 2/5ths of their in match time because they got tunneled for just trying to have fun.
Someone said it a few days ago, the hyper competitive people who play this game are killing it, rapidly. They are the ones outcrying on the forums constantly because they need to win, even if they don't want to put the effort into getting better to. DBD is inherently a party game, it always has been, sadly this hyper-competitiveness isn't a DBD exclusive thing, BHVR has just done absolutely nothing to stop it from destroying the casual playerbase too. -
@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997995#Comment_3997995
Ok if I’m not allowed to have an opinion based on my on experience, then let’s use the overall escape rate stats. On average, survivors escape 40% of the time. Apparently this is way too killer-sided. So what should the average escape rate be then? At high MMR 4-man SWF it’s 45%. I have no idea what my MMR is but I do know what when I face a full team of coordinated SWF who are all very good at looping I have to sweat my butt off to get kills. I’m not a god-level killer and I don’t play the s-tier killers. Maybe I’m just very bad at killer, but I’ve seen plenty of other killer players on this forum with similar feedback. Is this game only going to be not “killer-sided” if the average escape rate is 45% or higher for all players?
50% like any BALANCED game should be.
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@Blueberry said:
Many people call things tunneling that aren’t tunneling, that’s the problem. Someone just happening to get hooked twice in a row isn’t tunneling. Tunneling requires intent behind it, such as ignoring other players and just wanting you. Just because I’m wondering around the map and happen to run into the person that was last hooked that isn’t tunneling. You can’t expect the killer to just be like oh dang my bad bro! Didn’t see it was you! Carry on mate. And then continue wondering around looking for someone different while he plops on a gen after you leave. That would be just silly. These scenarios are what lots of survivors consider tunneling though and expect the killer to do just that.
No, tunneling does not require intent. The same garbage killer just happening to find the person 15 seconds after unhooking and downing them until they die on hook IS TUNNELING no matter what. It doesn't matter if one other person got hooked during this time. A survivor was forced out of the game significantly earlier than what should be the case and now the killer has an incredibly easy time in a 3v1. This is exactly why tunneling existing in the game in the first place was a goddamn mistake. People are now trying to spin this into a "I am holier than thou" because they tunnel in a slightly different way than the 3k hour blight main leaving chase to go kill someone immediately. 99% of killers on these forums would have triggered the anti-tunnel every single game if they actually played with the changes instead of just insulting and threatening BHVR over and over again. Because they are tunneling. BHVR THEMSELVES HAVE NOW DEFINED WHAT TUNNELING IS ACCEPT IT
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@Willish said:
Nah, keep playing.. But hit them where it hurts. Consider updating your review on whatever platform you're playing on and don't spend a single penny in the game..
No. Stop playing. Full stop. There is nothing in this game that will respect your time. Hurt BHVR where they care the most. Their wallet. Personally I've already put my report in on steam that the game is false advertising, because thats what it currently is. Its not a back and forth, its a "you queue for survivor and have to suffer through being someones torture victim" that's not the game I spent my money on.
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I quit 3 months ago, was incredibly excited to come back and play the game and hopefully be able to enjoy it. But sadly that will never happen because BHVR catering to killers is like humans needing to drink water.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997215#Comment_3997215
I'd like to start a full band with One-Two-Three-Four and Bardic Inspirtation but I'm worried fun might be illegal.
Fun actually is illegal, only if you play as survivor though.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/456077/killers-crying-about-changes-once-again
Did you actually try playing killer with these changes? If not, maybe you should before drawing a conclusion that they are totally fine and not overly punishing.
Yeah actually. I did. And they were fine. Never once tunneled in any games on the PTB and still came away with quite a few 3 and 4ks. Just because you can't play the game without tunneling doesn't mean others can't and wont. Survivors deserve to enjoy the game too, they are 80% of the playerbase, or do you want every survivor player to leave so BHVR is forced to put bots into public matches just so your queue times don't hit 3 hours?