TheSubstitute
TheSubstitute
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790789#Comment_3790789
dude, once again, give players an actual incentive not to camp and tunnel instead of making another punishing system to catter to people that refuse to play against those strategies. Further punishing strategies that don't work on skilled players will have completely counterproductive effect and will make bad players be even worse because they will rely on BHVR punishing their opponents more.
Feel free to explain how moving tunnelers up the MMR ladder quickly so they're placed against people who can counter tunnelling is a punishment. Are you saying tunnellers should instead be placed against teams that don't have the cohesion or experience to counter tunnelling so they can get easy wins? Do you consider tunnellers being quickly moved up the ladder so they're appropriately placed against teams that can counter tunnelling a punishment? Because that sure sounds like wanting easy wins if you say that's what you consider a punishment.
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@Alphamax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790787#Comment_3790787
Then you should play another game. I don't know what else to tell you.
That's the same business strategy Hellbent did with VHS. It worked wonders.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790785#Comment_3790785
I assure you you're wrong and haven't understood my post. My data is all at my MMR and at the survivors that are at my MMR. If you had read my post you would have realized I stated it applied to my experience and those of the survivors I play with. If you understood how the Elo system works you would also realize the problems with your statement
if you understood how the MMR system works, you would understand that there is NO such a thing as high MMR in this game because everybody betwee 1600 (soft cap) and 2200 (hard cap) MMR points is considered as if they are one same skill level.
"But that means BHVR intentionally catters to killers by having such bad MMR system" - no, BHVR changed MMR system literally because players are too entitled to having instant queue times that they would rather have their match be found in <20s than have a match with people who are truly of similar skill level of theirs at a cost of longer queue times.
If you feel it's good game design to have an easily available tactic that's available to one side and not the other that can guarantee a 90% or over win rate for segments of your gaming population then you're very wrong. You sound like the Teens who were defending the Monster role in VHS and the pre 6.1 defenders of Dead Hard who brought up the exact same arguments you did but just for Survivors instead of for Killers.
my dear brother in Christ, basically every game has strategy/characters that are elo inflated. For example, Nasus in League of Legends does tremendous wonders against low elo players, while he literally falls to C tier in high elo.
It's more like dbd community is full of people poisoned by fortnite mindset (we all know how much of a negative impact fortnite had on PvP games, dbd is one that suffered from that syndrome the most) and are acting like broken things are cool as long as they can win, while anything that is merely a low elo stomping thing is considered bad because of players not willing to improve.
If you're that biased it's not really possible to have a productive conversation. You can, of course, if you want to show it's not that much of an issue for you to record 100 Survivor matches and show how much it's not an issue for you.
biased? I have played more than enough PvP games to actually learn mindset of average PvP player, and if i wanted i could grab 3 other survivor players of my skill level, don't even use comms nor show them my loadouts, and we could have an average of at least 3-men out. You know why? Because we share the same goal and nobody will want to do random things that will grief the match.
Also, comp doesn't represent the majority of the playerbase; mid MMR does and it's disingenous to the point of being an outright lie to represent tourney players as being representative of the DbD population or to have 'the barest idea of what they're doing' instead of consisting of the highest skilled population.
ohh great, because skilled players don't represent majority of the playerbase and some "mid MMR" does, we should balance the game around bad players and make it unplayable on one side once we even it out so that bad players can have chance against average killers, but skilled players can absolutely torture every killer in the game. Literally the worst possible balancing advice you can make for the game.
If you want to argue in bad faith to support an unearned and disproportionate advantage just as the defenders of pre 6.1 DH did that's your prerogative. Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously
now we are purely comparing apples and oranges, aren't we?
Feel free to post your own set of 100 to 175 survivor games so you have your own data then. As it is, you don't understand why if one tactic gives a win rate of over 90% at one level of MMR when the win rate is 56% at the exact same level of MMR then that poses an issue. If you don't understand why I can't help you.
It's not apples and oranges though. There are people who like easy wins and can't envision the whole but instead favour one side in a show of tribalism. That's why it's apples to apples.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790782#Comment_3790782
yes, i play soloQ a lot more than i even play SWF, and you know how matches go?
- teammates completely allergic to gens;
- teammates getting 2-tapped in literal M1 chases;
- teammates playing for some random challenge objectives and completely not caring about how the match goes for others;
- teammates giving up on 1st hook because "omg i couldn't have fun playing on autopilot and being able to win"
- 2-men SWFs with flashlights constantly just lurking for the eventual saves and never touching gens when they have nothing else to do;
etc.
And now you want to tell me that it's the actual game that favors killers heavily and not players themselves who are literally gifting killers 4k on a plate?
That also shows you didn't read my post. I said the data suggests that Killers that don't camp and tunnel might need a small buff as the average escape rate was at 44% under those conditions and BHVR wants 40%.
However, the disproportionate effect of tunneling affects kill rates due to how BHVR measures its data and that is obscuring that there is a case to be made for minor buffs once camping and tunneling is removed from the equation.
Please take the time to read posts in the future.
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@Alphamax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790758#Comment_3790758
- Bad idea. Cages removes critical gameplay features.
- Another bad idea. Survivors shouldn't be awarded for bad plays.
- You don't stop making bad ideas do you? Killers that tunnel shouldn't be rewarded by increasing their MMR. You only incentivize killers to do more tunneling.
- Untrue and yet another bad idea. Camping and tunneling existed before emblems were changed and it was worse than ever before. Nobody cares enough about emblems killers will keep doing it again.
There is no changing to it. You have to understand that it's the game's own flaw. There is nothing you can do about it.
The only bad idea would be leaving in a feature that allows for such a disproportionate and undeserved advantage.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790775#Comment_3790775
did you read my post at all?
Tunneling as a strategy never ever saw a high success rate in actual high skill matches (be sure to check so many tourney/scrims and DbDL matches) because of how situational it is against any team that has the bare idea of what they are doing.
Maybe provide us with some better info, like total average chase time of a tunneled survivor, or what other survivors are doing while the specific one is "being tunneled". The situation is not as black and white as you are trying to present it, and your research is basically just some raw info to support a "tunneling OP" narrative rather than having some depth so that we can see why is tunneling actually rampant and so successful in pubs, while seeing ~70% less success in high skill matches unless you were actually able to get a very fast first chase and first down.
I assure you you're wrong and haven't understood my post. My data is all at my MMR and at the survivors that are at my MMR. If you had read my post you would have realized I stated it applied to my experience and those of the survivors I play with. If you understood how the Elo system works you would also realize the problems with your statement
If you feel it's good game design to have an easily available tactic that's available to one side and not the other that can guarantee a 90% or over win rate for segments of your gaming population then you're very wrong. You sound like the Teens who were defending the Monster role in VHS and the pre 6.1 defenders of Dead Hard who brought up the exact same arguments you did but just for Survivors instead of for Killers.
If you're that biased it's not really possible to have a productive conversation. You can, of course, if you want to show it's not that much of an issue for you to record 100 Survivor matches and show how much it's not an issue for you.
Also, comp doesn't represent the majority of the playerbase; mid MMR does and it's disingenous to the point of being an outright lie to represent tourney players as being representative of the DbD population or to have 'the barest idea of what they're doing' instead of consisting of the highest skilled population.
If you want to argue in bad faith to support an unearned and disproportionate advantage just as the defenders of pre 6.1 DH did that's your prerogative. Just don't expect anyone to take you seriously
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790769#Comment_3790769
what about: fix MMR system for everyone instead of asking BHVR do that only to those "tunneling" killers. But honestly, seeing 4k+ hours survivors not being able to hold an M1 chase for longer than 20s on average rather tells me average survivor player just doesn't want to improve at all
Did you even read my post? If the escape rate is 9% in games when Killers tunnel but close to BHVR's 40% rate when Killers don't tunnel the problem is the tunnelers.
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My TLDR Summary
My escape rate has dropped from 45.3% overall to an abysmal 26%. The other survivors in my games have only a 31% escape rate.
The number of tunneling in my games has increased from 5.3% in the past to 26% now.
The low escape rates are because tunnelling produced a Killer win in over 90% of games I saw it in. There were 25 Killer wins (3K or 4K) versus 1 Survivor win (3E).
Tunnelling is even more of a crutch and has more of a disproportionate effect on win rates than pre 6.1 Dead Hard.
As tunnelling is overly effective and an elo system was never designed for asymmetrical groups the current Kill/Escape criteria corrupts the data for solo queue survivors.
Either get rid of tunnelling or give tunnelling such high MMR gains that tunnellers move to the highest MMR brackets super fast.
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I didn't post earlier because I was preparing a thorough but rather long post about this explaining my point of view if you want to read it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/425642/the-decline-of-survivor-game-quality-over-years#latest
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So what can be done?
In my opinion there are a few things. First of all, BHVR could introduce cages similar to how they were in 2v8 and have multiple potential spawn locations. You can’t tunnel or camp very well if you don’t know where the survivors are. If there are Killers trying to learn the spawn locations just change the cage so the timer stops when a Killer enters the area while the cage resets or refreshes if it’s done multiple times.
Another way would be to introduce a repair speed bonus each time a Survivor is killed perhaps before a certain number of hooks. If somebody wants to tunnel someone out to sway the game in their favour use repair speeds to even the odds. If BHVR wants to be really kind they could pair it with basekit Corrupt Intervention or a repair speed debuff while all survivors are alive in order to deal with the common Killer complaint of how fast gens can go in the first chase.
It would be possible to, if you can’t code tunneling out of the system, to just multiply MMR gains if a Survivor dies before the fifth or sixth hook. Change the MMR formula so that the Killer gets, I don’t know, quintuple the MMR gains, if a Survivor dies early so that the tunnelers can play against the comp players. It’s pretty obvious that solo queue is in an abysmal condition and the majority of the player base needs help.
Or another possibility would be just to scrap MMR and go back to Emblems. Emblems actively punished camping and tunneling and I think that’s one of the reasons why there was less camping and tunneling. The games will not be as well matched in all of the cases where there isn’t tunneling and camping but there’s enough tunneling and camping right now the games aren’t that well matched already if you’re solo queue. The data without tunneling and camping implies that Killers that aren’t camping and tunneling don’t need any nerfs; if anything they might need a small buff here and there if the goal is a 40% escape rate. It’s the tunnelers and campers that are driving the kill rates to higher than what is desired and their doing so leads to changes that negatively affect Killers that don’t tunnel or camp.
I may encounter gaslighting over this post or people attempting to distort things instead of arguing in good faith. That’s fine; I didn’t realize how much of an effect tunneling had until I did this. If you feel that tunneling and camping is not that much of a concern, doesn’t affect things that much, etc then I have to say I posted the data and provided links to videos of 175 Survivor games to illustrate my point. Feel free to do the same. It’ll take awhile but I’ll wait. If you agree with my point please feel free to mention that BHVR should aggressively tackle this issue. Instead of dealing with items such as the abandoned Last Survivor Standing to address 4K slugs which don’t happen very much I would think the priority should be to address something in a substantial fashion that has such a huge impact on the experience of a entire group of players. When there were pre 6.1 bully squads using Dead Hard to make Killers miserable I argued that no player or group of players should ever be a points pinata in a video game. The same argument holds true for Survivors as well.
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So what does this all mean?
That means a few things. This is all extrapolated from my experience but I can only speak to my experience. Just as a reminder pre 6.1 Dead Hard was rightfully nerfed from the abomination it was because it gave a 15 to 20% escape rate bonus at certain MMRs. The Killers in my data had an over 30% win rate bonus because of tunneling. Tunneling is more of a crutch and worse for the game than pre 6.1 Dead Hard was. You cannot seriously argue for tunneling to be a part of the game while you argued against abominations like pre 6.1 Dead Hard and Circle of Healing without being a hypocrite.
Second of all, the matchmaking data BHVR has is flawed and corrupted by the effectiveness of tunneling and camping. An Elo system was never designed to handle an asymmetrical situation and was designed so that symmetrical players could gain or lose based on their wins or losses on an equal playing field. The Elo system based on Kills/Escapes does not work for solo queue survivors because each individual Survivor cannot carry their entire group unless there’s hundreds to over a thousand points higher in MMR. The game needs to be designed so that Killer is stronger than any individual survivor and, ideally, as strong as 4 survivors of equal skill. If there is a tactic that is easily available to one side that increases the odds so much that disrupts the data. BHVR is measuring by kill rates and not separating anything by tunneling. This is unfair to solo queue.
Third of all, this data hammers in to a point that I didn’t realize before that there’s not really a point to playing solo queue as BHVR is making the exact same mistake VHS did with Monster. With Monster, VHS would aggregate data and was completely fine with Monsters of certain skill levels to lose miserably nearly every single game while they went on the horrendous learning curve. People stopped playing because, well, why would you play a game when the odds were so much against you? If a Killer decides to tunnel out a survivor or proxy camp they would win in over 90% of games. Why would anyone, apart from being a masochist, want to play a game for entertainment when they have less than a 10% chance of winning. That’s not human nature. To make it worse you need your teammates to improve for Elo to accurately reflect your skill as a survivor. That's not happening with solos since tunneling is disproportionately effective and reduces escape rates resulting in an MMR loss and being placed with lower MMR teammates.
Fourth, basing game decisions on games that include tunneling is unfair to Killers who don’t tunnel or camp. If tunneling provides such a huge and undeserved advantage then basing balance decisions off of kill rates means your data is either corrupt if you don’t want to encourage tunneling and camping or flawed as it’s not accurately reflecting the kill rate if you don’t’ separate games without tunneling and camping.
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So, let’s take a look at a comparison of my old games. Those videos all have non-generic titles (such as Haddie Kaur Totem Hunter, etc). Keep in mind that during this time period it was after 6.1 but with the following differences.
Hook grabs were still a thing.
There was no anti facecamp timer.
There were no status icons for survivor actions.
If I remember correctly there was no basekit BT. I might be wrong on that since I run OTR all the time.
There were no bots replacing a DCing survivor.
So, you would expect that, given the changes and that tunneling and camping was easier back then there would have been more of it and that the positive changes to survivor would improve escape rates. Let’s see what my data shows. Keep in mind though I wasn’t as thorough as I was with the previous stats as I didn’t want to compare my stats to how survivors did generally; I was just proving I did play survivor to the person who accused me of not doing so and having biased arguments. As such, I just left when I got sacrificed and didn’t bother sticking around to see how the other survivors fared.
My Previous Stats:
My escape rate was 45.3%. So, my escape rate has declined by 19.7%. That’s a pretty serious decline even though, comparing the different videos, I’ve improved as survivor. I’m not saying I’m great but I’m less mediocre than I was before.
There were 4 games out of 75 in total where I saw tunneling so that was 5.3% of my games. In other words, tunneling has increased in my games from 5.3% to 26% so almost five times as much.
There were 11 games out of 75 where I saw camping proxy or face. That’s 14.6% of games as opposed to the 37% of games so that’s slightly over 2.5 times. So that’s a lot.
So, with the data I have for the current session, I was curious what would happen if I looked at the stats for the games that had tunneling, the games with camping but hitting the unhooker and the games where there was no tunneling, camping and Killer spread hooks. It was surprising which leads me to the part I’m labelling the Ugly.
Now for the Ugly With The Current Data
In the 26 games with tunneling and camping I escaped twice. That’s an escape rate of 7.69%. Maybe it was just me though so I looked at the overall escape rate for all survivors. That was a total of 8 escapes out of a total of 104 so also 7.69%. Maybe DCs had an effect? There were 3 times Survivors gave up at the beginning so that was 11.54%. That’s higher than the 9% overall but not enough to explain that huge of a difference. So, how does the gen situation look? When there was tunneling there was a total of 2.81 over 3.56 gens done on the average so being tunneled definitely had an effect on how much survivors could actually play. As well, there was 1 Survivor win with 3E and 25 Killer Wins with 3K or 4K so that’s much more biased than the overall data.
Now I looked at the games with camping but the camper hit an unhooker. It fared a bit better for the survivors. I got an escape rate of 1 out of 11 games so 9.09%. 6 survivors escaped out of a total 44 so that was a total of 13.64%. Gens fared much better with an average of 3.55 gens done which was almost identical to the 3.56 in the overall data. There was one draw (2E) with camping and the rest were all Killer wins (3K or 4K).
Now, how did everyone fare in the games where hooks were spread, there was no tunneling or camping and the 2 bleedout at 5 gens for the 4K games were excluded.
So, out of 62 games I escaped 22 times for a rate of 35.48%. So that’s lower but within the ballpark of the 40% BHVR is going for. There were a total of 110 out of 248 possible escapes for an escape percentage of 44.35%. Hmm, that looks kind of ego deflating but hopefully part of that is my altruism. As well, that’s also within the ballpark of BHVR’s desired figure. There were a total of 3.89 gens done.
Could that be due to DCs and Survivors giving up? It turns out that out of 18 games where there DCs and survivors giving up while the game was still winnable 13 of them were done when there was no camping, no tunneling and no slugging for the 4Ks. In other words, it was more likely a Survivor gave up or DCed when the Killer was playing in an enjoyable fashion. That I didn’t expect either.
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First let’s start with the Good for the current session
I had a large amount of Killer variety. So that’s good.
There was an average of 1.54 group blood point offerings per game. Of course I was part of the 1 a lot of the time but at least that’s better BP than normal.
Only in 8% of the games did I see a Survivor DC when it was still possible to win the game. Of those games, I escaped 33% of the time so the replacement bot did something.
I only saw slugging for the 4K twice in 100 games. It really sucked but at least it was only 2% of the time.
There was an average of 3.56 gens done per game so that’s a decent amount.
Now onto the Bad
I was tunneled in 26% of my games. All of the games with tunneling had camping but there were some people who also just proxy camped. In total, in 37% of my games I saw tunneling and/or camping. That’s not a low figure.
My escape rate was an abysmal 26%. I’m pretty altruistic but as you will see from the comparison I was not expecting that low of a figure.
My fellow survivors did not do much better. Their escape rate was an abysmal 31%. So, although I’m sacrificing myself a lot to get others out nobody else I’m playing with did that well either.
There were 11 4Es versus 45 4Ks. So it’s four times as likely to get a 4K than it is to see a 4E.
Comparing win rates defined as a 3 or 4 E or K depending on your side wasn’t much better. There were 24 Survivor wins compared to 66 Killer wins and only 10 games were draws (2 on each side). So you’re still over 2.5 times more likely to win as Killer than Survivor.
Those are pretty discouraging odds.
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@Leonardo1ita said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790498#Comment_3790498
"Nobody needs to tunnel". And that's where you're wrong: with 4 survivors always going gens, eventually you will need to tunnel, unless you have Devour Hope of another super gimmicky build.
No, I'm not. Unless you're not satisfied with winning over 60% of the time there's no need to tunnel. And I'd argue that if you're dissatisfied with winning significantly more than 50% of the time in a multi player competitive game that's a you problem. Nothing Survivor has is busted anymore like it was pre 6.1.
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It doesn't do that much for the majority of survivors. Tunneling will be used by anyone who wants to tunnel regardless of the change since it provides a disproportionate advantage to the Killer. Nobody needs to tunnel; they just do it since it sways the match in their favour by a huge amount.
It won't affect camping that much since the only way that the extra 10 seconds will matter is if a) the hooked survivor is patient enough to stew on the hook without sabotaging their team by wanting to get off early and b) their team takes advantage of the time by not taking the hooked person off at the first opportunity and instead doing it when it is tactically wise to do so. Neither of that can be guaranteed outside of an understanding among SWF members.
I think it will do very little for the majority of survivors (who solo instead of SWF). It's a baby step in the right direction but it doesn't go far enough.
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He did come off like that but he's frustrated. I'm just extending the benefit of the doubt because he mentioned matchmaking as the first possibility. That's what I think is the issue here.
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@MrT1412 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790029#Comment_3790029
If he's in a 4stack then dcs aren't a concern
Directly. Indirectly it reduces the actual escape rates and throws off matchmaking for all Survivors. The games aren't counted in the stats but there's no indication it doesn't affect MMR from having the game affect the MMR of the non DCing survivor.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790029#Comment_3790029
saying skill issue isn't necessarily an insult or disregarding matchmaking flaws. yes a swf of 1k hour players won't be able to beat multiple thousand hours killers and that's a skill issue, they didn't play long enough to develop that much skill yet and it's okay.
for example i specifically pointed out that normally in an equal skilled lobby, a 4 man swf is the strongest thing there is so they can confidently put in effort to get better if not being able to beat killers is the only reason they want to quit.
Normally that would be true. The reason why I think there's more going on is because there were 18 games. After 18 games a functional MMR system would have given them some success. It didn't in this case which is why I think saying skill issue is disguising the actual issue.
With a functional MMR, even if they were total potatos, they should be matched with a similarly potatoish Killer after enough games. That didn't happen which suggests to me the actual issue is MMR is pairing them with Killers far above their skill. That's not a skill issue on their part per se; that's a MMR functionality issue.
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That part makes sense. However, there are major issues with Survivor right now. From my experience my escape rate when playing solo has gone down drastically while, even though BHVR brings in incentives with different perks to not tunnel or slug for the 4K, the incidence of such behaviours have really gone up.
I've been playing 60/40 Killer/Survivor for years so the question is what has changed so significantly. Comparing my games from years ago to now the quality of games on the survivor side has diminished significantly.
Assuming it's a skill issue would be dismissing those concerns. Asking for game play is, of course valid, but after dozens of games MMR should settle at an area where it's enjoyable. If it was enjoyable before during MMR but it's not now then something has changed. What it is I can't say but, when survivors complain about their experience, they could have some very legitimate concerns. And, after 18 games, I would understand the frustration in having a 5.5% escape rate (4 survivors escaped out a potential 72 escapes).
It could be the matchmaking system as well but there's no way a functional MMR would produce that low of a result.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790029#Comment_3790029
I mean there's no excuse for a 3k as a ghost face in an SWF on sheltered woods. A lot of those tiles are just really safe to run.
Matchmaking. A Ghostface who is much better than the survivors would still easily win.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790032#Comment_3790032
You know they won’t.
@Toystory3Monkey said:
post your games for us to judge
If they do will you admit there's an issue with Survivor right now and that the fun quality has decreased for many survivors?
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I think a lot of you are gaslighting him with "skill issue" when the actual issue is matchmaking and that actual escape rates are lower than the official stats due to not including DCs, etc.
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@Akumakaji said:
I love working with ChatGPT. One of my obsessions of late has been to create funny and interesting scenarios for my tabletop games with its help. I made a Shadowrun mini-arc that featured Carmina, so if anyone of your plays the game, please give it a try and enjoy :)
Campaign Title: Crows of Vengeance
Campaign Overview:
The runners are hired by Carmina Mora, a mysterious and enigmatic figure known in the shadows as "The Artist." She seeks their help in bringing down a powerful and corrupt official who has eluded justice for years. Carmina's motivations seem purely vengeful, but she offers the runners a series of magical paintings that can give them an edge against their targets. As the runners carry out her missions, they begin to uncover the depth of her hatred and the true nature of her powers. The campaign culminates in a tragic betrayal and a final confrontation with Carmina, who returns as a vengeful free spirit.
Act 1: The Artist's Commission
1. The Initial Meeting
- Scene: The runners are contacted by a fixer to meet with "The Artist" in a dimly lit, art-filled loft in the heart of the city. Carmina is a woman of few words, her presence commanding yet tinged with sorrow. She explains that she wants to take down a corrupt official who has caused untold suffering, and she needs the runners to do it.
- Hook: Carmina reveals that she has created magical paintings of the official and his associates. These paintings can be used to influence the targets or give the runners key advantages during their missions—such as causing the target to hesitate at a crucial moment or making them more susceptible to deception.
2. The First Run
- Objective: The runners' first mission is to take down a lower-level associate of the official—a crime boss deeply involved in human trafficking. Carmina provides a painting of the crime boss, which, when used, causes him to be wracked with guilt, making it easier for the runners to extract information from him.
- Complications: The runners discover hints that Carmina's hatred is deeply personal, but she avoids giving any details. They also notice the paintings exude a faint but ominous aura, suggesting something darker at play.
Act 2: Unveiling the Darkness
3. The Second Run
- Objective: The runners are tasked with sabotaging a lucrative deal between the corrupt official and a megacorp. Carmina’s painting of the megacorp executive creates an air of distrust, causing negotiations to fall apart.
- Twist: During the mission, the runners find evidence that Carmina’s brother was killed by the official’s orders, which fueled her desire for revenge. They also begin to sense that the paintings might be affecting them as well—small hallucinations or unsettling dreams start to plague the team.
4. The Revelation
- Scene: As the runners prepare for the final mission, they are ambushed by a hit team sent by the corrupt official, who has grown suspicious. They barely survive the attack, but when they return to Carmina’s loft, they find it ransacked. Carmina has been brutally attacked—her hands severed, her paintings destroyed, and her blood smeared across the canvases. Crows gather ominously outside the building, picking at Carmina’s discarded hands.
- Clue: The runners find a cryptic message left by Carmina, indicating that she will have her revenge one way or another. The official’s location for the final hit is revealed, but the runners are left to process the horror of what’s happened.
Act 3: The Vengeful Spirit
5. The Final Run
- Objective: The runners infiltrate the official’s stronghold, prepared to finish the job. However, Carmina's spirit now haunts the location, and the crows begin to behave strangely—gathering in great numbers and attacking anyone who comes near.
- Moral Dilemma: The runners must decide whether to kill the official themselves or leave him to Carmina’s wrath. Either choice will have consequences.
6. The Boss Battle
- Scene: Regardless of the runners’ choice, Carmina manifests as a vengeful free spirit, her inky hands dripping with dark energy, and crows swirling around her. She accuses the runners of either robbing her of her vengeance or abandoning her in her time of need.
- Battle: The fight is brutal and surreal, with Carmina using her powers to summon crows, trap the runners in inky shadows, and manipulate the environment. The runners must use their wits and skills to survive this encounter.
- Ending: If the runners defeat Carmina, her spirit dissipates, leaving behind a final, haunting painting of the scene. If the runners are defeated, they become part of Carmina's final artwork—a grim reminder of the price of vengeance.
Epilogue: The Aftermath
- Reflection: The runners are left to reflect on the choices they made and the nature of vengeance. The world moves on, but the story of Carmina Mora, The Artist, becomes a whispered legend in the shadows—her spirit lingering, waiting for the next opportunity to strike.
That's an awesome Shadowrun arc
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Doctor is annoying but that's tempered with the fact he's fun to play. I really like playing against Nurse and Artist unless they're much better at their role than I am as survivor (which, to be fair, it isn't that hard to be a better Killer than I am Survivor) but that's more match making than anything as a Killer.
It's not really any Killers that I find annoying as much as it's any Killer who tunnels or slugs for the 4K. Win or lose if it's spreading hooks in the game it's normally a fun game. Tunnelling and slugging for the 4K means the game is a slog win or lose.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789157#Comment_3789157
You have a point there, but as you said, sadly the game is far away from its ideal state. While its true that the maps have been tweaked and changed a lot (and tbh, I sometimes didn't jeep up with the changes, I know that Haddonfield is now bad for both sides, with infinite windows remaining, but he rest of the map being an open deadzone), it still is a big, valid experience point by me, that the vast majority of survivors don't play an offering for fun or variety, but to gain an advantage. Of course, in reality the split will be a bit more lenient then the 97/3 I proposed, but that's way less a hyperbole then many other hot takes you regularly see here.
I often try to break my own vicious cycles of negativity, and being kind to the other side can lead to surprisingly wholesome and sweet moments of genuine human connection, but for every such heartwarming encounter, there are probably 5+ that show you why DBD is seen as one of the more toxic communities
That's true; unfortunately there's a definite lack of empathy shown on a semi-regular basis. I wouldn't say it's the majority of players but it's definitely a sizeable enough minority it negatively impacts the game. I hope it improves but given the history of video gaming I'm not going to hold my breath waiting
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I understand how come you're frustrated but it can also feed into a cycle. As an example, now that depipping is gone (I would use maps to pip up or at least not depip at iri grades when I did my solo games) I normally only use map offerings to check something out.
The exception, however, is when I've had two or three games in a row where I had people hard tunneling. Then I play map offerings to make the game bearable.
If you tunnel someone who has played a map offering to make the game enjoyable after seeing multiple games with tunneling in a row you're reinforcing that they need to use map offerings in the first place.
It's a cycle since you could say the map offering is what made you tunnel but the map offering only got played in that scenario because the person was tunneled. Perhaps the previous tunnelers did so because they got a bully squad who ran no hook Sabo and Flip Flop, etc builds. Perhaps the bully squad did it because they got sick of being tunneled, etc etc in an ad infinitum cycle.
It's not the players in that scenario; it's the game mechanics. In an ideal version of DbD there wouldn't be a reason to pick a map other than aesthetics but the game would also ideally support spreading hooks with no incentives to tunnel either. Unless it's a group that's specifically trolling getting upset at the players may be misplacing where your frustration comes from.
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@tjt85 said:
Let's be fair here, putting a lot of hours into a single Killer is not equivalent to putting the same amount of time into playing Survivor. Simply because a Killer player only has to learn the ins and outs of a single character, whereas Survivors need to learn the counter play to all 37 Killers without any kind of practice mode to help them even get the basics of looping down.
I can honestly count the number of times I've played against a Hag or The Twins on one hand and I have 1000+ hours in the game. So that's probably less than 2 hours of experience against these Killer, versus whatever time the Killer spent learning their character (if they're a P100, that's obviously going to be a heck of a lot more). The time investment is not a fair comparison.
That is true. That's why everyone who wants to understand the game should play both roles. Doing so improves their gameplay in whichever role they prefer.
I'm not saying you haven't done that. I'm just not passing up an opportunity to mention that to the 'mains' of one side or another because it has both practical advantages to doing so (improving gameplay) and if more people did so then some of the us vs them that plagues the community might diminish. That would also be a welcome benefit.
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@MrRetsej said:
In the games where I play survivor, very, VERY rarely does a killer hard tunnel. I.e., beeline to the unhook and ignore everyone else to down and rehook the first hooked survivor.
However.
What I do see in maybe one out of ten games are survivors complaining about being tunneled, when they never where. A few days ago I encountered a player that was crying about being "tunneled all game" during the post match chat when in truth they were the second person hooked, and then two other survivors got hooked before their next hook. This same player was also doing stuff like body blocking off hook to take a BT hit, complete with those stupid 360 spins in the killer's face.
Since we're only going with anecdotal evidence and personal estimations, I'm firmly of the opinion that most people are crying about tunneling because A) they've put themselves in situations to get tunneled (body blocking off hook with BT, chasing after the killer, etc.) or B) they're just parroting their favorite streamers who, lets be honest here, generally only drum up the tunneling hate because it drives up engagement and by extension their income.So what percentage do you estimate?
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@dwight444 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3786946#Comment_3786946
sort of but I can't discredit tunneling because we managed to do all gens while survivor held his chases down and we were able to save him in the end.
I wouldn't call tunneling only tunneling if the kill is secured - I think that's being tunneled out but the killer just intentionally bolting to hook and starting chase with the unhooked is tunneling imo
there are games where we manage to run interference and buy the tunneled survivor time to lose LOS, killer just restarts his strategy on the next guy
I agree that's tunneling. If somebody tries to tunnel somebody out but it doesn't work it's still tunneling. Discounting all the times it fails and only calling it tunneling when it works is pretty disingenous and is only done to downplay how much it occurs.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785580#Comment_3785580
That's my perception. It was never in the question that it had to be a percentage. You asked how much tunnelling do I think happens; I answered not as much as people claim.
The fifth word in my question in the OP is percentage. "Out of curiosity what percentage". That's fine if you don't want to answer but I'm just asking for a rough estimate.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785210#Comment_3785210
I don't think pulling percentages out of thin air is going to help. What I do have as evidence are the number of videos online where someone will claim they were tunnelled, even though the video proves otherwise.
For me, this shows that some people often perceive things happen much more than they actually do, with that line of thought further spurred on by a negative bias: when people think they are often tunnelled, yet it's only happened a few times. Exaggerating numbers, as can happen to anyone.
It's not a slur on this type of behaviour, but it is a recognised behaviour regardless. Such is the emotional influence that affects trying to acquire statistics.
I'm not asking that though. I'm asking everyone's personal perception; nothing more, nothing less.
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@steezo_de said:
If you want fun statistics, then you can believe whatever number BHVR tells you, but it's not data based on real skill. Most people are doing challenges or dailies and/or using non-meta perks. Meaning: they're not playing for real. Now they may want to win, but they're not playing 100. Y'know? Most games should be thrown out of that data pool, but they're not. Like, all those people that consider this a casual game. Yeah, throw those games out because they're not playing for real.
I think the number BHVR is counting is a bit relaxed and isn't a true indication of how people would really play, unless there was a real reason to do it.
So, in what percentage of games would you estimate at least 3 survivors escape?
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@Batusalen said:
If you don't care about MMR at all, a win can be whatever you want, so the win rate is subjective.
If you care about that invisible number that is only useful for the backend of the game right now, survivors are not a team, and a win is only when a survivor is not killed. Ergo, if you escaped but your other 3 team mates are dead, you won and they lost.
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Skill-Based_Matchmaking_Rating#General_Ratings
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/T5QWRGN1NA77/image.png
There is an exception to this, as being in a SWF will affect the amount of MMR you gain or lose depending on whether your SWF mates also survive, but only the quantity. If you gain or lose that MMR will still be decided by you escaping or not:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HNJXEXA6N6O1/image.png
In other words: MMR wise, Escape rate = Win rate.
@HexHuntressThighs said:
I’ve had many survivors claim they won and beat me by getting hatch so I think that for most survivors as long as they escape it’s counts as a win for them.
I don’t care if a survivor gets hatch because I killed the other 3 which is a win for me and the hatch RNG favored them, there’s no skill in it. Either I stumble upon it and close it or they stumble upon it and escape.
And I couldn’t be bothered or learn the spawns as a 4k is honestly not that serious to me. But if I’m the only one who escapes I consider it a loss.
I agree a 3K is a win for the Killer. My question, though, is if a win for the survivors is defined as a 3E or 4E what percentage of the time do you think survivors win? All responses are appreciated.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785217#Comment_3785217
Not really sure about high MMR as better survivors are much less prone to tunneling anyway
Okay, so what percentage do you estimate?
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@Marc_go_solo said:
Definitely much less than what people perceive. Taking into account how often many players claim they were tunnelled, when in fact they weren't, it's very difficult to judge.
So what percentage do you think people perceive and what percentage would you guess it actually happens at? I did say guess because I'm not saying anyone knows the actual percentage overall; just an estimate.
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@KatsuhxP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/424531/how-much-tunneling-do-you-think-happens
Based on my own games maybe around 1/3 of them.
I have to say that I don't see anything wrong with playing like your definition, it doesn't mean to hardtunnel and come back to hook but just to choose and priotize the survivor closed to death. At least that's how I read it and I would say it would shock me even more if people actually just let me get away even tho I'm the best target. It would essentialy lose you the game at your own choosing.
I mean it more like hard tunneling but not just a singular focus such as 1211 instead of 111 for an example. I'm not opining or discussing any judgments on it in this thread; I'm just curious to hear about the frequency. I don't know if that clarification changes the frequency for you or not.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784087#Comment_3784087
always leave one person up as a minimum
Personally, I usually try to leave 2 up, otherwise I've found the final one may go into hiding instead of picking up his teammates. That's based on my own experiences, though. Both as killer and survivor, I usually get matches with at least one survivor who spends the majority of their time hiding.
That has happened to me. What I do then is let a survivor wiggle off, slug the one who was hiding, and let the survivors who the hiding survivor was quite willing to sacrifice decide whether or not to save them. I then let the survivors farm pallets, blinds, etc on me.
Your suggestion is better though because it'll stop the farming incidents from occurring. I'll try that now.
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I much prefer being slugged for pressure (as opposed to slugging for the 4K which sucks) than being tunneled or camped. If I'm slugged for pressure I feel like I'm actually able to play the game which makes the game satisfying win or lose.
As a Killer I do the same and always leave one person up as a minimum. It's great pressure and allows the Survivors to actually have a decent game as well.
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I agree with both implementing basekit UB as soon as no survivors are left standing (until at least one stands up) and increasing the idle crows.
If a Killer is only using slugging to increase pressure then at least one survivor will be left standing. If they're slugging because they can't live without a 4K that's their problem. Risk the Hatch; it's not a big deal.
For the idle crow animation when there are only two survivors left change the countdown from being idle to not being in a chase, not cleansing totems, not healing and not doing gens. If survivors are not actually progressing the game they should get idle crows.
If BHVR wants to do something nice for both survivors and Killers with this change it so idle counts as not doing any of the activities mentioned above so locker hopping and hoping for the Hatch is removed as a viable option. Just change the timer to generous at 4 survivors standing and much less generous at 2 survivors left.
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I don't think there will be a great issue with underage players. Or, perhaps more accurately, there won't be that much of an increase with underage players.
The rating system is ignored a lot of the time by parents to the point that, when playing Texas Chainsaw Massacre, it was uncommon but not unusual to find six to eight year olds playing a game about cannibalism, etc (and TCM, while not incredibly graphic, is a lot more graphic than DbD).
For that matter there's also Dead by Roblox so quite a few young children are already aware of DbD.
Fortunately, there is no voice chat (which, incidentally, I suspect for being the reason it appears that DbD has less underage players than it probably does). At least without voice chat it'll be harder for creepy people to talk to children and it'll be harder for children to swear at and use ethnic and homophobic slurs against other players. Besides it's not like DbD has never had that much of an issue with adults nerd raging and telling other players to unalive themselves so I don't picture that level of toxicity being that much different.
Just, whatever you do BHVR, don't add voice chat.
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They could just be farming BP. That's how I take it anyway.
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@jesterkind said:
I don't think there's a particularly huge issue with gen efficiency at the moment, no. I do think that toolboxes are unbalanced, but that is kind of its own thing, not related to gen efficiency.
You're asking for some advice in the original post, so I figure I might as well post some of my own. Generator efficiency on the survivor side is something that your minute-to-minute goal as a killer is to interrupt: Basic, bread-and-butter good killer gameplay involves spreading pressure by occupying multiple survivors at once. The most straightforward and broadly applicable example I can give is to imagine the following:
One survivor is on a hook, you're chasing another survivor, and a third survivor peels off their generator to go get the save. For the duration of this situation, you only have one survivor on generators, bringing their overall efficiency down by a whopping 75%. It doesn't last very long, but it's repeatable and effective. If you manage to get that down before someone actually gets the save, you're in an even better position.
This general concept can be expanded out in a multitude of ways. Some killers - quite a few, these days - have side objectives in their power that can occupy even that fourth survivor with good play; Pig, for example, can have everyone off gens if she's good at keeping up chase pressure, because the fourth survivor who would be on gens might be searching a box instead.
It doesn't require those side objectives, though. If you're playing a stealth killer (or you're gambling a little on a stealth build), you can force survivors to heal for fear of being oneshot out of nowhere, as another example. You can run a full-hex build to keep survivors looking for totems, though that has the risk of backfiring if they find totems before you get the ball rolling. You can combine both, if you feel nasty!
I'll break this down into a few bullet points so I'll stop being so wordy:
- Your job is to occupy multiple survivors and damage their gen efficiency
- You do this by forcing them to act on something that isn't generators- for example, saves, healing, totems, side objectives in a power, etc
- You also need to learn the win conditions and strengths of your killer, and what risks they can afford to take; Blight and Billy have the mobility to spend searching areas or crossing the map, some other killers don't
- To that end, I wouldn't recommend stacking slowdown, and would heavily recommend information. Getting into chases quicker AND knowing which gens are being worked on + what survivors are doing is crucial for playing the macro game effectively
- Chase perks that mitigate certain resources can be useful too, if your chases are too long
Killers, currently, have a HUGE toolbox to rummage around in and a lot of viable methods of getting work done. It's just a case of figuring out what works for you, what perks complement your strengths and shore up your weaknesses, and what your killer is capable of, all while remembering that generator efficiency is something you are meant to disrupt, not exclusively your perks.
This is the answer right here OP. Occupy the time of multiple survivors to slow down gens whether it be healing, being chased, unhooking, etc and that disrupts gen efficiency. As time goes on the more survivors lose their resources (eg pallets, hook states) and the more the odds shift to you.
As an example if I have one person slugged, one hooked, one unhooking and picking up the slug and the other in chase what's not being done? Generators. If I can keep on rotating between survivors what happens? I win. If I focus on chasing the strong looper at a tile of their choosing because they clicked their flashie at me or teabagged while the other three survivors are on gens and I don't stop them what happens? I lose.
Don't be afraid to drop chase and hit strong loopers instead when they're out of position and don't have a strong tile to help them. Don't let survivors pick the chases for you; pick the battleground instead.
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I want the game to be balanced around spreading hooks with game mechanics that reinforce it. So I do agree.
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I don't really see how it would work. For survivors it's more giving them a side objective and survivors have more hands to work with. Spending 60 seconds in the basement and then having to find survivors to chase off gens would result in two to three gens popping at mid MMR and above unless the Killer did something like slug three of the survivors first (in which case the survivors could reset entirely). Putting in an effect that's even comparable to the lost pressure or gens would feel too oppressive to the survivors.
For 2v8 maybe it would work. Give it a shorter activation time and give aura reading on all of the survivors for x seconds. Nobody sensible is going to assume 2v8 will be possible to balance anyway so it could be a fun thing to do there. In 1v4 matches though the Killer just doesn't have the time to do something like that since the Killer has to handle 4 people at once by themselves.
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It is possible to find survivors without aura reading. Aura reading, on the other hand, is so prevalent that it's impossible to play a stealth based build without Distortion. Distortion also helps with info and helps counter tunnelling if the Killer is using aura reading to tunnel or ping pong hook two survivors.
It's also flawed to say Distortion causes selfish game play when locker hopping exists. If somebody wants to play really selfishly they can just locker hop and avoid all aura reading and not risk the Killer seeing them.
My belief is this is coming from people who don't want counters to aura reading and don't really care about how it affects Survivors. This is borne out by every thread I've seen putting forth this argument has come from people using the Killer perspective and I haven't seen a thread yet coming from a Survivor perspective. That suggests it's a biased complaint using a disingenous argument about quality of life for Survivors when what it's really about is people upset that Distortion makes Killers actually have to look for Survivors.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3758132#Comment_3758132
Not at all lol by elimination if there are 2 very good loopers (which is common as the loopers back eachother up with flashlight) and 2 doing gens on opposite sides of the map then what I said does make sense... wouldn't make sense to go from one end of the map to the other to chase the other survivor when there is one right in front of me.... When that survivor is eliminated there is only 1 gen worker left because it's almost a certainty that the 2 loopers will continue to try bait the killer.
Sometimes it is wise gameplay to leave the ones on the gens if the intent is to get 3 gens left close to eachother (another perfectly valid tactic) has worked for me many many times. Sacrifice a couple gens to be in a better position to protect the rest
So what you're saying only makes sense if two of the survivors don't play the game as intended and nobody unhooks the one survivor you just hooked? Is that what you're saying?
I'm unsure what exactly you're trying to argue. My position is that tunnelling should be eliminated and that would reduce the intensity of the issues the survivor role faces. What exactly are you attempting to argue?
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757971#Comment_3757971
So you agree that the solution would be ignore the looper and concentrate on the weaker ones... That would be called tunneling, deliberately ignoring other survivors to take down a particular survivor. Doesn't matter what way you look at it, survivors loop killers tunnel.
Are you of the impression there are only 2 survivors in a trial? That's the only way your comment would make sense. Also, do you think it's wise gameplay to just leave survivors on gens untouched and not disrupt them?
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3757631#Comment_3757631
what do you propose a killer should do if a survivor is deliberately trying to get the killer to chase them because they are the strong looper on the team? It's a common tactic that 1 or 2 people loop the killer as long as possible while the others do gens in peace. I see 2 options, follow through and try take that person out (tunnel) or if they are just too good at looping, ignore that looper and go for the weaker members of the team. But in doing that a killer is ignoring other looping survivors to concentrate on the weaker one...(Tunnel)
I'm curious how the game was intended to be played tbh because it's generally unacceptable to tunnel which is essentially keeping chase and killing the survivor as fast as possible before gens get completed. But it's acceptable to loop around a tile endlessly and goad the killer into a chase
Or you could just not take the bait and not chase the strong looper around the strong tile. There is a meta strategy to the game as well. If you let yourself get goaded into chases that aren't wise to take and around strong tiles then that's on you.
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The 60% kill rate is what the developers intend. I think the kill rate has to favour Killers a bit because there are multiple survivors who drop out and then sometimes the remaining 3 survivors get a 3E. There are 4K games as well where, if the survivor who left had stayed, there would have been at least some escapes. If the developers didn't take that into account then it would lead to a situation where the game had better odds for the Survivors than the Killer if all players stuck around (of which sticking around is more commonly the case as MMR rises). I'm fine with that as DbD is a horror game. 60% might be a bit too much for some so maybe 55% would suit them better and get the same effect. I don't know myself and I'm fine with 60% when the game is played as intended.
Honestly though I think a lot of this would disappear if tunnelling was just properly nerfed and spreading hooks properly incentivized. I don't care about losing and a closely fought lost game, in my opinion, is far more fun than a roflstomp. What isn't fun is not being able to play the game as intended which is what happens to the survivor who is tunneled. If tunneling were removed I think a lot of the intensity of complaints about kill rates would diminish as the enjoyability of play would increase (not disappear but come on its the Internet; complaining about something will never disappear entirely on the Internet).