TheSubstitute
TheSubstitute
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I'll pop up out of nowhere after my long absence to see If this helps the discussion. I kind of went next as in I haven't played DbD for months nor purchased any of the DLCs. Killer was too easy for me even though I didn't tunnel or camp, solo survivor was too frustrating as there was almost no chance of winning once the Killer started tunnelling as the skill expression to tunnel is far less than the skill expression and coordination needed among four randoms to counter tunnelling, and the only fun I had in the last few months before I quit was memeing around with the survivors and then letting them go. That's not what I want as my main experience with a PvP game.
As such I went next as in I stopped playing DbD and played games I found more enjoyable. I only checked the forums today to see if there had been any improvements made that might entice me back but it looks like it's the same old same old that influenced my decision to leave.
Perhaps once BHVR meaningfully addresses issues such as tunnelling I might try it out again but it doesn't look like there's any point reinstalling right now. An axiom in business is that for every complaint you hear there are a few dozen unreported complaints so I'm sure I'm not the only one in this situation.
Good luck to all of you who are still attempting to improve the game and I hope you succeed.
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I didn't have a long time with it before it switched to MMR but the most notable was that it encouraged healthier gameplay. Survivor pips were based off of what you did for the team so, if you got three people out but did a lot of gens, unhooks, etc, you could still advance even though you died. On the other hand if you locker hopped for Hatch you would never pip up to a decent rank since you only survived and didn't contribute. Now, MMR marks the Survivor who locker hopped for Hatch and didn't contribute as a winner when, under Ranks, they were a loser.
If a Killer went for four hooks four Kills they would never make it to Red Ranks. Most Killers wanted to get into the Red ranks club so they would spread hooks more. The person who four hooked four killed would never pip up to a decent rank since that would be the only category and to pip up you needed multiple hooks, spreading pressure and learning more about the macro game than you need now. Now, MMR marks the 4 to 6 hooks, 4 kills Killer as a winner when, under Ranks, they were a loser.
While that wasn't the only thing that encouraged healthier gameplay from that time don't underestimate visual rewards for behaviours. Healthier gameplay was encouraged with the Rank system and, as such, there was more of it than there is under MMR.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887140#Comment_3887140
i don't think watching DbDL tournaments from time to time marks you as a comp player
They were comp players who disagreed with you; not spectators. If you're willing to disregard their comp experience so readily then why should anyone listen to your claims?
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887067#Comment_3887067
I'm not saying they're broken. YOU are.
You, and so many other forum killers have been adamant that killer is unplayable without camping tunnelling and slugging, despite more competent players than you showing that it's not just playable, but strong. That you don't -need- any of these tactics that you keep insisting on.
And what's even more insulting?
many killers in this game conceptually stand no chance against a competent SWF because they are literally forced to tunnell, slug and camp, but they are being heavily punished for it overall, especially pure M1 killers.
You even admit that you do not need this! You admit that you're doing perfectly fine without tunnelling, camping and slugging, so my question to you is:
Why even care about these announced changes?
Why is it that every time there's any kind of discussion about fixing these problems, you and people like you come in to balk and protest, when by your own admission, you don't need these strategies?
Because if that's true, these changes won't negatively impact you. That 'decent winrate' you manage without camping, tunnelling and slugging? That'll continue. That won't change. So why the constant protests?
Because to me, it sounds like you're going 'I'm doing fine, I'm doing well, but I want to reserve the right to win even more and ruin the game for others. My minor concerns are more important than the major problems that the other side has been dealing with for almost a decade now'.
skill difference, skill difference, skill difference!!!
After i've hit soft cap, my skill kept improving because i was practising the game in an environment separated from pub matches, while my opponents were stagnant in terms of skill. And by playing with no tunneling + no camping challenge, i am giving my opponents a literal headstart. Would i ever avoid doing any of that if i actually had perfect opportunity to utilize those and win the match against someone on my skill level? Absolutely no, and you are constantly avoiding the very fact that skill difference is why people who do these streaks manage to consistently win.
I've never said game is impossible with these, i was always saying there was never a proper incentive for killers to actually not slug, camp and tunnel to win, but there is plethora of counters to it people are straight up refusing to learn how to use.
So it's really time to stop trying to accuse anyone of being bad at the game because they won through tunneling, camping and slugging. You are far worse than them because you have such strong tools to make those strats close to worthless in 90% of cases, and yet you refuse to learn how to utilize them better.
And if you actually want to look at the game from the perspective you are trying to look from, but are constantly failing, you should seriously enlist for some scrims and comp DbD in general to get a huge reality check
Considering other comp players on the forums have disagreed with you and explained why you're mistaken in separate threads why would @Firellius expect that you would listen to him (or not listen in this case) anymore than what you currently don't do if he did scrims?
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@xTalon32 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886884#Comment_3886884
And it counts as "hard tunneling" in your own opinion how? I ask because it seems you're saying your own experience represents the game as a whole. Getting tunneled sucks, but its avoidable by not going for unsafe saves. I play SoloQ and only deal with tunneling when my team mates go for saves they shouldn't. Though I'm not at higher MMR, so maybe its different at higher levels.
That being said, it is a problematic strategy for the games sustainability - as well as camping which you could argue is the same thing. We honestly don't know what the changes to deal with these "strategies" will be, but things will definitely get worse before they get better. You'd have to punish tunneling/camping, then figure which killers still perform well and which do not to get a proper idea of how to balance them into the current state of the game. I'm okay with that happening but I think there needs to be more communication from BHVR about how the problem is being handled.
Full explanation and links to the 175 games that were used as a sample below. It certainly wasn't avoidable by 'not going for unsafe saves'.
I'm not saying this was your intent but players don't need people gaslighting them about the efficiency or the frequency of tunnelling. Of course people can only speak for themselves but it seems a common refrain by some posters is denying that people are speaking for themselves by listing how frequently they get tunnelled or how effective tunnelling is (while often also arguing that tunnelling is 'necessary' but also supposedly easy enough to counter that it's the Survivors' fault if four solos with no knowledge of each other's perks, limited communication, and no way to communicate strategy to each other somehow don't magically coordinate enough to counter tunnelling; Schrodinger's tunnel I guess).
Saying that it can be avoided by 'not going for unsafe saves' or happens by 'happenstance' is, regardless of the intention in doing so, falling into the forum trap of gaslighting and blaming Survivor players in order to downplay a genuinely overpowered and unhealthy strategy that Killers have. It's a common refrain in these forums to blame Survivors for problematic issues that Killer has instead of examining issues objectively.
It's ingrained enough that as soon as a Survivor issue is mentioned a knee jerk 'but the Survivors made the Killer do it' response always comes up. This can be seen in how in this thread two separate posters, regardless of their intentions, have already displayed this knee jerk response instead of just acknowledging my experience.
@TheSubstitute said:
Here are the links to the data for those that just want to see the data and watch some mediocre Survivor play over the last couple years. DbD Survivor Game Data is from the current games. DbD Stats is from games that were about two years ago I think. The descriptions of all games show which video to look at if you want to see the video.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/EQHNXT3MT5NI/dbd-survivor-game-data.xlsx
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XVWHVOGM3952/dbd-stats.xlsx
For those of you that have the patience to read my very long post here goes.
I started an experiment because I feel that there has been a substantial decline in the quality of survivor games over the last few years and the amount of tunneling and camping has gone up substantially. Fortunately, a couple of years ago when somebody said nobody was enjoying solo survivor and I said I can’t speak for anyone else but I do the forum poster accused of me lying and being a killer main (when I’ve played Killer/Survivor 60/40 roughly for years). As such, I recorded 74 games from close to two years ago and I have a basis to make this comparison.
So what I did was recorded 100 games over the last three months so I could compare and see what the changes are. I didn’t record games during 2v8 as that was too popular and would have thrown off my basis of comparison nor did I start until after the anniversary event this year. Also if there were bugs noted such as being unable to unhook or I had to leave suddenly I did not include the session. The Excel sheets showing the stats and links to the YouTube hosting my videos are in these series of posts.
First before I start I want to clarify some definitions. Also please keep in mind that I understand that my experience is my experience and other people may have different experiences. I have an understanding of statistics and sampling so I’m not going to claim anything truly foolish like a poll out by a content creator directly applies to all regions and all MMRs in a game as large as DbD. I can only speak to my experiences.
Tunneling: This is defined as attempting to remove one survivor from the game over all others first. If survivors were swarming a Killer and someone just happened to be the first one out, or if a Killer just found a particular survivor first, that’s not tunneling. If a Killer tried to remove one survivor first but the survivors countered that’s still attempting to tunnel. The Killer just failed to do it successfully. People will also try to tunnel but just realize they’re up against a strong looper and switch to take a different person out first. That’s still tunneling. The easiest way in my opinion to judge is do they return to the hook and do they target the unhooked or the unhooker. I didn’t include it if a Survivor was specifically targeted in the endgame though.
Dbd Survivor Session 1 (youtube.com)
Auspiciously or not auspiciously depending on your point of view my first game when I started was against a tunneling Clown so you can see an example of what I consider tunneling in Survivor Session One in the first game.
Camping: This is defined as staying around the hook and the returning to the hook to hit either the unhooked person (also tunneling) or the unhooker (not tunneling). If the camping was after all gens were done I did not include it.
Slugging for the 4K: This was defined as trying to slug all survivors left to either complete the 4K to minimize Hatch chances or slugging at the very beginning to just knock all survivors on the ground to either bleed them out or hook them all at the same time to minimize any chances of Hatch.
As a sidenote if you do watch my videos please note I’m not a content creator so don’t expect editing or commentary. Two of my videos have managed to reach the dizzying heights of low double digit views (but less than 20 for each) so don’t expect too much. I’m also average as a survivor. I’m not claiming anything else but as that would put me in mid MMR my experiences are more likely to be similar to the majority of the player base as opposed to a comp survivor that would be in top MMR.
For the current sessions all the videos showing this are title Survivor Session (Number) and there were 20 sessions to get 100 games.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886251#Comment_3886251
Thing about that is survivors will get themselves caught again by pure happenstance and call it tunneling.
People get themselves caught again against my ghostface all the time and start spouting off about tunneling in egc when it was really just a lack of situational awareness or pure bad luck. And you have to take whatever you can get on a killer as painfully weak as Ghostface or you'll lose.
Malicious tunnel-vision on somebody who just got unhooked - I can understand wanting to prevent that, but you can't act like getting caught again out of happenstance/bad luck is the same thing as malicious tunnel-vision. At what point does personal responsibility become a factor in the equation (because I thought this was supposed to be a game, not a ride)?
When I recorded a bunch of games and took a look at the incidence of hard tunnelling it was sitting at 26%. One in four games where it's obvious the Killer is tunnelling is not just a happenstance.
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I don't see any issues; I think it's a good idea. Killers either hook or lose out on hook perks. Survivors either pick up each other or lose out on both the time on the ground and the time on the hook.
Somebody might argue it incentivizes slugging but we don't know what the anti- slugging mechanics are that's coming so that might be a non-issue. Also, my personal opinion is that if a Killer can get a 4 person slug the Survivors either horribly misplayed something or the Killer outclassed the Survivors enough the Survivors would have lost anyway. The concern then is mitigating the four minutes of sitting on the ground waiting to bleed out so people can get back to playing the game instead of wasting their time and point one addresses that.
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@beater15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886251#Comment_3886251
Source: guy who's never played trapper, ghost or pig in top MMR. Try making an actual argument next time.
It seems you have no idea how top MMR works when there is a soft cap and are instead just throwing out random weak Killers to deflect from the point you're not at top MMR.
Let's say top MMR would be around 2100+. It doesn't matter which Killer you use; the only thing using a stronger Killer does is make getting there easier. The soft cap is reportedly at either 1400 or 1600 MMR and the number of players at that MMR would vastly outnumber the number at 2100+. That was already seen when Dowsey had 45+ minute queues when MMR was stricter as there simply weren't enough people at his level to match him with. The current matchmaking system favours speed over strict matches
The chance a 1600+ MMR player will win against a 2100+ MMR player is less than one in one hundred. There is no way someone who is that much better than their opponents can't spread hooks and still win most of the time and there is no way someone who feels so much pressure in public matches they think they have to tunnel is at top MMR.
The only thing you've proven is how wrong your argument actually is and how you are most definitely not anywhere near top MMR.
As a side note, you didn't even get Wraith's name correct when listing low powered Killers (you said ghost). That's not a mistake I would expect someone who actually does have the experience needed to be top MMR in DbD would do.
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@beater15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886033#Comment_3886033
I have no idea what you're smoking… basekit BT, OTR, sabo speed buff, 70 second hooks, anti camp timer, removed hook grabs, flashlight grace period, gen kick limit, reassurance, shoulder, hud activity, unhook iframes, uncounterable flashbangs, etc. Yeah, survivors seem to have it soo bad lol.
Meanwhile every good killer gen slowdown perk has seem some kind of nerf - pop, pain res, grim, deadlock, dms, brine, ruin, etc. I will say the game is killer sided in low/mid MMR, but when you start going against really good survivors there's literally no time to make mistakes. This is where you need to tunnel and slug, especially when not playing killers like blight/nurse. 90% of the survivor mains on this forum have no idea what it means to play killer at top mmr and it shows.
If, during public matches, you find you need to tunnel and camp to have a chance you're most assuredly not at top MMR.
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@Adam_Francis_Main said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885975#Comment_3885975
The devs refused to acknowledge this with the prior nerfs to sbtfl, regression limits etc. What you're saying is delusional thinking
It's not delusional thinking and what @Reinami said is correct. M1 Killers cannot be properly buffed while tunnelling and camping are viable gameplay strategies. When I did my experiment to note the incidence of tunnelling it also showed that Killers (overall) were somewhat underperforming for the 60% kill rate if they didn't tunnel but that was masked by how the Killers that tunnelled were massively over performing. There was a significant delta in win rates between tunnelling Killers and Killers that spread hooks. Tunnelling is an overpowered strategy.
It was the same thing with pre 6.1 Dead Hard. It was so massively overpowered that many aspects of Survivor couldn't be buffed until Dead Hard was nerfed. Now many of the Killers aren't getting buffs that would make them more fun because someone can take buffs that are designed to help the effectiveness of Killers that don't tunnel and use them to make tunnelling even more oppressive.
For specific Killers to get buffs that they need tunnelling has to go.
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Whenever I see people discussing 'rat' behaviour and how this affects survivors so much in comparison to all the other issues I get a sudden compulsion to watch this movie.
No idea why.
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Slugging the 3rd survivor so as to look for the fourth? Easily over 70 to 80 % of the time.
A full out no hooks let's slug for the 4k? Pretty rare in my games and at least half the time it was because the Survivors were out of position.
The second case isn't annoying when it's due to a Survivor misplay if the Killer just saw an opportunity and took it. In those cases, the Killer just hooks and moves on. The first case is annoying because the Killer has already won and is just wasting another player's time at this point.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875535#Comment_3875535
Survivors in DBD are powerhouses at the high end but incredibly weak at the low end. It's pretty much the opposite issue with the same problem here. Survivor is far less of a fun experience for newer players.
I honestly wouldn't mind the devs putting in some sort of crutch safeguard for the lower brackets, a weakened crutch for mid, and then have all crutches removed for the high end gameplay.
I found a lot of parallels between the Monster experience in VHS and the solo queue experience in DbD. Monster was incredibly frustrating for new Monsters as the Monster was similar to playing the Lights Out modifier in DbD but less dark and only the Monster has the disadvantages; the Teens were in regular mode. So the Monster would have to learn to track by audio which took far more time to learn sitting at a corner or ducking behind a door and zapping the Monster from behind.
It's very similar with tunnelling and camping as the skill floor to counter tunnelling and camping is far higher than the skill floor to counter it is just as the skill floor to kill Teens in VHS was far higher than the skill floor to kill Monsters. I suspect that DbD has an unrecognized problem with new player retention because of this but the issue is masked by tunnelling and camping has only reached significant proportions in recent years (my recorded games showed a roughly 5% incidence of hard tunnelling roughly two years ago versus a roughly 25% incidence now in my matches) and the percentage of hard tunnelling is still significantly less than 100%. However, Monster faced the issue 100% of the time which is why the player retention rate was in the single digits. As well, BHVR's licensed Killers help bring in new players. However, as the incidence of tunnelling continues to rise less and less new players will stay.
It is definitely possible for devs to treat a problem at the bottom without severely affecting the top. One of my suggestions for VHS was to give armed teens scratch marks. Anybody who was already winning most of their matches as Monster was tracking effectively anyway without scratch marks and the tiny polychromatic effect after a Teen was hit wasn't enough for inexperienced Monsters to not just get zapped next after hitting a Teen (a successful hit caused the Monster to look up so as to lose sight of the Teen).
For DbD, I think the best solution is to base repair speeds off of survivors left alive. Nobody is claiming a 4 person SWF that's decently experienced is having issues doing gens quickly. Similarly, nobody who's being serious is going to claim a group of 4 solos, especially if inexperienced, have a chance of getting anyone out if a survivor dies at 4 or 5 gens still up.
As such, I think a repair speed nerf at 4 Survivors still up would slow down the early game enough to allow Killers to get a foothold and spread hooks at higher levels while a repair speed buff once a Survivor dies would give Survivors at mid and lower levels a shot at getting someone out after a Survivor dies. Hopefully, it would also reduce the go next problem that DbD has since people go next since they don't perceive themselves as having a chance (regardless of whether it is possible as people react according to perceptions and perceptions don't always match reality). At the very least, knowing there is a repair speed buff could encourage people to stay.
It would probably also reduce the number of 4Ks and 4Es in favour of 2 or 3 either out or killed but I consider that a good thing. I find those type of matches more entertaining than a cycle of stomping or being stomped and think most people do as well.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875388#Comment_3875388
That is the opposite though, new players would be playing against new players, so it wouldn't be the case. VHS was horrible to play as a monster and nobody wanted to be the monster in general.
It wasn't the opposite. The reason why Teens, even new Teens, stomped new Monsters is because Monster had a higher skill floor. Once you made it past the skill floor Monster was pretty good.
One of my most significant feedback points as a beta tester was, in my opinion, although high level Monsters did well and, at the high end, the game was very well balanced it was unrealistic to expect players to get stomped repeatedly and want to play. Although I was winning most of my games after getting past the skill floor my first 40 games had a win rate of single digits and it took 100 games before I had even a 33% win rate. I pointed out that this was a game, not a professional competitive event, and that those type of odds would cause new Monster players to find another game instead, this would cause queues to lengthen, and then Teens would also start dropping out due to queue times and this would create a death spiral for the game. I even had a conversation with the lead about this but my advice was politely discounted and ignored.
History proved me 100% correct. However, the developers put a far greater emphasis on a select group of high end players and their feedback and tuned their game specifically for the top end. That's why there were no changes to low end Monster play; it was considered unnecessary as the entire focus was on the high end. For a competitive sport such as soccer that's a good strategy as the revenue comes from spectators. For any game that relies on participation such as most video games that's a death knell. As such, I pointed out that if VHS didn't make Monster entertaining enough that at least 15%, and preferably 20%, of the players queued were for Monster the game would fail.
It wasn't high end Monsters leaving; they were the only ones who stayed. There were Teens complaining about how they had no chance as the only Monsters left were the grizzled, masochistic veterans and that there were no inexperienced Monsters so inexperienced Teens started leaving as well. By that point, there was no return and it was only at that point that the developers introduced Danger Sense which did even out the skill floor. However, it was too late at that point.
But it was balancing for the top exclusively that killed VHS and ignoring that if new players don't have fun they won't stick around for the hundreds of games necessary for the average player to get on an even footing with the Teens. People won't stick around if they think it's a hopeless struggle. They'll just leave and find another game they have fun playing.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/437227/bhvr-almo-on-why-asyms-fail
When you look at every asymmetrical game that has failed there is one thing that is similar to all of them.
The game was balanced in a way where playing the "1" or the "killer" or the "monster" or whatever else, was impossible at high levels because the game was balanced for "casual" players, and since, by definition, most of the players in the game were "the survivors" or "the hunters (evolve)" and whatever else.
This leads to a cascading effect where,
- at high levels, nobody wants to play monster, so they quit or switch to the survivor side
- In order to deal with queue times, the devs expand the queue system to get matches quicker
- Lower skill monster/killer players start going against these high level teams and losing more and more
- They decide to quit
- Queue times increase for everyone
- Suddenly there are no monster players left
- Everyone quits because it takes 10+ minutes to find a match that you might play for 5 minutes.
I have been playing Asym games since Evolve, and most of them have died precisely for this reason. Playing the "monster" SHOULD make you feel powerful, but in an effort to balance for the other side (because there are more players) they make them super stressful to play where a single mistake ends the game, and nobody wants to do that.
DBD has also been like that, and i feel it still has a ways to go, because at the highest level this game is still a joke, but unlike those games you have to get pretty high up in DBD before that happens. In DBDs current state, its definitely the best it has ever been (even if there is still work to do). If DBD was like it was at launch with literal infinites, 2-3 times the number of pallets and so on? The game would be as dead as the others.
It would be really interesting to see what would happen if an Asym game came out specifically designed in such a way that the monster was probably going to win every time, and what might happen to the game then, would people not want to play the survivor role because they are going to lose? What if they made it fun to play. For example, look at Battle Royale games, the reason they succeed is because they are fun and you lose most of the time still. Because they are designed in a way where, you go in against 100 people and know you probably are going to lose, but when you win, it feels amazing because you won against all odds! What if there was an Asym game like that?
Monster in VHS was pretty good at past beginner level and quite often easy once you made it past the insane skill floor. The cascading effect of Monsters leaving was because VHS balanced around the top and didn't throw the new Monster players a bone. That's why there were so few Monsters; from balancing for the top almost exclusively.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875176#Comment_3875176
Pretty much. So much of playing Monster involved waiting on your cooldowns because you could be ambushed at any corner. You couldn't win unless you were willing to be ridiculously patient for 20+ minutes.
Exactly. I also find it quite ironic that VHS is being used as an example to defend camping and tunnelling when the issue that the skill floor to tunnel and camp is far lower than the skill floor to counter tunnelling and camping directly parallels the reason that Monster was so brutal to get into for VHS was because the skill floor for Monster was so much higher than the Teen's skill floor. It's a similar situation; just it was Monsters in VHS and it's Survivors in DbD who have to contend with the disparate skill floors.
I mean, sure, you could use tunnelling and camping to even out a skill floor but Killer in DbD already has a lower skill floor than Survivor to begin with and, if you use a widely disliked strategy to even things out (which already isn't needed here as all the OP stuff Survivor had is long gone) don't expect positive results for player retention.
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As someone who played VHS from start to finish the game would still be alive today if Danger Sense had been implemented from the beginning. Unfortunately, the fact that Monster needed help wasn't recognized by the devs and the people who were attempting to justify the issues by screaming that it's okay for one side to have a significantly lower skill floor than the other. Danger sense evened out the skill floor enough that Monsters could get started.
Having any side in a game with a wildly disparate lower skill floor, or tactics that result in the same effect, will lose players from the side with the much higher skill floor. I don't think VHS would have been wildly successful but it would have retained enough players the game would still be alive today if Danger Sense had been implemented at the end of beta.
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Honestly, I'd prefer if the person in number 2 opened their own thread. As we all know, it is possible for both an issue to exist on one side and another unrelated issue on the other side. It would be more productive if people stayed away from whataboutisms and tried to put themselves in other people's shoes instead of outright dismissing a complaint.
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@kaoraku said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866780#Comment_3866780
Meanwhile you have a point… What about the other side? I mean what about when survivors only go after repair and go out. 4 BNP, perks, and everything. They get out with 11-17k (since they get a huge bonus just getting out)
Yes, it can backfire since there would be nothing in their hand to save themself. But still, they got out, and probably the killer didn't enjoy a bit from that game.
And to be honest if it is in the game, it is allowed in the game, and it is a playstyle, why everybody reeee about tunneling. It is in the game, it is going after only one aspect of the game. It is boring, it is unfun for the other side. But meanwhile there is plenty perks, basekits and things (and even teammates) can help, on the other side not really. Yeah, there are regress perks. But since you are alone as a killer you cannot really prevent them, and you are extremly short on time.
So I really cannot see why people still can talk that much about tunneling and that it needs to go, meanwhile the same people never complain about the genrush.
And as others mentioned, something which is hardcoded and mechanicly is in the game could be weaponised against the killer. Survivors can run 4 2nd chance perk, and they can defend each other. Off the record already cam be horribly strong in that way (and survivros still can cry if the killer deicide to go after who wasted their time).
Also what is the definition of tunneling? It used to be when the killer throw the match just to kill one person. Nowdays people scream tunneling about everything, even if you dare to look in their direction. Hell I even saw people call commiting on a survivor tunneling when nobody has a single hookstage. So how can you define tunneling, and how should the game deicide it is tunnelling or not?
I find it rather ironic you're making such widespread generalizations in this thread where everything you just mentioned is touched upon and a solution is mentioned. Making widespread generalizations and dismissing the other side's concerns without even trying to understand their viewpoint doesn't make for compelling arguments.
Also, while complaints about tunnelling, slugging and gen rushing (which is no longer possible in its old definition) have the same basis (the player feels like they didn't get to play the game) they aren't 100% comparable situations because of the degree of agency the player has. While it sucks to be so badly mismatched a Survivor team can stomp the Killer (and if the Survivors are sore winners it's even worse) at no point in time does the Killer lose complete agency over their character for more than a few seconds.
If you compare that to tunnelling the Survivor has very little opportunities to play while in the game and the slugged Survivor (assuming it's a slug for the 4K -- with strategic slugging the Survivor can position themselves for the pick up, etc) has virtually nothing to do but scroll their phone, play YouTube, etc while awaiting a 4 minute bleed out.
As such, the degree of relevance is different. The Killer who is stomped by the Survivors has a very unsatisfactory game experience but the Survivors who are tunnelled and slugged for the 4K don't even get to play the game. The majority of complaints aren't for 'free escapes'; they're for an opportunity to actually play.
As well, if you're acknowledging how deeply unsatisfactory it is for Killers to get stomped and the Survivors out the gates in 4 minutes then how do you feel Survivors who lose a teammate at 4 or 5 gens up due to tunnelling or get slugged for the 4K and wait around for a 4 minute bleed out feel? If you're going to apply arguments they should be applied equally to both sides.
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@WholesomeNebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868698#Comment_3868698
Hmm maybe I should break it down to isolate more aggressive tunneling. Even if you include both hard tunnelers, and killers who barely qualify (say they hook someone twice in a row once in a match), the total rate of tunneling is actually super low. Way lower than I was expecting, especially when I see so many complaints online about tunneling being a big problem. Its just pretty rare in my experience. I don't ever run DS anymore because it was so rare to get use out of it.
Your was low? Mine was 26% of games for aggressive tunnelling. Every server is different though and probably every MMR level (of which I have no idea where I am of course).
If you want to see my spreadsheets there under my post history in my profile under the thread titled 'Decline of Survivor Games' or something like that. Or I can post a link here. They're already on the BHVR forums anyway if you're interested in looking at them.
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Is it broken down by Killer for kill rates? If so, I'm interested.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868671#Comment_3868671
I read this after my reply but somehow already answered it.
No worries, I'll tackle both here. The first is that, at least according to my definition of tunnelling, you cannot tunnel without camping. There were Killers in my data that camped but went for the unhooker so they camped but didn't tunnel. While they performed better than Killers that did neither overall the tunnellers did better than the only camped category. So, from my experience, it's the tunnelling. Tunnellers performed better than anyone else so I do believe the problem is tunnelling and not camping (or at least how I define tunnelling because my definition implies you have to camp to tunnel; if the Killer isn't camping I don't see how they could meet what I feel to be tunnelling).
I also don't think slugging would be that much of a problem. My experience has been that if a Killer can pull off a 4 person slug at 5 gens the Killer would have handily won the match anyway. Most 4 person slugs are because the Survivors swarm the Killer and that doesn't require coordination to not do or the match making crewed up; it just requires one but preferably two Survivors with enough sense to just hang back and let the Killer leave in the first case and only BHVR improving their algorithm would help in the second.
If there is an issue it'll probably be handled with whatever changes BHVR makes to slugging anyway. The slugging the second last survivor for the 4K is exceptionally unpleasant and common enough now BHVR will tackle it soon anyway.
Realistically, no solution will be 100% perfect but the reason why Killers complain about gen speeds and Survivors complain about tunnelling (and slugging as well now with its uptick) is the same underlying reason; the player doesn't feel like they got to play the game. Tying gen repair speeds to survivors left alive would be something that, in my opinion, helps with that issue for both roles.
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@WholesomeNebula said:
I also keep track of tunneling and camping. If the killer tunnels, my team including myself survive 42% of the time. That is about 13% lower than average. I include any killer who hooks someone twice in a row as a tunneller, so some are barely tunneling, some are hardcore tunnelers. In my experience those kinds of killers usually aren't very good, and they'll waste a ton of time trying to get that one survivor. I also play pretty altruistic, so I go for protection against those killers. Probably why the escape rate is so high in my matches. Killers who camp AND tunnel? They have an 87.5% kill rate in my stats, its a guaranteed loss if they proxy or face camp.
Your definition of tunnelling was hooking twice in a row? My definition was probably what you could call hardcore tunnelling as if the Killer doesn't camp they can't meet my definition of tunnelling just to put my data more in perspective.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868587#Comment_3868587
You are missing one fundamental piece of the game and that's choice of action.
You cannot remove tunneling because tunneling is a choice made by the player. The best bhvr can do is make that decision harder to make. But in doing so you give agency to the survivor to abuse the system. For example using suggestions from outside this thread.
Make the survivor invulnerable for a set time or action taken. We've seen this played out with old DS and release BT. Instead of escaping the survivor chooses to interfere and unhooks were performed unsafe outside of reason.
Make a hook state not count if too soon after being unhooked. Same issue. If there are no consequences there will be abuse.
I'd ask how bhvr can "fix" tunneling where it's fair for both sides. (I'm sure you have somewhere.)
As for four random survivors playing well together. Believe it or not there was a time when survivors could and that was without the perks or UI to help.
Sorry for the double ping; one other thing I forgot to mention is that my suggestion for fixing tunnelling was stated above. Slower gens while all Survivors are alive followed by faster gens when Survivors start to die. Reduce the snowball by allowing the Killer more time to establish a foothold and spread hooks while giving Survivors a comeback mechanic so it's not a virtually guaranteed 4K if a Survivor dies before 3 or 4 gens are done.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868587#Comment_3868587
You are missing one fundamental piece of the game and that's choice of action.
You cannot remove tunneling because tunneling is a choice made by the player. The best bhvr can do is make that decision harder to make. But in doing so you give agency to the survivor to abuse the system. For example using suggestions from outside this thread.
Make the survivor invulnerable for a set time or action taken. We've seen this played out with old DS and release BT. Instead of escaping the survivor chooses to interfere and unhooks were performed unsafe outside of reason.
Make a hook state not count if too soon after being unhooked. Same issue. If there are no consequences there will be abuse.
I'd ask how bhvr can "fix" tunneling where it's fair for both sides. (I'm sure you have somewhere.)
As for four random survivors playing well together. Believe it or not there was a time when survivors could and that was without the perks or UI to help.
I'm not suggesting items from outside the thread; I'm suggesting what I've suggested. There's no point in discussing suggestions outside the thread as they're not relevant to my point.
And solos did not at any point in time in the past communicate more effectively than now. What happened is that survivors had more tools to combat tunnelling than they do now. An FPS analogy would be if damage and rate of fire was normally on a scale of 1 to 10. If both sides have guns that rank 10 out of 10 then it's fair. The guns are really strong but it's fair. If one side has their guns nerfed to 5 out of 10 but the other side has guns that do 10 out of 10 then it's unfair. It's not a 'skill issue's for the side with the 5 out of 10 to struggle; it's a game mechanics issue.
That is what happened to Survivor. They're the allegory with the 5 out of 10 gun. Pre 6.1 DH, release CoH were all things that Survivors could use in the past to counter tunnelling. Those things no longer exist. There is nothing now that is really strong on the Survivor side. However, Killers can still tunnel.
But no, Survivors did not magically communicate better in the past. Survivors just had stronger tools to counter the really strong stuff Killer has and the Survivor toolkit has been overall nerfed far more than the Killer toolkit (of which the only really egregarious and overpowered tool left is tunnelling).
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868192#Comment_3868192
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868342#Comment_3868342
They haven't done it because it solves nothing.
Survivors only advantage is numbers because they have an action economy. Generally in a 4v1, once the killer has built pressure (hook) there will be one survivor on hook, one going for rescue/recovery, one in chase, and one on gens.
The reason tunneling is so powerful is because when one survivor is out of the game, the survivor team can only do 3 of those 4 roles... And being chased, rescue/recovery, and being on hook are mandatory. Which means no one is on gens.
Unless you take it to absolutely absurd levels of gen speed repair (like 100% extra gen repair speed is nowhere near enough) there's no overcoming that there's literally no one sitting on gens in a 3v1. The level of gen repair speed buff that would be required, especially with the current state of chase, would cause people to burn the forums to the ground. So basically that will never happen.
My opinion is that it does solve quite a few issues (with the caveat it hasn't been playtested yet). Killers quite often complain about how fast gens go. While I don't feel that is a 100% valid complaint considering how the game is designed to be Killer sided it does have some validity to it. It's based on the same reasoning as to why I oppose tunnelling; the game is moving too fast for the player to feel like they actually played
If the balance can be shifted so that there are less 4Ks and less 4Es both sides will feel they had an opportunity to play. That makes for a healthier game and community.
It would also reduce the number of 'go nexts' that occur. If a survivor dies at 4 or 5 gens left due to tunnelling then I know we're hooped. It's going to be a miserable game with very little BP. I don't DC but I understand why the people who do DC in those circumstances do. Miserable game, no BP and probably BMing from the Killer at the end? Why not play a different game instead?
While a survivor dead at 3 gens left can be super dicey a survivor dead at 1 or 2 gens left is a decent chance someone will get out and at least there'll be a decent amount of BP at the end. If that can be applied throughout the game a lot more survivors might choose to stay instead of going next (which I understand why and don't fault them for that choice but it makes the game even less enjoyable for the survivors who stay).
As well, incentives shape behaviour. While I can't do a study on it or anything like that I believe the reason why there was so much less tunnelling during Emblems is because people didn't hit Red One if they were 4K, 4 or less hooks. Pipping up quite often required 9 or more hooks at Red levels and that encouraged more hook spreading. Tunnelling has always been the most efficient way to 4K in DbD ever since the game came online. It's just so much more rampant now since all the incentives to not tunnel have been nerfed to the ground and advancement is based solely on kills. It's an invisible metric but people still chase it. Giving an incentive to spread hooks again while disincentivizing tunnelling might help spread the balance back again to less tunnelling being done.
Realistically, there will never be a 100% perfect solution. However, I feel this is worth a try as it has a solid chance in my opinion of making the game more enjoyable for everyone.
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@Slan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868189#Comment_3868189
Okay, let me change the statement because it seems it wasn't clear.
Killers have the right to try to win games. We all have the right to win, survivors and killers, and we all have the right to resort to any legal mean to achieve it (hacking and cheation are out of the question)
I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing tunnelling is unhealthy for the game but, in the end, BHVR has to enforce the mechanics. That's mainly on other threads though; I started this thread to help gain clarity as to why people who do feel you can have a good win rate in public matches without tunnelling defend tunnelling. I totally understand why somebody who feels it's a necessary game mechanic defends it. I disagree but their viewpoint is very understandable. It was the viewpoint of defending tunnelling when somebody doesn't feel it's necessary I don't and I asked the question to gain more clarity. If somebody doesn't understand the viewpoint of the other person it's impossible to have a constructive discussion. It might still be impossible after understanding their viewpoint as what people value can be very different (eg someone with lots of empathy is never going to convince someone with little to no empathy using 'these are the negative consequences to other people' reasoning) but you'll never find out if it's possible if you don't ask.
As a side note, I've argued multiple times for stronger gen defense tied to number of survivors left alive (,eg Ruin and Pain Res back to 200% and 25% per hook respectively while all survivors alive but deactivating on a survivor dying, slower gen speeds while all survivors up, faster gen speeds when a survivor dies, etc) as the game is more fun for both Killers and Survivors overall when it's based on hooks and not kills.
The above paragraph also responds to your post @StalkingYou I understand where you're coming from which is why I've advocated for stronger gen defense at the beginning and stronger gen repair at the end to reduce snowballs and give both sides more chances to actually play the game.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867718#Comment_3867718
You are arguing that a killer must ignore an easy target because the survivor may feel bad. It's like me saying survivors must stop repairing gens if they power 3 before the killer gets a hook. Cycling through survivors making sure to evenly hook everyone is asking to play at your own detriment just so no ones feeling are hurt.
Do you expect players to get better being treated with kid gloves?
Here, I'll help you. Killers shouldn't tunnel because it will boost their MMR higher than it should be. At some point they will begin to face survivors who can punish the tactic. They will start to lose and feel the game is unbalanced.
There are many ways to deal with killers that tunnel. Because survivors don't use them doesn't make it the killer's fault. You can't expect for an online PvP for one side to go easy. We wouldn't expect it from any other game.
I'm not arguing the Killer has to ignore the target; I'm arguing it's better for BHVR and DbD if tunnelling is removed and BHVR should change it. You're reading too much into my posts if you feel I'm putting the onus on the players. If you're unfamiliar with my arguments I've made (which is of course reasonable as nobody is going to keep up with the nuances of every person's position on a forum) I've stated multiple times (many for years)
(1) DbD should be balanced off of hooks
(2) The best way to achieve that is increased gen defense or slowdown while all survivors are alive and gens speeding up as each survivor dies
(3) Tunnelling is a crutch that lets Killers get to a higher MMR level than they should and that's harmful in the long term to Killers
(4) Tunnelling also increases win rates so much it hurts Killers who don't tunnel as BHVR looks at win rates in the aggregate and Killers may be underperforming when they don't tunnel but tunnelling disguises this. This prevents Killers who may need it from getting buffs.
(5) Tunnelling prevents Survivors from playing the game. It is completely reasonable to want to play the game and both sides need to have fun
(6) Ultimately, BHVR has to make the changes as you cannot rely on an Internet community to self police.
Your statement, though, about how we wouldn't expect that in any other game is flawed. There is a social contract even though it's easier for online players to ignore it. Gankers and twinks in PvP in MMORPGS are looked down upon just as hard tunnellers are in DbD. If DbD were a face to face recreational activity all the people who argue 'why should I care about the other side's fun' would be sitting around alone with nobody to play with. The only reason that doesn't occur online is that the Internet removes the social consequences of such an attitude. However, people who use unfair advantages are looked down upon.
Also, the forums are rife with gaslighting about what Survivors should or shouldn't do. Attempting to say a group of four people who have never met each other, never practiced together, don't know each other's perks and can't communicate can overcome tunnelling is ludicrous. It is not possible for that to consistently occur. That's also an issue as game mechanics never should give such an advantage to one side.
You're arguing from a 'me at this point in time' perspective while I'm arguing from 'better for the game and players overall' perspective. If you want to say it's better for you personally to tunnel of course it is. However, it's not better for the game overall nor for the community and, unfortunately, the social consequences that discourage such behaviour in real life are removed in the game setting. However, you were the one who falsely stated that the arguments against tunnelling were all emotional when there are many logical arguments against tunnelling; they just require being able to look beyond 'me at this moment in time' to acknowledge them.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
You can't end tunneling without getting rid of the basic incentive structure of: 4 survivors are more efficient on gens than 3. That is just how it is and any attempt at simply nerfing tunneling is a direct nerf to killer since it is a required strategy.
Gen speed has to be reformulated so that when 4 survivors are alive, the gen speed is much slower than it is now, but when one dies, it increases to a bigger speed compared to today, and progress it further for 2 man and 1 man left. Only then tunneling can become an obsolete strategy. Other than that, it is simply trying to dry an ocean.
Yes, please. I wish BHVR would tie gen speed repair to number of Survivors alive. It would be better for everyone.
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@Slan said:
Tunelling can be necessary at certain times. Killers have the right to win as well, and sometimes this is the only option they have. I do not defend tunelling on 5 gens, but wouldn't mind it if it were in a situation with 3 gens left and 4 survivors still alive, because sometimes one dead survivor gives you the fair amount of pressure you just need.
The flaw I find with your argument is, yes, Killers have a right to win games but they don't have a right to win every game.
It's okay to lose games. If you're losing an outrageous amount then that's not fun for anyone. However, what your statement implies comes across more of a Killers should win every game and Survivors should lose an outrageous amount of games. I have no idea if that was your intention or not but that's how it comes across to me.
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My last spreadsheet comparison was, off the top of my head:
If Killer tunnelled: 7.69% for both myself and all survivors overall
If Killer didn't tunnel: 37% for me; 46% for all survivors overall
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867613#Comment_3867613
- Is an emotional argument. You are using shame to stop someone from tunneling.
- It can be argued that many factors lead to that 60% number. One being the high rate in which survivors give up over the smallest inconvenience. Leaving teammates with the aftermath.
- Emotional argument. Sure, games are played for entertainment. But how someone enjoys the game is subjective. A 10% win rate. For every win streak there's a lose streak to balance the numbers. Note every killer wins 60% of their matches. It's an average where the center of the bell curve is 60%.
- Do you know what game you are playing? The very existance of DBD being around this long is the counter to this argument. You think any of this is new? It's the same regurgitated complaints year after year. Even when bhvr tries and does something, it's never enough, doesn't go far enough, and is now worst than it ever has been.
- There's no slider for balance. A 4v1 is inherently nearly impossible to perfectly balance. Tweaks to one killer only affects that killer. Tweaks to survivors affect every killer. What is too strong or weak varies by player region, time of day, and skill level of the players.
If you may, give a logical argument why someone shouldn't tunnel someone out in a match from a killer's point of view. Provide an alternative strategy that provides better results in a match.
Those aren't emotional arguments unless you're incapable of seeing a point of view outside of me at this moment in time. As an example, I said Tunnelling is as much of a crutch as pre 6.1 DH. Pre 6.1 DH gave a statistically significant advantage that no other perk can achieve. Tunnelling gives a statistically significant advantage that no other strategy or perk can achieve. Pre 6.1 DH was used the higher up the MMR curve just as tunnelling is used. Pre 6.1 DH was extraordinarily difficult for a new Killer to overcome. Tunnelling is extraordinarily difficult for new Survivors to overcome. Because of pre 6.1 DH Survivors could hit MMR levels that they couldn't without. Because of tunnelling Killers can hit MMR levels they couldn't without.
Those are facts. If you're saying repeating facts is an "emotional" argument than perhaps the one who is emotionally reacting is you.
Your comment about number two is non-sensical considering what I said. Tunnelling, in the experiment I did with solo queue with 175 games at time intervals that were a year apart, gave less than a 10% win rate (for survivors, over 90% win rate for Killers) when applied against solo queue. The 60% kill rate mention you made makes me doubt you even considered your argument and just went straight to a stock answer. From the data I examined the win rate without tunnelling was actually a bit behind what BHVR wants. The win rate with tunnelling was over 90% and tunnelling made it look like Killers were over performing if amassed together. That wasn't true; tunnelling was making Killers look as if they perform better than they actually do.
The third argument is as non-sensical as your second as you didn't actually address my point but deflected with an irrelevant point (the 60% kill rate). I'm not discussing that; I'm discussing how tunnelling substantially increases the win rate by statistically significant levels.
Your fourth argument is an emotional response to a business fact. If businesses cannot keep their customers happy they will suffer and may cease to function. Your argument is essentially the same as the people who say 'look, it snowed today in this one area and therefore climate change doesn't exist' except applied to business. That DbD has customers now doesn't preclude that customers also left due to being unhappy nor does it preclude that the best move BHVR could make is keeping all of its players happy for as long as possible.
Your fifth argument could have been used to argue against nerfing pre 6.1 DH. There is nothing you stated that wouldn't have supported keeping pre 6.1 DH.
If you wish to say one side is being emotional and the other logical than you probably shouldn't use double standards. As it is, your arguments sound like the Killer equivalent of the 'just bait it out' arguments that were used to argue against nerfing pre 6.1 DH.
As a side note, if you're unfamiliar with the data set I'm referring to here's a link
@TheSubstitute said:
Here are the links to the data for those that just want to see the data and watch some mediocre Survivor play over the last couple years. DbD Survivor Game Data is from the current games. DbD Stats is from games that were about two years ago I think. The descriptions of all games show which video to look at if you want to see the video.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/EQHNXT3MT5NI/dbd-survivor-game-data.xlsx
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XVWHVOGM3952/dbd-stats.xlsx
For those of you that have the patience to read my very long post here goes.
I started an experiment because I feel that there has been a substantial decline in the quality of survivor games over the last few years and the amount of tunneling and camping has gone up substantially. Fortunately, a couple of years ago when somebody said nobody was enjoying solo survivor and I said I can’t speak for anyone else but I do the forum poster accused of me lying and being a killer main (when I’ve played Killer/Survivor 60/40 roughly for years). As such, I recorded 74 games from close to two years ago and I have a basis to make this comparison.
So what I did was recorded 100 games over the last three months so I could compare and see what the changes are. I didn’t record games during 2v8 as that was too popular and would have thrown off my basis of comparison nor did I start until after the anniversary event this year. Also if there were bugs noted such as being unable to unhook or I had to leave suddenly I did not include the session. The Excel sheets showing the stats and links to the YouTube hosting my videos are in these series of posts.
First before I start I want to clarify some definitions. Also please keep in mind that I understand that my experience is my experience and other people may have different experiences. I have an understanding of statistics and sampling so I’m not going to claim anything truly foolish like a poll out by a content creator directly applies to all regions and all MMRs in a game as large as DbD. I can only speak to my experiences.
Tunneling: This is defined as attempting to remove one survivor from the game over all others first. If survivors were swarming a Killer and someone just happened to be the first one out, or if a Killer just found a particular survivor first, that’s not tunneling. If a Killer tried to remove one survivor first but the survivors countered that’s still attempting to tunnel. The Killer just failed to do it successfully. People will also try to tunnel but just realize they’re up against a strong looper and switch to take a different person out first. That’s still tunneling. The easiest way in my opinion to judge is do they return to the hook and do they target the unhooked or the unhooker. I didn’t include it if a Survivor was specifically targeted in the endgame though.
Dbd Survivor Session 1 (youtube.com)
Auspiciously or not auspiciously depending on your point of view my first game when I started was against a tunneling Clown so you can see an example of what I consider tunneling in Survivor Session One in the first game.
Camping: This is defined as staying around the hook and the returning to the hook to hit either the unhooked person (also tunneling) or the unhooker (not tunneling). If the camping was after all gens were done I did not include it.
Slugging for the 4K: This was defined as trying to slug all survivors left to either complete the 4K to minimize Hatch chances or slugging at the very beginning to just knock all survivors on the ground to either bleed them out or hook them all at the same time to minimize any chances of Hatch.
As a sidenote if you do watch my videos please note I’m not a content creator so don’t expect editing or commentary. Two of my videos have managed to reach the dizzying heights of low double digit views (but less than 20 for each) so don’t expect too much. I’m also average as a survivor. I’m not claiming anything else but as that would put me in mid MMR my experiences are more likely to be similar to the majority of the player base as opposed to a comp survivor that would be in top MMR.
For the current sessions all the videos showing this are title Survivor Session (Number) and there were 20 sessions to get 100 games.
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@Mr_K said:
It's the difference between an emotional and logical arguments.
Most that talk against tunneling make emotional arguments. It's not fun to go against.
Most that say tunneling is needed are making logical arguments. A 3v1 is easier than a 4v1.
If you want someone to stop tunneling then make a logical argument against it.
That you're not acknowledging the logical arguments against tunnelling doesn't mean they don't exist. As a quick, non-inclusive summary
- Tunnelling provides as much as a crutch that pre 6.1 DH does. If the win rate by using a tactic that only one side has access to increases win rates by a significant amount (my sample gave close to double the win rate by tunnelling versus not tunnelling) then that constitutes an imbalance in game design.
- If the win rate by one group (solo survivors in the matches I recorded and posted) drops to less than 10% by using a tactic that one side can access and the other cannot that constitutes an unfair advantage.
- DbD is a video game that is played for entertainment. Anyone taking it more seriously than that has issues with perspective (with the caveat that streamers, etc whose income is derived from DbD have a much greater stake). Nobody can reasonably say that expecting one side to have less than a 10% win rate is an enjoyable experience.
- A videogame that does not provide an enjoyable experience will eventually suffer and may cease to function (eg the Teens in VHS killed VHS by blocking any improvements to the miserable Monster experience. I see a lot of parallels to how the Teens in VHS acted to how some of the Killers in DbD are).
- The same criteria should apply to all roles by the developers. If something is nerfed because it gives a statistically significant win rate increase that is unfair to the other side (ie pre 6.1 DH) then the same should apply to both sides (tunnelling in this case).
If you're fine with tunnelling but don't believe it's an essential game mechanic or to you essential implies a greater than 60% kill rate you're acting the same as and just as logical as the people who said 'just bait it out' with pre 6.1 DH.
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@Xernoton said:
It's more that tunneling, as much as we don't like to hear that, is a legitimate play style, that in some situations is necessary or logical (survivor with BT bodyblocking for the unhooker) and people don't want survivors to be protected when they play reckless.
To anyone who has played this game long enough to remember when BT was only a perk, how did survivors usually go about unhooking back then and how has that changed? In my experience survivors used to be a lot more careful with unhooks and tried to do it whenever the killer wasn't around. Now I see so many people rushing the hook the instant the killer begins the hooking animation. It's not smart. Not at all. But it seems that survivors overall have become more reckless because of base kit BT. That feels extremely stupid when you play killer and it can end up costing you the match when your teammates do that when you play survivor as well.
DS used to be something similar. Many would use it to basically become meat shields for their team mates and while we will never agree on whether this is smart or not (that discussion has been had a million times already), it is undoubtedly not the way the devs intended this version (or the prior version) of DS to be used.
This is really my grime with anti tunneling measures. I think it is fair, that tunneling exists as a niche play style that can work when survivors play careless and it could be more situational than it is now (way more). However, I do not like the idea of granting survivors more protection, if it ends up being misused and affects killers that aren't tunneling.
The issue I have with saying tunnelling is a legitimate play style is that, when I did my comparison on how much tunnelling has increased between a series of solo queue games over different years, is that tunnelling gave a 90% win rate against solo queue. While of course DbD is more problematic to balance because of it's asymmetrical nature you can't ask people to log into a game and have a single digit chance to win. At that point they're essentially points piñatas for the other players. If this were an FPS and you logged in but your opponents had guns that did 10 times as much damage as yours would you consider that a legitimate situation?
It's a play style that, in my opinion, is just as bad as the old DH for distance. This was changed as it gave an unfair advantage to the survivors employing it. I'm not begrudging anyone who used it as it was the developers' fault for allowing it and I'm quite happy it was changed as it made playing Killer miserable.
However, the same is now happening with tunnelling as the incidence of tunnelling has increased significantly (an over five fold increase over the time period for my personal experience). I don't consider tunnelling anymore legitimate than the old pre 6.1 DH for distance myself.
What I would personally like to see, as I've said ad nauseum on these forums, is gen repair speed being tied to the number of survivors alive so the survivors are weaker in the early game so the Killer has a chance to establish a foothold (by nerfing gen repair speed if all survivors are alive) and the Killer has less of a chance to snowball for the 4K once a survivor goes down (by buffing gen repair speed as each survivor dies). I think that would actually benefit non tunnelling Killers overall as the chance of a 4K decreases but the chance of significantly stomped for a 4E decreases substantially as well.
I don't know if that'll ever happen as BHVR is good at pulling in new players with the licenses which helps mask the number of players who quit but I don't know how their long term retention numbers are. My opinion is that playing solo queue is more miserable right now than when I was playing Clown when Mikaela was released. The main reason for that has been the significant increase in tunnelling Killers.
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@danielmaster87 said:
As annoying as it is to say this: the question isn't specific enough. I think at high or even mid MMR you have to tunnel, just because of how fast they do the gens vs your time to kill. And MMR being hidden means everyone thinks they're on top. That's why it's hard to answer.
I think I hover at pretty high MMR. For me, tunneling or hook juggling only 2 people is necessary, except in the small window of time I get put with consistently mid survivors. I've even started using coins to count hooks, because I don't want to forget, since the game hides individual hooks from you on purpose, and then I lose the match from accidentally playing nice. If you play Nurse or Blight, you probably don't need to tunnel. But against the very top survivors, all killers will need to tunnel.
It's not annoying; I'm just asking for opinions and perspectives and you answered the question quite clearly. Thanks for taking the time to answer.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864836#Comment_3864836
Some SWFs are weaponizing shoulder the burden. They'll have 1 survivor with chase perks and anti-tunnel perks, and that person will repeatedly be baiting the killer, or standing nearby with a flashlight/flashbang/toolbox if the killer tries to chase someone else, or aggressively bodyblocking if the killer tries to chase someone else.
These SWFs absolutely want the killer to tunnel the 1 survivor with all chase/anti-tunnel perks, and are actively trying to make that happen.
If you focus the survivor with all chase/anti tunnel perks in your scenario you've been outplayed on the meta level and the subsequent loss is very much deserved. Just chase someone else.
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@TheSubstitute said:
Here are the links to the data for those that just want to see the data and watch some mediocre Survivor play over the last couple years. DbD Survivor Game Data is from the current games. DbD Stats is from games that were about two years ago I think. The descriptions of all games show which video to look at if you want to see the video.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/EQHNXT3MT5NI/dbd-survivor-game-data.xlsx
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XVWHVOGM3952/dbd-stats.xlsx
For those of you that have the patience to read my very long post here goes.
I started an experiment because I feel that there has been a substantial decline in the quality of survivor games over the last few years and the amount of tunneling and camping has gone up substantially. Fortunately, a couple of years ago when somebody said nobody was enjoying solo survivor and I said I can’t speak for anyone else but I do the forum poster accused of me lying and being a killer main (when I’ve played Killer/Survivor 60/40 roughly for years). As such, I recorded 74 games from close to two years ago and I have a basis to make this comparison.
So what I did was recorded 100 games over the last three months so I could compare and see what the changes are. I didn’t record games during 2v8 as that was too popular and would have thrown off my basis of comparison nor did I start until after the anniversary event this year. Also if there were bugs noted such as being unable to unhook or I had to leave suddenly I did not include the session. The Excel sheets showing the stats and links to the YouTube hosting my videos are in these series of posts.
First before I start I want to clarify some definitions. Also please keep in mind that I understand that my experience is my experience and other people may have different experiences. I have an understanding of statistics and sampling so I’m not going to claim anything truly foolish like a poll out by a content creator directly applies to all regions and all MMRs in a game as large as DbD. I can only speak to my experiences.
Tunneling: This is defined as attempting to remove one survivor from the game over all others first. If survivors were swarming a Killer and someone just happened to be the first one out, or if a Killer just found a particular survivor first, that’s not tunneling. If a Killer tried to remove one survivor first but the survivors countered that’s still attempting to tunnel. The Killer just failed to do it successfully. People will also try to tunnel but just realize they’re up against a strong looper and switch to take a different person out first. That’s still tunneling. The easiest way in my opinion to judge is do they return to the hook and do they target the unhooked or the unhooker. I didn’t include it if a Survivor was specifically targeted in the endgame though.
Dbd Survivor Session 1 (youtube.com)
Auspiciously or not auspiciously depending on your point of view my first game when I started was against a tunneling Clown so you can see an example of what I consider tunneling in Survivor Session One in the first game.
Camping: This is defined as staying around the hook and the returning to the hook to hit either the unhooked person (also tunneling) or the unhooker (not tunneling). If the camping was after all gens were done I did not include it.
Slugging for the 4K: This was defined as trying to slug all survivors left to either complete the 4K to minimize Hatch chances or slugging at the very beginning to just knock all survivors on the ground to either bleed them out or hook them all at the same time to minimize any chances of Hatch.
As a sidenote if you do watch my videos please note I’m not a content creator so don’t expect editing or commentary. Two of my videos have managed to reach the dizzying heights of low double digit views (but less than 20 for each) so don’t expect too much. I’m also average as a survivor. I’m not claiming anything else but as that would put me in mid MMR my experiences are more likely to be similar to the majority of the player base as opposed to a comp survivor that would be in top MMR.
For the current sessions all the videos showing this are title Survivor Session (Number) and there were 20 sessions to get 100 games.
It's a real issue in this event.
That's the link I posted in September 2024 showing that the amount of hard tunnelling I see in games increased by 5% to 26%. It has links to 175 games over the two time periods I took snapshots of it. So that corresponds to how you feel it was less than 1 in 10 games before but for some people, at least for me, it has definitely risen substantially and I would add definitely during this event.
While I don't have any games or solid data for the event as I haven't recorded anything I feel that hard tunnelling has been more common during the event than the time period I took these videos for. However, that's my feeling and I don't have any solid numbers. I can emphatically say it's been at least around the same ballpark as 26% and I think higher with the addition that some of the Killers are also humping the last survivor downed.
After doing the tome challenges I haven't even bothered queuing as Survivor for the event queue as it's not worth it. I sometimes queue in the event queue as Killer but I generally use Killers I only meme around with so the other players can have a break from how horrible so many people are during the event.
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It's a terrible perk for all but a strongly coordinated 4 person SWF.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863575#Comment_3863575
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DNBT162SRTZQ/obraz-2024-12-30-190833037.png
did you ever played killer? XD doesn't seem like it
If you don't understand how movement speed matters with a mechanic where your chance of success is greater the more ground you cover it's kind of pointless to continue a discussion.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863513#Comment_3863513
xD so why do you think unbreakable exist?? because what i see for you it's useless
there is mechanic and there is counter to that mechanic. that's how the game is. you have pallets and windows to escape killer, killer have perks to automatically destroy pallet after being stunned and perk to block windows after using them.. killer can put you down and slug, you can get up without help and more, you can blind killer so killer can use perk to block blindness. but you can stun killer and killer CAN'T counter it, can't block it.
the only person in game that can respect or not respect pallet is survivor. pallets are yours, not killer's… oh and i can say the same to you.. just EAT that slug lol or just die with some honor instead of whining on forum how bad slugging is lol.. just take the L and go next game. this kind of logic can be always used against you beacuse it's dumb logic. take the L and play another game.So there's no issue with hiding for the Hatch with two survivors then since Killers have Spies in the Shadows and multiple aura reading perks and add-ons?
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863517#Comment_3863517
no.. movement speed doesn't matter, you still can't predict where hatch appears. it can spawn righ behind you or next to killer's location so how movement speed matter?
ok nvm …. here's situation. you hide in a locker, on the other side of map i hook 3rd guy, he dies instantly because it was his 3rd hook. but you can get out of locker the moment you saw i picked 3rd guy so you have advantage already because you can start moving away from me or towards me, but i can't because i have to hook that guy so you won't cry about slugging… you have few seconds to start looking for hatch or just change place but i can start moving only when 3rd is hooked. ofc you won't find hatch before 3rd guy dies but it doesn't matter because you can already start moving because you know where i am and i don't know where are you or even if i knew you have time to move away from that place.You don't understand how movement speed for a mechanic where you're more likely to be successful the more ground you cover is important?
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863419#Comment_3863419
but you understand that hatch spawn is random so it doesn't favour anyone unless offering is used? killer closes hatch because 4th surv didn't even try to move until hatch was already open, it's choice to not look for hatch and stay in locker… in every other case it's killer's luck if they close before you
That would only be an accurate statement if Killers and Survivors moved at the same rate and had the same conditions. Every player, regardless of role, can learn the spawn locations. However, the Killer player moves faster and doesn't have to avoid being spotted. That allows the Killer player to check out the most likely spawn locations faster and more efficiently than the Survivor player and to cover more ground. The Survivor not only moves slower but has to frequently stop in order to not be seen by the Killer. As the Killer can check more spawn points and search the map faster than the Survivor it favours the Killer role.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863398#Comment_3863398
slugging for 4k is strategy too you know? and you can use bill's perk to get up when killer is looking for 4th guy..it's only your choice to not use it.
maybe we should talk about how killers CAN'T counter any kind of stun? oh wait, thats in survivors favour so noone talk about it… people here only whine if something is not in survivor favour even tho they can counter it FOR FREE without using real money.That's not accurate. If you would like to say UB is an acceptable counter to slugging the second last survivor for the 4K then it's just as acceptable to say that the existence of Spies in the Shadows and the plethora of aura reading perks justifies two survivors hiding out for Hatch. The Killer role overall has more tools to deal with two Survivors hiding than Survivors have to deal with slugging for the 4K. In reality, neither slugging for the 4K or hiding out for Hatch are acceptable as both are based around circumventing normal game mechanics. The Killer should just hook the third survivor and move on just as in the case of the two hiding Survivors they should try to complete the gens.
In regards to stunning the Killer could respect the pallet. That might not be the best move as it can save time in many situations to just eat the stun so you can destroy the pallet and whittle down the survivors' resources and set up for the 4K.
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@Prometheuskoa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863419#Comment_3863419
I didn't say hatch doesn't favour the killer I'm saying hatch doesn't always favour the killer. Which in certain circumstances it's doesn't. Also as previously mentioned, closing the hatch sets egc, so less chance of getting the mori. Hence why slugging is the best way to achieve the mori.
Your overall BP being more if went to next match faster is assuming the killer doesn't get steamrolled by the next team. It's a big chance to take when the killer can bag extra BP there and then while they have the opportunity. Slug for 4k and gives killer time to smash left over pallets/doors, possibly close the hatch gives a fair amount of BP. Why pass that up, then go next match and v a team of skilled survivors thats incredibly stressful and difficult to hook? More incentive to take the opportunity to gain the BP where they are available.
It may be a waste of time for the survivor but fact is the game gives incentive to do so. The whole situation needs a rework, a system that would reduce slugging for 4k, reduce infinite hiding for the hatch, reduce time being wasted on both sides. Until such system is in place there is incentive to waste killers time as there is to waste survivors time.
What you're doing with your arguments is you're saying 'hey, in this particular niche situation it might be better to slug for the 4K'. In other words, you're using outliers in order to make a general statement. It's more accurate to look at the actual conditions and determine what would be done from that.
It's also ignoring the lack of sportsmanship aspect of the slugging for the 4K which, if you don't care about showing sportsmanship, you can ignore all you like. However, that's not how all people think.
The hiding infinitely is just as bad as slugging for the 4K although it occurs significantly less. However, it would be easier to solve. All BHVR has to do is make AFK crows appear if someone hasn't touched a gen for more than a few seconds, healed another survivor, or been in chase for X minutes (with X being whatever amount BHVR feels is appropriate).
It's not the same priority, however, although it is just as frustrating and terrible to do as slugging for the 4K as it occurs significantly less. Attempting to argue it is on the same level of a problem as the slugging for the 4K would be akin to saying that a house that is fully ablaze is on the same level as a fire in a garbage can. Both need to be dealt with but one is significantly more serious. Slugging for the 4K has pretty much become the norm in matches for Killers while two survivors hiding out for Hatch is still a rare occurrence.
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@Prometheuskoa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863398#Comment_3863398
I would say hatch search doesn't always favour killers, many survivors know the common spawn points for the hatch and last survivor will head to them when the killer is chasing the 3rd survivor so the last survivor is prepared. This has happened many times and has lead to even slugs crawling out the hatch because they know the most likely places it will spawn and they crawl to the location in the hope hatch spawns there. (Survivor already being at a possible spawn location is not in favour of the killer). In short, 1 survivor can place themselves in the correct position and wait for the hatch while the killer can't do that because they are chasing the 3rd.
I would also say the finisher Mori does give incentive to slug, yes killer could find hatch and close it before the survivor escapes but that brings egc and doesn't give the killer the finisher mori. So it gives incentive to slug both survivors, hook 1 then wait to Mori the last slug.
Evidence shows
1. Best way to get mori, slug.
2. Best way to find hatch before survivor, slug.
3. BP bonus for 4k compared to 3k significant enough to warrant the 4k... Best way to achieve that, slug.
4. Certain achievements/adapts, best way to achieve, slug.
All of which are in someway or another linked to slugging for the 4k.
That's denying reality to say that Hatch doesn't favour Killer. The reality is the majority of time the Killer closes the Hatch.
As well, looking at BP earned over multiple matches shows there is overall more BP earned simply by going to a new match as opposed to a small amount in one category you get more BP due to events triggering in all 4 categories. The math simply doesn't support any of your statements. The only statement with any validity to it is that for adepts slugging the second last survivor to search for the last gives a greater chance of getting the achievement. That still ignores, however, that you're still wasting another person's time and anyone with decent sportsmanship wouldn't do it.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863372#Comment_3863372
Slugging is also an intended mechanic. That's why it's in the game.
Slugging for the 4k is also heavily incentivized. Especially by certain tome challenges. Making it intended.
Just because survivors don't like it, it doesn't mean it's not intended.
Slugging strategically is an intended mechanic. Slugging for the 4K is not heavily incentivized. You can make the argument that it helps with pips if it's the second last survivor but, BP wise, playtime wise and most likely pip wise as well over the long term, hooking the second last survivor and moving on to the next Hatch is the best move with the short queue times. This is especially true as the Hatch search favours the Killer over the Survivor as the Killer covers ground more quickly and doesn't have to stop to hide.
None of the tome challenges mention slugging specifically. The only 4K challenge that I can recall off the top of my head that sets a specific sacrifice condition (aside from with these perks) is the Trapper basement challenge which was an early tome and never repeated (implying BHVR learned from this). The sacrifice for the 4K implies hooks as that is how the game is designed.
The Last Survivor Standing playtest where UB was basekit also shows BHVR has been thinking about how to correct this for years.
Slugging for the 4K is definitely not intended behaviour and, with the upswing making it a problem just as the Erupting Call of Overbrine meta did with 3 genning, BHVR will act to curb the worst abuses in time.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
Slugging for the 4k only becomes a problem if the survivor to GOT slugged to begin with crawls to another continent making sure they can't be found.
Slugging for the 4k is functionally no different than coordinating an adrenaline play with your teammate.
That's completely mistaken. An adrenaline play is playing DbD as intended. What would be closer to slugging for the 4K would be if BHVR extended the EGC to four minutes and disabled the Killer's ability to attack survivors as soon as two survivors got out so the remaining survivors could then get a few extra BP and possibly pip by flashlighting and pallet stunning the Killer. It would be even closer if the Killer would get a movement debuff so they could only move at crawling speed. Then the conditions would approximate what the survivor being bled out for the 4K has as their playing conditions.
It's pretty obvious that BHVR doesn't want that as BHVR put in the Hatch mechanic so the last survivor has something to try to do and introduced the EGC to stop hatch standoffs. As well, any even half intelligent analysis would recognize that a player doing nothing for four minutes isn't healthy, enjoyable gameplay. If that is what someone is purporting then we could introduce a mechanic where after the survivors clearly win the Killer could be rendered helpless so the one or two remaining survivors could farm BP and pips for four minutes. That would be the closest functionally to what the survivor being bled out experiences.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Because it always feels like you're losing, from start to end. When you lose enough, you can almost feel the flow of the match, and notice trends in what leads to your loss. It's like, "Oh, that first chase was 45 seconds instead of 15. I'm probably losing now." Or, "I used Pain Res when I didn't need to, and now I'm wasting a use of Pop. 1 mistake and I lose." So it's not like we want the game handed to us, rather we just want something. Killer should never be scared of chasing at a certain spot and have to RETREAT from the survivor to go find something more productive to do, but it happens constantly at shack, jungle gyms, house of pain, and broken main buildings like in Badham or Garden Of Joy. Take a chase there vs a survivor who knows how to run it, you'll lose the whole game. And that's the problem: 1 survivor knows how to loop, killer could lose the whole game. The game functions off of the assumption that survivors do gens inefficient, don't use strong perks, and don't loop well. I have queued up with SWF who know what they're doing and, unless something crazy happens, it's a cakewalk basically every time. Funnily enough, they'll still say "Chucky's OP because of his stealth." and crap like that. Just goes to show that no matter the skill level, but especially at low level, survivors are gonna complain about killers being too strong, even when they're given everything they need and more to win against them.
Why should Killers never retreat from a Survivor to find something more productive to do? That's macro level play. It's not a 1v1 contest; it's a 4v1. DbD has a lot of time management involved and the side that is more efficient at managing their time and accomplishes their objectives more quickly than the other side wins.
If you view it as a 1v1 then there's no wonder you feel survivors are so strong as you're literally ignoring the macro component of gameplay. You're not against an individual survivor; you're against 4 and if you can't keep up enough pressure to hinder the 4 then your loss is warranted as the Survivor's collective skill as a group is greater than your individual skill as a Killer.
To say that Killers should never have to retreat, win every individual chase eventually, and still 4K with no thought for the macro game or the consequences of letting Survivors be hands free for significant portions of the game is very entitled.
