TheSubstitute
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3862445#Comment_3862445
ok.. so you have 0 argument, youre just mad
There has to be something to actually discuss and the other side has to use critical thinking for any discussion to be valuable. As an example, you called me a 'baby survivor'. Looking at my profile for half a second would show I have over 2,500 posts. If you were curious enough to check my join date you would see I joined in 2021. Even the most rudimentary usage of critical thinking would piece together that the chance I joined the forums to comment extensively on a game I don't play or barely play and kept it at it for 4 years is pretty much nil.
There also has to be something of substance in order to respond. Your argument doesn't have that.
I suspect the only person here that is mad is you due to your responses since you don't want to confront that you support play styles, and most likely engage in them, that are more toxic than the exit gate teabaggers. I would suggest, for your peace of mind, that you either accept that you're that toxic while gaming and not care or to stop slugging for the 4K. It's not like BHVR is going to punish either slugging for the 4K (or exit gate teabaggers for that matter) either way and right now you're just using stock responses instead of actually making any real arguments of your own.
If you do say something original or that addresses any points made and isn't a rehashed stock point that's already been debunked multiple times in this thread I'll respond. But, if not, have a good day.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3862044#Comment_3862044
okay.. baby survivor spotted. just because killer slugged you for 2 minutes to get 4th kill is not toxic at all XD it would be if 4th kill wouldn't give blood points or anything at all but its rewarding so why can't killer choose to slug one guy for few minutes (no more than 4) to kill everyone? XD
you're just mad because you play survivor and killer's are slugging you for 4th kill or you are the 4th guy and you're mad because you can't take hatch XD
there is absolutely no reason for killers to let 4th guy escape and not slug 3rd for few minutes to kill 4th, absolutely no reason to let you escape. but there is also absolutely no reason for survivors to teabagging ;), there is no reward for thisThat's exactly the type of nonsense I would expect somebody who is even more toxic than the exit gate teabaggers to say. Thanks for helping prove my point.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861550#Comment_3861550
teabagging is just toxic behavior… don't compare this to getting 4k XDDDDDD. that's ignorance.
Toxic behaviour is behaviour that is skewed towards accommodating one individual's needs and demands.
By slugging for the 4K you are circumventing intended game mechanics (where the Hatch spawns and the last survivor and Killer look for the Hatch), you are wasting two people's time and changing intended game mechanics to skew towards you, and if you're doing it regularly you're doing it mainly for the ego satisfaction of a 4K (as on a BP basis and time spent getting into a new match you are better off hooking the 3rd person with the only exceptions being achievements and tome challenges).
Congratulations, you just hit every metric on slugging for the 4K being toxic. If you do this you are just as toxic as the teabaggers at the exit gate. The only ignorance here is attempting to claim that slugging for the 4K isn't as toxic as teabagging at the exit gate and all the gaslighting in the thread attempting to put the blame on Survivor players for negative Killer behaviours that the Killers choose to initiate.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861610#Comment_3861610
Oh all of this, and especially your point about long winstreak chains and stomping a lot. It's soooooo so boring. So boring. I know for I get bored when I am getting stomped, that's boring and demoralizing. But I also usually turn the game off when I am the one who is doing the stomping, because that is also boring. In fact I have been on an off and on hiatus from the game for a bit because the results I got were either, I stomped, I had to sweat super hard to barely win, or I got stomped. None of which were fun to me, and all of which were stressful.
I want an experience that is more like, I have space to choose how hard I wanna stomp. Give me some breathing room, just a little please and thanks. Play the round, do the round, but let me BREATHE slightly and I will let YOU breathe. The more complex the Killer I find the more difficult it is to get that breathing room and orient. I just don't enjoy that.
Why do people play and Main M1 Killers? Why do people Main TRAPPER of all Killers especially? Why do I Main someone like Ghostface who has very little power and is somewhat map dependent? Why do I play M1s that have to Mindgame more often than Killers that can hit over pallets really easily? For good reason - there's challenge there. I can show skill there. I can have a fun interesting interaction there.So when people say, "[M1 Killer] is so weak. [M1 Killer] is so bad. You will not win against good Survivors with [M1 Killer]. Why do you Main [M1 Killer]?"
I just go, "Because it's more fun."And it is. It is more fun. There is no joy in a battle that isn't slightly frustrating, because a battle that's frustrating makes you think. It has stakes. It makes you adapt.
It makes you learn.
And that's why people Main M1, C tier, D tier, and less powerful Killers.
Yes, definitely. That's why games that are less snowbally are better for player retention and enjoyment. Overall, people enjoy that more in the long run.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861610#Comment_3861610
I'm saying people enjoy it when they stomp on their opponents. But in order for that to happen, the game needs to have lopsided game that are both for and against each player, so that everyone has the opportunity to stomp over their opponents.
The game currently allows lopsided games, and is between a 30% and 70% win rate, so it's already following your math equation. The game currently allows everyone to have their turn at stomping their opponents.
But that's simply not true for the majority of people. If it were true then gankers and twinks would be the majority in MMORPGs and they're not. And you still haven't directly answered my question; do you enjoy it when you get stomped by Survivors? Or is it you only enjoy it if you get to stomp?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861292#Comment_3861292
People want lopsided games where they win. People don't actually want to have more games that end in a draw. That isn't exciting, that isn't memorable.
That's not true of the majority of people. Stomping is pretty boring especially after a long chain of it. You can see that with people who twink and gank in MMORPGs. Do they exist? Yes. Are they the majority? No. The only studies I've heard about that have been done on it came to the conclusion that people, on average, need to win at least 30% of the time to stay engaged and, after winning about 70% of the time or more people lose interest over the long run since it's not challenging enough. Perception as to the causes why someone won or lost play a factor but, overall, people do prefer something that's mentally stimulating and engaging and constant lopsided matches aren't that
I also get the impression that you're not considering the other side of the equation. Are you saying you enjoy it when you get stomped by Survivors? Or are you saying you only enjoy the game when you stomp your opponents?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861271#Comment_3861271
Many people like seeing lopsided matches when it's survivor sided. Some of the popular content creators gets millions of views when they post a video of them stomping all over killers.
How many views to do think content creators get when they post fair and balanced gameplay footage? Do you really think that is what gets the most viewers?
Which is totally and completely irrelevant to whether or not people would prefer less lopsided matches, if people like being tunnelled or slugged for the 4K, or if BHVR would be better served by making the game more enjoyable.
As well, and I could be mistaken, but isn't the most popular DbD streamer Otz who primarily plays Killer? I can bring up ad hoc examples 'you know but this person here might' in a vague fashion all I want but it's neither conclusive nor persuasive to do so. People want to have fun playing games; that's why people play games. People don't like having their time wasted which is why tunnelling and being slugged for the 4K dislike being the target of such behaviour so much. If you don't have empathy for your opponents that doesn't really matter in the long run as BHVR is a business that makes video games and their survival depends on people enjoying playing. If enough people don't show empathy to their opponents it's in BHVR's best interest to have as many people enjoy the game as possible and to use game mechanics to achieve that
Everything else you've said has been an attempt to deflect from those statements and is irrelevant to whether or not BHVR making the game more enjoyable for more players is a good idea.
In any event, I have some plans I have to get to now. I hope you have a good evening as well
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861267#Comment_3861267
People wanting lopsided games means that people want the game to be snowbally, and therefore wouldn't want a lot of the snowball potential to be taken away.
Some of the most people DBD videos involve survivors being extremely better than their killer opponents. "Survivor hardcore challenges", when survivors purposely manipulate their MMR so they are matched against low MMR survivors, can have an extremely high viewer count. And some of the most popular DBD videos involve survivors completely outplaying their killer opponents. People want drama and excitement. They don't want games to be rigged so that tied games are much more frequent.
That's a reinvention of history. Killers primarily wanted less strict match making as it was too stressful at higher MMRs; lower MMR Killers didn't seem to care that much. High MMR individuals on both sides wanted shorter queue times. Dowsey, for instance, had 45 minute long queues. There weren't that many Survivors who cared.
As well, one of the most common complaints about DbD is that it's too much of a stomp on one side or another. There are more people advocating for more enjoyable matches and being stomped isn't fun for nearly anyone and stomping continuously isn't fun either for a significant percentage of people.
If you prefer lopsided matches and you don't want to care about the other players' enjoyment may I suggest single player games or bot matches? If you'd prefer to play against a person then you're going to have to deal with the fact that, if BHVR wants to continue being successful as a business, it has to keep the majority of its end users happy and it's clear there's a problem with the Survivor role currently. So, regardless of whether you personally care or not, BHVR will care as it affects their bottom line. That's how a business keeps its lights on.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861234#Comment_3861234
MMR was purposely made less strict, because people don't want everything to be balanced and equal. They want for some of the games to be lopsided, which means a decent amount of 0k or 4k games.
When MMR was at its most strict, the games were way more balanced, and the giant killer win streaks were pretty much non existent. And so many people complained that they weren't having fun, that MMR was heavily nerfed, so there would be more lopsided games.
Yes, the stricter MMR is the less people enjoy DbD overall. That has only a tenuous connection to how people dislike being tunnelled or slugged for the 4K. It does help illustrate how using balance as an end goal and not a tool to achieve fun can make a game worse though.
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Quite a few but I think one of the most humourous was when I got my Evil Incarnate achievement because the Survivors I was facing kept teabagging me and quite often in a group.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861211#Comment_3861211
Lowering the snowball potential in this game, would make it much more likely that killers would get at least 1 or 2 kills. Can you imagine how many people would be unhappy with that, and would say it's "free kills that the killer didn't earn"?
And more people would enjoy the matches if the game was less snowbally. What's more important; more people enjoying the game or hypothetical forum salt that would be no different and probably less common than the salt that's accumulated now?
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@Karth said:
Add Skill Based Matchmaking to that list.
Only way to have fun as survivor, for me, personally is to destroy my mmr so i can screw around while severly lower the risk on eating dirt for 4 minutes or get hard-tunneled. This sometimes still happens, though, but way less frequent.
God forbid i try to run a meme-build/playstyle against opponements that just hard-focus on winning nothing else (this goes for both sides fyi)
Heres another one, optimizing the fun out of this game. Both sides complain about OP stuff, it gets nerfed if complains are hard enough, people find other ways to win, making it hella unfun. hell certain techs are also removed what made the game interesting (I will NEVER forget the first time when I encountered a cracked Sky Billy on Midwich)
I'm assuming you're referring to my list from the phrasing but I wasn't pinged. Apologies if I'm not the person you're responding to.
Yes, on a larger scale I would agree SBMM is an issue. The matches are a lot fairer under SBMM but the question is are they more fun overall? Balance is a tool to achieve fun but not the end goal. It's completely possible to balance all the fun out of a game; VHS is a fairly recent example.
Also, as @Akumakaji has mentioned several times earlier and quite correctly in my opinion, SBMM contributes to optimizing the fun out of a game. An MMR system, by definition, means players should face harder and harder opponents and have to become more efficient with their tactics or they will lose more and more until their MMR drops. The stricter the match making is, the more often that will take place.
That's why I quite often offer feedback that suggests more base kit gen defense at the beginning (to slow down Survivors while they're at their strongest) to repair buffs when Survivors die (to make it harder for the Killer when they're at their strongest).
That would encourage spreading hooks more which was encouraged more under the Emblems system and part of the reason why the games were more fun. Right now, MMR just forces sweatier and sweatier tactics the more somebody wins and seems like it's lost the forest for the trees by focusing on balance as an end goal and not on whether the players are enjoying themselves and balance was used as a tool to achieve fun.
So, yes, I do think SBMMR contributes a lot to the issues at hand although it's not the only cause.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861128#Comment_3861128
If camping, tunneling, slugging, and 3-gen.. are all unfun for survivors, then what buffs do you think killers should get as compensation, if those strategies are nerfed? If maps are made more killer sided, that would be considered unfun for survivors. If killers get more powerful in chases, that would be considered unfun for survivors.
Seriously, what possible buffs do you think killers could get, that would be considered as "fun for both sides"?
Changes to numbers, cooldowns, base gen defense, etc depending on the Killer in question. A general approach could be tying gen repair speeds to number of Survivors left alive so gens are slower at the beginning but speed up as Survivors get sacrificed instead of being the tunnel target or in an almost completely unwinnable situation if at least 3 gens aren't completed before the tunnel target gets taken out. A game whose mechanics favour spreading hooks would be a much better game overall.
For specific Killers it would depend based on the Killer. Perhaps Blight is completely fine but Clown needs more buffs.
There are multiple solutions that can yield the desired results. They just require more coding and time than trying to use perks as bandaids. Also, please refer to my side note in the previous post as to why saying 'but someone will complain' is not a viable metric nor reason to not make any changes especially when the majority of players find a video game isn't fun due to X (in this case, tunnelling and slugging for a 4K).
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@Coffeecrashing said:
The kill rate is purposely chosen to be 60%. If maps are redesigned to have more survivor-sided loops, then BHVR would need to do something else killer-sided to move the kill rate back to 60%. If more anti-slugging is added to the game, then BHVR would need to do something else killer-sided to move the kill rate back to 60%.
In every single scenario, where survivors get a buff that would lower the kill rate, there would need to be a killer-sided change to move the kill rate back to 60%. And survivors would complain about this killer-sided change, regardless of what it is.
Because for reals, let's pretend BHVR does make a very survivor-sided change to make games less frustrating for survivors. What killer-sided change do you think is fair compensation, that is powerful enough to move the kill rates back to 60%?
It is true that something would have to be done to move the kill rate back to 60% if changes lowered the kill rate below 60%. The issue that you're ignoring is that survivor is not fun due to strategies such as slugging for the 4K and tunnelling which nobody who is not being deliberately obtuse can argue that solo queue has the tools to effectively counter.
Many of the people arguing for changes, including myself, have stated that they're fine with a 60% kill rate; they just want to have fun as this is a video game and a form of entertainment. Other than comp prizes and streamers who have a sufficient sized enough audience to earn money it means nothing in real life. It is as impactful as watching a web series or other show.
Having one side have basekit access to a tactic (tunnelling) that is even more overpowered than the pre- 6.1 DH for distance was when applied against solos is not fun. Having to wait for 4 minutes sitting on the ground because somebody wants to circumvent intended game mechanics for what's an ego thing and they would rather waste two other player's time instead of a scenario that's balanced in the Killer's favour is not fun. One of the reasons why changing pre 6.1 DH, release CoH, etc was changed is that they were not fun to face and anyone who is familiar with my posting history knows I supported those changes especially getting rid of the PTSD inducing DH for distance.
Those exact same arguments apply against tunnelling and slugging for the 4K. Some people like going all in on the tribalism approach but the reality is everyone is just a DbD player. What's best for the game and community is if everyone can enjoy the game as that's what everyone is here for. Then if the kill rate is below 60% on any Killer then BHVR can tweak things so it goes back up to 60%.
Side note: It also doesn't matter if somebody complains about a change. Realistically this is the Internet. You can't even say the Earth is round or humanity went to the Moon without somebody eventually arguing about it on the Internet. Someone will always complain about everything so the possibility of a complaint can't be used as a metric about whether or not something should be done.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860369#Comment_3860369
The empathy argument is invalid, because it doesn't apply to both sides of the game. What things do survivors do, that lower their chances of survival, out of empathy for killers?
The empathy argument is always valid even if your analogy of survivors lowering their chance of winning is non-sensical as the Killer has already won in the situation we're describing. We're now discussing should two other people's time be wasted when the Killer has already won and the Killer gets more BP and faster matches by simply hooking the third survivor (and already has a greater than 50% chance of getting a 4K faster than they would by bleeding out the second last survivor).
The only reason you can even argue this in DbD is because we have no control over whom we're placed against. If players did have control then the people who bleed out for the 4K would either change their behaviour or have nobody to play with as nobody would choose to play against them just as it happens to people with that attitude in real life, the comp setting or anywhere where people have influence over whom they face.
And, yes, I have seen survivors lower their chance of winning out of empathy. I've done it; just a couple days ago after a Myers running both iris caught the third survivor I deliberately ran up to the Killer so the Myers could get the achievement they were most likely going for. That's not the first time I've done something like that nor will it be the last.
However, stories like that won't get talked about as much as negative stories as people prefer to complain than praise but I have also seen other survivors do similar things. So, while uncommon, you can't say it never happens. I will say it will probably never happen to a Killer who just wants to win at all costs because they're the type of player who, if people were choosing matches in real life, people would want to avoid playing anything with them.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859339#Comment_3859339
This is a PvP game, and a 4k is worth more MMR than a 3k. That is a perfect reason by itself.
Pretty much what @Firellius said. Chasing an invisible number that you can't even say what it is and using that to justify wasting everyone's time is not an argument that flies to anyone who has any consideration for the people on the other side of that computer screen.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859982#Comment_3859982
Then I'm wrong. If it's up to me, all these things are awful.
However, as I said. I'm done trying to deal with this playerbase problems.
For years I've tried to bring positivity to these forums when possible.
This is my breaking point. I have enough real life issues that show me how cruel this world can be. It's pointless to try to improve something here. From my experience, nothing changes.
That's correct. All those things are awful. Unfortunately, you're correct that things probably won't change either for a long time. It took decades before the video game community moved away from using the r- word as common nomenclature so people not teabagging or humping probably won't happen for a long time either. It sucks, but for peace of mind, it's better to not think about it too much.
On a more important note, I don't know what's happening in your real life but I hope you get support for what you need. Things can really suck at times.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859940#Comment_3859940
I've had discussions with people that humping is harmless, told me to grow thicker skin. I had discussions with people that tbagging is harmless. Just in game stuff. What i took from those discussions is, that indicating a real life crime goes way beyond simple taunting. "humping" doesn't leave much to imagination. It's a powerful person "humping" a vulnerable victim on the ground. It's a serious issue that people find this acceptable.
Is tbagging fine? I don't like it. I grew accustom to it. I grew thicker skin so to say.
Just a few months back there was someone writing that they could not play this game anymore due to some killer humping them while playing survivor. This is serious.
I've never seen people say the same about tbagging. Maybe I'm wrong.
Doesn't matter though. Over the years I've tried to improve people's mindsets here. I see that nothing changes. Why bother trying.
I didn't see this before my last response (otherwise I would have included it there) but you are wrong. I have seen people leave video games over being teabagged and during the ten years I worked with abused individuals this was a triggering behaviour in some cases. However, anytime anyone would bring up their discomfort online they'd be told 'it's not so bad, it isn't a big deal, it's just an in-game thing, maybe video games aren't for you, etc' and any of the other arguments that were also used a couple decades ago when people would say they were going to or had sexually assaulted their opponents but using the r- word and people expressed discomfort with that. And then of course they had to deal with hostility and being dismissed for saying hey, perhaps we shouldn't imply or mimic sexual assaults even if it is in a video game because of common human courtesy.
The video game community has always had a problem with toxicity and justifying behaviours that would never be considered acceptable if they could see the person on the other side and teabagging is just the most current manifestation.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859960#Comment_3859960
Again, I'm done trying. It's real enough for me. You win.
Let the behaviour of this playerbase rot. Nothing changes anyway.
The point is you're using a double standard. Humping is bad due to what it implies just as teabagging is bad due to what it implies. Neither should be done. You're saying it's okay if survivors do it but not if Killers do it; that's encouraging bad behaviour not speaking out against it
Here's a screenshot, by the way, of where the Navy specifically called out teabagging as it was used to sexually assault new recruits (Behaviour 7 of 8)
You're not speaking out against activities that imply sexual assault; you're supporting it but only for one side with your arguments. If you were speaking out you'd say neither humping nor teabagging should be done.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859887#Comment_3859887
I don't like it either. However, if I have to distinguish in-game toxicity between someone crouching and someone intentionally reinacting a real life crime.
The real life crime takes priority in my book
Here's a real life crime involving teabagging. Is that which crime you're referring to?
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859683#Comment_3859683
Tbagging is not toxic, no. Hitting on hook is not toxic, no. Animation spamming is also not toxic. This is taunting. Fine by me although unpleasant.
Slugging, genrushing, camping and tunneling are also not toxic as isnt using strong loadout.
Humping on the other hand is. Why? Because of what it implies.
If humping is toxic because of what it implies but teabagging isn't are you aware of what teabagging implies? I don't really think you are if you're taking that stance. Everything you said against humping, what it implies, how it has no in-game value, how it's done solely to make the other side feel bad, also applies to teabagging.
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@hermitkermit said:
I always farm during events. I feel like there’s a lot of sweat and it’s nice to be able to enjoy the break. On rare occasions I will have a survivor just DC because they’re not happy but, it’s pretty rare. It’s typically a great time. Everybody gets to take advantage of the BP and all of them line up in rows for me for hooks, we do a snowball fight maybe a little slug race and sometimes a survivor or two will stay behind and sacrifice themselves so I get kills out of it.
I’m sorry it annoys you though OP. At least you can just do gens and get points in an easy game and just get out of it quick.
I typically end my time on DbD for the day with a farming session too. For the event, I'm stalking people with Ghostface in a snowman stabbing them once and running away for another snowman, menacingly watching a gen be done through the window at Killer Shack as a snowman, stalking people to 100% and then smacking them with a snowball and things like that. I still have a bunch of Frightful Flans to play too.
I keep my meming Killers away from the Killers I play seriously on to not feel like I'm kicking puppies with the survivors I get matched with after the event's over. My two favourite Killers for meming are Ghostface and Scratched Mirror Myers with an indoor map offering.
Typically everyone likes it as well and if somebody doesn't they can end the game quickly by just doing gens fast.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859132#Comment_3859132
It's a lose/lose. And better to inconvenience someone for 4 minutes than have your time wasted for 20.How many times has this situation ever happened to you? Because I can't think of a single time its ever happened to me where there was
1: save at 2 survivors
2: they both got away
3: they managed to hide out for 20 minutes
Even if there is a slight chance of it, you are also wasting your own time. You'll have far more of those 4 minute situations than you will the 20. Even if you have no qualms about wasting other player's time, you're doing it to yourself as well.
It's happened to me once I think ever since 2021. It's a non-issue.
What this virtually non-existent situation is in the thread is a flimsy excuse to attempt to justify slugging the second last survivor for the 4K and try to convince people it's the survivors' fault instead of the Killer player who created the the situation.
You can see that in how contradictory and non-sensical the arguments for it are. The Killer will save more of their own time overall by hooking the second last survivor and then moving on. Instead of potentially wasting 4 minutes for a survivor to bleed out and then start the Hatch RNG the Killer could just start the Hatch RNG and then probably be in another match by the time they would have bled out the slugged survivor in the last match.
The BP argument is nonsensical since you're talking about a few BP in one category. By entering a fresh match faster the overall BP earned by a Killer is higher per minute is much higher than bleeding out a Survivor to lessen the chance the last Survivor might get Hatch.
The Hatch is Killer slanted anyways since the Killer has a much faster movement rate and their search won't be hindered by stopping to hide. The Killer is the hunter; not the hunted and in most cases the Killer will have a faster match and more BP overall by just hooking the second last survivor.
There are no logical reasons to bleed out the second last survivor other than an Adept or achievement and it's poor sportsmanship besides. The OP seems bothered by that and being BMed by Survivors so, instead of becoming the type of player others would like to play against, engages in the sort of behaviours that create more BM against Killer players and is trying to justify their position when they're behaving just as poorly as the people the OP is criticizing. It's obvious from the responses it's not working and most people agree that bleeding out the second last survivor is poor sportsmanship. So, in my opinion, the sluggers for the 4K should just either change their behaviour or own their behaviour. They're not going to convince the person being bled out that it was good sportsmanship to bleed them out since it's obviously not so. It's pointless to try to convince the bled out player otherwise; they know how much it sucked. If the sluggers for the 4K genuinely don't care about people's opinions then don't try to argue something that's not okay is; just recognize that's how they play and they aren't considerate of the other players time. It's not like BHVR is going to ban the sluggers for slugging for the 4K or anything so either they should either own their behaviour or change their behaviour.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858680#Comment_3858680
Care? Not really. It's annoying enough that I'll try to prevent it in future.
That entire page long paragraph misses the point. I'll inconvenience someone for 4 minutes to avoid being inconvenienced for 20+. It's not only the fault of the hiders, it's BHVR's fault for having so many ways to avoid AFK crows. If they cared, this would have been fixed a long time ago.
Again - 4 minutes versus server closing time. Neither are great, but one is objectively worse than the other.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858799#Comment_3858799
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Y6KU1QVNX4M4/image.png
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858814#Comment_3858814
And posts like this contribute to killers being mean. Because if you legitimately want them to suffer, then…well, isn't turnabout fair play?
(The game isn't balanced around solo queue. SWF versus killer is pretty balanced, some things excepted).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858798#Comment_3858798
It is what it is. If they wanted it fixed, it would be fixed already.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858760#Comment_3858760
Hatch - minor concern, mostly because BM can be annoying.
Hiding - major concern. Especially if they somehow manage to unhook or pick up.
It's easier just to camp the slug. Sucks, but hunting all over the map for 2 survivors who want to troll sucks more.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858752#Comment_3858752
Survivors give up because they want to go to the next game. I'm completely against it, but I understand. Time is valuable.
Now, apply this logic to 2 survivors potentially taking the match hostage in a way BHVR does not seem to want to fix or take action on. Slugging is preferable.
You once again avoid the point. You don't need to risk having someone hide for 20 minutes if you just pick up the downed survivor and hook them instead of slugging them. They die and the game goes on as intended with the Killer and last survivor looking for Hatch with the Killer already having the advantage in finding it since the Killer moves faster and isn't slowing down or hiding to avoid being spotted.
Also, if you were nonchalant about the teabagging at Hatch like you claim to be you wouldn't be talking about it on the forums. You won the match of DbD because they had to use hatch; they won the mind game they tried to do because the incident still lives rent free in your head.
My point is that claiming slugging for the 4K is in any way, shape or form more justified than locker hopping for the Hatch is an example of cognitive dissonance. Anyone who slugs the second last survivor for the 4K is just as guilty as bad behaviour as the person locker hopping for Hatch.
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@Akumakaji said:
One small change that could help at least a little bit in this regard would be this: a hatch escape still counts as the kill for the killer, so that they can Adapt or claim a 4K challenge or bonus or whatever. It would take out a couple more of the driving forces behind killers feeling the tangible need to 4K.
The game could also acknowledge somehow that a 3K with hatch escape is a win for the killer, and instead of getting a luke warm reception from the Entity, it could give a "Entity sated", "Entity feasting on fear and despair" or "happy Entity" kinda post-game resolution, thus making the killers feel that they won. Yeah, it might be an ego thing for some, but because of the assymetric nature of the game, very often the survivor who got hatch will go to great length to gaslight the killer into believing that they didn't win. Its not a big thing for most, but it CAN sting, especially if the escaped survivor was a mean bully all game long, so the game acknowledging the win could go a long way into making killer players more content with what they got.
That's a good suggestion.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858627#Comment_3858627
You are. I'm not.
Slugging 1 person while you look for the other is kind of nasty, but again - whenever I give hatch, maybe half the time I get a survivor sitting on it or in the gate waiting for me so they can teabag and BM.
Ever consider that maybe, if instead the survivor would be mannered and maybe a bit appreciative killers would be less reluctant to be mannered in turn?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858622#Comment_3858622
However you try to couch it, 4 minutes is better than the entire match duration until the server closes.
Killers have been asking for some way to stop people hiding like that and whenever they do - well, just go look at those threads yourself. 'Game is hide and seek bruh, its not a big deal killers need to stop crying hur hur lololol'. We've got some in this thread already.
So, the teabagging survivor lost the game and is trying to get a rise out of you for what feels like a emotional dig or victory for them over you and you're giving them that satisfaction by attempting to bypass the game as intended and taking out your frustrations on other players who aren't the player who tried to get a rise out of you?
If the teabagging survivor in question actually seriously thinks they 'won' by getting what's widely acknowledged as an RNG pity escape why would you care about the opinion of someone who has so little game sense they don't understand a 3K means the Killer won?
The 4 minutes mention is also erroneous as it's a hard cap set by BHVR. The intent behind both slugging the second last survivor for the 4K and hiding in a locker for the Hatch is to bypass game mechanics and gameplay as intended and waste another player's time and, if the timer were one hour, the same people who try to justify it now would try to justify it then. If you want to say the Killer's role is to kill and that justifies slugging the second last survivor then the Survivor's role is to survive and that would justify the hiding. In reality those are just examples of poor sportsmanship and a lack of consideration for other people and the Killer who slugs the second last for the 4K is not behaving any better nor any better than the Survivor who is locker hopping in the hopes of getting Hatch
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858235#Comment_3858235
Except that one is proportionally way worse than the other…
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858444#Comment_3858444
There is nothing wrong with slugging. It's an essential part of the game. I'd love to be able to just send survivors to the hook/cage but it's not going to happen.
The problem is BM slugging and bleedouts, which are very rare and also on BHVR's radar to fix. The problem is that attempts at fixing this before wound up breaking the game at higher levels of play, where slugging is an absolutely crucial part of the game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858460#Comment_3858460
Stop, you're getting straw all over the place.
Slugging is fine. Bleeding everyone out to BM is not. Slugging for the 4k isn't nice, but it could be ended by the last survivor just giving up and not wasting everyone's time.
It's not proportionally much worse though. It's the exact same reason, intention, and the old Hatch standoffs showed for how long it can go. What is proportionally worse is people propagating a false us vs them when Killer players are just as guilty of the exact same behaviour as Survivor players.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858157#Comment_3858157
Slugging for 4min max is very different to hiding for 20+ min. It's no different to hooking someone and have hook timer as the killers timeframe to find the 4th. Slugging as a tactic is used to circumvent hook related perks, using it to get round the hatch is no different as the 4th can heal their team mate just as they can unhook. It's not about trying to get people to DC like hiding is. Deliberately slugging the whole team and refusing to hook them might be considered similar to trying to make people DC but even then it's only 4min. It doesn't force them to wait out until 1 hour server ends which is what people hiding try to do.
It's pretty much the exact same thing. The only reason why it's only for four minutes is because BHVR put a hard cap on the time before someone bleeds out. If it were an hour to bleed out the same Killers who now slug for the 4K would telling Survivors to go watch a TV or grab a sandwich.
The bottom line is you're wasting another player's time instead of progressing the game as intended; any Killer who slugs the second last survivor for the 4K is not behaving any better than the Survivors who hide out and wait for Hatch.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858086#Comment_3858086
Slugging and hiding are very different, slugging is acceptable at any point in the match. Avoiding the objective for a prolonged time (not doing gens) is called holding game hostage as it doesn't progress the match and doesn't allow normal gameplay. This alone shows they are very different.
Slugging to create pressure is different. Slugging the second last survivor to try to circumvent game mechanics that were put into place to stop time being wasted is just the flip side of the coin of trying to get the Killer to DC by hiding.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858060#Comment_3858060
How does the hatch prevent this when survivors do the same thing when it's 2 v 1? I'm aware some would hide regardless, just like some killers will slug regardless but less people would do it if they didn't have a reason
If both survivors hide long enough for the Killer to DC both would get an escape when the Killer DCs. If the Killer finds one then the last survivor would just continue hiding instead of the Killer being able to force an EGC by closing the Hatch.
If your concern is in the two survivors hiding example wasting time a more constructive solution would be crows starting on the basis of no activities to progress the game (eg no gens touched, no chases, no heals etc) after x minutes instead of essentially going AFK in usually a locker starting the crows timer.
It's important to note though that in terms of player behaviour, attitudes and motivation there's no difference between Killers who slug the second last survivor and survivors who'll hide in the hopes of getting Hatch. It's the same type of behaviour just expressed differently because of the game role.
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Well, since video game players are individuals you would probably get different answers based on who you ask.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857976#Comment_3857976
Assuming the hatch didn't exist what would the incentive be to hide? If 2 survivors acknowledge they can't win then why shouldn't the game be over for them? 3k is only treated as a win in regards to MMR, an invisible number that no one has any idea what number it is. However 3k doesn't give mori, doesn't count towards certain achievements and doesn't give as many BP as 4k. So in this regard, 3k isn't considered a win.
If the Killer DCs it's an automatic escape for the Survivors. So, if a Survivor wants to be as stubborn as the Killers that slug for a 4K, why not hide and see if you can get the Killer to DC and get an escape? That's what the Hatch with EGC prevents. If there are so many people so unnecessarily invested in a casual match they'll waste minutes of another person's life by slugging the second last survivor instead of just hooking and moving on what makes you think there wouldn't be multiple people so unnecessarily invested in winning they wouldn't hide in bushes until the server shut down?
Go take a look at a video of the old Hatch standoffs and see how much fun they would have been.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856020#Comment_3856020
Yeah, the game where half the survivors are running around with stunning builds that hold you in place, unable to do anything, for like 15 seconds.
Yeah the TCM community makes the DbD community look wholesome and supportive.
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@Unequalmitten86 said:
This is also true for survivor behavior and I'm a survivor main.
I have had the same matches as you as survivor. When I play killer its usually for Daily's or Tome challenges. If I get one where I don't need to off someone I will.play friendly but survivors are not being that way either. I'm still trying to figure these gens going off so quick with no perks. When I plays survivor it's so slow and we normally don't get any but 1 or 2.
The game as a whole is in a bad spot due to player mentality and I can't wait until TCM goes on sale.
You're going to look for wholesomeness with TCM? Good luck with that.
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@[Deleted User] said:
He's scary.
The true reason. Also, he should always have Lightborn equipped because, well, sunglasses.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854828#Comment_3854828
A change on gen speeds based on survivors alive is something i haven't thought of and probably the easiest.
I think it would be the easiest to implement since Sole Survivor exists so there's already something similar in the code. Your idea is far more interesting and cooler but I don't know if BHVR would put in the time and hours to implement it.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854828#Comment_3854828
Your gen speed idea would actually mostly just promote a slugging meta...
I don't think so. A survivor dying from slugging would still speed up gens. Realistically, if a Killer can pull off a 4 person slug then the survivors either made a series of blunders or the Killer was going to win anyways. It's a miserable strategy to employ but any complaints about slugging a full group of 4 people (as opposed to slug the second last to look for the last) has far more than just slugging in play: match making is also at work and the survivors were most likely treated like chum by the match making algorithm.
My issue with a slug for the 4K isn't that it's possible anyway; it's that it wastes another player's time for what's likely an egotistical goal. Having players sit around and do nothing for extended periods of time is never a well designed feature.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852559#Comment_3852559
How would it be possible to make tunneling impossible without having serious balance problems by telling 1 survivor "You are untouchable"?
@Reinami 's suggestion is really good but I don't know if it could be coded in.
Another possibility is having a repair debuff on gens while all survivors are alive and have it replaced by a gen repair buff when a survivor dies (and have it scale in speed depending on how many survivors are alive). That would slow down the early game and give more time to spread hooks while also making it so a survivor dying doesn't mean it becomes nearly impossible to do the gens. Theoretically the best chance for a 4K under this system would be to put everyone on death hook before starting to sacrifice survivors.
Another option that doesn't change mechanics is buffing gen defense perks but having them deactivate on survivor death. Pain Res could go back to 25% each hook but stop working when a survivor dies and Ruin could go to 200% again but once again deactivate. This doesn't provide a disincentive to not tunnel though which I think is also important.
Another option suggested was having group hook states. That wasn't my preference but it would work as well. It would probably need gen repair speed adjustments based off my gut feeling. I could be wrong though.
Another option would be cages sort of like how they do it in 2v8. The Killer saves time by not walking to hook and, in return, the Survivor is hard to find making it more difficult to tunnel.
Anyway, that's a summary of suggestions I remember seeing. It's perfectly possible to get rid of tunnelling (or decrease it substantially) if BHVR would test a solution and code it in.
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Speed up bleed out or give an auto bleed out button at two survivors left or if all survivors are slugged and UB, Exponential and Plot Twist aren't in play.
There's no inherent issue with a Killer going for a 4K by itself. Making another player do nothing for 4 minutes is quite rude and an issue and the Killer's already won; the issue is a player or players not being able to do anything for four minutes straight.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851524#Comment_3851524
So use Babysitter, WGLF, or something else if you're this paranoid about preventing a strategy the devs said is valid gameplay, but don't expect the Killer to be happy with you and also it won't win you rounds against any Killer who spreads hooks.
How does any of that relate to STB being a bad perk and your logic being flawed?
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850735#Comment_3850735
I think if you're stupid enough to not wait until the Killer is well out of range to go for a save when you have this perk, you kind of deserve the Killer coming back to the hook to merk your silly ass. XD You're EXPOSED, you SCREAM when you take the hook stage away, if you're really not planning ahead using this perk of course the Killer will use it to their advantage.
Some Killers also counter this perk by being fast or ranged. Nurse, Billy, Blight, Huntress, Slinger, and Xeno can all get back to hooks fast making this perk really not great to use against them. Stealth Killers are also dangerous too, someone like Ghostface, Pig, or a Tier I/stealth build Myers could be expecting you to do this and may be close to the hook banking up stalk, in crouch, etc. and waiting to slap you for a free Kill. Yes, you can loop them and run chase, but you still are Exposed and all it takes is you screwing up once. And even the best Survivor can screw up chase.
I really don't know who is seriously taking this perk besides four man "never hook me never catch me" SWFs who sabo and Boil Over and StB and stuff to mess with the Killer. I'm not playing for a bit right now, on a break, but it can't be that common a pick, right?
The problem with the logic in your first sentence is the perk is supposed to help against tunnelling. How many tunnellers do you see that don't also proxy camp and return to the hook as fast as possible? That's part of why this is such a bad perk. I don't know how BHVR defines tunnelling but the definition I use pretty much implies the Killer is also going to proxy camp by definition.
So, if a Survivor should be merked for using this when a Killer is near, and a tunnelling Killer will, by definition, by near, when is a Survivor supposed to use this perk and get enough value from it that it's actually worth running?
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@Shack_gen_biopod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3845918#Comment_3845918
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Q4HJCBS6XX1X/image.png
Have you maybe considered that the forums is an echo chamber consisting of ragebait, survivor opinions, and very rare actual decent discussion? Or does that only apply to reddit and twitter?
People thinking STB isn't the best surv perk currently are massively self reporting that they aren't good enough to imagine how it plays out when the survivor team has a brain.
Or they're reflecting the reality of public matches and the people who are self-reporting are those who have crutched so much on tunnelling and camping they're in a skill bracket where their chase, game awareness, etc skills are so underdeveloped they have to rely on tunnelling and camping to win and that's why think this is a strong perk outside of a few niche scenarios.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847692#Comment_3847692
Well fair point, though to play Devil's Advocate it's quite tricky to make a perk like this be useful in soloQ and not abusable by SWF.
The goal was to make a perk that allowed transfer of hook states. This at base is EXTREMELY strong, like Old Borrowed Time level strong. So how do you do it?
Well now you have basically 2 options: -
- You allow the full strength and potential of the hook trade ability and give it a huge downside/risk so that regardless of SoloQ or SWF the killer can really punish them hard (this is what BHVR opted for). Sadly this means SoloQ tends to get punished much harder than SWF.
- You stack a huge number of conditions on it similar to DS, so the perks impact is massively neutered and very situational. E.g. each player can only have a hook stage traded either way a single time. (2 possible total per survivor team).
The latter would be complained about just as much since it would massively nerf the potential of the perk, and for SoloQ again, likely would not really stop insistent tunneling... so BHVR went the former route.
I am a believer that a sufficiently skilled set of soloQ players can play like a SWF.
I know that SoloQ has a disadvantage, and that is a byproduct of the facts that information in DBD is very valuable, but players who exploit all the knowledge available to them can effectively play like SWF. Most people don't, but they can.
So to my mind, you can't make a perk with power such as this a foolproof perk that any goomba can use freely, cause then you get the Borrowed Time/Decisive Strike/Mettle of Man situations.
How you reign perks like this in is difficult, but they absolutely must be reigned in.
Even a SWF, though, can't play as effectively as they normally do without voice comms (which I don't want in DbD either). I think it was Hens' group that did that with Otzdarva and, while they did well, they didn't perform as well as they normally do when they use voice comms. I'm fine with that.
That's a side note, though, as my responses are discussing the actual state of public matches overall and not the 1 in 100 outliers. The vast majority of public matches are against solos or perhaps 2 person SWFs and this perk is useless in them.
What I would much prefer, however, is changes to base game mechanics where gen defense is much stronger while all survivors are alive and then changes to buffs to gen repair once a survivor dies to punish tunnelling, reward spreading hooks and hopefully make 2 or 3Ks more of the norm and 4Es and 4Ks the least common outcomes. However, that's also a side note but it would combat the two most common complaints of Killers and Survivors; gen speed and tunnelling by helping each side when they're at their weakest.
As it is though as of today and away from hypotheticals the perk is bad. While I can't speak to 4 person SWF games with highly coordinated gamers (who probably aren't even the majority of 4 person SWFs subset as many 4 person SWFs are just people goofing around) for solos the perk is useless. It needs a change to actually be worth running for the majority of people purchasing the chapter.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847690#Comment_3847690
Idk I've seen and played plenty of games where people go cross map just to down multiple survivors within 20 seconds, they get unhooked and full reset and somehow still get gen progress enough to get down to 1 gen or even gates. That scenario doesn't scream "not in my right skill bracket" that screams "man this game really is that easy for survivor". Dbd never has and never will be a game thats super hard to play which is impressive considering average skill. The highest form of skill factor in this game is communication/common sense.
I'm not discussing specific games though; I'm discussing the overall trend over dozens to hundreds or more of games. I'm certainly not going to argue that there aren't matches where the Killer is horribly out-matched or they lost at the loading screen because they picked Clown and not Nurse but I'm discussing the rule and not the exception. I'm arguing that public matches overall have loose enough match making and are against solos or at most 2 person SWFs enough that it is not necessary to tunnel and camp in most public matches. There's nothing like pre 6.1 DH, infinite loops or insta-repair BNPs anymore that the average player can take advantage of. In most public matches it's just overkill to tunnel and camp.
Try a new Killer but don't tunnel and camp ever with them and see, after a few months, what your win rate is. You'll still win the majority of your games. Or, if you think Survivor is easy, spend half your game time playing solo and see how hard it is to actually do well as solo against a tunnelling Killer with no communication with or knowledge of your teammates strengths, weaknesses and perks. That's the majority of matches in public matches and why it's just overkill to tunnel and camp most matches.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847687#Comment_3847687
Unfortunately no perk can combat Survivor stupid... to do that you'd have to have the most broken unbalanced stain of a perk ever... xD
My stated position on the perk has been it's useless in solo. I'm just restating that as it's unrealistic for anyone to expect that every forum poster keeps track of every other forum poster so I of course didn't expect you to know that I said that but that's my position. I'm not arguing it can't be used in a coordinated 4 person SWF; my argument has been that it's a badly designed perk as it's useless for all but a tiny portion of the player base (and the ones it benefits are the group that least needs any help).
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847672#Comment_3847672
Double edged sword. Weak enough killer and the average dbd player can beat that killer. Stronger killers still have a chance to lose to the average given dbd is half RNG. Of course I also include perks which perks can make up for bad survivors. The RNG allows for bad players to climb up because oop you got pallet city as trapper now you just default lose because no matter what you do another pallet is within 16 meters so the bad survivors can still win despite being bad.
Point being DBD RNG plays a major factor. If maps were more static with tile spawns then yes you would see bad survivors lose more and good survivors win more. But that big part of RNG is what messes everything up.But if you're saying it's RNG then that's not consistent with saying Killers need to tunnel and camp in public matches either as RNG will also favour Killers at times. My position is that matchmaking and game balance is loose enough that it's not necessary to tunnel and camp to win the majority of your matches (and it is the developer's stated intention that Killers win more than they lose). I gave two specific outliers where it would feel different but I'm not discussing outliers; I'm discussing the overall state of public matches in DbD where it's not necessary to tunnel or camp to have more wins than losses.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847314#Comment_3847314
Take Reassurance and Camaraderie with it. Punish campers uber hard.
That's a good suggestion for SWF but I play solo nearly exclusively due to my schedule. Both perks are great if people know to let you marinate on hook but solo can't communicate or coordinate that.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847636#Comment_3847636
You win a vast majority of your games because survivors end up throwing or are bad in some way? If you can post gameplay I can probably pin point exact moments what survivors should have done.
Also it's no joke that bhvr balances around the average of the game which the average of the game is like toddler level.You have to pick a position and stick to it. You've argued two points by now
- Survivors are so bad that they're throwing games and that's why hooks can be spread ; and
- Survivors are so good and efficient that Killers have to tunnel and camp.
I stated that in the majority of public matches I win most games without tunnelling and camping and, that in public matches, there are only two niche situations that someone could feasibly argue it's necessary (and one is self-inflicted). I've also stated that over thousands of matches since 2021 my MMR would have settled.
Am I on a magical server where, after thousands of games, I only get survivors that throw matches or is that if you feel tunnelling and camping is necessary it's more likely that you're either at the soft cap but not substantially above it and are paired against Survivors with much higher MMR than you or you've tunnelled and camped so much you're at an MMR where you can't compete without it since tunnelling and camping is a crutch but not necessary?
Also, are Survivors so bad they're always throwing matches or so good it's necessary to tunnel and camp? They're not compatible arguments so you'll have to pick one.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847619#Comment_3847619
No this is just how DBD has always been. Even before MMR and the horrid rank matchmaking system which was somehow better.
But it's not necessary. It hasn't been for a long while. If so, then explain why I win the vast majority of my games without tunnelling and camping? What's more likely? That if it is actually necessary it's due to the two niche situations I explained above (of which one is self-inflicted) and it's not necessary to camp and tunnel in public matches or that I'm on a magic server where, after thousands of games since 2021, my MMR hasn't settled yet?
Considering the devs stated intention is that Killers win more than they lose in public matches which explanation sounds more reasonable?
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847603#Comment_3847603
I can guarantee you that if I go into matches doing that I will only win because the other teams skill is astronomically low.
Or perhaps you're either at the soft cap but not significantly above it or you've tunnelled and camped enough you're stuck at a level where you have to. Either of those situations suck but the current game is designed so that you don't have to tunnel or camp to win the majority of matches. A specific individual meeting either of those criteria doesn't change that it's still not necessary to tunnel or camp in most public matches.