TheSubstitute
TheSubstitute
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The issue with attempting to use ancedotes as evidence is that there will be someone with the exact opposite experience. I've seen two people claim Survivor takes a long time for queues and that's exactly opposite of my experience. Just slightly under two months ago I linked to over 100 recent survivor games (I'll relink to the original post if you want to look at queue times) and not a single queue was long. In contrast, my Killer queues take longer but I wouldn't describe them the majority of them as long either.
I don't feel like referring to queue times as ancedotes proves or disproves anything. Subjectively, I can say I feel solo Survivor is at its least enjoyable point in three years but objectively using queue times proves nothing in and of itself.
@TheSubstitute said:
Here are the links to the data for those that just want to see the data and watch some mediocre Survivor play over the last couple years. DbD Survivor Game Data is from the current games. DbD Stats is from games that were about two years ago I think. The descriptions of all games show which video to look at if you want to see the video.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/EQHNXT3MT5NI/dbd-survivor-game-data.xlsx
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XVWHVOGM3952/dbd-stats.xlsx
For those of you that have the patience to read my very long post here goes.
I started an experiment because I feel that there has been a substantial decline in the quality of survivor games over the last few years and the amount of tunneling and camping has gone up substantially. Fortunately, a couple of years ago when somebody said nobody was enjoying solo survivor and I said I can’t speak for anyone else but I do the forum poster accused of me lying and being a killer main (when I’ve played Killer/Survivor 60/40 roughly for years). As such, I recorded 74 games from close to two years ago and I have a basis to make this comparison.
So what I did was recorded 100 games over the last three months so I could compare and see what the changes are. I didn’t record games during 2v8 as that was too popular and would have thrown off my basis of comparison nor did I start until after the anniversary event this year. Also if there were bugs noted such as being unable to unhook or I had to leave suddenly I did not include the session. The Excel sheets showing the stats and links to the YouTube hosting my videos are in these series of posts.
First before I start I want to clarify some definitions. Also please keep in mind that I understand that my experience is my experience and other people may have different experiences. I have an understanding of statistics and sampling so I’m not going to claim anything truly foolish like a poll out by a content creator directly applies to all regions and all MMRs in a game as large as DbD. I can only speak to my experiences.
Tunneling: This is defined as attempting to remove one survivor from the game over all others first. If survivors were swarming a Killer and someone just happened to be the first one out, or if a Killer just found a particular survivor first, that’s not tunneling. If a Killer tried to remove one survivor first but the survivors countered that’s still attempting to tunnel. The Killer just failed to do it successfully. People will also try to tunnel but just realize they’re up against a strong looper and switch to take a different person out first. That’s still tunneling. The easiest way in my opinion to judge is do they return to the hook and do they target the unhooked or the unhooker. I didn’t include it if a Survivor was specifically targeted in the endgame though.
Dbd Survivor Session 1 (youtube.com)
Auspiciously or not auspiciously depending on your point of view my first game when I started was against a tunneling Clown so you can see an example of what I consider tunneling in Survivor Session One in the first game.
Camping: This is defined as staying around the hook and the returning to the hook to hit either the unhooked person (also tunneling) or the unhooker (not tunneling). If the camping was after all gens were done I did not include it.
Slugging for the 4K: This was defined as trying to slug all survivors left to either complete the 4K to minimize Hatch chances or slugging at the very beginning to just knock all survivors on the ground to either bleed them out or hook them all at the same time to minimize any chances of Hatch.
As a sidenote if you do watch my videos please note I’m not a content creator so don’t expect editing or commentary. Two of my videos have managed to reach the dizzying heights of low double digit views (but less than 20 for each) so don’t expect too much. I’m also average as a survivor. I’m not claiming anything else but as that would put me in mid MMR my experiences are more likely to be similar to the majority of the player base as opposed to a comp survivor that would be in top MMR.
For the current sessions all the videos showing this are title Survivor Session (Number) and there were 20 sessions to get 100 games.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3822200#Comment_3822200
I realize you didn't cherry-pick the video, but there are aren't going to be many posted to YouTube that have long stretches of the streamer just waiting in a queue. Nobody is going to watch those. In other words, you're most likely to see only videos with short queue times if you're randomly pulling stuff off YouTube because people are not going to upload their videos that have a bulk of the total time just sitting watching them wait for games.
All I can tell you with absolute certainty is my own experience. Even now, during peak evening times in my region (US eastern time zone), killer queues are instant and survivor queues are consistently a few minutes long. It was way worse before recent buffs were given to killers to help boost kill rates up to the current ~40% average. If survivor queue times are still a few minutes even now after these buffs, that means that there is still a deficit of killers in the queue pool (less than the 20% needed to make a perfect overall 4:1 survivor-to-killer ratio). The killer role is still not attractive enough to get enough players to balance the queues during peak times. I don't play during the day very often, but I assume it's probably not as bad during "off-peak" times because there aren't as many people playing together in groups, and solo players are probably on average going to choose the killer role more often.
My experience is that survivor queues are instant or almost instant while Killer queues take time during peak hours (NA West). That's why making generalizations (ie there aren't enough Killers) based off of individual experiences aren't really valid. A much larger sample size has to be used to make any even semi-valid assumptions.
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I can't. How am I going to recommend 'so, come play this game with me where I'd like you to learn how to play but you can't because you're new and likely to be found first so you won't actually get a chance to play because the Killer will tunnel you off hook. I might be able to help keep you alive longer by body blocking but I'll die from doing so. We can chat for the four minutes you're bleeding out while the Killer tries to look for the last survivor for a 4K. Well, you could have tried to stay out of the Killer's way before by hiding but since aura reading is so strong and the main counter to it got nerfed to the point a new player will struggle to get a new token you'll just have to get used to the Killer beelining to you.
However, if you play enough and spend more money on a new game you're not sure you'll like instead of spending on your entertainment dollars on something else you know you'll enjoy you can get something to help you last a few seconds longer while you get tunnelled out.'
That's not really an easy sell. As much as I consider pre 6.1 DH an abomination it would have been an easier sell back then as Killers still have access to tunnelling and camping which sways the odds as much as pre 6.1 DH did. However, all the busted stuff Survivor had has been properly nerfed and it's more apparent Killers can create situations new players (and players who can't coordinate together) have little to no chance of surviving in. Being tunnelled, camped and/or bled out does not make for an engaging gameplay experience that will hook new players. I could convince them to try Killer but as there's only one Killer there's no way to play together.
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@cluelessclaudette said:
Agreed.
unpopular opinion: taking DBD seriously or leveraging MMR for DBD is a bit of a joke.
It's like saying you've got high ranking in playing mini golf and shitting on the casual customers at the mini golf center.
I know I'll get counter arguments but hear me out….
- There is no official ladder for DBD
- DBD is not a big esport
- 99.99% of us playing it, are playing it in a casual manner
- Your MMR means nothing
- Also…remember this is played SUPER SUPER casually on console and is part of game pass. You literally have people in your lobbies that will never turn the game on the next day or week. Remember this. This goes back to the mini golf center. Imagine arguing with a 50 year old grandma that is at the mini golf center and won't ever play it again for the next 365 days until her nephews next birthday.
You can also see people taking video games more seriously than any other hobby extending an overly serious viewpoint to other aspects such as how to balance the game, people should balance for the top, etc which leaves out the reality of the situation; DbD is a video game that we pay to play. It's a hobby and while people who focus on it should take pride in their achievements these achievements are no more notable than any other hobby. As an example if I said I had a castle on Siege Perilous almost nobody would care, know what I was talking about or understand whether or not that was prestigious. Nobody who doesn't play DbD cares about anything in DbD and, if the servers eventually shut down, nobody will care about anyone else's accomplishments in a short period of time.
While people should take pride in their accomplishments in their hobbies it's healthy to keep in mind that those accomplishments are, in reality, about as consequential to your life as saying you're the best darts player at your local pub and looking down on new players or lower MMR players in DbD is as cringe worthy as looking down on a new darts player in your local pub (or the grandmother playing mini golf in your example).
People focusing on 'high MMR and player's skills!' are being unhealthy and acting like elitists in a casual game that has no actual bearing on their life other than entertainment value. And, unfortunately, having MMR has increased the number of people talking about 'high MMR' even though you can't even see the number or know where you stand.
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Complaining about WoO strikes me as of on about the same level as complaints I read about Clown being 'OP' since Clown had unlimited bottles.
The main reason why WoO is complained about now is because there will always be complaints from people who favour one side over another in a two sided game where both sides aren't completely equal and survivor perks have reached such a level of limited utility that WoO is considered "complaint worthy" by people who don't or have almost never touched survivor.
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I'm in agreement with @GeneralV . I'm fine with a 60% kill rate but not if it's accomplished by diminishing the enjoyment of another substantially sized group of players. If I'm going to lose more than I win as survivor then at least make the matches enjoyable.
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A comeback mechanic where gen repair speeds increase once a survivor is sacrificed so that having one person tunnelled out isn't an automatic 4k over 90 percent of the time. A lot of survivors that go next do that because they don't see a chance of escape so give them a chance.
If this is also balanced out with slowing down gen speeds while all survivors are alive this should encourage 1, 2 and 3Ks more often.
It also incidentally discourages tunnelling as spreading hooks would become more effective. That would also discourage going next as people are more likely to stay in an enjoyable match instead of one that's not enjoyable.
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@IIITweedleIII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815960#Comment_3815960
You and SOME Others bring up IRL issues, are the same as those that blame ViDEO Games for bad things in this world. When Video Games is supposed to be a place to relieve the IRL tensions of the world. Just like those agreeing bunch to a post about not wanting to see Mori's in game because they feel watching violence and "gore" in game is "appalling".
It's a video game. (Especially THIS Game which caters to such Killer vs Survivor violence)
It's not IRL issues said or DID in the past, it's not physical, you can easily walk away from it. More easily than you can walk away from things IRL. YOUR absurdity over a game is your issues. Deal with it like an adult. If you dislike something from viewing. Bow out. It's way more simplified than bringing it up on a forum, noone here is going to do anything to fix Your issues. Because it is a Video Game.
Or the alternative is to realize victims of sexual assaults could be affected by this and have enough empathy to realize that the only thing that you miss out on by not teabagging and humping is that you aren't acting like an arse to other people. But if showing empathy is beyond you then you do you.
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@IIITweedleIII said:
Some of you never been through the days of OG HALO, and it shows. 😝
Killer can't tbag the same way as Survivor. But it's the same essence. But as Survivor say "take your humps and move on".
Kind of the same energy here as saying "Some of you have never been through the 1950s and 1960s when making racist jokes was just jokes and it shows".
Just because people behaved worse in the past isn't a justification for continuing with the same abhorrent behaviour.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3803290#Comment_3803290
You can agree with whoever you want. It’s not going to change the fact that Killers are not being handheld when they slug since they have to actively play well in order to first slug the second to last Survivor and catch the last Survivor before they can either pick up their teammate or their teammate picks themself up if they’re properly prepared to counter the slugging.
There’s no double standard here because hatch rewards failure and slugging rewards success. Is hatch necessary? Yes it is and I’m not arguing against it or for its removal. It’s just a necessary evil for the health of the game.
No problem, that doesn't change that Killers get 'handheld' as well if we're going to use that terminology and it's a double standard but we can agree to disagree.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3803212#Comment_3803212
Slugging is not handholding since the Killer has to work for it and play well in order to get any use out of it. There’s no handholding since the Killer is actively playing well to take advantage of the Slug. They also take a risk in losing the slug since the slug might have perks to crawl away faster and pick themselves up or get picked up by their teammate.
Whereas Hatch is a reward for the final Survivor for failing at all of their main objectives and all they need to do is get lucky to find it first or bring in an offering to tell them where it’s going to be. Slugging is not circumventing game design at all since the devs design Killers like Twins, Oni and Hillbilly with abilities that shine when Slugging. They also have perks like Knockdown and Third Seal to promote it.
Just because something is an intended mechanic and has been in the game for a long time doesn’t mean it’s not handholding.
I agree with @hermitkermit . If you don't want to admit it's hand-holding then that's fine. However, it is a double standard to say 'x' mechanic is hand holding but then not apply the same standards to both roles. Killers get mechanics all the time that could be called hand holding (eg the plethora of aura reading perks and the proposed changes to Distortion could qualify as hand holding for Killers as Killers should be capable of using game sense to find survivors). If you're going to call one side using the intended game mechanics hand holding then, to be fair, you should also apply it to the mechanics that hold the Killer's hands as well.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3803164#Comment_3803164
The hatch is handholding because it rewards Survivors for failing at their objectives. Slugging is not handholding because the Killer had to play well by find the Survivors and out play them while hitting them twice in order to down them.
It’s fair because the Killer worked for the Slug and 4K while the Survivor failed and yet still get another hand out to keep playing.
It is hand-holding though. The hatch has been an objective for forever in DbD and is part of intended game design. Slugging for the 4K is circumventing that game design and giving the Killer more time to find the last survivor when the Killer may not have found the last survivor if the Killer had used a hook. If it were within the same time period as a hook there would have been more validity to your argument but it's not; it's deliberately drawing the match out to make it easier for the Killer. That's hand-holding.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3803108#Comment_3803108
It is a handholding mechanic. While I agree it’s necessary in order to give the final Survivor a goal in order to keep going, it still rewards them for failing.
My issue isn’t the hatch. My issue is the double standard that people who only play one side of the game have when it comes to their opponents. It’s wrong for Killers to want a 4k and use legit game play strategies that have been sanctioned by the developers over and over but it’s okay for themselves to use whatever strategies they want, regardless of how their opponents feel while saying “we’re just playing the game”.How is the hatch hand-holding but being able to slug the second last survivor and look for the last survivor for a longer time than if a hook were utilized not hand holding for the Killer?
The hatch is a game mechanic and the Killer has a greater than 50 percent chance to find it since the Killer doesn't have to stop and hide.
I don't really think it's fair to call the hatch hand-holding for one side but not call slugging for the 4K with the second last survivor hand-holding.
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Go Already
Every time a survivor crouches more than once in a second in the exit gates while the Killer is within 30 metres the exit gates are blocked for 5/6/7 seconds per crouch for the crouching survivor.
Alternatively, Survivors could have the same perk entitled 'Just Let Me Do My Hatch Challenge'
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@RoastedGarlic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799409#Comment_3799409
I only said that they were a thing I didnt say they happened every match. I only brought them up because the lang is trying to pretend long chases don't exist at all anymore on new maps which is bologna and they know it.
this all entirely off topic anyway back to discussing the much needed for soloq distortion nerf. Praise be no more useless rats.
The proposed Distortion change is a terrible change. First of all, if someone is running an aura reading build they'll have LP equipped more often than not. That means that Distortion will be inactive from the start of the match with the first use being ineffectual.
The proposed change isn't happening in a vacuum either. Zanshin Tactics will be tried a lot and anytime it is the supposed recharge will be used as soon as a survivor drops a pallet rendering the perk even more ineffectual.
The proposed change does nothing for people who won't participate either. People will just hide in lockers if they're making a hatch play and saying that not having Distortion will let them be spotted when switching lockers is not rooted in reality as lockers spawn close together and there are clumps of two or three lockers.
I don't believe the 'Distortion is OP' discourse either. Any perks effectiveness has to be measured in terms of 'does this provide an advantage that's far more substantial than any other perk'. I don't see or know of any data that suggests Distortion provides more of an effect than an Exhaustion perk or gen repair, etc. I also don't see that many players who play more than a modicum of survivor complaining about it; the main complaints seem to come from mainly one-sided Killer players who don't like counter play to aura reading perks (and some of whom have talked about 'survivor hand holding' while complaining about having to find Survivors without aura reading perks and don't realize the irony in those statements -- not really relevant; just a peeve of mine). If Distortion were so incredibly effective I would have expected to see an increase in Discordance, Surveillance and Spies in the Shadows which counter Distortion and provide additional info to boot but I don't.
The proposed change also doesn't address the issues with two Survivors both going for hatch plays that is essentially holding the game hostage by not trying to complete the match and is super frustrating for Killer players in that situation. Locker switching is commonly used and as lockers hide auras that makes Distortion irrelevant in that situation.
The supposed lack of progress situation you're trying to discuss and the hiding issue can be addressed by a single change that has nothing to do with Distortion; give idle crows to players that haven't healed, worked on a gen or been in a chase for x minutes. That would be a better change. As it is the proposed nerf to Distortion does nothing but render stealth gameplay unfeasible (and it is a legitimate playstyle that people to do enjoy), doesn't actually fix any issues and just gives us another garbage perk to scroll past when choosing our load out.
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@RoastedGarlic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3799368#Comment_3799368
there is only one map where i would agree with you and that is haddonfield, every other map you can absolutely run 5 gen chases.
The only way you can run a 5 gen chase is if the Killer is both hopelessly outmatched and has no sense of the meta game. Any Killer that has figured out when to drop a chase and how to catch survivors out of position won't fall for that; they'll catch survivors out of position, kill them, and then kill the strongest chaser when all of their friends are dead and the best outcome the last survivor can hope for is a hatch escape.
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I am and it does make Killer super frustrating. I hope it gets fixed right away.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795265#Comment_3795265
I did the math. Its important what you leave out. 20% Killer winrate has 0% Survivor winrate, because it has an 80% draw/tie rate. The average among all permutations is 22%S/28%D/50%K. If you (favorably) split draws 50-50, that still yields 36%S/64%K. If you throw out draws, it comes to ~31%S/~69%K. So Survivor loses about a 20% multiplicative expected winrate and Killer gains it. Draws/Ties existing always shows the flaw of the sub 60% winrate discussion. I shorthand to 60% killrate = 60% winrate because it is the argument most favorable to what I am arguing against. The reality is Survivor winrates are much more dire ATM.
Now technically, the flaw of simply using all permutations is that some are rarer, and some are more common. This treats all with equal merit. IME, 2K+2E is the most rare result, and 3K is the most common result. If we look at the permutation with most 2K+2Es, that is the 20K/80D subset. If we look at the permutation with most 3Ks, that is the 20S/80K subset. If these were the only 2 subsets, we would have an average 10%S/40%D/50%K, which still means Survivors only win 10% of the time, or 16.6% if we throw out Draws/Ties. So while Killer's winrate can range from 20-80%, Survivor's winrate can similarly only range from 0-40%.
TL:DR Survivor winrate isn't (100%-Killer winrate), because Draws/Ties exist (2K+2E). Killer's winrate may range from 20-80%, but Survivor's winrate can only range from 0-40% within the same conditions.
That is the part that always seems to get ignored by people arguing that a 50 percent Killer win rate means the game is balanced. Draws exist. If the Killer has a 50 percent win rate then any draws have to come out of the other 50 percent which, by definition, means survivors have less than a 50 percent win rate.
It's not 2021 anymore; it's 2024. The game is Killer sided now and Killer is the easier role. BHVR literally balances for the game to be Killer sided. I'm not arguing that's a bad thing; I'm pretty ambivalent about DbD being a bit sided towards either role as long as it's still possible to have fun. However, the mental gymnastics from some people arguing that DbD isn't Killer sided right now is amazing.
And, instead of acknowledging that being the underdog role which is currently Survivor may come with issues that need to be investigated because a game needs to be fun for both sides, some people try to argue that Killer is the underdog instead of the game being literally balanced by intention towards favouring the Killer and Killer being at it's strongest point and easiest ever since the game was released.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795373#Comment_3795373
It's the glaring issue with perks as a balance mechanism for mechanics. You have no way of knowing what situations you're about to face, but those situations are balanced by perks in solo queue. If you run an anti-tunnel build and get 4k'd by a Plaything/Penti/whatever build, obviously you should have psychically known to run an anti-totem build. Or vice versa. And if your teammate got tunneled out, you should have run BT+Babysitter or something. The proposed solution is always to travel back in time and equip the perfect loadout in the lobby. It's stupid. I can't help but think the players who make those suggestions are highly inexperienced one side players.
That's my impression as well.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795335#Comment_3795335
The worst part is none of these issues are being officially acknowledged by BHVR, so we might be stuck with them for a very long time.
I really, really hope we don't have to wait for a long time as using sound is one of the skill expressions of Killer especially when mind games are being played. Not being able to use sound significantly diminishes the fun of playing Killer imo.
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@Royval said:
playing spirit is very frustrating and honestly a chore right now
It definitely would be. Unless you're using Dried Cherry Blossom I can't see Spirit being that much but miserable frustration if you can't hear survivor footsteps. I might start equipping Stridor and see if that helps with tracking.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795325#Comment_3795325
I always go back to your point about tools and knowledge when it comes to tunneling. How would the average player know what to do? How would even a high MMR survivor know what to do if they didn't pay attention to competitive play? Because unless a survivor intrinsically knows to lead chase as far away from available gens as possible, and ALL THREE teammates know to blast gens with perfect efficiency during that time, there's no feedback in-game about how to counter it. There's no replay system, no "here's how it looks in this upper skill bracket". The killer has all the tools to make the game as competitive as they want, and solo players are at the mercy of the matchmaking algorithm and sheer RNG. It's (to me), a ludicrous design decision.
So what happens? You have one player running after the killer and player being tunneled, because they don't know any better even after 1000 hours. You have one player on a side quest doing god knows what. And the poor 4th player with 5000 hours is slamming gens frustrated because they have zero agency or influence on the outcome of this trial. It shouldn't be possible for a portion of the playerbase to play a PVP game for an hour and have no influence on the outcome of half those trials.
Exactly. If I'm on a gen and somebody's hooked on the other side of the map and is reaching the point where they're going to second stage if I don't leave right then is somebody else going for the save? Are they hiding from the Killer? Is someone with Reassurance nearby? Will someone else pick up my gen and finish it if I leave? If I stay on the gen will the hooked person now suicide on hook since they second staged on one hook if nobody else rescued them and they're not expecting any rescue now or they don't want to be tunnelled straight off hook since they're now an easy target for removal? I have no idea, no way to find out and that's a very common occurrence.
Or, if the Killer is setting up a three gen and the other survivors haven't noticed it, how do I call attention to that? I have no means to do so.
A common refrain on these forums to try to deflect from whether or not there are game mechanics issues is that survivors are bad. It's a meritless argument in my opinion because if, after all this time, the majority of people can't reach it the problem doesn't lie with the people but rather either the systems, training and/or expectations.
It's very frustrating as you said.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/426446/sound-issues
Footstep noises, flashbang noises, and scratch marks, are all having problems now.
Okay so it's not just my headphones then. It sucks because I track primarily by sound but I'll have to live with it until it gets fixed. Thanks
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@Paternalpark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794968#Comment_3794968
I appreciate the more personalized response friend but I think what I'm saying is being misconstrued.
I have noticed that survivors are just not great at this game after how long it's been around. Dbd has it's whale gamers and then the casual whom play for a bit then uninstall. The ratio these days is far worse, less player retention so less skilled players to face or team up with? Idk
I hope I'm not low mmr after having more than 500 hrs as a Bubba main. I got a 50 killstreak when I started playing killer and very soon after that the survivors were competent. The swf are a challenge which I throughly enjoy vsing as usually ends up with 1 gen left or a 2k. I can count on my hand how many 4 man escapes were had.
I absolutely have no issues with killer players slugging and coming back to hook. Tunneling is different as then the challenge is watered down dramatically and survivors can just stick on gens if I'm campy.
Also I dont blame Killers for being smart and effective, that's what keeps things interesting. My grievance is that survivor isn't worth the time anymore. No matter how well you play, your tm can always screw up everything so fast that it's just not worth queuing up.
The parallel is there as well, where everyone does so well that I can sit on a gen not interact with the killer and escape.
My opinion is that it's more accurate to say solo queue does not have the necessary tools and is too hard to coordinate. If you have an expectation that 80 percent or 90 percent of a group fails to reach (not just in DbD but everywhere) the issue is more likely the expectation or the tools or training people have to reach that expectation.
After your 50 game win streak you were most likely at or just about at the soft cap with Bubba. It's quite possible you are at a very high MMR now with Bubba. As such, massacres like the ones you showed us could be quite common as if you have a much larger pool of 1600 MMR players while you are 1900 or higher. That's statistically a less than one percent chance for the 1600 MMR survivors to win but if that's all there is to match you with that's all there is.
I agree completely that BHVR is currently not valuing survivor's time. I find myself taking breaks because Killer is too easy overall so I fall into just memeing which gets boring and makes the situation worse. I don't mind camping where they hit the unhooker or slugging either as I feel like I get to play the game. With tunnelling solo queue doesn't have the coordination, cohesion or enough knowledge of what their teammates are doing to effectively counter it on a consistent basis and coordinated try hard SWFs are a small portion of the game. That could be what's leading to less player retention as I've noticed my Killer queues are lengthy now at times of day when they used to be instant while my Survivor queues, which were lengthy when I first started, are now pretty much instant implying that as opposed to before we have too few survivors queuing. I understand: it sucks to go into a match where you don't have the tools to do anything and get a pre-ordained outcome.
A lot of the miscontruals in this thread come from, at first glance, somebody would assume you're playing Survivor and they don't realize you're the Killer unless they examine the screenshot and see you're playing Bubba. I know you probably realize that; I'm just throwing it in to help clear up any confusion for anyone who could use it.
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@Nazzzak said:
I've been bringing Exponential a fair bit lately
I've been getting a fair amount of value with it lately as well.
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@DaddyPyramid said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794681#Comment_3794681
and what exact "data" proved that tunneling and camping is still high during peak meta? do you have any proof of that or are you just trying to gaslight more
A BHVR dev stated so
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794881#Comment_3794881
I see streamers, big ones, famous ones, loose plenty, be it as killer or as survivor. Just not consistently and never a stomp.
The only part they don't represent is the low MMR.
Not being able to assume anything just mean not being able to do anything about it as there is not frame of reference to work with.
Thankfully, I don't agree. There is hope in learning to play better. (And probably to prevent hook-suicide but that's a different matter.)
Okay, while if you feel that after not knowing the OP, never having seen the OP's games, having no data to go on other than the OP being Devotion 9, nor having any idea what the MMR is like in their region, the tactics of the Killers they used and not even the Killers themselves you feel you can say 'skill issue' with definite certainty go ahead.
That doesn't seem very reasonable or logical but, hey, you do you.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794855#Comment_3794855
Everyone can look at a great many matches from experienced streamers (killers/survivors/US/EU) and see that this kind of massacre doesn't really happen. Not often anyway.
And streamer matches are looking like my own (which makes sense given how many thousands of hours I have in the game).
That's why I believe that if they have consistently bad matches, they can only be at low MMR. (a.k.a the aptly named low MMR hell)
And that's why, as annoying it may be for them, I don't believe it's a problem that can be solved.
Note that BHVR's own statistics show that there isn't that great a difference of escape between SWFs and solo-Q. (Which, again, is consistent with my own experience.)
There is of course the alternative possibility being that all this is an exaggeration but that's not something I'd like to consider.
They could very easily be at low MMR. With Devotion 9, though, I'm more inclined to think they're at least average. However, I doubt the streamers who are consistently doing well are at 1600 MMR either and more likely at 2000 to 2200 MMR where they're regularly playing against people that have no chance against them.
None of that, though, is indicative of the game overall or of anyone's personal experience. That's the point I'm making. As an example, in VHS, the Monster role at very high levels of experience was actually pretty good. Did that invalidate how horrible the experience was and biased towards Teens the role was prior to achieving that level? Of course not and it killed the game.
What I'm essentially saying is that we can't assume anything with any definite certainty from the OP's post nor can we assume, regardless of the OP's skill level high or low, there isn't an actual issue in the OP's games. For example, Teens quite often cried 'skill issue' in VHS to obscure the fact learning Monster was miserable beyond belief due to the huge disparity in skill floors. While not to the same degree this phenomena also exists in DbD.
Attempting to dismiss the OP's experience isn't taking that into account. We don't know if there is an issue or not.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794840#Comment_3794840
Yeah, WoO is the most common perk that survivors run. Yet, escape rates seem to be stable. If it's run by the majority of survivors and escape rates are still between 40 - 50%, then it can't be damaging the game's balance.
That's my thinking about it as well. Also, at 30 percent pick rate I'm sure BHVR has looked into it. If they see a huge variance they'll nerf it but I haven't seen a huge advantage in terms of games won in either my Survivor or Killer games from using it.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794828#Comment_3794828
People are more or less the same everywhere in the world. But yes, it's obviously possible to have a different experience. Skill, after all, is a factor.
I don't play in the beginner's MMR range. Most of my killers are probably in the average with my Nurse being placed higher (given how my opponents are playing).
That kind of massacre however, I can only imagine against incompetent low-MMR survivors and spineless players giving up at the slightest hurdle.
But their sort having trouble with the game is all fine. Killer has always been easier at low MMR. It's on the higher tiers that it becomes more difficult.
The game takes time to learn. That's a good thing.
The other possibilities though is that they have more tunnelling in their games, MMR in their region favours higher MMR killers versus lower MMR survivors, or they're at the soft cap and better than you at survivor. That's why implying it's a skill issue would be akin to gaslighting them about their experience.
As tunnelling gives a difference in win rates that makes pre 6.1 DH look healthy, win rates would be different depending on the MMR population distribution, and anyone at the soft cap can face people 300+ MMR points higher which gives a less than a one percent chance of actually winning the game the OP could be facing any or all of those situations. We don't know.
The only thing we do know is that the OP is having a miserable time and is frustrated. No other assumptions can be made as we don't know their personal experience and experiences will vary greatly in a game with as many variables as DbD. It might be they're low MMR; it might be they're high MMR. We don't have any idea and saying 'skill issue' on video game forums is quite often used to obfuscate and divert from actual huge balance issues quite frequently. It also denies that, as a player, the OP is having a miserable time and, from a business perspective, that always should be a concern.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794817#Comment_3794817
I don't think that is the problem for most people. Most complaints seem to state in some way or another, that it makes playing survivor too easy. That's the core of the issue. Even though WoO hasn't really impacted the game's balance, people don't like it because they feel that their opponent is able to equip a perk and turn their brain off, whilst they have to work hard.
This sentiment will prevail until the perk is completely gutted. Even if BHVR added a cooldown to the perk, it would still enable survivors to loop more efficiently. So this sentiment would continue regardless.
Some people do feel that way; that's true. If the perk doesn't give a huge increase in escape rates when compared to other perks though it's not overpowered.
It's completely possible it is overpowered; the only group that would have the data to know that is BHVR though. If it does, they'll change it. Personally, I feel the item perks along with Built to Last and/or Streetwise are more impactful on a match but there's also a counter to that; Franklin's.
WoO also has Hex: Third Seal and a bunch of other blindness perks as counters as well if people think it's too much of an issue and Blindness also counters Fogwise, Alert, etc.
My main point, however, is that unless it's tied to a much greater escape rate than other perks bring it's not overpowered.
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I
@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794814#Comment_3794814
That's a feat in itself.
Over the past few years I've only witnessed this (as killer) maybe 3 or 4 times. It was always always the result of a major f-up from the survivors.
It has never happened to me (as survivor), even when I've tried to show DbD to new players (0 hours) which were desperately bad at the game.
Seriously, how???
For a game with millions of players that is played on multiple continents it is completely reasonable to assume other people will have different experiences than someone else's and people who are complaining due to frustration because their experiences are miserable will tend to generalize.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794731#Comment_3794731
You can't know exactly what pallets have been used just like you can't know exactly where survivors are. It's called "game sense'' for a reason. WoO is literally the exact same thing as aura perks on killers.
I don't feel aura perks are overpowered either.
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@CLHL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794712#Comment_3794712
Once you get to the point where you consider that the only way to win is to play this way, nothing will make you go back. Stages where the gen regression is weak (like the current one) create new tunnelers, but stages where it's strong (like the kick meta) don't change anything, because everyone is aware that it will not last forever.
You start strategically tunnelling to turn around games that seem lost, but you end up doing it in most games. And when the time comes, you will come to the conclusion that it is better to do it from the start, because you can't tell if your opponent will give you the chance.
The issue though is that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy (or you just arrived at the soft cap which is a different situation). MMR doesn't care how you won; it only cares if you did win. As such, if you start to tunnel and camp because you're losing a match then MMR will start to place you against tougher and tougher opponents. This leads to a self-perpetuating cycle where, because tunnelling is so disproportionately effective, you're now in a situation where you feel like you have to tunnel but that's not the issue. The issue is that you could have had a win rate of over 50 percent if you hadn't tunnelled and would have eventually gotten to where you are now (and your games would have been more enjoyable since your chase skills and macro skills would have been at that level as well) but tunnelling was a short cut to winning games you wouldn't have won if you hadn't tunnelled. It's an easy go to but the alternative is if you're comfortable with losing some games, which people should be in a multiplayer video game, is simply not to tunnel and camp and let your skills develop naturally.
If you're just at the soft cap that's a different situation because of how a soft cap works. If you face a player who had 300 more MMR than you then you statistically have a less than one percent chance to win. Although BHVR regularly matches below the soft cap at 200 points difference (which is roughly a 25 percent chance to win) at the soft cap you can get games matched against 300, 500 or 600 MMR points higher opponent. At that point you might as well AFK if you're looking to win and not to see if there's anything you can learn as the match's outcome is practically preordained. That's a niche situation but it could give you the impression you need to tunnel as well but that's only in that niche situation. If you got there by tunnelling, however, it would be more enjoyable to not tunnel and get out of the soft cap as quickly as possible so your games have much better matchmaking.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794534#Comment_3794534
It's definitely overpowered without a shadow of a doubt. I just gave 4 reasons on why it's overpowered and those points still stand. Killers are told to stop relying on aura reading perks and use "game sense" to locate survivors. I say stop relying on WoO and use "game sense" to recognize tiles before you get to them, predict where pallets will be in said tiles and pay attention to where your teammates are looping and what pallets have been used.
It is factually an overpowered perk. It literally makes me at the very least 2x better at looping. And when I hit a survivor who uses WoO with the Amanita Toxin add on for Huntress, its blatantly obvious that some of them rely on this perk way to heavily.
The problem with Pain Rez is that it's not overpowered at all on weak killers but dramatically overpowered on Nurse and Blight. Certain killers being significantly better than others heavily skews the view on killer perks. But all survivors are the same so there perks don't have to take into account for that.
Not only would I say it's overpowered but I say without a doubt in my mind; it is hands, down bar none the strongest perk in the entire game for survivors. The only thing that was ever stronger was original Object Of Obsession.
I disagree WOO is OP as you can't tell who is using a pallet where if you can't see them and can't tell where they are. It's a huge aid for solo queue in that sense. I find a Commodious toolbox with double charge add-ons and Built to Last to be much stronger.
For Pain Res as a side tangent, I'd prefer it went back to 25 percent each hook but deactivated upon the death of a survivor as opposed to 15 percent each individual hooked.
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Once you consider how MMR works you'll realize that it is you who is forcing yourself into slugging, tunnelling and camping. MMR doesn't care if you won by 12 hooks, by alternating hooks, by tunnelling or if you camped and tunnelled. It only cares about did you kill the Survivors.
As tunnelling and camping is a disproportionately effective strategy that has a low skill floor to implement and a high skill floor to counter as well as requiring a level of cohesion and coordination that is frankly unrealistic to expect solo queues (which form the majority of survivors) to have on a consistent basis using it gives you wins that you wouldn't have had if you hadn't camped or tunnelled.
Since it's a win MMR puts you against tougher opponents. In order to combat this the best option is just to not camp or tunnel and, if you lose a game, you lose. It's to be expected in a PvP game you'll lose at times and it's not a big deal.
Unfortunately, if you have been tunnelling and camping for awhile, the only way to get out of it is to reset your MMR by not tunnelling and camping and lose a lot until your MMR places you at a point where you can win by spreading hooks. That's a miserable position to be in but it's not survivors that got you there; it was tunnelling and camping. That doesn't change how painful it is to break out of that cycle though which is unfortunate but the only way to get you back to an MMR that overall will probably prove more enjoyable.
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I find OTR to be more useful. It provides utility that DS doesn't and a common theme among the tunnellers I've encountered is that their chase skills are not up to par for their MMR bracket. It's like old NOED where you could always tell a Killer had NOED because they would be terrible at chase until the endgame. With the tunnellers I've seen (once again my experience) since tunnelling gives such a disproportionate and overly effective approach for minimal effort it's a crutch that carried them to a higher MMR than they should be at. The tunnellers I've seen are overall not good at locating survivors nor are they good at chasing overall. As such, 60 seconds is too limiting and it only gives a 4 second stun. 80 seconds is a better duration and, in case there is no tunnelling, the silence and protection versus aura reading is always useful in case you encounter the Killer again through simple bad luck.
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@CLHL said:
The vast majority of tunnelers radically change their way of playing as soon as they believe that the match is already lost for them. They will switch to the “At least I'll take this one” mentality. Obviously, the fact that two or three gens can be finished in the first chase does not help. It doesn't matter if the game then slows down and the killer manages to turn the situation around, the key to why he plays the way he does is the gen completion. There are even a ton fo killer who play "normal" for the whole match but suddenly decide to triple tunnel someone. The faster the game progresses and the more overwhelmed the killer feels, the more he will tunnel.
You can say that's the vast majority and that might be why you tunnel but that's not my experience. My experience is that the majority of tunnellers tunnel right from the start. Of course we can only speak to our own individual experiences but it's hyperbolic to say the vast majority tunnel due to gen completion or at the start without prefacing it with a 'in my experience'.
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The soft cap makes win streaks (and loss streaks) possible and expected. Say, for example, you have a person with a 300 MMR point difference after the soft cap. So, assuming the soft cap is 1600 and the Elo system works like the other Elo systems, a player at 1600 MMR has less than a 1 percent chance to win when placed against a 1900 MMR player. The 1900 MMR player has less than a 1 percent chance to win against a 2200 MMR player.
As the number of players at higher MMR become even rarer the higher you go you have a situation where someone in the top percentile would win against 99 percent of the population but would also lose 99 percent of the time against someone in the top tenth of a percentile of players.
As the number of players at a soft cap would be higher the further down you go and rarer the higher you go up anyone at the soft cap probably has a lower win rate than the average and anyone significantly above the soft cap will have a much higher win rate than the average.
That's not a bug of having a soft cap; it's how the system is designed and what happens with a soft cap. The only alternative is a queue lasting up to an hour for the highest rated MMR players (as seen with Dowsey when MMR was first introduced) which would drive away all of the players at that level.
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@legiondoctor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793742#Comment_3793742
I hope your data also shows that killers have to get a down in 30 seconds or else they be behind. I also hope your data also shows gens get done faster then it has ever done before.
Tunneling is more efficient to combat toolboxes and make more pressure
I play survivor and i noticed more Tunneling after gen regression you guys gutted
I doubt BHVR forms a conclusion and then tries to get data to support the conclusion as BHVR seems far more on the ball than to make such an obvious error. You have to get data and then form the conclusion from the data. If that's what you feel is accurate the data will reflect that overall and, if not, then it's not supported.
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@MrMori said:
Even if gens took 120 seconds, people that gravitate toward hardtunneling will always hardtunnel. It's not just about getting a "fair match" for them, it's purely about winning. And tunneling causes you to win more games. I think the only real solution to fix tunneling is to balance around hooks, not kills, so somehow you're rewarded equally for continuing to chase the guy you're already chasing, instead of bolting it across the map to tunnel someone off hook.
I agree there should be balancing around hooks but we have an issue with the MMR system in that it's not an advancement mechanism; it's a mechanism to theoretically ensure you're adequately placed into a match. Emblems was an advancement mechanism that did encourage multiple hooks but it's only used for BP now.
That's why I think the focus has to be on overhauls to game mechanics if the MMR system is to be kept.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794052#Comment_3794052
It's not about losing the game. It's about the cost of losing the game. It's about losing being not fun — and people being able to actively contribute to it.
DbD makes it clear that you lose the game = you are beneath you opponents and you deserve to be ridiculed and literally forced to stay in the endgame until the victor decides they're done gloating. In many games, it's not enough for players to just leave the gates — they stay, either noise spamming or tbagging. It's not enough for players to just hook someone and be done with it — they need to go back and forth, not letting already downed survivors go from the game they've lost. Nobody wants to be on the receiving end.
The sad thing is (and why people say this game is "survivor-sided") this issue was partially fixed for survivors: staying too close near hooks now grants a free kobe, there is Unbreakable against slugging, DS against tunneling, and even a limited amount of times the Killer can regress gens (which prevents them from stalling the game for hours). But, if gens are done and the gates are powered, Killers have to contend with either a walk of shame to the exit gate for a final spit in the face, or basically waste time they could have spent playing other matches, waiting for the timer to run out or for the players to leave. In addition to actual issue with maps that are basically a safe pallet haven for survivors and hell for Killers, it's not surprising that Killers would consider this game survivor-sided. And I find it hard to disagree because my games as a Survivor have been much less stressful compared to playing as Killer — in most cases, I knew that even if I lose, I'll be out of the game and ready to go next. I won't have to stick around for the endgame chat or until every survivor leaves the gate.
The "Just break pallets" or "Just tab out and watch some YouTube" advice is kinda part of the problem: as someone has already rightfully stated, if you're encouraged to tab out of the game you're supposed to spend time in, this is bad game design and it would only led to frustration piling up.
I think that either issue with sore winners holding the game hostage for Killers would have changed their perspective. For instance, giving Killers an incentive to do something else during EGC (if survivors have powered the gates and Killers have no endgame perks to get a chance) — either increasing the amount of bloodpoints they get for breaking pallets and walls during the EGC or offering them an alternative activity. For instance, the Killers could be given the choice to go to the Void dimension to farm points with spirits or to pick a random challenge for the next trials that will increase their BPs— yes, it means they lose their final chance to hook survivors, but they get more points without BM. Heck, even scattering small surprises (like with the Entity racoon thing) or initiating glyph hunting would have been a good touch — it would have given the Killer something interesting to do instead of trying to come up with the ways to occupy themselves until survivors finally decide to leave.
If you're saying people should not BM and it's a terrible thing to gloat at the exit gates I 100% agree. It's childish. It shouldn't happen. I have stated multiple times that BHVR should, in my opinion, issue a statement regarding good sportsmanship and how to follow good sportsmanship and teabagging, while it is viewed by many as harmless, does not change the fact that many people view it as the digital equivalent of a middle finger and that should be respected. I think a significant chunk of the us vs them discourse would disappear (not a majority but a significant chunk) if survivors stopped teabagging as a taunt.
However, that doesn't change the fact that Killers have access to tactics that give a disproportionate advantage for the effort and have a disproportionate skill floor. They are two different issues.
Teabagging and wasting time at the Killer's exit gate grates on me. Unfortunately, a lot of people do it and now we also have humping on the Killer side which I also find annoying and grating. However, the people doing it are specifically trying to annoy you so I just ignore them now if I see it on the Killer side. If I see a survivor doing it while playing Survivor games and the Killer did not camp or tunnel I make sure to tell the Killer gg, gl next match or something similar.
As I don't camp or tunnel when I play I don't experience that much BM to be honest if I win or if I lose. It does happen still but not frequently. I see it a lot more in games where the Killer is tunnelling and camping. The survivors do stick around at the gates so I come over and take a few hits for BP if I'm down anyway but really I just do it to save time (another option is breaking walls). I also almost never get hateful messages in chat. I'm not saying any of these behaviours (gloating and messages in chat) is justified (it's not) but people that have had a miserable experience are more likely to vent their frustration and, unfortunately, that happens more frequently online than it would in real life.
If you lose a game, though, it might help to keep in mind that it doesn't reflect on you one way or another in real life. You lost a video game; it's not a personal attack nor anything that you'll care about or remember in the future. Losing a video game is trivial. It is annoying and grating to deal with sore winners and your frustration at that is completely justified; sore winners suck. and they should show sportsmanship instead. But it's not a reflection on you in the slightest.
(Also, I like the idea of activities for Killers to gain increased BP once the gates are open. It's still annoying that there are sore winners but there might be less of them if they realized that, instead of annoying the Killer, they're giving the Killer increased opportunities for more BP. Good idea).
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@crogers271 said:
Simply put, it doesn't feel that good to win a game you were supposed to win in the first place. It's not the players themselves, its just a defense mechanism we have as humans.
This is enhanced by the 4v1 nature. It creates a trick where it seems like the killer player is overcoming the odds and thus winning is a great accomplishment. To have that turned around and be like 'no, you were always the favorite to win' is pretty deflating.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793959#Comment_3793959
From what I've seen in forums and discussions, many killer mains believe that the issue is that killers aren'tgoodbut that survivors are justbadI agree with this and its one of my pet peeves on the forum. I'd add this is usually accompanied by that when the killer loses it not because the survivors were better, but because the game/map was broken. It's strange that's its so hard to say: 'I'm good at the game, but sometimes I meet people who beat me'.
I agree with both you and @hermitkermit It's okay to lose games; it happens. It's okay to not be the best in the world; it's a video game. There are far more important things in life to worry about than a video game. However, even suggesting that a tactic might be broken or the odds might have been in their favour to some people makes them incensed. It's not a personal insult but all of a sudden a bunch of people act like it's the Age of the Vikings and people need to turn to a holmgang to restore their honor.
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@CautionaryMary said:
Even though, I agree that the game has objectively been harder for survivor and easier (not completely handholding as others think) for killer. I wouldn't say that Behavior hates either side, I mean they need both for the game to function.
Without survivors and killers, they wouldn't have a functional game. Even though Behavior has made some changes that make me scratch my noggin, I wouldn't consider them to hate or be biased to either side. Their reasoning to make it a 60% KR, while buffing survivor in more QOL updates highlights Behavior wanting to make the game more competitive (even if some people believe the game should be more casual, which I agree with).
Yes, Behavior has been buffing killers whether specific to the killer or with QOL improvements like kicking a gen or pallet faster, they also introduced a HUD mechanic and anti-camp meter. They also develop perks that have undoubtably became meta for survivor —such as Finesse and the old Made For This.
This might be a hot take, but I believe Behavior cares about both roles but they're a developer at the end of the day and will make questionable decisions. However, they do take in feedback and change things accordingly from me playing the game for many years.
I don't think that's so much a hot take at the end but an objective truth. BHVR has shown throughout the years that they care about the enjoyment of both roles which is part of the reason why things always change on both sides of the equation. Nobody can take a look at all the changes throughout the years and say BHVR is "so and so" sided unless they are biased towards a particular side themselves or so frustrated that their frustration is clouding their judgment. DbD is BHVR's livelihood and they want the game to succeed.
Sometimes questionable decisions will be made but that's completely understandable as devs are just human and humans make mistakes. Also, despite whatever decision BHVR makes somebody will always disagree about it because, well, that's the internet for you.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793578#Comment_3793578
Ad has your data, IDK, supposed WHY there's a 26% increase in tunnelling in your games?
Does it control for any confounding variables like time of day, whether you're in SWF or SoloQ, cosmetics worn, etc.?
Or are you doing the typical stat thing everyone here does and going, "wow! 58% is high for a Killer Kill Rate but 48% is low for Survivor Survival Rate even though that's close to a true 50/50 like I want and therefore, 26% of the time I get tunneled means that I get tunneled a whole lot and it's bad BHVR fix it"?
If you read my posts you would already know those answers.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793578#Comment_3793578
26% of YOUR games.
Not 26% of ALL games.
In other words, exactly what I stated in my post if you had bothered to read them and hence the reason I asked BHVR to investigate to see if it was something limited to my games or a general phenomena. Please read my posts before continuing to responde.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793587#Comment_3793587
This is all very true. If we want a fix for tunnelling period, we need to buff the things that discourage anything but tunnelling (alternate playstyles through perks even if the other side finds it annoying), and also nerf tunnelling, while also allowing Killer to have breathing room by capping how fast rounds can go.
Or in other words one of the suggestions I discussed in my original post and have restated should be the case multiple times. Reading those would probably be more fruitful than simply pinging me over and over constantly on a feedback and suggestion thread.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793582#Comment_3793582
That's a lot of assuming there, friend. I have been playing this game for about 2-3 years now and have thousands of hours, I may have joined the forums recently but I am not new to this game at all. but I guess you can't go one day without looking for a reason to discredit people who disagree with you as "just new to the forums" or "just a Killer Main" or "just doesn't play enough Survivor" or "Just a noob at DBD."
Stop flexing and start saying something that isn't just the same endless complaints Survivors have had from day one, and I will be inclined to believe you are arguing… gosh, anything here in these forums in good faith. Your hours and numbers mean nothing to me, you're still posting like someone who has never touched Killer in their life.
If you truly believe my post history and newness, or my assumed time in the game, means nothing, why even bring it up here? I didn't bring it up with you.
You're the one assuming I'm a 'Survivor main who needs hand-holding'. If you have been around for as long as you claim then you should have seen one of my posts dating back from starting in 2021 and realized that making an assumption like that is ridiculous.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793746#Comment_3793746
I play plenty of killer. Have done since 2019 so 5 years now.
I've never relied on gen regression perks. The most I've ever used is, Jolt, old Pain Res (which I stopped using after the info was taken away), or Call of Brine and Thrilling Tremors. Never all together, only one at a time.
I never intentionally tunnel or camp, because it's boring and I'm still in the mindset that 'more hooks = bigger win'. In fact I'm actively disappointed when a survivor dies on second/first hook because that's a hook I missed out out.
And yet I don't struggle to win games as killer. I'm still sitting around a 60-70% kill rate. Regardless of whether it's due to my skill or my opponents lack thereof, my MMR is clearly where it's supposed to be because I'm not artificially inflating my kill rates through crutch mechanics such as camping, tunneling, or stacking regression.
So I can't help but feel bewildered when killers, constantly, complain that "tunneling is necessary" or "regression is too weak".
MMR is a thing that exists, even if it's not perfect or consistent, it is on average in effect. It's purpose is not to be continuously inflated in order to boost your ego, it's purpose is to give you the matches you deserve. By trying too hard, you are making the game harder for yourself, that's why you "need" to camp/tunnel/stack regression.
That's been my experience as well. I started in 2021 (so three years now) and followed the advice given to me to let my skills grow organically. As such, I never used that much gen regression instead keeping it limited to one gen regression perk, no tunneling and no camping (Trapper is the only exception with both Corrupt and Deadlock to keep all my gens from blowing while I gather and set traps). My win rate on every Killer is over 60% without camping, tunnelling and minimal gen regression. Quite often I have no gen regression as it's just public matches and I find games more entertaining with chase and info perks.
So, when I hear people say about how tunnelling is necessary, etc I don't see it. I win the majority of all my games without any of those tactics. So, if tunnelling is so necessary then how come people are winning the majority of their matches without any of those tactics? It could be exactly what you said in the last sentence and, that by doing so, their MMR has been artificially inflated to the point where your chasing, information and macro skills, etc are underdeveloped for the bracket they are in and that's why it feels that way.
The only other exception I see is people that are at the soft cap because if you place a 1900 MMR person against a 1600 MMR person that person has almost no chance whatsoever. That can create the impression but that's more a flaw with having a soft cap then any need to do anything.
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You could drop Grim or Pain Res for Franklin's if it's that much of an issue and see how that works out.