TheSubstitute
TheSubstitute
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847587#Comment_3847587
If you end up in those situations and still win then the survivors were either also messing around or just bad. Simple as that. I could also play bad survivors and win by spreading hooks because the survivors are bad. Sure tunneling and camping against those survivors would be overkill but then theres the survivors that try to escape which is required as most killers.
It's a regular pattern over hundreds of games. The bottom line is that's what regular matches give as opponents. The majority of matches are not against 4 person SWFs trying to dethrone Team Eternal; they're against solos or at most 2 person SWFs and even 4 person SWFs overall die more than they escape.
There's no need to tunnel and camp in public matches unless the two circumstances I stated above are met. The game is literally designed so that Killers win more often than they lose at every level. Sure in a minority of games it might be necessary but only in those few specific examples. Most of the time it's overkill.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847567#Comment_3847567
Tunneling and camping are mainly a response to how survivors played out the game. If survivors sprint burst to a main building every time I chase them where they get to use a god vault 3 times then yes I am going to make that time back up. If survivors do their objective and are good reasonably 2 and a half gens should be done by the first chase is done against most killers. That's already dangerous territory to keep 4 survivors alive so you NEED pressure. And let me tell you something going for chases on people who don't have hook states aint it unless they're in a REALLY bad position and depending on the perks you brought.
In public matches I not only win but quite often keep survivors alive for longer than optimal to maximize pips and BP at the end. I do exactly what you're saying is dangerous and still win the majority of my public matches. This is with Killers I've played regularly for years so it's not a case of MMR settling; it's a case of how MMR is designed. I spread hooks intentionally and still win the majority of my games with a very early survivor death being the fifth hook but more typically the first death occurring at 7 to 8 hooks.
I'm not discussing comp or anything like that but, with the actual real life circumstances of public matches over the long term tunnelling and camping isn't necessary unless either of the two circumstances I already mentioned is in play. It's overkill most of the time.
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@TheArbiter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847562#Comment_3847562
Do you have any tips on commiting to a dog down? Unlike with huntress where you can flick and the hatchets move fast enough, once you commit with the dog the survivor has ample time to zigzag
When the dog reaches the end of their first chase path pressing the power button lets you pick a 2nd chase path. You can only do it once (so one initial path and one redirect) but if the Survivor, for example, dodges and then runs back over a just thrown pallet the dog can catch them.
It's sort of like redirecting with Wesker but with less payoff when you get it right.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847349#Comment_3847349
Ah there's your problem. Sure you choose to handi cap yourself by not tunneling and slugging. It's not a "delusion" when there was legit nothing someone could do better in the current position. That someone COULD have chose to play a better killer before hand or choose better perks.
Also you claim yourself as not a competent killer but then say slugging, camping and tunneling is a crutch to natural skill level? Would not taking the smartest play to win the game NOT be considered skilled? Because you can still learn to chase by tunneling and taking the option to spread hooks really isn't so much a "show of skill" more of survivors playing badly. And matter of fact is… a lot of tunneling and camping is a direct result of what survivors do. there is those games where the killer player REALLY want to just do it for the hell of it but I doubt its that often.How would you know that when you claim yourself you aren't competent enough at killer? Even in 2v8 if you chose wraith and trapper you're BEGGING for games to be 5 minutes because you get basically 0 gen pressure other than wraith which is just out classed by blight in every way.
It (tunnelling, camping) is a crutch to natural skill level and I do win most of my Killer games in public matches without tunnelling or camping. The MMR system is literally designed so that, over the long run, a Killer, competent or otherwise, will get a 60% or higher kill rate.
The only exceptions are if you just hit the soft cap but stay at the soft cap (so you're facing people who have significantly higher MMRs than you on a regular basis) or if you crutched so hard on tunnelling and camping those are the only developed skills you have. Otherwise, it is not necessary in the slightest to tunnel and camp to win the majority of your games in public matches.
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I do. Use the Search command when you're moving to far away locations to increase map mobility and use the one redirect you get on the Chase command. Just M1 people down and don't rely on her power too much other than that.
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@Massquwatt said:
I don't think the increased exposed on shoulder the burden is even worth complaining about at all. It's like everybody forgot what the perk was for. It's not meant to help YOU survive, it's meant to help the OTHER survive. You quite literally take a hook state away from someone, nothing else in the game even does that so spending a while being exposed for it? Fine by me. If it's really that huge of an issue for you just ruin vigil to cut a huge chunk of the timer.
I did run Vigil. It made no difference. Non-tunnelling Killers aren't hanging out by the hook and tunnelling Killers are proxy camping so they're at the hook before the unhooker can get away. STB is a weak perk.
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My experience has been it's useless in solo queue. The only thing that was changed was who gets a shot at hatch and who gets tunnelled out first. Albeit it was only six survivor games but Survivors bringing it made no difference in my six Killer games either. However, I don't tunnel or camp which is what this perk works against.
So, if you're discussing a 3 or 4 person SWF where everyone brings the perk against a tunnelling Killer then, sure, it probably worked. However, since solo queues make up the majority of the queues then, in most games, it feels like a dead perk slot. It's a niche perk for SWFs (similar to Camaderie where you require a coordinated SWF to actually use it effectively).
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She's underrated in my opinion but only because so many people make her sound like F tier when she's more like C minus. She's not strong at all; the search command allows her to patrol quickly and the chase redirect can catch survivors off guard but she's still weak. If anything, my first impression is she needs a buff.
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The better way to change things is replace hook states with survivor deaths for the gen speed buff. If it's based on hook states it punishes spreading hooks and rewards tunnelling. If it's based on deaths it's the inverse.
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@Jay_K said:
I understand that everyone and their mother is complaining right now "he slugged, he camped, he tunneled" however majority of the time when a survivor complains about tunneling its either just false and there wasn't any tunneling happening or its survivor induced. Now im not saying that there isn't any hardcore tunneling because of course their is but its not happening as often as everyone claims.
If you think your being tunneled every game then record your games and post them for others to view. I would think that at worst your are being "tunneled" maybe 1 or 2 games in every 10.
I think the term Tunnel has lost all meaning because its used for every little situation.
For example if i hook you, go off and hook someone else then i find you again. thats not tunneling. Thats your team not trying to take aggro for you.
Or how about i come back to hook because i can't find anyone with the aim of chasing the survivor who rescued. But they have gone stealth so my only option is to chase the recently hooked. Thats survivor induced tunneling
Or my favourite one the one just unhooked uses their Base kit BT to body block from going for the unhooker meaning the killer is forced to hit the recently hooked. Thats not tunneling thats just VERY poor gameplay by survivors because at that point your basicly saying "don't chase them go for me mr killer but im gonna call this toxic tunneling in end game".
I wish survivor mains would just get over it already and if you really want to complain that every game your being camped, slugged or tunneled then I say proove it else no one is going to believe you. If your on steam there is now a way to record your games so no excuse not to get evidence if you play steam.I get tunnelled roughly over a quarter of the time. The gaslighting on these forums on how common tunnelling actually is is kind of insane.
Here's the link to the first post (of multiple in the thread discussing the 175 games recorded one and a half years apart showing how the incidence of tunnelling has risen substantially).
@TheSubstitute said:
Here are the links to the data for those that just want to see the data and watch some mediocre Survivor play over the last couple years. DbD Survivor Game Data is from the current games. DbD Stats is from games that were about two years ago I think. The descriptions of all games show which video to look at if you want to see the video.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/EQHNXT3MT5NI/dbd-survivor-game-data.xlsx
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XVWHVOGM3952/dbd-stats.xlsx
For those of you that have the patience to read my very long post here goes.
I started an experiment because I feel that there has been a substantial decline in the quality of survivor games over the last few years and the amount of tunneling and camping has gone up substantially. Fortunately, a couple of years ago when somebody said nobody was enjoying solo survivor and I said I can’t speak for anyone else but I do the forum poster accused of me lying and being a killer main (when I’ve played Killer/Survivor 60/40 roughly for years). As such, I recorded 74 games from close to two years ago and I have a basis to make this comparison.
So what I did was recorded 100 games over the last three months so I could compare and see what the changes are. I didn’t record games during 2v8 as that was too popular and would have thrown off my basis of comparison nor did I start until after the anniversary event this year. Also if there were bugs noted such as being unable to unhook or I had to leave suddenly I did not include the session. The Excel sheets showing the stats and links to the YouTube hosting my videos are in these series of posts.
First before I start I want to clarify some definitions. Also please keep in mind that I understand that my experience is my experience and other people may have different experiences. I have an understanding of statistics and sampling so I’m not going to claim anything truly foolish like a poll out by a content creator directly applies to all regions and all MMRs in a game as large as DbD. I can only speak to my experiences.
Tunneling: This is defined as attempting to remove one survivor from the game over all others first. If survivors were swarming a Killer and someone just happened to be the first one out, or if a Killer just found a particular survivor first, that’s not tunneling. If a Killer tried to remove one survivor first but the survivors countered that’s still attempting to tunnel. The Killer just failed to do it successfully. People will also try to tunnel but just realize they’re up against a strong looper and switch to take a different person out first. That’s still tunneling. The easiest way in my opinion to judge is do they return to the hook and do they target the unhooked or the unhooker. I didn’t include it if a Survivor was specifically targeted in the endgame though.
Dbd Survivor Session 1 (youtube.com)
Auspiciously or not auspiciously depending on your point of view my first game when I started was against a tunneling Clown so you can see an example of what I consider tunneling in Survivor Session One in the first game.
Camping: This is defined as staying around the hook and the returning to the hook to hit either the unhooked person (also tunneling) or the unhooker (not tunneling). If the camping was after all gens were done I did not include it.
Slugging for the 4K: This was defined as trying to slug all survivors left to either complete the 4K to minimize Hatch chances or slugging at the very beginning to just knock all survivors on the ground to either bleed them out or hook them all at the same time to minimize any chances of Hatch.
As a sidenote if you do watch my videos please note I’m not a content creator so don’t expect editing or commentary. Two of my videos have managed to reach the dizzying heights of low double digit views (but less than 20 for each) so don’t expect too much. I’m also average as a survivor. I’m not claiming anything else but as that would put me in mid MMR my experiences are more likely to be similar to the majority of the player base as opposed to a comp survivor that would be in top MMR.
For the current sessions all the videos showing this are title Survivor Session (Number) and there were 20 sessions to get 100 games.
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Wraith is really weak compared to most Killers especially if you're using audio to track. Or even just looking for his Predator style shimmer.
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I hated this idea of no penalties before the DC bots. Now that the bots are here I'm good with it. The bot will often give more value than a survivor who doesn't want to be in the game and will either give up on hook or otherwise try to get killed. Letting people leave now as they want to may improve the game quality for those who stay.
Hard no to in-game voice chat though. Chat wheel yes; in-game chat no
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When you said 'people still claim the game is Killer sided' did you make a mistake while typing and put in Killer instead of Survivor?
Edit: I'm genuinely asking as your post would sound more consistent if you did make a typing error in your first sentence. Right now it sounds like you're saying both Killer is hard but then escaping as a Survivor is hard but it's easy to do well as Killer.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836604#Comment_3836604
It's a good question.
The data from BHVR says each survivor has a 40% chance of escaping on average, no in-game condition attached.
On the web app, I draw the actual mean escape rate of the survivors (in blue). It converges close to the chosen rate.
The way I see it, the reason survivors have escaped isn't really relevant, only that they have escaped at a rate close to that specified value. And of course the main information is the deduced killer win rate for said value.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836612#Comment_3836612
I've given the program so people could play with it "refuse to share the value". Conspiracy theorist much?
The draws are irrelevant as they mean that both teams have got a null.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836626#Comment_3836626
"proven wrong" then proceeds speaking about something I've specifically said was irrelevant.
I don't believe you understand what this is about.
Okay, thanks for explaining.
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@Saiph said:
Alright.
Since OP refuses to share the draw rate, I ran the program myself. Result:
- Wins : 47.5% (3K or 4K)
- Draws : 34.7% (2K)
- Losses : 17.7% (1K or 0K)
This is literally the output of the program shared by OP, from which he claims that the game is balanced. Anyone can run it and see these numbers, just by copy pasting the code in a Python interpreter.
So let me quickly summarize.
- Killers win 47.5% of the time. Survivors win 17.7% of the time, 3 times less. The rest are draws.
- OP saw these numbers, and concluded that "Killer winrate is only 47% so the game is balanced".
- When asked to share the full numbers, especially that draw rate, which reveals the trick, OP kept refusing, even saying that draws are "irrelevant".
That's interesting. That correlates with how when I recorded my most recent set of 100 survivor matches I saw that a 4K result was 2.5 times more likely than a 4E result.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834325#Comment_3834325
That's not the point. The point is that there have been many discussions questioning the target escape rate.
This script (and now the app in
) shows a good reason for that choice.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834354#Comment_3834354
What assumptions?
The chosen default escape rate is provided by BHVR a.ka the most accurate data we can have.
But more t than that, it's also the target chosen by BHVR. (40% escape rate, 60% kills).
It appears you misunderstand the use of the random uniform. A 40% escape rate means that, on average, a survivor escapes 40% of the time. So the program draws a random number between 0 and 100 (and it quite obviously need to be uniform) for each of the four survivors to determines if it has escaped or not. That's quite trivial.
As for the killer win, that's has always been defined like that: 2 kills: a draw, more a win, less a loss. But I'm not working on the survivor team wins, only the escape rate. Note that draws are irrelevant as they are just a "meh" game for both sides.
I'm convinced you don't understand what the program does and I don't know how to help you.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834370#Comment_3834370
I'm not talking about the survivor team win rate. I've been very careful speaking about killer wins and survivor escapes.
The whole discussion that pushed for this is all these posters complaining about the 40% escape rate being too low.
The "throwing a bone" you are talking about is part of that target 40% escape rate. That's how BHVR is quite skilfully on that 40% target.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834506#Comment_3834506
In this case because a draw seems quite irrelevant. Neither side has won, two survivors are sacrificed. That's a "meh" on both sides.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834517#Comment_3834517
The program only shows, by simulation, why the 40% target from BHVR makes perfect sense.
Everything else is out of scope.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834693#Comment_3834693
A 60% escape rate would translate to about a 18% win rate for the killer. Nobody would play killer ever (people were already leaving in droves with a 50% escape rate)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834647#Comment_3834647
You started well understanding the way computations are made (as simply as I could so anybody could understand …)
Yet you fail to understand what the program does.
You understand that it decides if a survivor escapes by rolling a dice. Right?
So you can understand that doing that for four survivors decide if the match is a win (a.k.a more than two kills) for the killer.
Additionally, I'm assuming you understand the convergence of results for truly random sampling (of which uniform random is a decent approximation)
So if you understand all that then you have to understand the result is accurate. (I'm hoping you understand the difference between survivor escape rate and survivor team wins.)
Do it yourself if you want, you'll get the same results.
As for the arguments about players ruining matches not being counted, it's obviously the one thing to do and … it doesn't even matter.
All the program says is that a 40% escape rate gives about 47% win rate for the killer.
The reason survivors escape at 40% is utterly irrelevant.
The points remains: BHVR targets 40% and, from their own accurate measure, get these results when players aren't rage-quitting.
People have complained about that 40% target and this shows 40% is only giving a 47% win rate for a killer.
Everything else is a moot point.
Isn't the issue more that your program assigns a comparable weight to each survivor escaping and doesn't reflect that once a survivor dies the chance for the remaining survivors to also escape is less than 40% so the weighting is inaccurate?
I'm just asking for curiousity by the way. I'm fine with the target escape rate being 40%; I just want the game to be fun by making game mechanics favour spreading hooks so the game is more enjoyable. However, I'm not invested in what the escape rate is as long as the game is fun to play for both roles.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836375#Comment_3836375
thats like me comparing using pain res dms and playing on garden of joy. you may be correct (doesnt mean you are or that I think you are) but these things are hardly comparable and that comparison only compromises your point.
tunnelling cant be solved without changing base game mechanics, that's correct, and here's a follow up fact: you do not base game mechanics to change because removing tunnelling as part of it will inherently involve balancing the game around killer's inability to potentially remove survivor early.
games where killers do not have to tunnel at all are usually stomp with fast chases or a lot of tunnelling or gen defending. and I dont think changing base game mechanics and not removing tunnelling as concept would be possible in that paradigm.
if you want to cut out a pretty important part of killer's skill expression and ability to gain pressure, you'll have to make up for that elsewhere. do you really want chases to get even shorter? or gens to become longer? or have some other absurd mechanic to make up for killer not being able to tunnel? because realistically, just like this game is NOT balanced around only solo or swfs, this game is also not balanced around ONLY tunnelling or not tunnelling killers. removing that part of the equation will force devs to balance the game for only one part of the spectrum.
this game hinges so ######### hard on survivors not playing to win and killers being chill, you cant even imagine the degree of that. "fixing" tunnelling is an example of forcing chill killers who play inefficiently to play efficiently. same kind of nonsense as adding VC to the soloqs.
You do not want this game being forced to become even more competitive than it normally is.
I did a series of posts and recorded games to see the difference that tunnelling gives to non-tunnelling Killers in terms of win rate. It turns out tunnelling gave more of an advantage to Killers than pre 6.1 Dead Hard. From that, I would say tunnelling is more of a crutch for the Killers who tunnel than the Survivors who relied on pre 6.1 Dead Hard. It's not great skill expression to tunnel; it's more of limited skill expression as having a macro based strategy based around when to pressure, when to chase and switching up requires more skill than tunnelling.
From the enjoyment perspective which is also used to discuss the abomination that was pre 6.1 Dead Hard tunnelling is also even less fun to face than pre 6.1 Dead Hard was and it deserves to be nuked from orbit just as pre 6.1 Dead Hard was. Unfortunately, there's a lot of gaslighting on these forums about tunnelling but, realistically, if someone complained about 'press E to win' with pre 6.1 Dead Hard but think tunnelling is okay they're being hypocrites
Personally I'd rather have a mechanic where gens are slower while all survivors are alive and speeds up as survivors are sacrificed to provide both an incentive to not tunnel and a punishment for tunnelling. In addition, it would make the games more entertaining.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836105#Comment_3836105
>Well, if [insert perk] is a solution to a basekit mechanic it already missed the point.
not when a mechanic is a legitimate strategy.
the perk is very powerful as a rock/paper/scissors counterplay, on part with unbreakable or reassurance, the only difference is that due to the way it works, it takes skill to use and not throw the game with it.
Tunnelling is a legitimate strategy similar to how pre 6.1 DH for distance was a legitimate strategy. That it's allowed doesn't mean it doesn't give a disproportionate advantage to the person using it.
Unfortunately, the only way to fix it in my opinion is to change base game mechanics. In the majority of public matches this perk is neither powerful nor useful and might be actively detrimental. If the Killer is planning on tunnelling a survivor and someone comes in and screams the Killer knows the screaming survivor is now down a hook stage and Exposed. By targeting the unhooker who should be pretty easy to hit at least once the unhooker now can't give a chase and will be either on death hook once hooked or dead if they had a hook state coming in. A tunnelling Killer with an ounce of sense will just tunnel the unhooker out instead now.
4 person SWFs will get a large amount of utility from it as they can coordinate hook trades. However, they're a tiny proportion of matches and it's solo queue that needs help; not stacked SWFs. This perk is a band aid that doesn't even stem the bleeding for the group that actually needs it.
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It shouldn't have either a scream or Exposed. It would still be questionable for solo queue with the lack of coordination but it might be useful if there were no tells it was used. As it is it's decent for SWFs but it will be limited utility for solos.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834001#Comment_3834001
Forgot about face the darkness since it has that TR requirement. Means it's not good for aura reading on the survivor you're chasing and you instead have to use it to find a new target without downing the injuring survivor before they heal or break the bones.
I think people are generally forgetting WHY BBQ was used so much. It activates generally when you need to find a new target to chase instead of while you already have a target. Floods of rage on the other hand can be really potent if it activates at the right time, but you have no real control over when that is.
You asked which perk provides aura reading when a survivor is injured; I answered and didn't bring up anything about chase.
If I want to find a new chase target even Darkness Revealed is better than BBQ on many maps. Friends Till the End is just better than BBQ in every way. That's part of the huge power creep that aura reading perks have gotten in DbD.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833880#Comment_3833880
Well... you just listed off the effect of like 10 different perks. If your asking if someone hacked the game to allow them to have all those perks equipped, if THAT would be stronger than BBQ and Nurses... of course. Some of those are questionable though. What perk shows auras based with no other activation requirement than survivors being injured?
If you start comparing 1 to 1, you'll notice aura reading perks haven't seen an uptick in strength. How many closed chests are there in the match that you wanna compare THAT to something reliable like BBQ? T
Hex: Face the Darkness activates on survivor being injured. NTH, Predator, Floods of Rage, Friends Till the End and Weave combined with Franklin's are all individually vastly more powerful than BBQ.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833625#Comment_3833625
How exactly have aura perks been power creeped? Things like BBQ bitter murmer and nurses have been around FOREVER. We've gotten more aura reading that trigger from different causes, but I wouldn't say they are necessarily stronger. Stuff like Friends til the end or Alien instinct I wouldn't say is STRONGER than BBQ. Many of these perks also announce that you've been seen. The last time we've gotten an aura perk that DIDNT announce itself was 2 years ago.
Are you arguing that going from an aura being read if more than 40 metres away upon a survivor being hooked and if healing but while most likely in the Killer's TR to being able to get your aura read if a survivor is hooked, if a survivor is unhooked, if a survivor is carried, if a locker is opened, if a gen is kicked and you're close by, if a survivor is downed and you're repairing a gen, if a good skill check is made while repairing a gen, if all survivors have been hooked once each, if a survivor stays injured, if a Hex Totem is cleansed or blessed, if a survivor walks by a closed chest, if you lose a Killer in a chase, or if a survivor walks by a dropped item doesn't represent power creep?
That the two ways that were counterable before (BBQ and Nurses) to read auras are equivalent in power to the at least six options that you can't counter without throwing the game or have no control over (Floods, Darkness, Gearhead, Grim Embrace, Predator, Weave Attunement) and tell you the survivor's aura no matter whether they're close by or far away isn't power creep? I haven't even included the aura reading add-ons that have been introduced either.
Ironically given the disingenuous nature of the complaints against Distortion the only way to actually reliably and consistently counter aura reading is to not do anything or run Sole Survivor where you only get value if a teammate dies.
So, from having two ways to read auras that could be countered to at least three times as many perks that are uncounterable or unable to counter unless you're in a 4 person SWF and the plethora of new aura reading add-ons the survivors have no control over you're saying that aura reading hasn't been power crept?
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@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831446#Comment_3831446
HAPPY MEAL MICROPHINE!!!! 🤭 like way to make my my day LOL.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831425#Comment_3831425
You can perm mute mics in the setting options its the first thing I did on the day I hear this person saying nasty racism things about sonny and everyone thankfully reported them.
I'm not going to play a game, though, where I can't use features of the game because the company can't or won't police racist and sexist comments and then balancing is made around a feature that can't be used unless you're okay with listening to slurs.
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Hopefully never in my opinion as well. I stopped playing TCM because of the voice chat and the stream of slurs of every type, the raging and the all-around toxicity. If TCM didn't have voice chat I'd still be playing but it does so I don't.
A communication wheel with items such as 'Going for the save!', 'Don't save, do gens!' to help communicate Deliverance and/or a camping Killer, etc would be useful but a feature that people don't use in general, can't guarantee a common language, that messes up my using audio to help find where people are when I can't see them and that is mainly used for racist and sexist comments, raging and broadcasting potato chip munching because they can't turn off their fricking mic? No thanks.
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@[Deleted User] said:
This thread is hilarious. The average survivor is average. If you do an experiment with a consistent control factor hundreds of thousands of times and come up with an answer that doesn't align with your hypothesis, you'd probably re-evaluate your hypothesis. Not the DbD community though. No, we stick to our expectations, 8 years of results notwithstanding.
If you think the average survivor is bad, you probably have an unrealistic expectation of what average performance looks like. The game is 8 years old. The average is the average. It's not what you assume the average should be.
But if the word average isn't used in a way that completely ignores every established definition of the word then that would mean that when the developers said they wanted the game to have Killers win more than they lose their changes to game mechanics actually had an effect! That would mean it's not survivors; it's that the developers made the game Killer sided after specifically stating that was their intent and changing code and game mechanics does actually change the game!
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831052#Comment_3831052
Thanks for the long response, I appreciate a person giving so much thought to an answer :)
I think that you are partly right at what you said about the MMR system, ie that being matched with someone vastly out of your reach can plummed your chance of winning, but I don't think that the tunneling I did is soley responsible for me getting matched against tough players. I consider myself a pretty good killer player, definitely not the best and still with some holes in my knowledge and mechanical skill, but I am pretty good most of the time and can stand my ground against a lot of the tougher teams, safe for the very best and well coordinated SWF teams.
Just like you explained how many people underestimate the influence of ELO at higher rated games, I think many players also vastly underestimate how the game changes gears and plays differently from what they might call a more casual match. From my time on the forums it seems that not many killers get too many survivors who basically hog all the gen time they can get, like literally, even in chase when I reverse the direction of a loop, they might nap 0.5s of gen time out of it and were I to abondon that chase, they would be on that gen before my back is even turned. Against such efficiency you can't spread hooks - you might not need to hard tunnel one survivor either, but you most certainly must ping pong between two survivers and drive up those hooks and hook stages on them and only take opportunity hits against the others.
There is one thing were most SWFs are very predictable: they want the 4E or at least 3E, so with tunneling you will often provoke even the gen jockeys to jump in for a protection hit, and this can give you breathing room if you strike those down. But you need to slam down hard on that team to eek out a win and must be at your a-game. If tunneling is made too weak basekit, there is literally no way how a killer in high MMR can pressure survivors to come and help their team mates. At least in the past you could listen in keenly and guess that OtR was in play, but now with Iron Will back to 100% its a coin toss and I think that a visual cue that OtR is there might not be unreasonable - in the best case scenario the perk would do what its supposed to do and let that killer seak other prey.
When I play survivor, I notice that my regular duo mate often fails to see the finer points from the killers POV: yeah, that guy is now tunneling at 4 gens, but 3 of this four gens were also worked on solo and are between 60-80% … thats a situation where I might also start to get mean, even though when from the surface it looks pretty chill. The efficiency race of the last 2 years has advanced both roles game in a way that they have to start hard and fast ASAP, least they get backed against the wall in an unwinnable situation, so I thank the best way to solve the issue would be to look at where the game was 3 years ago and what made games feel so differently then.
When I started DBD in 2021 most games weren't played at such a breakneck speed like they are today: I would get into a chase, down and hook them, while one gen got completed. Chases another survivor, downed and hooked them, while a second gen got completed. Now with the playing field smaller, the game heated up and things got more interesting.
But today that doesn't happen anymore, because the 6.1 aftermath breed it into survivors that they should split up with the sole exeption if they can tackle the mid-gen first. So now when the first chase is over, either 2-3 gens pop or the main gen pops mid-chase - both situation that already back me against the wall and make things uncomfortbale.
I hope my post does give you something to think about. If you are interested in trying an experiment you could start with a Killer you enjoy playing who you haven't done any tunnelling with and stick fast to an alternate hook strategy where it has to be a different survivor hooked each time and see how you feel about the matches after two or three months. It might give a different perspective.
I'd prefer my oft-mentioned strengthened gen defence while all survivors are alive to strengthened repair speed as soon as survivors start to die but the suggestion above is probably far more timely and possible than waiting for changes to game mechanics unfortunately.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830600#Comment_3830600
And yet y'all can never pinpoint what exactly gives killer default advantage. The math, any way you slice it, says the survivors have time advantage. 25-second chases can be game-losing. So any team capable of doing that can win. The reason those top SWFs lose is because they're facing nothing but Nurses and Blights, seeing as those are the only killers who can compete at that level. Maybe they lose to a lesser killer every now and then, through a mishmash of bad communication, bad map RNG, and unnecessarily risky plays. There's little to say about top level other than that.
At bottom level, obviously the killer's gonna win more, because although he's not playing to his fullest, as a noob, the survivors don't even know what a gen is. It's why killer buffs will not and cannot give a killer a straight increase in wins across all levels.
At mid-level, where both sides are getting competitive, they're still learning, and have room to improve, I think survivors are still advantaged. I don't know if that ever wasn't the case at mid-level, because gens have always been too quick to do, and except for some maps very recently, loops have been strong and abundant. I think that because killers have lost so much, and survivors gained so much in recent years, mediocre teams are now starting to beat experienced killers. MMR forces quick queues without regard to what level the players are at, in contrast to when MMR was almost perfect when it first launched. So the average survivor team has 2 good and 2 bad players, and the killer is decent (because only the most resilient killers have stuck with the role). The increase of gens to 90 seconds, and the quicker killer kicks and weapon recovery, are a placebo effect, especially since base BT, anti-camp, and now 70-second hook states completely trump them. If the killer chases the good survivors, he loses. If the killer chases and tunnels the bad ones out, he might win if the good survivors can't make up the difference. But that usually doesn't happen because the bad survivors aren't always that* bad, and actually somewhat know how to loop, supplemented by exhaustion perks and DS/OTR, or none of the above, because some loops are just an arbitrary time waste for killers. And that's without flashlight/pallet saves or instaheals or body blocks. So all this stuff is working against the killer; where's the killer start taking advantage? When he hooks someone? As long as 1 stays on gens, the pressure is still consistently on the killer to not make any mistakes. It's only after 1 survivor dies that it starts to turn to his advantage, and that requires tunneling. Sometimes you can tunnel all game, and either it's a bad chase to take or some mix of strong loops and altruism happens, and you're barley eeking out 1 kill by the time 5 gens are done. How the heck is that, "The killer is OP and in complete control"? I can go on, but I think you get my point.
@zarr already tackled most of your points in his post about competitive level DbD. However, we don't need to discuss theoretical situations as we actually have stats from BHVR that have a large enough sample size that concrete inferences can be made. And, in every one of those stats at high MMR, Killers kill more than Survivors escape. That's more accurate and useful in discussing the 'sidedness' of a game. I'm not arguing that's a bad thing as I think the Killer role is stressful enough that Killers should win more than they lose.
However, when examining a large enough sample size we can determine what is happening objectively versus the subjective nature of an individual's experiences, Killers kill more than Survivors escape at every composition from solo queue to 4 person SWF. That is, by definition, Killer sided.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830957#Comment_3830957
Dude, you are so full of vitriol and don't give the other side even one second of consideration.
I humbly asked to to take 3min out of your life and read the long commend I typed up just above yours, which gives a pretty comprehensive look of why we arrived at the game we have now. I would be interested in your thoughts on the matter, if you took a step back and looked at the big picture.
I'll give you my thoughts if you don't mind. Honestly, I disagree with what you're saying but definitely believe you when you say what you're experiencing. However, I disagree with the reason why you're experiencing what you are as I don't experience what you're describing when I'm playing Killer.
My opinion is that one of two factors are more at play here. The first is the least likely in my opinion of the two which is your MMR has been inflated by tunnelling which has put you in an MMR category you can't handle without tunnelling and you don't want to take enough losses to drop back down. That's an understandable position as it's what I've always stated is the long term detrimental effect on Killers of tunnelling. Having to take dozens of losses in a row to move your MMR down in not fun to put it mildly.
However, you have been playing for a long time and are an intelligent person so I think you probably have a good grasp on both micro and macro gameplay. What's more likely, once again my opinion, is that you're at the soft cap but not significantly above it. People underestimate how quickly your chances of success drop the higher in MMR your opponent is. DbD reportedly matches people at 200 points higher or lower than their opponents. That gives roughly a 10% chance of winning for the lower rated opponent. Move that to 300 points and that's roughly a 1% chance of winning. If the 1600 MMR soft cap threshold is true then somebody at 1600 could be placed against a 2300 or 2400 MMR opponent. At that point, the 1600 MMR player might as well make themselves some lunch as the outcome is pretty much predetermined and the 1600 MMR player is shark chum in that instance; they lost at the ready button.
That's what I believe is more likely to be the case. As I've never made a practice of tunnelling I've never run into what you're describing on anything close to a consistent basis which is also the point of MMR; if you don't tunnel the system should be matching you at a level you don't need to tunnel at.
If you are in the situation I believe you're at then I do have a lot of sympathy as it's a terrible place to be. However, BHVR also has to consider the fun of both sides and being tunnelled is a very negative gameplay experience. That's part of the reason why I bring up changing the mechanics to favour hooking. I don't have an issue when playing Survivor with losing more than I escape and neither do many other players. The issue is that if I'm going to be more likely to lose at least make it fun. With the prevalence of tunnelling right now, the Survivor role now has a higher chance of losing than escaping and the games aren't fun a lot of the time which is unhealthy for the game.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830600#Comment_3830600
If the survivors I face are consistently gods and everyone else faces bad survivors, that means I'm on a magical server at a magical MMR, right? It doesn't mean that the average survivor just looks like a god against me. I think it's more likely that I'm on a special server in a special region at Ultron MMR, and less likely that I'm turning average "bad" survivors into gods. Right? Right?!???!
Yes, DbD has Schrodinger's Survivors in that survivors are simultaneously so bad that it's the survivors' fault that tunnelling and camping is so effective and kill rates are so high but survivors are also simultaneously so good that tunnelling and camping is absolutely necessary for the Killer to have any chance and that's why Killers can't spread hooks. Completely logically consistent positions. Definitely.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
I feel it's a bit disingenuous to generalize and say the game is "killer sided" when there are 37 (or 38, i lost count) killer with varying mechanics, power levels and skill / effort requirements. You wouldn't say the game is killer sided for someone like Doctor or Demogorgon, will you? And what about Clown, Hag?
I also wouldnt operate with the statistics you've given as undeniable proof of the game being either sided. This game lacks any proper matchmaking or incentive for either side to express equal motivation to play and win in all of their matches and most of the time skill/motivation are much more impactful factors than disbalance. Look at Nurse's killrates. If we looked at that alone, I'd say she's a D tier killer in desperate need of giga buffs and games are survivor sided against
Skill / effort disparity is way more evident on the killer side where you have much more full picture of the match due to higher engagement.
It's also not very objective to talk about lack of survivor winstreaks without giving context to them. Ive seen a bunch of KL's winstreaking attempts and they all boiled down to stomping 99% of the lobbies and then getting a draw / loss when they couldn't meet their unrealistic win con against a streamsniper playing stuff like Tombstone myers. They are also often challenging themselves by self imposed restrictions. They arent running same perks, high tier items or map offerings.
Win con is another thing. The game doesnt really show you that your teammate's escapes matter (as they dont for anything other than mmr where it merely lowers your mmr gains for dying teammates) and it doesnt care much whether or not you escaped through hatch or gates. The game is very frivolous with the idea of what a true wincon is for survivors. Survivor streaks often go for unrealistic win condition that isn't supported by the base game. As far as it really goes, out of 5 people and 2 sides in the match, 3 people can lose and 2 people on the opposite sides can win.
This game isn't symmetric and win conditions are not determined symmetrically. If we start doing that and treating both teams as equal, then it boils down to the variety of options they have, which takes us back to the wide array of differently balanced killers and various options survivors have.
Another issue is the fact this game is not designed for competitive play. Matchmaking, as previously mentioned, is not accommodated for competitive play and the balance of each individual match is extremely volatile in favour of whichever side brings more ######### / gets more lucky.
Your premise has two flaws. We're discussing Killer as a whole and not specific Killers. In other words, we're discussing apples and you're discussing oranges. If you want to argue there's a large delta between the power levels of different Killers I don't think anybody will seriously dispute that.
The second is that wasn't every Killer at over 50% kill rate at top MMRs with the last data released? On Nightlight doesn't every Killer have a higher percentage of games that are 3Ks and 4Ks than games of OK and 1K?
Individual Killers may need assistance as the goal kill rate is 60%, not 50%, but with every Killer killing more than Survivors escape there's no credible argument against the game being Killer sided on the whole.
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I'll plug again my suggestion that has very little chance of ever being implemented; a debuff to gen repair speeds while all survivors are alive coupled with the debuff being replaced by a buff once a survivor has been killed and the buff increasing each time a survivor has been killed. For those who haven't read my previous discussions of this this would theoretically change it so the most likely chance to get a 4K would be spreading hooks so every survivor is on death hook. The gen speed debuff is there to help alleviate pressure on the Killer when the Survivors are at their strongest so spreading hooks isn't as hard and the gen speed buff is there to punish tunnelling by making it more likely the other survivors will escape if someone gets tunnelled. Also, if it shifted the balance to 1 to 3Ks being more common than 4Ks and 4Es that would be a benefit in my opinion.
I also like @Akumakaji 's BP bonus and aura reading. I don't think it would deter tunnelling enough by itself but it would be good to implement at any rate.
The glyph suggestion @Firellius made was also good. If something like that couldn't be implemented I'd like the idle crow timer to start when someone isn't either in chase, healing, doing gens, cleaning totems, etc etc so anyone not progressing the match gets crows regardless of whether they're idle or not (eg locker hopping to avoid crows would now get crows unless the survivor came out to do gens or something similar)
As well, I'd like that as soon as there are only two survivors in a match then there is a bleed out quick option. A mini game for slugged survivors to speed up their recovery rate similar to what VHS did or a buff to crawling speed would also be welcome.
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It isn't survivor sided at any level and any attempts to claim it is are either disingenuous or falling prey to a sample size fallacy. Even in the highest levels of MMR a 4 person SWF can't break a 50% escape rate on the average.
Attempting to say it's because 'survivors aren't that good' is being in denial of the fact the current game mechanics favour Killer.
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@CleanseThis said:
I don't even know how this is still an issue. Distortion hard countered a CATEGORY of perks.
You're ignoring the power creep issue with this argument, Distortion in its previous iteration being quite easy to run out of tokens with stealth based Killers, Spies in the Shadows, Discordance and Surveillance hard countering Distortion, and also that Gearhead and full aura reading builds were able to run Distortion out of tokens while still providing full value on the Survivors without Distortion. As well, your argument isn't taking into account that Distortion doesn't make Survivors invisible and that Survivors can be located normally.
As a parallel, as @Ayodam indicated, Lightborn counters a category of Survivor perks as it renders every perk that creates blinds or enhances blinds useless. Nobody has called for any nerfs to Lightborn as countering blinds is Lightborn's job and, to be worth taking, it has to be good at its job and it's a situational gamble; no attempts to blind equals no value. That was also true with Distortion; no aura reading perks equalled no value.
The biggest issue of what I mentioned is, in my opinion, the power creep. As there no more counters to aura reading that are on par with the power of aura reading perhaps it's time to introduce tokens to aura reading perks so it's no longer possible to get essentially on demand at the important times aura reading.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829912#Comment_3829912
I think you're perhaps supplanting experiences onto new players that they aren't actually likely to experience here, at least a little bit? I don't think many brand new killers are running strong aura perks that they use to tunnel people out, because they're probably not even going to know what the strong perks are or that tunnelling is a strong strategy. Besides, even if they are- that's tunnelling, not aura reading. Something that still needs to be conclusively addressed, but also has its own counter perks.
For average use of aura reading, the current counters are absolutely good enough. None of them just shut off aura reading entirely, and nor should they, but the three viable aura blocking perks all have a strong and useful niche that'll help survivors who struggle with the respective form of aura reading.
The three viable perks include Distortion, by the way, I feel I need to make that clear. Distortion in its current form is a good, consistent, reliable perk.
I don't think you can guarantee, though, that new players will run into new Killers that don't tunnel. Matchmaking quite often wildly misplaces people into different matches and with a large amount of streamers saying that the most effective strategy is tunnelling it's more likely they will run into tunnellers and Killers who have at least base perks involving strong aura reading (eg any Onryo with Floods of Rage will easily pick up on an unhooked survivor).
It won't be a make or break decision from BHVR in any event. However, it is a poor decision in my opinion. You may feel that the current level of counters is commensurate with the current level of aura reading but I disagree. As both of our positions are based on opinion with no data at hand to make inferences from it's just our opinions anyway.
The other point I made is that Killers don't need any additional assistance right now as a whole based off of the data BHVR uses for balancing. New players on the other hand definitely do. As such, if there were to be a change I think basing it off of generator repair time would have been better for newer players overall. It would incentivize better habits for new survivors and, incidentally, new Killers should also have to work on locating survivors without aura reading perks as well since the game shouldn't be balanced around Killers getting on demand aura reading and it limits skill expression by making locating survivors so easy. As such, I don't think BHVR needed to make a change and the change, once we consider newer players, was poorly implemented. A different criteria (gen repairs) would have been more productive.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829795#Comment_3829795
A lot of this seems to rest on the implied assertion that Distortion is no longer useful or consistent, but that's not true. Distortion is still very consistent at countering specific kinds of aura reading, and moderately consistent and countering the rest. It still does the main thing that it is supposed to do, it just isn't flawless any more.
I'm not quite sure what you mean about it helping new players before but not now, so apologies if I'm not addressing the core of your argument, but to me it seems like it still does do just that. It's a layer of protection against being chased right away due to Lethal, it's a layer of protection against having your aura read from something like BBQ or Nowhere To Hide, and it's exceptional at helping you protect against mid-chase aura reading. All of that is very useful to a new player- what's missing, what did they get before that they don't now? They can't hide forever with just Distortion, but that'd be a pretty unreasonable expectation so I don't want to assume that's what you meant.
There are still defences against aura reading, that are absolutely viable against the current overall strength of info perks. There could absolutely stand to be more, since there are only currently three viable ones and a singular non viable one on top of that, but they do exist at the moment and all three viable ones are on original survivors to boot, so no forced paywall.
One issue with new players that I was referring to is that an experienced survivor will look around while working on gens in order to see an approaching Killer. A new Survivor may not and will then take a hit from the Killer getting too close and may very well drop in less than 15 seconds. That means they have no protection in that case.
To add to that a new player is more likely to be tunnelled if a Killer is targeting the weakest link. It is quite possible to determine with aura reading which character model is who so the Killer can then beeline right back to the just unhooked newbie survivor and tunnel them right out. That's not an engaging game experience nor one that is likely to retain new players. With the large plethora of aura reading available it's very possible to get a read on where a recently unhooked survivor is. That wasn't the case back when the main aura reading perk was BBQ. However, with the current power creep that aura reading perks have undergone it is pretty easy to track people off hook. That's why I mentioned 30 seconds of generator repair would have been better for new players; the new player can't stay hidden and would have to engage in the game experience to recharge tokens.
It would also cause better game habits if it were tied to generators as the most consistent counter now to aura reading for new survivors is Sole Survivor but that only works if your teammates die. I'd rather new players work on gens to get aura reading counters instead of hiding players letting their teammates die and, with the MMR being as wildly varied as it is, there is no guarantee a new player will last 15 seconds in chase.
I don't really think that's addressing the power creep that aura reading perks have undergone though. I don't feel that the current level of counters to aura reading perks is commensurate with the power creep that aura reading has gotten now that Distortion has been nerfed but that's a subjective opinion anyway so not worth mentioning it anymore than how I feel.
What I question with BHVR though is why make a change that could impact the new player experience when Killers have the highest kill rates and more advantages than at any other time but the new player experience is abysmal? Killers as a whole (as opposed to individual Killers) don't need any help but new survivors certainly do.
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I disagree with how Distortion was changed for a variety of reasons. The most impactful of those for the game as opposed to myself is that Distortion used to help new players while now it does not do so. The 15 seconds in chase is welcome and anyone with situational awareness should be able to get 15 seconds just hitting W on most Killers. However, new players don't necessarily have situational awareness as they're new and DbD already has such atrociously high barriers against entry for new survivor players that anything that helps them should be encouraged. I feel that tying tokens to 30 second periods spent on gens would have been more helpful.
On a personal note Distortion feels more like you're being cheated now to me instead of rewarded for being in chase. In a couple of recent games I ran a Killer who was trying to tunnel me until my OTR indicator ran out (so over 80 seconds as a minimum). In return I got one token? That doesn't feel commensurate with the effort put in. If there were more tokens available than 2 or the tokens were tied to gen repairs it would have felt better even if Distortion was useless in those two specific scenarios (a Killer sticking to me like glue; there's no need for aura reading unless the Killer loses track)
I don't think a change was even that necessary as I quite often run aura reading builds and I had no issues finding Distortion users. It's not accurate to say it's unfair for Distortion to counter so many perks and items when the only reason that Distortion was popular is because there are so many powerful aura reading tools available. As soon as NTH was introduced I thought that Distortion would become popular simply because of the aura reading power creep. If aura reading perks hadn't received so much power creep then there wouldn't have been a reason for Distortion to have been buffed. However, aura reading perks are multiple times stronger than when BBQ and Chili was considered strong aura reading.
Distortion is also hard countered by Spies in the Shadows, Surveillance and Discordance. I'd rather know myself which and how many Survivors are on gens so I can more accurately determine when I should drop chase and defend gens instead.
All in all, I find the change was both unnecessary and poorly implemented. Distortion was nerfed without addressing the underlying reason that it was popular because aura reading has been power crept substantially and it was changed in a way that both makes the game harder for new survivors and doesn't feel like it rewards more experienced survivors. If Distortion is not to be reverted back then I feel BHVR also needs to either address the power creep Killer aura reading perks have received or change the requirement to recharge tokens to a time period such as 30 seconds repairing generators so at least it helps newer players develop better habits.
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- I have a few suggestions (I'm not suggesting all get implemented; just that there are many ways to incentivize it)
- Provide a gen repair speed debuff while all survivors are alive and replace the debuff with a gen speed repair buff that scales higher with each dead survivor. Theoretically, this should switch the balance to a 1K to 3K being more likely than a 4E or 4K
Put Ruin back at 200% but deactivating upon survivor death
Let Pain Res activate upon each hook but it deactivates upon survivor death
For pure incentives I like the serious incentives listed above as well. My general thought is I like gen defence being more powerful while all survivors are alive to slow down survivors at the strongest point for them and increasing survivor gen repair speed the more that survivors get sacrificed. That way, snowballs on either side become less likely and it's more likely each side gets a chance to play instead of getting stomped.
I also have no idea why my formatting is so messed up on this post 🥲
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@NotVerySuss said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828407#Comment_3828407
I get your point about occupying the 3 survivors and it used to work well.. but the thing is now when they greed gens instead of hooking it kinda feels like trading objectives.. yes their greed might cost them to skip a hook stage but that’s only 1/12 of your objective but in the other end they finish 2/5 of their objective.. it just doesn’t feel fair..
does it make sense? English is not my first language so sorry it my explanation is not very clear..
The 1/5 and 1/12 comparison isn't really accurate though. The first gens are always the easiest and the last gens are the hardest. At the beginning of the game survivors have the most resources and the resources get whittled down over time making it harder to complete gens. As well, some gens are way off in the distance and completing those gens makes it easier for the Killer to patrol the gens that are closer to each other.
I've always played for spreading hooks without camping or tunnelling and I haven't noticed any difference with the extra time. If anything, the hooked survivor being left on the hook has made it a tiny bit easier as that's 10 seconds where I don't have to keep another survivor occupied.
There are two things that come to mind that could be affecting you. The first is that you're at the soft cap or close enough to the soft cap to be matched with people above the soft cap. That can lead to a string of losses. As an example, at 2100 MMR in chess you will win against 99% of players but, if facing a 2400 MMR player, you'll lose 99% of the time. If the 2100 player would be matched only against 2400 and up MMR players because their chess federation wanted a lot more matches and they're weren't any 2100 MMR players around they would lose consistently even though if we were to randomly select players the 2100 player would beat 99% of them.
BHVR is, in this example, the chess federation that wants more matches (lower queue times) as they're a video game company and if they were to force equal matches all the time many players would leave because they would have insufferable queue times (eg at MMR implementation Dowsey, when he played DbD, would get 45 minute queue times).
If a person is at the soft cap then until you're a few hundred points past the soft cap you'll experience a bunch of losses. That's an expected result from imposing a soft cap. Expected of course doesn't mean fun or anything else but that's how it works.
The other possibility is that you're not dropping chase often enough to disrupt gens. As noted above by @jesterkind you have to keep survivors occupied enough that gen efficiency plummets. If you're staying a bit too long in chase maybe the survivors are getting a bit too much time on their hands.
Or maybe it's a combination of the both. Anyway, I hope what I posted was helpful.
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In a two sided competitive game with different mechanics on each side there will always be somebody complaining about something. As most Survivor perks have very limited usefulness there isn't anything substantial to complain about so people complain about something that, if they had been complaining about it during other meta such as release CoH or MoM, etc, they would have gotten laughed at on the forums.
It's relative; not subjective and with most Survivor perks having such limited usefulness people now complain about WoO simply because it's better than the others.
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Isn't this thread from over three years ago? Could we define a tryhard as someone who resurrects a three year old thread?
Arise my pretty
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824182#Comment_3824182
it's funny how it's always gonna be "i shouldn't have to run a perk hidden behind the paywall" (you had it so many times in shrine +you don't necessarily even have to run anti-tunneling perks to counter tunneling) but then there will always be money ready to be smacked out of wallets for Sable skins, rift passes and various cosmetics in general
You have access to their purchase history so you can see how each person is spending their money?
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823990#Comment_3823990
I never said it wasn't. If you need to manufacture things I never said, I've proven my point.
-mic drop-
You literally said 'tunnelling and camping is a winning strategy and spreading hooks isn't '. I included your post from less than two hours ago where you stated that.
@JimbusCrimbus said:
The fact is, you can love it or you can hate it, proxy camping and tunneling is a winning strategy. Spreading hooks across survivors, not tunneling, is not a winning strategy. If it works, it's because the survivors are bad. Even Hens figured this out, and admitted it when it did a video where he did a 10 game win streak as Trapper without camping or tunneling. He FULLY admitted in the comments for the video that the survivors he faced were SIGNIFICANTLY less skilled than he was, after other people in the comments called it out. Otherwise, like it or not, he would have been bodied.
"Don't tunnel, don't camp, don't slug" - these are all imaginary rules. They aren't real, and you need to let go of them. It can't only be okay for survivors to use strong stuff, use effective strategies to try and win.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823983#Comment_3823983
It's not an ad hominem attack to say you don't really have a full understanding, or are too new to understand. Which is what I'm saying. Trying to frame it as an attack isn't going to work with me. You'll have to do better than that, friend.
And I haven't said it isn't POSSIBLE. But survivors aren't going out of their way and put themselves at a disadvantage to stop themselves from doing things that annoy/bore killers. There's no reason to do anything but match that energy. Period. End of story.
So you're now saying it is possible to have more than a 60% win percentage without tunnelling and camping, tunnelling and camping is not necessary in public matches and gives a disproportionate advantage to the Killer but you would rather tunnel and camp out of rancor and spite because some survivors annoy you?
If so, that's at least a far more honest statement than most of the statements I've seen defending tunnelling.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823980#Comment_3823980
Your own games are anecdotal evidence. Hens has done videos on this, Otz has done videos on this, many many more. It's not about their audience. It's about their experience level and general knowledge. Which is something you seem to lack in terms of DBD if your retort is the standard, typical and tired "lol if u camp n tunnel ur bad".
Typically ad hominem attacks such as this are used by one side when their arguments have been so thoroughly debunked that there is nothing left. If you feel it's so necessary than why is it possible to get a higher than 60% win rate in public matches without tunnelling and camping?
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
"Some old games"
Anecdotal evidence (aka, your own personal experience) isn't real evidence.
I rest my case.
It's certainly better evidence than what you've provided which is essentially just "Because I said so" even when presented with video evidence to the contrary. The kill rates were lower in January 2023 than they are now. Are you implying that even though kill rates have gone up it's somehow harder for Killers now than when kill rates were lower?
I have no issues with recording a series of games now to prove my point but it'll take a few weeks to get 100 games so a proper sample size can be reached.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823942#Comment_3823942
I know you're just trying to, in an intelligent sounding roundabout way, say "only bad killers tunnel and camp" - and that's why you don't have an argument. It's not that black and white, and if that's what you think, you don't have enough knowledge or data on the subject to even be having this discussion, with all due respect. Stop drop the pedantic and sarcastic nonsense, my IQ is too high to fall for hook, line and sinker. Just because you don't LIKE something, doesn't make the other side "bad" for doing it.
It's more accurate to say that survivors splitting up on gens, running exhaustion and WoO is needed in public matches if the survivors are mediocre in comparison to the killer.
But your argument is false. Here are links to some old games where I won virtually all of them without camping and tunnelling with Killers I had been playing a match a day with for months. (I recorded them to observe my games after the fact but never got around to deleting them).
Nothing has changed except Killer is now easier. So, if for over two years, I can win the majority of my games without tunnelling and camping in public matches but you can't would it not be more accurate to say you probably have a skill issue or are misplaced in MMR and are compensating for it by crutching on tunnelling and camping?
You can't have it both ways where you say that the problem is 'bad teammates or survivor skill' and then also say 'tunnelling and camping is needed in public matches'. The players aren't Schrodinger's Survivors where they're simultaneously bad and that's why tunnelling works but also good enough that tunnelling and camping is needed to win.
https://youtu.be/JU-EyAVSGHU?si=OWdToM3bHZxXtTtS https://youtu.be/kwzqxt6s0ss?si=tK4n92HkRnU-oWGX https://youtu.be/ID1SJ1ni-8o?si=A8s7ueMT5fyXa4-1 -
@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823918#Comment_3823918
That's just laughable. The fact is, camping and tunneling only works if the survivors are already mediocre. The only survivors it really hurts are mid survivors who usually get carried by their S tier perks.
The sad truth of the matter is, I get hit with anti tunnel FAR more when I'm NOT tunneling than when I AM tunneling. Survivors use their "anti tunnel" in an offensive manner. So they really don't get to complain when killers don't pander. If you're going to get hit with this stuff anyway, may as well just tunnel anyway.
It's more accurate to say that tunnelling and camping is needed in public matches if the Killer is mediocre in comparison to the Survivors.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
The fact is, you can love it or you can hate it, proxy camping and tunneling is a winning strategy. Spreading hooks across survivors, not tunneling, is not a winning strategy. If it works, it's because the survivors are bad. Even Hens figured this out, and admitted it when it did a video where he did a 10 game win streak as Trapper without camping or tunneling. He FULLY admitted in the comments for the video that the survivors he faced were SIGNIFICANTLY less skilled than he was, after other people in the comments called it out. Otherwise, like it or not, he would have been bodied.
"Don't tunnel, don't camp, don't slug" - these are all imaginary rules. They aren't real, and you need to let go of them. It can't only be okay for survivors to use strong stuff, use effective strategies to try and win.
It's more appropriate to say that tunnelling and camping increase the Killer's chance disproportionately in comparison to the effort put in and have a much lower skill floor than what is needed to counter tunnelling. That's what your calling it a winning strategy is admitting as there is no need to tunnel and camp in public matches unless your skill as a Killer is subpar in comparison to the survivors you're against and you need to tunnel and camp or a 60% win percentage is just not enough for you (which would be a you problem in that case). It's not difficult to get win streaks and a good win percentage without tunnelling and camping in public matches as long as you avoid tunnelling and camping to begin with.
Tunnelling and camping wasn't as much as a pressing issue in the past as the Survivor role had a lot of busted stuff to even it out as well. However, Survivor doesn't have any busted stuff now while Killer still has access to low skill floor strategies that require a much higher level of skill and coordination to counter than implement. Tunnelling throws the odds to win in one side's favour even more than the old 'press E to outplay' pre 6.1 DH and should, in my opinion, be treated with even more derision. It's a relic that should be thrown on the garbage heap along with infinite loops and pre 6.1 DH.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823548#Comment_3823548
Brother, no one here is a killer or a survivor. Were all people trying to enjoy a videogame
so cut the us vs them bullshit and go have fun god dammit
I'd upvote this comment 100 times if it were possible to do so.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823163#Comment_3823163
I know all about anecdotal evidence.
I'm an average survivor. I don't stand on any of the extremes. (> 3.5k hours player who plays casually)
People who play during the day, say early afternoon, will get a different experience and it makes perfect sense.
I've got a job. I play during the evening. That's when a majority of players are available (not just children out of school and the unemployed). If there really was an exodus, that time-frame would be affected. It's not.
Another hint is that the DBD player base on steam is relatively stable. It's not the whole the player base but it's representative.
There again, if there was a survivor exodus stable numbers would mean survivors have been replaced by killers an killer queues would be long (e.g. 2vs8). We can plainly see it's not the case, ergo, no exodus.
I'm not saying there is a massive exodus. I'm saying ancedotes and queue times don't prove there is one way or another without more evidence to back it up. From my queues it would appear there has been a decline in Survivor players and an increase in Killer players. However, there are other factors such as BHVR grouping by MMR, regional differences, etc. The only variable I could control for is hours and I generally play during peak times. As such, I don't extrapolate my experience to other people.
So, you've said survivor queues take minutes at times for you (which I'm not disputing) but none of my queues do so and looking at the queue times in my most recent games that I taped doesn't show a substantial queue either in any of 100 games at peak hours or non-peak hours. My Killer queues have increased a bit but there were only a few I would classify as long.
That's why I'm saying queue times and ancedotes don't prove there is an exodus or not by themselves. I also said that subjectively people can say that solo queue survivor is at its least enjoyable point because that's a more salient point to the actual state of DbD and talking about queue times just obfuscates the issue discussions about queue times hint at; is there an issue with how fun playing one side is? Based on my experience (which is the only one I can speak to of course) there definitely is and talking about un-provable queue times just seems like derailing the main issue which is solo queue survivor needs significant help.