TheSubstitute
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@tubalcane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793596#Comment_3793596
The only RIGHT decision is to realize that things that make the game harder doesn't mean they should be nerfed. You have tons of pallets and endless windows and jungle gyms. When getting tunneled, use them.
Again you are showing data where people (you i guess) have problems with them when they are scores of players that can almost never be tunneled.
It's not about "data" that shows the game is hard for you - it's about fairness. And you have tons of advantages so use them. What's next, once a killer hooks a survivor they need to run all the way across to the other side of the board or you get 3 hook states back?
You're not responding to my actual points and instead are making suppositions with no actual value to them. If you feel it's so easy feel free to show your 100 or so solo queue games where you manage to counter tunnelling while dealing with random teammates, no knowledge of perks held by said teammates, and no way to communicate. Until you do so, none of your posts make any sense.
Getting those games together would be much more constructive on the forums than just pinging me over and over saying the same thing.
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I'll give you that it could have increased the quantity of tunnelling. The problem with trying to prove a direct link is that there has always been tunneling. During the Erupting Call of Overbrine 3 gen meta players still tunnelled. During OG Ruin when skill checks had to be made players still tunnelled. So, did nerfing gen regression cause it or was it the move to MMR and away from Emblems (which rewarded multiple hooks), was it the content creators, etc? It's hard to say and pinpoint.
The second issue is saying that Killers need to tunnel. They don't. It's not necessary and will only appear so if you are now at a skill level that your chasing and macro skills don't support and your only chance is to tunnel (when you could have developed those skills more by not tunneling and gotten there eventually; just not immediately).
The other issue with tunnelling is that it's a disproportionate skill floor and takes far less effort to implement than to counter. That's irrelevant to why Killers tunnel; it suggests a balance issue.
If tunnelling can be effectively dealt with then, yes, Killers may need buffs, gen speeds might need nerfs, etc but until tunnelling is dealt with it's much harder to get the data to see what exactly is needed.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
I think to combat tunneling theyd have to give something on both ends like penalties for the tunneling, but the killers get stronger in some way so that tunneling becomes much less incentivised. There are people however that arent just tunneling to win faster, they even sit there in your face griefing while they do it, sadly nothing can be done about changing that mindset. And currently a swf is stronger than an average killer, and an killer who tunnels is always stronger than a random group. So more than one thing has to be adjusted somewhere to find the real 60%kill rate balance they are after without killers resorting to tunneling.
Sorry, my quote didn't take on my post for some reason. The post where I said some Killers may need some buffs here and there was the one where I responded to you.
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That is one of the items I mentioned in my analysis. If Killers that don't tunnel and camp are at a 56% kill rate overall and the goal is 60% then some Killers might need a buff here and there.
I say some because my data size isn't large enough to make any specific observations about specific Killers. It could be one Killer is fine and the other not.
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@tubalcane said:
Again to be clear - tunneling is a completely acceptable form of playing the game. It's like saying "Gen rushing is bad and it should be nerfed". No both are completely acceptable ways to play the game and both have counters. Just stop whining about tunneling already, the game is already so easy for survivors, do you really need more help to win? Dozens of pallets. Windows around every turn. Anti-camp. Basekit DT. No more instagrab survivors from hook, the list goes on and on. Stop wasting time doing convoluted analyses and get better at the game.
That doesn't address any of the actual issues that I brought up. The pre 6.1 DH, DS, IW, UB meta was also a way to play the game. However, it led to imbalances that got it removed. Tunneling is no different.
I did post 175 games over two years showing a decline in escape rates that was specifically linked to the incidences of tunneling. If you feel it's a skill issue feel free to post a 100 solo queue games or so showing you tackling the issue consistently.
This is a feedback and suggestion thread by the way. Perhaps while you get those games together you could simply let BHVR decide on their own if they want to look into it as I suggested?
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793551#Comment_3793551
I know, they're a Survivor Main who desperately wants winrates to be as high as Killer kill rates are, without realizing the issue. I'm just here to point out the many many ways their opinions aren't gonna work for anyone else reading or the lurkers who drop by the forums.
As a hybrid player? I agree. Survivor isn't fun when you can win easily. Challenge me. I want even weaker Killers like Myers and Trapper to feel like threats. I want to be able to wonder, "will I make gens in time to get away from Ghostface before he downs me?" I want to know I am fighting against someone superior in every way to me as a mere Survivor, just trying my best, so that victory. Feels. EARNED.
You're obviously brand new to the forums and possibly the game. Based on your posts I'm inclined to believe both. That, of course, by its own means nothing. However, if you wish to say 'so and so' is an X main it runs the risk of making you look foolish when you make accusations that don't match up with the facts.
As well, I haven't seen any argument from you that addresses any of the data I presented and instead try to address the actual data and videos I provided with opinions. Can you please actually familiarize yourself with my actual posts and data if you're going to address me on multiple threads?
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793530#Comment_3793530
If it were not an intended gameplay feature then the Devs would have removed it. The benefit it gives is as a comeback mechanic.
I agree tunnelling from the word go needs to be made weaker. Tunnelling midgame is fine, you're just upset you got outplayed halfway through when you are all in a strong position with nobody out yet. This is how Killers start snowballs; snowballs are part of the game.
Please get over yourself and just put on the antitunnel perks if this really happens to you all the time. Maybe wear less obviously bright cosmetics. Killer Mains are not all out to get you, and intended gameplay is not a crutch, I am not arguing with you or anyone else about how the game is intentionally designed by developers.
I guess if you hate the game this much that intended design elements are not okay to you? Play something else. This may not be the game for you if you can't handle being targeted by another player occasionally. And yes, it is occasionally, it DOES NOT statistically happen as much as you think it does and I can pull up my other stats post I did here to prove it.
I already proved it happens in 26% of my games and there are anti-tunnel perks used. Did you not read the post I linked to in the other thread? I literally included video proof of it happening.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792803#Comment_3792803
What crutches where? The only crutches Killers have literally ever had are the generator perks, which I agree, were too much when stacked together. Over the course of the history of this game, Survivors have pretty much always had their crutch perks for much longer than Killers get them. Every time. Every patch. That only changed with the 6.1 patch and again with recent changes.
Tunnelling is not a crutch, it's an intended gameplay feature. There are perks to deal with it. You cannot call intended gameplay features crutches. Gen control perks are not a gameplay feature, you can play without them. Tunnelling is a basekit tool INTENDED by devs, the same as how pushing gens to be done is a basekit tool INTENDED by the devs. Your argument here is apples and oranges of what we're actually discussing which is perks used to crutch. Basic gameplay just cannot ever be considered a crutch, it's basic gameplay.
I would argue right now the only things that currently need addressing and therefore may be considered crutches are Weave-Franklin's, like one item on Surv side, some addons that should be basekit or addressed on some Killers, and maybe a few perks on Survivor side.
It's not an intended gameplay feature as seen by the Emblem system and all the perks where BHVR gives incentives to not tunnel. Anything that gives a disproportionate effect in a video game for minimal effort is a crutch. Tunnelling qualifies. It's no different than being in an FPS where one gun does 300% more damage than any other; it doesn't mean the player with the 300% gun is necessarily more skilled. It means they're using a crutch to their advantage.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793464#Comment_3793464
it's funny that you keep asking people to replicate your "research" by doing their own research in soloQ environment.
If you really want to see if it's the very tunneling that is problem in soloQ or skill variation of players due to MMR being nonexistent, pick 3 teammates you are confident have decent skill in DbD for the test, invite them to lobby with specific rules:
- no voice comms;
- no announcing loadouts
Pretend you have been matched with a decent soloQ team against average killer, play 175 matches and then come back with results.
Because the research you are presenting is literally blaming tunneling instead of what i think is the actual monster of a problem here, and that is terrible matchmaking.
I'm not discussing a SWF despite all of your evade the issue; I'm discussing solo queue.Show your games. Whenever people discuss tunnelling they're invariably asked to show their games. So I did (even though this started just to measure how much tunnelling had increased and it was a surprise to see it's effectiveness).
The shoe is now on the other foot; show your games illustrating how solo queue, not SWF, consistently and effectively combat it.
You either can, in which case you're presenting more nuance, or you can't and you're completely wrong with no nuance.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793413#Comment_3793413
I am very clearly stated that you cannot “mechanic out” play style without creating a mechanic that gives a MAJOR advantage to survivors. There was nothing disingenuous about it. You know exactly what I said and you also very clearly want to have your hand held through every aspect of the game. Nobody wants to take accountability for why we have such a problem with tunneling. Maybe it’s because survivors have had their hands held in every other aspect of the game. This entire thread is “people are playing in a way that I don’t like so create a mechanic to force them to play how I want them to play.” That’s exactly what you’re saying. You can use all of the statistics and all of the wording that you want to try and make it sound .
First it was “We made poor choices with what generators we popped, and now we can’t finish them all do something.”
Next it was “Slowdown perks actually slow us down do something!”Now it’s “The killer is killing me instead of letting all four survivors stay in game to pop gens do something.”
It’s unreal. And so long as you have that mindset, things like this will constantly happen, no matter what they do with the game, because unless you are literally allowed to work on generators with no interruption from the killer whatsoever, you will not be happy.
Or it's more that a strategy that has over a 90% win rate when used against randoms is overpowered, has a greater effect on the game than broken items such as pre 6.1 Dead Hard, and should be removed or lessened in effectiveness as it's unfair and distorts data.
If you feel it's so easy to overcome feel free to post 100 to 175 of your solo survivor queues effectively combating tunneling on a consistent basis. I posted games for my proof so, unless you do so, you really have no leg to stand on nor actual arguments. So show me the gameplay and your escape rates over a large enough sample.
As it is BHVR has already seen the post so BHVR can decide if this is concerning enough to investigate, the results of said investigation and determine if there is a feasible strategy to implement as it's their game. That was the point of putting this in Feedback and Suggestions.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792280#Comment_3792280
The problem here is that tunneling is not a mechanic. It is a play style. The only way to “correct” it would be to create a mechanic that doesn’t allow it to happen. This in itself would become a problem because it guarantees that four survivors stay on the map. So trying to correct a play style would give an unfair advantage to survivors by means of mechanics.
I really don’t understand people here.
Survivor main goals - fix generators and escape.
Killers main goals- prevent generator repair and kill survivors.Complaining survivors that don’t like that the killer was able to slow down generators or stop them when survivors made bad choices effectively got rid of one of the killer’s main goals.
And now you’re upset that they are focusing on the other goal, because the first one has been nerfed into the ground?
I give up with these people. Let’s just remove all the killers altogether and let’s just have a generator repair simulator. That’s pretty much what these people want.
For some reason, reading your post gives me an image of an elderly Trapper in a lawn chair yelling for the survivors to get off his lawn.
You didn't respond to any of the actual arguments or points by the way except for a disingenous attempt to paint tunnelling as comparable to spreading hooks which is completely false.
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@Purple_Pony said:
Based on my observations, I can confirm that if the killer resorts to tunneling, he usually wins, and if he doesn't, he loses (provided that the team of survivors plays normally). At the same time, the game from tunneling, as it seems to me, is not interesting for either the maniac or the survivors.
I would really like to see the tunneling tactic made less effective, but at the same time, it might make sense to buff the killers or weaken the survivors in something else. It would be especially good if the killer received some kind of increase in the second half of the game, in the event that the repair goes too fast, and the hooked and wounds of the survivors go too slowly.
What I've suggested in different threads is that there is a generator repair speed debuff that is active while the survivors are alive. This debuff would then disappear and be replaced by a repair speed buff each time a survivor is killed.
My hope is that it would reduce the snowbally nature of DbD and make more matches 2 or 3K instead of the 4K or 0K.
Realistically of course I have no way to test it to see if it would work but that's the theory anyway.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793019#Comment_3793019
bro arguing with himself? Nobody is saying any of these things but you dude..
Did you read the post I responded to?
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@Astel said:
I am tired of this "devs favor ~~side" statement. Can we stop this nonsense?
This is probably the best post on this entire thread.
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@sickdeathfiend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792803#Comment_3792803
"a significant minority, who are relying on tunneling"
LMAO, bruh. Every single match I've played has a hard tunneling killer with proxy camping. I can't take most of these posts seriously. Soloq survivor is a miserable experience and killer is so OP it's boring. (I used to be a killer mian but it's gotten so easy I just play survivor mostly now)
The reason I'm saying a significant minority is because I can only speak to my experiences and 26% of the games I just recorded had tunnelling in them. So a significant amount but not a majority.
If you have more than that then that's even more miserable than what I go through but I can only speak to what I personally experience.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792937#Comment_3792937
who said that? There is a difference between having broken perks and having handholding mechanics that remove your actual cognitive play, but you seem to literally twist my words to get your own narrative outta them. Broken perk leads to more meta abuse, handholding mechanics lead to literal spoiling of players.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792921#Comment_3792921
i don't have right to have that after carefully examining every match i ever played for the last 1 year as killer in pubs and actually manage to draw the line between it and scrims i played? Ok bro, believe in your own ideology.
Yeah because it was obviously much harder for Survivors when there was DH for distance, i-frames, permanent aura reading on the Killer, permanently sabotagable hooks, insta repair BNPs, working on gens with DS active, three second heals, infinite loops, etc.
Survivors are definitely being handheld and coddled now in comparison to when all of that existed.
Keep on believing that; I'm sure every fair minded and critical thinking person will agree with that.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792896#Comment_3792896
yes, average survivor skill deteriorated so much after all the unnecessary changes that were only meant to suit the "casual" players in the way to reduce cognitive involvement of the player into the game aka. spoiling players so much to the point they will expect their opponent to fully obey their imaginary community rules.
That's ridiculous. Keep on believing that then.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792656#Comment_3792656
It's more that you're missing the point again. The majority of the issue most likely lies with the strategy itself and yet you're attempting a 'git gud' discourse once again ignoring that the escape rates in the first batch of games was 45.3% which declined by over 19% over two years with the main change in the games being tunneling substantially increased and the overall escape rate between the two sets of data was nearly exactly the same once the games with tunneling were filtered out.
the majority of issue "most likely lies with the strategy itself" and then we have tunneled survivor getting 2-tapped in chases, going next on hook and actually wasting 90% less killer's time than a good survivor would do.
Why did tunneling usage and success rate increase even though anti-tunneling perks exist, but people don't attempt to realize those perks need at least some skill to use? You are making conclusions based on "research" on the level of a person doing winstreaks in pubs and looking only at killrates using specific strat for making conclusions. That's not how thorough research works.
Once again if you feel that is the issue you're more than welcome to post your own data set and videod of 100 to 175 games showing how you managed to get four random people to tank hits, coordinate hook exchanges, etc when you have never met them before, have no idea of their perks, can't communicate with them, etc.
first, you don't need to coordinate hits tanking and hook trades at all against average tunneling killer because they are quite easy to be fooled by a good survivor because they lack awareness of when to drop a chase.
A good uhooked survivor with anti-tunneling build will be able to buy your team 2+ minutes at which only thing you need to worry about is doing gens.
second, so here we come, we talk about randoms and never ever meeting them before. That literally makes it a player related factor. Why is my teammate getting 2-tapped in first chase? Why aren't my teammates doing gens when i'm successfully wasting 2 and more minutes of killer's time? Why are my teammates wandering around the map like some tourists instead of doing their objectives? Why should i blame balance around specific strategy because my teammates decide to act like "ohh, they're tunneling again, let's go next"?
The only balance related things i would implement are visible perk loadouts in pregame lobby and a lot more tightened up MMR system.
That appears even more so to be the case as the thread itself is suggesting BHVR use its own playtesters and investigate it themselves. Are you scared of it being investigated as you know it'll reveal it's an 'easy win' strategy? If not then there shouldn't be an issue with BHVR doing its own investigation and coming to their own conclusion as DbD is their own game and their major revenue driver so BHVR can make their own decisions as to what to do. If BHVR doesn't feel it's an issue they won't change it and, if they do, they'll change it as soon as they come up with a feasible strategy.
if they ever implement more handholding mechanics against tunneling, it will literally be same as with other ones like that: more revenue from selling skins, literal fortnite model of profiting :)
So riddle me why the overall escape rate for my games two years ago was 45% overall and has dropped to 26% overall now with it also being 44% overall if tunnelling and camping games are excluded but the actual escape rate for games where tunnelling games are solely considered is 7.69%? With the major change being tunnelling increased by 500%?
Had survivors "gotten gud" before but just got worse after even though the escape rate for both sets of time is the almost the exact same amount once tunnelling is excluded? Or is the problem that tunnelling is disproportionately effective? What makes more sense? People overall got worse in two years or that you're missing the point yet again and making specious arguments?
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792663#Comment_3792663
We killer mains have that too, but we at least have ground to stand on. I mean, what good perks are there anymore besides Rancor? Good survivors just power through everything else. Look at Dracula, who straight-up can't get them if they're good, the same as any M1. But survivors want to keep using bottom level statistics to decide what's good balance or not.
I agree with a couple points of your post but not all. Killer mains also have a victim complex and most Killer perks are not very good at all. That's one of the reasons why I posted against what Eruption was turned into during the Erupting Call of Overbrine meta. It was too strong especially in conjunction with the Call of Brine/Overcharge combo but neither side needs garbage perks to scroll through and the proposed changes, in my opinion, went too far. Why not a selected category of perks? Both Call of Brine and Overcharge seemed reasonably on their own during that meta; it was only when they were stacked there was an issue. Why not bump Ruin back up to 200% but also have it deactivate upon a survivor's death? Why not bump Pain Res back up to 25% on each hook but have it deactivate upon a survivor's death? Have them have better gen regression but have the regression disappear upon the death of a survivor.
However, the same applies to Survivor. Most Survivor perks are also garbage. The trend on both sides has been to depower perks. Also, as soon as improvements to solo queue are mentioned one of the inevitable hue and cries is "But what about SWFs and comp?" when the number of 4 person SWFs who actually work together seriously instead of just messing around is miniscule fraction of encounters. That pretty much is a cry to balance Survivors around the top while simultaneously giving Killers buffs due to the lower level performers.
In my opinion, perks could stand to be strengthened on both sides and there are different improvements that both Killer and Survivors could get. However, if people treat it like a competition by saying 'but what about this?' that only encourages an us vs them mentality that muddies the waters about what improvements could actually be made.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792663#Comment_3792663
A lot of them do, and the funny thing is they'll sit here and accuse Killer Mains of a) wanting to win every single match and tryharding to do it, b) having a victim complex whenever anything of theirs gets nerfed.
No, no. That's you, friends. You are the ones DESPERATE to 4 man out every game and having a victim complex when your overpowered crap gets deservedly and fairly nerfed. You're projecting.
It's time to stop projecting on Killers when you were the power role for 7. Long. Years, and nearly every single awful meta the game has ever had except one has been a SURVIVOR SIDED META with the exception of 3 Gen Meta. It's time to actually learn loops, learn how to use teamwork, and learn how to use your perks effectively just like Killers have had to for years. It's time for the training wheels and second chances and kid gloves to come off. It's time for you to stop boosting yourselves with perks the same way Killers had to stop doing it when 3 Gen Meta died. It's time to let you and your SWF have permission to lose and let MMR put you at a level you all belong in instead of being so carried, only the toppest tier of A and S tiers can touch you. It's time. It's time.
It's time to learn how to actually play the game instead of relying on your failsafes to save your butts. The exact same way Killers have had to do for 7. Long. Painful. Tedious. Years.
The problem with your argument is that the exact same thing (except for the length of time) applies to Killer. While Survivor did have crutches with pre 6.1 DH, release CoH, etc it's now the crutches are gone, that's in the past, and there are Killers, a minority but a significant minority, who are relying on crutches such as tunnelling as their failsafes.
Rather than being us vs them and attempting to bring up a past history that no longer currently applies it would be healthier if there were no crutches for either side so the exact same thing applies to Killers. It's time to learn the macro game, learn when to drop chase and when to continue, how to apply gen pressure, stop applying crutches such as tunnelling and put yourself in the MMR category you deserve to be at instead of being carried to higher MMR levels due to said crutches.
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@Skillfulstone said:
Quite frankly, it's easy to pinpoint some factors that increased (not created, there's a difference, tunnelling has always been in the game, it's just been getting worse) the frequency of tunnelling.
Almost every single gen-regression perks were nerfed, some of them might as well be useless (CoB, Eruption is literally a risk to use since the ill-thought-out regression limit and same goes for Undone) while most of them are merely decent (Pop post-nerf, Overcharge but only against newcomers/casuals, Oppression) and Pain Res remaining the best despite all the nerfs since it provides the best value for the least risk to trigger the regression limit.
Having less options for getting more time, especially for weaker/slower/M1 Killers, obviously incentivizes playing more aggressively to compensate. The best slowdown is a dead Survivor and it's only getting more true as options keep getting reduced.
Then, popular chase & non-regression slowdown perks, which were used to shorten chases, slow down healing or to get into chases faster after a hook, were nerfed into the ground over a rather short period of time; STBFL became worthless on some Killers and downright unuseable on Deathslinger & Trickster, Sloppy and every sources of Hemmorage and Mangled was put on a timer that decent Survivors ignore most of the time, Ultimate Weapon was killed off completely.
All those nerfs made Killer, perk and playstyle variety go down, encouraging tunnelling and proxy-camping to compensate for weaker/limited slowdown, anti-heal and chase power. This is even more true for Killers on the weaker end of the spectrum.
If tunnelling goes down (not disappear, that's impossible) it will be because even for weaker Killers and against decent Survivors, there will be either other viable options and/or incentives to not tunnel.
Your overall argument isn't supported, though, either by my Survivor data or my albeit anecdotal Killer experience. Tunnelling is not necessary to get a good win rate in public matches. I'm not referring to competitive of course but tunneling is not necessary for myself to have a good win rate and my data set showed that Killers who didn't camp or tunnel still had a kill rate of 56% overall. That does not imply anyone was struggling because they didn't camp or tunnel.
Specifics of your arguments are more nuanced as you made reference to specific Killers and I don't have the data to discuss specific Killers. As well, it's clear from observation there's a huge delta between the strongest Killers and the weakest Killers and my personal preference would be the delta be reduced by bringing more of the Killer roster closer to Nurse and Blight and not closer to Freddy and Trapper.
As well, the competitive scene is entirely different from public matches and that's something BHVR will have to consider as well. I can't change the code and I don't have access to playtesters so any suggestions any player makes is essentially just spitballing and brainstorming anyway. I wouldn't want to see the pain one group is currently experiencing simply displaced to another anyway but tunneling is unnecessary in public matches. I wouldn't want comp scene players, though, to end up suffering either so that might complicate the solution. I say might because I can't say definitively what the solution is because of the code and playtester factors I mentioned above.
Overall though and the problem with the incentives argument is that tunnelling is not necessary in public matter and, if there is no reduction in effectiveness in tunnelling, people will still tunnel and just use the incentives to make tunnelling more effective. DbD's history has shown that so the only way to effectively address the issue is to reduce the effectiveness of tunnelling.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
alright, let's settle some things.
Tunneling (camping too) got quite some nerfs in history, but somehow, every single one ended with literally no "positive" impact for average survivors on matches, even led to further decline of escape rates.
if any counter for a specific item/strat/character in any game gets buffed, even a 1% increase in winrate (escape rate in this case tho) would mean that the item/strategy/character has 50/50 chance that they were actually unbalanced. In this case, the escape rate is still in decline. That literally means there is something else that is actually the problem.
But here we are, following the "nerf tunneling" discourse again. Like we are clearly noticing that majority of problem lies in the players, but we still have to bring it up because we are expecting BHVR to give us wins on autopilot.
It's more that you're missing the point again. The majority of the issue most likely lies with the strategy itself and yet you're attempting a 'git gud' discourse once again ignoring that the escape rates in the first batch of games was 45.3% which declined by over 19% over two years with the main change in the games being tunneling substantially increased and the overall escape rate between the two sets of data was nearly exactly the same once the games with tunneling were filtered out.
Once again if you feel that is the issue you're more than welcome to post your own data set and videod of 100 to 175 games showing how you managed to get four random people to tank hits, coordinate hook exchanges, etc when you have never met them before, have no idea of their perks, can't communicate with them, etc. Until then you sound like you're just making a wild defense of a strategy you're afraid of losing as it gives easy wins and should take your own advice regarding your Killer play.
That appears even more so to be the case as the thread itself is suggesting BHVR use its own playtesters and investigate it themselves. Are you scared of it being investigated as you know it'll reveal it's an 'easy win' strategy? If not then there shouldn't be an issue with BHVR doing its own investigation and coming to their own conclusion as DbD is their own game and their major revenue driver so BHVR can make their own decisions as to what to do. If BHVR doesn't feel it's an issue they won't change it and, if they do, they'll change it as soon as they come up with a feasible strategy.
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@ppmd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792406#Comment_3792406
Yeah that's an interesting perspective. Nothing much to add besides I wish we could think of some concrete fixes because it's clear with things like 2v8 hooks that the devs want to try other solutions while being fair but maybe haven't gotten there yet.
I hope we do too. I have some ideas that may work but it's not like I can playtest it or it's going to be an easy fix. It has to be something that addresses the issue without being abusable and especially not abusable enough it swing balance too far in the other direction as that wouldn't be far either. It's not like any of the players can just casually rewrite the code and access a group of playtesters to measure how it works in reality so all I'm really doing is just bringing my experience to BHVR's attention so they can check it out themselves.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792055#Comment_3792055
And do you have data for this "increased by over five times" claim? I would love to see it. If you can't provide it I am inclined to think you just hit a lot of rough patches and are seeing these things where they aren't.
I agree the only good reason to tunnel someone out is if you are stuck where you have to tunnel or you're avenging BM. However I will add that it's probably also fine to tunnel if you absolutely need pressure THAT bad midround at 2 gens left or something and have to start a snowball.
175 Survivor games with accompanying videos and analysis with the first set of 75 games done close to two years ago and 100 games done over the last month. The first set of games done close to two years had a 5.3% incidence of tunneling and the most current set had a 26% incidence of tunneling.
The post below has the spreadsheets, links to all 175 games and a link specifically to the first tunneler I found in the current games so you can see what I consider tunneling in action.
@TheSubstitute said:
Here are the links to the data for those that just want to see the data and watch some mediocre Survivor play over the last couple years. DbD Survivor Game Data is from the current games. DbD Stats is from games that were about two years ago I think. The descriptions of all games show which video to look at if you want to see the video.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/EQHNXT3MT5NI/dbd-survivor-game-data.xlsx
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XVWHVOGM3952/dbd-stats.xlsx
For those of you that have the patience to read my very long post here goes.
I started an experiment because I feel that there has been a substantial decline in the quality of survivor games over the last few years and the amount of tunneling and camping has gone up substantially. Fortunately, a couple of years ago when somebody said nobody was enjoying solo survivor and I said I can’t speak for anyone else but I do the forum poster accused of me lying and being a killer main (when I’ve played Killer/Survivor 60/40 roughly for years). As such, I recorded 74 games from close to two years ago and I have a basis to make this comparison.
So what I did was recorded 100 games over the last three months so I could compare and see what the changes are. I didn’t record games during 2v8 as that was too popular and would have thrown off my basis of comparison nor did I start until after the anniversary event this year. Also if there were bugs noted such as being unable to unhook or I had to leave suddenly I did not include the session. The Excel sheets showing the stats and links to the YouTube hosting my videos are in these series of posts.
First before I start I want to clarify some definitions. Also please keep in mind that I understand that my experience is my experience and other people may have different experiences. I have an understanding of statistics and sampling so I’m not going to claim anything truly foolish like a poll out by a content creator directly applies to all regions and all MMRs in a game as large as DbD. I can only speak to my experiences.
Tunneling: This is defined as attempting to remove one survivor from the game over all others first. If survivors were swarming a Killer and someone just happened to be the first one out, or if a Killer just found a particular survivor first, that’s not tunneling. If a Killer tried to remove one survivor first but the survivors countered that’s still attempting to tunnel. The Killer just failed to do it successfully. People will also try to tunnel but just realize they’re up against a strong looper and switch to take a different person out first. That’s still tunneling. The easiest way in my opinion to judge is do they return to the hook and do they target the unhooked or the unhooker. I didn’t include it if a Survivor was specifically targeted in the endgame though.
Dbd Survivor Session 1 (youtube.com)
Auspiciously or not auspiciously depending on your point of view my first game when I started was against a tunneling Clown so you can see an example of what I consider tunneling in Survivor Session One in the first game.
Camping: This is defined as staying around the hook and the returning to the hook to hit either the unhooked person (also tunneling) or the unhooker (not tunneling). If the camping was after all gens were done I did not include it.
Slugging for the 4K: This was defined as trying to slug all survivors left to either complete the 4K to minimize Hatch chances or slugging at the very beginning to just knock all survivors on the ground to either bleed them out or hook them all at the same time to minimize any chances of Hatch.
As a sidenote if you do watch my videos please note I’m not a content creator so don’t expect editing or commentary. Two of my videos have managed to reach the dizzying heights of low double digit views (but less than 20 for each) so don’t expect too much. I’m also average as a survivor. I’m not claiming anything else but as that would put me in mid MMR my experiences are more likely to be similar to the majority of the player base as opposed to a comp survivor that would be in top MMR.
For the current sessions all the videos showing this are title Survivor Session (Number) and there were 20 sessions to get 100 games.
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@ppmd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792280#Comment_3792280
If the escape rate is 44% without tunneling, they'd need to buff killers a fair bit more to compensate if they want that 60% kill rate right? Because if it's 44% in solo then the escape rate would presumably be higher in a SWF.
Although I guess thinking about it more the SWF escape rate isn't much higher based on this https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/405382/new-stats-feb-15th-2024/p1
Also it's interesting to consider how much tuennling impacts those stats they release too.
Anyway, I don't think most killer players need tunneling to do well in the vast majority of games either. Part of the disconnect is a 60% kill rate doesn't seem to be satisfying to many killer players and they only want a 4K which seems to often to lead to a pulling in both directions situation.
Personally I don't mind tunneling as much as camping because camping isn't that interesting for either side especially if it's a killer that's strong at camping, but both seem pretty hard for people to deal with and they have big impacts on game outcomes. That's maybe why they are testing these changes like 70s hook timer.
Tunneling does seem to discourage a lot of new players from playing, so it might be good to change. But it also seems hard to change these things without reworking the game a lot which seems like a lot to do. Maybe UE5 will allow for more opportunities to experiment for both sides….It does discourage a lot of new players from playing; I definitely agree. I also added in my post I linked to Killers might need buffs if the desired escape rate is 40% and another of the issues with tunnelling is that the Killers who do tunnel are masking that from the dev team with such a disproportionately effective tactic by increasing kill rates so much it looks like everything is either fine or some Killers might need a nerf (when they don't in reality and the opposite might be true).
That negatively affects player retention moreso for Survivors but also for Killers although not as much. Some Killers might like the chasing but not want to camp or tunnel and a lot of the 'but Killers need to tunnel!' rhetoric might come from people who used tunnelling a lot and are now against Survivors that are so skilled they don't stand a chance against unless they tunnel.
It's anecdotal but I think that's shown in how there are examples of Killers with barely a hundred or two hundred hours who are winning games against teams with Survivors over a 1000 hours. The asymmetrical nature makes it more complicated but in what other game would a player with less than one-fifth to one-tenth the experience pull off wins against far more experienced players on a regular basis? This leads to situations where Killers are faced against Survivors that have multiple times the experience and then against coordinated teams who maul the Killer since their other game skills are underdeveloped for the MMR they're at. That's not a fun experience either.
As well, if Killers do need a buff but Killers needing a buff is disguised by artificially inflated kill rates due to tunnelling then that would also be very frustrating for new players. In the long run, if my data holds true to the playtesters, the only group that isn't disadvantaged by tunnelling being in the game is the ones doing the tunnelling.
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@Brimp said:
I mean effective strategies will be effective. But only as effective as the survivors allow it to be most of the time.
The second statement sounds overly broad and incorrect if it's implying that a tactic that requires substantial coordination, planning, cohesion and has a much higher skill floor to counter can be easily acheived by four random people with no communication, no knowledge of each other's tactics and whose counter strategy that requires far more skill to implement than the skill required to do said tactic (tunnelling).
If you want to say that a 4 person SWF can train themselves to counter tunnelling then, yes, of course they can but due to the different skill floors they require far more effort to do so than the Killer does to tunnel and they will experience significant failure at the beginning which could be the OP's situation.
If the second statement is referring to solo queues, who constitute the majority of survivors in public games if I remember correctly, then you're more than welcome to show how you can coordinate who will try to take aggro, tank hits, rotate hook trades and implement strategies that rely on perk coordination with three other people who have no knowledge of each other's perks, don't know each other, can't speak to each other and don't know what the other is doing while facing a strategy that will be successful if any of the four random people make a mistake of any significance whatsoever.
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@ppmd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792272#Comment_3792272
Interesting! I wonder if you can even compare changes to things like when "slowdown gets nerfed" or whatever to address these sorts of claims. I think trying to tie some sorts of correlations to the data could be useful, since it may be hard to know how to address these things otherwise.
I still think your original data and conclusion is important, just thinking about the future.That would be good. I don't know the exact date of the first data set but it was after 6.1 and before the removal of hook grabs, the facecamping timer, etc. It would be interesting to see if there was any correlation between perk changes.
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That could be one of the reasons it went up. It still doesn't change that a mechanic that unfairly advantages one side needs to be examined and corrected. Take, for example, the games where Otz had people play against Skull Merchant in the Erupting Call of Overbrine era and they couldn't break the 3 gen. It was an unfair advantage and got corrected. Another example was pre 6.1 DH for distance that unfairly elevated escape rates.
If my experience holds true to BHVR's playtesters then tunnelling is the same sort of situation and it provides an unfair advantage that needs to be corrected. Then BHVR can balance if needed. Based off of my experience I don't know if any changes would be needed as the escape rate was overall 44% in the games without tunnelling. It doesn't appear that tunnelling is needed and that it's more people say that because they want a win rate that is significantly greater than that of their opponents (which is the definition of an unbalanced game) and that's why they defend tunnelling.
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@ppmd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792209#Comment_3792209
Since you brought it up, what was the percentage of your games that had tunneling now as compared to before?
Do you think you'll do this again or anything similar? Really cool to see this since I had kinda wondered if it was the case but there's not so much evidence lol.It was 5.3% of the time I saw tunneling in the original set of games close to two years ago and 26% now. The reason for the nice, neat number is that my original data set had 75 games and my current data set has 100 games.
I'm probably consider something like this again later if I notice major changes. I now have two snapshots of what things were like over different periods of time so it would be interesting to see over a period of time.
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@ppmd said:
Neat data. I wonder how much other changes like map changes have impacted this, and I also wonder if you are including people giving up.
I'm curious if you standardized other variables in this, like time of day played or using the same strength of build? I don't think build matters much in solo, but if I am going to have better solo games they will pretty much always be during the day.Thanks, I didn't filter by maps or time of day as I didn't filter them in the first set of games awhile back either. I also played a mix of builds the first time around so I did the same the second time around. My guess is time of day would probably show a variation in frequency of being tunneled but I just stuck to my regular playing times. What I was more concerned with though was the effectiveness of tunnelling when I filtered results for just games with tunneling and saw there was only 1 survivor win (3E) and 25 Killer wins (3 or 4K).
I originally started this comparison to see how much tunnelling had increased; it was after filtering for the results I realized how much of an effect it had on the match.
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@Ohyakno said:
How do you define tunneling?
It's in the post I linked to along with a video sample.
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Friends Till the End, Nemesis, No Way Out, Rancor is a really fun combo if you want a lot of chases. As Friends Till the End makes a new survivor the Obsession and gives you aura reading on the new Obsession Nemesis activates and make them Oblivious for 60 seconds. As well, anyone who blinds you and stuns you during the endgame becomes Rancorable. Unless it's a horrible mismatch in your favour the gens will get done so make sure to hook everyone at least once for the endgame.
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@I_CAME said:
I almost never run into tunneling personally. In my last 200 games I think I have been successfully tunneled once. It was by a nurse who immediately blinked onto me after I was unhooked. Tunneling is the most overblown "issue" in the game and I can't tell if people really do get tunneled all the time or if it's an issue of perception. Granted I am a very experienced survivor main with 4400+ hours so I am more equipped to deal with it than most players. I do think that tunneling as S-tier killers is cringe but that's more of an issue with the killer itself being overpowered than it is an issue of tunneling. You're really shooting yourself in the foot by bringing that much anti tunnel. You'd be much better off bringing just one anti tunnel perk and replacing one of the others with something like we'll make it. My escape rate has sky rocketed since I started using it.
It's increased by over 5 times in my games over the last two years and the average escape rate when tunneled for all survivors in solo queue, with at least one of said survivors having at least one anti tunnel perk in every game was less than 10%.
That doesn't sound like an 'overblown' issue but more like a glaring issue that makes pre 6.1 Dead Hard and original Circle of Healing look tame in comparison.
The only 'reason' to tunnel in public matches is because you're dissatisfied with winning over 50% of your games or you've tunneled enough you're now in an MMR bracket that is above your skill level without tunneling. Doing it as revenge for BM isn't the most edifying thing but honestly I still consider it as more legitimate than the other two reasons.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
There are so many threads about this. Everyone stating that tunneling/camping is a problem but no one brings up the “why is it such a problem?”
First, when you have one chase that perhaps lasts for 60 seconds, and two gens pop simultaneously, now there’s some pressure. What is the easiest response? Get someone out of the game early so that there’s not so many people working on generators.
Tunneling accomplishes this. Camping does not.
With toolbox speed, limited regression, and the various perks that speed up gen progress, The mechanics are set up, so that tunneling is probably the only viable solution for most killers.
Think about it it’s not a hard equation. If you take one or two people out of the game early, there are less people to be popping two and three gens during the course of a chase.
Stopping chase for gen control is null and void because the game says they will complete the gen no matter what you do… unless they just aren’t in the game any longer to be able to do that.
The way the game is set up now is that the only true gen regression comes from removing those that are doing them. Tunneling becoming more prevalent is a consequence of survivor complaining which led to the changes that were made.
If we want tunneling to go back to being the few rather than the many then we need to make it viable for the majority of killers to play alternatively.
I have been tunneled in plenty of games, and I have experienced it much more in recent times than I have ever experienced it before. But I also know the cause of it. Just last night, I was with one friend and we joined SoloQ. Friend took chase, we popped three gens in less than two minutes friend gets first hook. I go make the save, killer back to hook, I bait, he ignores, goes right back after friend. I take a protection hit, does not deter him. Friend gets frustrated they’re being tunneled, takes second hook before the killer even thinks about coming after me. Other two gens pop in meantime. Now he returns to hook to camp. Random (Who never had Chase never even saw the killer never got injured, open doors and leave) I trade hooks so my friend can get out. This game went all of about 6-7 minutes.Post match: 2 brand new parts, 2 commodious toolboxes, 2 built to last. 1 prove thyself, 1 hyperfocus.
So I mean at this point, we are pretty much complaining that killers are doing something that they pretty much been forced into doing in order to have a chance.
It doesn't appear that you even read my post or considered the accompanying observations before posting the same stock argument (which isn't even valid as Killers have a 60% kill rate and win the majority of matches by design)
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I am sympathetic to to what you're experiencing but your only real option if you're sick of being tunneled and camped is to not play solo queue. The difference for the skill floor for tunneling and the skill floor to counter tunnelling is too great to expect that you will more than extremely rarely get a team that is coordinated enough to counter it and tunneling swings the game balance too much in the Killer's favour unless you're in a coordinated SWF that has prepared for tunneling for you to really have a chance.
You won't consistently get the level of cohesion and coordination needed to counter it if you have random teammates. Until it gets changed solo is only very rarely worth playing if the Killer tunnels.
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@Leonardo1ita said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790526#Comment_3790526
This argument is so flawed, that I don't even know where to begin to deconstruct it...
Tunnelling is a crutch in public games. If you've used that crutch enough you can't win anything without a crutch that would explain why you feel that way. It still doesn't change the fact it's a crutch though.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791033#Comment_3791033
It's unfortunately the same song and dance on these forums, pretty much everywhere.
People simply cannot handle the idea that they could ever possibly hit their skill ceiling. They're "Max MMR" gods at the video game, and losing a single game out of 20 is an outrage. It can't be their fault, it's that the game is broken.
My favorite, which is directly in this and nearly every thread where this comes up, is that MMR is broken somehow. It's not. Or at the very least it's nowhere near as broken as people want to claim in this context.
You touched on it briefly, but what's actually happening is that killers have way, way too many things that boost their MMR above their actual skill level. Camping, tunneling are the biggest ones, but we've also had things like gen kick meta and 3 gen meta that do the same thing.
Tunneling is far easier to execute for the killer than it is to counter for survivors, so killers can tunnel every game until they are literally up against survivors who know how to counter it. At which point, here come the posts about how MMR is broken. Entity forbid that killers not be able to win every game every time, or even just 60+% of the time.
You also have the "incentivize other play styles so killers don't tunnel" argument that came up, which is basically just saying "everything should have a 90% success rate for killer" in this conversation. That won't ever work and it's a terrible idea. We need more things like the +10 seconds to hook time that discourage tunneling by making it less efficient, but aren't abusable by either side.
This is also the other reason MMR is so complained about: because currently MMR is the only thing in the game that punishes tunneling every. Single. Match.
And some people hate that.
Very true. The other part with the MMR argument is that I started playing DbD during Emblem based matchmaking and the two sessions are close to two years apart. So, if during not only two years but the entirety of time there has been MMR, my MMR has not settled when exactly is it supposed to settle? In a decade?
As I mentioned in another post as well, the escape rate BHVR intended is reached or within the ballpark in the games where tunnelling and camping is excluded. It's not even in the same city as the ballpark when we look at the games with only tunneling and camping. It's pretty apparent where the issue is.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790756#Comment_3790756
The Elo system based on Kills/Escapes does not work for solo queue survivors because each individual Survivor cannot carry their entire group unless there’s hundreds to over a thousand points higher in MMR.I agree its a problem, but I think you're misdiagnosing it. Individual survivors can never carry by game design. Against soloq the most effective strategy is finding the weakest link and getting them out of the game.
And this is something that MMR can't really address, even if we presume it otherwise works. MMR can't tell what each individual survivors weaknesses are. Like I'm okay against Blight, but I suck against Clown, even though I know Blight is a stronger killer than Clown. If the killer finds that weak link, its basically game over for the survivors.
I think that part is fundamental problem with any 1v4 style elimination game without substantial redesign. Most games weak players can be balanced by the chance of having a particularly strong player or the other team having a weak player as well, it doesn't work that way in DbD.
Fourth, basing game decisions on games that include tunneling is unfair to Killers who don’t tunnel or camp.Not really unfair, if you don't camp or tunnel and that means you hang out at mid MMR, congratulations.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790758#Comment_3790758
Another way would be to introduce a repair speed bonus each time a Survivor is killed perhaps before a certain number of hooks.I think the problem with this is that it would be impossible to find the perfect number to balance it. If its too high, survivors don't even try and save their teammates, if its too low killers tunnel anyway and perhaps justify it more with 'you get that repair speed increase'.
I had an idea once, but it's probably too complicated to work. Basically, take survivors gen repair speed and set it to 0.75 of what it is right now (this would also deal with early gen rush complaints). Every time a survivor is hooked (not advances a stage, hooked), all other survivors increase by .25. However, each time a survivor is hooked they reset to 0.75.
Numbers are just rough ideas, and I think it would add too much complexity, but it would slow down early gen rushes and also help against tunneling.
It would be possible to, if you can’t code tunneling out of the system, to just multiply MMR gains if a Survivor dies before the fifth or sixth hook.I don't think this would work because I think a problem with the game is there are a lot more good killers than there are 4 good survivors ready to match them. Given the killer strategies are pretty straightforward and you don't have to worry about guessing at what your teammates are doing, it shouldn't take long for a killer to get decent at the game. On top of that the system needs to find 4 survivors for every 1 killer.
If you agree with my point please feel free to mention that BHVR should aggressively tackle this issue.I agree with you, I've just become more fatalistic over the last couple of years when I was more ready to suggest giant game overhauls. Unlike most games, DbD seems to exist more off player created rules. Like I've always found it weird that I don't run double Iri and an offering to help me every match, but I don't because that would be sweaty (if I was redesigning DbD, the addons system is where I'd start). The game was designed around concepts like this (and if you played Deathgarden it was even more extreme there, so its a design they like), where BHVR creates more of a sandbox and lets the community decide how to play.
Being that different metas and playstyles have developed in different regions makes this all much harder.
But, being I've typed this long: remove hook suicide attempts on the first two hooks, this would decrease the urge to rush to rescue the hooked survivor so they don't rage quit and make the 10 second hit off hook endurance a different endurance proc than things like Off the Record and DH. Wouldn't fix it, but that would be helpful.
I'd like a good solution as well which is why I put in different ideas. I understand, of course, that BHVR is the only one with the resources to develop a solution and playtest it and anything else is just brainstorming ideas. That's why I also suggested getting rid of MMR and using Emblems again. It's definitely not an ideal solution but I saw a lot less camping and tunneling with Emblems. I'm not 100% sure the Emblem criteria was the cause though as Survivors had a lot of busted stuff during the Emblem period and it's possible tunneling was just something busted that Killers could do that helped even the odds so maybe it was the change in match making criteria or maybe it was Survivors had busted stuff to help counter it?
As well, I came in at the end of Emblem based matchmaking so I've spent a far greater amount of time under MMR than Emblems. In any event though although Survivors did have a lot of busted stuff in the past that's irrelevant to the fact that currently Survivors have nothing that's busted. BHVR has made great strides in making sure it's fairer to face Survivors but Killers still have easy access to something that is busted. I hope it gets changed soon.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791192#Comment_3791192
Got to agree with this, you're data is giving insight what the majority of playerbase is experiencing on the casual end honestly. Thank you for sharing your feedback I hope the team read through it <3
Thank you, I hope it helps. I did it partially from curiosity and partially because I noticed people were bringing up the huge decline in playability of solo survivor games. I knew tunneling had gone up and games with tunneling were miserable but I didn't actually realize how bad it was until I looked at games with tunneling in them and realized the Killer won 25/26 games simply by tunneling. Hopefully BHVR checks or is checking to see if my experience mirror's other people's experiences, which it seems to, and then does something to help.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791262#Comment_3791262
My confusion is in the fact that people are implying OP is either lying about how often he actually escapes trials, his experiences aren’t indicative of general trends (despite his mirroring experiences shared by others), or that he’s not skilled enough at the game and is thereby failing to win. It seems to be everything but that there could be some sort of issue creating deep imbalances as he has suggested. I don’t understand why people bend themselves into pretzels to deny what’s true for OP. BHVR obviously monitors data closely, so if the rationale is that if people don’t really talk about camping or tunneling or low escape rates then survivors will never be buffed/killers will never be nerfed, that’s not going to stop anything.
The other part I find so silly about the bending themselves into pretzels for it is that close to two years ago when I experienced far less tunneling my escape rate was better than what BHVR intends at 40% but still in the ballpark. As well, when games that include tunneling and camping are removed from the data my escape rate and very importantly the escape rate of the other survivors is within the ballpark of the 40% BHVR intends. It's only when tunneling is included that the escape rate falls far below what BHVR wants to see and the largest difference between the two sessions is that the incidences of tunneling have increased substantially.
Another part that's silly is posters implying my MMR hasn't settled. Both sets of games were with MMR so, if after two years of playing regularly, my MMR hasn't settled when exactly is it supposed to settle? After three years? Five? Ten? I started playing DbD when there was Emblem based matchmaking so if there are people suggesting that during the entire time there has been MMR my MMR has not settled that's rather ludicrous.
My experiences are similar to those of other people in the thread as we've both noted. Also, as we've discussed earlier in the thread if people feel that it's so easy and the solution is to just 'git gud' they're more than welcome to record 100s of their solo queue Survivor play and how they managed to get three other random players they've never met before and can't communicate with to consistently show enough coordination and teamwork over multiple sessions to stop tunneling. Until they do they don't have a leg to stand on.
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@MrRetsej said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3787139#Comment_3787139
I'm not giving you a percentage. I gave you what I've observed, but regardless it is still anecdotal evidence. Given how fixated you are on percentages tied to subjective experiences, I'm lead to strongly question your motivation for bringing this topic up in the first place. It feels as though you're trying to lead the question, hoping for a result to support a preconceived notion. I could be off on that, but the way you're posing the question and consistently hounding people for "percentages" is not dissimilar to the behavior I've seen others use for the same sort of results.
Then you completely ignored the thread I made with hard data showing much I do get tunneled and ignored completely the fact it was asked to get a perception of what other people happens to them to instead try to cast aspersions.
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@Nazzzak said:
My escape rate has dropped significantly since 6.1 too. I like to joke that you're supposed to get better at games the more you play them, not worse. Goes to show that skill only gets you so far I suppose. The devs still control the process ultimately.
Thanks for sharing. It's nice to see a comparison two years apart.
Thanks, I appreciate that comment. And, yes, it's true. Skill can only take you so far but if the game mechanics are set up so the odds are very much stacked against you things will get worse.
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I did a comparison between other survivors escape rates and mine and explained in the posts above the flaws with your argument.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791033#Comment_3791033
why are people fighting you on this??
I have no idea. People always say post your games so I posted 100 games showing how tunneling is disproportionately effective against solo queue and compared it to another 75 games that were recorded about two years ago to show tunneling has substantially increased. That pretty definitively shows it's an issue in my experience. Despite getting 100s to possibly over a 1,000 more hours of experience of survivor and showing improvements in play my escape rate has been cut neatly in half while solo queue has gotten mechanical improvements from BHVR (status icons, basekit BT, etc) with the main change being I now see tunnelling five times more than before.
I mean it's not hard to figure out a tactic that requires coordination, teamwork and regular communication to counter is disproportionately effective against solo survivors with no communication and random teammates but some people just refuse to accept it.
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@Eelanos said:
I love the forum because people genuinelly tell you, absolutely straight-faced, that survivors deserve to get tunneled and camped if they don't spend a thousand in game hours training against tunneling and camping, and recording themselves to pinpoint their mistakes and comparing strategies with educational DBD youtube videos on how to counter tunneling and camping, just to counter a strategy that the killer did not require even a fraction of the effort to apply, just a "Should I tunnel today?: > [Yes] > [No]" choice they made on the spot.
Like, literally. If a 20 hour killer with no concept of what the DBD community is or what "tunneling" means decides to tunnel, a 1000h survivor has to die if they didn't spend those 1000h training to the level of tournament players. Because, you know, tunneling is not effective against them, so therefore the responsability on countering me is yours. It's not my fault the strategy doesn't require me to know what a hook state is or how to use my character's power. I literally just clicked you to death because you're bad and I'm not lul git gud
They also try to say tunnelling is necessary to win in public games when the intended kill rate for public games is 60%. It's not necessary. There's an argument to be made with the current balance it's necessary in the competitive scene and I defer to those with much greater experience there (they know the reality there far better than I do) but I'm not discussing the competitive scene. I'm discussing public matches with random teammates with a game that is intentionally balanced so the Killer has a greater than 50% win rate. There's no need to tunnel in public matches.
I also find it humorous how there are so many defending camping and tunneling who say they don't camp or tunnel but have enough of a personal investment in the issue they act as if their family is being held hostage and will be killed if they don't react with outrage to the suggestion that tunneling and camping might be bad for the game.
It's quite the dichotomy to be so incensed about something somebody supposedly has no investment in.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790977#Comment_3790977
countless practice reps in terms of countering tunneling? This is completely incorrect and you are literally trying to turn countering tunneling into some thermonuclear physics class
If you feel it's so easy feel free to post your 100 to 175 solo queue survivors games where you and your random teammates manage to counter tunnelling effectively.
Or, considering you keep on referring to comp, you could listen to the actual comp player who is telling you why you're wrong.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790898#Comment_3790898
I'm not the person you're replying to but I am a solo queue player. I disagree when it comes to the devs being killer or survivor sided. I don't believe they're either. I think they plan the majority of their updates well in advanced, and after survivors got the HUD update they decided to focus on updating killers for a time. It's possible that once they're done making killers feel and perform a bit better, they'll come back to solo queue. They did say awhile ago their goal is to bring solo queue closer to swf. So I'm hoping that's still the case.
And you know, if/when they do come back to solo queue you'll have killer mains coming here upset calling them survivor sided. Then when they update something for killers again they'll be called killer sided lol it's like clockwork. Solo queue may be miserable right now but I'm sure it won't always be. I just hope they're listening to the right feedback (survivor feedback) when it comes to improving survivor.
While I agree that the devs want to consider all player's fun I think there is a strong possibility that their data collection is flawed. I know you don't see much tunneling but my experience is substantially different and has gotten worse over the years (I just posted about it if you'd like to see the data and/or games).
For my experience tunneling has increased over five times in incidence over the last couple of years and has a win rate of over 90% when used at whatever my MMR bracket is (mid somewhere).
That high of a win rate used by approximately a quarter of players distorts the data and doesn't allow BHVR to accurately determine outcomes. Realistically BHVR doesn't have the people hours to look at the millions of games played and separate the games without tunneling from those that have tunneling.
What distorts BHVR's data collection even more is that the kill rate for Killers in my data set was a bit lower than desired when Killers didn't camp or tunnel. If that holds true for the majority of games and isn't just exclusive to my experience than any changes BHVR makes will ignore and create more pressure towards camping and tunneling.
For positive changes to be made for all players, which I do believe is BHVR's goal, they need accurate data. To get that data BHVR will either need to eliminate tunneling or somehow separate games with tunneling from those without. Until that is done, I don't have any optimism that any changes BHVR makes will have a significant outcome on the solo survivor experience.
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@Halloulle said:
Some of the responses are wild and so besides the point.
With how contentious the topic of tunneling/camping is, I actually find it really nice that there is a before-after comparison applying the same definition. "It's more now" and all that is just relative. - And while the definition might not be one everyone agrees to, it is consistent; so seeing that much of an increase is interesting.Speaking of interesting:
"Could that be due to DCs and Survivors giving up? It turns out that out of 18 games where there DCs and survivors giving up while the game was still winnable 13 of them were done when there was no camping, no tunneling and no slugging for the 4Ks. In other words, it was more likely a Survivor gave up or DCed when the Killer was playing in an enjoyable fashion. That I didn’t expect either."
There are a number of killers that change tac once a survivor DCs. Personally, I'm on the fence about this: sometimes I want a DC match to just end asap (cause really, having to watch a bot is… there are no words) other times turning the whole match into players just vibing and making the best of a situation does work and can actually be quite enjoyable and there's a silent agreement that everyone gets done what they want to get done in the match and then the killer gets to sacrifice the survs (except maybe if they have an escape challenge and can somehow communicate that). — Anyway: here it would be good to know at which point the DCs occur.I do agree: a particular playstyle by one side, leading to exceptionally good results for that side if used against a particular subset of players of the other side, is concerning. Especially if the 'solution' is "git gut" — cause that automatically boots you from that subset of players of the other side. Making MMR increase more if tunneling/camping is detected (lets ignore the technical challenge implementing this would pose for the sake of argument) is not the way though.
This is for two reasons: one is that "challenging MMR" isn't actually something that makes the game experience good; most people enjoy a mix of difficult and easy matches and MMR should facilitate that (if I find it I edit it in/post it in a later reply - it's a statement of one of the guys who did a lot of MMR things and I found his argument very compelling). The other reason is: DBD's SBMM doesn't actually use "strict" MMR; the soft cap is at a point where anything beyond that soft cap is still an extremely mixed bag. People in "medium"-MMR would probably see less suffering - people who are past the soft cap would suffer all the more though. Especially those that are barely past the soft-cap would get the extremely short end of the stick; as they're not actually super good but they still get matched with those who are on a regular basis.
I agree the MMR solution isn't the best. MMR is problematic in a game that is asymmetrical as Elo was not created to be used in an asymmetrical setting.
What you said about those that are just at the soft cap is good food for thought. If you're being placed regularly with people who are 200+ MMR higher than you you're essentially meat for the wolves. That's a terrible situation to be in and I wouldn't want a particular solution to simply displace the suffering onto another group of players. That wouldn't be fair either.
I have to admit I was completely surprised by how effective tunneling out a Survivor was in my own games. I don't tunnel or camp when playing Killer because I won't do to other people something I find miserable when done to me. I never realized it before until I examined the data but in the past I had relatively extremely few cases of tunneling so it never really stood out. I was not expecting that either. I knew it was miserable to experience but didn't fully comprehend how concerning it was.
The other thing that I found surprising is that, based solely on my experience as I don't have access to anything else, Killers at least at my MMR may need a buff or two if the goal is a 60% kill rate and the Killers don't tunnel or camp. An escape rate of 44% implies a kill rate of 56% which is lower than BHVR's stated goal. However, since tunneling affects matches so disproportionately the minority albeit significant minority of Killers that tunnel are preventing that from being considered for the majority of Killers who do not tunnel and camp. Tunneling is disadvantaging not only Survivors directly but it's indirectly disadvantaging the majority of the Killer player base.
Thanks for the food for thought.
Edit: Sorry I didn't throw this up above but the DCs happened in the first few minutes of the game. It's entirely possible that the Killer changed tactics as a response. I didn't consider someone who DCed because the Killer downed them for the third time multiple gens in as a DC because their DCing wouldn't affect the game.
Similarly if someone gave up on hook but only to give another survivor a chance for Hatch I didn't consider that giving up as it would have minimal effect on the game's outcome.
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@Alphamax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790805#Comment_3790805
Good. It's a design flaw. It can't be changed. They would have to make a new game. What don't you understand, mate? You could give everyone bells and whistles, give godmode after unhook for 99 minutes until the survivor repairs a generator, remove hooks so we play 2v8 in 1v4 but survivors can only do generators and no sabotaging hooks, flashlight save, etc. (Super boring btw)
You know code can be changed.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790804#Comment_3790804
hmmm
It's not apples and oranges though. There are people who like easy wins and can't envision the whole but instead favour one side in a show of tribalism. That's why it's apples to apples.
so, killers that actually adapted to average survivors, found what their weaknesses are and actually found a meta strategy to play against them in order to boost their killrates are the ones that want easy wins, but suddenly…survivors that refuse to learn how to learn basic counterplay to tunneling, last 20s in an M1 chase even though chase aspect favors survivor side a lot are the victims?
You know that, if average killer noticed that average survivor knew how to counter tunneling, tunneling usage rate would drop by a huge percentage due to killers realizing how situational it is?
You're still not accepting the different skill floors between knowing how to tunnel and how to counter tunnelling. You're literally like the Teens that defended how horrible Monster was in VHS and the Survivors that said 'just bait it out' to new Killers with pre 6.1 DH.
You want easy wins, I get it. However, there's a difference between believing only your fun matters and believing that the fun of all players is important. That's why I said I can't help you. If you don't want to accept truths because your bias stops you from putting yourself in other people's shoes there's no point in having a conversation with you as there is a fundamental mismatch in our basic positions. Unless you believe that more than just your fun indicates game health there's no way to have a productive conversation so have a good night.