TheSubstitute
TheSubstitute
About
- Username
- TheSubstitute
- Joined
- Visits
- 6,661
- Last Active
Comments
-
@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756882#Comment_3756882
It's definitely weird to see this really obvious contradiction in the popular narrative go unaddressed. Like, surely you can't hold both positions at once, right?
In another thread it was claimed that BHVR balances around tunneling but tunneling isn't common. That's another inherent contradiction.
-
@Murgleïs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756781#Comment_3756781
I was talking about queue times. People remember the +15min survivor queue time.
But despite all of that, you know that ? The game was somehow more fun. DH was broken but Ruin was good, PGTW was good, NOED was good, less aura reading for killers so you had to rely on game knowledge or BBQ (that was also played for bonus points !) promoting splitting hooks so less tunneling.
There was no base kit BT and hook grabs were allowed punishing survivors for stupid plays but at the same time it made real BT good and promoted team play.
Overall there was more mistakes to be made for all sides, but also more good plays. Now the game is autopilot.I won’t even start talking about SBMM, just read documentation about it, why it is used for player retention and how it removes all the fun.
Dowsey had a 45 minute queue for Killer. While I'm not saying that Killers weren't leaving MMR definitely had something to do with the queue times.
-
Here's my screenshot from my game I played during my lunch break. Considering how badly the basic tenets of sampling and using proper data have been butchered in this thread do I now get to claim that tunneling happens in 100% of games?
Note I even ran right behind the Claudette and body blocked twice in order to give the Killer an opportunity to not tunnel.
-
Survivors bleeding out being counted as a kill is effectively a punishment for sluggers. Eventually they'll hit an MMR where they can't compete and get humiliated during some of their games. The same happens with tunnelers and, prior to basekit BT, campers. It's not a reward to go up in MMR as you can't see the number, get no benefits from it, and just face sweatier opponents.
It's not a good solution as it's not fun for the Survivors in the short term nor is it fun in the long term for the Killer. It is, however, better than giving sweaty players easier and easier opponents.
-
My opinion, bring CoB back to 200% but it doesn't stack with other regression effects.
Bring Ruin back to 200% and have it deactivate on survivor death. Ruin Undying was a much healthier meta than the tunnel meta.
Revert Thano back to what it was.
Revert Overcharge but have it not stack with other regression effects.
-
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756384#Comment_3756384
The point is, BHVR is obviously never seeing tunneling as a "miserable" or anything, and the chances are they aren't even thinking it is that common, results in literally no fix coming
The boringnes of tunneling has been stated repeatedly, even from killers too, but BHVR literally has no interest in ACTUALLY "fixing" this problem
I think BHVR has tried to address it with incentives and doesn't want tunneling around. Friends Till the End, BBQ, etc give very little value unless you take advantage of the information and target someone else. Most aura reading perks (with the notable exception of A Nurse's Calling from many years ago) don't help you unless you target someone else. The Emblem system had BP and pip rewards that were diminished by tunneling and camping and the monthly rewards continue that incentive.
I think the main issue is that it's hard and requires resources. For example, with my suggestion it's bare bones. How much should gens slow down or speed up by? There's no way to guess without extensive play testing and in the meantime BHVR is still a corporation and needs to allocate resources to guarantee it's profitability in order to survive. I don't think it has anything to do with frequency as tunneling is far more common than 4 person slugging for the win and BHVR attempted to address that, albeit unsuccessfully, with its Last One Standing idea which never made it off the ground (no pun intended). If 4 person slugging, which is much less common than tunneling, is obviously on BHVR's radar then tunneling, which is far more common and more complained about, probably is as well.
The issue is how. No amount of gen slowdowns or perk rewards will stop tunneling from being more prevalent the higher up the MMR ladder someone goes. The optimal tactic in any team based pvp game has always been to remove a player from the other side while keeping yours. Here, only one side can lose players so what's the correct amount of incentives and disincentives ? That needs resources to determine and that becomes a matter of priorities. Player loss due to tactics such as tunneling is hard to measure but I'm of the opinion that BHVR does know that getting rid of tunneling would improve player retention but they're just unsure how to deal with it.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756265#Comment_3756265
Oh yeah the game is balanced around tunneling at the moment for sure. That's the thing, people just want tunneling removed, the end. What they don't realize is if it was removed completely it would come with significant killer buffs which I doubt any of them would be cool with.
It's not about just removing tunneling; BHVR has demonstrated fully they're balancing off of Kill rates and the current goal favours Killer. I have no issue with that; it's about having fun while playing. Being in a game with tunneling doesn't make many players want to play DbD; it makes them want to play something else. It should be a given that if Killer rates drop below BHVR's goal Killers will get buffs. That's a good thing. What's not a good thing, however, is the gameplay being miserable enough for one side that it makes people play something else.
It's why I missed a week of the anniversary event. Tunneling was prevalent enough that I didn't want to play Survivor and, when playing Killer, I didn't have the heart to kill anyone since the survivors I faced probably experienced the same as me. So I didn't like Survivor play at all and couldn't bring myself to play Killer as intended so I just played Stellaris instead. That's not a good sign for a game.
If I recall correctly you liked my suggestion about how to deal with tunneling which was a general gen slowdown while all Survivors are alive and a substantial repair buff when a Survivor dies so the ideal strategy would be to get all Survivors on death hook first so tunneling gets disincentivized and Killers also don't see 2 or 3 gens pop by the end of the first chase as often. That wouldn't need substantial general buffs to any side as addressing the core game systems would eliminate the need. I'm sure BHVR could come up with something that addresses game mechanics as well.
-
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3756230#Comment_3756230
"best" is overstatement, it's obviously better than past, but it will be same for survivors
Game has become fair, not exactly "leaning killer side" nowadays
A 4 man SWF at high MMRs has a 48% escape rate while the average survivor has a 40% escape rate. That's leaning Killer sided regardless if you want to see it or not. I'm not saying that's a bad thing as it's a horror game but there's no denying that's Killer sided.
-
It could be knee jerk inertia for some. For most of it's lifespan DbD was leaning survivor sided and now it's leaning Killer sided. There doesn't seem to be wide spread recognition of that on the forums and people tend to knee jerk reactions (instead of realizing that this is the best it has been for Killers overall and that puts a greater weight on dealing with issues for survivors that are caused by Killers).
Some of it, as well, is people not accepting that more than one thing can need changing at the same time and that it is possible for both roles to have issues that need fixing at the same time.
-
The main issue, in my opinion, is dehumanization expressed as not considering your opponents as other human beings worthy of empathy, not attempting to understand the other person's experiences, and being quick to justify people's own behaviour and dismiss others.
As an example, let's look at the a summary of arguments made for tunneling (which many dislike) and being teabagged (defined here not as an attempt to communicate but rather an attempt to taunt or insult a Killer which many also dislike).
Tunneling: It's just a tactic to reduce survivor efficiency so I can win and it's fun to win. I'm not responsible for the other side's fun. If people don't like tactics to encourage Killer chances or are overly offended by being tunneled they shouldn't play competitive games.
Teabagging: It's just a tactic to get the Killer to chase me so we can win or just fun to do. I'm not responsible for the other side's fun. If people don't like tactics to encourage Survivor chances or are overly offended by being teabagged they shouldn't play competitive games.
At its basic, they're the same picture as per the meme.
This doesn’t happen very much in real life as people with that attitude quite quickly don't get asked to return to play. They're labelled bad sports and not invited to return.
With video games, there's an unfortunate tendency for people to dehumanize the other player since there are very few consequences to not doing so. For a game as large as DbD it's not going to just die rapidly as what happened with other games such as VHS that didn't consider the fun of one side, you can always just queue for another match and not have to worry about the people whose fun you just ruined, and you never have to see the people involved.
Getting rid of the cruelty would just require that players treat other people just how they would want to be treated. That's a lot easier said than done though unfortunately.
-
Friends till the End, Nemesis, Rancor, No Way Out. I think that's my favourite general (as opposed to Killer specific) build.
-
@Hex_Ignored said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755050#Comment_3755050
Well, I think he's the ugliest male survivor we currently have in game and his injured/wiggling noises are imo the most obnoxious and annoying ones.
Jeff's noise is part of his charm. He's sort of like using No Mither but for trying to avoid Killers.
Meanwhile in the Fog Dwight shouts:
'Damn it Jeff, can you go to the other side of the map? Your breathing is too loud for us to hear the industrial strength, backfiring generator!'
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755254#Comment_3755254
It was a rhetorical question, for the record, I already knew that there isn't really anything left for survivors to abuse without bringing specific tools.
That's why it isn't a double standard to talk about it that way, it's just true. The problematic survivor stuff DOES require tools and DOESN'T come up in many matches, whereas the problematic killer stuff (at least the stuff being talked about) doesn't require tools and at least CAN come up much more frequently.
Saying that doesn't mean both shouldn't be addressed, they both should, it just means that the shape of the problem is different and the shape of the solution would also necessarily be different.
Cool, thanks for explaining. I agree.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754104#Comment_3754104
Okay, but you've got to actually demonstrate that to be wrong for it to be an unfair double standard.
Broadly, though, it's true. Can you give any examples of problematic survivor behaviour in this vein, that doesn't require specific tools, that would require some kind of nerf?
Killers can tunnel and camp without any tools. Slugging too, but slugging isn't a problem in that vein. In order for that to be an unfair statement to make, you'd need to demonstrate that survivors have some kind of equivalent problem that doesn't require specific tools.
The basekit stuff that survivors could do to abuse things have been pretty much removed (infinite loops, locker flashlight saves, etc). I think that's a good thing. Now the things that are left require specific perks and offerings and have been weakened (eg Boil Over and map offerings). The only thing that could be considered basekit that needs looking at would be off hook bodyblocking. I'd rather basekit BT come with no collision detection for both sides sake.
The basekit stuff that Killers can do to abuse things have been weakened a bit but not removed (tunnelling and camping) or are unchanged (4 person slug for the win).
I don't know if that helps with your question or not or provides any clarity to anyone but, in my opinion, there is one basekit item left on the survivor side to look at and three to look at on the Killer side (although if tunnelling were taken care of my opinion is that would also eliminate any camping issues).
-
@CosmicScarab said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754841#Comment_3754841
Saying I don't believe you or I think you are exaggerating, or there is a negativity bias at play because no proof has been provided is not gaslighting, and it also is not gaslighting to say that someones definition of tunnelling is incorrect and differs from the agreed upon definition. It is absolutely absurd to say that someone is psychologically abusing you and manipulating you by disagreeing with you or correcting you.
Okay, if you disagree with the definition we can use a different definition. Here are our two positions from how I understand it.
Me: A video by a content creator with a Twitter poll that only reaches his followers does not meet the basic standard necessary to claim that tunneling is not common at any MMRs except high MMRs for a playerbase in the tens of millions spread out over multiple continents. It is not possible to say tunnelling is uncommon (or common) based off of such limited data. Tunneling being common at high MMRs as it's the most optimized tactic means people at other MMRs may tunnel if they want to improve their MMR and this would suggest it's used more as MMR increases but there is not enough data to say that as a certainty.
You: A Twitter poll by a content creator that only touches the creator's followers and was done only in English is sufficient to draw a widespread generalization to tens of millions spread out over multiple continents. A survey done in one language that only reaches the audience of one content creator is sufficient to make such a broad generalization. Although high MMR as seen in competitive games is a tunnel fest as it's an optimal tactic it's not used frequently in low and mid MMR. People attempting to improve their win rates or their MMR won't use optimal tactics enough that tunnelling is common at any MMR but the highest MMR.
Would that be an accurate summary? Because the people attempting to say tunnelling isn't common or defend it sound a lot (not exactly of course but a lot) like the people who defended pre 6.1 Dead Hard. In fact, one of the main reasons given for nerfing pre 6.1 Dead Hard was that it was used more frequently as MMR increases and this suggests it's overtuned.
If you're trying to say that, with the data available, that you can't draw a conclusion on whether tunnelling is common or not and that people can't speak to more than what happens to them then we're in agreement and this thread (which is titled: You don't get tunnelled frequently: it's your own bias) is complete bs and denies what other people are saying happens to them without any actual proof to the contrary.
-
@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754841#Comment_3754841
My complaint about the gaslighting claim is that B is not what actually happened here. From what I can understand, Pulsar said "Killers tunneled in a sample of 6 out of 7 survivor games", the games were asked to be looked at and provided, and the general consensus is that actual tunneling - execution or even intent to remove a survivor from the game - did not happen in any of those games. Hence the "no, it doesn't", because now it looks like the term tunneling is being applied incorrectly.
That's different than if there had been no vods and everyone just assumed tunneling didn't happen because "that's not what happens in my games."
I don't agree with every single thing that's being said in this thread… but if I said the killer slugged me in every game, and then I showed some games where the killer left me on the floor for eight seconds to kick a gen before they hooked me, you shouldn't trust my claim any further because my definition of slugging is clearly wrong. Or if 'wrong' is too subjective, then watered down to a point where it's meaningless and certainly no longer denoting unfun or unfair gameplay.
I'm not referring to Pulsar's games. Pulsar's games were a distraction tactic by the OP who set up a discussion in bad faith. I'm referring to the general, overall game.
Edit: Please also note I stated a definition of tunneling that was different from Pulsar's on at least three different posts.
-
@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754642#Comment_3754642
downs you 4 minutes after unhook, patrol, and a failed chase
'Filthy tunneler'
Reductio ad absurdum fallacy comes to mind here.
-
@CosmicScarab said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754663#Comment_3754663
As long as you are being disingenuous and calling everything gaslighting there is no point in having a discussion.
Do you feel that this:
Person A: This happens to me a lot
Person B: No, it doesn't. Even though I'm not you and have no understanding of what happens to you I'm going to say that doesn't happen to you even though I have no proof that it doesn't.
represents gaslighting.
If you don't think that's gaslighting I'm more than happy to use another term. This is pretty ironic, though, considering we would be arguing about a definition of a word in a thread where the OP's argument rests on saying there's only one interpretation of a word (well, that and incomplete, faulty data) and multiple people have stated different definitions that meet the overall criteria of 'Killer attempts to remove one survivor from a game before any other survivor'.
If anything, it should help illustrate how flawed the OP's argument is .
-
@CosmicScarab said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754474#Comment_3754474
You can claim it is gaslighting or any other buzzwords you want to throw around but if you define something incorrectly, especially when a definition was given in the OP people are not "gaslighting" you by saying that definition is incorrect. For example, if I claimed that a bully squad is any squad that has a flashlight or person running flashbang, regardless of how they use them, someone then saying "Hey, that isn't what a bully squad is." is not then trying to gaslight me, they are trying to correct me.
Your other points though:
(1) You can't rely on self reported tunnelling rates, as people may lie, or, more likely, misremember and have a negativity bias and will remember the games where tunnelling took place more often and forget the ones where nothing negative happened. It's the exact same thing that happens with people reporting that every game they have bully squads or super coordinated SWFs. If you have any sort of proof that tunnelling is super common you should present it, because no one has presented anything with any sort of actual evidence it is as common as some people believe. Scott in the video linked did 50 games and had hardly any tunnelling, and that is more evidence than anyone else has put forward that I know of.
(2) I actually don't think tunnelling is fine in every circumstance, I just think it is overstated in how common it is. My personal experience lines up with Scott's, being at around 5% of games, but my self reported experience doesn't matter for much as I have no proof for that. As for the unfair advantages though, this is an asymmetrical game. Each side is going to have easy strategies and things that are easier to pull off than they are to counter. That's a given in any game where things are not the same on each side and if anyone has a problem with that, they should probably not being playing an asymmetrical game.
OP did ask what his definition of tunnelling was, but seemingly never got a chance to agree or disagree with that before the games were done. Either way though, I don't really care about that as I am not the OP, all I'm saying is that is not what tunnelling is and it is pointless to have a discussion if you're going to try and have a different definition than what is in the video in the OP, especially given that it is the vastly agreed upon definition.You do realize that Scott's video means nothing? It's a group of games from one person that is representative of Scott's experience over that particular time frame and nobody else's. Attempting to extrapolate that to a group of people as large as the playerbase of DbD spread throughout so many countries would get you a failing grade in any first year statistics course. It's not evidence at all.
You're also reading more into what I said than I actually said again. I never said tunneling was common or uncommon; I said nobody except BHVR had the analytical tools to determine if tunnelling is common or not. That is most certainly not a claim to the incidence of tunneling; it's a statement that I don't have the data. I do see a fair amount of tunnelling but, once again, I can't speak to any but my own personal experience.
Also, if someone states their personal experience, of which more than one person has stated they have experienced high levels of tunnelling, and you say 'nah, that didn't happen to you' that is gaslighting. Once again, you're focusing on the videos given after the OP set him up. The statement that 'It's an objective fact that tunnelling is uncommon' with no proof to the contrary and telling people they didn't just experience what they just said that's gaslighting. And, once again, saying tunnelling isn't really happening applies to more than just one person.
What is more relevant, however, than Scott's video is the fact that tunnelling is extremely prevalent in competitive settings. As MMR increases more optimal strategies have to be used. As there are far more examples of games being played in competitive settings than Scott's set of games in the video I can infer that tunneling is common at high MMR and that people may use that at different MMRs more frequently than spreading hooks as it's a more optimal strategy but I still can't say anything definite about the incidence of tunneling overall since I don't have the data and competitive games still aren't a wide enough sample. That data thing is important if you're making a broad reaching claim.
You do realize your answer to 2 could also have been used to support the abomination that was pre 6.1 DH, infinite loops, instablinds, etc? Perhaps those should be brought back as well and if people don't like it maybe they shouldn't play asymms, right? It's just an easy strategy, correct? Sort of like what happened with VHS because Monster had a hellishly high skill floor in comparison to Teen. Or, maybe since DbD is now leaning Killer sided as opposed to the Survivor sided it was for the majority of its existence it's time to start looking at the unfair stuff on the Killer side of things of which the most egregious example of what's left is tunnelling.
-
@CosmicScarab said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754415#Comment_3754415
Did you watch the video linked in the OP? Because there is a definition of tunnelling laid out in the video, "…going after the same person until they die.". If any definition is going to be used, it should probably that one.
I don't think anyone is moving the goalposts or gaslighting by sticking to the original definition that was in the OP. It also isn't gaslighting to say someone wasn't tunnelled if they show videos of them not getting tunnelled according to the definition in the video.@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754430#Comment_3754430
I think he is trying to gaslight others by calling others gaslighting, heh
No, what was said by @Neaxolotl and I quote was "Come on, there's no denying the fact that tunnelling isn't common in practice" That's gaslighting and disingenous. You have no way to tell if tunnelling is common or not over the entire DbD community. You have no reliable statistics, no reliable data and no way to garner that data.
You're just focusing on a definition of tunneling that's different than mine because you're gaslighting and don't want to admit to yourself. I can't speak for anyone else but I see tunnelling defined as a Killer trying to remove a survivor first over any other quite often. I'm saying that's my experience but I'm not gaslighting because I can't speak for anyone but myself and I can't say if it's common or not either. Unless you can get the data, which you can't, you can't say that 'tunnelling being uncommon is an objective fact' because it's not and saying that it is an objective fact with nothing but your opinion is gaslighting.
So rather than deflect because you can't actually rebut my argument please feel free to answer my questions directly.
(1) How can you speak for other people when you have no reliable data and say tunnelling isn't common when people say they specifically get tunneled a lot? How is doing that not gaslighting?
(2) If you think tunneling is fine which part of 'Tunnelling has a lower skill floor than countering tunnelling; and if one side has a lower skill floor to accomplish their goals than the other side that represents an unfair advantage' do you disagree with?
So rather than both of you gaslighting further by referring to a definition of tunneling that doesn't match mine why don't you answer my questions?
On another note, regardless of your definition of tunnelling, it's also pretty disingenous and deceitful to ask someone specifically to give a definition, ask them to record videos of that experience, and then say after the fact that you didn't agree with the definition to begin with instead of stating that at the beginning. @Pulsar gave his definition and went through in good faith while the OP acted in bad faith and is now saying that doesn't count. That's pretty duplicitous. I'd say Pulsar was gaslit because the OP did not act in good faith and had no intention of letting Pulsar make a point.
But, aside from that, rather than pointing to things I didn't say in an attempt to gaslight further feel free to answer the questions I asked above. Please don't try to gaslight more by pointing to things I didn't say as that's also pretty disingenous.
-
I'd estimate about 80% of the time I see a Myers it's a Tombstone Myers. So I assume Tombstone and locker jump until I'm proven otherwise.
-
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754410#Comment_3754410
The fact is, the act of "tunneling" is never a smart play, but rather a determination to kill specific survivor, there was never a time it is called "tunneling" when "smart switching" happened, there was never a time it is called tunneling when killer decides to hook a body blocker or unhooker, the reason is simply because in all those situation survivors that are on death hook has enough time to heal up, hide, do gens and all that
All you guys seems to be moving the goalpost and literally trying others to believe as if tunneling had some other meaning before, which is just false narrative and nothing more than that
The fact is, his definition was simply incorrect, majority of his game don't have any real tunneling, this is literally just correcting the wrong usage of words
I'm not moving any goalposts nor has my definition of what tunneling is ever changed. You can argue over the definition of tunneling with @Pulsar all you want and both of you are just as equally valid to have an opinion on it. The only goalposts moving I've seen was the OP telling Pulsar to post videos and then disagreeing at the end result what tunneling is instead of at the beginning.
It is gaslighting to tell people who do experience a lot of tunneling they don't actually get tunnelled. You don't know what their experience has been as you're not them and you can't speak to their experience anymore than they can to yours. Nobody knows what the actual incidence of tunneling is since the only entity that could get data over all players is BHVR and they're not doing it.
Unless you disagree with those last two sentences then this entire thread is just a giant gaslight and telling people who say they see tunneling a lot needs a lot more than a 'well, that doesn't happen to you because I say so' to not be gaslighting.
Also, if you think tunneling is completely fine explain what part of '(a) the skill floor to counter tunnelling is much higher than the skill floor to counter; and (b) a much lower skill floor for one side but not another is an unfair advantage' do you disagree with?
-
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754358#Comment_3754358
I don't even understand if your post is pointed towards me, or someone who claims two hooks is a tunneling, funny
It's pointed at you but not just you. You don't get to say what another person's experience is. According to this thread, it's not attempting to tunnel if you focus on taking one survivor out but also down the unhooker for easy pressure and then hook the unhooker if you can't get the unhooked survivor.
It's also not tunneling I guess if a different survivor bodyblocks chokepoints so the Killer can't get to the survivor they want to down and has to hook someone else.
It doesn't seem like it's tunneling either if, in one game I recently had, I get two hooked while the Killer is chasing me but all gens get done in that time and the Killer switches to someone else to try to get a kill with NOED in the endgame instead of chasing the already wounded survivor who was looping away from the exit Hamed.
I guess it's somehow not gaslighting either to be 'Hey @Pulsar, give me your definition of tunneling" "That's great, now show me your games." "Watches games". "Hmm, now that I've seen your games I'm going to say I disagree with the definition and your games don't count and not saying that at the beginning isn't deceitful nor disingenous in the slightest"
To me, tunneling is attempting to remove one survivor before any others but, if you're smart about it, you'll realize when it's a losing proposition and switch or the survivors will counter the tactics. If the Killer stops because they're not mindless and realizes they were losing that doesn't mean tunneling didn't occur. If the survivors counter the attempt to tunnel that doesn't mean tunneling didn't occur. The definition of tunneling given by those who are saying it's not common is essentially the Killer has to be a single minded bot who can't hook more than one survivor at a time or it's not tunneling. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?
As well, it's gaslighting to speak to another person's experience. You can't say what the majority of anyone else's games are since you're not that person. Also, the supposed data supporting the OP is ludicrous and would get you disciplined or fired in any profession that uses statistics. I just had ten solo games where tunneling was used in four of them. Do I get to then claim that tunneling is in fourty percent of games? No, because that's baseless to say that it represents more than my experience on that particular night. It would be beyond ridiculous to claim that extrapolates to all MMRs in all regions. I could ask if you think it's only 10% or less of the time feel free to tape and post 200 solo survivor games and we'll see how often you get tunnelled but that's also silly because the sample size is too small to extrapolate on anyone but you.
The reality is that there are no stats on tunneling, only BHVR possesses the tools to get accurate stats they're not doing it and this entire thread is nothing but a gaslight. It's not even addressing the issues with tunneling which are:
(a) The skill floor to counter tunnelling is much higher than the skill floor to tunnel; and
(b) That represents an unfair advantage for one side up for the majority of skill levels
The whole frequency thing is nothing but a gaslight as well because if, for example, BNPs 10% of the time repaired a gen from 0 to 100% would that be fair because it's infrequent?
So, yes, this thread is full of gaslighting. It's not just you though.
-
@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754285#Comment_3754285
Of course you can disagree with any definition and make up your own at any time, just that 99% of players understand "tunneling" as something that revolves around ignoring any other survivors and confirming kills
Come on, there is no point in denying the fact tunneling is NOT common in practice, it's just an objective fact, accept your bias
I think I've seen more gaslights in this thread than I would have if I were taking an evening stroll in Victorian London
-
@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754122#Comment_3754122
At all times meaning without lapse. As in if a Killer scares a Survivor off of a gen, somewhere another gen is always being done. At all times, under any condition there is a gen being repaired. There is never a time not even once in the match (except for the beginning) where all four survivors are doing something other than at least one of them being on a gen.
Idk does that help clarify it a little bit? Like the match never has a moment where no generators are being worked on (except at the beginning), not even for like 5 seconds.
That sounds like normal gameplay if you want a chance to escape though at mid MMR and above. It's also why I strategically slug a lot as Killer (my downs are normally double my amount of hooks) as if one person is unhooking and one person is picking up a slug gen progress is stopped for a short time while I set back gen progress. (And my chase skills and meta strategy don't atrophy)
If you can't keep at least one survivor on gens at all times it'll probably be a 4K. That's why I think it's so hard to define; it's practically a requirement at mid MMR and above to keep a hand on gens at all times to stand a good chance of a 4E (unless MMR has completely dropped the ball and mismatched a Killer with new chase skills against experienced survivors or a tunneling and proxy camping Killer has just reached an MMR where their reliance on tunneling and camping stunted their chase skills enough they're now at the point where all the Survivors are better at chase than the Killer).
-
It's hard to define because there are so few things for survivors to do. If you're not unhooking, healing or in chase what else is there to do? Chests are paltry blood points and, even with a full chest seeker load out, still don't give great items. Boons are mildly useful but not anything to write home about. Unless your perks are focused on getting benefits from cleansing totems cleansing is usually a waste of time. So what do you do besides gens? Look at the map you've seen hundreds of times?
Besides, as you rise in MMR your tactics are forced to become more tactical and optimal if you want to keep winning. That's why Killers that care about winning are forced to tunnel and do tactics that are not fun for Survivors. With an MMR system the opportunity to try out new things and meme perks diminish unless you're okay with taking more losses. Unfortunately, too many people put their ego into video game performance so they're usually not okay with trying something that may be more fun but less optimal and more likely to create losses.
So, at what time does it become gen rushing and what point is it just simply optimal to play like that?
-
So, if you're the Killer is focusing on you to the exclusion of anyone else, but has to change targets because they can't find you or so many gens are popping because the Killer is taking so long to chase the wrong target, it's not actually tunneling. Cool, so all we need to do is redefine the definition. That'll definitely take care of all the issues and make the player base happy.
I'm also glad to see that since tunneling has a much lower skill floor than what is needed to counter tunnelling people just need to play better and that's not an issue. In that spirit we should revert Brand New Parts to when they completed a generator 100%. I mean if you can't find a survivor before they use the BNP the problem isn't that the skill floor to complete the gen was just lowered substantially it's that you just need to play better and learn how to locate survivors. It's not that it gives an unfair advantage over one side; just get good. And who cares if you're having fun because only your fun is important and not the fun of both sides because that makes for such a healthy game and improves player retention.
The arguments supporting tunneling are so flawed it's unreal. DbD has had a lot of really unbalanced stuff like instablinds, infinite loops, hit validation pre 6.1 DH, maps being changed so Boil Over can't make you unhookable, permanent sabo, etc that were nerfed because of the detriment it had and how little fun it was to one side. It's tunneling's turn now to get the same treatment.
-
@adsads123123123123 said:
This argument that average mmr survivors are tunnelled significantly more is largely unfounded because it assumes that high mmr survivors play exclusively with high mmr survivors and killers. This is false. Matchmaking is very loose. There will be many matches where a high mmr survivor is teamed with terrible/low mmr teammates and against baby killers. If tunnelling was significantly more frequent at average mmr, this would have been seen in the data posted, but tunnel rates were very low across all data sets. It also assumes tunnelling is less frequent at high mmr, but there is no evidence for this. If we look at the top level (tournaments), tunnelling occurs extremely frequently, suggesting it is more frequent at high mmr.
You're completely missing the point.
First of all, you cannot infer that lower MMR people get tunneled less frequently because higher MMR people get tunneled a lot. There is no correlation whatsoever. You're drawing an inference simply because it suits your bias.
Second, the only inference that can be drawn is that tunnelling is more common in competitive settings. This suggests that, out of all available tactics, tunnelling is disproportionately effective and/or high end play requires that in order to be competitive. Unless the devs envision tunnelling as part of normal gameplay that suggests balance issues. Both Killer and Survivor needs to be looked at to determine the full story.
Third, if you feel Scott Jund's video and poll represent all games you are very sadly mistaken. Just talking to people from different regions shows people reporting wildly different experiences. There are players in regions that report very little tunnelling and players in regions that report lots of tunnelling.
The other points you're either not considering or ignoring is that
(a) The skill floor for tunneling is much lower than the skill floor to counter tunnelling. This is an issue. A now dead game, VHS, died because at it's core Monster had a much higher skill floor than Teen.
(b) Being tunneled is not fun. People who are not having fun playing games stop playing.
If, in an FPS, for example I was given a gun that did 200% more health damage than yours would I be right to say you may not face me that frequently so it's all okay or would that represent a balance issue?
As it is, you're the player arguing that op gun is all okay as long as you're the one wielding it. If there is a tactic that is much harder to counter than it is to implement then it represents a balance issue.
-
@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753224#Comment_3753224
So, you're one of those people that think you get tunnelled every match? Upload your gaming sessions for proof. Thanks.
Posting anything still won't help your lack of understanding of sampling. Nor does it change that, in a competitive setting, Dbd is essentially a tunnel fest. People tunnel because tunneling is disproportionately effective for the skill and effort required.
-
Another so-called experiment that means nothing. Unless every player in every region and every MMR has the exact same matches it's not representative of the larger whole.
With how people over extrapolate it's no wonder BHVR is reluctant to release statistics.
-
@Unusedkillername said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747250#Comment_3747250
That's moving the goalpost.
You stated that there's no aura reading perk you can't adapt to, and when I highlight a number of perks that a solo survivor cannot avoid, you switch to 'well, they're rare picks so who cares?'.
Doesn't change that these perks invalidate stealth and the associated perks. You said you could adapt to it, so adapt to it. Killer has Floods of Rage, or Darkness Revealed, or any other intel perk. How do you adapt to it?
yes it is you win the argument that you cannot counter a bad killer running a bad perk on that killer.
Do you still think that really justifies distortion?
it does not.
I made one mistake, it does not validate your overall point so its not quite the burn you thinkActing like this is some 'stars align' thing is really disingenuous too. These perks don't have bad pick-rates and are decently high up on the list.
On the killers they are used you can still counter them the stars align point if for when you cant because its on a killer that its bad on and therefore its unforeseeable.
This kicks your argument in the shins too, buddy. How can Distortion be a problem if these aura reading perks are never picked?
I never said they are not picked I said they are bad.
Because they are… you get better results bringing slowdown and until slowdown is nerfed to the strongest aura perks level they will still be weak but picked because people do not like looking for survivors. It's the only reason I run them it cuts out the least fun part of the game at the expense of running a weaker build but then there is a perk that punishes you for doing that. When want to win a game for whatever reason I run full slowdown.
Its a dumb perk and nothing you have said has proven me wrong on this after days of posting. If you have a silver bullet use it because i am getting fed up of this waffle. I am rudely calling your posts waffle because unlike rulebreaker I don't really have to think that hard about dbd to write these replies hence my one slipup statement that even then does not prove your point because you are trying to justify the existence of a perk that turns off aura reading buy using 3 low tier aura perk of example so I don't think you have played both roles enough or understand dbd well enough.
I will only reply one more time because you still have not justified distortions existence which is what i keep bringing up
No offense but I think @Firellius quite handily won the argument; you just refuse to see it.
-
@CleanseThis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747046#Comment_3747046
why would I run those when it doesn't synergize with a lot of killers? Killers have unique abilities and use perks to go with them. Survivors are just skins.
Aura is already nerfed when one perk can outright counter it in its entirety and no, don't suggest gearhead because I only have 4 perk slots and am not going to run it just "In case". Also, having 3 tokens and only 3 is not useless, it directly counters Lethal which is argued by some as an unhealthy perk…
It would be useless unless you're in favour of giving Aura Reading perks 3 non replaceable tokens or greatly increasing the activation requirements.
It is possible to find survivors without aura reading and stealth is part of the game. What do you think Killers did before all of the aura reading perks became so common?
-
@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747133#Comment_3747133
I mean they didn't really break any pallets considering it was a Nurse.
Okay, that's a strange map offering for a Killer to play; that's just why I asked.
-
@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/J1S0F2KXS5OL/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/EKEWGNAVW5AQ/image.png
Yeah I'm done with this event. It's literally EVERY game at this point.
I'm normally a completionist when it comes to challenges and cosmetics but I'm over it.
Why did the Killer play the Game? Do you know? Was it a break pallet challenge or something?
-
@CleanseThis said:
My problem with distortion is that it hard counters aura reading with no activation requirement other than existing. Lethal at the start of a match? Nope. Find, chase, down and then hook a survivor to activate BBQ, that's gonna be a big fat no again. How about one more time find, chase, down and then hook. Nope 3 strikes and your out. I don't care about whataboutisms or endless go nowhere scenarios people like to provide. This perk in its current state is unhealthy. It should be reverted back.
That would make it useless in present day DbD unless most aura reading perks were severely nerfed as well. If you don't like Distortion run Spies in the Shadows or Whispers.
-
@SkeletonDance said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745402#Comment_3745402
True, but sometimes it's 3 regressing gens if no one is working on them and that saves a lot of time from traveling and kicking gens
It's a great change but the only way I think it will become meta is if a whole bunch of other perks get nerfed into oblivion and it's superior to its now nerfed competition (which is definitely possible).
-
When I play survivor I only solo queue. That pretty much cries out masochist.
-
@Junylar said:
Pro tip: teabagging the killer drastically increases the chances of slugging in the endgame.
Definitely 100% but I never teabag, hate the practice and I'm seeing something similar.
-
The issue I have accepting a lot of the arguments I see here is that I do use Distortion a lot. What I do even more often than I use Distortion is, once another survivor is on death hook and I'm not, I get between the Killer and the survivor on death hook, body block and do everything possible to get the Killer to hook me so the survivor on death hook gets away. Hook states are a resource and any time a survivor is killed while another survivor wasn't on death hook the survivors have lost resources and the chance of a 4K has increased.
What Distortion does is that when I'm on death hook I can't be tunneled out as easily since I have to be found without the advantage of aura perks first. Killers that are trying to tunnel aren't going to switch targets and spread hooks just because they can see a different survivor's aura.
I also haven't noticed Distortion users being not helpful in matches anymore than survivors not running Distortion. Out of the most recent matches I've had I don't remember any cases of the 3 dead, Killer had 9 hooks scenario where the person who acted as if they had been hooked instead of someone else their computer would have exploded being Distortion users.
It could be a server area problem as I can't speak to anything but my experience but what people are describing as Distortion users sacrificing their teammates hasn't happened to me any more than survivors that don't use Distortion.
-
@Mortecaii said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742914#Comment_3742914
Sorry, I believe I meant to reply to someone else.
No problem, thanks for the clarification.
-
@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742657#Comment_3742657
Doesn't that apply to you? Are you a reality warper? If so please warp reality so people stop complaining about every little thing.
On a more serious note, who decides what's broken? I don't think pop is broken before or after nerfs. Don't think pain res or grim embrace is either. Windows? Nope. Distortion? Same answer. Do you think they're broken? That's fine but you can't force anyone else to think that.
Can you please be a reality warper? I'll share half the winnings from a lottery ticket if you can warp it into a winning one.
-
Not really. One's a verifiable fact where the practice of teabagging came from and the other is somebody ascribing a motive to somebody with no evidence, no way to ascertain the intention and when the practice being called toxic has been used throughout human history as a way to show good sportsmanship.
Is it possible a person could try to mock with it? Of course, somr people are jerks. However, if somebody wanted to mock you, why wouldn't they just say 'gg ez', 'you suck', 'wow, you're terrible' or far worse since that's not only possible but has no repercussions for doing so.
From your 'it goes both ways' that brings up the question as I wasn't citing you specifically about teabagging but now I'm curious. Do you teabag or defend teabagging your opponent? If not, then are you agreeing with my point about how logically inconsistent it is to both defend teabagging and yet call a practice that has its roots in sportsmanship and showing respect to your opponents toxic?
-
@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742427#Comment_3742427
Well, if you don't want to address anyone bette use the indirect "one/someone" instead of the easily misunderstood "you". (Something I am also guilty of.)
Also please talk don't about millennium as if we would know what the custom standard was beyond the last 100 years in general and 30-50 years for gaming. It comes across as strange.
Also, also from my pov it comes across as unempathetic to not take into consideration the feeling of your opponent. I would bet you money that for example the Brazilian soccer players that lost 7:1 a few years ago didn't want to hear ANYTHING from the Germans that stomped them.
Getting beaten hard is frustrating and nothing ones opponent says will help with that, except if that opponent is a close friend or something. Especially int he moment immediately after the defeat.
So taking your opponents feeling into account is more important to me than to give the image of sportsmanship and "force" it on others.
And lastly this whole thread is about one-sided stomps and toxic matches which op specified in their third paragraph.
Not close matches that could go either way. Those are fun and GG's from either side are valid.
Well, if you want to ignore history and pretend we don't have any idea that's your choice. It's also a poor argument on your part because unless you're stating DbD has been around for decades you're conceding that there is far longer of a history of people showing good sportsmanship by wishing their opponents well than DbD has existed.
As well, I started my post stating some of the people who are saying gg is toxic have defended teabagging and then after establishing whom I was referring to used you to refer to the people I had already established I was talking about. If you want to ignore English grammar that's your choice as well. Just don't expect your lack of historical knowledge or not reading how my sentence was structured properly to not weaken your argument.
Also, you don't speak for everyone else. I like a gg after any match. Everyone I know feels the same albeit that's in real life competition and other video games. While that's anecdotal I would suspect that since the position that 'gg' is toxic after a match is an unpopular one that more people prefer it than not and there's no way to tell what another person is thinking.
This is just my opinion but I think feeling 'gg' is toxic comes from people who have way too much of their ego tied up in a video game, don't handle loss very well and that's why they feel attacked when someone is most likely just trying to be respectful to them. Losses occur in life and the better thing to do with a loss is analyze what you could do better and then move on without a second thought.
-
@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742239#Comment_3742239
Why ask the op when they haven't said any of that?
Do they agree with that?
I can say for me I hate teabagging more than anything and think GG's from the winning side aren't respectful or sportsmanlike depending on how the match went.
The OP has 14 posts and I already know you hate teabagging. The chances I was referring to either of you is infinitesimal but I'm not going to call out people specifically.
I disagree with your stance as, in every competitive activity for millennium, the standard for sportsmanship has been to tell your opponents it was a good match win or lose. You can feel differently and obviously nobody can tell you how you feel about something but if as an entrenched custom in any competitive activity for millennium people have been saying 'good match' or something similar to their opponents as a sign of respect the odds are the person saying 'gg' to you has no ulterior motive and is just showing sportsmanship.
This is especially true in a game where your opponent could, if they wanted to insult you, call you trash or pathetic, say you should uninstall, say the game was easy, etc and unlike any in person competitive activity receive no consequences for it whatsoever.
So, if the standard for sportsmanship for millennium has been to say the equivalent of gg and anybody in DbD who wanted to make fun of you could say hateful and vile insults with no repercussions whatsoever what are the chances the person saying 'gg' is actually trying to mock you? I'd say it's pretty low.
-
If I remember correctly some of the people saying that gg is toxic have defended teabagging as no big deal. So simulating an act that refers to sticking one's genitals in an unwilling person's mouth as an act of sexual dominance is just 'crouching' and 'pixels'? But saying 'gg' when the standard in sportsmanship for literally millenia has been telling your opponents 'good match', etc in competitive activities throughout the entire world is toxic?
Do you not see the logical inconsistencies with that?
-
@Mortecaii said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742188#Comment_3742188
Well, as I said, It's only "respectful" when the loser said it first, otherwise, it just feels like passive aggressive gloating.
To you perhaps. That's probably not how the person intended it and as you already know your take is an unpopular one there's no way for your opponent to know that's how you feel.
-
It's a sign of respect for your opponent the vast majority of times regardless of who initiated it.
-
It's pointless for the devs to do that. The people who are watching who want to slam the devs will:
(a) find an excuse to say the games don't count; and/or
(b) ignore that a 2200 MMR player will be better than over 99% of the playerbase but will still look like a chump against a 2800 MMR player.
Calls for this remind me of when I would point out that a few months after Knight's release it was possible to win the majority of matches in public games without 3 genning, camping or tunneling since the matchmaking was so loose. The people arguing against it would say the survivors aren't good etc and ignore that after close to six months of over an 80% win rate these are still the survivors I was matched with.
I wasn't arguing tournaments or anything like that but, during that time period, matchmaking was loose enough that it could happen and a random selection of games showed that.
The issue is that people look for other reasons other than themselves a lot of the time when their own play is normally a part of their loss the majority of their time. That's not an insult as some people take it; it's just a fact of life.
Their own gameplay isn't the only factor the majority of the time either but it is a factor. I generally find that calling out things like the devs are doing this with DbD on a regular basis generally implies the person who is doing so likes putting the blame for any losses on external factors entirely instead of considering what mistakes they could have made and trying to improve.
So why would the devs do that? There are enough people employed by BHVR that there is probably is a few high MMR players there but, even if they were the best, nobody who was criticizing the devs as whatever side favored would accept the matches anyway. It also reminds me of a Nurse player who said Nurse was too easy for him (and honestly I would have thought he was hacking if I hadn't seen his gameplay as he was amazingly good) and people would say that the survivors weren't good. He was just showing that matchmaking wasn't giving him challenging matches and was probably better at Nurse than 1 in 1,000 people could ever be and yet people still sought excuses.
You can't convince closed minded people. It's would just be a waste of time.
-
@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734439#Comment_3734439
That's why with our current roster of aura reading perks like BBQ and Friend's til the end, killers aren't still proxy camping and running immediately back to hook right? "Okayish" = 1/8th coverage of most map with 4 items on the ground.
Why would you think Killers that proxy camp and run back to the hook would ever use BBQ and Friends? Those become two dead perk slots with that strategy.
They're better off with four gen slowdowns which is ironically what you're saying is preferable to having to play without an item.
-
You get hit by DS when picking up a survivor and bodyblocking can turn matches around. Having your first kick attempt thwarted isn't as impactful. Also, some Killer players don't like to kick gens and the perks that make it pointless to kick gens reduce the number of Killers that kick gens. Nearly every Killer that isn't effectively AFK hooks survivors.