SirCracken
SirCracken
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@NuclearBurrito said:
Oh and to verify I'm actually getting value out of my build, I've faced several streamers while playing and made sure to watch their vods each time.
Sure enough each time I had at least 1 if not several moments where the streamer was broken and waiting in front of a blocked gen or just running around because they realized they couldn't heal like they wanted to, or have them want to heal, be unable to and thus work on a gen, and then get jumpscared by me and immediately downed because working on a gen injured against ghostface = death.
I believe you. But I think having to create a specific build on certain killers just to make a perk worthwhile only cements how poorly designed it is.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
Forced Penance can give a surprisingly large amount of value. Specifically it instantly gives the maximum amount of anti-heal value possible for that 60 seconds.
Let me explain:
- Anti-heal perks only come into play if the Survivor wants to heal. And a good Survivor (we don't care about bad Survivors) will only heal if doing so is worth the time it takes to do so
- Since Survivors do heal when no healing or anti-healing perks are in play, that means that in general 32 seconds on a gen isn't worth as much as a health state, since it takes 32 seconds of gen time to heal (16 seconds * 2 Survivors = 32 seconds).
- Most anti-heal perks increase this value, so obviously the more time spent healing then the more value you get right? Not quite, because:
- If a Survivor chooses not to heal when they otherwise would, that means you just got the most value possible from anti-heal perks. Any further slowdown is irrelevant because they aren't taking the slowed action, however any less slowdown is also less value because if they slowdown is small enough for them to go through with the heal, then that means the time spent is still worth it compared to just completing the gen, meaning that healing is still preferable.
- By breaking the Survivor you've forced them to not heal. This means you've effectively slowed their healing speed by exactly enough to convince them not to heal, whatever number that happens to be. As I've previously established this is the most value you can possibly get out of an anti-heal perk
So all of this is to say, broken is the best anti-heal method possible and if you don't value broken then that means you aren't running a build that cares about anti-heal.
That said there is still the OTHER part of the perk, specifically it's prerequisite of a protection hit.
This is also fine. A protection hit isn't nearly as situational as you'd think, even if the Survivors aren't going out of their way to take them. This is because sooner or later they have to unhook each other. And hitting a Survivor while they are unhooking is a protection hit, and if the other Survivor body blocks with BT then that's 2 protection hits. But even if they don't it's not rare for a Survivor to unhook with you nearby.
There's also Survivors healing each other, you hit the healer and they become broken.
Injured Survivor works with a healthy one on a gen? Hit the healthy one and bam, broken.
The great thing about protection hits however is that the timing is also when the effect is at it's most value. You don't care about anti-heal if you are going to hit a Survivor and then down them. And a Survivor that just took a protection hit is the most likely Survivor for you to not go for a followup against. After all you have a 2nd injured Survivor to chase right there so there is no time wasted by just continuing to chase them. And the rare time someone body blocks the hook they will likely be long gone by the time you actually hook the person, so chasing them would be tricky too.
Anyways, the real trick with the perk though comes down to the Killer you run it on. There isn't much point in running the perk on a Killer that doesn't value anti-heal. Max value on those Killers doesn't say much. What you want is to play a Killer that Survivors would really want to heal against as much as possible.
That means Oni, that means Nurse and Spirit. But most of all, that means Stealth Killers. The Stealth Killers are by far the best Forced Penance users. They can force protection hits the best by ambushing grouped Survivors as I mentioned above, they really like hit and run playstyles and as a result staying injured against a stealth Killer is an awful idea and thus they get a ton of value out of this perk.
The build I use this on is the following:
Ghostface
Forced Penance - just explained
Whispers - helps me pinpoint Survivors if they try to go immersed, which they sometimes do to wait out thrilling, and saves time patrolling which is very important.
Surge - The perk is only good on Ghostface because the way he downs makes all of the prerequisites met pretty much every down. But it helps snowball and saves time kicking gens which is important
Thrilling Tremors - Forces the broken Survivors to not complete gens for awhile and pinpoints them if they try. Either way a big win for me, much more value than normal
I get a lot of value out of all 4 perks each match and I get the most value against the hardest teams too.
The main problem I have with this is that good survivors won't bother healing at all, even against stealth killers. All they need to do is run spinechill and remember where the nearest loop is. The time spent not healing, although it might be advantageous since the survivor is more vulnerable, is just converted into time spent on gens. The thing that killers don't want survivors to do.
It's why I listed the perk as being so bad. Sloppy Butcher and Killer add-ons that apply mangled do a far better job at wasting survivors time since if they do decide to heal it will always be longer than usual. But with FP, not only is procc'ing much harder than simply injuring someone but it doesn't even slow survivors down. If anything, it indirectly speeds up gen progress.
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@malatruse said:
The usefulness of Thana in't just to slow down gen speed, but to scare survivors into hopping off a gen to heal, and their heal time is also slowed down. I guess it's more of a useful perk at lower ranks, whereas more experienced survivors might hop back on gens instead.
As for Retribution, if you run it with Thrill of the Hunt, you'll either know where survivors are cleansing or have them revealed. You could also run it with Haunted Ground like you mentioned. I think half the power of retribution is the threat of it, though. I actively avoid cleansing vs deathslinger out of fear of Retribution.
Pretty much. Higher skilled survivors, (sometimes higher ranked by rank is meaningless now), rarely waste time healing and just do gens.
My main problem with retribution is that its a hex perk that its weak if used by itself. A perk that can be permanently removed from the game should not be weak unless combo'ed with other perks that can also be permanently removed.
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@OldHunterLight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1508199#Comment_1508199
I meant that on your description of the perk above says that it heals faster sorry for not explaining what I meant.
Ahhhh. I understand you.
I just corrected it. Thanks for pointing it out.
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@Dustin said:
Regarding Cruel Limits I really want the perk to be good but I'm conflicted on what it should do. You pretty much need to pair it with something like Tinkerer to do anything and at that point is Cruel Confinement even doing anything for you. It's also very map dependent.
One of two things I'd like to see tested for the perk.
Either
When a generator is completed all vault locations within 32 / 44 / 56 meters are blocked for 60 seconds
OR
Cruel Limits now affects pallet locations meaning the entity will block off any pathways where a pallet is for that duration.
OR
Survivors receive a debuff and if they were within 16 meters of a completed generator all vault locations they are nearby will be blocked for a duration of 60 seconds. Essentially a bamboozle that follows the survivor.
Personally and ideally I'd like Cruel Limits / Cruel Confinement to be as so.
Your ties to the otherworldly manifest when your prey attempts to get away.
Each time a Generator is repaired, all Windows, Pallets and Vault Locations within a radius of 28 / 32 / 36 from the completed Generator are blocked for all survivors for the next 40 seconds.
The main changes is instead of the time scaling and the range being static instead the time is static and the range scales. The big issue with this is most of the time it's too situational because when a generator is completed usually the survivor leaves the area anyway and it's also FAR too map dependent. This would make it more reliable overall as both the time and range are increased. It can still only proc 5 times because only 5 generators can be completed.
I'd argue that it should work at pallet locations whether the pallet is thrown or not but again that part is debatable. It's still a weak perk no matter what because think of it this way. Even if it blocked all pallets so you can't even throw them likely the first time it procs it will be a dead give away to the survivors because the killer will be chasing someone else. Usually 2 gens proc by the time the first chase ends unless the survivor messes up. So in reality you're only getting 2-3 uses out of this perk tops. It needs a bigger range to be consistently decent and worth picking up. Even if it had a range and duration increase and also affected pallet drops it would still be a bad perk. Because again it relies too much on your positioning and being lucky.
Admittedly I'm not really sure I agree with killer location but at the same time it's a better buff than this perk staying as is. It just doesn't seem like it would be what BHVR intended for this perk to do. Then again it's doing nothing now so..
Regarding Predator
What if Predator allowed you to see scratchmarks through surfaces within 12 meters? That way you can see when someone decides to leg it behind cover. Keep the current part of Predator where it brings scratchmarks together but also give the scratchmarks visibility through walls when close to them.
I'd rather it block all windows for 30 seconds and destroy all dropped pallets within 18 meters of the killer when a generator is popped.
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@OldHunterLight said:
Doesn't coulrophobia make healing slower? For the rest I agree though.
It does. But unless the survivors are dumb they won't heal within your terror radius, and rather go to a safe distance and then heal.
The only reason they would commit to a heal was if they the killer was getting downs very quickly and slugging. Meaning the only way they could help up the downed survivors was likely in the killer's terror radius.
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@Mozzie said:
I'd agree with all you wrote with the exception of Thana, I think it's in a pretty decent place. Get lot's of play by streamers and red rankers. Very good on killers such as Plague. It also has actual synergy with nurses calling, which is bizarre because almost none of the killer perks actually feel like they have decent synergy. They did a goob job when they made nurse. Omni was too powerful but IMO she got overrated a lot.
I guess having a more-or-less permanently broken survivor team with Plague or Legion can make it decent. But the action speed penalty is still very low.
I don't blame a lot of streamers for using it since it seems good on the surface, but not so much in an actual game.
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@APoipleTurtle said:
It's a pretty solid list of a bunch of underwhelming killer perks.
Though I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on how you think these perks could be buffed to make them better/more fun (excluding the ones that only need shorter cooldowns such as Thrilling Tremors and I'm All Ears).
Just off the top of my head:
- Predator should make scratch marks turn blue the older they become and show the direction that the survivor was running at the time. It also should not prevent scratch marks from forming on walls.
- Forced Penance should act similarly to MoM, but usable. After 2 protection hits, hitting a survivor will insta-down them.
- Hex: The Third Seal should make survivors oblivious.
Are there any specific perks you'd like changed?
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@yobuddd said:
Fully agree on everything here except MindBreaker. It may only have a 3 second exhaustion, but when you chase them off the gen, they typically RUN away, so the exhaustion doesn’t reduce as long as they’re running. This can be enough for them to miss their critical sprint burst, dead hard, or lithe when they need it most. Once they realize what’s going on, they still have to stop running mid-chase to cancel the effect.
If you sneak up on a survivor on a gen and they don't have any breathing room during the chase, then yes. But all it takes is a few idle seconds before or after dropping a pallet to make the exhaustion go away.
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I would definitely be in favor of this.
God knows that his add-ons need some tweaking. Particularly the ones that increase his movement speed while stalking. Why are they even a thing when peaking a corner is the fastest way to build stealth. Not to mention that the cooldown reduction add-ons are a thing.
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I'll admit that it's a fun gimmick build. But in terms of usefulness, you should just 99% people and pop them before the down so you can save the perk slot that BOP would have otherwise taken up.
What do you think of the rest of the list btw?
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@Todgeweiht said:
Agree with most of them except MoM
MoM is criminally underrated. Learning how to properly use it is the equivalent of learning how to properly play nurse for survivor. Once you have mastered its use its basically as good as the old OP MoM we had before the rightful nerf
I ran a build with Breakout + Saboteur + Mettle of Man + Dead Hard. Trying to get protection hits without throwing the game, mainly by trading with the killer if they're carrying someone that has less hook stages than me. Aside from being a a full squad with comms, I don't see how the perk can be useful unless a Legion decides to multi-hit you for some reason.
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@FFirebrandd said:
So a few things I'd like to say.
Firstly pretty much all of what you've said is accurate.
Secondly someone could easily make a nearly identical post of the terrible Killer Perks.
Thirdly I would say Red Herring is situational, but actually very powerful when it works. Sending the killer on a wild goose chase after a phantom Survivor can do a lot of damage. Killers who fall for it could easily end up wasting 10-15 seconds and they simply can't afford to waste that kind of time.
I'll get on that list I think.
I believe you when you say that actually having the killer waste that much time is useful. But It's just so rare for that to happen when using the perk.
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I actually agree with this. Some objective variety is long over due.
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THE BUBBA TRAIN HAS NO BRAKES
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@johnmwarner said:
Normally teabagging, clicky click etc doesn't get to me as killer it's whatever. But tonight karma came back to bite someone who tried to BM me.
Long story short, dominated a team as Wraith had 3 kills and no gens complete so the hatch race begins. It was really the last place I looked, and Jake found it before me but did he leave? Nope he was on hatch teabagging so I could see him leave and therefore prove his superiority in a game he managed to do nothing. Apparently he didn't know Wraith could close hatch while cloaked so.......
"ACCESS DENIED. KEY REQUIRED."
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@Zeus said:
We'll see how he plays out before we come to conclusions. They've changed a few things. Let's wait and test it ourselves.
I don't think there's going to be an awful lot to test.
Simply by Billy having a heat meter his power is going to be limited. Even though he is the least worthy killer in the game to get a nerf.
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@SCP_FOR_DBD said:
Sorry, this is a joke post right? I got trolled earlier and am now second guessing everything.
Internet Explorer is craftier than it looks.
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I think that add-ons giving her more stuff to play around with, similarly to Freddy's dream pallets, would be an excellent idea.
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Although I agree that having dead survivors count towards the perk is a good buff, I don't see anyone mentioning how terrible Thana is as a perk. I have no idea why so many people run it.
With everyone injured, gen repair times are increased by a mere 12 seconds, less if more than 1 person is repairing. And heal times are increased by a W H O P P I N G 2.5 seconds.
The penalty to action speed is too small to make any meaningful difference. Even when playing as a killer that can keep people injured like legion or plague.
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@Name_Unavailable said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1480546#Comment_1480546
Problem is killers see Unbreakable as toxic perk, Same as DS if survivors use it they would be called trash. But if they don't Killers like you will blame them for not using these perks to counter toxic killers behaviors.
So "entitled idiots" survivors are blamed either way i guess.
It's not Unbreakable on its own that most killers see as toxic. Its combining it with other meta perks, mainly DS, for a massive advantage with no downside.
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It does not matter how well made the graphics are.
If dbd's balance remains the same, it will continue to a clown-fest with serial killers running around boxes and survivors holding down their left mouse button for minutes at a time
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I'm going to judge the state of the game on its own as I feel comparing it to earlier versions of dbd is overly generous.
Most killer powers, perks, and especially add-ons are not viable against high-skill survivors.
Almost every single survivor perk is either meta or just plain bad.
Most maps are either overly large, have extremely save loops, or both.
Survivor objectives are still boring.
And the balance team is so out of touch they might as well be an alternate dimension communicating from a levitating bunker in the stratosphere.
Basically, the state of the game is awful. The good parts of Dead by Daylight are nowhere near good enough to overshadow the bad.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1478583#Comment_1478583
Most of my mark downs in general happen while still in stealth.
That's generally the best way to get downs as Ghost Face.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
Meh. The best way to use the camera is to down them from stealth. Using beast of pray takes too long anyways.
If you can't reliably get close enough to stalk and then go for a hit, then the camera becomes useless.
From using this build I've found that bloodlust kicks in either just before I hit someone or as I reach them in a loop.
Don't get me wrong, it's still gimmicky as hell. But it made an otherwise useless perk somewhat helpful.
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@DaKnight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1478542#Comment_1478542
I'd argue it could be somewhat useful on bamboozle+bleach Clown or Freddy. Either of those are the best bloodlusters in the game. Freddy especially since his main weakness is object of obsession users and it would block it out if the chase went on too long.
But neither killer gains anything from BOP activating. The hidden red stain is pointless when you can simply moonwalk. And the undetectable buff doesn't offer anything to either of those killers. Especially Freddy. The benefit of countering OoO is not worth chasing someone for 15 seconds without breaking a pallet or using his power.
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@Auron471 said:
wait... doesnt getting a hit on a survivor remove bloodlust?
Yes. But you still have undetectable during the hit. So your terror radius counts as zero.
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@DaKnight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1478525#Comment_1478525
???
In a perfect world you mark someone and stab them within like 2-3 seconds, before you are even revealed. Both perks are useless in that case since your TR would still count as 0.
What if you expose them, are revealed, and have the opportunity to get a down before the BOP proc? IF would be far superior in that case. You will get revealed, down the marked survivor. Anyone inside your TR screams and anyone outside it is revealed by the camera.
I don't think anyone competent is going to be surprised if their teammate gets slugged 15-20m away and then you start chasing them right after.
Did you miss this part of the post?
"But after years of super intense study I have finally found a build that makes it useful!
SOMEWHAT.
ON A SINGLE KILLER.
USING A SPECIFIC ADD-ON.
Which is arguably not even very good..."
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@DaKnight said:
Why not run infectious fright instead? Then if you get revealed, anyone inside the TR would scream, anyone outside would get revealed.
Although Infectious functions similarly, it is worse than this combo in 2 ways.
- Its range is limited to your terror radius. Whereas BOP + OSC shows survivors all across the map.
- It lets survivors know you have it when they scream. The combo above lets you sneak up on them without them knowing.
Unless they're running spinechill.
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@Dpooly said:
It can be good for mind gaming corners at LT walls and jungle gyms, plus the bp bonus is always nice although deviousness is fairly easy to max out
It could be useful for mindgaming... If it wasn't already possible to simply moonwalk to hide the red stain.
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This seems like a post that could use your input.
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@Zaitsev said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/175089/what-is-your-opinion-on-indoor-maps
Midwich is garbage. Lerys is garbage for almost everyone. Hawkins is garbage. The Game is pretty good actually.
Real talk. Yamoaka maps are the worst.
I largely agree with this statement.
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@Zaitsev said:
Wow. An actual use for the camera other than janky synergy with Furtive Chase.
Amazing I know.
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I haven't been on the forums for very long compared to most of the people here. But I can agree that engagement is very low unless you make a post complaining about how the killer/survivor balance is terrible.
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@DWolfAlpha said:
Even in the face of certain doom, you still fight back.
When you are on the hook, and you attempt to escape, you spray your blood around you. If the killer is within 10/13/15 meters of you and in your line of sight, you stun the killer for 1/1.5/2 seconds and cause their vision to be obscured for 2/3 /4 seconds.
"Yeah, ya like that? Well- *Cough* *Cough* Have some more!"
Having a stun perk related to being hooked is a bad idea. A hooked survivor is supposed to be immobile and helpless.
Also, having their blood spray out 15 meters is ludicrous. It would be like the old bug where Huntress got blood on her screen when she hit a survivor with a hatchet, even if it was miles away.
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Of course. 3 survivors are easy to deal with than 4 after all.
It's just a shame is asymmetrical so the best strategy for one side will often infuriate the other.
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They should prevent survivors from switching characters and loadouts once in a lobby. It wouldn't solve the problem of survivors knowing what killer they'll be going up against before the game starts. But it stops them from fully capitalizing on it.
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"Rest in piece you alcohol consuming, treadmill running, gravity defying, barbaric psychopath. You will always be an important part of dbd history."
F
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@Boss said:
I don't know if they would still say this in the present, but one argument they gave was to not bombard newer players with tons of information.
Which i do find funny actually, when looking at Perks like Adrenaline.
https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Adrenaline
You are fuelled by unexpected energy when on the verge of escape.
Instantly heal one Health State and sprint at 150 % of your normal running speed for 5 seconds when the Exit Gates are powered.
Adrenaline is on hold if you are disabled when it triggers and will activate upon being freed.
Adrenaline will wake you up if you are asleep when it triggers.
Adrenaline ignores Exhaustion.
Causes the Exhausted Status Effect for 60/50/40 seconds.
Look at all that!
I've also noticed that as a trend in new killer powers.
Take Trappers, It's literally just a few sentences.
Then look at how long Pyramid Head's is.
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@Warcrafter4 said:
Its mainly to give a placebo effect for weaker addons seeming stronger then they actually are and vice versa for the strong addons(Seem weaker then they actually are).
A good example of the former is legion's cold dirt which despite saying it considerably reduces his FF's self stun it only gives you .6 seconds less stun which is less then 25%.
An egregious example of the ladder Demo's rat tail which gives a "slight" portal opening speed DOUBLES THE SPEED WHICH PORTALS ARE CREATED!
I remember a similar situation with Pig's Combat Straps. Before a patch that buffed them, they doubled her crouching speed. But according to their description they only "Slightly increases crouching speed".
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@MeatBycicle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1462560#Comment_1462560
You have multiple lives.
That seems about right.
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@MeatBycicle said:
Dead Hard, Unbreakable, Decisive Strike, Borrowed Time
What's the gimmick exactly?
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@ClickyClicky said:
Nemesis, Rancor, and then either Enduring, PWYF, or Remember Me
The survivors get a false sense of confidence after gen rushing you, but you can normally kill 2 of them endgame depending on the speed of the killers mori animation
That kind of build works very well with Pig. Not only does she have her traps, she has the fastest mori animation in the game.
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@ Antares2332 said:
I like the add-on LoPro Chains, something like this would be excellent.
My thoughts exactly! Although to be fair most ideas would be better than what we have now.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1462023#Comment_1462023
Fact claims and opinion claims shouldn't be evaluated the same, and it's rare for someone, especially in an official announcement, to outright lie. Mislead? Maybe. Be wrong? Sometimes, not with something like this, but sometimes. But lie? Almost never.
A claim like "40% of Survivors die" can be taken at face value. This claim about predicting match outcomes is inline with a claim like this.
The kinds of claims you should be taking with salt are interpretations OF data. Such as "Therefor the hatch is OP" or "billy thus needs a nerf" or whtaever. Not the data being interpreted.
But we know absolutely nothing about how they tested this system. Only that it's apparently "very accurate".
The balancing team has proven many times over that what they consider to be fun and balanced is very far removed from reality. So hearing that they've now designed a new match making system, I'm inherently skeptical.
We'll just have to see over time.
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@PigMainClaudette said:
I have no clue what exploit you're talking about but there are several things that will give away a killer's identity within the first 20 seconds of a match anyway.
If it is the loading screen one, it's always been the first match against them for me.
It's an exploit in the lobby. Before this patch, there was an easy way survivors could see what killer they were facing before the match started. And certain programs that could even tell them what perks and add-ons the killer was running.
But apparently this exploit is not yet fixed.
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It it means finally adding a different game mode after 4 whole years, then I'm all for it.
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@SpaceCoconut said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1461837#Comment_1461837
Here's the problem with his argument.
Humans have a way of doing the impossible.
Flight was impossible. The Lightbulb was impossible. The television was impossible.
If calculating all of the things and probabilities in a match is impossible, then the coder doesn't have to worry about all of the variables. Only the most important ones.
Another telling point is that the announcement mentioned that the algorithm predicted the outcomes accurately. If this is the case, then they have indeed achieved the impossible.
We'll see how it all plays out by the end of the year.
Considering this is also the same team that said they were, "Fine with how Billy was performing", I'd take any claim they make with a dozen bags of salt.
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@ProfoundEnding said:
They say they do it so the game doesn't get banned in other countries.
Which countries? And why are they OK with the maiming and torturing involved with hooking a survivor but will draw the line at anything more than a drop of blood?
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@ClickyClicky said:
What they did with his add ons is probably the best way for them to go in the future - by that I mean add ons that dont affect the charge time or cooldown.
Everyone complains killers powers are weak without add ons. But when you have add ons that affect the charging, cooldown or effectiveness of a power you need to make them weak at base. If they ditched these kinds of add ons and made more creative add ons, then killers powers could be stronger at base.
I agree with this on a conceptual level. But the add-ons that Bill has now are neither creative nor useful.
They're either left-overs from his add-on selection or just plain garbage. Mother's Helpers is a prime example of how bad they are.