Reinami
Reinami
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- Reinami
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@doobiedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3841799#Comment_3841799
If you think loops need to be nerfed more than they already have been when survivor is already at the weakest spot its ever been in the history of the game then nothing else you say can be taken seriously.
Never watched a comp game have you?
Keep in mind when i say these things i say them from the PoV of the OTHER 30 killers that aren't the top ones. You'll never see a trapper win a comp match, or a legion for example.
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842363#Comment_3842363
Idk what to believe honestly, people gaslight me all the time with that logic to explain why Huntress has such low kill rates. Even though she has lots kill rates at general AND high MMR which disproves that. But Nurse has high kill rates at high MMR so I chalked it up to newbs.
She doesn't have high kill rates at high MMR though. Back when they were providing the data split between "top mmr" and "all matches" she still was often in the lowest kill rate killer.
Here is the last time i found them showing "all mmr" vs "high mmr"
She's at the average mark. 1% above the desired "60% kill rate" Which for balance purposes is solidly slightly above what they want, putting her in the "fine" category.
Unless you mean to think that we only look at top 1%, or maybe top .1%. But again, if we do that, you need to explain why we shouldn't balance for those level of players, and why survivors don't need massive nerfs.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842366#Comment_3842366
Actually Mario Kart matches people based on racing points and has done so since… MKWii? Unsure, but at least since the Wii up to present. But you do get matched with others based on what is essentially a MMR that goes up when you place well and down when you place poorly.
I've found that the best way to enjoy DBD as a "party game" while messing around is in a custom match, the queue times and tunneling/camping have turned most of my friends away from playing this game. That said, going back to grade-based matchmaking wouldn't change much imo. Because of how large the MMR gap is tonight, I've been getting leaderboard killer mains (same 8000 hour huntress twice, 7000 hour deathslinger streamer, both on LBs) but also teammates that cannot hold chase and don't know where gens are. Grade based matchmaking felt about the same to me, except that because of the larger pool of players, most of my matches had "eh" killers and "eh" teammates.
That would be more akin to DBDs old matchmaking system that was about grades though, which is more about playtime than actual skill based MMR.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842366#Comment_3842366
To be fair, DBD was released without MMR and when the system was first introduced most people hated it.
This was not something people wanted or asked for.
But it is here anyway. And the consequences of those decisions has born fruit.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842323#Comment_3842323
The answer to "should you balance around high level or the average" depends entirely on the target audience. Games like LOL, DOTA, Street Fighter, Tekken, etc, are designed for competitive players and balance around the high level because those are they players they advertise to and built their game around. However, DBD is not really built to be a competitive game, and the developers no longer seek to appeal to competitive players. The fact that DBD has dropped official tournaments and releases new perks and characters every few months is proof enough of this, as is the ever growing list of never fixed spectator bugs. Their business and design models are aimed at casual players who come for the cool licenses and scary skins and maps. This is also why they hide MMR and have no real plans to change how loose its matchmaking is. Because the game's target audience is casual players, it should be balanced around the averages, which is how BHVR balances.
Nurse escapes a huge gutting for two primary reasons:
1 - Learning muscle memory for blinks is too hard for the average gamer, so low level nurses underperform significantly, thus skewing her stats.
2 - The developers have no idea how to resolve issues with the nurse at higher levels without fundamentally reworking her ability to travel through walls.
As another 4000+ hour player who mains blight, I can consistently win with sweaty builds and tunneling if I really want to, but I don't think the game should be designed around me. I can respect your opinion if you disagree, but this is why I think the game should be balanced around average players, because it is the playerbase that BHVR designs their game, updates, and advertising around.
If MMR didn't exist, i might consider agreeing with you. But DBD is not really good as a party game either, have you tried playing it with a large group of friends who are just messing around? The novelty wears off pretty quick. If you want a horror party game, games like TCM, F13, Deceit and hell, even identity V are much better at that then DBD is. The reason that DBD actually stands out is because of the massive licenses, and because it is so distinct from them in that it is NOT "just a party game" and the game itself has MASSIVE potential as a competitive esport if it was properly balanced.
Party games don't have MMR. Mario kart is not matching people based on their MMR, nor is Mario Party.
And if the "But its a party game" argument were true. Then why do they keep nerfing things like blight hug tech. Are people using hug tech in a "party game" setting? No, that is something that only the highest level blights who have probably mastered the killer playing hundreds of games were actually using. But they still nerfed it. Survivors who have a "party mindset" weren't going against those blights, because they weren't high enough MMR to do it.
This is just one example, but i don't buy the "its a party game" argument when time and time again the devs have shown that that is not the case.
And on top of that, DBD is an extremely EXTREMELY complicated game, in terms of mechanics. The pitch can be explained in about 30 seconds, but the game has so much to learn that it literally does take thousands of hours to learn it all. Party games don't have that kind of depth.
But if you think it should be balanced around "Average players" then hold true to those convictions, nurse by definition must then be buffed. Because she is by far the worst killer in the game, when looking at the "average player"
Based on that logic we need to be nerfing the "really strong" killers like:
- Lich
- Freddy
- Pig
- Plague
- Dredge
- Sadako
And start buffing the "really weak" killers like:
- Nurse
- Huntress
- Hillbilly
- Artist
- Spirit
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3842326#Comment_3842326
As weird as this sounds I would put mediocre above average. If you put 50 hours into Nurse you are going to be pretty solid but not great but since it’s Nurse it doesn’t matter and you will clap survivors anyways.
Nurse general MMR rate is so low because of the people who play her 5-10 times and get wiped out and then never touch her again. And the Hugh MMR data she had showed she was at the top 8 with a 62% kill rate.
But she is CONSISTENTLY the lowest kill rate killer in the game. You can't say that is people who play her 5-10 times and then never play her again. That would mean that this game has a constant influx of new players all the time, which i doubt is true.
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@JiWONG said:
It's a rubbish perk, it has a 60 second cooldown, it only works at locker range and it also goes on cooldown even if it doesn't detect a previous survi uw before you massacred it it only needed a bigger cooldown not that you'll rework it if you plan to leave it as This at least reduces the cooldown by half or makes it work for a short time instead of based on the distance of the locker
The big secret was that the old version was fine and not really that good of a perk to begin with because there were much better tracking perks like nowhere to hide in the game.
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
Definitely needs more nerfs honestly. She’s gotten many perks nerfed and has no doubt prevented countless perks from ever making it past the concept phase. On top of keeping a lot of mediocre perks awful because if they were stronger they would be insane on her.
Even a mediocre Nurse player can 4k almost every game and A nurse with 50 hours would easily outperform any other killer in the game with 100 hours. I genuinely don’t think I have ever lost a single time as Nurse except for 2 matches where I wasn’t used to indoor map blinking.
I doubt she will ever be nerfed much more because she is basically the reason why Devs can say that this game isn’t pay to win.
The data disagrees with you on a "mediocre nurse" because a "mediocre nurse" by definition would be an "average" nurse, and the data shows her having significantly lower win rates than most killers when looking at that. Even when they release "high mmr" data, she's usually in the middle at most.
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@Dadeordye said:
Hey yal!😁
Would like to discuss this: why years pass and almost every killer receive nerfs and Nurse is basically untouched in all DbD history? We have such nice perks for killers that could be balanced with all of them except Nurse. If she uses these perk they becomes broken, so for the sake of balance they are not good as they could be.
I'm sure this subject was already debated once, but I would like to participate this time.😊There was literally a thread about this yesterday, so i'll just copy/paste what i said in there.
Every time this thread comes up, i ask a simple question. Should the game be balanced around top tier players, or average level players?
In my opinion, multiplayer games should always be balanced around what the highest level players are capable of doing, while still making sure the game is fun for the average skill players. This is where you rework things that are bad in competitive play, but are complete "noob stompers" such as when LoL did that to champions like Xin Xhao, at one point, who was stomping pub games, but pretty bad in tournament play. Or the reverse, where something is really good in competitive play, but super hard to play so in low skill games it has a horrible win rate. That way the game is inherently balanced, and it gives players something to strive for that is valuable.
For some reason, the DBD community seems to think that you should balance this game around average skilled players. I disagree with that, but thus, i give you the stats.
The last official stats released:
They put nurse at a 55% kill rate at 3rd from the bottom. Keep in mind that the stats are slightly deflated for doctor due to the "afk doctor" epidemic that was going on in some regions, and hillbilly changes had just barely gone live, and didn't include the removal of the overheat yet. Additionally, nearly every single time they release data, the nurse is the bottom of the list in terms of kill rate, usually far below the desired "60% kill rate" mark and making her by far the "worst killer in the game"
Even looking at the unofficial stats on nightlight, shows her having a 57% kill rate, not too far off that 55% kill rate the official stats put her at and killers like:
- lich
- pinhead
- sadako
- blight
- twins
- hag
- plague
- pig (yes pig)
- wraith
- freddy (yes freddy)
- leatherface
- oni
- chucky
- nemesis
- doctor
- dracula
- billy
- wesker
- dredge (yes dredge)
All have a higher kill rate than her. In fact, the unofficial stats put her only slight above the average 56.83% kill rate of all killers.
So i ask you again. Should games be balanced around what the most skilled players in the game are capable of? Or should they be balanced around the average player? When you look at the most skilled players in the world, generally you'll see that, assuming no outside rules like perk restrictions, or scoring systems, or any other things that the "comp scene" tries to put in place to balance the game, pretty much the only viable killers at that level, are nurse, spirit, and maybe blight (although i'm not as sure since the removal of hug tech).
So, if we were to balance around the highest skilled players in the game, then survivors likely need massive massive nerfs, or almost every killer needs massive massive buffs in order to compete. Then, if that is the case, THEN nurse can be nerfed.
But if the philosophy is that we balance the game around the "Average" players"? Well, then based on that, looking at official stats from BHVR, shows that nurse is in dire need of BUFFS to bring her more in line with the super strong killers like… freddy…. and pig….
And the unofficial stats show her as the shining beacon of design and balance for what this game should be balanced around, a perfectly "average" killer.
Keep in mind i say these things as a player who:
- Has 4k hours
- Is a nurse main
- Literally cannot remember the last time i lost a game as nurse (i do draw on rare occasion)
- Thinks nurse should be nerfed
- Thinks that survivors as a whole need to have their "power" toned down significantly, mostly in terms of nerfing loops and not increasing gen times
- If anything i think gens should be shorter
So one last time, i ask you, should this game be balanced around high skill players, or average skill players?
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@frozzenk said:
Why is every killer subject to balance changes, nerfs, buffs, etc. and then they allow Nurse to live completely outside of this reality? It's like she is in her own game or something, separate from everyone else.
She is absolutely ridiculously overpowered, there is NOTHING you can do to counter her, and nobody seems to care. Nobody asks for nerfs. The devs don't bother. It's like a criminal who everyone knows is robbing people but the police turn a blind eye.
WHY?!
Everytime this thread comes up, i ask a simple question. Should the game be balanced around top tier players, or average level players?
In my opinion, multiplayer games should always be balanced around what the highest level players are capable of doing, while still making sure the game is fun for the average skill players. This is where you rework things that are bad in competitive play, but are complete "noob stompers" such as when LoL did that to champions like Xin Xhao, at one point, who was stomping pub games, but pretty bad in tournament play. Or the reverse, where something is really good in competitive play, but super hard to play so in low skill games it has a horrible win rate. That way the game is inherently balanced, and it gives players something to strive for that is valuable.
For some reason, the DBD community seems to think that you should balance this game around average skilled players. I disagree with that, but thus, i give you the stats.
The last official stats released:
Since we’ve started regularly sharing stats last year, we’ve received various requests for different kinds of data you would like to see. On top of the usual statistics we share, we’ve selected a few of the most requested topics to share with you today. Before we dive in, we would like to remind everyone that while data…They put nurse at a 55% kill rate at 3rd from the bottom. Keep in mind that the stats are slightly deflated for doctor due to the "afk doctor" epidemic that was going on in some regions, and hillbilly changes had just barely gone live, and didn't include the removal of the overheat yet. Additionally, nearly every single time they release data, the nurse is the bottom of the list in terms of kill rate, usually far below the desired "60% kill rate" mark and making her by far the "worst killer in the game"
Even looking at the unofficial stats on nightlight, shows her having a 57% kill rate, not too far off that 55% kill rate the official stats put her at and killers like:
- lich
- pinhead
- sadako
- blight
- twins
- hag
- plague
- pig (yes pig)
- wraith
- freddy (yes freddy)
- leatherface
- oni
- chucky
- nemesis
- doctor
- dracula
- billy
- wesker
- dredge (yes dredge)
All have a higher kill rate than her. In fact, the unofficial stats put her only slight above the average 56.83% kill rate of all killers.
So i ask you again. Should games be balanced around what the most skilled players in the game are capable of? Or should they be balanced around the average player? When you look at the most skilled players in the world, generally you'll see that, assuming no outside rules like perk restrictions, or scoring systems, or any other things that the "comp scene" tries to put in place to balance the game, pretty much the only viable killers at that level, are nurse, spirit, and maybe blight (although i'm not sure since the removal of hug tech).
So, if we were to balance around the highest skilled players in the game, the survivors need massive massive nerfs, or almost every killer needs massive massive buffs in order to compete. Then, if that is the case THEN nurse can be nerfed.
But if the philosophy is that we balance the game around the "Average" players"? Well, then based on that, looking at official stats from BHVR, shows that nurse is in dire need of BUFFS to bring her more in line with the super strong killers like… freddy…. and pig….
And the unofficial stats show her as the shining beacon of design and balance for what this game should be balanced around, a perfectly "average" killer.
Keep in mind i say these things as a player who:
- Has 4k hours
- Is a nurse main
- Literally cannot remember the last time i lost a game as nurse (i do draw on rare occasion)
- Thinks nurse should be nerfed
- Thinks that survivors as a whole need to have their "power" toned down significantly, mostly in terms of nerfing loops and not increasing gen times
- If anything i think gens should be shorter
So one last time, i ask you, should this game be balanced around high skill players, or average skill players?
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@versacefeng said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3839318#Comment_3839318
Survivor and killer are completely different roles. Two killers teaming together in 2v8 isn’t the same as 4 survivors on comms.
I see, so we balance around average, solo queue megheads and also top tier high mmr nurse mains with 5k hours. Got it.
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@AquaticCitizen said:
Because of the whole "More Hooks = More Gen Speed", a large majority of the matches I've had so far as survivor involve killers never worrying about hooking and instead leaving survivors on the ground to bleed out.
This is absolutely ridiculous. Please for the love of all things hotfix this specific thing out of the game. It leads to the most boring matches imaginable as survivor.
What a surprise. When you punish hooking, killers don't hook.
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@MaddieMage said:
Guess I’ll always be playing the gen class to try and make gens fly as fast as possible since that’s the best way to counter a one tap killer who has a teammate for extra help. Let’s go for 5 minute matches 😆
@devoutartist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3839285#Comment_3839285
he wasn't weak last time he was actually pretty strong just more team oriented i guest it was too much for ppl to handle the team part of billy ?
Survivor mains want devs to balance around solo queue, and when killers get teammates they want them to balance around the killers being organized and in discord together?
So which is it, do we balance around solo queue average player? Or are we balancing around a well organized team playing with discord?
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3838747#Comment_3838747
Oh, please. This isn't a suggestion for reverting the whole game back to release in the next balance patch.
This is a request for an optional, alternate game mode to experience things they weren't around to experience. It is a perfectly reasonable request.
Though personally I wouldn't go with 2016 DBD, because that means no Freddy. Late 2017 or early 2018 are better, imho.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3838753#Comment_3838753
@GeneralV would also get old Freddy :)
Nothing in DBD would make me happier, my friend.
…Unless we could get original 2017 Freddy before his first nerf. That would be fantastic!
part of me wants 2.4.0 just so people can experience just how bad old Legion was though lolWell friend, you know I loved the Old DBD and really want it back, but I think I draw the line here.
Or maybe not because 2.4.0 still has Old Freddy, but I definitely wouldn't play survivor if there was a chance I would have to face Old Legion. Really don't wanna go through that again.
Right, but my point is, you don't want to play that version. You'll play it for like 3 games and realize just how awful it is, and never touch it again. Just watch a video on old DBD to see how broken so many things were,
- BNPs that just finished the gen immediately
- Moris that didn't need a hook to be used
- Killer shack having 2 windows and 1 door.
- Literal infinite loops everywhere.
- 7 blink nurse.
- the list goes on.
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@HPhoenix said:
I just found out that Overwatch 2 is dropping a Overwatch: Classic game mode.
This is coming from someone whom started playing DbD in summer 2018 that haven't experience the old version of the game. I heard alot of….funny shenaniganry and even saw video on how old DbD used to be like. I figure a classic limited event game mode would be a fine addition to DbD, in my opinion. The mode is for those whom have never experienced DbD 1.0 or for those whom want to re-live it.
Y'all welcome to hand out your opinion but I ask to keep it civil. You're also welcome to tell us some funny/good/bad moments from 2016's DbD release if ya like!
I'm gonna quote someone from blizzard, and this time its actually true.
You think you do, but you don't.
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@Rudjohns said:
I figure I died in 9 out of 10 games. The event was way too killer sided. My mmr as survivor got to a point that my teammates are clearly new judging by the characters and cosmetics they are using, and when I investigate their Steam profile, I see a bunch of people with 30 or 50 hours of game. I even saw someone with 2 hours!
It's also reflecting on the killers. I have 4k hours in the game and I have been playing since 2021. I feel dirty when I notice the killer is really struggling to catch me, most of the time the mindgames don't work among other things. However my teammates are either not lasting in chase or they are doing dumb decisions that ends the entire match for everybody.
Because all of this, I keep dying as well, so my MMR is not going up.
Can't remember the last time I saw Pain Resonance in my games (including the Halloween event)
I keep getting killers with prestige 0, using yellow and green universal perks such as Unrelenting, Monstrous Shrine and Whispers
When I loop the killer for almost the entire match I feel so bad I decide to just give a kill to them. Hopefully just me dying still don't mess with my MMR (pretty sure BHVR said not long time ago that if 1 survivors dies it doesn't count as a "lost game" regarding mmr)
But I digress, just getting off my chest…
I got some news for you though,
MMR was used for matchmaking purposes for events, but they don't modify your MMR.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836634#Comment_3836634
cool, nerf slugging
Then at that point what is left? Killers probably find the next thing you hate, or they just give up if it doesn't exist. They need to stop punishing people for doing the "bad thing" and start rewarding killers for doing the "good thing" while making the "bad thing" not possible from a gameplay perspective. But instead they just keep "nerfing" the "bad thing" which doesn't actually make the bad thing go away.
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@Autharia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836669#Comment_3836669
If you are getting Shift+W for 60 seconds it's a skill issue. The last chase stats also say that as there average of 60 seconds of chase across the whole match for all matches. but lets think more of numbers and time. the most killer without getting any BL stacks is 4.6m in chase so starting at max range of chase of 18m it takes 30s roughly (With BL it stacking its 25s.) to get that hit with out lunge, on that hit survivors are 6.6 speed for 1.8s gaining 11.88m in turn is another 19s roughly (With BL is 17s). So in the perfect run time for a Shift+W survivor (at max distances) the chase lasts for 49s (42s with BL procs). Most chases start much closer to 5-10m range from killer taking off a lot of time. And the most a Shift+W will do is predrop a pallet and with maps now 90% of them are skip able unsafe ones that slow them more then the killer. This is also for a M1 killer any M2 killer will me much faster on the down.
I'm not saying getting "shift+w" for 60 seconds is a skill issue, its literally the math around it. I'm saying that, mathematically, if the survivor shift+w to a corner of the map, a chase should last a minimum of 60 seconds (which includes the time it takes to pick them up, walk to a hook, and hook them). A chase, at MINIMUM, should last around 40 seconds from start to finish, and if you are going down in less than 40 seconds, you are looping WORSE than if you just held shift+w and ran to a corner of the map. This obviously is not factoring in a killer like nurse, but i personally do not include nurse in any kind of discussion around DBD because nurse does not play dead by daylight, she plays "The nurse game"
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836656#Comment_3836656
If those perks would have been nerfed that hard to play something different, why is everyone running the same perks? Oh wait, cause theyre still the worst meta ever.
Because they must. Did you miss the part where i said after a survivor has been downed it still takes almost 20 seconds to hook them? If the survivor does nothing but run in a straight line from start of chase to end of chase and shift +w to the furthest corner of the map, do you know how much time is spent? You probably don't, but i'll tell you, it about 60 seconds. That isn't factoring in pallets, looping, windows, anything. A God pallet, AKA Shack, a pallet that MUST be broken, results in extending a chase by about 20 seconds.
This means, that in the first chase, all the survivor has to do is shift + w to killer shack, predrop the pallet, and shift+w to the furthest corner possible, and the survivors will finish 3 gens.
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836634#Comment_3836634
"Constantly nerf" … you didnt read much patchnots lately, did you?
You mean the ones where they nerfed:
- Call of Brine
- Corrupt Intervention
- Dead Man's Switch (arguably a side-grade)
- Deadlock
- Eruption
- Grim Embrace
- Hex: Ruin
- Overcharge
- Pop Goes the Weasel
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance
- Thanatophobia
- Tinkerer
While leaving us with amazing perks like…. merciless storm.
Again, what patch notes?
But yes also please ignore the entire point of my post to attack a single sentence i made at the end.
EDIT: Not even a single sentence, you took out a single phrase in a single sentence and ignored everything else.
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/432056/if-slugging-is-bad
Enlight us of those many mechanics and perks!
Hooking a survivor can be countered by these things:
- Pallet Saves
- Flashlights
- Sparklers/Flashbang items
- Sabotaging hooks
And the following perks:
- Boil Over
- Breakout
- Decisive Strike
- Flashbang
- Flip-Flop
- Power Struggle
- Saboteur
Survivors gain benefits directly related to being hooked, or unhooking others with these perks:
- Aftercare
- Babysitter
- Background Player
- Blood Rush
- Borrowed Time
- Breakdown
- Camaraderie
- Dead Hard
- Deliverance
- Kindred
- Off the Record
- Reassurance
- Resurgence
- Second Wind
- Should the Burden (coming soon)
- Slippery Meat
- We'll Make it
On top of that, survivors have things like:
- Basekit BT
- Anti-Face Camp Mechanic
- 70 second hook stages
Lastly, the time it takes to hook a survivor, that is HOOK a survivor, not chase them, not find them, not down them. I'm saying, you have hit the survivor, and they are now on the ground, it takes:
2.7 second wipe animation + 3 second pickup animation + ~10 seconds to find a nearby hook (based on average hook distances) + 1.5 second hooking animation = 17.2 seconds (during which 3 other survivors are getting 51.6 seconds of gen progress on a required 450 seconds of progress (I.E. 11.4% of their objective done again NOT factoring in chase time, finding the survivor, breaking pallets, etc. That is just literally picking up the downed survivor and hooking them which is 8% of the killer's objective, the survivors are able to complete 11.4% of theirs)
Now, how many things counter slugging?
Well there is nothing basekit that does. What about perks?
- Adrenaline (arguable, but i'll include it)
- Boon: Exponential
- No mither (arguable again, but i'll include it)
- Tenacity
- Unbreakable
- We're Gonna Live Forever
Now lets look at perk usages from nightlight:
Hook perks:
- Boil Over - 3.04%
- Breakout - 1.82%
- Decisive Strike - 9.43%
- Flashbang - 3.38%
- Flip-Flop - 1.70%
- Power Struggle - 1.07%
- Saboteur - 2.16%
- Aftercare - 0.54%
- Babysitter - 1.11%
- Background Player - 4.10%
- Blood Rush - 0.48%
- Borrowed Time - 1.61%
- Breakdown - 0.53%
- Camaraderie - 0.14%
- Dead Hard - 10.80%
- Deliverance - 2.86%
- Kindred - 7.99%
- Off the Record - 7.09%
- Reassurance - 1.54%
- Resurgence - 5.43%
- Second Wind - 0.74%
- Should the Burden (coming soon) - 0% (not out yet)
- Slippery Meat - 0.86%
- We'll Make it - 8.20%
Slug Perks:
- Adrenaline - 13.94%
- Boon: Exponential - 1.59%
- No mither - 0.51%
- Tenacity - 1.54%
- Unbreakable - 9.96%
- We're Gonna Live Forever - 3.13%
Totaling all that up, in a given game with 4 survivors, you will see on average, out of 16 possible perks:
- 3 perks related to hooking
- 1 perk related to slugging
That again, doesn't factor in things like items, flashlights, toolboxes, or the basekit bt, or AFC mechanic or any other things.
On top of that, looking at the strength of the perks. If you hook survivors you might have to deal with perks like:
- Decisive Strike
- Dead Hard
- We'll Make It
- Deliverance
- Off the Record
For context, these perks are used in basically every single comp game ever for a reason.
Whereas on the slugging side, perks like:
- Adrenaline are a one time use and only really come in play under specific circumstances
- Boon Exponential is super easy to counter, because you probably can hear the totem if you down a survivor and they are in the range of it
- No mither is a joke of a perk
- Tenacity isn't really a hard counter and often just gets paired with unbreakable really
- Unbreakable is annoying but they can only use it once in a match, so once it is gone, it is gone and you don't have to worry about it anymore. On top of that, at the very least you STILL forced them to spend time recovering and waste time, whereas something like DS actually costs you more time than it costs the survivor
- The only true constant "Counter" is WGLF which has already been nerfed a bit, and is pretty manageable when you stack slugging perks to deal with it. On top of that, its only seen 3.13% of the time, so you are gonna see it maybe once every, what, 10 games?
And you wonder why killers are just slugging now? Why on earth is that surprising to you? They constantly nerf every single thing about killers, and all the hooking based gen defense perks, and it takes you 20 seconds to hook a survivor you just downed, meanwhile all the gens are getting slammed, and you wonder why killers just don't bother with the hook anymore?
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830240#Comment_3830240
Doubt it. The devs said that when first hook deaths were removed from Skull Merchants killrates it only went from 71% to like 68%. If Skull Merchant only had 3% first hook deaths then i doubt other killers are worse off. 1/3 deaths definitely aren't from people letting go, especially against low tier killers.
I mean, that is easily accounted for with multiple factors, teammates unhooking them out of spite for raging, and the 4% mechanic.
Think of it this way. Lets say hypothetically 25% of skull merchant's kills are based on people rage quitting (We don't know if that is the case, but it doesn't really matter too much as we are dealing with percentages here.)
Lets imagine a scenario where we are looking at 100,000 kills.
- 25,000 of them are people doing a hook suicide.
- 75,000 of them are "legitimate".
Now, of those 25,000, how many of them do a "4%"? Well, its a 12% chance to do a "4%" based on 3 tries. So of those 25,000 kills, you'd see 3000 4%s. So now the stats are
- 22,000 hook suicide
- 78,000 regular kills
So if her kill rate was 71% before on 100,000 before which would be 129,000 survivors seen, and then they took out the hook suicides, which was 22,000, her kill rate would actually go up to 72%.
So even ignoring the "spite unhooks" it is easy to see how removing "1st hook deaths" doesn't show the whole scope of the problem.
There is also more to "Giving up" then just killing yourself on the hook, there is the, running to the killer, teammates unhooking you, running into the killer again, griefing teammates, etc.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830078#Comment_3830078
If you harshly punish AFK, they will run into the killer. And then you have to prove that running into the killer is intentionally sabotaging the game, and not just trying to use OTR/DS or be a distraction, or just a bad play. If they make running in front of the killer punishable then they will just sit on a gen and not react as the killer approaches, how can you prove they weren't distracted, or in chase they will just go down quickly by greeding everything or running to a deadzone.
Basically, no matter how hard you try, you would end up needing to have some sort of manual review process for what is essentially inting in league. And given DBD's track record of requiring an ingame report and a recording, you would need both of those, and on top of that be able to prove that their play was throwing. I have no faith in BHVR to implement and maintain any sort of punishment system like this. They could throw together an anti-AFK system like they do for killers but once survivors learn about it they will do the method I described. In a different type of game it could probably work better but I just don't see it working here.
These games do that though. Punishing AFK is easy, they literally already have AFK detection in the game in terms of crows, punishing griefing is also easy.
Its pretty easy to see if someone has 3 chases in a game that each last 3 seconds. Or if both of their hits happen in the exact same spot. And yes, someone can be bad at the game and this could also happen sure. This is why you don't punish people for a single game, you do it based on a repeated pattern of behavior.
Even the worst of the worst survivors are still going to get some progress done on a generator, and are still going to have a chase that at least lasts some number of seconds once in a while. But if you see someone for 5 or 10 games in a row, get 1k bloodpoints, with 0 progress on generators, where all of their chases last 3 seconds, and they get hit while standing in the exact same spot for 3 chases. There is obviously something going on there.
Such detection could even take into account MMR averages. For example, if you are at 500 MMR (some extremely low number) they can know that the average chase at that MMR lasts X number of seconds, and survivors tend to get X average bloodpoints and X average gen progression and so on. Then just base their detection on that, so that "bad players" aren't judged the same as top mmr for example.
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@Autharia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830078#Comment_3830078
Those other games also punish toxic behavior that that's along the line of tunneling/slugging/camping along with afking
Camping is not punished in CoD or any other games with strategies that may be considered "toxic" what are you talking about? What these games punish is griefing, like intentionally feeding, assisting the enemy team, going afk, etc.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
My opinion is it should stay. Simply put, you cannot force someone who does not want to play, to play, they will simply AFK, or play poorly, and you cannot snuff out all of these methods. If you try to make such an action reportable, they will simply play really poorly and it will be impossible to prove, and clog the report system. When it is justifiable to do so is more controversial, but I think everyone agrees that if someone else on your team has already quit or it's a 2v1 and you want to give your teammate to hatch then it is fine to "go next".
Other games do it just fine and harshly punish people who afk or throw games. What makes DBD so special that it wouldn't work here?
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@AssortedSorting said:
Myself personally, a Mori that can be acquired that isn’t just on the last survivor, perhaps sooner.
What would you want to see?
(Ignore the autocorrect in the title)
I think fundamentally the entire game needs to be rehauled from an objective point of view.
Basically i would massively nerf, or completely rework every single gen defense perk, and then buff killers basekit gen defense and then make tunneling and camping impossible while punishing survivors for getting hooked (beyond just being eliminated from the game).
So imagine a world where there are no gen defense perks effectively, and instead:
- Basekit regression is 200%
- Basekit gen kick is 10%
- Add a basekit corrupt that lasts 30 seconds
- Add a basekit corrupt on totems that lasts 30 seconds
- There is now a "hook bar" and you must get 8 hooks in order to start killing survivors. Survivors now effectively share the first 2 hook states.
- Remove the anti-face camp mechanic, and rework it so if you hang around the area for more than lets say, 15 seconds, with a 10 second grace period (even if other survivors are nearby) The survivor is automatically teleported to the hook that is closest to the survivor that is furthest from the killer
- This basically means that camping is removed entirely, and the survivor can quickly get unhooked
- Survivors get basekit kindred
- A survivor who is unhooked goes on a 30 second "timeout" where they
- Have no collision
- Make no noise
- Are invisible
- Make no scratch marks
- See the aura of their teammates
- Move at 200% movement speed
- Cannot do any conspicuous actions
- After the timeout is over, they are automatically healed to the healthy state
- This means survivors now just automatically get healed, they literally CANNOT as in, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to be tunneled. Even if they were tunneled, you can't remove anyone from the game until you hook 8 survivors
- Hooking a survivor makes a noise notification at the location of the survivor that is furthest from the hook, showing the killer where they might want to go next.
- Increase the penalty when working on generators together even further to 20-25% slower for each survivor.
- Generator times probably can get reduced potentially even to like 60-70 seconds at this point, but by how much remains to be seen and this would all have to be tested first.
- Probably also need to add some kind of basekit unbreakable mechanic to prevent full slugging 4 people, perhaps it kicks in if you have 2 survivors on the ground, then they are able to automatically pick themselves up, but if 1 survivor is on the ground and someone comes for say, a flashlight save, you are able to slug them and chase the other person still and force them to find someone to heal them.
- Rework pallets and loops so every single loop and pallet can be mindgameable.
- increase the number of pallets in the map, or make pallets respawn after some amount of time, or survivors can spend time "rebuilding" a pallet or some other mechanic.
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@Doxie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830063#Comment_3830063
Then you'd have zero survivors…good luck with that
People would stop doing it pretty quick after their first like 12 hour ban.
But i would still be curious, why would you defend people actively griefing the game? Why can't we punish people for doing it? It doesn't affect player counts in say DotA, and in DotA games can last well over an hour. So if someone is in a match they "don't want to be in" they could potentially have to stick it out for an hour or more. Why can't a DBD player stick around in a match they don't like for like 8 minutes?
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@Wraff said:
What's your opinion on a Survivor killing themselves on hook? Do you understand it when a group runs into a sweaty Huntress who slugs everyone or a Knight who three gens from the start? Or do you think people should tough it out no matter what?
It should be bannable, up to permanent if it is done often enough. This level of griefing is severely punished in every other multiplayer game, and i don't see why they can't ban for it. If anything, i'd like to see it impossible to die on hook on purpose, and then ban people for throwing matches as that would be a bit easier. And people would be less likely to throw a match if they already have to stick it out for 3 hooks.
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@Rawrbot5k said:
Is patrolling gens that hard? With hook camping/tunneling being at a game breaking high do they really need more aura reading? Get hooked, aura read, get unhooked, aura read, break a gen, aura read, pallet drop, aura read, lose chase, aura read, gens finishes, aura read. Why do killers need so many different perks that do the same thing? Get some damn variety. Anyone remember when killers actually had to do work to find survivors? Like you know "hunt" them as huntress? Like holy hell, survivors had ONE aura hiding perk. Then because tunneling was an issue they gave off the record until you perform a "suspicious action". Like why do survivors hide? Because that's all we can do anymore and yall made it that way.
Can someone tell me why survivors need 20 second chance perks?
Is looping the killer really that hard? With gen rushing being at a game breaking high do they really need more second chances? Sprint burst, finish gen, OTR, finish gen, Dead hard, Finish gen, predrop a god pallet, finish gen, lose the killer, unbreakable, finish gen, endgame with hope. Why do survivors need so many different perks that do the same thing? Get some damn variety. Anyone remember when survivors actually had to do work to loop killers? Like you know "survive" against them as survivors? Like holy hell, killers had one second chance perk. Then because gen rushing was an issue they gave tons of gen defense perks. Like why do killers camp/tunnel? Because that's all we can do anymore and yall made it that way.
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@KA149108 said:
I don't think killers should see items or offerings.
While i disagree, i at least understand items. Why hide offerings? 99% of the time offerings are just for Bloodpoints or a map. And the map isn't exactly a secret as soon as someone loads in. The ones that affect gameplay that are meant to be hidden ARE hidden already.
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@buggybug said:
But why should killers see survivors?
4 flashlighs or heck 1= lightborn
4 mix items= franklins
Ttv=dodge
Nice cosmetics = dodge
Same concept right?
Items are significantly less important than a killer's power. Additionally, the game is a 1v4, the 1 SHOULD get advantages over the 4, otherwise the game wouldn't be fair.
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@IronKnight55 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828289#Comment_3828289
It’s probably because maps have become smaller and weaker, and so many anti-loop killers are in the game. No wonder people don’t want to be chased unless they are exceptional at looping.
Because anytime they made a killer have a power that is not anti-loop, survivors also complained. This is why they nerfed and reworked:
- Pinhead box (his current power isn't the best because you have to play him like nurse, and even then you only gain a very very slight amount of distance)
- Sadako
- Pig (although recently she finally got her chase power to be at least slightly better)
- Old Skull Merchant
- Current Knight (Who i suspect they will nerf again because people already complain about his ability to "chase" 2 different survivors)
- Old Singularity (who recently got turned into more anti-loop)
- Twins
- Blight
They tried multiple times throughout time and many nearly in a row to release killers like blight, pinhead, sadako, knight, skull merchant and so on who were not mainly anti-loop killers. Who had to be countered by ways other than vaulting windows and dropping pallets, and what happened? Survivors complained and complained until most of these were either reworked or nerfed because the second you ask survivors to do something other than hold m1 on a gen to counter a killer, all hell breaks loose.
So if they can't make killers about map control because survivors complain about: blight, pinhead, sadako, knight, skull merchant
And they can't make killers about anti-loop because survivors complain about: dracula, lich, chucky, nurse, clown etc.
If they don't give killers anti-loop, they need to give them some way to slow the game down, or speed up the chases. By definition, speeding up chases is basically anti-loop. So you must then slow the game down some other means, but anytime survivors are forced to do that (by being forced to do tapes against sadako, or be ready to go for boxes against pig) they complain
Then exactly what kind of killer is fun at this point? What are the top 3 killers you LIKE going against?
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@JoaoVanBlizzard said:
This perk, since it had the additional buff of 2 extra seconds, was already a very used perk, with the distortion nerf it makes it too strong with other aura reading perks, in my opinion, it should only have a single effect, or it just give extra time to other perks, or it reads the aura at the beginning of the match, a lot of people will come and complain about swf, but the one who is harmed is soloQ, swf even if they remove all the perks they will still be strong, so we must improve the sides that are weaker, like soloQ and some killers, and not make killers like Nurse and Spirit even stronger
Yeah, lets nerf lethal and give killers even more of a reason to stack 4 slowdown perks.
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@buggybug said:
Hope one day it gets the distortion treatment and only have 4 tokens one perk should not be robbing survivors to protect themselves or save a teammate since people claim distortion makes people selfish and should be working as a team, lightborn is taking away that from survivors to play as a team ty god blast mine still has stun at least which flashbang should do as well since that is what it does in re games.
The difference there is that survivors have 16 perks, and killers have 4. If the killer takes 1 perk, it should nullify something that survivors can bring because they have vastly more things they can bring.
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@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827302#Comment_3827302
i was talking about predator.
"Much better to stack aura reading on her instead."
i run two slow downs, no where to hide and lethal on her myself.
Ah, didn't catch that for some reason.
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@solarjin1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826842#Comment_3826842
Another perk claim by the nurse.
How does machine learning help nurse? Undetectable on her is mostly useless because she can already blink on you from nearly outside the terror radius perfect max range is already 32 meters. And a 10% haste on nurse brings her from 3.8 m/s to 4.18, barely faster than survivors. Certainly nothing to write home about given that blink is going to be far stronger than that movement speed.
Much better to stack aura reading on her instead.
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@Seraphor said:
Without them, or at least one of them, the only way to balance 'loops' would be to make them viable only one time around before the killer would be guaranteed a hit, at which point they're no longer 'loops'.
The better thing would be to make every loop/pallet/window mindgameable. That way each one is a proper interaction between killer and survivor where one has to outplay the other.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3825788#Comment_3825788
Something whose logistics is heavily skewed towards communication and co-operative positioning?
Not good for SoloQ.
Maybe Deep Wounds causes Exhaustion?
For Legion: Basic attack Killer, but survivors go back to basics against them too.
Yeah, it sure would be a shame if the team of players were required to "checks notes" play as a team.
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@MaddieMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824780#Comment_3824780
It’s not disingenuous to ask for data from someone making a broad claim about an entire playerbase. If you’re gonna make the claim that the “overwhelming majority” of survivors are behaving a certain way then have proof to back that up. Otherwise re-state the way you say something.
Would have been very easy to say “I don’t know if it’s my MMR or what but in my experience I’m getting a lot of survivors acting this way.” The OP didn’t do that. They literally said “I played one game as killer so now it’s easy to see why survivors have a bad rep because the overwhelming majority act this way.”
So now we can tell what the overwhelming majority do based on one match? Okay. 😆The OP is talking about their personal experiences, it is clear from the post.
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@Gardhome said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WWLIY2Y8PAQP/image.png
I hope its Legion, Ghostface and maybe Hag and Trapper
If i had to guess
We Just had:
- unknown
- SM
- Billy
- Twins
And we are about to have:
- Myers
- Drac
- Demo
- Freddy
Looking at the list of killers, and the fac that Deep wounds is on there, and they stated that cenobite and plague have been pushed back, i suspect the other 4 are going to be:
- Oni
- Probably some kind of addon pass, and a slight buff to making it a little easier to get the power, and then a nerf to make the power a little weaker
- Pyramid Head
- Probably just an addon pass
- Legion
- Probably an addon pass plus some tweaks in mind for the deep wounds update
- Xenomorph
- Probably fixing the bugs with the tail, and reverting the nerf they did to the tail
- If you remember the tail was bugged in PTB to basically give 0 miss cooldown but they double nerfed it by fixing the bug and then also nerfing it, when really they just should have fixed the bug and seen how it went from there.
- Probably fixing the bugs with the tail, and reverting the nerf they did to the tail
With potential for:
- Some buffs for SM because the backlash became too great
- Some nerfs for nurse (but they never actually nerf her)
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3825085#Comment_3825085
Weave really needed to be changed so it is usable by itself not just a combo piece, but ultimately there's little chance Weave is getting anything more than just Ultimate Weapon treatment.
Its just that the balance decisions that BHVR makes are perplexing to me. OP pointed out. They do things like "lets nerf billy even though nurse still exists, because our kill rates show that shes bad" even though it is obvious she is not.
Or, "lets nerf weave attunement because people are comboing it with franklin's" but "pain res + dms that can regress a gen by 18 seconds, then block it for another 50 and was BUFFED recently" is totally fine? But we need to deal with "checks notes" 12 meters of aura reading that can be "removed" by a little smart play on the survivor's part.
It really just makes no sense to me.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
@GeneralV ITS COMING (hopefully)
Bring back old freddy. He was so much better thematically.
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@MrDardon said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WWLIY2Y8PAQP/image.png
Interested in what Myers will get. Also, 100 % Dracula nerfs even though Nurse exists.
I love how Weave is still on the list, and its obvious they are going to nerf it, despite the fact that people have stopped using the combo because they realized having 2 perks that can be removed by spending 15 seconds pressing "r" is not good, and its better to run 2 more gen slowdown perks.
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Enjoy your game of tunneling and camping and holding m1 for 90 seconds i guess. The rest of us will enjoy the actual fun parts of the game.
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@BurnedTerrormisu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824775#Comment_3824775
You brought a very good point, probably the most important point of all:
have the kill rates increased because of the "giving up" epidemic?That would be the point where we would need the official data. So we can only speculate what it actually looks like. However, both possibilities are frightening and would concern the players.
The kill rates have increased due the giving up epidemic:
First of all, it would show that there is a serious problem on the part of the survivors. The reasons for the epidemic are too diverse to discuss here and every player has different points of views how to deal with it. At least we can say measures should be taken as soon as possible. But can we tell how the real kill rates would look like? How do you filter out for example the matches where the second person got hooked give up? I think you cant without personal influence of the person who edits the data.The kill rates have NOT increased due the giving up epidemic:
Then all the survivors feel wrong? the new maps with the dead zones have no positive influence on the kill rates? For killers who received a base kit change nothing has changed? On the contrary, this means that the real kill rates have actually decreased since one has to assume that certain percentages are due to giving up. In this case, how do you say what the actual kill rates are and which killers are too weak or just not fun to go against?For BHVR it presents a different problem. They no longer have reliable data to work with. They claim for themself they do mostly data driven changes. Now that we've established that we don't have any backed up data, it means that BHVR is making changes blind. Is that why we're seeing weird changes like the recent SM nerf? The huntress buff nobody asked for. Is that why they're trying to find out what the community thinks about the reversal of virtually all of the Trickster changes?
For me all of that is very concerning.
I'm stating that i think even the official stats are inflated because of this.
Either that, or one has to truly believe that Skull Merchant actually legitimately has a 70+% kill rate (prenerf at least) and is the most OP killer ever in the history of dead by daylight (not even 5 blink, yes FIVE BLINK, nurse could cross that threshold)
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@MaddieMage said:
Where are your stats to show the majority of survivors are like this? Because I play meme killer friendly killer all the time and I’ve gotten maybe 1 out of 15 matches of survivors behaving this way. Sometimes survivors will just pop gens and leave because they don’t understand I’m memeing or they just don’t trust it. But I don’t get the toxic behavior when I play.
Point being.. my anecdotal experience is not proof of survivors statistically being one way or another the same as yours isn’t. So maybe post some stats if you’re gonna claim “majority of survivors are toxic” just because you’re upset at a few bad encounters you personally had.
Asking for "stats" on something with which it is impossible for us to get anything other than data on our own personal experience is disingenuous. My personal experience dictates, that the vast majority of the time i play, regardless of it is survivor or killer, everyone is a complete toxic douchebag that results in literally the most toxic community i have ever seen in a game. And this is coming from someone who plays DotA.
Its not just about words, its about actions. People don't "BM" in DotA nearly as often with their ACTIONS. Sure, they say bad words at you and slurs, but you just mute them and move on. DBD is on a different level, because people actively take actions in the game for the purpose of harassing the other side. No other game is like that on the scale of DBD in my experience. Sure, it happens in some games, but in DBD, it is nearly every single match i play.
Since the event started, i can count on 1 hand the amount of games that ended in a simple "gg wp" at the end where everyone genuinely were playing to have a good time, rather than ruin someone elses day.
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@Autharia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824775#Comment_3824775
The give up player ones generally arn't counted so its higher.
I don't believe that is true. They remove DCs from the data, but not giving up. Also giving up has significantly different definitions, its not just a "Hook suicide"
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@Lixadonna said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824320#Comment_3824320
Do you think Kill Rates have declined? What are you seeking to validate that could be a concern to Playerbase? Do you even believe the Kill Rates from that time?
I suspect they have probably increased. But i hold to the theory that kill rates are only as high as they are due to the "giving up" epidemic among survivors right now.
Seriously like 40% of my games a survivor gives up in the first 3 minutes.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823031#Comment_3823031
tbh tt liking the idea of balancing around hooks is one of the biggest broken clock moments in dbd
also the fact you attribute "balance for hooks" to him explains so much lol
It is literally what he says every time balance comes up. I'm not attributing it to him, just pointing out that its something that he says, and everyone who is against the idea brings him up for some reason.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823031#Comment_3823031
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823054#Comment_3823054
For real though, the guy is sometimes a bit unsufferable with his rages and rants, but he was spot on with this one. Hooks would be a so much better metric to go by. Imagine a world if any hook on every survivor filled the hook meter, and once the killer got 8 hooks, the next survivor hooked would be sacrificed, no matter if they got hooked one time or by some fluke of fate, 7 times.
Then gen rushing could be handled and finde tuned in a similar way and the game would probably so much more fun to play.
This is precisely how i think they should do it.