Reinami
Reinami
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- Reinami
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Ok, just happened again, and playing back the footage i think i see what happened. Something is going on with dead hard. The game crashed all 4 times that a survivor was able to block a hit with dead hard.
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@Mandy said:
I am going to throw a potential spanner in the works on this - please no hating me, but I do believe there's a bug attached with this perk that means killers who have vault in their power - so Wesker, Legion in Frenzy etc, are benefitting from it when they shouldn't be. So think of it working in a similar way to Bamboozle in that respect.
Real shame that we can't have nice things like this. Why is it that big of a problem that a perk synergizes with some killers better than others?
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I feel like this one has to be bugged, and they meant to make it 80 seconds. Right?
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3924949#Comment_3924949
Because they just found the glitches a few days ago when Orela dropped. They could have been accidental, not abuse.
They also did not ban anyone for the Oni exploit with Iron Grasp years ago, or the Flashlight Locker exploit that existed for several days before flashlights got killswitched.
It seems the policy of the Devs on glitch based exploits is to assume good faith and that anyone using them before the killswitch was misguided, why be draconian when malice can be explained by mistake or not realizing there was any abuse going on? They acted downright quick this time actually. Again… quicker than the flashlight locker exploit.
It has been stated multiple times before that they will not ban people for things they can killswitch. If something is bad enough, they kill switch it. No reason to ban players when they may not even realize what is going on.
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@HeroLives said:
they said they’re going to buff any killer to meet the 60% intended kr that’s affected by this change.
Would like a source for that. But even if true, great, we get to spend the next 3 years buffing the bad killers by giving them a basekit addon or 2, meanwhile everyone is already just playing nurse blight and spirit anyway.
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@Nephil1682 said:
behavior has been a company to tell us that they are accessible and try to make the game as accessible as possible, but as we all know from killers like the spirit the words tend to be hollow at times and now these color changes reaffirm that. As a color blind person I’ll be real with everyone, the color blind mode is abysmal and doesn’t change the colors the way I need them to and now with the rarity changes that had an outcry from the colorblind community behavior has decided that accessibility just isn’t worth it because the change may make it slightly easier (not even noticeable because the items are sorted by rarity anyways) is more important than their existing players with color blindness. It feels like a slap in the face for having lousy cones in my eyes. I’ve been one in the past to give the company the benefit of the doubt but it truly feels like we were heard but not listened to. There’s a word for that, it’s called ignored.
Sincerely, a color blind player.
Still have no accessibility options for people who are deaf or hard of hearing on the killer side.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923938#Comment_3923938
The point is, take literally the best killer player of each killer in the entire world. And pit them up against even like a top 1000 team of 4 survivors and have them play 10 matches in a row. Lets pretend its on a map that is perfectly fair, and RNG is completely removed.
Its habitual at this point. You are literally walking back things you said within the last hour; when someone disproves you. Like its now apparently not okay to use the best killer player but back here it was.
You're goal post shifting now. Against data. And now into what suits you, even though theres no data for it, just whatever number you can make up in your head with 2000s and 0.5%.
You just got done citing data what happened? Doesnt align with reality?
I know it doesnt. Thats the point Reinami.You don’t get to ignore real, recorded dominance just because it’s inconvenient to your argument.
And you dont get to cherry pick data from things you cite, but then refute data that comes from that same source.
And you dont get to just make up data in your head like you are doing here.
At this point Reinami, I would step away from responding to me if you are going to constantly backtrack against things you say yourself, ignore parts of data you cite, and make up data; its not providing any meaningful discussion and you arent staying grounded in your own words.Answer the question. I have asked that question since my first post. And you refuse to do it. I already said i agree with you. If you believe the game should be balanced around the highest level players nurse should in fact be nerfed. As a nurse main, i will be one of the first to tell you she needs a rework. I personally cannot remember the last time i lost a game as nurse. Sure sometimes i get draws, but legitimately? I can't remember, its probably been years since i lost a game as her.
But you refuse to take that to its logical conclusion because you know what will happen.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923930#Comment_3923930
Let me make this really simple for you:
Yes, you are being contradictory, all over this thread.
You said this:
"If you balance the game around high skill players, you MUST contend with the fact that at the highest level, Nurse is pretty much one of the only viable killers."
But when I bring up actual, documented, recorded high-skill performance, like SupaAlf’s 1,132 win streak, or tournament teams like Team Eternal, suddenly it “doesn’t matter.” Now you’re dismissing the clearest examples we have of high-level gameplay.
Then you pivot and say:
"But the data doesn’t show it. Even Nurse, when looking at HIGH MMR per BHVR’s stats, always shows her at the middle of the pack at best."
So now you’re hugging BHVR’s public kill rate data, which is still averaged out across thousands of players with wildly different skill levels, even at "high MMR." You’re moving the goalposts to whatever supports your point in the moment.
You can’t claim Nurse is only viable at high skill and then reject high-skill evidence when it makes her look broken. You also can’t dismiss win streaks as subjective while acting like kill rate stats are gospel; especially when those stats are shaped by player volume, not peak potential.
Since you brought up the stats? Let’s look at them.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/I79LMK6VC0JL/image.png
You don’t get to call Nurse "only viable at high level" and then turn around and ignore the actual high-level evidence when it makes her look too strong. That’s not a consistent argument, it’s just cherry-picking to protect your stance.
If we’re talking about real balance at the top level, we need to acknowledge that Nurse isn’t just viable, she’s in a completely different league.
You've now triple downed on something you aren't even staying consistent with.I personally don't look at that in terms of "high level" because 1800 MMR is not "high level" in my book, 1800 in chess is like a "good club level" player.. MMR is capped somewhere in the 2000s. I'm talking about the top say, 0.5% of players.
If you believe those stats, then you believe that Freddy is better than nurse, so why are we talking about nurse? But again, i'm not really caring about those stats, i was more bringing them up because most people look at them and care about them for some reason. If we are talking about above that level, sure again, lets talk about Alf.
I'm not rejecting your evidence, but you are refusing to answer the simple question.
But again, you brought up Alf, which again, i DO NOT DISAGREE WITH YOU SO STOP SAYING I DO. Lets say we again balance around what the HIGHEST LEVEL PLAYER is capable of (I.E. Alf) as nurse.
Again, if you balance the game around what the best players in the world are doing, then yes, by all means, look at Alf and nerf the nurse. But you have refused to answer the question, HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THAT WITH THE FACT THAT AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF PLAY, ONLY LIKE 4 KILLERS ARE VIABLE.
Again, if you took the best killer player for each killer in the world, and pit them against eternal for 10 games. How many of them do you think would actually get even close to a 50% win rate?
So, answer my question, should the game be balanced around average skill players, or high skill players?
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923926#Comment_3923926
Which one is it with you? The data does or doesnt matter?
You just got done saying a bunch of killers that show up on stats HIGHER than her, at high mmr nontheless, are not viable.
But here you cite me the stats?
Reinami you are being contradictory with every post.I'm not being contradictory. You are bringing up win streaks which don't matter for balance for the very reasons i mentioned. Also everyone comes up with their own definition of what a "Win" is for those win streaks. For example, someone might see a single survivor escaping the gate as a loss. Whereas someone else might think what matters is getting more than 2 kills.
My point is simply this.
Do you believe the game should be balanced around AVERAGE level players, or HIGH LEVEL players. If you balance the game around HIGH LEVEL players. Again, i'm not disagreeing with you, sure, lets nerf the nurse because of what players like Alf can do. But you still MUST contend with the fact that there are like 4 viable killers in the game at that level, and either massively buff the rest of the killers, or massively nerf survivors as a whole.
But if you aren't willing to do that because of what i will do to the AVERAGE players, then you must by definition look at nurse from the lens of the AVERAGE player. Which if we do that, she's probably not fine, but actually needs buffs, or at least to be made easier to play.
You don't get to have it both ways without being openly biased against killers only. Unless of course you think the game should be balanced around what the BEST killer players are able to do, but also what the AVERAGE survivor players are able to do. In which case, you are just biased. Which is fine, but at least be consistent here is all i'm asking.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923910#Comment_3923910
Its not though.
And your post is entirely contradictory and inconsistent.If you balance the game around average skill players, you MUST contend with the fact that nurse is one of the lowest, if not THE lowest kill rate killer in the game, meaning that she likely needs massive buffs
If you balance the game around high skill players, you MUST conted with the fact that at the highest level, nurse is pretty much one of the only viable killers.
You cant have it both ways
Nurse at the highest level =/= survivors at the highest level
SupaAlf = highest level
1132 wins in a row
Team Eternal = highest level
50 wins in a row + or - 5
So nurse at its highest level (that any player has ever documented/recorded in this games history) had to play 1132 straight games to finally lose.
A full comms team, that plays tournaments, gets paid money, plays for prizes. (that any group of players have every documented/recorded in this games history) Can only manage a win streak of around 50.
Reinami, these two are so divorced from being equal from eachother that they dont live in the same universe
Let me fix what you posted above:
1) Your average killer player, is horrendous at nurse (as seen by stats multiple times)
2) Your average killer player, is excelling at killers at a high level, you deem nonviable
We know:
1) Nurse is THE strongest killer in the game
2) Other killers arent even close to her power
Given these facts backed by data released to us, as well as published records of the above win streaks, and her unique playstyle.So when it comes to Nurse, the usual arguments of “what about high level,” “what about low level,” or “what about average players” simply don’t apply.
•At low level, players fail because she’s hard to use.
•At high level, she dominates so hard she breaks the game’s balance (1132 wins in a row).
•At average level, she still has access to mechanics that ignore core survivor gameplay entirely — she just requires reps to unlock that dominance.Nurse isn’t a matter of matchmaking brackets or skill levels — she’s a design outlier, and that’s where the problem lies.
But the data doesn't show it. Even nurse when looking at HIGH MMR per BHVRs stats always shows her at the middle of the pack at best.
And win streaks are not a valid way of looking at things because people who do win streaks often do things like "oh well i'm pausing this win streak becasue i'm doing xyz challnege, or i'm too tired today" that's not really a valid way to look at balance when you can, be "on your win streak" and win a few games, then be "off your win streak" and lose a bunch of games tanking your MMR just to repeat it.
I could go on a billion game win streak as perkless nurse who doesn't use her power and lets survivors finish 5 gens before i hook anyone by doing that. Be pretty easy to fire up an account, win a game, and then just be like "oh i'm off my streak" and lose 20 games in a row. Assuming i had the time.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923826#Comment_3923826
If you are truly a nurse main then you need to have some humbleness as its an entirely different mode of play compared to working around pallets, dealing with strong vaults, no zone play, exhaustion perks … pretty much everything.
I mained her as it was my first killer, but I do NOT take her seriously anymore. Its the same story every time I revisit her, your opponents are completely helpless. That post I made above linking to my solutions; shows you just how stupid it is. Why the actual living F are you able to cover a quarter of the map in distance with 2 blinks and able to get a hit WITH A PALLET IN YOUR FACE???
The game is mind numbingly easy playing her once you reach a certain level. You shouldnt be rewarded with this at some skill progression, there still should be some fight back, but there just is not.
You have to nerf yourself heavily and you'll still win ie:
1) let the survivors complete a gen as you constantly 5 out EVEN spreading hooks
2) go somewhere in the map YOU KNOW there is no survivors just to not TR scare them off progression as the only counter to her, which isnt even really a counter; is pre run her TR
3) nod/spin do silly gestures etc.
4) not run stronger perks
5) go out of your way, even if someone is standing in front of you, not to tunnel them regardless of gen progression
it takes an absolute disgusting team like we are talking one in a few hundred, to have any noticeable chance against you. As well as an unfavorable map.The only reason she has not recieved further nerfs is because of her skill floor, its the highest in the game of all killers. I think this is a mistake by the devs, we should NOT look at this factor AT ALL, that is purely skill issue holding back further nerfs.
Im in no way shape or form as good as SupaAlf with 1132 wins in a row but I am def in the 400-500 range without a doubt, I know this because the addon for lunge RAN OUT, while still spending points, and I had over 400 of them and NEVER lost a round.
Even the stupid addon that disables your power for a minute and you walk at 4.6, I got constant wins with. Even meme ONLY Campbells last breath challenges (can only damage on a full two blinks) I have gotten wins with.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923844#Comment_3923844
- Spirit is still good though
- Sigu has plenty of good play
- I main plague/artist now and you are crazy thinking she isnt viable.
- Dracula has traversal, antiloop, good catch up, hes a great killer.
- Twins in low and high MMR was just shown in the top 5 kill rates so no, they are viable, and excel at this game
Stopping your list maybe its true about YOU for all these things but definetely not in general. You say artist you just run away from a loop and your fine… wesker isnt viable…
Maybe you are just a nurse PURE and you try to play these killers you have little experience on and think they are all terrible?You have to branch out of nurse, as well as play survivor from the looks of it
Everything you are talking about is when playing a high level nurse against an "average" survivor team. The math is far different when you pit high level nurse against a high level team.
Again, if you are nerfing nurse because she is only good for a handful of players, then you MUST by definition be balancing the game around HIGH LEVEL players. In which case, where are the MASSIVE buffs for over half the killer cast, where are the MASSIVE nerfs for survivors given what they are capable of at those high levels?
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
Competitive modes are usually how games die a slow and painful death
If you want a real-time example, see Team Fortress 2 and how disastrous Meet Your Match went
I think that is the opposite for games like DotA and CS, and LoL. The fact that they have a competitive scene is what has not only kept them alive, but allowed them to grow.
DBD tries to act like a competitive game by using things like MMR, and balancing things constantly. Do you think Mario Party uses MMR to match people? Does Mario Kart regularly do balance patches to change up character or kart stats?
Smash bros. actively tried to remove the competitive scene intentionally by adding things like tripping into Brawl. And what happened? Everyone hated that game and it died rather quickly.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3923767#Comment_3923767
We have plenty of killers outside of Nurse and Blight that are viable at higher levels of play. Spirit, Larry, Plague, Dracula, Twins, Wesker, Billy, maybe even Artist, Oni and Pinhead. Kaneki might be on that list too, but it will take time to figure that out.
We can't blame killers being generally weak as the reason for the gap between say Nurse and Spirit. The Spirit is not weak or underpowered. She's extremely lethal. Possibly the most well balanced killer in the game. She and other strong killers like her are not the problem, Nurse and Blight are.
- Spirit has been nerfed constantly and isn't as good because you can just know where she is all the time now, she is nowhere near as good a she used to be
- Singularity is a joke, he shreds through pallets quick, but oh look, you shredded 2 pallets and now 3 gens are gone, guess you just lose.
- Plague is not viable because the survivors just don't cleanse until the proper times and she has no power the whole game, basically the entire game hinges on whether she can get a couple of downs during the 1 free use of her power she gets, and thats assuming the fountain isn't RNG'd into some awful location.
- Dracula is maybe viable, but certainly his matchup is a 3 or a 4 out of 10.
- Twins is not viable, you do not have time to keep switching back and forth between victor and the survivors can stay in groups of 2 to completely counter your power.
- Wesker is not viable at high level play, his power is very ineffectively at most loops, so get looped at shack for 3 gens i guess?
- Maybe billy, again a 3 or 4 out of 10 matchup. Crouch tech is still in the game making it extremely difficult to hit anything against good survivors, but the instadown capability does make it possible for him to snowball very quickly. Still a much more difficult match for him than the survivors.
- Come on now "leave the loop" artist?
- Oni? He has no power, just predrop pallets and good job you do 5 gens before he even lands a hit.
- Pinhead? The only thing he has going for him is the box which is super easy to deal with as a coordinated team. You realize that the power itself basically gains you 0 distance right? And the only thing you can use it at is looops?
- Ghoul is probably viable, although the latest nerfs definitely push him lower. It will be something that i think after people get months and years of practice with him where they don't need to break pallets anymore, then he might hit that point. But it remains to be seen on that.
The point is, take literally the best killer player of each killer in the entire world. And pit them up against even like a top 1000 team of 4 survivors and have them play 10 matches in a row. Lets pretend its on a map that is perfectly fair, and RNG is completely removed.
Out of those killers, i would suspect most killers get less than 1 or 2 wins, with only nurse, blight, and ghoul potentially reaching a 50% win rate, with nurse having a chance at a >50% win rate. And a handful of others getting maybe 3 wins out of it. That's a big problem, and is why you see people complaining that everyone is playing the same killers.
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@toxik_survivor said:
Nurse has been a killer that's been labeled as OP since she was released, however, Nurse nerfs won't do anything, there needs to be something completely new to balance her. However, I don't see her being changed because of her skill cap being so high, and her kill percentage being the worst in DBD simply because people don't know how to player her and then don't try and learn. So to be honest I'm at a neutral stance at nurse, I really don't mind her right now even though she's definitely still the strongest killer in the game, besides maybe kanekis crazy tentacle hitbox being a guaranteed first hit. The problem with making her worse is that in the future nobody is going to play her because she's too hard to initiate and learn, when you have so many more exciting and powerful options.
If she was ever to get changed, here's my idea- Add a new attack type to her and call it "Cursing." Kinda like original Freddy, you have to curse a survivor in order to injure them, but its simultaneous. As soon as you blink within distance of a survivor, you actively press a button to curse them, disabling all there perks for 10 seconds and putting them into the cursed domain. Once that is done you can just chase and down them like normal. There is no way to get out of the cursed state, you are in it for the rest of the game.
It's a good way to reduce the overwhelming map pressure nurse has. Simply just add a little more time that that the nurse has to take to down someone for the first time.
As a nurse main, i'm going to say the same thing i say in every single thread about her.
Do you balance the game around average skill players, or top level players?
- If you balance the game around average skill players, you MUST contend with the fact that nurse is one of the lowest, if not THE lowest kill rate killer in the game, meaning that she likely needs massive buffs
- If you balance the game around high skill players, you MUST conted with the fact that at the highest level, nurse is pretty much one of the only viable killers.
You don't get to have it both ways.
Your proposal would basically make her even worse for average skill players, while only slightly nerfing her at the high levels. The reason she's so good at a high level is because she can end chases extremely quickly a good nurse is going to land a hit with every blink, that's a chase ending within 10 seconds or so. Adding a 3rd forced "attack" to that, just extends that chase to, what, maybe 16-20 seconds? She's still going to be extremly strong in the hands of a good player.
But again, that brings me back to my point, in the hands of a good player. Why do people always want to nerf nurse despite the fact that she's only as good as she is when played by an extremely skilled or experienced player, but when we talk about nerfing survivors or buffing other killers its "won't someone think of the casuals?!"
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@jokere98 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/444551/new-survivor-is-overpowered-too-quiet
i believe they said at some point that it is "harder than they expected", so, they gave up on it
How hard is it to throw the audio files in and equalize them. Scott Jund, who i often massively disagree with on the majority of his takes, even posted a video showing how easy it would be one time.
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@xGodSendDeath said:
I played solo queue survivor tonight for 3 hours to get the new survivor's adept and work on the trophies. The only killers I played against were Ghoul, Blight, Nurse, and Billy. I did not play against a single M1 killer. Anyone else have a similar experience?
Constantly nerfing everything killers have until the only viable killers are those 4? Yeah i don't know what you expected.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922322#Comment_3922322
I have played 6 matches or of him now. I also played him for a bit after release and the first patch but he still seemed too strong so I stopped playing the game again.
To me he now feels like he could actually be balanced. The counterplay of not dropping the pallet might exist, not sure of that myself yet, but now it seems like you can't always get a free hit when vaulting the pallet in enraged mode, which is a good thing in my opinion. The nerf to his cooldown after breaking a pallet is also great in my opinion. It's short enough so that he can still use his power to catch up to survivors effectively, but survivors now do have a somewhat better chance at getting to another tile.
The counterplay of just standing at the pallet is interesting, I'll keep an eye out for that.
Also, Nemesis doesn't have insane mobility and the ability to get injures as easily, so I don't think that's a good comparison.
Yes nemesis doesn't have insane mobility, but he also has NPCs that travel the map and harass and potentially hit survivors, he also is able to break pallets with his power. Different killers are different. We are talking about the very specific scenario you pointed out of "how do i loop this" which i gave the answer, it is no different (if anything it is worse) than nemesis. So you treat it the same way you would treat nemesis.
But honestly, the fact that you said "i played 6 matches with him" really shows me exactly what i need to know. Try playing him for 100 and them come back and tell me he has no counterplay. 6 games is not enough to understand how the killer works.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3922204#Comment_3922204
The cooldown of canceling his power is not very strong, are you sure that works? I feel like that would only work on very small pallet loops and that's it.
And it doesn't change the fact that the counter play is gone once the pallet is down. The nerf he got was well deserved, and from my experience so far, might not be enough. I was still able to get some hits against survivors after using the vault at a normal pallet loop easily. They might have to increase the vaulting time ever so slightly as well, like to 1.7 seconds from 1.5 seconds.
Have you played him? It doesn't sound like you have.
The cancellation duration is about the same as nemesis, during which he moves super slow (slower than nemesis cancellation btw). Not much different from most other killers with a power like that. Also, during this time the killer is likely stopping the movement so they can predict you dropping the pallet, so you get a little extra distance there. Usually enough time to get around again.
Then there is the better mindgame of, just stand there. And if they use the power, then drop the pallet, and stun them, if they cancel, drop the pallet and stun them, if they stand there, you just stand there. Because unlike other killers who can hit over or through a pallet, you still have to land the m1, so getting hit by the grab does nothing if you just immediately stun them.
Or are you going to say that nemesis is overpowered now? Because the pallet game is exactly the same there. The different being that the ghoul doesn't break the pallet with the power.
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@Jacknalls_Paw said:
In fact, The Blight should receive the same treatment
If that were the case what would blight's power be? Becasue he certainly can't use it at the majority of loops in the game
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@_Demidrol said:
This isn't right. Once all generators are repaired, it's only the second of the three stages of the game. There's a huge number of builds designed specifically for this stage. And if you want to end the match faster, you can open the gates yourself — that will trigger the endgame collapse timer.
4 minutes and you're free.
Sometimes i want to end the match and go to the next one, and don't want to have to stare a bunch of people teabagging me, then calling me racial slurs in the endgame chat.
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@ThatRyanB said:
As we move towards the 8.7.0 release, we wanted to thank everyone for trying out the PTB and for sharing valuable feedback. We wanted to go over some notable changes you can expect.
Haste and Hindered Stacking
The community has shared a lot of valuable feedback regarding the Haste and Hindered Stacking changes as tested on the PTB. After careful consideration by the Design team, we will not be moving forward with all of the changes. We will be moving forward allowing Haste and Hindered to stack again. The perks you saw in the PTB will continue to go Live in 8.7.0 while we monitor their usage on Live servers. The exception will be Champion of Light; this will receive changes prior to release. Keep an eye out for the Patch Notes for full details!
Abandon Option Trial Outcomes
With the new Abandon option added for Killers, we’ve noticed there is some confusion around the results on different scenarios:
Killer
Scenario #1 – If all Survivors Are Bots:
- The Killer can Abandon the match without receiving a Disconnection Penalty and the match is considered a DRAW.
Scenario #2 – If the match has continued for 10 consecutive minutes without a generator being completed or regressed:
- The Killer can Abandon the match without receiving a Disconnection Penalty and the match is considered a LOSS.
DEV NOTE: Due to a bug, the endgame screen will currently show Survivors as sacrificed. This will be fixed in an upcoming Bug Fix patch.
Survivor
Scenario #1 - When all other remaining Survivors left alive in the Trial are bots:
- The last Survivor can Abandon the match without receiving a Disconnection Penalty and the match is considered a DRAW.
Scenario #2 - When all Survivors alive in a Trial are in the Dying State:
- The Survivors can Abandon the match without receiving a Disconnection Penalty and the match is considered a DRAW.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ECKM8DAU0A3L/abandonoptiontrialoutcomes.png
See you in The Fog!
The Dead by Daylight Team
Why is every survivor being downed considered a draw, that seems like a killer win to me.
Why is killer DCing when there are only bots left on survivor side a draw? That should be a killer win.
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@SaltyNooty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917571#Comment_3917571
If the survey is about survivors current experience of the game. . . Why in the world would they ask that question?
I get the point you're trying to make, but this isn't about 'Why killers feel the need to tunnel & Slug' Because no matter which way a person puts it, it's still a crappy thing to do: Period.Because its relevant. You are very clearly showing some heavy survivor bias here if you aren't thinking about the other side at all.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917571#Comment_3917571
choy had a video where he explained why he did it and he basically said “because I want to win more” even tho he said in the same video he “hates sweaty games”. They only do it because they want to win more
Don't you think that is relevant to the developers? Maybe its relevant to ask them why they feel they need to do that to win for example? Or why they think the strategy is effective?
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917285#Comment_3917285
“All of the questions were around how it feels to BE slugged, but they didn't have a single question about if people feel like they HAVE to slug, or WHY they slug.”
Because it leads to more wins especially vs teams that have no coordination. Thats why
Don't you think maybe it is relevant to ask the players who are doing that game action why they are doing it?
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3917044#Comment_3917044
No it was already stated the killer has priority on several actions even if they have the worse ping.
That's not how that works though.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
It feels so survivor sided tbh
Remember the slugging one? All of the questions were around how it feels to BE slugged, but they didn't have a single question about if people feel like they HAVE to slug, or WHY they slug.
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@Mr_Digi said:
This should be looked into. currently the priority is the killer, but it should be whoever of the 2 in the interaction has the best ping. Just played against a wesker with constant 500+ ping, and it was just unplayable. got hit through walls and teleported into he's arms even though it would be impossible for him to get me if he also had 40 ping. please make it so the bad ping players dont get rewarded by having bad internet. the bad internet should have the bad interaction..
That's not how it works. The server doensn't just accept what the killer was seeing on their screen. Its an interpolation of where you are vs where they are on the server side.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915991#Comment_3915991
That implies that when the current MMR system places an 1,800 MMR player with an extremely high MMR player, it's an EXTREMELY RARE event.
So I really don't see the problem here. Ok, so you say there's a big MMR bracket. Why is that a problem if it's an extremely rare event for an 1,800 MMR player to really be affected by giant leaps? And for the players with extremely high MMR, there really isn't a better solution unless you want them to be stuck in extremely long queue times.
That's the opposite though. If the point was that say otz has 2100, or something which is rumored to be the cap. And if they have the matchmaking super strict on making sure its only similar MMR players, and it takes 30 minutes for him to find a game. Then when they turn it off it takes 1-2 minutes. That means that its matching him with far lower players most of the time, for example.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915857#Comment_3915857
Knowing how wide the top bracket is, doesn't matter much if we don't know how often matchmaking makes giant leaps. If the giant leaps are rare for the majority of players, then it shouldn't matter much.
Ideally, the only people that should be affected a lot by an MMR soft cap, are the people at extremely high MMR numbers, that have way less people around their MMR number.
We do know that though, they did an experiment a while ago where the made matchmaking more restrictive and force more fair matches. And the result was streamersl ike otz, and scott and true and so on took 30+ minutes to get into a match.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3915842#Comment_3915842
The big problem is that with the official BHVR stats that were released today, the killer stats said "MMR 1,800 and above", but the survivor stats said "HIGH MMR". Is high MMR the same thing as 1,800+?
And if we're making the cutoff point the top 30%, then 30% of 4-SWFs are overperforming?
And why did the previous stats say TOP 5% MMR, as if that was the cutoff point? Is TOP 5% MMR the same thing as 1,800+ MMR?
It was confirmed a while ago by some people that matchmaking has basically 4 brackets. And the top bracket is at 1700 MMR.
While the game does try to match you close in MMR, if you are 1700 you are still technically in the same pool as otz who is probably like 2500+ for example.
This is why a lot of streamers have such wild swings in play often. Where 1 game they are playing against a SWF comp team and the next is a bunch of randos, because there are so few people at that high MMR that the matchmaking has to quickly expand its search bringing in people that are way worse than you.
For context, even just 100 points of difference leads to a big skill disparity. For example, if one player is say 1800, and another is 1900, the probability that the 1900 player wins is 52%, the probability of a draw is 24% and the probability of the 1800 winning is 25% (these are rounded btw so don't add up to 100).
Realistically you'd want to match people within 50 points at most of each other. But in a game like DBD that is extremely difficult when there are so few players at the highest levels, so you are seeing big differences in matchmaking quality.
The point is, that the game has to balance around waiting a long time and fair matches. There was a point a while ago where they had a matchmaking test for example, and you saw streamers waiting legit like 30+ minutes to find a match. Which really isn't acceptable.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Are we allowed to know what percentage of players are in the 1,800+ MMR range?
We just got official BHVR stats that list "MMR 500 and above" and "MMR 1,800 and above", but we have absolutely no idea what percentage of players this is.
When BHVR says Blight's doing well at 1,800 MMR and above, is that the top 5%? Is it the top 1%? Are we allowed to know how rare it is for a Blight player to perform over the 60% kill rate?
For the "High MMR" survivor stats, are we allowed to know what percentage of players are "high MMR"? Is it still 5%? Is 1,800+ MMR the top 5%?
MMR is a derivation of Elo. While its not always 1 for 1. The calculations, formulas and such are the same.
The only real difference between MMR and elo, is that there is a lot of secret sauce that goes into calculating what the k-value should be (for those who are familiar with elo and kvalue)
Based on that knowledge, we can look at the chess elo distribution on a site like lichess.
Bear in mind ignore the "Your rating" field there, i have only played 1 game of classical chess on lichess and lost it, and lost like 400 points since it was my first game.
Based on this you can see that 1800+ is around the top 30% of a players.
And now you see the problem with DBD in general. If DBDs distribution is even somewhat similar to this, this means that someone who is 1800 is part of the top bracket, the same bracket that current best in the world magnus carlsen is in chess.
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@Caiman said:
The only change I think No Mither needs is that it starts the trial deactivated, then becomes permanently activated the first time you become injured.
Yep, this is precisely how it should work. It would then be able to be better paired with stuff like the invocation perks, because as it stands if you have no mither i'm checking the basement for you early on.
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@Chiky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3912973#Comment_3912973
wait what???? i cant stop playing the event and play normals and still get bonus BP??? why didnt I know that??????
Playing solo q in the event has been extra miserable. I dont get why killers need to be so sweaty instead of farm...
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/61J12E0QN28Z/1000126657.jpg
I literally get something like this on every match by just toying around with the survivors and letting them all live...
Ah, but when I play survivor if I get 40K I get too many, and that means I had tk suffer after being tunneled and slugged at 5 gens. Not to mention that repairing the new gens give 0 BP as well, so it's even worse.
That's what happens when gen defense perks don't work. You have to do something to slow the game down.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913157#Comment_3913157
This is such a dumb oversimplification…
'Giving .5 CoH because CoH has an aura reading element on other survivors and swiffers get that for free'
That aura reading doesn't make 'half a CoH', not even close. To then multiply that by 4 because 'everyone gets it!' is even worse because that implies that a full swiffer gets two copies of CoH for free, which is miles off the mark.
Some of these interpretations are also incredibly generous, like Spine Chill and Alert treating a swiffer as if they have immaculate, 24/7 updates on killer location, or permanent wall-hacks, which is nonsense. Same with Detective's Hunch/Small Game, which both give totem locations, something that swiffers don't get. They just get the ability to communicate these locations to each other once they find them.
It's almost like this oversimplification was specifically designed to massively inflate the estimated value of swiffers.
Like i said, even if you ignore the half points and go with just the full, its still 76 perks.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913123#Comment_3913123
And survivors only win in high-mmr because of the same thing, but perk-wise. Where are the survivors winning or even standing a chance while using chest-builds or perkless?
In PVP games there will never be a META that's fun for your opponents, this is seen in League/Dota/Rivals/Overwatch etc.
Because efficiency in PVP games means letting your opponent have as little a chance to act as possible.
I disagree with them removing playstyles from the game and would much rather basekit buffs to alleviate the pain of playing against meta tactics, which is exactly why I agree with basekit BT being added and am not opposed to giving killers basekit perks either.
I just don't believe now is a good time because the game seems fine for killers to me, it would probably be more appropriate once basekit tunnel protections are added as this will be a giant nerf to the meta killer stratagem.
But the point is that there aren't any survivor perks anymore that are "required" because of all the basekit things. They just add to on top of what they already have. Killers gen defense is complete trash without perks, for example.
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@cheapslurpiee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913117#Comment_3913117
Please list all 63.
So since some perks are multi-function, or they have different impacts based on certain things. What i'll do is go off a point system.
So if discord, or coms in general gives full access to the perk, that will be 1 point, if it only gives partial, i'll give it a fraction of a point based on that. So, for example something like kindred, would give a full point, because the survivor on the hook, can tell the team where the killer is, and knowing where your team at is something you could do. Whereas say, something like say, Blood pact, you get half the effect, in terms of aura reading, but you wouldn't get the haste from coms. So i'd say that's half a point.
I'll also explain my reasoning for each perk, then also at the end, we'll list some things that coms and coordination gives you that you can't get from perks.
So here we go.
- Aftercare
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading only
- Alert
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer while generally chasing another survivor, and tells you which pallets are being broken. Something your teammate could call out
- Any means necessary
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on dropped pallets, something you can call out to your team when you drop it and run away and the killer doesn't break it.
- Better together
- 1 Point
- Gives aura reading of which gen you are working on to your team, and gives you aura reading on your teammates
- Blast mine
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the blast mined gen, giving your location out to your team. But obviously not the effect of the mine itself
- Blood pact
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on your teammates but not the haste
- Bond
- 1 Point
- Gives aura reading on your team
- Boon: Circle of Healing
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on your teammates and gives general location of your current teammate when the boon is lit, but coms don't give the healing effect
- Breakdown
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer, but not the effect of the hook
- Buckle up
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer
- Chemical trap
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the pallet its on, giving you a rough location of your teammates and where someone is getting chased
- Clairvoyance
- 0.5 points
- While not at the start of the match, with coms you can find all this information out generally in the first 20-30 seconds of the match from all your teammates
- Corrective Action
- 0.5 points
- Aura reading on your teammates, but not the other part of the effect
- Counterforce
- 0.25 points
- Aura reading on totems, again not at the start of the match, but during the match you can call out totem spots pretty easily as you find them
- Dark sense
- 1 point
- Aura reading on the killer
- Deja vu
- 0.5 points
- Gives you locations of generators, easy to call out to the team, but not the repair speed bonus
- Detective's hunch
- 0.5 points
- Similar to above, not at the start of the match, but very quickly you can call these things out to your teammates
- Empathic connection
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on your teammates
- Empathy
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on your teammates
- Eyes of belmont
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out, and i'd argue extending the duration of auras isn't useful in this context because you basically have "aura" of everything anyway.
- Fogwise
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out
- Hardened
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out, but does still suppress screams
- Inner focus
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out and scratch marks on teammates which is about finding your friends which is easy on coms
- Invocation: Treacherous Crows
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on killer and to your team
- Invocation: Weaving Spiders
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading to your team of where you are
- Kindred
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading of killer and teammates
- Lucky Star
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on teammates and generators nearby, but still does other stuff as well
- No one left behind
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading of other survivors
- Object of Obsession
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading of the killer, also i'd argue coms make OOO a significantly better perk because you can call out killer location to your team
- Open handed
- 1 point
- All about buffing aura reading
- Poised
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out
- Premonition
- 1 point
- Gives killer location which is easy to call out
- Quick gambit
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading of teammates but still gives a faster gen speed
- Rookie spirit
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura of regressing gens which is easy to call out to your team, but its not all the time so only half a point here
- Scene Partner
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer which is easy to call out
- Small game
- 0.5 points
- Similar to detective's hunch
- Spine chill
- 0.5 points
- Gives location of killer, but doesn't give action speed bonus
- Still sight
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer and other stuff that is easy to call out
- Strength in shadows
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on killer that is easy to call out
- Troubleshooter
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on the killer and of gens with progress which is super easy to call out
- Visionary
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on gens which is easy to call out
- Wake up
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on gates which is easy to call out as well as aura on teammates
- Wicked
- 0.5 points
- Gives aura reading on killer which is easy to call out
- Windows of opportunity
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on where pallets are up which is easy to call out
- Wire tap
- 1 point
- Gives aura reading on killer which is easy to call out.
So, if we add up all the whole pointers you get 19 points and if you add up all the fraction pointers you get 12.25. Which together is 31.25. There are 4 survivors, so i guess today its actually 125, so its doubled since the last time i did it.
Even if you want to exclude the fraction pointers, its still going to be 76 perks for free.
That's not to mention all of the coordination you can get that aren't in perk form, like coordinating who is going for pinhead's box, or coordinating a pallet or flashlight save right as the killer picks up a teammate, or calling in for a body block or various other things as well.
- Aftercare
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@cheapslurpiee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913117#Comment_3913117
Please list all 63.
I got a few minutes, would be good for my copy/paste i have of a bunch of data. Give me a few.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913111#Comment_3913111
You still have yet to give a reason why you think killers should win these outcomes, but not survivors. Also you're going to have to link comp games where this takes place because in the comp matches I've watching (which is little,) the survivors will still picking relative strong/cohesive perk setups even if they couldn't take the meta.
Killers are still winning in high-mmr and even the kill-rate in this MMR is healthy to my knowledge, just like I told the other poster, expecting BHVR to take the extremely complex balancing route to change high-level without overdoing it and without affecting the low level is wishful thinking, you've proposed your ideas in past discussions but I still maintain my disagreement with their implementation.
I feel like its far more practical for them to cut their losses and approach game balance practically, which is what they have been doing to my knowledge.
I'm not saying killers should just "win" these outcomes, i'm saying they should stand a chance. Killers only win at high mmr because they play nurse, or because they engage in stacking 4 slowdown perks and/or unfun playstyles that are not fun for the survivors to play against.
Unfun playstyles btw, that i don't think should exist. I don't think it should be expected that you just hard tunnel out the non-obsession (less likely to have DS) because the game is balanced around this unfun strategy.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913099#Comment_3913099
And what, precisely, do you propose to do about it that wouldn't massively screw up the balance of the game?
Because this is Clown we are talking about here. A weak Killer, and a weak Killer on a bad map with bad perks against good players with good perks on a good map.
Lets start with this.
Do you agree that its a problem? Lets not focus on the solution atm. Do you agree at least, that it is a problem?
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@Blueberry said:
You mean using an outside resource the game isn't balanced around? For the amount of perks you basically get for free by having coms it's no different than the survivors loading in with like 12 perk slots each. For lots of people playing a match against survivors with 12 perk slots each instead of the intended 4 doesn't sound fun or fair so it's understandable.
I counted once, its 63 perks they get for free. Plus many other things that aren't perks. To be fair this was like, 2 years ago, so its probably more now.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913095#Comment_3913095
If you're referring to comp, I don't know what the dev vision is regarding competitive DBD so I can't comment on it, but there are plenty of rules that creative killer diversity, artificial or otherwise.
Referring to highest queue-able MMR, again, its not really different than being unable to use any of the multitudes of trash perks and playstyles on the survivor side, if survivors were win-streaking perkless I'd be more sympathetic, but they're not even win-streaking with off-meta builds.
And you'd still have to gather stats that show non-meta killers are loss-streaking in the cited MMR levels, if they're not, what's the problem?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913097#Comment_3913097
The unsatisfying answer is that if a killer DC's, the entire match ends. Its an asymmetrical game at the end of the day. We are already getting go-next prevention soon-ish, so I'll reserve my thoughts on the topic for that point in time because it will most likely change a lot. I will say that adding killer bots would give them leeway to let killer's leave more often, but it'd be a lot of work and I'd imagine they'd rather just put a stop to chronic hookcide instead.
Time efficiency is survivor biased if they are a SWF and if said SWF is competitive, how often is this the case? If games against competitive SWFs can be won and are rare, is there truly an issue? If the problem is that killers are losing these games despite playing 'perfectly,' one side has to lose the immovable object vs unstoppable force situation, why should it be the survivors?
I also don't agree with the idea that you should be able to play an off-meta killer with an off-meta build and win consistently against comp-swfs running meta, as well as the fact that survivors who are inefficient with crappy builds shouldn't be able to consistently win against comp Blights/Nurses (which they don't.) The only exception to this being a massive skill-gap.
As annoying as Eruption was, survivors still had strong tools to use too and it would've been a lot better (imo) if BHVR added ways to communicate things like gen-perks or chases instead of just gutting Eruption, so I'm not opposed to preserving the strength of something frustrating by indirectly nerfing it with QoL that alleviates said frustration. A perfectly example would be adding basekit weaker corrupt without nerfing gen speeds again.
Regarding your last point, BHVR can put in said changes, but is it worth it the cost/effort? Nothing I've seen is convincing enough for me to believe killers are truly fighting tooth and nail in high-level MMR, all I've seen is evidence that high-mmr is the only place where they have to play against opponents of equal or greater skill instead, which like I said in my first response, should be expected if you're playing at that level.
It has nothing to do with comp.
If we had a pretend competition, where we took the highest MMR player on each killer, and pit them against the 4 highest MMR survivors in the game, the outcome would be that MAYBE nurse gets a 50% win rate.
And in regards to "perks" and "meme builds". In comp there is a REASON that survivor perks are HEAVILY restricted such that they CAN'T bring all the best perks. And look at what happens in comp? They still win.
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/442876/new-rarity-colors-accessibility-concerns
Hey! I want to make sure I best reflect your experience when sharing this feedback - would you be able to confirm which tiers you're unable to tell a difference between?
Really just make it a toggle thing. Make it default to the new one you put out for newer players who might be used to other games. But in the menu let the rest of us change it back to what it is now.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913077#Comment_3913077
I do not think it is a rare game.
However, I do not think there is anything wrong with that, aside from the stress factor, which is something built into the game.
Despite literally everything going wrong and all of it stacked against him, he still won the game as Clown. That isn't similar to Old BT at all. If you got farmed without old BT, that was it. You were done and you had no recourse, that's one reason DS was so popular because it was a defense against dumb teammates.
If you get dealt the worst hand possible as Killer, you can still win. It might not be easy, or "fun", but to say it isn't possible isn't accurate.
Let me put it this way. Remember the games where a bubba would just facecamp a survivor to death? And how the game was really unfun for that survivor on the hook? Like, sure the other survivors would probably win the game right? Cuz they could just finish the gens, and get out probably before they could actually get a kill.
Remember how awful that was though to experience? And even though the survivors still would "win" it still was really unfun, and so the devs did what they did, and they added the AFC feature.
That is the kind of feeling i'm talking about when playing killer in games like this that should be fixed as well.
The other aspect your missing on the "fun" factor here is. Do you think this game that this clown player played and didn't have fun was also fun for the survivors? I really doubt it, i'd bet that most of the players in that game, did not have fun.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913087#Comment_3913087
I don't think that's exclusive to killer-side though, to the point where I don't see why additional balancing is needed (especially not another survivor nerf.) Killers just feel it more often than survivors because hitting high MMR is way easier on killer, and that's the price you pay for SBMM.
In a good MMR system, every game should be a struggle and should be tiring. You should not expect to just chain matches back to back in high MMR without breaking a sweat or it's not functioning as intended. The emotional response to playing a hard match is understandable, but I disagree that BHVR should change the game to accommodate it.
Playing at a high-level will always include sacrificing fun for efficiency which I believe is Pulsar's point. Looking at the survivor builds of the match, everything there is the equivalent to running four slowdowns. Just like killer, I'd wager > 60% of survivor perks are a throw.
The reason why there's such push-back against killers getting basekit buffs (even though I'd be fine with basekit corrupt) is because killer is the power role and is already dominant at all levels of play until it tapers off into 'sometimes you might have a really hard game but still win most of your matches' territory in high-mmr as low-above average MMR is a slaughterfest.
But its precisely the point that at the highest levels of play only nurse and MAYBE blight is actually consistently viable.
If you took the best killer player in the world for each killer, and pit them against the best survivor team in the world and played 10 matches. How many of those killers do you think would actually get a 50% win rate? Assuming we removed RNG by just having them all play on the same map that is statistically a 50% winrate for example?
Probably only the nurse would do that.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913077#Comment_3913077
I do not think it is a rare game.
However, I do not think there is anything wrong with that, aside from the stress factor, which is something built into the game.
Despite literally everything going wrong and all of it stacked against him, he still won the game as Clown. That isn't similar to Old BT at all. If you got farmed without old BT, that was it. You were done and you had no recourse, that's one reason DS was so popular because it was a defense against dumb teammates.
If you get dealt the worst hand possible as Killer, you can still win. It might not be easy, or "fun", but to say it isn't possible isn't accurate.
You are missing the point though, he didn't really "win". It was completely thrown because the survivors were overly altruistic.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3913065#Comment_3913065
Putting aside the streamer's personality/complaints/etc, the main thing I took away was how fast the gens got done, and how his comeback was entirely caused by overzealous plays on the survivor side. He was even content with a 2k when the snowball started. Balance discussions aside, I absolutely get the frustration aspect of what he's saying, especially knowing that a more meta perk selection (or killer) would have given him a better chance at a more meaningful match (win or lose.) His game sense was not poor, he was doing things like recognizing when gens would pop and was making decisions like hooking the one survivor when he knew the others were down and healing across the map, so I don't think his macro play is especially poor (aside from the limitations of clown and his perks ofc.)
Regarding the basekit combacks/protections, regardless of which one each of us thinks applies, I think the bigger point he was making is that there are a lot of issues on the killer side that are on the same level as BT was before it became basekit: Gen perks feel that necessary because of the speed of matches like this, and it feels as necessary at higher level as BT felt before it got made basekit. Thats part of the issue with the pandora's box that got opened with basekit mechanics/buffs like that and the timer ones: It validates a lot of whataboutism, and makes issues feel particularly ignored when not addressed in a similarly impactful way.
I couldn't even finish the video, but I made sure to watch the entire match to get why he felt the need to make the video, and his frustration is valid. He could absolutely let it not get to him, but I can't imagine this kind of game being rare when you main clown for that many hours, especially if you're willing to divert from his meta.
Thank you for summarizing it, this is generally pretty spot on. The main takeaway being that like, killers today feel like survivors used to before things like BT were basekit. And what did that lead to? Survivors getting BT basekit.
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@Pulsar said:
Is this mf Arinad? Author of the billion-page Clown guide?
Also, what is your point? Not every Killer should be balanced to compete with the .01% of Survivors. Survivors have no base-kit comeback mechanics, they have base-kit protections. Call it what it is.
Some of us enjoy playing against difficult opponents and learning. Coming back better next time.
Posted 10 minutes after, so you didn't watch the video to see what my point is then?
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3912914#Comment_3912914
Artist is a bottom tier killer? I mean she's kinda boring but in good hands she's an A tier killer.
But yeah, the rest is pretty accurate. No exaggeration, I think I've faced Twins 2-3 times in the last year. And I don't feel like BHVR is highly motivated to spend resources on them. They're a dead killer.
On a broader note, I think SM's overhaul might signal the end for trap type killers. People don't hate on Trapper because he's so weak, but Hag and SM are the least picked and most generally disliked killers. I'd be surprised if we see any new trap killers in the foreseeable future.
I feel like outside of a dedicated few (very few), the broader community just doesn't have patience or care for macro/strategic gameplay. Though not a trap killer per se, I think it's just a matter of time before we see Singularity drop down toward the bottom as well, despite being quite strong.
They are disliked because they are bad. The devs keep nerfing the trap killers into a state of uselessness. The only reason trapper isn't further down is probably because newer players tend to play because, they are newer players and he's basically the face of DBD.
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@darky3 said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/5ZNM6WX7150U/killers-ranked-by-their-pick-rates.png
I made this list based on NightLight’s data. Not surprised to see The Ghoul at #1, but was a bit shocked to see these 5 being the least played:
- Demogorgon – 1.17%
- Artist – 1.09%
- Hag – 0.88%
- Skull Merchant – 0.85%
- Twins – 0.74%
What do y’all think of this?
- Demo is a bottom tier killer
- Artist is also bottom tier and her gameplay is boring (just leave the loop)
- Hag has always been super low and she is trash tier now that survivors can just remove her traps without a flashlight
- Skull merchant was intentionally nerfed to get people to stop playing her (success i guess) and is also why i have refused to spend any money on the game until they fix that.
- Twins has always been one of the lowest played killers.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3912215#Comment_3912215
Disturbed Ward main
Dead Dawg main
Gideon holes
these are top 3 spots on maps where you can easily make an infinite as survivor using BL bug
Probably also haddonfield but i haven't tested it. It definitely creates a true infinite in dead dawg main though. I tested that and its super broken.