Reinami
Reinami
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- Reinami
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@binky_dinky said:
Something I've noticed about The Animatronic that I've found extremely frustrating is that he can still lodge his axe in survivors who have just been unhooked and have the endurance status effect. This enables him to immediately grab said survivor and put them right back on the hook, sometimes before their endurance has even run out. To me this is insanley broken and frustrating because it completely negates the point of the off-hook endurance to begin with. I always thought the point of this status effect was to reduce tunneling, but because Springtrap can still lodge an axe in you he can immediately tunnel survivors off-hook.
How is this any different than say, huntress, who throws a hatchet and then hits you?
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@Peruki said:
In the vibrant and terrifying world of Dead by Daylight, where ingenuity and survival are key, we often encounter a fundamental paradox: while in terms of gameplay all survivors are essentially identical in their base abilities and performance, their inventories of items and add-ons remain painfully separate. Beyond their appearance (their "skin"), the experience of playing with Dwight, Meg, Claudette, or Jake is, from a mechanical perspective, the same. This reality sharply contrasts with the burden of managing individual resources for each character, creating unnecessary friction that discourages player diversity and freedom of choice.
Gameplay Homogeneity and Role Diversity
It's crucial to understand that a survivor's true identity and differentiation in Dead by Daylight don't lie in their hidden attributes (because there are none), but in the perks they equip, the items they carry, and the add-ons they use. A "healer" is such because of the med-kit and healing perks they bring, not because they are Claudette. A "repairer" depends on their toolbox and repair perks, not on being Dwight. This distinction is vital: the role is defined by the loadout, not by the base character.
Given that all survivors operate under the same base stats (movement speed, repair speed, etc.), character choice is purely aesthetic. We want to play with Jane because we like her design or personality, or with Ace for his charisma. However, this aesthetic preference often clashes with the harsh reality of an empty inventory for our favorite character, forcing us to "grind" Bloodpoints to obtain the desired items for that specific survivor.
Arguments in Favor of Inventory Merging
- Player Freedom and Flexibility of Choice:
- Play as anyone, anytime: Unifying the inventory would allow players to select their favorite survivor in each match without worrying about item availability. Do you feel like playing Élodie but know Dwight has more flashlights? With a shared inventory, the flashlight would be available to anyone.
- Encourages aesthetic diversity: Players would be more inclined to try different skins and characters if they knew they weren't limited by a lack of resources. This would visually enrich the game and allow players to express themselves more freely.
- Time Optimization and Reduced Grinding:
- Less unnecessary grinding: The need to accumulate Bloodpoints for each survivor individually solely for the purpose of having items would be drastically reduced. Grinding would focus on leveling up characters to obtain perks (which is already a significant grind), not on restocking inventories.
- Greater resource efficiency: Items and add-ons obtained from the Bloodweb wouldn't be "wasted" on a character you don't typically play. Everything acquired would be universally useful.
- Improved Gameplay Experience and Logical Consistency:
- Smoother flow between matches: Currently, a player might feel the frustration of wanting to use a specific item but finding it's only on a character they don't want to play at that moment, or their favorite character doesn't have the item they need. A common inventory would eliminate this obstacle.
- Greater consistency: If the only difference between survivors is visual, why aren't their consumable resources? A unified inventory would better align game mechanics with the actual gameplay experience.
- Minimal Impact on Game Balance:
- Does not affect the meta: Items and add-ons would still have the same effects and rarities. The difficulty or dynamics of matches wouldn't change, only the ease with which players can access those items with their chosen character. This is a quality-of-life improvement, not a balance re-adjustment.
- Preserves perk progression: The Bloodweb system and Bloodpoint grinding would remain relevant for perk progression, ensuring the game maintains a sense of long-term progression.
Implementation and Considerations
The transition could involve the automatic merging of all existing items and add-ons into a centralized inventory for the survivor role. From that point on, any item obtained from the Bloodweb or via codes would go directly into this common inventory.
In a game that values personal expression through cosmetics and has already simplified other progression systems, merging survivor inventories is the next logical step. It would allow the Dead by Daylight community to fully enjoy the diversity of characters without the punitive burden of excessive and redundant grinding, significantly improving player quality of life and allowing them to focus on what truly matters: the thrill of the chase and the tension of survival.
I agree, but also offerings on killer side should be merged as well. Addons being separate makes sense and is fine.
- Player Freedom and Flexibility of Choice:
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@Semper_Fi said:
I just played an entire weekend of DBD using reshade to test the differences… HUGE advantages!!! Playing as survivor, you can judge killers’ distance much clearer and better, looping was a huge advantage as you can see the dark spots of tiles way easier, tiles with walls/fences you're able to see the killers’ stain and loop accordingly. You wont get stuck on small things in the environment (no more toe stubbing), pathing in general becomes so much easier. If you have basic game sense, good map iq, decent camera movement, reshade will make a very big difference in your gameplay. After playing both, I conclude that the advantages of reshade is unfair 100% without a doubt. Playing as killer is completely better as you can spot survivors much easier, you can see from distances that you’d never be able to see without reshade. It makes good players very good players. To say the least.
with 9.0.0 we will have in game Gamma settings introduced, this is a start. Everyone should be on equal playing field. The only visual adjustments that should be allowed are what the game itself has to offer. I hope within the next 2 years (since bhvr takes their sweet time) we get reshade bannable.
it feels totally unfair to play against others who dont have it. 100% advantageous its not even debatable.
try to test it for yourself… load in on midwitch, the swamp, or even borgo… you’ll play much better with reshade. It is totally unfair. I dont know why this hasn't been looked into on a higher level. People who use it make excuses that it doesnt improve gameplay but simply makes the colors more vibrant and easier to watch during streams. The truth is, its a huge advantage. Thoughts, comments, complaints, anybody? ThanksCongrats, you discovered that cheating is cheating.
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@TragicSolitude said:
You use the word "invalidate" in your title, so I can only assume you're trying to bring BHVR's attention to this so it's removed from the game. That's gonna suck if/when survivors lose our counter to Lootbag.
Obviously its not intended. Come on now. You shouldn't be able to completely invalidate an entire part of the killer by pressing a single button that has no cooldown and isn't intentded to have this kind of gameplay impact.
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@TimberGoingDown said:
I have no idea how they'll actually do it.
How I hope they'll do it? Just make it impossible to die before the fifth or sixth hook of the game. They can be chased and downed, but if you put them on the hook, they just go back into struggle phase with an unlimited timer (and don't contribute to the hook count.) To keep players from getting griefed, let them unhook themselves after 30-60 seconds or something.
Currently, if you die on third hook… yeah you were tunneled. If you die on fourth hook, you can still probably call that tunneling. An argument can be made for fifth hook with ping-pong tunneling, though I personally disagree. But if you get killed on sixth hook, you weren't tunneled. You've had a chance to do some gens and get some heals in. If you die on sixth hook, that means that each survivor was hooked once, or three survivors were hooked, with two of them hooked twice. That's not tunneling, even if you were chased off of hook.
I think that giving survivors invulnerability or basekit DS or whatever is just going to create more problems than it solves. My way makes sure that all survivors actually get a chance to play the game without disrupting the mid- or end-game too much.
This is a suggestion i have had for a while. Make the survivors share the 1st hook state, then you get your own 2nd and 3rd hook state.
This means that if you have 4 survivors and you hook the same 1 3 times, you just burned through 3 of the teams shared hook states. And the earliest you can kill a survivor is on the 6th hook.
This means that if you want to tunnel someone out, you need to hit them at least 7 times. And just walking in a straight line and hooking a survivor, is going to take like 40 seconds. So 40 seconds * 6 times = 240 seconds, plenty of time for 2 survivors to finish 5 gens and open the gates.
It also weakens stuff like grim and pain resonance because you aren't going to want to hook the same guy 6 times and only get the effect once early, forcing you to spread your pressure.
This also helps with camping, because you would need to burn through 6 hook states before you can kill a survivor on hook.
It also isn't making survivors share ALL the hook states. So if you are good, you don't feel bad for instantly getting hooked and dying because your team burned through all the hook states before your first chase. You are always given at least 2 chances.
Of course as part of this, they need to address other things on the killer side to make sure that things are more balanced around having 4 survivors in the game for 6 hooks, such as basekit corrupt, maybe basekit corrupt on totems for a short time. Basekit better gen defense etc.
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@UnicornMedal said:
Personally? I don't think people should be punished for AFKing or going next. It's about as punishable as Killers that want to farm or any player that wants to meme. It's just part of the game. This system is too one-sided and it's micromanaging gameplay to the point that it's actually not even worth playing at all.
I'd rather see something like the scaling difficulty from 2v8 be worked on as a basekit comeback for both sides. Things that move the trial forward as opposed to adding more stress to players.
If that is the case then there shouldn't be a DC penalty at all, and when they have killswitched the DC penalty games are a disaster, because everyone just immediately DCs as soon as anything bad happens and not a single game actually goes to completion.
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@MrQuiet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3946961#Comment_3946961
Ptb to live. 20% haste down ro 12.
Not only that, but the haste effects everyone, so it literally does nothing. In fact, it buffs survivors since they vault faster too.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3946769#Comment_3946769
Yep, maps are really problematic when they don't provide enough resources.
Ideal map design is, in my opinion, original Chapel. No map was as balanced as that one was.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3946778#Comment_3946778
I don't think so, tbh.
In DBD you can't even see your own MMR. The system is widely disliked, it was never requested in the first place, and many players don't care about it. The so-called "comp" scene is external, filled with restrictions that regular games do not have, and don't reflect a normal DBD match.
My point is that. The devs obviously care that people are "matched" accordingly based on skill. That by definition means that the game is competitive. DBD is not a party game.
Let me ask you this.
Do you think Mario Party, or Mario Kart match players together with a hidden MMR? Or do you think that they just throw together the first few people with decent ping together?
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3946557#Comment_3946557
I agree, my friend, and I think the last point is particularly severe because it damages the whole DBD experience by trying to turn the game into something that it isn't.
DBD isn't competitive, it never was, never will be. So it shouldn't be approached like one.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3946581#Comment_3946581
To be fair, my friend, most of these games are competitive games, unlike DBD.
I think the game didn't really punish the "go next" thing because it wasn't really a problem, until recently when it became an epidemic.
DBD is by definition a competitive game, because it uses MMR for matchmaking.
And the point is that these games aren't necessarily compettive. They are TEAMBASED games. Hell the sports games will punish people for leaving early. Every multiplayer game does this. But DBD does not. I'd bet mario kart probably does this if you leave games.
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@GeneralV said:
Greetings, friends of the Fog! I hope this discussion finds you doing well.
By now most of us have already seen that the Go Next Prevention mechanic was killswitched after the disaster that it caused when players got punished even if they did nothing wrong.
But I think that raises the question as to why such mechanic was added in the first place. And the answer may be obvious at first: the "Go Next" epidemic and the sheer amount of games where players decide to suicide on hook.
The answer is correct, sure, but I would like to propose a deeper discussion:
What was the origin of the "Go Next" epidemic? Why did such thing ever existed in the first place, and how did it reach a level so severe that changes were made to fundamental aspects of the game?
And if I were to share my own answer, I would say it was caused by a gradual deterioration of the survivor role. Because let's think for a second about the year I started playing DBD: 2018. Back then the game simply didn't have DC penalties, one could DC as much as they wanted to, with the only punishment being rank-related (the loss of a pip, if memory serves me right). And yet, people didn't disconnect like crazy every single game.
It happened sometimes, of course, especially with OG Legion, but I wouldn't call it an epidemic of its own.
However, back then there was more to the survivor role than there currently is. They still had proper resources, they didn't have to worry about waves and waves of gen-related killer perks, stealth was still a viable playstyle, killers weren't as oppressive, and the list goes on.
But we all know that changed in more recent times. Survivors lost most of what they had available to them, and nothing was really given. They die more often, their objectives are harder to do (due to perks), and generally speaking they have a worse experience. It is a lack of everything, and it seems to me that was the primary reason for the massive increase of hook suicides.
Let me know what you think, please share your thoughts, any feedback is welcome!
Why do you think the "Go Next" epidemic existed?
Its simple, up until now, this was one of the only multiplayer games that just didn't punish it. Look at any other team-based multiplayer game:
- Counter strike
- Rainbow Six Siege
- Valorant
- Overwatch
- Team Fortress
- League of Legends
- DotA 2
- Smite
- Heroes of the STorm
- Starcraft
- Warcraft
- WoW
- Final fantasy 14
- Rocket League
- World of Tanks/Warplanes/Ships
- PUBG
- Fortnite
You get the idea. Every single one of these would punish you for griefing your team, or "feeding" or otherwise giving up. At least when not playing on their casual modes (like CS Deathmatch for example).
DBD is one of the only games i have played that allows it (at least up until now)
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@AlreadyTracer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3946561#Comment_3946561
But not like any perk in the game. 99% of perks amount to what is basically free value. And even if you don't get value, there's no DOWNSIDE that big.
Most perks in the game work best if you use them at the best times. Using them at the worst times can be detrimental. There is almost no perk that isn't like this outside of maybe some of the "you do X action faster". But even then, arguably you are paying for the opportunity cost of taking a different perk.
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@AlreadyTracer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3946544#Comment_3946544
Mathematically analyzing games is almost always useless, as it was with SC. It was and is a waste of time to consistently heal at all. Nothing was ever efficient about self care because the action of healing itself was never efficient to begin with.
If you were able to correctly identify the times healing was needed and use SC then, you were rewarded for the good play. If you weren't, you were punished with half a gen of progress lost. That's a very good risk:reward ratio, my guy.
Sure, you had to use it carefully obviously, just like literally every other perk in the game, but the point was that it gave you an equal efficiency self heal, as many times as you want, whenever you want.
You also need to keep in mind regional differences. In Asia and South America, it was a perk that was taken by all the survivors 100% of the time. In those regions the meta was to play more hide and seek rather than chase, thus it was an extremely powerful perk in those regions.
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@AlreadyTracer said:
Like yes, BK got buffed, but...just halve the effect on self healing or smth. Self Care wasn't a good perk before because it was inefficient and now it's just useless without BK and Resilience.
It was mathematically too efficient.
Back when it let you heal yourself at half speed but as much as you want. A single heal would take 32 seconds. But, normally you need another survivor to heal you, (or you use a medkit which was limited in the number of uses).
Limited uses is a given, it was limited by the number of uses. Another survivor can heal you, but how long does that take? 16 seconds. But its 2 survivors, so its 32 seconds of survivor time spent healing. With self care, that meant that you could heal yourself with the same efficiency as another survivor without needing to actually FIND another survivor and could go somewhere where it was super low risk. And you could do it an unlimited number of times.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945398#Comment_3945398
Once the last guy goes down they can both abandon.
Yes, but if the last guy is hiding you have to sit there for 4 minutes.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3946365#Comment_3946365
He moves close to full speed with it out, is completely invisible after coming out of a door and has Undetectable for twenty seconds.
He sneaks up on you, throws the Axe, gets faster, and then grabs you. It'd be like if Legion could tag you with his power and then move at 115% in his Fatigue animation, then grab you.
The grab is shorter range than the lunge first of all. So its not really anything special.
Secondly, it doesn't make him any better at tunneling than nearly any other killer that has a teleport.
Lastly, the axe is basically a worse huntress hatched with that addon that makes huntress move at 115 when she has no hatchets.
Most of the problems with the teleport are bugs around the sound and the invisibility issue.
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You guys seem to really think that because someone queued up for the "killer" role that you just assume the worst of them. People are intentionally doing this to cause people to get penalties? That is some serial killer level mindset right there.
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@AetherBytes said:
It might not be a bug; Survivor bots usually run basically the moment you start teleporting to them now. It's possible that is a tell.
Survivor bots are effectively hacking, they know where the killer is at all times. Its impossible for example to mindgame them at any structure, you have to exploit the AI to do something dumb.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945457#Comment_3945457
No one would use map offerings to just ban one single map. If they introduced something like that they would need to allow banning 3-4 maps with one offering.
It already would since map offerings are usually to a realm. So you would be banning multiple maps already.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945476#Comment_3945476
I know it is a bug, but he is still very unpleasant to play against, especially with the invisible bug
But saying stuff like "killer OP please nerf" and mentioning an obvious bug is ridiculous.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945336#Comment_3945336
His footsteps/sounds come from the wrong direction and he is invisible after exiting the doors for like two seconds. How am I supposed to know where he is? Also the doors are so close to gens that you don‘t make it anywhere before he hits you. At least with other killers you get the chance to disable their teleport, the killer is slowed down afterwards or you at least hear a teleport sound before the are in front of you and hit you. Springtrap doesn’t have any of the limitations of other killers and gets constantly free hits because you have no time to react to him coming out of the doors.
The sound issues are a bug that will be fixed. Its not intentional.
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@Hexbadboy23 said:
Survivors how are you feelings with map offerings being gutted now that you can’t choose Macmillan and Erie Of crows much anymore lol.
Scratch mirror myers mains how are you feeling?? No more Hawkins Lerys or Midwich??
This message is for everyone.
They should have swapped them around and made them a map ban. You use the thing to make sure that you don't get that map.
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@Pit_Bull_Love said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945381#Comment_3945381
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945384#Comment_3945384
The 3rd guy (other 2 are dead or slugged as well) has to wait 4 minutes or until the 4th guy is caught. Why can't the slug just abandon match. The killer can still look for the 4th guy while person 3 can move on.
I think in this case it should only be when the last 2 survivors are left. You already can DC if all get slugged, you shouldn't move that to when 3 get slugged, because thats starting to push the line a bit too much i think.
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@KerJuice said:
I’m confused; I thought this is already a scenario. Please elaborate.
So, if there are 2 survivors left. And you are being chased, then you get downed, then instead of picking you up and hooking you, the killer wants to go for the 4k, but the last survivor is hiding it out. In that scenario as the downed survivor, you should be able to abandon.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3945356#Comment_3945356
I've seen multiple reports of people getting the dc penalty from being hard tunneled out first. So no, I don't think it's entirely a "go next" problem.
I have been hard tunneled out already today, and again, no issues.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
They released a killer only chapter that's breaking records, so obviously popular, while simultaneously pushing out a system that punishes survivors with dc penalties for basically existing.
At least some of the people who do want to play survivor are being forced to wait out false positives dc penalties for a grossly overtuned system, while others are just going to stop playing for a while to mitigate the collateral damage until BHVR fixes it.
Both of these issues lead to longer killer queues.
I have been playing survivor all day and not had a single problem honestly. I'm assuming people upset about it are ones who like to "go next" often and are mad they can't anymore.
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@Inosennatoki said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IXBQHDIKN8EW/1000010342.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PMHPHNBMI0HU/1000010344.jpg
Springtrap's add-on is more useful to survivors than himself.
Because survivors still have 20% faster vault from the celebrate poster.
Should the vault speed from the add-on be reduced to 12% too?
Yeah its pretty bad now. Its a shame, they had a neat idea here of making it so you have go after multiple different targets and actually created an interesting unique playstyle. All they had to do was tweak the numbers but instead they just killed it.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3944252#Comment_3944252
We were at the Exposed status effect stage. He didn't get enough tokens but that rescue would have been number five. Perhaps it is you who needs to reread it 😅
You didn't state that in the OP. And you have no nothing, no screenshot, no video.
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i think you should reread what devour hope does
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3944051#Comment_3944051
forum ban speed run comment
Its obviously just a ragebait account that is gonna get deleted and thrown away anyway. But it is amusing that this person is raging this hard about something that we have been able to play with for like 2 hours.
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@SpringTrapHatchetOP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3944055#Comment_3944055
20 seconds isn't a "brief" time and the teleport is 100% silent. You must be a stringtrap player to be so ardently dick riding this new killer. You aren't fooling anyone. The killers you mentioned all have counterplay. Their is no way to counter this bs 20 second undetectable on teleport.
"I must be a springtrap player" Bro the killer has been out for like 2 hours, i have played 2 games with him.
You need to chill.
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@Sheffield said:
In every Match with the new Killer i or we have no Terro radius. This is Game braking.
I'm really angry because he can easily pull me off the Generator every round.😡
The new killer gets undetectable for a brief time after coming out of a door. I'm not sure how this is any different to you than any of the other killers that have undetectable. Are:
- Ghost Face
- Pig
- Wraith
- Demogorgon
- Skull Merchant
all OP to you as well?
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@KatsuhxP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3943821#Comment_3943821
I mean I only play since 2021 so it has to have everything. But I still don't believe I was 2k hours in queue and things, but then again it also doesn't count event-queues at all xD
Yeah its only counting regular 1v4 mode. You have to figure the average dbd match is probably 10 minutes. Steam starts counting as soon as you launch the game. if you spend 30-60 secondsi n queue, then naother 60 seconds in lobby, then loading screens, buying stuff in the bloodweb, it makes sense honestly.
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@KatsuhxP said:
I'm confused by my hours I have over 3k according to steam, but dbd says I have a little over 1k with killer and survivor together in matches, I don't believe I was 2k hours afk or waiting xD
Also I'm pretty much the average bhvr wanted I have just over 60% killrate with 61,39%, my top 5 killer that are huntress, blight, pig (lol), chucky and wesker have a killrate of 61,83% average xD
Oh and my top-perk is bbq with 62,09% pickrate and 61,63% killrate xDD
It only has data back from september 1, 2020? so anything before that isn't included.
Also i think for times it is specifically counting time in the match. Steam counts time in queue, and waiting in lobby, or doing other stuff.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
Is anyone surprised by their official stats?
https://stats.deadbydaylight.com/
Maybe your escape rate is more or less than you expected? Maybe your kill rate is higher or lower than you expected?
Given that i exclusively play solo queue as survivor i expected by escape rate to be lower, but its almost 46% right now (for my main). Which is pretty surprising.
My escape rate as mikaela being 8.33% is prety funny, althoughi only played 12 games with her.
Also my most played killer being nemesis is weird, but i do think i had a big farming session with him during the anniversary event when it was going on since i generally play the same killer a bunch when they release for at least 50+ games, and i remember that anniversary being particularly active and playing a bunch, and since i was leveling nemesis i just had (and still do have) infinite cakes.
And my lowest kill rate killer was Houndmaster at 64% which again feels weird, but i played her mostly at release where she had a ton of bugs, so i'm guessing i lost a lot more games than i realized with her.
My kill rates for my non-top tier killers are way higher than i expected. My average kill rate is around 80%.
Screenshots of the stats:
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@Choaron said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933485#Comment_3933485
No way devs would be this clueless about their own game (r-right?). It clearly was meant as a nerf to the killer.
Its definitely a side-grade in some ways. Being in a chase now means they can't re-vault a window over and over again and it will block the windows.
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@RJoyYourJoy19 said:
Leave it to the killer mains to try and unironically say that Nurse doesn't need nerfs LMAO
I feel like you are being willfully ignorant of what we are saying.
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@donewithdis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941048#Comment_3941048
Newest mechanic prevents those survivors from killing themselves on the hook getting out of crappy matches and if they try they get the disconnected status so there's your punishment as for the trick it's simple patrol gens and if you want constant 4k well id suggest learning to play nurse blight or ghoul,l. But you will get bad groups of survivors yes but there's more bad killers I've tried surviving. 5 out of 6 matches saw tunneling, slugged, or face camped. I can't remember the last bad group of survivors I had.
Anti-"go next" is going to HELP survivors not hurt them.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941222#Comment_3941222
Aside from that the person you are quoting managed to chase themselves around Shack for so long that they triggered the (very generous) AFC-feature… So, an average clueless player indeed.
@Topic:
She probably will never receive any meaningful Nerfs. Meaningful in a way that not every Tier LIst starts with "Strongest Killer is Nurse, you know why". I am also not really sure what exactly they should do to make Nurse a Killer who is still strong, but not the best Killer without question. She probably needs a full rework, since I think that you can only nerf her by making her the worst Killer in the game with her power.
Overall she needs to be more accessible for people who learn her, but also should not result in the player winning almost all of their games after learning her. Because she requires way less effort than other Killers who are weaker than her.
And this was already said - as long as Nurse exists like she does, the Devs can counter every "The game is pay2win"-argument by saying that the strongest Killer is free and comes with the Basegame. So players can complain about Ghoul or Dracula all they like, the strongest Killer is one where you dont have to invest a single Cent.
Also, another obvious reason why we will not see meaningful Nurse-Nerfs is simply the backlash. Killer players spam the Forum for every little Nerf or Survivor Buff, you will turn this into a hell-hole if you do a meaningful Nerf to Nurse.
I don't think they can nerf her because it could potentially cause the fabled snowball and be the slow death of the killer role and eventuallly the game.
Its an idea that has been floated by content creators, and i definitely think its a real possibility. Basically it works like this.
- Right now, the only thing keeping the top tier SWF teams in check, are God tier nurse players.
- Nurse gets nerfed so that she's more "in line" with other killers at the top level.
- Suddenly, those top tier teams aren't able to be stopped anymore by nurse, this causes them to win more nad more games.
- The queue times for these players get higher and higher and mmr gets more and more random, until eventually these players quit.
- What happens now? Well those top tier killer players are lower MMR and now getting matched with survivor players who aren't ready for them. So then what happens?
- Eventually those survivor players get tired of being stomped and start churning out the game, after all, these are the more casual players who aren't looking for a sweat fest.
- Then what happens. The queue times for those tope tier killer players get longer and longer, and MMR gets more sporadic, so they either quit, or they get matched with even LOWER level survivors that aren't able to handle them.
- And on and on the snowball goes, until there isn't anyone left but sweatlords playing the game.
Now that isn't something that is exclusive to the killer role. This could also happen in the reverse at the top level as well, i just think it would more impactful if lower tier survivors were forced to go against higher skill killers because of it, rather than the reverse.
Nor am i saying this would 100% for sure happen, but it is something that COULD happen.
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@ImWinston said:
- I give some context to my discussion. I've been playing since 2020 and I'm devotion 27 (I think 5k hours of play). It's really time to think about doing something about this killer who ignores ALL the rules of this game.
- Pattet? Windows? DS? Stuns? Long distance? Sprint burst? DH? Distance between first and second floor? It doesn't matter, she'll still manage to get around the rules and get right to you. She's even good at proxy camping/tunneling (even though she doesn't need it at all)
- And now I'm out of the "admiration" phase that many are in... it's true that she's a difficult killer to master, but once you understand her mechanics, with the right perks and addon, the game is over for survivors. it all comes down to "will she get her blink wrong this time?" At this point why nerf Kaneki and leave her as she is?
- why can you disarm the Trapper's traps, but she has no mechanics to somehow limit her power? before you could at least burn her with the flashlight (which is difficult anyway), now even that doesn't exist anymore
- A strong and challenging killer (both for mastering and from the survivor's point of view) is all well and good... but she's really something beyond those concepts
I'm going to ask the same question i always ask in these threads.
Do you believe the game should be balanced around players who are average skilled, or the highest skilled players? Based on your answer, the following must be true:
- If you believe the game should be balanced around the highest skill players, then sure, i agree, lets rework and/or nerf the nurse because in the highest level player's hands, she is way out of line. However, if you do that, you MUST by definition also contend with the fact that nurse blight, and maybe spirit and ghoul (their nerfs hurt a bit) are actually viable at that level, and the vast vast majority of killers simply can't compete at that level. So survivors as a whole need massive massive nerfs, or killers need massive massive buffs.
- If you believe the game should be balanced around the average skill players, then you must contend with the fact that nurse is often one of the lowest, if not THE lowest kill rate killers in the game everytime BHVR releases stats. And therefore by definition, probably needs to be massively buffed and/or made significantly easier to play.
So which poison will you take?
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@jedimaster505 said:
I keep seeing the same argument from killer mains on here… "survivors are losing because the average survivor sucks".
Now I explain why this is blatantly false.
People who choose to play killer aren't magically better at the game than your average survivor. There are just as many mediocre killers as there are mediocre survivors, after controlling for the 1:4 ratio, obviously. Most players are average because they aren't professionals and shouldn't be expected to be professionals to have a rewarding gameplay experience. So if the escape rate is less than 50%, which it is by quite a large margin, this indicates that the game design itself favors killers, which it obviously does.
To turn around and then say the escape rate is low because most survivors are bad, completely ignores that most killers are just as bad, on average. But the OP game mechanics killers have at their disposal makes it far easier for mediocre killers to win against mediocre survivors. In other words, an intermediate survivor loses against an intermediate killer, most of the time. You need an expert survivor to consistently beat an intermediate killer in DBD. An expert killer will beat expert survivors most of the time, too. It is only a minority of elite survivors that can actually prosper against expert killers, and killers don't even face these teams very often because elite players are a tiny percentile of the player base. The balance differential is clearly evident in the absurdly long kill streaks that some killer mains have achieved, which is unheard of on survivor side, and unheard of in other popular PvP games that are sensibly balanced. The margin only gets smaller as you approach the very top of MMR, and even then, 4 man SWFs still escape less than killers.
So the complaints from survivors about the low cheese skill tactics used by killers, like tunneling, slugging, camping, etc, are perfectly valid. A game that doesn't reward skill expression for one side is poorly designed. In fact, neither side is rewarded for skill expression when the game is imbalanced, because even the killers are forced to win more by design, which renders their input as meaningless as it is for the losing side. For every 4K you get as killer, you know it could well have been a 2K or a 0K if BHVR hadn't given you an advantage from the outset. This removes the satisfaction of playing both killer and survivor.
The fundamental principle of game theory is that you have a balance of challenge and reward, which produces a flow state, and that is called "fun". But if survivors aren't rewarded for skillful input, because low skill cheese tactics are so effective, then the game ceases to be fun, and they rage quit (i.e. go next). This is not a skill issue on the players part, it is a critical game design issue whereby a large percentage of the player base doesn't even consider a match worth playing until the end, because the mechanics are inherently unfun. In fact I have never seen such a high percentage of quitters in any other popular PvP game, compared to DBD.
Likewise, if the killer is just handed one 3-4K after another on a silver platter, their input becomes meaningless, and the game becomes remarkably boring. At that point the only incentive for killers to continue playing is for the power trip fantasy, which is why so many killers hate that survivors are able to abandon. Many of them gain satisfaction that they are ruining the survivors gameplay experience, instead of being satisfied for playing killer role skillfully.
To make this concept clear, imagine a game where the outcome was determined at the very beginning. That is, the game told you at the beginning of the match, which survivors will escape and which ones will die. Obviously that would be a terrible game that few people would enjoy. Now obviously, this is an exaggeration. Dead by Daylight doesn't take it to that extreme. But it does do this to an extent, because the odds of survival are forcibly reduced through game design, instead of leaving it up to the players themselves, both killers and survivors, to determine the outcome.
If you're a really good killer main, you don't need BHVR to hold your hand to help you kill survivors. Your skill as killer will make you an intimidating presence all by itself. If the survivors aren't intimidated by you, then you're just not good at killer role. And if survivors don't consider the game worth playing, then the devs need to address their game design instead of blaming the survivors for "not working together".
I think you are misunderstanding the statement that "the average survivor sucks"
It is a true statement, and it is more about solo queue than anything else. If you queue in solo queue, there are 4 survivors, and 1 killer. That is 4 chances for one of those survivors to be bad at that game, whereas the killer only has 1 chance. All it takes for survivors, is for 1 person to be bad and for that to bring the whole team down. That is fundamentally how the game is designed. Imagine a world where we had a perfect bell curve of skill level for players. Even assuming MMR is doing its job, each player has about a 34% chance to be bad at the game. If the killer is bad, they lose. But if only 1 survivor is bad, it significantly increases the odds that the team will lose.
With a 34% chance of being bad, what are the odds a killer is bad? Well, 34%.
What about the survivors? Each one has a 34% chance of being bad, which would equate to a 71% chance that somebody on the team is bad
Now you see where the "average player is bad" makes such a difference in an asymmetrical game that is designed for one of the sides to work as a team.
What i generally prefer to look at, and it is true for any multiplayer game, is look at what the best of the best players in the world are doing. For some reason DBD players have this fascination with "we need to balance for the average player" which is just completley not how it is done for literally any other multiplayer game in existence. Sure, changes can be made that account for those players, and characters have been reworked in other games. For example, LoL reworked Xin Xhao because he was a noob stomper, but actually quite bad in high level play. But balance decisions should always be made with the top player in mind. Because the top players the ones who are able to exploit the imbalances in the game better than anyone, and they are able to help you, as a developer, find those imbalances.
Here is a video i post here frequently that i'm sure some of my hater will come in and insult me over. But i think it a solid video that explains my stance on balance perfectly. Its a solid video i suggest you give the whole thing a watch, but i timestamped the relevant section. They are talking about TF2 here, but the concept itself transfers over to any game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=204sNow, looking at the best players in the world. Lets take the top 4 survivors in the entire world, and pit them against the best killer player for each killer in the world and have them play 10 matches, on a hypothetical perfectly balanced map with no RNG. What do you think happens? I suspect that nearly every killer would get maybe 2 wins tops? With ones like wesker, ghoul, and spirit locking in maybe 3-4. And nurse and blight managing to cross that 5-6 mark.
That is a big problem. And i don't understand why people don't care.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3939862#Comment_3939862
It's not a 'surrender' button. It says 'abandon'. The killer is now enabled to decide to take their win and bloodpoints and go next if they don't feel like finishing off the bots. I'm not sure where there's a downside there. If they want the bp, they can finish off the bots. If they want to keep playing the match, they can.
Honestly, it's pretty wild how people are dividing up into 'killer' and 'survivor' sides on this issue. If all the survivors are in an open unblocked gate for some amount of time, the killer should be able to abandon. That doesn't take away any amount of gameplay from the killer or the survivors and prevents the killer having to deal with bm if they think they'll find the survivors teabagging.
There are also some people complaining that as killer, it's not satisfying to win a match if they don't get to finish off their human opponents in a game that's unwinnable for those opponents. There's no scenario where forcing an opponent to play an unwinnable game and waste their time is sportsmanlike. In the current scenario, when all survivors abandon, the killer still gets to have the remainder of their game if they want, and they now have an option to just go play another game faster. Those are only benefits.
BHVR released the outcomes, it is literally counted as a draw and not a win.
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@donewithdis said:
Ok really DBD you really are just trying to tank the game aren't you. You punish survivors because they get tunneled, face camped, and just made to play worthless terrible matches because killers have no true skill and have to do the listed above things then say "it's a tactic" then complain if survivors help each other. I'm a killer main who can get a 4k with most of the killers especially the newer ones and I'm no where near professional level.
How exactly does BHVR punish survivors who are facecamped when there is a literal mechanic in the game that prevents it. Or the fact that you get basekit BT, or the fact that survivors are stronger after being unhooked as evidenced by the slugging epidemic?
Also, if you are so good at killer you "don't need these tactics" lets see it then, i look forward to seeing your youtube video. Either the larger sum of the killer community is actually horrible at this game, and you have unlocked some technique that none of us have ever thought of, or….its something else.
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@Rapid99 said:
… while the "going next" epidemic is as common as it is. Like genuinely kill rates are such a flawed stat. 4 games in a row now (and the genuine hundreds I've had while playing dbd) where the survivors just instakill themselves on first hook.
Whether it be because they don't like the killer, they sucked at the first chase so they just give up immediately. It's insane. Yea unsurprisingly, those "instakills" count towards the killrate. Let alone the kills you get afterwards because they just left the other survivors in a 3v1 at 5 gens.
It's so common that it genuinely makes me not believe a single "kill rate" stat out there.
Edit: The amount of games in a row with "go nexters" has climbed from 4 to 7 after I wrote this… it's ridiculous dawg.
I have long suspected that kill rates are actually massively inflated because of the "go next" idea. BHVR SAYS they remove DCs, but they don't remove "go next" and also, i doubt they completely remove DCs from the equation either.
Basically though, all it takes is for someone to "go next" in a single game, and its basically a 4k at that point .
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@IamFran said:
Boons are a failed new feature, that's the reason why we don't get more I think.
The only good one was Circle of Healing and was nerfed to the ground. The rest are not bad per se but they're too situational to worth a perk slot.
They are either way too strong or useless. no in betwee.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935426#Comment_3935426
While this is all true, we need to consider that if killrates are a problem due to these changes the Devs can and will rebalance Killers struggling due to it around this, so everyone is back at 60% again. If it's true a Killer needs to slug, tunnel, camp, etc. for their kill rate and these changes nerf them too much, the Devs will fix it. There is good reason everyone got buffed and upgraded before these changes went to live or were even discussed.
But the point we are making is that is fine, they can claim they are going to do that. But at the glacier pace that the devs make changes to this game, we are gonna be waiting years for things to be put back into place.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935426#Comment_3935426
not a single "anti-some-survivor-playerstyle-we-dont-like" things.
What?
You got hook respawns. You got medkit nerfs. You got map offering changes. Talking about genrush, you got a free bonus ten seconds per gen, and now survivors will spawn clumped to make them take longer to split.
Killers don't get any perks the way survivors do because killers get it all rolled into basekit.
And yet its still not enough. Try watching a comp game where the killer is playing trapper.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3935332#Comment_3935332
I think you missed literally everything I wrote.
Also, you wrote 'so much basekit and perk protection', which isn't the same as 'basekit and so much perk protection'.
The point was proven during all the slugging debacle. When survivors get hooked, they get access to a ton of second chance things and become extremely strong. My point still stands. We are getting tons of "anti-some-killer-playerstyle-we-dont-like" mechanics in play and not a single "anti-some-survivor-playerstyle-we-dont-like" things.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3934258#Comment_3934258
You can't tunnel someone out easily because of so much basekit and perk based protection
You can't camp someone out because the game will let them unhook themselves
You can't regress the gens because you gave a limit of 8 regression events and survivors eventually win the long game.
You can't deal with it in the endgame because gates open too quickly, and never regress even if you push survivors off of them
This bit's kinda disingenuous.
First off, 'so much basekit' entails a singular change. Ten seconds of endurance off hook is the only thing that survivors got as basekit anti-tunnel. Labeling it 'so much' is disingenuous.
You can absolutely still camp, and anytime people point that out, everyone is quick to jump in with the boilerplate 'it's anti-FACEcamp' remark. Just because you can't park your behind in front of the hook and just pseudo-AFK anymore doesn't mean camping can't be done.
You can absolutely still regress gens, you just can't make your entire playstyle revolve around perma-regression anymore. As BHVR staff mentioned, the 8 regression limit was chosen because it was so far above the normal regression event count. The average was like 3-4, so the 8 barely ever gets touched on. In addition, saying 'you can't regress gens' when the top-most picked perk is still Pain Res, with Pop Goes the Weasel, Surge and Nowhere to Hide in close pursuit means you're just flat-out wrong.
It's also disingenuous to involve perks when it comes to anti-tunnel, which is entirely dependent on perks, but then disregard perks when it comes to endgame defense. Remember Me, No Way Out, NOED, Terminus, lots of perks that focus specifically on the end-game to the point where there's even a strat that revolves around making gates take so long to open that the EGC kills all the survivors for you. If you want to count perks when it comes to making tunnelling difficult, you have to also count perks that massively bolster the killer's endgame. You can't add them in on the survivor side, and then exclude them killer-side, that's not fair.
Survivors get many many many MANY second, third, fourth and even fifth chances through basekit mechanics, perks, and having teammates to help them. Killers never get any second chances, and when they do through things like, arguably, NOED, they get complaied about and nerfed.
NOED was completely unreasonable in its original form and the nerf it got still keeps it sufficiently powerful to be a legitimate tool and threat.
But the reason killers don't get 'second chances' is because the killer can win at any given moment in the game. You have a constant chain of endless chances to win. At every single second of a match, right up until the third survivor walks out the trial, you have a chance to win.
This does not go for survivors, at all.
And honestly, the most clear indicator of this is that with all of these alleged 'second chances' at winning? Survivors are still not winning nearly as much as killers are. Not even close.
I think you missed the "AND PERK PROTECTION" part of my statement there.
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@TheSingleQuentinMain said:
I main killer, but Wraith has never been a killer that appealed to me. He relies on hit and run, a tactic I don't like to on most killers. That said, I don't think anyone would mind fighting or using these buffs. This is a workshop though, so my goal is to get feedback on my ideas more than anything else. I'm aiming to add depth to killers just as much as buffing any of them.
Buff 1: Base kit Cloaked Action speed boost
He has addons that boost his Pallet Break/Gen Break/Vault speeds. Additionally, making it so his locker search speed is increased would be nice. Normally I'm against a "flat buff" to a given killer, such as just making them do stuff faster, but I think that if his cloaked stun duration remains, he should have at least a 20% base kit buff to those things
Buff 2: Vault Blocking Mode
While Cloaked, press Ctrl to to enter Vault Blocking mode. This deactivate the 20% buff to action speed that the first buff included. In exchange however, the next 3 locations you vault while Cloaked will become blocked for 20 seconds when you uncloak. The idea hear is he can set up a couple of vault locations to be blocked before chase ensues, or even to just shut down an area like a t-wall he can't deal with.
Buff 3: The Cloak Shimmer Buff
When Wraith decloaks or cloaks, all survivors within 40 meters here a "Whoosh" sound. As a buff, any survivor his in range to hear that sound has there hud icon lightly warp with a subtle, green glow behind it, allowing Wraith to know that there are survivors within that 40 meter range. I was thinking survivors could also see the seen on the survivors end so solo que players know, "okay it's nearby that teammate of mine, because he had the whoosh." but it might be an unnecessary buff to survivors against him.
Buff 4: The Braindead stat buffs
These are buffs that include minor but impactful stat changes, but not ones that really add nuance to the killer.
- 5% more speed while cloaked.
- 5% decloak speed buff
Honestly i think he just needs to not snarl so damn loud that he may as well have a terror radius while cloaked. And then making the swift hunt addons basekit and reworking them. He takes 3 seconds to unlock which means if he is touching a survivor's back he can't hit them while uncloaking out of it unless he has those addons. Just make his uncloak speed 2.5 seconds (which is halfway between not having them both and having them both) and i think that would make it solid.
I'd also suggest fixing the re-vault thing survivors can do. Where if you correctly mindgame the pallet and they drop it while you are cloaked, you should be able to break it before they can vault it again. This is a general thing though really and there should be like a fraction of a second grace period where killer can break the pallet before the survivor can vault, or maybe where kicking it can cancel their vault or some other thing.
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@Poochkips said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933034#Comment_3933034
Sure, but if we constantly say "Tunneling is a viable strategy" wouldn't that mean gen rushing is a viable strategy? Both are just playing the game in the end. Unfortunately, with any PvP based game, one side has to ruin the other sides day in order to feel the joy of "winning"
I think it's rarer that we walk away with everyone usually feeling super happy about how they won or lost.Yes, but my answer is that the game would be better for everyone if tunneling was not only not "required" to play efficiently, but not possible from a gameplay perspective, and the game was balanced in such a way that killers could actually go for getting 12 hooks.
Killers generally don't have that much more fun tunneling than the survivors who get tunneled. I'd rather win by going for 12 hooks, unfortunately its just not an option unless you are playing nurse or something.