Reinami
Reinami
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- Reinami
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@KerJuice said:
As always, not one suggestion in this thread as to what else survivors are supposed to do. What are 3 survivors supposed to do when the killer is already in chase with the 4th? Killers do not want the third player hanging around for the flashlight save or sabo play correct? That’s annoying correct? So please, for once- instead of complaining about this dumbass term of “gen rushing,” give some suggestions what else survivors can do within current game mechanics so it “lasts longer” for killer. I’m waiting.
P.S Totems and Chests take mere seconds and survivors are already doing them every match. We see each other interacting with them in the HUD.
My suggestion isn't that survivors do something else, it is that the game is designed in such a way that you won't lose 3 gens in the first chase and/or there is some kind of comeback mechanic in place for killers.
An example idea i had for example, is to make the time it takes to complete a gen scale with the number of gens done. So, for example, right now, each gen takes 90 seconds. So as you do gens:
- 1st gen: 90 seconds
- 2nd gen: 90 seconds
- 3rd gen: 90 seconds
- 4th gen: 90 seconds
- 5th gen: 90 seconds
- Total: 450 seconds.
Now for example what if it scaled in such a way that you had like:
- 1st gen 130 seconds
- 2nd gen 110 seconds
- 3rd gen 90 seconds
- 4th gen 70 seconds
- 5th gen 50 seconds
- Total: 450 seconds
Same amount of total time, but means that the game starts off a bit slower. Also it helps out with 3-genning, because that last gen can go super quick so 3-genning becomes weaker.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3934115#Comment_3934115
Well, my example is probably their worst nightmare, the kind of result their hypotheticals can’t explain away.
I had everything stacked against me:
- Eyrie of crows: most survivor sided map.
- Playing Vommy Mommy; tall, easily spotted from far away.
- Low mobility killer.
- Mostly an M1 killer with a conditional M2.
- One gen left, only three hook states, and all gens with progress.
No tunneling. Still pulled a 3K win.
According to them, that’s “impossible.” But it happened.
And that’s the point, tangible gameplay beats endless what-if spirals. Hypotheticals aren’t being used to explore ideas or balance. They’re being used to deflect, to protect their belief system, and worse, to avoid the work of actually analyzing games.
What ifs and hypotheticals can go both ways, endlessly. All they are doing is trying to win an argument on the internet. Nothing to do with dead by daylight or balance. Much like the "like" and "dislikes" they are looking for confirmation bias reinforcement.
So yeah, it’s ironic. They say "I’m in a fantasy for not tunneling", while they build their argument on a fantasy version of matches, and ones that I post as well. Dismissing them and picking them apart to fit their narrative, and ignoring the things posted above.
We need to push back, because if all the forums ever hear are emotional complaints dressed up as logic, developers, and players; never get the full picture.
Its not impossible, but it basically requires the survivors to make a mistake. Survivors have to make mistakes for killers to actually win (outside of nurse and such, but nurse doens't play dead by daylight, she plays the nurse game).
If you had a game for example, where both sides were mechanically perfect, and made every decision perfectly accurately, the survivors would likely win, because the game requires killers to capitalize on the survivor's mistakes.
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@Poochkips said:
It's literally the main/only objective to do in the game for survivors next to unhooking and totems. Having an issue with survivors Gen rushing is like telling them not to play the game. Yes, it sucks to watch 3 gens pop in a singular chase that took you longer than you would have liked to finish, but…..it's….the point of the game….I really don't understand why people get so bitter about it.
This is a legit question. No bitterness, just intrigued.
Survivors and Killers both make some arbitrary rules towards one another and what can constitute as "Toxic behavior". Just curious why this is even one of them.Firstly, why do survivors complain about tunneling? Its pretty much the same reason for killers. I don't like calling it "gen rushing" more so, "gen efficiency"
The game is obviously designed in such a way that assumes that survivors aren't all going to be efficient on gens, but when they are, gens fly and the game is basically over within the first 2-3 minutes. The first chase should not dictate the entire game, and unfortunately, due to how the game is balanced, unless you are playing one of the top tier killers against a team that knows what to do you are probably going to lose.
Mathematically speaking, if your team is, you know, actually doing gens, all you have to do is shift + w around the map while being chased, predrop a couple of god pallets, and 3 gens will pop.
Yeah you could argue that the killer should drop chase and try to go somewhere else, but we are assuming good players who are probably communicating. So, you tell your team the killer dropped chase, and immediately hop on the nearest gen. And given that, unless the survivors make 2 bad mistakes, you are gonna lose 3 gens before you get that first down. And from there the game is effectively unwinnable if the survivors know what they are doing due to so many systems in place to prevent the killer from catching up:
- You can't tunnel someone out easily because of so much basekit and perk based protection
- You can't camp someone out because the game will let them unhook themselves
- You can't regress the gens because you gave a limit of 8 regression events and survivors eventually win the long game.
- You can't deal with it in the endgame because gates open too quickly, and never regress even if you push survivors off of them
- You can't even easily secure that final kill in the endgame because for some reason basekit BT still works in the endgame.
Survivors get many many many MANY second, third, fourth and even fifth chances through basekit mechanics, perks, and having teammates to help them. Killers never get any second chances, and when they do through things like, arguably, NOED, they get complaied about and nerfed.
And on top of all that, look at the roadmap, and see whats coming:
- More anti-tunnel things
- More anti-slug things
- More anti-camp things
So i ask you simply, where are killers second chances? Where is the basekit corrupt, or the basekit corrupt on totems that makes it so i don't lose my hex immediately because RNG spawned survivors on top of it? Where is my basekit pain res that encourages me to spread hooks? Where is my basekit regression that makes kicking gens without gen defense perks worth it? Where are my basekit gen defense tools that make it so i'm not forced to take some kind of slowdown perk(s)?
They don't exist, and thus, i just play nurse, because that's the only option really left to me anymore.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933893#Comment_3933893
You called it, my friend.
You called it.
I know you are a freddy main so i'll just say, its a shame we can't have the old old freddy back who had a power that was very themeatic to the killer.
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@lettuchia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933334#Comment_3933334
Wesker is considered fun to go against despite being balanced around an 11 second cd (which I think you'll agree could easily remain the case with 10 seconds), so Vecna could be balanced around 40s cds (again meaning an average of 10s between spell usages) and still be fun to go against
The problem there is that realistically only 3 of vecna's powers can actually land a hit in a loop, and even then its really only 2, and even then its really only mage hand because the projectile is hot garbage.
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@GeneralV said:
Half of it is really cool, imo, I like the doors and the concept of the security office.
But discount Huntress? So underwhelming, so disappointing.
The exact same problem of not giving killers unique abilities, the very thing that has plagued Freddy since 2019. Hard to believe it was done again.
I know you commented on another post i made about this, but all i can say is.
Told ya. Same thing with freddy, same thing with sadako, anytime we get something truly interesting or unique, it gets complained about until it is nerfed, nerfed again, gutted, and then reworked to basically be the sameish boring killer power that we already have.
And when i say "nerf" i don't even mean its OP. Its just that for some reason people just don't want to actually interact with these unique powers.
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@IrisLP said:
I'll get straight to the point. The Go Next prevention measure isn't going to work for several reasons.
First you have to know that most of the people who do Go Next are NOT playing to generate Blood Points. In fact, they don't care about BPs; what matters for them is winning the match (many even have the mentality of simply wanting to humiliate the killer, they don't even care about help the teammates).
This leads me to the conclusion that these people will constantly use lucky offerings to be able to use Go Next. What does this mean? They'll still have opportunities to reach phase two on hook.
What will happen if they're not allowed to reach phase two and the other teammates unhook them? The same thing that's already happening when we prevent them from doing Go Next: Survivors will go AFK or sabotage their team.
In other words, they'll blow up engines, they'll throw pallets that the killer will break, they'll be running after the killer so they can hang them again. Of course, the killer isn't to blame for this happening and will take the opportunity to get rid of a survivor, but then the game will be doomed from the start; it will be unplayable.
As a soloQ player, I've had plenty of matches where one or two players just don't want to play anymore, and no amount of human power can force them to. Obviously, for killers, these are easy matches, and they'll get rid of them if they want to. But as a soloQ survivor, I have to say that when you get five matches in a row like that, it's frustrating, annoying, and it makes you quit and go play anything else.
This is something that ALREADY HAPPENS. And I don't see how the measure they want to take will make the games any different. SoloQ is already hell... and honestly, this isn't going to help improve it.
And what will happen? You won't be able to report a survivor for attempting to Go next if the survivor has a lucky offering because their play will be justified by saying they had said offering.
And if I report it, how am I going to prove that, even if they have the perk or the offering, they performed a GO Next? Will I have to record each of my matches to submit a ticket?
So far, I've reported Go Nexts from several teammates many times and have NEVER received feedback about it. I think it's going to be more complicated to report the unsportsmanlike behavior this time.
I say this because if people are carrying a Lucky Offering and the Slippery Meat perk and are reported for attempting a Go Next when they actually wanted to use their perk, what will happen? Nothing, because their attempt is justified? So... what will happen if they're carrying this but actually intended a Go Next, but it can't be taken into account because they're carrying that combination? Do you understand what I mean? In those scenarios, what will be the key to determining who deserves a penalty and who doesn't?Those things are all bannable behavior though.
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@D0NN1ED4RK0 said:
title
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/5NQ27PI1AL1U/img-6028.jpeg
and here’s the buff incase you haven’t seen it
Regression is 0.25 c/s. Hitting a gen with say, pop at half, would regress it by 13.5 seconds.
To get 13.5 seconds of value out of cob you would need:
Old CoB: 216 seconds
New CoB: 108 seconds.
At that point, you may as well run literally any other perk. Base regression is just too slow for this to matter. They really should buff it back up to 200, and even then its probably still not worth it, but at least its decent at that point. They nerfed it a time they were worried about the gen kick meta. But that was more eruption doing the work rather than any of the other perks. They hit that meta too hard by nerfing all of the perks to uselessness and ALSO adding in the 8 gen regression limit.
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I suspect they did that on purpose because people did the math.
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@GeneralV said:
Anything but a dash or ranged attack, we have more than enough of those.
It probably won't be that, but then it will get complained about and turned into that a year from now.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931742#Comment_3931742
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931707#Comment_3931707
I tried your advice, legion just canceled hes sprint and i was 1 hit.
I insisted on trying this out and when the other killer found me i was also just 1 hit.
I stand my ground on not mending in 2v8 is a bad idea.
Obviously if the legion cancels you need to start running, you don't just sit there…
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931473#Comment_3931473
Yeah in 4 vs 1. in 2v8 everyone is healing against legeon.
There is a very popular combo RN with Oni+Legion, what do you think happens if you dont try to heal up?
I mean, in 2v8 you have 2 less gens to repair and 2v8 isn't really gonna be balanced anyway. But the point still stands that, legion runs around and doesn't down anyone because they are legion, oni is chasing 1 survivor, has a quicker chase, while 7 survivors are on gens?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931435#Comment_3931435
This is probably the worst advice, but i can see the idea you have. But doing that gives you very little slack should you be interrupted by another killer, and it also prevents for from being healed up, making you 1 hit down.
what? Thats what you do…. its not the worst advice… its literally the counter to legion….
And… Heal? That's also your problem, don't waste your time healing against legion.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931058#Comment_3931058
You absolutely balance around the average skill level rather than the top 1%, not a fun reality if you are in the top percent of players but I understand that if you balance for the tiny minority, the game dies very quickly
Great, then nemesis is fine and no worries then and we can all go about our day.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931061#Comment_3931061
What lol?!
It is a literal zero skill single hit that takes a less than a second and worse still, the second you have mended they can be back on you to force you to do it again. It is beyond tedious and as General said, Legion in 2v8 was a mistake, a BIG mistake
See my above post.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3931061#Comment_3931061
it doesn't? LMAO You can literally go away after frenzying someone, and they mend and you can come back and hit them again half the time, which is the annoying part in 2v8 as some people don't respect the power and it eff's you over.
it's just bad design.See, there is the problem. You are mending when the legion runs away. That's not what you should do. You should run to a gen, start working on it, and wait until the mending bar is almost empty, THEN start mending. By then the legion is super far away, or chasing someone else or doing something else.
Of course if they keep chasing you, then you don't need to worry about mending, you just loop.
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@Samura1Jack said:
The FNAF chapter is coming next month, so exciting. I wonder does the mid-chapters provides huge changes like in 6.1.0. Chapter patches has some updates for current content, but very little. I'll never forget the excitment when the 6.1.0 was announced. Enormous numbers of balance changes. But there aren't updates as big as 6.1.0 since then. I really want to have an updates like that. Wonder why they only made that kind of huge update once.
Both sides going up against the 20-ish perk every game and the other 90% of the perks aren't given love makes the game stale. The grind to play this game at its full potential for new players are rising. There are flaws left in the game for both sides and in general. This game will have more attention like never before starting from the FNAF chapter, to keep but better yet to rise that number will be the question.
What kind of balance will be if it happpens? Just imagining balance changes are fun for me at least.
Making tunneling and camping not possible from a gameplay perspective and dealing with how fast gens can go without gen defense perks (I.E. nerfing the perks, buffing the basekit). Nerfing certain structures like killer shack to be less strong.
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It takes longer to apply mending then it does to get rid of it.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
I am not a huge fan, I think the buffs to his tentacle made it ridiculously strong but ONLY if the player is good with the killer and knows the extreme limits of what the tentacle can do. In those cases, the range feels a bit too long.
That being said, I would take Nemi over Knight, Trickster or Twins on any day of the week
EDIT: I also have to add, did they give him a really massive hinder effect in 2v8 that I am sure isn't present in the normal mode? I absolutely LOATHE hinder as a status but I swear this is not part of normal Nemi game play, right?
If its only affecting the really good nemesis players, they are also only going against really good survivor players.
Ultimately though, do you balance the game around what the better players are capable of doing? Or the average skill players?
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930991#Comment_3930991
Heheheh truth... though I still maintain as a not even high level and mostly SoloQ player... dealing with the Box is just common sense...
Just using your HUD tells you all you need to know... and it's really not hard to handle even without comms... Though in the same breathe the older I get, the more I'm beginning to think that "common sense" is a bit of a misnomer, and isn't actually common at all 😖😵💫🥴
But there's no indicator telling your team that you are going for the box. For example. Its the problem of saving someone on hook. If you go to save someone on hook, but someone else is already going, then you are just wasting time. You need to be able to tell your team what you are doing.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
I thought I hated legion and Wesker but the ghoul is quickly making his way to the top.
The instant hits right out of a leap need to go. Cancelling your power mid leap shouldn’t be a thing.
Even if you couldn't cancel the leap, you were way out positioned there. There was just bad play on your part, like why did you go that way where there was no pallet? You should have cut over to the window. Hell, even better, you shouldn't have left that pallet so quickly at the beginning. Short loops like that are where this killer really struggles, and you immediately left that area to move to a position where the killer is at their strongest, and expect to not go down?
Also, if you couldn't cancel, then what would the power be? Just swinging around? You need to be able to get hits with the power.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930646#Comment_3930646
It’s kind of crazy that it’s possible for Legion to injure 8 people and then hit a 9th on a single use of their power. I remember someone on this forum actually trying to argue that Legion wasn’t a problem when paired with Oni because “any other killer can also injure people”. LOLZ
I mean, considering its going to take you a solid 60+ seconds to actually do that, and the killer has no power after that? That seems reasonable.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3930773#Comment_3930773
Which is crazy to me...
I've never really understood why people struggle with the box so much... Pinhead Box is really quite easy to play around with a half sensible team... just need someone with the lowest hooks to grab it perioidcally and run to a place with safety nearby to solve it and problem is solved. Either he teleports, in which case you loop him as you would normally, or he doesn't and you either end the chain hunt, or he manually interrupts you... in which case you loop him as you normally would, but with the odd chain to dodge…
I remember getting smashed by Pinhead the first time I played him, but after that I understood his power pretty quick, and barring his nail add-on and some cracked Pinheads with nasty builds, I've been mostly fine with him ever since...
As a Pig main however, I get much more concerned about headtrap timers on Survivor than I do Pinhead boxes... because if the Pig knows her headtrap pattern and a Survivor doesn't pay attention to/understand them, it can put you in some really nasty scenarios...
I get quite scared when I see a good Pig with certain perks/add-ons and I know I'm on a bad trap pattern... or worse, my paste eating thirst Sable teammate insists on getting healed when I know shes on a bad trap pattern. 😶
"Half sensible team"
There's the problem, the game is designed in such a way that you are supposed to work together, but the game also doesn't give you any method of actually doing that outside of being a SWF in discord. Thus the eternal balance problem occurs. The concept of SWF breaks so many things in this game it is unbelievable.
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@Twiggsy said:
In a interview with Matt himself he confirmed Springtrap will have the most heavy side objectives for Survivors to do.
Do you think this will cause him to be hated
Yes.
Every single time a killer is released that requires survivors to not hold m1 on a gen, it gets complained about, reworked, nerfed, and reworked again until its just a watered down copy of another anti-loop killer.
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@hermitkermit said:
I get that watching survivors teabag at the gate is annoying, and I’m not against ideas to make the exit gate less safe in order to discourage this behavior but abandoning the match the moment gates are powered isn’t a good solution. That would completely bypass the endgame collapse and cut the match short for everyone, even survivors who are still playing seriously or haven’t reached the gate yet.
There’s a big difference between asking for tools to handle BMand asking for the power to end the game early and force an end on the survivors who might not even be involved in it. There’s no killer bot, the match will just instantly end. There are challenges that require you to do certain things during the EGC as well, such as being the last to leave.
I feel a better solution might be making the Endgame Collapse timer go faster if survivors are inside the exit gate, that way, there’s a built-in system to discourage camping at the line without breaking the match flow for everyone else.
That doesn't solve it because survivors will just hang out just outside the gate.
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@thrive2survive said:
Just make it to where Legion only can stab up to 4 Survivors before getting a down on the next hit as usual. Not sure why they increased that number.
They do that and everyone will complain about the "Free downs" because its super easy to get 4 survivors when there are 8 of them.
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@indieeden7 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928416#Comment_3928416
A Huntress cannot see someone drop a pallet, then decide to pull up and still get a guaranteed hit. Houndmaster could.
No she can't, she still needs to start charging it before they drop the pallet.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928308#Comment_3928308
Then the most empathetic, genuine response I can give you is that you maybe need to consider if playing PVP games online is for you.
Because unfortunately, in every PVP game I've ever played there have been BM, toxic, and bully players. Tea bagging, emoting, taunting, and even toxic chat and voice is something that exists everywhere, and if it bothers you that badly you may just need to walk away.
Because in all of my experience in PVP online games these things have always existed, and that includes games where there is no disconnect penalty at all.
There is no mechanic that they can add that will fix that issue for you.
And in every PVP game I've ever played, the penalties for this have always been through game mechanics (barring extreme and reportable examples of things like chat messages). Bad actors getting farmed, spawn camped, or sometimes just their own team refusing to help them.
But if that genuinely bothers you and triggers an avoidance response, then online PVP may not be the best environment for your mental health and well being.
Normalize punishing toxic players.
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@CodeDB said:
When y'all are arguing over this proposed mechanic, how are you envisioning it working?
Because right now, if a killer abandons a match, the match ends right there and that would be my issue with the killer having the option to leave as soon as the gates are powered/opened/whatever.
There are countless reasons for a survivor to want to play out the end game. There are specific achievements, rift challenges, and even just bloodpoint incentives for specific actions during end game. Add on the fact that the game is designed for survivors to only even see the gates powered in about 40% of their matches, it would make things even more frustrating.
If the survivors all abandon right now, there are still bots and the match can continue as mostly normal. The killer can still get their daily ritual mori, hook in basement, etc challenge done in that scenario. Until we have bot killers (or allowing an endgame with just no killer), I don't think this would be a good option.Flip that on its side. Survivors can just abandon as well. With 2v8 there are killer bots.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927529#Comment_3927529
I think when people talk about stuff like this they tend to forget that maps are not strict built to be a straight line. A lot of maps wind and turn in various different ways and there are borders that exist within the map to limit how much a Survivor can inherently do something like this. Because of this, youll eventually reach the position where a Survivor has to turn, they have to take an alternative path, which creates room for cutting offs, shortcuts, or unique pathing to catch Survivor off guard.
Not every single chase is going to be the same amount of time, sometimes it might be longer because you make a mistake as Killer, or sometimes it is shorter because the Survivor makes a mistake or they get outplayed. People are people, and people are humans, humans make mistakes all the time, but either side can capitalize on those mistakes to great effect.
Finally, not every map has multiple God Pallets that Survivors can just throw over the drop of a feather. Maps vary, and some maps are better than others. The difference in a maps like The Game and Haddonfield really show since The Game is full of multiple God Pallets while Haddonfield is bone dry with resources and loops to begin with.
Technically speaking, your math is probably correct (Im not going to argue against the math itself), but it does not consider the nuances of DBD, which is why I dislike it when people use math in regards to chase time instead of providing more tangible data (e.g. average chase times from their own gameplay, data and statistics from community averages, etc.).
There is no scenario i can conceive of, unless you are immediately cornered, that you can't apply this. If you are on 1 end of the map, you can simply run to the other end. Loop around a pallet for example in the corner until you can escape out, and then do it.
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@09SHARKBOSS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928009#Comment_3928009
yeah if you are higher up you don't need the buff anyways because you are already doing good almost everywhere else BUT I do see your point so why not buff his chase a little instead of teleportation which i'd say is fine as is personally
If you are higher up dredge needs tons of help, he's one of the lower win rate killers in high mmr.
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@09SHARKBOSS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927972#Comment_3927972
i disagree with you on the faster breaking of locks and not teleporting to the locked lockers but adding more and in strange places would be fun
a lot of people lock both anyways
and you could just add an option to swap what locker you are in to the adjacent one if anything of course requiring a teleport charge
Thats my point. Most people lock both, so its a change that doesn't really hurt low skill players, but in high level play, where dredge needs some help, it would be a buff.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927948#Comment_3927948
The argument people should be talking about are survivors that purposely hide during the EGC, because there isn’t a quick way to force them out the exit gates.I'll start by saying that I think the killer should get an abandon option with the gate open, perhaps with a few conditions.
The problem with this argument though is that the trial is still going on. The abandon system should exist either for situations were the chance for any additional kills/escape is incredibly small (all survivors slugged) or the game has broken down (survivors just in complete hide mode for 10+ minutes, and that version still needs work).
If the survivor is hiding in the map, the killer might still kill them. This is really different than the survivors standing just on the cusp of the exit t-bagging.
But killers just deal with it right? Notice how all your situations there are about survivors.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927959#Comment_3927959
yea but i can turn that psychology and maturity back on survivors but it's infinitely worse because it's a perk problem because survivors can switch their perk load out oand bring boon exponential and unbreakable and turn that situation around instead of begging the devs to add a brand new mechanic that allows survivors to just dc for free and killers to lose at every scenario
Worst part is they made the slugging DC a draw for survivors. Make that make sense.
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@SeriousRain said:
I think he is rare, on the weaker side Killer who needs some help. I think he is so cool and creepy killer but his power is hard againts decent Survivors.
I would love if locked lockers would not work or only half duration during nightfall. Add more lockers on some maps too (helps other killers too).
- Dredge in the game should spawn more lockers by default, and even potentially have them in weird places to change things up.
- Breaking locks should be faster.
- Remove the thing that makes it so you auto teleport to the locked locker. If 2 are close together, a survivor should have to lock both of them.
From there i'd see how that goes and if he is still bad potentially increase his anti-loop potential by making him move a little faster when anti-looping and/or adjusting his teleport speed (the anti-loop one)
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@TheSingleQuentinMain said:
As the title suggests, I hate fighting clown, but as one of the weakest killers, I think it's important to give him a shake up of some kind, especially if Behavior intends to nerf killer perks to make it so stronger killers aren't more OP. Being that I hate him, I'm focusing on Buffs that I wouldn't mind fighting, and in fact would kind of like. I do main killer, so there's obviously some bias. I also have a hot take of sorts: Killers should not be reliant on perks. Survivors shouldn't really either, but Killers being reliant on perks means whenever they get nerfed to handle the strongest killer being OP, the weakest killers get hit too. This is bad, and the best way to fix it is to make Lower tier killers more independent of Perks.
So my hope here isn't to fix Clown for the ways I dislike him, nor is it to make him Brain dead better such as buffing the hindered status effect or something. The goal is to give the killer a higher skill ceiling by adding new gameplay elements to his existing kit.
Buff 1: Long Shot Rewards
Direct Bottle hits on a survivor who is 8 meters or further away from the bottles original throw point suffer 4% extra hindered. This way clowns are rewarded for precision aiming, and survivors can sort of be rewarded for dodging bottle throws. The 8 meter minimum is to make it so the bottles require some travel time, giving survivor's room to dodge the direct hit.
Buff 2: Yellow Bottle bonus boosts
To make yellow bottles both more viable, and have more situations they are useful in, they will now grant minor action speed boosts to Vaulting, Pallet and Gen breaking, Basic Attack Cooldown, and an increase in lunge distance. If you are invigorated, the boost is only 7%. If you are inside the yellow bottle's gas or were inside of one less than 1 second ago, the boosts are increased by 13%, making a total of 20%.
Buff 3: New Throw Form, Wall Passer
To help on indoor maps, while aiming a bottle, Clown can press Ctrl while aiming, and the bottle you are throwing will be in Wall Passer Mode. After Wall Passer Mode is active, a thrown bottle that would have broken on an object gains 0.5 second of no collision. Afterwards, if the bottle is inside of a wall, prop, or collideable object, the bottle will be deleted, playing an audio cue to signify it didn't work. If it is not inside an object of some kind, the Bottle will return to normal, and then hit some surface. The idea here is that the clown will be able to throw bottles threw wall or props, so the killer has way more options.
If the bottle does not collide with anything after 4 seconds, the bottle will be destroyed as if it were inside something. This way it doesn't cause any bugs from being outside the bounds of the game.
Honestly, i'd just want him switching bottles to be easier. Just make it so if you press the button it instantly changes the bottle, rather than the weird cooldown/delay it has.
Then give him some kind of map control/traversal. People have suggested letting him trap generators for example, and being able to put a gas on them.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927590#Comment_3927590
"They can crawl around when slugged" which means…what? They can force the Killer out? They can kill the Killer? They can actually stop the Killer from humping them? Exactly what "agency" does crawling around provide? You have the ability to punish the Survivors for their "toxic" behavior, while Survivors do not have the ability to punish Killers for their "toxic" behavior.
Pushing Survivors out and potentially getting an extra kill is way more agency than what crawling around can provide.
My point is, saying "just hit them out" and "you have agency you can go break a pallet" isn't much different than what i said. "Just bring unreakable" and "you can crawl around" and "you can still get bloodpoints from hanging out in the killer's terror radius.
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@maipace said:
I always wondered, can't you put restrictions on the behavior of survivors inside the gate?
For example, can't you block the exit to prevent the survivor from escaping for a certain period of time only when he/she does certain actions such as “stay in the gate for more than 30 seconds”, “flash the light more than 5 times”, “bend over more than 5 times”, and so on? Can't you do that?
It would be nice to allow killers to abandon the game, but if we can penalize people who are playing the game for the purpose of making others uncomfortable in this way, it would not be a problem for people who are playing normally and would create an opportunity for killers who are uncomfortable. I think that this is a good idea.
Personally this is what i think they should do. They should simply make it so basic attack from the killer will block the gate for say, 4 seconds.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
This argument again?
I especially love the false equivalency to slugged survivors, which is apples and oranges absurdity.
No one forces the killer to watch survs teabag at the gate; no force transports you to the gate and fixes the camera on the survs, and the survs can't follow you around with the gate and force you to witness them like a killer can stay on top of you as you helplessly crawl.
Honestly, if people are so terrifed of lame survs teabagging in the gate, just open it yourself and don't go near either gate. Worst case you spend two minutes breaking stuff or otherwise scrounging BP. Or just go AFK.
And there's a non-zero chance one of the goobers comes out and gets themselves killed. And regardless, we're talking about a max of 120 seconds, during which you still have actual agency.
There is zero comparison to being humped by a killer for four minutes.
As a killer I don't sweat this at all. I won't give them the satisfaction of me watching them, but I find ways to spend the time. I'll break stuff, use my power/tp if it scores points, etc. If I'm playing Huntress I'll goof off trying drop orbitals or cross maps into the gate. If I'm playing a stealth killer a killer with a one shot power I'll hide just outside and see if I get one to come out (which does happen).
But I don't think "boy, I sure wish I could DC".
Survivors can crawl around while slugged, so they actually do have agency there. If you are comparing "breaking random pallets and collecting some BP" as agency, then i think its fair to bring up the counter that the survivors can also do the same while slugged by crawling around in the killers terro radius, collecting boldness points, and recovering a bit for survival points.
Also i think that you are looking specifically at EGC, which yeah, is a 2 minute timer, but there is the time before that for opening the gates. Which ultimate probably makes it pretty equivalent in terms of time, because survivors have to run over to the gate, then open it, then the timer starts. All of which takes some time.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927581#Comment_3927581
Okay so you are hard moving onto another topic entirely in the post now with hypotheticals and goal posts around what you personally define as high mmr.
This post that started out as:
"I dont like seeing survivors t-bag me at the exit gates, please implement an abandon feature for it"
Pivoting(no surprise) now to:
"Heres what high MMR can do in matches, but I cant provide any documented proof of that, just accept what I say"
Make another post at this point, as you have gone off topic from your OP, and provide tangible proof to back up what you say. Make sure to not cherry pick the data you also use.I mean, it is true, but i was merely responding to another post and then you responded to me jumping it. In general you are correct though, lets stay on topic. I would be happy to discuss all of the other points, but if so, lets make another thread and not clog this one up since this one has a specific topic and purpose that isn't really what we are talking about now.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927540#Comment_3927540
Have you never played a game at high MMR?
You led with this question for:
- "You’re inexperienced"
- "Your argument is invalid because you must not understand high-level play"
If you want to have an honest discussion about high mmr you need to watch the things you actually quote like chase times, because you quickly will see you are just leaving kills on the table, because you want to give up. Because "the exit gates are powered"
In my spare time here I watched some of the tournament rounds and they consistently get kills, even when the exit gates are powered with the ability to body block.
• Both dredge matches from Elysium and Eternal exit gates are powered, no insta down ability, 3 body blocks, and they still secured a kill in the end.
• Unknown qualifiers, Silence still secured a kill with 3 body blocks available, no insta down ability. And exit gates were powered.
• Origin qualifiers, Plague still secured a kill a kill with the exit gate open.
• Quarter finals, Houndmaster secured their 2k with the exit gate open.
Like I could go on but you cant just ignore kills on the table, "just because the exit gates are powered".
With your suggestion on abandoning just because the exit gates are powered.
You essentially want to give up at that point, because you dont want to play that part of the game.
If you had your way, killer 0ks would become inflated as people would give up when they could still get a kill.
You cant quote high mmr chase times and hypotheticals in your "head math" post above, but then ignore actual high mmr gameplay when it doesnt fit your narrative. .
This entire post has shifted from "let me abandon I dont like tbagging"
to "you see what people in high mmr can do?"
If you want to pivot (stay on topic, this doesnt work on me)from frustration about survivor behavior to a debate on killer viability at high MMR, make another post, but let’s not pretend it’s the same topic. It isn’t.Tournament results are not valid in this type of discussion because many tournaments impose different restrictions on playing specific maps, and banning specific perks per killer. For example, on nurse a ton of perks are banned, on trapper, very few are banned. Trapper goes to his best map specifically, and TONS of survivor perks are banned against trapper and far less against nurse.
Basically, comp attempts to balance the game different per killer and have different ladders and rankings per killer.
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@ChuckingWong said:
Egh…when posters try to assume others MMR. Especially when you never get to see these people's play in any format its just like…
what are we doing here?
You are just assuming only you has high MMR experience, let alone are even high mmr to begin with, and then just assume that others arent.
It really just leaves their argument on grandstanding with nothing factual behind it.
Noone here, including me, knows their MMR.
Its like trying to appeal to authority, but the authority is themselves.notice how the very first statement i made was a question asking "have you never played a game at high MMR?" and then describing a common scenario i encounter. I didn't assume anything, i asked them a question, then described a common experience in my games.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927502#Comment_3927502
Funny how you have to construct a fantasy scenario where the pristine killer in shining armor really wants to go for 12 hooks this game and politely takes at least 90 seconds to get that first hook, but the evil survivors are touching generators instead of waiting patiently to get these numbers.
Have you never played a game at high MMR?
If a survivor Shift + w to a corner of the map, no pallets, no windows, no nothing, and lets say you are a trapper, do you know how long it takes to 2 hit that survivor and down them and hook them? Lets do some math shall we?
Some quick facts:
- Lets assume the survivor is super slow, and doesn't realize the killer is near them until they are 16 meters away. Then they shift + w to a corner
- Killer moves at 4.6 m/s
- Survivor moves at 4.0 m/s, and 6.0 m/s after hit that lasts 1.8 seconds
- Killer needs to be 3.61 meters away from a survivor running away for a lunge to connect.
So lets look at it:
- Survivor starts running at 16 meters shift + w
- Killer takes 20.65 seconds to catch up to the survivor to land the first hit
- Survivor takes off at high speed and the killer can start moving again when the survivor has gained 14.4 meters of distance
- Killer takes 17.98 seconds to catch up to the survivor to land the second hit and down the survivor
- Survivor is downed in a corner of the map
- Killer wipes the blade, 2.7 seconds
- Killer picks up the survivor, 3 seconds
- Killer walks to a hook about 19 meters away (on average), 5.16 seconds
- Killer hooks the survivor 1.5 seconds
Now STOP, how long has this taken now that the first hook has happened? Lets add it up:
20.65 + 17.98 + 2.7 + 3 + 5.16 + 1.5 = 50.99 seconds. Lets just called it 51 shall we?
51 seconds and that is assuming the survivor doesn't use pallets, doesn't use windows. What about if they say, idk, predrop a god pallet, like shack, one time in the chase. How long does that add?
Well, from one side of a pallet to the other is a little less than a full lunge distance. I'd say its probably about 5 meters ( a full lunge is 6.21 meters). Survivor drops it, and starts running from 4 meters away. Killer breaks it, and it takes 2.34 seconds. This is enough time for the survivor to get 14.36 meters away. How long does it take the killer to catch up? 17.91 seconds, lets round up and say 18 to make it easier
So predropping just 1 single god pallet at shack, adds at minimum 18 seconds to that chase. Bringinging it to 69 seconds, from 51 seconds.
So now you know where the "predrop 2 god pallets lose 3 gens" comes from. Because quite literally, you can completely no skill just predrop 2 god pallets that by definition MUST be broken because they are not mindgameable, and shift + w to a corner of the map, and you will last long enough for the other 3 survivors to do 3 gens.
The devs have stated before at one point that the game is designed in such a way that the average chase should last around 45 seconds. So this isn't too far off from that.
Now i know what you are going to say next. Probably something like "well that's if your temmates do gens" and YOU ARE RIGHT. That is the point, at high MMR? Your teammates WILL do gens, and this is a typical game you get when you play one of the lower tier killers like trapper, and wraith, and pig, and doctor, and demogorgon and so on.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927355#Comment_3927355
It isn't a double standard if people tell you why Survivors get something that Killers don't.
It is a double standard when all the times that a survivor would want to abandon it counts as a draw, but the one time a killer does it counts as a loss. The entire system shows the bias BHVR has for survivor players.
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@Crowman said:
It's always amusing the double standards people have towards killers.
It is what happens when the game is desiged in a way INHERANTLY that there are 4x as many survivors as there are killers. It really is the big problem with most of these asymmetrical games, is that its horrible to play the "1" because you truly are the "1"
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@Roco45 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927243#Comment_3927243
I think most people just want to be able to play the game. So are you saying Kaneki is balanced?
Is he better than nurse?
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927290#Comment_3927290
the difference in this case, is that survivors can do nothing about the being in dying state, however the killer can do a lot to force survivors out of the match.
The difference is that i don't want to sit and watch a bunch of people be toxic, teabag me at the gates and then insult me in the endgame chat while you all do nothing about it.
The fact that you admit here that its "fine" if survivors get to be toxic, but when killers do it its a problem we need to make game mechanics around dealing with is really telling.
The fact that you say this, and then your "abandon" system considers the game a draw everytime for survivors, but the one time a killer would want to do it is considered a loss just shows how survivor biased BHVR is in their decision making..
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@WolfyWood said:
Abandon Feature exists to prevent hostage situations such as killers bleeding everyone out or survivors not doing gens.
EGC is not a hostage situation by virtue of still being able to hit, hook, or kill survivors.
You also have the agency to push them out or farm blood points elsewhere.
If we're going to add Abandon options just because something feels bad then they should let you Abandon If you get hit on hook or a gen gets popped in your face.
How is 4 survivors bleeding out on the ground for a few minutes any different than survivors teabagging at a gate and not leaving for a few minutes?
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Already
@GentlemanFridge said:
I wonder if this won’t just encourage never fully finishing a trial that doesn’t end in the killer’s favour.
already happens right now, i rarely finish a game where a killer winning doesn't turn into the last survivor just DCing.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927099#Comment_3927099
but but just tough it out and push them out…. /j
@alvinofelix said:
Gate powered? So endgame collapse happen?
Yes I know feeling when survivor tbag you at exit gate, but you can just afk in corner or something IF you cannot beat them unless you running end game perk like noed and bloodwarden
Imagine the time before end game collapse happen, I was once got held hostage for like an hours due to survivor not want to leave
so i have to sit there for several minutes, but a survivor sitting on the ground bleeding out is a big problem and they should be able to leave?