Reinami
Reinami
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3912162#Comment_3912162
I would argue that Kaneki is better than Nurse for the lack of a skill ceiling that this killer has.
I have seen Kanekis get blatant hits while lagging - something a Nurse or a Blight cannot do as the game doesn't point you to the survivor and automatically put you onto them. Can a Blight or a Nurse bodyblock you in the same fashion as a Kaneki can? Nope. - Kaneki basically does everything better - he can traverse better, his innate mobility is better, he gets enraged quite consistently (making it so that he's often always enraged) while problematic builds are quite oppressive on him. Why did Hens not mention these specific builds on a Nurse or a Blight that are in the same category of S tier? Because the game doesn't handhold you into playing Nurse or a Blight and give you free hits and then give you the mobility to close down chases as frequently as the other S tiers.
Even Dracula cannot do the things Kaneki does, yet Dracula still is up there in lethality for their mobility. Why play other S tier killers when you can shut your brain off and play an auto aim killer?
Well, you heard it hear folks. Nurse is officially a worse killer than the ghoul.
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3912077#Comment_3912077
If people are consistently saying that the killer is problematic, the queue times are affected, hits are pretty blatantly misses (I've had a Kaneki try to aim for the person they're tunneling, mess up two lunges, and auto aim onto me, while still trying to tunnel out a survivor) - then it's quite apparent that the killer needs changes.
Additionally, their Iri Mask add-on needs definite changes as the Hens build is problematic for a multitude of different reasons.
A built in BBQ with screaming after Ultimate Weapon was problematic, yet Behavior creates an add-on that is built like that on demand on a killer who gets enraged quite often. It's damning how Behavior creates problems in their own game, want to penalize people for going next, and then create an absurdly overtuned killer, while wondering why or how people still want to proceed to GO next or kill themselves when versing this killer — it's preposterous.
You are acting like he's better than nurse though. He's not. So he's not like (lets killswitch him) broken. He does need some minor tweaks but the reality is people are blowing it way out of proportion.
The point i'm making is that playing the killer for a couple hours on the PTB does not dictate if that are "good or not" it takes time to figure out how to play as and against a new killer, so saying that like "PTB should catch this" or "everyone said he was trash on PTB" makes sense, its just reality, it takes time to figure stuff out and PTB is often not enough time to figure these things out.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911452#Comment_3911452
Kinda hard to release a balanced killer when on ptb people say "lmao ****killer D tier"
Looking at the ptb, Kaneki looked insane, yet the community tried it's best to clown on him from the reveal.
Dracula and Vecna had solid kits, but we're undertuned on ptb. So the narrative lately that bhvr has been selling OP new product to push sales shows yet again this community isn't to be trusted to not make knee-jerk reactions.
Probably because it takes time to figure things out, on both sides. This is why you shouldn't make changes too fast until people have had time to let things marinate and see how it goes
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@LockerLurk said:
I frankly think the 32 charge Toolboxes are the big culprit yes, and need addressing. It's absurd you can stack a 32 charge box with MORE recharge and then also bring perks to recharge it, and also they do the gens at increased speed. That adds up. If four people bring boxes like that, especially if they are coordinated and good Survivors, it's very hard for some Killers on some maps to deal with. That's really unfair to them, but it's nothing for someone like Blight or Ghoul.
I say address that first, and then look at gen repair and slowdown. Supercharge boxes are the big big issue, I would rather toolboxes be used only for Sabo and not repair at all - I actually sometimes feel unfairly buffed when I use these as Survivor so I rarely bring them anymore, I prefer medkits and maps to help my team.
I think survivor items in general are somewhat of a problem. You can bring nothing and be at a slight disadvantage or bring a super cracked toolbox and be a massive advantage.
Chests are also worthless right now. So what i would think is they do a rework of chests where "bringing" an item actually just spawns it in a chest somewhere that only you can open (and see the aura of) to force you to run over to it and pick it up out of the chest. This would then be a buff to the chest perks which are pretty horrible for killers as it is, and could a boon to chest perks for survivor, maybe things like plunderer can make your item stronger when you loot it from the chest, and so on. Or maybe plunderer lets you open someone elses chest to get a copy of their item or tons of other potential effects.
Then if you don't bring an item, you still spawn a chest, but its a random item with random addons.
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@HeroLives said:
on the survivor side the tutorial should come with a warning that healing under the hook is a terrible idea.
Even that isn't always true though, maybe the person unhooking has we'll make it and/or the unhooked person has resurgence. Maybe the killer is super far away on the other side of the map. Maybe the killer is oni, and running away will just give you a trail of blood that leads to you while giving him even more blood to soak up.
Too many factors
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@Clevarz said:
I know a lot of things are happening like the event and the release of kaneki and Etc and the fire is only increasing but if you think your hardest is this better than what behavior was and used to be and do you think they are deserving of a little credit for how they "improved" if you believe they did or need to work harder and have a whole lot more room for improvement from being considered "Better" from what they were?
what is your thoughts on thisThe game is simultaneously in the best state it has ever been in, while still being in a horrible state and needing a ton of love.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
Franklins by itself is fine, but I'm still convinced that weave attunement is too much value for one perk.
It's got the value of at least 4 perks in one:
- You have to drop your item at the start of the match, revealing your position. (Lethal pursuer)
- You have to go drop said item in a corner somewhere, which is mandatory travel time before you can jump on gens (corrupt intervention).
- You lose the immediate use of your item without going to collect it. (Item counter)
- It's wall hacks if any of your teammates don't understand what to do. (This is the actual aura read of the perk)
- For whatever reason, it also makes you oblivious.
And I'm going to point out, that the first two are the value the killer gets for the survivors "successfully countering" this perk. And no, you don't even have to run franklins to get that value, since anyone with a brain cell is going to see Weave and just assume you have franklins (even if you don't run it also).
So you get this entire list for just running weave attunement, even without franklins.
Dropping your item in the corner, which takes maybe 10 seconds to do, effectively deativates 2 of the killers perks.
Would you rather the killer run 4 slowdowns instead?
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3911196#Comment_3911196
At what level? Are you saying a high mmr killer player will lose the majority of their games purely because of killer pick? Or are we talking competitive?
If we are talking comp, they have their own rules. It doesn't matter nor is it related to the normal gameplay by any capacity.
Otherwise, as far as I know stats relating to high mmr indicate killers are doing fine there too and nothing would suggest it's purely because of nurse/Blight. Sure you may have a harder time running weaker killers but the same could be said for survivors running non meta perks.
My point is that if a killer can queue up in any mmr, pick whatever they want, and still win most of their games, there is no reason to nerf survivors at a higher level, especially since any nerfs will undoubtedly trickle down no matter how targeted it might seem.
And yes, it's way easier to be bad at survivor than killer. Maybe not in the past, but with maps and perks continuing to get weaker, killer has never been easier to win with especially considering tunneling/camping which have a low skill floor to begin with.
Considering how easy it is for killers to tunnel/camp their way into high mmr I definitely think there's merit to balancing around high level killers and average/below average survivors.
I don't have the stats but I'd be confident estimating that the proportion of high mmr killers to high mmr survivors would be skewed in favor of the killers.
There's too many factors that influence survivor success, which is why the most successful survivors are in swfs and why they're too rare to be balancing point.
As far your second point, it removes the desire to learn because the result would be marginally better than an average player because the structure is so weak.
Shack is also one of the only static strong loops in the game, several maps would become Haddonfield tier if shack was no longer strong.
The only reason why DDS shack has the breakable door is because the main building is extremely close to it and the devs had the foresight to see how it'd be problematic.
Nerfing Shack on Rotten Fields would be nonsensical.
So you are just biased then. You think we should balance the game around what the highest level killers are capable of, but what average survivor players can do.
At least you are consistent. But i'm sorry, that is pure bias.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909535#Comment_3909535
But why do survivors need to get nerfed at a high level? Is it not understood that killers being stronger than SWF makes it so there's no reason to play anything but killer.
The trade-off is that killer can easily win vs uncoordinated teams and easily win vs mediocre SWFs, but is challenged by competitive SWFs. Competitive SWFs are a tiny minority of a minority, meaning that anyone, experienced or otherwise, can pick up killer and have a good chance of winning not only one, but several games at any given time on any killer. That's good design. I genuinely feel like if you're on a loss streak as a killer player its a skill issue.
For suvivors the idea is that the more coordinated you play, the higher your chance of escaping is. Nerfing things like shack just removes any incentive to learn how to play the game. That's not even considering coordinated SWFs don't even have egregious winstreaks either.
Because the only viable killer(s) at that level is nurse and blight? Is that not a problem to you?
So these teams are rare, and we should balance around the average level players.
Then by definition you must contend with the following fact:
If you balance the game around average players, then nurse needs massive buffs, because she is often one of the lowest, if not the lowest kill rate killer in the game when looking at average level players. Unless of course you mean the game should be balanced around average level "SURVIVOR" players but high level killer players, in which case you are obviously holding some massive biases.
Lastly, you didn't try to refute anything i said, read what i wrote. And explain to me how nerfing killer shack would hurt the lower skilled players. You said it removes incentive to learn the game. Like, what? 1 structure being slightly nerfed suddenly makes it so there is no point in learning the game? You can't maybe learn the game by learning how the structure works in this different state. That doesn't make any sense.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3910033#Comment_3910033
I can understand what you're saying, but cleansing Pentimento has to be done multiple times just to get rid of the extremely potent slowdown. The trade is SUPPOSED to be a powerful effect you cleanse ONCE to get rid of it, that's the basic idea of hexes.
I'm not saying that hexes don't need help because they absolutely do, but with the way Pentimento is currently designed, it's actually standing in the way of that. Hexes being improved from basically any angle with current Pentimento in the game just makes the already very powerful perk even stronger.
Making each cleanse more actually impactful (while still maintaining the timesink of multiple cleanses) and instead making multiple lit totems a focus instead of a safety net is a good first step to actually being able to safely buff hexes as a mechanic, hypothetically.
The point of pentimento is specifically to force the survivors to stop doing gens to do the secondary objective because it is more efficient to do so. What happens if that number is too low? I'd bet we hit a point where suvivors just don't both to cleanse it. The good teams already ignore plaything because then they'd know they have to deal with pentimento.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909662#Comment_3909662
We don't actually know how this scales, so it's premature to say that it's dead in the water.
30% is a nuts number, by the way, that's almost the largest amount of % slowdown you can get from a single perk. You don't need the 30% for it to be worth running, it being 30% is just what makes it incredibly strong.
Personally, I would say it starting at or above 10% would maintain it being useful. Any higher than that for the first stack and the perk's just still flat out good.
Almost like hexes shold be stronger given that they can be cleansed. It still awful that they nerfed ruin the way they did.
Look at all the hex perks, the only one worth taking is devour and even then its really just RNG that can win you the game.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909559#Comment_3909559
Oppression doesn't directly damage the generators it starts to regress (other than the one you kicked obviously) so it doesn't trigger regression events. With the vastly lowered cooldown it received a while ago, it's a not terrible perk, especially when combined with Surveillance.
It's not great, but it's workable.
Base regression is a complete joke, 0.25 c/s, takes 4 seconds to remove 1 second off a gen. At high level play, ain't nobody missing that skill check. So the perk effectively does nothing other than start regression which is already garbage, but only if they aren't working a gen. Which, again, at high level, they will be.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909497#Comment_3909497
they tunnel and camp even with the slowdown
Precisely why i said that tunneling needs to be "fixed" so it just isn't possible.
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@imabakedpot8o said:
There's a bunch of pretty solid alternative perks…
Pain Resonance
Dead Mans Grip
Grim Embrace
Surge
Dead Lock
Corrupt Intervention
Eruption
Call of Brine
Overcharge
Oppression
i listed the top 3.
- Surge is bad on most killers and survivors just take the killer away from gens making it do nothing.
- Deadlock is okish, but gen regression is far better than blocking in most cases.
- Corrupt only is valid for the first 20 seconds of a match, and realistically isn't as good as it seems as it causes survivors to split up faster when you want them together.
- Eruption is horrible since the nerfs, 10% regression is nothing when a down happens because hooking a survivor takes 20 seconds, and 10% is buying you 9.
- Call of brine is AWFUL and the fact that you listed it is laughable. Base regression is 4x slower than progression. So making it 125% means that to regress a gen from 0.25 c/s regression to 0.31 c/s. So congrats, you gained 1 second of time every 17 seconds
- Overcharge is useless in high level because they always hit the skill check
- See overcharge.
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3909414#Comment_3909414
If killer still had the upper hand vs four other players who were organized and in comms what do you think would happen to the rest of the game?
This is why if you see above i'm calling for balance decisions that nerf things at low level play that need to be nerfd, while buffing them at high level play that need to be buffed. And vice versa.
An example of this i would give is lets say, killer shack. Killer shack is typically one of the strongest structure, if not the strongest in most maps for survivors. Right? In the hands of a high skill survivor, they can usually, using checkspots, or seeing through the shack, force 3 vaults, before the hit or pallet drop happens, (obviously i'm not counting nurse/spirit which play by different rules, but the rest of the killer cast) wasting a solid 30 seconds of time just to get the pallet and not even land a hit. This is especially true when its connected to other strong tiles.
But, what are "average" skilled survivor players doing with killer shack? Are they looping it like crazy, using checkspots to vault 3 times and saving the pallet for the perfect time and wasting 30-60 seconds of a killers time? No, they are not. Usually they are quickly dropping the pallet, getting it broken, and the moving on or getting hit.
So based on that, what would happen if the devs "nerfed" the killer shack. Maybe by giving it a breakable wall, like the one in Dead Dawg on every map, or what if they removed the holes in it so survivors can't see through it anymore, and killers can properly mind game it. What will happen?
Well, in high level play killer shack become significantly weaker, killers can mindgame it, and its actually a threatening place for the survivor to be at and isn't just automatic safety that, if the killer chases there, they just throw the game.
What about in low skill play? What happens? Well, the survivors aren't using killer shack to that level of play anyway, they aren't using checkspots, and they aren't paying attention to where the killer is through the tiny holes in the walls. They are going to continue doing what they already do now, quickly dropping the pallet, and getting hit or moving on.
This is an example of a change that would "nerf" survivors at a high level (where it is needed) but doesn't actually hurt the survivors in the lower level of play.
There are many other changes that can work in the reverse as well which i could provide examples for, but you should get the general idea here. Its not a simple "just make gens take longer" or "just nerf or buff this perk"
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@DeBecker said:
Why are killer always overreacting on each and every nerf? We heared the same as regression perks were nerfed last time and what happened? The same perks are still played. and you dont even know the details yet. Killer bias in a nutshell.
The same perks are still played because none of the other perks are better, but we just lose harder against good teams.
Why should an organized team of 4 on discord be the "power role"?
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@coldflame said:
would rather gen perks be nerfed to be niche at best and gen speeds be generally slower tbh, theres no way gen perks wont end up just being optimal with the current way the game is set up no matter how much whack-a-mole is played with the back catalog
I have been saying they need to do with gen defense perks (and anti-tunnel for that matter) what they do with many addons for killers. When addons are so good that they feel "required" to play a killer, the devs will often buff the basekit, and nerf the addon. With the final numbers changes being, with the addon, the numbers are effectively the same, and without it, they land somewhere between the halfway point of not having the addon, and having the addon.
For example if there was an addon that say, lowered the cooldown of a killers attack from 3 seconds to 2 seconds, and the addon felt "required" to play. They might lower the cooldown of the ability to 2.5 seconds, and then make the addon reduce it to 2 seconds. Making it so its still the same with the addon, but that without the addon, it feels much better. Making it so people would be incentivized to do other things.
This is precisely what they should do for gen defense perks and anti-tunnel perks. I'd argue tunneling should just be impossible from a gameplay persepctive, and then rework all of the anti-tunnel perks to do something else in general. But in the case of gen defense, do things like, buff base regression, buff the regression on kicking a gen, add a basekit corrupt that lasts a really short time, add some kind of basekit pain res-type effect on a fresh hook. Then go and nerf all the perks related to this.
This would lead to a much better healthier game where gen defense and anti-tunnel perks wouldn't be required and people might actually take fun unique builds instead of seeing the same 15 perks every game.
The problem is, they are just slowly taking away gen defense without doing anything to the basekit. And in the case of tunneling, they seem to refuse to do anything about it for some reason.
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@WeaverReaver42 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908052#Comment_3908052
Except what you describe it essentially what is happening, with both survivors AND killers already. Every day since I've been back, even before Kaneki went live, there hasn't been a single moment the survivor blood point bonus was under 25%. Genuinely, most survivors AREN'T top tier players. The bully squads people talked about? How many of those are just better players kept at a lower MR because there is far more effort to deal with those two killers than anyone else preventing them from playing against people who don't need those killers to do well? How are people who play the worse killers meant to go against players who are equipped to deal with blight and nurse meant to overcome those inherent bonuses?
How are you supposed to let those other killers be good, if anything that buffs them will take nurse and blight over the edge?
If they really are the "only viable" killers, then that means they just need to bring them down to a lower level so they can make killer as a whole a better experience. If there are only two examples that "work" in high level, that means they are probably (definitely) overturned for low level, and killer as a whole needs to be changes to take into account high level play.
But anytime anyone ever talks about bringing teams like that down a peg, the answer is always "but they are rare"
Ok fine, i flip it back to you. Those God tier nurses and blights are also rare. Nurse often has one of the lowest if not THE lowest kill rate in the game. So why does she need to be nerfed again? Because its pretty rare to run into a good one after all.
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@WeaverReaver42 said:
We all know facing mostly Blight and nurse is a drag. Especially when it's almost guaranteed to be someone who is going to make sure you don't survive. What can we do to stop that? Well, nerfing them is USEFUL- however killers still need to play the game so that will only take us so far. Which is the point, WHY are the "overpowered" killers more popular? Because the less you focus on "finding and killing" the more you can focus on "winning". Chess merchant is a perfect example of how Survivor's Win state and Killers win state created an impasse in terms of skill. Skull merchant had to be gutted because she allowed the match to continue on for FAR LONGER….. which when you look at the inherent design of the game is the main way a killer "wins".
Killer winning is as much about delaying the survivor win condition in equal measure to just finishing the mooks. You need to delay the survivors long enough to force them to run out of resources to escape you. Easier said than done.
Killers like Blight, Nurse, and POTENTIALLY Kaneki (Kaneki technically works on legion rules, but his movement is good enough that you can potentially circumvent it- especially if a pallet/window are involved- however I still feel it's too early to know for sure where they stand balance wise. See my previous post about the response to a killer that, as of this post, is still LESS THAN A WEEK OLD) are just fast with NO caveats. Unlike Legion, Xeno (the tail is negated by flame turrets- just don't place them right at the generator- be tactical), Wraith, or any other example you can think of: there is no "counterbalance" for those two examples to make their speed less impactful. Wraith can reach survivors quicker than a regular m1 killer, but the invisible state that lets him do that becomes an outright DETRIMENT in loops. Your finding time is low- but your killing time is HIGH. Legion is the same way, except they can struggle to actually reach survivors at first- but once they get the first injure and deep wound, now they can increase their momentum and apply the same damage on multiple people. In exchange for not being as good on approach, they apply enough pressure that they are already halfway to "killing time" being over for that chase when they reach the person before their power ends.
Notice how Nurse and blight have far less restrictions on their mobility? Notice how there is nothing to punish them or slow them down? Sometimes lacking an "exploitable" weakness is the best strength you need.
Nurse and Blight can be FAR more mobile than any of those other killers (Unless it's an indoor map or with too few obstacles- then Xeno gives Blight a run for his money). What do they exchange in lethality for this insane mobility? NOTHING! They reach survivors fast, they can catch up to them just as easy while trying to "kill" them (as in, even after injuring them the survivor is still vulnerable to the same type of attack unlike Legion), and worst of all they have this ability return often and fast enough to quickly recover from one chase to chain it with the next.
Every part outside of "finding" a survivor is faster for these killers, while their ability to put a survivor in the dying state is barely hindered at all. Blight can't injure you on his first dash? ram a wall and do it the second! Nurse? You can move through walls, ignore pallets and windows, all with the push of a button. Yeah- not exactly much in the way of obstacles for her. (I feel like if they gave her a similar ability as nemesis where she had an "extra" hit state that required people hit by her teleport attack to be in deep wounds before it could put them in dying state- that alone would make a HUGE difference)
The only thing a Killer needs is to
1: find a survivor- which is very easily accomplished with most perks
2: make that survivor vulnerable to death (namely by downing and hooking them) through chasing and finishing them off
3: Prevent survivors from finishing generators and leaving, which is ALSO very well covered by perks.
When you look at nurse and blight- it becomes obvious that their reduced delay in being able to find a survivor acts as a soft bonus to preventing them from finishing generators (cover more ground in less time and such). That, combined with no increase to their requirement to chase? They functionally have a built in design to win already- they have the vulnerability and prevention both taken care of by default BEFORE perks. Now they just need consistent information (very easy and plentiful) while also having the option to further reduce or delay the generator and escape processes (not as plentiful, and constantly nerfed- but it's still there).
The main issue with nurse and blight, is that the match doesn't account for their increased efficiency. Trapper's main weakness is how slow he is to "get going"- yet we are surprised that killers who are the exact opposite dominate?
These killers NEED ways to counter their inherent advantages, right now they are the only "mobility" killers who have nothing of the sort. Fixing THEM is a matter of changing that, and preventing future examples is simply a matter of comparing the pros and cons of how easy it is to finish a chase and reach the survivor to begin with.
Blight should have an "anti-serum" mechanic, where you have limited use items like Wesker and Nemesis. You can use them to have an area temporarily reduce his uses of his ability before cooldown. Maybe have an add-on where it will negate his power, but grant him a small speed boost to compensate (like hag's add-on that does the same thing). Nurse I already gave a suggestion for- but she in general is a bag of worms. I feel like keeping with the theme of delaying the survivors dying (because she is a NURSE) and being forced to meet a requirement. If her being able to use her special attack to down a survivor at ALL is the issue- just create a mechanic where she has a timer before her next attack can be a "killing blow". Only when that killing blow is active can she actually put a survivor in the dying state with her teleporting attack. Like Thana, the more injured surviors the greater her benefits while she waits for the killing blow to be avaliable. This could range from "faster power refill" to outright Buffing how many TIMES she can actually knock a survivor down with the special attack. She can teleport just fine, but if you want to do any lasting harm- you have to do due diligence first.
I've rambled enough, thank you for coming to this Psychopath focused fair play thought exercise.
Notice how those are the only 2 killers who are viable at the highest level of play?
If we took the best player in the entire world for each killer, I.E. the best trapper player, the best wraith player, the best nurse player, and so on. And pit them up against the best 4-man survivor team in the world, and had them play 10 matches in a row on the same map (pick one that doesn't have any or much RNG) what would the outcome be?
I'd guess that most killers would win maybe 1 or 2 matches. Maybe a handful could do 3. Excpet for nurse and blight, which i would suspect would actually reach that 50% winrate mark.
That is a bigger problem to deal with i feel.
If you nerf these 2 killers, then the top of the top mmr killer players who are playing against those types of teams, will start to go down in rank. What happens then? Then the survivor players start getting matched with weaker killer players because there is nobody left at the top. Then what happens? More and more people who aren't ready for teams like that start playing teams like that, and stop playing the game. Then we have a cascading effect where these top teams are getting weaker and weaker killers.
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@imabakedpot8o said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907681#Comment_3907681
Not true. In any other game if the host has bad ping it automatically migrates to a new host with a more stable connection, and the person with bad ping suffers alone. rightfully.
Only on games that aren't using dedicated servers, which these days is very few of them.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
This netcode is atrocious, you hit a survivor and they'll be still vaulting and moving after they go down, on survivor side you'll vault a window and get hit after you leave it. Balanced lancing is useless this patch because killers can just hit you during your speedboost.
On killer side you can't even punish portals or much of anything with a standard m1, yet as high mobility it's easier than ever right now?
Why can't you just put it to how it was before the hotfix of the houndmaster midchapter…?Its how it works in every other multiplayer game. The advantage usually lies with the attacker. But in DBD, there is only 1 attacker.
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@quelaag said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905364#Comment_3905364
Since when is Nurse hitscan?
You think this killer is better than nurse?
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@WolfyWood said:
I know there's like several parts of the game on fire right now but why is no one talking about this map being unplayable?
Ever since they fixed the 3gen its not as bad.
Bigger maps that need fixing right now are probably badham and the game.
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@M1_gamer said:
I am not asking for nerfs, I want to try to actually learn his counterplay before i make such decisions.
I'm struggling a little with 1 specific part of his power. I don't know if it has a specific name but its where the ghoul can like launch himself forward at high speeds and tag a survivor with a extended cooldown animation which applies deep wound. I try to take cover, use the environment to make it harder to tag but I seem to be getting tagged before i can even react.
Any tips so i can fix my skill issue?
There are a few key points to note
- The killer is strongest when they are able to do the slide. They can only slide on the leap that isn't the last (so the 1st leap, and also the 2nd leap when they are enraged) the last leap does not slide.
- Treat the killer like you would a blight most of the game, don't just go out into the open or you are gonna get hit. You need to stay in the loop until you force the killer to either break the pallet, or stun them with it.
- When it comes to the pallet vault thing, don't just drop the pallet, you need to try and stun the killer, or bait them. When they go to right click and go for the leap, if you keep running instead of dropping the pallet, they are slowed significantly enough that you should be able to get around the loop before they can catch up, resetting the situation.
- If you drop the pallet and they back up slightly, you are going to get hit by the power probably, you need to treat it like a huntress, or xeno, or nemesis etc and not just drop the pallet, you are going to hit by those killers too, just like this one will hit you if you do that.
- Seriously, pay attention to the slide, you get to see the icon the killer sees where they are aiming, so you can judge where they are going to land and where the slide is going to go to, so start to position yourself out of LoS of them based on that. When holding the attack they move slower than a survivor does, so if you get out of LoS you should be able to avoid them.
- Realize that the attack is HITSCAN and not a proper "hit". This is why sometimes it looks like you get hit through a wall, because the killer clicked the button while you were on their screen, and it happens on frame 0, then you stop moving and they dash forward and then the hit happens. In reality you actually already got "hit" as soon as the button was clicked, the animation just plays out later.
- Don't heal against the killer, but also don't not heal, treat it kind of like a plague with the fountains. You want to sometimes heal, but you don't want to just heal every single time. Its hard to judge when that is the case, but generally, if the whole team is injured, its time to go for a heal. If you need to go for a save, its time to heal.
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@NewPlayer100102 said:
I enjoyed the part of this thread where it was quite reasonably well reasoned that Nurse needs some buffs.
@Reinami .
Now all you need to do is rally the local echo chamber behind you and make it happen!
Anyways, in the world we play in, yes they are coming up with ways to work around Kaneki's abilities.
If you believe the game should balanced around average skill players, it is the only logical conclusion you can come to, unless you are extremely biased.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3906308#Comment_3906308
I just told you how to balance nurse so average killer players can perform well while preventing her from dominating the game once mastered. You make her conform to actual mechanics of DBD.
If you can't handle that because I didn't just fall for your little gotcha trap card attempt, I don't know what to tell you.
Ok, fine, lets take THAT logic to its final conclusion then.
You think nurse should be made easier while nerfing her for high level play.
GREAT lets do the same for survivors. Maybe we can nerf some of the really good loops in the game like killer shack, and jungle gym, and remove all of these crazy connected tiles, and make every pallet mindgameable after it has been dropped. Average skill survivors aren't going to be going against top tier killer players who know how to mindgame a pallet properly, and at the top level, survivors won't have guaranteed safety like they do on the majority of maps.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3906302#Comment_3906302
Lmao so predictable. Ok ill fix nurse for the average player.
Rework her power entirely so that she doesn't exist completely outside of normal DBD game mechanics. She can have close to normal killer speed but in exchange her blinks would no longer go through walls and terrain.
Now the average player can pick up nurse without getting facerolled for 4-6 hours before building up muscle memory. And the absurd winrate at the top end will be reduced to be in line with the rest of the roster.
You're welcome!
See, you aren't willing to admit the truth. Now you suddenly want to rework a killer who is undertuned based on your logic. That isn't the case here.
You either balance the game around average skill players, and by definition you must also demand that nurse needs to be buffed
Or you balance the game around top skill players, and then we can have a real conversation.
If you aren't willing to admit it, then there really isn't much else to say.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3906296#Comment_3906296
Yes. The era of multiple hundreds of matches winstreaks should never have existed and should not continue.
Ok great.
Now lets take that logic to its ultimate conclusion then. Because you cannot say that, and not have the following statement be true.
Nurse then needs to be massively buffed, because when BHVR releases data on nurse for all queues (the average player) she is often one of the lowest if not THE lowest kill rate killer in the game, often far below 50% kill rate (when they balance for a 60% kill rate).
So, if we balance the game around average players, you MUST take it to its logical conclusion to maintain consistency and demand that nurse also needs to buffed more than any other killer in the game given her current state.
Would you agree with that statement?
Unless of course you mean that the game should only be balanced around average SURVIVOR players. In which case, all i can say is that it shows extreme bias toward one side in that situation.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3906291#Comment_3906291
Right so killers can continue winning 9/10 matches with no difficulty just in case the 1/10 might give them a hard time. Never mind the flip side where the majority of solo / casual swf teams are just supposed to accept that most matches will be hopeless.
So you balance games around average skill players then? That is what you think should be done?
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@[Deleted User] said:
I think it's moreso good teams are learning to counter Ghoul. I think Ghoul's macro ability is just so good right now that only SWFs that are on point with the comms and have the perks to counter common pressure strategies are capable of dealing with it. It also just so happens that these groups tend to share their chase counterplay observations (like paying extra attention to positioning on tiles and leap cooldowns so you don't get enrage vault speed'd, for instance), so games against them feel that much different.
Still needs some minor nerfs to help out solos IMO (map adjustments would go way harder but w/e). I hope they don't completely gut him, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do initially, because the stats have to be brutal.
So the killer should be nerfed so teams can stomp him even harder? You don't balance games around average skill players.
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@[Deleted User] said:
The killer is way, way, way too easy relative to their power level. The hit scan needs to be reduced by at least half in size and range. The cancel into M1 needs to be looked at to. I'm not sure why we're going down this road again, considering we've already been there with killers like PH (if anyone remembers his initial release). The cancel into M1 has always been nerfed, historically. So I don't know why we have to go through this again.
A killer can't have an impossible to miss ability that injures in addition to the best mobility in the game.
Because unlike PH he can't down with his power.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
I've been enjoying Kaneki a lot, and I was very thankful that BHVR didn't change him outside of making the slide addon basekit when the Chapter went live. But while I personally haven't really seen any issues with him outside of general jank and hitbox problems, it's not exactly much of a secret that Kaneki is highkey one of the strongest killers in the game. I don't really have a issue with this, except for the other fact that Kaneki is incredibly easy to pick up and get good results with.
Let's just quickly compare Kaneki's ease of use to the other big top-tier strongest killers.
Hillbilly has to play around the existence of objects, understand what he can and can't curve around, play around loops in a much different way to a standard m1 chase if he wants a chainsaw down at a loop, can be juked in areas with elevation by ducking under him when he's above you, and has to get used to the Chainsaw's turning.
Nurse is very overrated in terms of how "difficult" she is since you can just slap on the Flannel addon and some aura reading perks and let them take care of 90% of the work for her, but she still has to learn the distance of her blinks, what the best ways of blinking in chase are to actually get a hit, and how to handle survivor mind-games when they break line of sight.
Blight has to learn what he can and can't bump into, how best to line himself up to get a hit at loops, what loops he can and can't use his power at, and can also learn things like bump logic or whatever nonsense "tech" the community finds. I do hate Blight a lot ever since they made his power extremely sticky and clunky but I can't deny that his skill ceiling is pretty high.
Wesker has to learn how to line up and use his bounds at loops to get hits, hitboxes of objects to actually slam survivors against, when vaulting with his power is worth it, and how to use his power in areas with low amounts of objects so that he doesn't just throw a survivor and waste his time.
Kaneki, in contrast, is able to get around the map almost as well if not better then Blight or Hillbilly, gets the first hit practically for free because of his incredibly generous lock on, can cut survivors off from resources at the push of a button with minimal effort required, gets a faster Bamboozle for free because of the Red Centipede addon, can vault over pallets and windows faster then Manual Scamper Chucky when Enraged, and doesn't even need to care about Endurance perks because he inflicts Deep Wound for free, at the cost of having to deal with MFT in every chase.
While I do think people overblow exactly how strong Kaneki is, one thing that is definitely not overblown is how easy he is to play and how little effort is required to actually get good results. I still say that Kaneki is weaker then Nurse and Blight and probably on par with Hillbilly, but there is no denying that he is way, way easier. Which poses a bit of a problem, Kaneki has both a high skill ceiling, and a low skill floor, which is fine, however he suffers from the SM 2.0 problem of being able to get good results with minimal need to actually get good.
I don't think this means we should just make Kaneki much weaker, a strong killer that's easy to pick up is not a bad thing, but he should have to actually work for that strength just like everybody else does. So with that idea in mind, here's how I'd change Kaneki.
- Remove the auto Deep Wound and make it something that only happens to already injured survivors that aren't Kagune Marked. This gets rid of 2 problems, Kaneki's ability to ignore Endurance perks, and his weakness to MFT. I'm not a fan of how easily Kaneki can tunnel, nor am I a fan of the idea of picking a perk specifically to counter one killer, so getting rid of the instant Deep Wound would solve both of those issues and make him need to chew through two health states normally like everybody else
- Make it so that Kaneki can't cancel Kagune Leap in mid-air. I feel like Kaneki currently is able to negate a lot of his intended slowdown by cancelling Kagune Leap while he's still jumping, so just making it so that he can only cancel it when he's done leaping and his feet are back on the ground would give Survivors a bit more room to breathe.
- Increase the cooldown of Kagune Leap, currently Kagune Leap's cooldown is either 8 seconds outside of Enraged, or 7.5 seconds when Enraged, I'd change this to 10 seconds outside of Enraged and 12 seconds while Enraged, just to give Survivors more breathing room.
- Make the lock on less egregious. I completely get wanting to make a power like this easier to use on Console, but currently Kaneki can hit people he isn't even looking at after getting across the map in 10 seconds. Plus there are so many instances already both online and that I've seen personally of a Kaneki accidentally grabbing a survivor when he meant to grab something next to them to cut them off, making this less forgiving would not only make Kaneki less annoying to play against, it would also promote actual skill expression and let good Kaneki's not accidentally grab survivors they don't want to.
So yeah, that's how I'd change Kaneki, like I said, I think he's fun and don't think him being strong is a bad thing, but I do definitely agree that he should be harder to play in exchange for that strength, and these given nerfs would be how I'd make that happen.
G'night
If the killer is weaker than nurse, then why nerf him when they never nerf nurse?
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@CruelLimits1982 said:
Even forgetting the "bugs" like his atrocious hitboxes there's nothing fun about being completely stopped and having to watch an animation and then being able to move again its so clunky and annoying. Also Dracula is now officially dethroned as the "come back to hook tunnel king"
The killer stops too, the problem is the animation is a bit wonky, its not actually doing anything out of the ordinary from other killers other than the hit is delayed a bit. You can't move, neither can the killer, you still get aspeed boost, killer still has to stand there wiping their hand.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905544#Comment_3905544
They haven't put out surv party sizes in a long while. Last time they did around half of all survs globally are solo (about 53% I think) and most of the other half are duos, with trios much less common and quads even rarer still.
We definitely need updated stats for sure I'd also be curious to see them.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8HVL7L2KMD7E/dbdpartysize.jpeg
Right, so based on that chart, which probably isn't much different now. ariound 55% of survivors are solo, 30% are duo, 10% are 3 players, and 5% are 4 playyers
So allowing solo and duo in that unranked queue covers 85% of the player base, and the other one covers 5% of the player base. So sounds like it would be fine. Its not that hard for 3 people to find an extra to play 4 man with. And, i would be interested in seeing the data around how many 3 mans are actually 4 mans that had 1 player drop because they had to log off for the night.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905499#Comment_3905499
This proposed layout eliminates 3-mans completely, which are more common SWF groups than quads are. Plus two pairs of duos also couldn't happen?
Do you have data on that?
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905499#Comment_3905499
The main issue with this is that in order to play ranked matches, players NEED to play with others. People who don't have others to play with miss out on a whole section of the game.
Solo players can't always team up with others but teams can split up and play solo if they wish. if I NEEDED friends to be able to play ranked I would never play it out of principle.
That's not much different than other games though. There's a big difference between playing "solo queue CS2" and "team CS2"
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@IamFran said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905465#Comment_3905465
Why you agree when there are elevation and not the other case?
They're exactly the same thing but vertically instead of horizontally.
I actually just had a game where i have a good example of a hit that looks really bad, but when you slow it down and look at it from the mindset of it being a hitscan attack, it makes a lot of sense and you can clearly see why it happens.
I'll upload it later and ping you on it. I'll agree that it looks bad, but the problem is not the attack, is that the animation does not line up with the fact that its a hitscan attack. The animation makes it play like a demogorogon lunge for example, but in actuality its like a CoD sniper attack.
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@BalanceBothSides said:
Tired of pre-determined outcomes (forced losses) via players using external communications that the game is not balanced around. If BHVR wants to sanction the use of these 3rd party aids they need to balance their game around their inclusion accordingly. Anyone in a group should be hit with a 15-%35% gen speed penalty depending on the size of the group/
I don't think this is a good idea. I'll be one of the early ones to say the gap between SWF and solo is a serious problem and coms provide tons of benefits. But i think it should be the opposite of what you are saying.
There should be 2 modes:
- Casual match
- Can only queue with 1 other person
- Every match guarantees either 4 solos or 1 pair and 2 solos
- MMR can still be used for matching
- Game is balanced around lack of communication through like:
- Perks can be tuned differently
- Gen times are different
- Anti-tunnel/anti-camp measures are different
- More pallets
- Basekit perks like kindred.
- Etc.
- Ranked Match
- Can only queue with 3 other survivors and killer
- Offers a bonus incentive for getting a high rank
- Actually show your rank and MMR
- Game is balanced around this style of gameplay through things like:
- Static only maps that are always the same layout
- Slower gens
- Perk bans
- Maybe survivors move slower even.
- Etc.
They can tune each mode around a 50% win rate and can balance killers and survivors differently based on the mode.
- Casual match
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@IamFran said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905465#Comment_3905465
Why you agree when there are elevation and not the other case?
They're exactly the same thing but vertically instead of horizontally.
Because the other case you showed me was from the survivor POV, and again, you are forgetting that its HITSCAN attack. Meaning that if you see the teeth and click the button, it happens on the next frame and the animation just doesn't line up. On the killer side of it, they probably clicked the button when part of the survivor was showing.
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@BassGuitarRox said:
Don’t know if it’s been brought up / discussed before, but I’m wondering if it would be something that could be good for the game?
After playing 50 matches against The Ghoul back to back since release, it’s got my wondering what if there was an incentive to ready up a match as an existing killer?
I’ve been really hype for the chapter, don’t get me wrong, but I think it’s quickly dimmed by the repetition and over-exposure.
I know the hype will die down eventually, and the variation in killer pools will go back to normal, but it really does get old quick - just think something when on a temporary basis for the 1st week of release may be a good thing?
What do you guys think?
It probably is not a good idea to incentivize people not playing content that they literally just bought. It will feel really bad.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
This character appears to give the killer complete control over chase, regardless of skill level of the player.
If there's one thing we should've learned from the 3 gen meta is that balance shouldn't give "new" or even "average" players complete control over the game.
There's nothing wrong with mastering a killer and performing well with them, but this is the first week... no one's mastered anything at this point. This is a skill floor that's so low anyone with a pulse can pull it off.
Maybe this is due to bugs with the kit not working correctly, or hitboxes, but this definitely feels like the killer is overtuned.
Right, and nobody has learned to play AGAINST him either.
Sadako still has a super high kill rate, higher than nurse, but you probably aren't going to think that she's actually more powerful than nurse. People just don't know how to play against her because she is rare to play against and has been reworked so many times most people still barely know what she even does. We are currently not even a full 72 hours after this killer has been out, people need to give it at least a week or 2 to chill a bit and see what happens.
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@Paradoxxx said:
I have seen dozens of posts complaining about kaneki's stunlock and I don't really get it. The stun for the survivor is only there because he himself also gets locked in animaton (much longer than a basic attack).The survivor doesn't lose more distance than they normally would compared to a m1. If you shortened the animation for both the killer and survivor it would actually be a slight buff for kaneki because killer time is more important than survivors (cuz there's 4 of them)
What makes ghoul oppresive is, his cooldowns are very forgiving, that's it. Kaneki's performance is basically gated by how good his cooldowns are, and currently it's a bit too short. I feel like a slight nerf to his cooldowns AND adjusting survivor hitboxes to be less forgiving would adress most of the frustruations facing him.Its the range on the attack (not the slinging), it probably shouldn't damage unless you are within like, 1 shacks worth of distance, or maybe a little more. Also probably removing the deep wound effect and making the enrage disappear faster to encourage you sticking with a chase rather than just spreading around.
Tunneling is a problem as well, but i feel that should be dealt with on a systemic level rather than a killer level. But he could do for having things like houndmaster where like the dog doesn't latch onto you if you were recently unhooked.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905355#Comment_3905355
SWF mode wasn't ready for launch back in 2016, but it was always intended. They could have either KYF or SWF done in time but not both, and quickly added in SWF not long after.
That just isn't the case. Like i said, look at many of the perks survivors have that are just simply around giving information to your team. Do you think any of those perks are any good if you are on discord or have voice coms? Like, in what world would bond be useful there?
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@IamFran said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905308#Comment_3905308
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1jre6ie/excuse_me/
Ok, here is a similar situation from two different PoVs, killer and survivor (different floors free hit).
Just no, it is wrong, no hitscan or stuff, it is just an unfair bad design.
This one is about elevation and i agree with you on. It should probably fizzle going up like it does when it goes down. But this is more likely a bug rather than an inteded interaction.
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@Caiman said:
Imagine having to deal with nonstop Ghoul players running full meta in the new game mode. I don't think it's going to be playable. New game mechanics for survivors to learn against a hypermobile killer who's always on top of you. Getting through the event tome is going to be a struggle.
Would you rather go against nurses doing the same?
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@Na1ts1rhc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905311#Comment_3905311
Otz underplayed how powerful Ken was going to be like CRAZY. Probably a huge part of why bhvr did next to nothing to tune him when moving over to live. Not necessarily the same thing as what you're saying but it is interesting that even he had to admit; and I quote, "oops ghoul is much stronger than I thought". Like c'mon bro you should've known he was gonna be a problem. Everyone was just too excited ig they didn't think for a second how oppressive Ken would be… Well besides the vocal minority who played the ptb and got ignored but who gives af about those slime rats am I right?
I disagree with this take. Otz posted that, and what did he show. 2 Matches against SWFs that almost beat him both times? Like ok so because he wins the killer is OP?
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@Aven_Fallen said:
The big strength of SWF is not communication, the big strength of SWF is to remove teammate RNG. I dont really know what people think what SWFs talk to during Discord Calls, but I can assure you that 99% of SWFs are not doing some tournament callouts. I have seen 4 mans not even talking about the game when playing with each other.
I dont think that DBD would exist without the ability to use Discord or other measurements of communication. Since a large part of playing with friends is to talk to each other. And the Devs also knew this in 2016, while the game might not be build around voice communication with the lack of information the game provides, even in 2016 the Devs were well aware that such programs exist.
While i agree that its not that every SWF is like, doing tournament style clock callouts. And as such i know people aren't always talking about the match. But like, what SWF isn't going to go "its a trapper" as soon as they see the killer, or something. Or say, "hes over at shack" occasionally.
The point is that discord provides "perks" that don't actually exist in terms of survivor perks. The game didn't launch with SWF and lack of information was a balancing factor for SWF as evidenced by the fact that SO MANY survivor perks are just "gives you some information about what your team is doing" or "tell my team what i am doing". Hell the idea of "looping" was mostly an accident too as the game was originally designed more as a hide and seek, but the players turned it into freeze tag instead.
On top of that though, discord gives you access to information and coordination that doesn't actually exist in perk form in many ways.
That's not to say i think it should go away, or that there's someting inherantly wrong about wanting to play with friends. But it definitely creates a big divide between solo queue and SWF. Which is why i think they should make a "ranked mode" that is only for 4 man SWFs which can have ranked rewards, and show your mmr and ranking and such and be where "the sweats" hang out. And then the more chill unranked mode only lets you queue up in pairs at most (and making sure that its never more than 1 pair and 2 solos in a match). Then they can have different balancing factors like gen times, perk changes, killer changes. etc, to account for the fact that the solo queue survivors aren't coordinating but the SWF ones are.
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@GeordieKiller said:
Honestly its been 3 days so nerfs calls are unjustified we are all still learning the killer in fact i have come across good survivors that already throwing some counters against me for example when you see he is attempting to leap like you do with nurse sharp turn into him as even if i cancel the cooldown before i can M1 allows survivors to make the loop/pallet
But overall the bottom line its been 3 days as of this post we are still learning to play as and against so calling for nerfs is unjustified give people time to learn
One of the things people haven't fully learned yet is that slide doesn't happen on the last leap. So when you learn that, you can know when cancelling is good.
I just went against a good survivor team that realized this, and kept track when i was enrage. I ended up getting 1 kill that match with only 5 hooks and the rest getting out.
The were able to know when i was able to slide, and double back and move into the right position to even avoid the attack part of it quite often. Didn't land my first hit until like 45-60 seconds into the match.
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@IamFran said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3904484#Comment_3904484
No:
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1jrgnsd/i_want_kaneki_to_not_be_nerfed_as_much_as/
No tiny part here, killer come two seconds after and hit a survivor which is 1m away from the window, I even doubt for it being a ping issue.
Hard to say without seeing the killers PoV here. As again, its a hitscan attack that doesn't line up with the animation. The killer might have click the button before the survivor rounded the corner but due to ping and the animation not lining up it looks weird.
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@Spooky13 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3905178#Comment_3905178
It seems like you're less focused on the balancing of Kaneki and more on the balancing of camping and tunnelling.
"The killer can camp from across the map."
That's why I'm aiming to lower his mobility out of chase.
"Taking away mobility actively encourages you to camp."
See my suggestion for him keeping 1 set of Enraged leaps after unhooking. Kaneki is still mobile even if he isn't Enraged, I'm not suggesting he be chained to the ground after hooking someone.
"Are you saying Kaneki is better than Nurse or Blight?"
I never said or implied this, you are making things up.
"Kaneki's power should encourage him to stick to a single chase."
That is literally the entirety of my second suggestion for him.Because when you factor those things in play, hes actually in a really healthy state, if you try playing him, and don't tunnel or camp, he's not only fun but pretty fair. Good teams are already figuring out how to play against him, not only am i having fun matches with him, the matches i have been getting are fair, usually very close games that can go one way or the other until the very end.
The reason i bring up nurse and blight is simple. Why are we nerfing killers that are weaker than nurse and blight, while not nerfing nurse and blight? It doesn't make sense.