Reinami
Reinami
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
I can't play the shuffle as survivor. Practically every killer I get is just hardcore tunneling because they know they're safe to do it with no anti tunnel perks likely in play.
It's miserable.
Yeah, as expected.
The game is balanced around survivors taking anti-tunnel perks, and killers taking gen defense perks. What happens when neither side can do those things? Killers hard tunnel because gens fly without gen defense, and survivors hard gen rush because killers hard tunnel survivors out as fast as possible.
Its a horrible mode and i don't understand why people like it.
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@BurnedTerrormisu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898738#Comment_3898738
What is normal ping for you?
Anything under 80. When you get higher than that, issues are going to seem more noticeable and the delay is going to be come more of a factor. The delay is of course always a factor, but at these levels you are talking only a few frames difference, something that would likely not be perceptible most of the time.
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@SaltyNooty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898738#Comment_3898738
I'm gonna preface you with the fact that you sound very ignorant when you say this, because it would take a quick search on IG, YT or TT to find some pretty crazy hits from killers, by streamers who play this game. But, i'll humor this and give you some direction.
So, there's this guy called skillcheckk, he's a streamer, right? On his tiktoks, which is specifically cut to show outrageous moments in DBD, like when he's looping or when he has these very same moments we're talking about (He calls them snipers.) there are these clips (The same ones you're looking for, BTW, Stay with me.) where he's fully through the window ON THE OTHER SIDE and he still gets hit.
Or perhaps Mish? I'm sure some people have heard of her. Watching her streams, i've seen some killers get some wild hits from quite a distance.
I could sit here and list all the DBD players I've seen get clips of Killers getting hits that they shouldnt, but, my point stands is that instead of actively sitting here Proving my point by saying "I haven't seen it" or "It hasn't happened to me, so it's just you." We could all open our eyes to smell the roses and realize, this is infact, an actual thing happening.I said "Normal ping"
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@SaltyNooty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898290#Comment_3898290
8/10 Bait. If we could lock-in for a couple seconds, we'd realize that this has been an issue for years that Bhvr has actively ignored and refused to solve when you are NOWHERE in range of the vault, window or lunge and yet somehow; it hits.
It doesn't and should never come down to a "Lol, I've never experienced this so it must be a you thing." When people have been saying this for YEARS. There's countless clips of evidence that prove that it's an issue that needs to be resolved. So, please, let's not act like it does.There are no clips of normal ping where hits are obviously bad.
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@imabakedpot8o said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898290#Comment_3898290
It definitely doesn’t work as intended, so I’m not sure why we’re pretending otherwise. Killers can land hits from what feels like Jupiter, even at 60ms. That’s just not how it should be, and it’s frustrating
Unless you got some kind of video, i'm going to call doubt on this, that its not as bad as you are saying it is, because its not. And sure, you can show me some videos of games where everyone has 200 ping and yeah, its gonna look bad. But in normal ping situations? I call doubt.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898547#Comment_3898547
It wasn't OP when it was 50% before the medkit nerfs when healing became 16 seconds, it definitely won't be OP if it's the new 24 second timer (meaning self-care takes 48 seconds to heal yourself), and it hasn't been OP since healing times went from 12s → 16s back in patch 2.3.0 - the perk has been mid since October 2018 and the 6.1.0 nerfs served to kill it outright.
Like don't get me wrong, self-care used to be the best perk in the game, bar none except maybe Decisive Strike. It has not held that crown for a long time because it wasn't the 50% that was busted, it was the 12s heals.
The problem with it being 50% is efficiency.
The point is self care SHOULD take more total survivor time than 1 survivor healing another basekit.
- Right now it takes 16 charges at 1 c/s to heal another survivor. So basically, 16 seconds.
- Right now self care makes you heal at 0.35 c/s, so basically 45.7 (we''ll say 46) seconds.
So getting healed by another survivor takes 32 total seconds of survivor time off of gens, and self care does 46 seconds. If self care was buffed back up to be 50% for example, you could heal yourself just as fast as it would take another survivor to heal you, but without the cost of having to find a survivor, and be grouped up (making it easier for the killer to pressure). It effectively would take all pressure off of healing at all. On top of that, it can be used an unlimited number of times.
If you want to buff self care healing "SPEED" back up to say, 50%, so its the same as another survivor healing you, then it needs to have some kind of conditional activation, or activation limit, or some other factor that makes it so you can't use it forever, and that it can't stack with medkits to give you tons of heals.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898409#Comment_3898409
I know she’s been bugged for a very long time, and that should absolutely be fixed. QOL updates for her field of view and things like that should also definitely be fixed. After those things it would be nice to see where her kill rates are at, and if she is still under that 60% where the Devs would like her, then she should receive help.
Probably less to do with buffing more blinks or shorter cool downs, but more about making her feel less clunky or intimidating to newer players. The Devs haven’t seemed to make any distinction between her kill rates and their overall goal of kill rates , so I have no way of knowing if they would like her personal kill rate to be the same as the other killers due to the somewhat “broken” potential she has, but I don’t think that just because she has the potential to be as deadly as possible, means she shouldn’t be included in the Devs overall goal of a 60% kill rate unless they want her specifically to have a different one, nor do I think players that play her should simply deal with the bugs or QOL issues just because she’s the strongest thing in the game. Those players deserve the same kind of support the rest of the game gets, regardless if they're playing the strongest thing in the game. In my opinion, of course.
Well i'll give you credit for this, you are the 2nd person i have ever talked to about this that has remained consistent with your beliefs.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898254#Comment_3898254
According to those same stats, Hillbilly was right above doctor and below Nurse, but I do believe that was before he got his buffs.
In any case, if she does have the lowest kill rates, then the lowest kill rate is 55% , which does still mean she wins more than half of her matches on average. I think fixing her bugs and giving some refreshing QOL updates could very well bump up that last 5% so she wins 60% of the time instead of 55%.
So you think nurse should get buffed then?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3898295#Comment_3898295
Removing a bear Trap for feee, Removing condemned for free, cleansing uroborous for free, cleansing contamination for free, STOPPING A CHAIN HUNT FOR FREE, removing drones for free, kicking victor for free.
It's not free. It takes survivor time to do, and the only... *only* advantage survivors have is action economy. That's time not on gens, and it's anything but free.
3 health states. On TOP of iron will and distortion all rolled into a single perk.
Ok so, you have to be talking about OTR here, without saying it. OTR does not give 3 health states, since you are injured off hook and endurance only works once. It also doesn't stop tunneling, since none of those features, even together, stop the killer from following you off of hook.
Your post demonstrates a staggering lack of understanding of game mechanics, tbh. Respectfully, you aren't in a position to try to accuse someone else of not playing the game.
OTR actually will work if you get healed, get chased, get injured, then get hit again, you get endurance. And it lasts 80 seconds. So often good survivors will actually use it "offensively" forcing you to basically hit them 3 times before you can go after your intended target.
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https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/440742/why-is-taking-a-protection-hit-not-a-conspicuous-action
This is why i think that if you SAVE a survivor, it should count as one. For example, if you flashlight save someone, or if you pallet stun to save another survivor, you obviously are not being tunneled, and should be fair game at that point.
As others have already said though, protection hits are harder because it would disable the intended functionality too easily.
What should happen i think is that endurance at least, should not work like it does now, it should disable collision so you can walk through them. That would be a win/win i think, because then it can't be abused to make it easier to tunnel a survivor, and also it disables using these things "offensively" against the killer.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897797#Comment_3897797
I believe the Doctor actually had the lowest in the game, with a kill rate of 51%. Nurse is 55%. Which, if they want a 60% kill rate for every killer, then yeah she would need something to boost that up an extra 5%. But the average kill rate for all killers was 58%.
So while Nurse doesn’t have a 60% kill rate, she still wins more games than she loses, as does doctor, which supports the idea that she is still performing well, which is a good thing.
Other than the last time, she is always the worst, the doctor was only lower because of the AFK bot epidemic that they already acknowledged.
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@ralecgos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897799#Comment_3897799
I can’t tell if you agree with changing Nowhere to Hide or you’re disagreeing here but…
Technically it would be extremely easy to apply this small change (hardly a nerf) to Nowehere to Hide.
They’ve shown us for years that they don’t want to nerf Nurse and Blight in any significant way. There’s hardly a point in requesting that.I think the perk is fine. My point is that we shouldn't nerf a perk because it is good in the hands of 2 killers, 2 killers who are also difficult to play, and who, at average MMR, usually land at the middle to upper middle of the pack in terms of kill rates (in blights case) or as the lowest in the game (in nurses case)
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@XDgamer018 said:
Without going into spoilers its a good game (i pre ordered it myself) it has some performance issues and if bhvr ever does this again there should be some tweaks (mainly in the playback features) but for 16 bucks i would highly recommend it!
How much content is it in terms of play time? I guess, if you finished it, how long did you play it for?
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@ralecgos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897619#Comment_3897619
It’s not my fault that 2 killers and a couple more honorable mentions are so absolutely BUSTED that perks with zero real requirements like Nowhere to Hide are this annoying to go against.
So to answer your question, YES! The perk needs to change to accommodate the busted high mobility killers on the roster that take heavy advantage of this.
Killer mains got Distortion nerfed, so don’t get all bent out of shape when survivors ask for changes to make the game less annoying for us too!
I think its probably easier to nerf 2 killers rather than buff 36 of them because of 1 perk.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897415#Comment_3897415
Yes, these teams do exist, and yes, they are relatively rare (yes, even at "TOP MMR").
I know it's largely a difference of ideology, but I don't get playing like a dripping sweatlord who plays with the hammer down 100% of the time because in 1 or 2/10 games you play you
willmay face a team that will beat you if you don't. Is that level of risk not acceptable? Is winning most of your games not enough? Do you need minimize the chance that you lose at all?IMO that mindset is only really appropriate in actual comp settings.
I mean in public matches there is such a mixed bag of bad SBMM/RNG and perhaps most importantly people playing different styles and with different priorities that taking winning so seriously seems absurd. At best. Yes, the fact that bad game design is largely the reason winning 90%+ of your games is even remotely possible, and that is technically BHVRs doing, but realistically this isn't a serious game, and was never intended to be.
And does winning all of your matches in a game where SBMM doesn't work and conservatively half of all players are either bad or goofing off really mean anything?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897424#Comment_3897424
You know better than that. Nurse's kill rate is lower because her skill floor is higher than others. Not obscenely high, but new Nurses have to eat dirt until they get their arms around her a bit. And lots of brand new killers try her out because they heard she was the best, and they eat the most dirt of all.
But high MMR Nurses are killing machines who need no help from anyone. The bad Nurses pretty much live a the lower levels.
Her numbers are deceptive, and anyone who has been around the block a time or two knows that.
Thats precisely my point.
One of 2 things is true.
Do you balance the game around average level players, or top level players?
If you balance the game around average level players, then you MUST by DEFINITION contend with the fact that the nurse is one of, if not THE lowest kill rate killer in the game.
If you balance the game around high level players, then you MUST by DEFINITION contend with the fact that survivor teams like this DO exist, and do something about it.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897424#Comment_3897424
nah it’s not a game design problem that they don’t give you every basekit gen defense so you can guarantee wins every game. Survivors already lose most of their games. Who the hell wants to sit there and play a game where they are already sentenced to lose. That’s what you want with these changes.
Ok great, i'll be waiting for the nurse buffs that you so desperately think should happen.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897415#Comment_3897415
Yeah that’s a you problem, not a game design problem.
It is a game design problem, if you are in the camp of "its ok because these teams are rare" then you must also believe that nurse needs to be buffed right? Because MOST nurses you go against have her at a below 50% win rate, and she is one of the lowest kill rate killers in the game.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897194#Comment_3897194
I have not seen a killer run 4 gen perks in a long time. You don’t need that much game delay to win most of your games. If every team in every single lobby was team eternal then these changes would be fine. But all this does for 99% of the rest of player base is make the game more miserable and just lead to more losses. Who the hell wants to play a game that they can barely win? Yeah 10 percent escape rate is definitely gonna be awesome
"To win most of your games"
"These teams are rare"
Doesn't matter, these teams exist, so unfortunately if you are playing to win, you have to play like the enemy is eternal, because if you don't, and it turns out they are, you will lose. You have to play hard from the start.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896990#Comment_3896990
basekit corrupt should be the only thing that should be implemented. Every thing else you mention? Yeah no thanks
So they add basekit corrupt and everyone still runs 4 gen defense perks, just corrupt probably isn't one of them, and nothing changes.
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@EliteTertle said:
I've just bought the houndmaster. trying to LEARN this killer right? well every single game is stacked medkits, stacked toolboxes, and map offerings. it just feels so bad man. I'm running some regression, but its never enough. I feel like the only way I could compete with survivors is by instadowning all of them. I like how most good regression perks have been nerfed, but to compensate, base regression, and base generator times have been also nerfed. But I still think with the ease of access to commodus toolboxes, it's too much. generators take forever solo, and it feels boring, but have a friend with prove, deja vu, resiliance, or built to last, they just fly. and all you can do is bring 4 slowdown, and that just sucks to do. I want to get value from other perks. Like I've enjoyed BBQ or Rapid Brutality on Houndmaster. but idk if my Houndmaster just started off with comp team MMR or there's just too many things buffing gen speeds.
This is why i'm an advocate for doing what they do to killer addons. When killer addons feel "required" to play the killer, often times what they do is buff the basekit, then nerf the addons to be the same as they were before the buff, so if you run the addon nothing changes, but if you don't then its not as bad as it used to be without it. So i would be for a blanket proposal like:
- Basekit gen kick set to 10%
- Basekit gen regression set to 0.5 c/s instead of 0.25 c/s
- Basekit corrupt that lasts 60 seconds ends as soon as a chase (or injury) starts instead of a down
- Basekit corrupt on totems that lasts 60 seconds
- Basekit pain resonance-like ability for 10-15% that encourages unique hooks instead of tunneling out
Then go and basically just nerf all the gen defense perks by like half or more, or keep the bad ones as they are. Then we'd see more variety because killers wouldn't have to bring tons of gen defense perks anymore. You could do like:
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896672#Comment_3896672
During the Hex: Thrill of the Hunt meta I explained how some effects apply their modifiers since some people were making posts saying "just use Counter Force" when Counter Force was not a counter. People were throwing out odd numbers with how long it would take so I did some test and some math and calculated that Hex: Thrill of the Hunt specifically would apply before Counter Force, and since Counter Force was a variable % (not a flat %), it would receive a diminished effect from Hex: Thrill of the Hunt slowdown down the action speed first.
Keep in mind, this is not as detailed as it was in the original thread but it an example of an interaction between positive and negative modifiers that does display that negative does go before positive. Here is the original thread if you want a look for yourself:
DBD Math can be really weird, sometimes things you think would apply a certain way just dont, I often tend to record videos of stuff and trim the clips to see the time it took for an action to be completed, this way I can at least work backwards to determine how different perks are applying their values. Sometimes DBD also changes effects, sometimes the way that they apply can be changed when a perk is buffed/nerfed/reworked, which results in the time an action will take being altered by it.
To put it bluntly, stuff like this can be really complicated.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896579#Comment_3896579
The way I put it is a bit weird, so allow me to explain it a bit better.
Typically when you think of multiplicative values in a game, they typically follow everything else so they have the highest potential, DBD is a bit different in the sense that multiplicative values go before additive and variable percent values, this is because multiplicative values are designed specifically to scale off other multiplicative values being present, this is why effects like Call of Brine being stacked with Overcharge were so strong before they were hard nerfed.
DBD uses a lot of multiplicative values for negative modifiers since, as you mentioned, it makes it really difficult to reach an action speed of 0 C/S. But, DBD does have additive and flat modifiers that are negatively applied to action speed, which was my main point, that effects like that do exist. Specifically, the best example of this is how Thantaphobia affects Totem Cleansing Speed, since it actually provides a variable percent amount that happens after multiplicative modifiers (Hex: Thrill of the Hunt) are applied.
I come from the Warframe community, so a lot of what I do is math, spreadsheets, timing things, recording data, etc, it's needed for minmaxing gear, and this is just based on my own test, but I could have very well gotten the math wrong in some areas, I am human and I could have possible made a mistake along the way with my testing.
Like i said, Nothing personal, but i'm going to take word of official statements from devs rather than random people on the internet. The devs have stated that all negative modifiers are multiplicative, and positive modifiers are additive.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896570#Comment_3896570
Again, Im not completely disagreeing, a lot of negative effects are just straight up multiplicative, but some are based on % of the modified amount, again, to provide a diminished effect and prevent action speed from reaching zero. It is based on how the effect is applied, and there are some effects, where if you test it, and check the math, they are not ALL multiplicative, most are, but not all.
IDK HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE TO SAY THIS, but just check ingame through testing or do research to see how it applies, not all effects will apply the same or how you think they would apply.
What you said is the definition of multiplicative.
Let say we look at 2 situations. Gens take 90 seconds, or 90 charges, survivors add 1 c/s.
If i have 2 effects that increase my gen speed by 10% and also by 15%, they add together to 25% and increase my speed to 1.25 c/s, making the gen take 72 seconds.
If i have 2 effects that decrease my gen speed by 10% and also 15%, that are multiplicative and applied stacking. So i start at 1 c/s, reduced by 10% becomes 0.9 c/s reduced by 15% becomes 0.765 c/s Which makes the gen take 117.6 seconds, which is actually about 30% longer.
The reason for this is because lets say they were swapped, and positive effects were multiplicative, and negative effects were additive.
If we had say, 5 effects that increase my gen speed by: 20%, 50%, 10%, 5%. 25%. In an additive world, this increases my gen speed by: 110%, effectively more than doubling my gen speed to 2.1 c/s. But in a multiplicative world, this would be significantly higher at 2.59 c/s which is almost a 160% increase. So its possible for them to quickly stack out of control.
If we had 5 effects that negatively decrease gen speed by the same amounts: 20%, 50%, 10%, 5%, 25% and it were multiplicative, your 1 c/s becomes 0.2565 c/s. But if it were additive, it becomes -10%. So repairing a gen actually unrepairs it at 0.1 c/s. Thus being out of control quickly.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896564#Comment_3896564
Actually no. Rather an effective is positive/negative and flat, percent, or multiplicative is entirely based on how it applies. There are some effects effect descriptions can be misleading as to how they apply, which is why I recommend doing research and using external sources.
This is so that something cant be reduced to 0, or even negative.
Most effects within a game are % based on a modified %, this is the most common modifier to see, these effects normally apply after flat additive/subtractive amounts this way you are only adding/removing a % based on the modified amount which would inherently be smaller.
We have not had math yet that would result in us reaching 0 action speed, but Im sure the developers though of this and put a cap on negative effects on action speed to prevent a situation like such, otherwise I would seriously lose all faith in this game.
The devs have stated what i said to be fact in several places.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
Let me ask you a simple question. If something slows down your speed of an action by 40%, and that action normally takes 90 seconds, how long would it take? Normally you would say "90 x 1.4 is 126, so it would take 126 seconds", you would technically be right, but in terms of DBD match, you wouldnt.
A lot of actions within DBD use a "charge" system to calculate the speed of an action. So for DBD, an action is 1 Charge per Second (often shortened to C/S by the community), with 90 total Charges, making the action at base take 90 seconds.
If an action were to be slowed by 40%, it would not affect the total amount of Charges needed to complete an action, it will always be the 90 Charges that it is presented to be. Instead, the penalty is applied to the C/S. So instead of taking 1 C/S, it will take 0.6 C/S (-40%, or -0.4 from the base). With this in mind, the action would actually take 150 seconds to complete, since that the time it would take 0.6 C/S to reach 90 Charges.
Before calculating, it is also a really good idea to determine if the number you are using is a multiplicative or additive value, this can often be shown through the wording of the effect, but sometimes it is best to do testing in a Custom Game and/or look up that information from other sources (make sure to site your source if you use any, it's a good idea to provide credit!).
Another VERY important factor to understand is that negative modifiers are applied BEFORE positive modifiers, which often can dampen the positive modifiers since they are modifying a small number. This is especially the case for anything that uses a direct % instead of a flat listed amount, since flat listed amounts are not variable of base amount being modified.
- ((((1 C/S x -Multiplicative Value) - Subtractive Value) x +Multiplicative Value) + Additive Value) = Total Charges (-/+ Value).
So uh… yea. Have fun with this obscure knowledge. Go do math, I guess!
Other thing to keep in mind is that negative modifiers are applied multiplicatively, and positive ones additively.
This is so that something can't be reduced to 0, or even negative, and something positive can't exponentially go out of control.
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@Raccoon said:
It's like everyone has Lightweight basekit or something.
They're appearing at weird intervals and I can't track anyone.
It's almost unplayable.
They have been bugged for a while, the PTB has them fixed up pretty nicely though and they are behaving a bit more like they used to.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3895623#Comment_3895623
Diversity in killer builds that are actually decent? That's against the law.
Na, we must continue to force killers to stack multiple slowdown perks then complain about said slowdown perks until they get nerfed while the other ones get buffed because nobody uses them, so then instead of using these 2 slowdown perks the killer now uses these other 2 slowdown perks and nothing actually changes.
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@fixblitzskin said:
housemaster is like wesker + pinhead and from his it looks ken kaneki is like legion + wesker. I hope FNAF is not comparable to anything we have gotten before.
We have 38 killers, soon to be 39. There are only so many things that can be thought of, and with so many killers these days, there will always be some aspect of killers that are similar to each other.
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@Raccoon said:
Haven't seen anyone mention it and there are zero topics about it on the PTB Forum...
:(
I messed around with it a bit. Its going to be pretty nice on m1 killers to counter predropping. But unfortunately like anything else, because those killers need to stack slowdown it probably won't help them much.
I'm just hoping that one day they "nerf the addon and buff the basekit" with these gen defense perks like they do killer addons so we can actually have diverse builds.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3895289#Comment_3895289
That's never been true.
Nurse isn't viable at low skill levels, for example.
I would rather a Killer be fun and enjoyable to play than be S-tier.
Fair enough, i would change my statement to be:
Every killer should be viable in the top 30% of games, in that, every game should be winnable assuming all players in the match are equal skill.In terms of low skill play, there can be things done to make those harder to play killers more approachable without making them stronger. For example in the case of nurse you have things like that addon that shows where you blink. Perhaps a way to make that basekit, or even toggleable in the settings. That would help lower skill players but not really high skill players who have already memorized how she blinks.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3895260#Comment_3895260
I imagine you would not feel the same if the situation were reversed… "Survivors should be able to win any match regardless of the skill of their opponent, a chaotic system is more fun, if a new Survivor perk is massively OP, leave it for a while so they can have fun at others expense"
Killers do not need to all be S-tier Nurse level. Variety is the spice of life, after all, and a bunch of overpowered Killers doesn't sound too fun to play against.
What you will actually find is that strength matters far less than how fun they are to play. For example, Legion isn't very strong, but he's a blast to play.
Its not that "you should always win regardless of skill level" the point is that each killer should be viable at all levels.
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@SpiderChapterASAP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3895159#Comment_3895159
His title is generally talking about killer powers that gets nullified on certain terrain so I'm right.
In 8.5.0 you supposedly fixed the bug where demogorgon, blight, billy would get crounch tech, not power-hit and the fix wouldn't work, I haven't played for a long time... Have you finally fixed it? Since demogorgon crouches on flat terrain and demo's dash is nullified...
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@SpiderChapterASAP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3895102#Comment_3895102
The title is talking about nullifying killers power under certain terrain.
It's strange when its normal for legion to hit the stairs instead of the survivor. why is that even a thing? And it's more strange for Freddy to have a power that does move on elevated levels but others don't.
The thread is talking about crouch tech:
In 8.5.0 you supposedly fixed the bug where demogorgon, blight, billy would get crounch tech, not power-hit and the fix wouldn't work, I haven't played for a long time... Have you finally fixed it? Since demogorgon crouches on flat terrain and demo's dash is nullified...
They even mentioned "crouch tech" and mention 8.5.0 where this was changed…
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@SpiderChapterASAP said:
You forgot to mention Doctor, Pyramid Head and Artist.
I also were playing Legion and Jake walked up the stairs and my power somehow hit the stairs instead of the Jake.
Thats not crouch tech, those are by design. What we are talking about is on a flat surface, when the survivor can crouch to avoid the attack even though it clearly hits them.
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@Th3Nightmare said:
In 8.5.0 you supposedly fixed the bug where demogorgon, blight, billy would get crounch tech, not power-hit and the fix wouldn't work, I haven't played for a long time... Have you finally fixed it? Since demogorgon crouches on flat terrain and demo's dash is nullified...
found it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7j1k99e080&t=210s -
@Th3Nightmare said:
In 8.5.0 you supposedly fixed the bug where demogorgon, blight, billy would get crounch tech, not power-hit and the fix wouldn't work, I haven't played for a long time... Have you finally fixed it? Since demogorgon crouches on flat terrain and demo's dash is nullified...
No, it still happens. There's an otzdarva clip from the PTB where he literally shows someone able to crouch tech demo the same way.
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@Mooks said:
While I know literally less than nothing about Tokyo Ghoul… I am pretty sure the license holders have the highest say here and they agreed to choose Kaneki over the others.. so the owners (and I guess also creators) of these characters think Kaneki is the right pick here..
maybe it’s more to do with recognizability and representing Tokyo Ghoul as a whole.And/or maybe the other killers will be coming as legendary skins for either Kaneki or possibly other original killers!
edit: well Hoodied provided the actual official answer. Not a Fan of this ‚alternative Universe Charakters‘ myself but it is what it is and the owners agreed to it… and the above still appliesWe literally have killers currently who are "not killers" by their nature and don't want to be doing what they are doing. Look into the lore of wraith for example. So it stands to reason that it can happen again.
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@LordGlint said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2IXWLTFDP13Q/screenshot-20250311-120124-reddit.jpg
This should prevent flashbangs from working while my face is practically in a wall.
This is a bug i called out during the release of the unknown. Nice to see its finally getting fixed. Not only did it allow for survivors to get pallet saves when before you could pick up a survivor on 1 side of a pallet to body block the save, but now you can drop flashbangs inside the killer model anymore.
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@MoZo said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GSA3TJJ2NN66/img-4780.jpeg
This is my exhaustion perk tierlist as of 8.5.2, i know the two outliers that will get many peoples attention is DH and bgp being S tier so let me explain my reasoning behind the placements. Dead hard has been and always will be a S tier perk, the fact you can scratch off death just by clicking a button has always been an insane ability that almost no other perk can do. Almost every killer can be dead harded and even then if you use DH at a pallet it is almost uncounterable unless the killer swings the millisecond the endurance runs out. Background player is a little more tricky, solo q its decent but not that useful but in swfs its almost uncounterable. Going down under a pallet while in a swf is one of the most safest things a survivor can do in a swf because it puts the killer in a lose lose situation, either they insta pick up and the person with BGP gets the pallet save or the killer commits to the BGP survivor and the survivor under the pallet could have unbreakable or better yet the BGP user has wglf and loops the killer enough to come back to the slug and insta pick them up. Also the fact that BGP and flashbang is a near uncounterable combo definitely boosts BGP utility. It’s also a great map traversal perk since it only has a 20 second exhaustion to it.
Let me know if you agree, disagree or have questions on my tierlist in the comments!
I'd knock down sprint burst and knock up dramaturgy, dramaturgy is like old dead hard for distance. Background player is good there, but if they ever fix flashbangs, then it would get knocked down a pet or 2.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
What exactly is busted about them that you feel it warrants a nerf? Or whatever it is you're asking.
Its a 1 time addon that might not even do anything depending on the killer. It has the ability to be a playmaker, but so many things need to align if you're not using it in chase. Using it in chase is what makes it powerful imo.
What I am saying tho is that if you play to win you will enter the sweat zone very quickly, and that sweat zone might require some attention.
Attention? Its called moving up in rank. MMR. Whatever the broken thing than can't even be proven to work properly is called anymore. Sweat and these things are the end game. You've beaten the pubs and now you're getting decent gamers.
Not jabbing, but I gotta ask. What attention? You come upon some syringes and think it merits a thread? I mean, alright.
Syringes are a tool thats doing well. Not over-performing imo. But if you feel like they are, please discuss more. Thoughts on changes, problem areas, etc. I'd love to delve into it.
Its that you can use one, then start working a gen. You get the benefit of the medkit, without the slowdown from it. Pretty significant.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894180#Comment_3894180
You've got it backwards. The topic is not about MMR or Nurse, it's you who brought these topics in. You brought these topics in, because you know that your initial claim of "50% winrate" is dishonest, and now you'd rather talk about MMR or other vague stuff.
But allow me to insist.
Simple question: do you think a 50% - 37% winrate is balanced yes or no?
And do you think it was honest to present this information as "Killers have a winrate of 50%", omitting the 37% of survivors?
No the claim was about it be survivor sided vs killer sided. I said that at the highest levels of play the game is massively survivor sided.
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@MoZo said:
We’re coming up on 1 year since the nerf done to adrenaline last year and I was curious on what others thoughts on it are. I still hate the nerf that took away the “adrenaline off hook” since it made the perk way more swf friendly rather than a balance between all roles. I understand why it had to go because it put killers in a lose lose situation. The speed nerf and Freddy interaction with it was completely fine and an understandable nerf. I wish they would bring back adrenaline being on hold if you’re disabled because it feels horrible when you go down right before the last gen pops or if you’re solo q on hook and your teammate pops the last gen before you get unhooked.
It being on hold made it literally a free escape in endgame.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894043#Comment_3894043
"Unofficial" stats? The table comes from the same page you quoted.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2I7FDI7S3SYC/image.png
It is LITERALLY BELOW your graph…
For some reason i thought the numbers looked different. Either way, the point still stands, care to respond to everything else in that post that mattered instead of strawmanning? My argument doesn't hinge on that data being official or not, it was mostly an off comment.
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@MoZo said:
These two have been the top S tier killers for what feels like forever. We’re going on 5 years straight now. If the devs don’t want to significantly nerf their basekit to tone them down can they at least give them a longer cooldown? Blight should have a 14-15 second cooldown instead of 10 and nurse should have 5-6 second recharge per blink rather than 3. It blows my mind that nurse gets a 6 second cd and other killers have a significantly longer cooldown on their power.
Do you think the game should be balanced around the highest skill level players, or the average skill level player?
If you think the game should be balanced around the highest skill level players, then sure, nurse and maybe blight is too strong and needs a nerf. But then you also have to contend with the fact that nearly every other killer on the roster needs massive buffs, or survivors as a whole need nerfs. There's a reason that comp heavily restricts what survivors can bring, and why each killer typically gets to play on their best map.
If you think the game should be balanced around average level players, then nurse and blight are fine, because they are often in the middle or even below the middle of the pack. In the case of nurse she's often the lowest kill rate killer in the game, so if anything, with that mindset, she needs buffs.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893709#Comment_3893709
At high MMR: almost certainly Blight & Nurse. At average MMR, probably Onryo.
I have a draft about this topic, never published it.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XQ4Y8T9HVTFA/image.png
And yes I know you were going to say "Nurse is the worst killer statistically" because of her 53% and yes she is the worst killer FOR THE AVERAGE PLAYER, which aligns well with the fact she's harder to play than other killers especially for console players. At high MMR, she has a statistically outstanding pickrate combined with higher than average winrate.
I don't know where you got these stats from because they certainly don't look official, but the OFFICIAL stats from BHVR usually show nurse being the lowest kill rate or one of the lowest in the game. When looking at high MMR she's usually in the bottom half to middle of the pack:
These are the "top MMR" for example from BHVR.
Now, as a nurse main with 4k+ hours, i agree, she is by far the best killer in the game, its pretty obvious and no contest really.
So my point i'm making here, is i think that what is ACTUALLY high MMR and what BHVR SAYS is high MMR are very different things. I suspect that when BHVR releases stats and they talk about "High MMR" they are talking about the highest MMR "bracket" in terms of matchmaking.
Are you aware of how MMR works and how matchmaking in general works? I suspect not, but that's ok. Through some people looking into this matter we have a pretty good idea of how MMR works.
MMR is broken up into 4 "brackets" you have the low bracket, the lower mid bracket, the upper mid bracket and the top bracket. I don't know off hand the level of MMR in each bracket below the top, but i do know one thing. The top bracket is 1400+ MMR.
Now, MMR systems typically use Glicko which is just a derivation of Elo. I play chess, a lot. And my current blitz rating in chess is 1428 as of writing this. This is my rating after playing around 10,000 games, so its probably pretty decently representative of my current skill level. In an average elo distrubution, this puts me around the top 15% of players. Pretty good right? Well, not really. You see, here is a graph of the distribution of those ratings:
Now again, looks pretty good right? Well, the problem here is that anyone in the 1400+ MMR bracket in DBD, can be matched together. So now imagine me playing a game with say Magnus Carlsen, best chess player in the world. If i played him 100 times, he would probably win 100 times. After a few thousand games, maybe i get lucky once and he was drunk and i land a draw.
The point i'm ultimately making here. Is you should not look at the stats BHVR releases as "high mmr" and take that as what people actually think "high MMR" is. When people say "at the highest levels of play" i'm talking chess grandmaster level of play. The top of the top players in the world. I'm talking about the titled level chess players, of which there are around 20,000, in a total pool of around 8 MILLION rated players. The TOP MMR.
So again, i reiterate my point.
- At the lowest skill levels, DBD is massively killer sided
- At the below average skill levels, DBD is slightly killer sided
- At average skill levels, DBD is evenly balanced
- At the above average skill levels, DBD is slightly survivor sided.
- At the highest skill levels, DBD is massively survivor sided.
When i talk about these things i'm talking about people who are world class, like thousands upon thousands, tens of thousands even, of hours playing the game.
Go take a look at comp level play, and look at the rulesets they have in place. If the killer is not player nurse, they generally have very few restrictions on killers (outside of obvious stuff like myers mori addon). And if you are playing pretty much every other killer, they have MASSIVE restrictions of what survivors can bring, what map is played and so on. And they do this for a reason. Almost every ruleset is in place to make the game more favorable for the killer, by putting them on their best map, and heavily restricting survivors. And they do this for a reason.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893546#Comment_3893546
At highest levels of play, this game is blatently survivor sided
- If the game was blatantly survivor-sided at high level then there wouldn't be people who achieve a 2000 winstreak on Blight, 1000 on Nurse, 800 on twins, 600 on Onryo, while the longest survivor streak is only around 300.
- If the game was blatantly survivor-sided at high level then Otzdarva's No Limits tournament would have ended up with killers getting destroyed. Yet killers still won 60% (link).
- If the game was blatantly survivor-sided at high level, then BHVR also wouldn't share this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QK9KIR59X7TK/image.png
You're also assuming that I'm against the 60% killrate philosophy, but I'm not even saying that, I just say we need to be honest about the facts. Personally I think killrate is a rather low-priority thing to focus on and there are much more important issues in this game than balance, like the unfun gameplay mechanics, hook suicides, and technical issues.
Let me ask you a question.
Which killer is the best in the game?
- If the game was blatantly survivor-sided at high level then there wouldn't be people who achieve a 2000 winstreak on Blight, 1000 on Nurse, 800 on twins, 600 on Onryo, while the longest survivor streak is only around 300.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893445#Comment_3893445
The devs balance the game around a 60% kill rate, which, when factoring in hatch, amounts to around a 50% win rate for killers.
Wrong and Wrong.
Killers win 50%, but survivors win only 37%, so this is imbalanced (the rest is draws). Presenting this as "50% winrate for killer" without presenting 35% for survivors is pure manipulation and you know it because I've already quoted you several times.
Second, hatch escapes increase the winrate, not the other way around. Because a hatch is a win for killer, even though it's 0 kill.
Again, you are looking at things in a vacuum. At highest levels of play, this game is blatently survivor sided, and at lower levels its killer sided. There are far more bad players than good ones. Which is what skews it heavily.
But again, if you don't like the 60% kill rate, thats something to take up with the devs. That is their desire to balance for a 60% kill rate. If you don't like it, complain to them, not to me.
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@kaoraku said:
Honestly I do not understand why should anybody say GG without a reason. GG means Good Game. If it is not, then why say it anybody?
But yeah, that mate has some problems…
Same reason that opposing teams shake hands after a football game. Its good sportsmanship.
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@dbd900bach said:
I wasn't sure how to really phrase it, but after seeing a lot of the comments on the health update patch notes, there was quite a few people who generalized the post to killers got buffed and survivors got nothing. The game is killer sided, the devs favor killer. The killer role is separate from individual killers and most changes were individual character changes.
So, if an individual killer gets buffed, that buff has nothing to do with other killers and going off these patch notes alone, the killer role as a whole caught nerfs in the form of mending being shortened. All killers can inflict deep wound either naturally through their power, their add-ons or as a result of the survivors perks.
Yet, they're so quick to generalize and ignore what the changes actually mean. All killers are unique, but survivors are not. Every single survivors has the same stats and have access to the same perks, so when individual killers get buff, they somehow expect their entire role to get something in return when it's the killer role that got nerfed.
Tangent, yes. Makes sense, I don't know. I'm personally just tired of people generalizing and criticizing when they even try to understand what they're reading and make comments based on their first instinctive emotion. Do I fully understand? Maybe I don't, but at least I'm trying.
The game is not blanketly "killer sided"
The devs balance the game around a 60% kill rate, which, when factoring in hatch, amounts to around a 50% win rate for killers.
The other thing to keep in mind is that balance is at a scale. Most people would agree that at the lowest levels of play, like when you first start playing, the game is massively killer sided. I remember when i first started playing with my friends, we were lucky if we ever got a single generator done in our matches before we were all killed, and this was back in the days when real infinites existed so it should have been easy for us.
Once you move on to the "average skill level" the game starts to even out and become a bit more evenly balanced.
Then once you move onto the highest levels of skill the game shifts back over to survivor sided. There is a reason that comp for example has to heavily restrict survivors and do a ton of scoring systems and such to make the game more fair for killers for example.
Then you have SWF which also complicates it a bit, again at lower levels it probably doesn't make much of a difference, but as you climb the ranks of skill, discord suddenly becomes a massive advantage that you have over your solo queue counterparts.
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@Firellius said:
I think the obsession aspect of it was changed to prevent killers from knowing if someone had DS. Now it makes you the obsession after DS triggers.
No, the part that was changed a while back was to make it so there was ALWAYS an obsession. The way these work is listed here:
DS increases your chances to be obsession by 100%, so it should always make you obsession.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3893013#Comment_3893013
I mean its just math. Basically, the game is not actually designed around a 1v4, in terms of MMR anyway, its actually 4 1v1s. And the devs are balancing the game around killers winning 50% of their matches.
So, if we write a simple python script to simulate game results assuming a 60% kill rate with say, 1,000,000 games? We end up with something like this:
https://gist.github.com/Reinami/abbc3f0ad878bbfd0acf4b4ea9f44501
Basically, we are simulating 1 million matches, and rolling the dice for each survivor saying they have a 40% chance of escaping, and a 60% chance of being killed in this script. And doing that 1 million times and printing out the results.
This is what our result will be roughly (obviously slightly different each time but over a million matches its pretty much the same every time):
Killer wins: 474744 [0.474744%]
Survivor wins: 178979 [0.178979%]
Draws: 346277 [0.346277%]
Total Kills: 2400181
Total Escapes: 1599819
Total Possible Kills: 4000000
Kill Rate: 0.60004525So basically, with a 60% kill rate, the killer wins about 47% of the time, survivors as a team win about 18% of the time, and about 35% of the time its a draw.
This initially seems unfair to survivors, but that's again, because you are looking at it from the point of view of a 1v4, when again, for mmr purposes, its actually 4 1v1s. So when you look at a draw, its a "draw" for the team, but the reality is, 2 survivors won, and 2 survivors lost. When you look at it from that perspective, the results show in total_escapes as being a 40% "win rate" for survivors (our 60% kill rate). But, the killer "wins" 47% of the total games.
It is a bit confusing, but basically, a 60% kill rate, means that the killer wins 47% of the time.
Now if you take the same script, and punch in a 50% kill rate, these are the results you get:
Killer wins: 312844 [0.312844%]
Survivor wins: 312156 [0.312156%]
Draws: 375000 [0.375%]
Total Kills: 2000955
Total Escapes: 1999045
Total Possible Kills: 4000000
Kill Rate: 0.50023875As expected you get a roughly 1/3 split between killer win, survivor win, and draw. But you can see that the killer only wins 31% of the time. But, because a draw is still 2 survivors "winning" and 2 survivors "losing" there are significantly more games where a survivor "wins".
Now, keep in mind that this is looking at a simple roll of the dice. I think we can all agree that, statistically speaking, every kill a killer gets, the probability that they get ANOTHER kill increases. For example, if the killer gets a single kill, then it is more likely they will get a second, and if they get a second, its more likely they get a 3rd. What this means is that in reality, what you see is probably lots of matches where 3-4 survivors escape, and lots of matches where 3-4 survivors are killed, and less matches where 2 survivors escape. That isn't really possible to factor in without knowing the data BHVR has, but its likely enough of a factor that it changes the results here a bit as well.
Id also imagine SWF factors into this a bit as well, but again, without data directly from BHVR its hard to tell.
Then of course there is the hatch, which also comes into play here where a survivor escapes even though they still lost.
When you factor these in, it makes sense that you'd want to balance for a 60% kill rate, rather than a 50% kill rate, as the likely leads to matches being more even.
EDIT:
If you actually add a simulation of a 50/50 hatch, and then if the killer closes a 50/50 of which gate they get out of, this actually lowers the kill rate by about 2.5% without changing the wins/losses either.
I'm less familiar with statistics and probability, but i threw this into Chat GPT and it explained the actual probability formulas and came out to about the same results.
So, if we define:
- Loss as 0-1 kills (approximately 17.92% chance),
- Draw as exactly 2 kills (approximately 34.56% chance), and
- Win as 3-4 kills (approximately 47.52% chance),
the win rate is about 47.5%, which is just under 50%.
In summary, using a 60% kill rate under these conditions results in roughly a 47.5% win rate, not exactly 50%.