Reinami
Reinami
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- Reinami
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@Rogue11 said:
Weird how the top 3 killer perks are some of those useless slowdown perks. Surge, Grim, DMS, and Deadlock all in the top 15 too.
Nightlight is not a reliable source of this information for 1, and for 2, the meta shift is currently in progress, it isn't finished. Remember when dead hard started off at 10% usage until over time it became nearly 50% usage?
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@Adam_Francis_Main said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885966#Comment_3885966
Major nerf to m1 killers
The point is we shouldn't be balancing killers around tunneling being the way they do things. We would then be able to buff said killers to be able to perform well while actually doing the things that are fun.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885954#Comment_3885954
Sounds like Last Year. when you respawned you would be in a locked room where a teammate would have to come let you out.
Basically the way i would do it is.
- Killer hooks a survivor
- Survivor is unhooked
- They get this buff that makes it so they can't be hurt by the killer in any way, but they can't do anything like totems or gens or anything. Probably make them even invisible to the killer, no collision, etc.
- After 32 seconds, that buff expires, and the survivor is fully healed and now able to interact with the game.
Basically, these doesn't lose total time for the survivors, because to heal a survivor who is just unhooked, both survivors have to interact for 16 seconds which is a total of 32 seconds . But now, you basically automate that healing interaction, kinda like the medkit addons for example. But during that time, you know the survivor can't be working a gen. So the survivor who unhooks, can just run back to a gen and not "waste" time healing.
So the total time spent off a gen is still the same, but its all put on that 1 survivor, and it is forced. This also prevents them from "tunneling gens" by just ignoring healing for example.
I'd also throw in reworking the AFC mechanic, to just teleport the survivor on the hook to the hook that is closest to the survivor that is furthest away from the killer. Similar to PH/2v8 cages. That way if it happens that survivor should almost always have enough time to unhook them before the killer can come after them again, thus rendering them invulnerable for that 32 seconds.
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@MaddieMage said:
I’ve been saying that they cannot truly buff killers until they do away with tunneling and camping. No matter how many carrots or incentives they try to offer killers not to do those things, there still going to happen. There are far too many of their killer player base that don’t want an actual challenge in this game nor do they care about gaining skill, but rather they just want easy wins. As long as zero skill mechanics that don’t require perks or add-ons to be effective, like tunneling and camping remain in the game, nothing they offer is going to deter it but rather they’re just adding to their ability to tunnel and camp more by giving buffs on top of it.
If they’re going to penalize tunneling and camping and making it no longer effective for the killer to do, then they should also balance that by giving killers buffs. If they’re not gonna penalize tunneling it and make them far less effective then they may as well keep things where they are and give survivors more ways to avoid it.
I still think they should implement a system by which they fix both at the same time.
Put survivors on a "time out" where they cannot be tunneled by the killer, as in, it is impossible to do so, but at the same time they can't progress the game for that same amount of time, then at the end, just let them be automatically healed. This ensures that when you get a hook, you not only get the pressure of them being on a hook and needed to be saved, but you now know that for some amount of time, that survivor can't do anything useful. Its a win/win. The killer is actively encouraged for hooking them, and actively rewarded for not tunneling them (as in, its basically impossible to do so).
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885906#Comment_3885906
Survivor spawn adjustments.
That's the thing that'll stop you losing 3 gens in the first chase unless you really get outplayed. Survivors not being able to spawn all spread out like that is a huge boon for the average killer early game.
I do agree that if they force survivors to always spawn together, that will be solid, it always sucks when you see yourself spawning in the middle of the map because you just know all 4 survivors are in 4 corners of the map.
But i think the biggest issue there is the swing 1 way or another. That first 90 seconds of gameplay is the most important part of the game, and will likely dictate how the entire match plays out. And this is for both sides. I don't think it should work that way. There should be a more natural ebb and flow of the match where you aren't always sure who is going to win right away.
I think even just a basekit corrupt that lasts 30 seconds and maybe doing something with hexes to prevent survivors from finding them instantly (maybe a basekit corrupt on totems for 30 seconds? or hexes don't actually light up for the first x seconds?) would be a good start to the early game. While doing something to give survivors a little more power when they are near the end of the game
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@I_CAME said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885715#Comment_3885715
I think they've just reached a point where they realized that catering to a minority of sweaty players who predominantly play one side isn't the best way to make the game more popular. It's likely the massive license they have coming up is what sparked these changes. Things like tunneling, slugging, etc are a huge turn off for new players. If little Jimmy who mains Blight can't get a 500 win streak as easily because tunneling is slightly weaker then that's just too bad for him. I can't imagine being a new player right now. First game you get hard tunneled out by a Blight. Second game your teammate gives up because he was the first one down. Third game you get bled out by a Wraith. The depressing thing about current DBD is this isn't even an unrealistic scenario.
But they fail to address little timmy survivor main playing with his 3 friends and doing the same thing.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
everything else in health updates is a huge W, but when you reach points of anti-slugging, anti-camping and anti-tunneling without the slightest mention of finally making hooking/spreading hooks again is very concerning.
For anti-camping, i severely hope it's something like giving teammates info on anti-facecamp progress and/or basekit Kindred and nothing else, because camping is perfectly counterable atm.
For anti-slugging, i hope we will just see bleeding out and Knock Out being addressed, because anything more will result in killers like Oni, Plague and Twins getting heavily impacted by game design and will generally fail to address why slugging is a thing in general.
For anti-tunneling, really? With current anti-tunneling perks state tunneling is close to impossible if teams has at least some gamesense, any further punishment for tunneling is simply rewarding refusal to counter it.
Yeah, in concept i agree with everything, but am worried as its all "anti-killer does thing" and not "lets encourage killer to do the thing"
Where is my "anti-gen rush" and "anti-first survivor predrops pallets and i lose 3 gens in the first chase every game?"
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Bro must have a sick gaming chair.
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@XtremeDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/438631/anyone-saw-the-2v8-notice
Cool, i guess. Bots aren't really the problem though with 2v8, its the lack of mmr
Its not that MMR is lacking, its that it takes so long to find a match that MMR spreads it out more and more to find players so by the time you get the match MMR is doing nothing.
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@Foxtrick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3884104#Comment_3884104
I'm Sorry but how often do you play survivor?
If you played survivor more consistently, your opinion would be different
That's solo queue. When you play high MMR is killer you start getting a different kind of survivor.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882654#Comment_3882654
I've argued this for years. If the top level of your game is not balanced, like at all, how could the rest of it possibly be balanced? And so, it isn't. The only thing that stops killers from getting wrecked every single match is that survivors don't capitalize on everything they're given, or they make huge blunders, or occasionally they just get extremely unlucky.
A killer's absence or extreme rarity in tourney and high level probably means they're not any good. And in tourney, survivors have all these restrictions put on them, and they still get wins constantly. So I'm not convinced when all these people say, "You're just not good at killer, and haven't unlocked their full potential." or something along those lines. Because to me, the history of DBD is a history of killers nerfs. The most egregious examples of unhealthy things in the game that were nerfed were on the survivor side. Instaheals that took you from on the ground to healthy, BNP instantly completing gens, infinite loops, pallets and strong tiles linked every 5 feet, gigantic maps, exhaustion perks that worked while you're exhausted, free stuns on the killer with DS, Endurance after taking 2 hits with Mettle, etc. What did killers have that was so strong they needed nerfing? Stuff that slowed gens down, gave killers agency in chase instead of the survivor, add-ons that gave a decent effect, info perks, M1 killers, kicking gens, etc. It's not even close.
Even just ignoring the argument of which side has had it worse, there's still people arguing for very casual balance changes. And that's an oxymoron; you don't balance for casuals. Yet here we are. People are convinced that mere info is what causes 1 side to win or lose. On the killer's lack of an individual hook counter, I'd agree. I hate having to use coins, out of game, to track who I've hooked and who I haven't. But I'm not gonna blame survivors using Windows for why I lost, or blame the killer using aura perks for why I lose as survivor. Information is only as useful as the ability the player has to capitalize on it. Good survivors don't care if they're seen by aura, because they'll just loop you. Good killers don't care either, because the check spots at loops let you see and outmaneuver them anyway. And yet these things are a lot of what see being complained about.
So I may be wrong. Maybe people are onto something, saying we should balance around casuals. It's a revolutionary idea, I'll say. But what we have now, which is a game state that virtually everyone disapproves of, is a direct result of balancing like that.
Nobody has ever been able to point to me any other multiplayer game that is balanced around "average" level players. And when i do ask about it, the answer is "because asymmetrical games" but they fail to explain what makes asym games so special that you suddenly completely change the fundamentals of game design to balance them differently. The other argument is "its a party game" to which i have yet to have anyone explain to me any other "party game" that uses MMR to match players together. I very much doubt mario party is doing that behind the scenes.
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@Unequalmitten86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882590#Comment_3882590
I disagree with this. It shouldn't be balanced by a small percentage of players. They should balance it around a medium high. They should also bring back comp and restriction of perks for that.
You always balance around what the highest skilled players are capable of while keeping in mind low level play. Doing it this way, a given "thing" can have 5 states of being:
Note: You can also have slight variations like "its underpowered in low level play but balanced in high level play" but in general most things will fall under these categories and for simplicity sake we can tackle these.
- It is perfectly balanced for all levels of play
- In this case, the thing is fine, do nothing
- It is underpowered in all levels of play
- In this case, the thing needs to buffed, simply buff it.
- It is overpowered in all levels of play
- In this case, the thing needs to be nerfed, simply nerf it
Where it gets interesting is here
- It is overpowered in low level play, and underpowered in high level play
- In this case, it is a candidate for a rework. Likely the mechanic or thing is difficult for lower level players to understand, and too weak when you understand it. The key here would be to simplify the thing or mechanic while also buffing it.
- It is underpowered in low level play, and overpowered in high level play
- Similar to the above, it is likely that the thing is too difficult to use in low level play and needs to be made easier, while also nerfing the thing.
There's also some nuance there.
For example, if something is overpowered in low level play, and underpowered in high level play, you can probably safely buff the thing in the meantime and simply make it more difficult through simple number tweaks while you go about reworking the thing.
Conversely If something is underpowered in low level play, and overpowered in high level play, then it probably is safe to nerf it, because if the low level players already aren't using it to its full effectiveness, it isn't going to hurt them to nerf it since they already aren't really doing it.
One of my favorite videos explains this, and i link it frequently so if you have seen me you might have seen it. But the logic does apply to DBD here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=3m23s - It is perfectly balanced for all levels of play
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882998#Comment_3882998
Because you dont need knockout to slug.
SMH the posters head.
Do you play dbd at all? This is a serious question.I really feel like you are being extremely hostile for no reason, so at this point i'm going to disengage. If you'd like to have a discussion around this topic i would be happy to do so, otherwise good luck out there!
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882778#Comment_3882778
So false and if it were the case pain res wouldnt be the most picked perk by a factor of 2.
Along with every other killer HOOK perk being at the top of pick rate.Get this garbage false opinion outta here
You should read my other post where i list out everything pretty clearly. But no need to be so hostile. It is true that pain res is a highly picked perk, but we are currently in the middle of a meta shift.
For example, if slugging is such a huge problem and so prevalent then why isn't knockout a highly used perk? Because the meta shift has fully happened yet, but it is happening currently and immanent.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882839#Comment_3882839
Legion is miserable AF to go against no matter what mode it is. Hit and run is the most boring playstyle and it’s what Legion specializes in. You may enjoy playing as Legion, and that’s fine, but also realize that a lot of players including myself find Legion one of the most boring and miserable killers to play against
IDK what survivors want at this point because:
- Anti-loop killers are boring
- Macro gameplay killers are boring
- Hit and run killers are boring.
Here's a question, what killers ARE fun to go against then? Because based on complaints as far as i can see, there is pretty much no killer that is "fun"
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@OhSoSorrowful said:
I played against this guy and commented on his steam profile. since this he has gotten three of his friends to come on my profile and spam me with comments, some being sexual and making me uncomfortable. just want to know if there’s a way i can report them in game so other players don’t have to deal with it. i have already reported on steam
That sounds like it has less to do with DBD and more to do with steam. Steam support works through the actual steam client i believe which it sounds like you already used.
But BHVR support is here: https://support.deadbydaylight.com/hc/en-us
Not sure what good it will do though as i think their reporting here requires you to do an in-game report as well.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882854#Comment_3882854
I do play killer. That's the perspective all of this is coming from.
As a quick correction, I said DS is not JUST a hook perk. It's a perk that you can hook and guarantee you'll never see because it actually activates on something else that includes hooking.
Like i said, good luck to you.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882837#Comment_3882837
Okay, I'm gonna tackle the big list of perks last, since I think it's best to get some of my other points out of the way first. I'm also going to keep a numbered list but the list won't necessarily correlate one to one with the order of your points, just to ensure nobody's confused here.
1: So, point one is tied to your point one: It's not about whether or not I "like" the basekit BT or the AFC system, nor whether they exist to counter unfun gameplay or not. The point is that they do not activate JUST from hooking. They activate (or are relevant, in the case of BT) for their own distinct situations that just involve the hook.
If you hook someone, but you're across the map when they're unhooked because you left straight away to get into another chase, then neither of these systems activate. It's not that these systems make hooking weaker, it's that they make tunnelling and camping respectively weaker. You don't actually have to do those things just because you decided to engage with the basic mechanic of hooking people so they genuinely do not count when it comes to talking about hooking being weak and slugging being necessary.
2: When I talk about hook perks being buffed, the point isn't really how good they are. Furtive Chase is like… fine? It has some pretty viable builds, it's pretty middle of the road as far as strength goes, but that isn't the point- the point is that the narrative of hook perks only ever being nerfed into the ground doesn't really bear out, and also that hook perks aren't required for hooks to give value.
Pain Res, Grim Embrace, and DMS are all still very strong, not even just perfectly good. The nerf that Grim Embrace got in particular was so minuscule that I legitimately forgot it happened. Sure, yes, in a vacuum, these perks did in fact get negative changes… that did not significantly move the needle on how good they are. Hell, DMS is arguably quite a bit better depending on how you use it because that wasn't a nerf, it was a sidegrade/rework, that's why I didn't initially include it.
Surge and Ruin aren't hook perks.
3: I want to talk about the hook timer for a second here, next. I always find it baffling that people are so quick to say that teams will leave people on the hook for as long as possible to maximise generator repair as a reason that the hook timer hurts the killer, because… what are you doing during that time?
If you get a down before they try to leave their gen, then you're pushing the team onto the back foot and forcing them to reset over and over, because multiple people are threatened at once. It's kind of the best situation you can be in as killer because there's basically no downtime between cycles of occupying three survivors at once.
4: Leading on from the last point, I also want to point out that your calculation about losing generators misses something extremely vital, which is that even if you lose three gens in the first chase, getting a hook slows down the remaining two because not everyone can be on gens if you're occupying one while another is on the hook and a third has to go save.
Obviously, you can have bad matches where you struggle to get work done, that's fairly normal in an online game. In general, though, gens only fly when survivors aren't occupied, and hooks are the best way of occupying them. I'd even support some changes that help out a killer's early game if it's done right, but that's a little outside the scope of this conversation- that's not exactly changed recently, it's always been how the game is for killers. It has no bearing on how good hooks are right now in the current state of the game.
5: Alright, let's look at that list of perks.
So, right off the bat, we're still including perks here that aren't just hook related. Babysitter, Blood Rush, Borrowed Time, Camaraderie, Decisive Strike, Reassurance and Shoulder the Burden do not belong on this list, they do not activate just from the hook- if you can hook someone, play completely normally, and never see the perk, it's just bloating out this list without actually being relevant to the conversation.
Some of these perks are also stretching extremely hard. I think the most egregious example is Aftercare- not only is that perk not exactly frightening for the killer, but you also counter that perk by hooking the user. That perk could not have that downside and still be completely fine from the killer perspective, mind you, but in the current state of the game, it's particularly out of place in this conversation.
The fact remains that the vast majority of these aren't things the killer needs to try and avoid. If the survivor has, I don't know, Kindred, Resurgence, Boil Over (outside of unhookable builds, at least) and Wicked… who cares? Sure, those effects are pretty good, I even run some of those perks myself when I play survivor, but I can't say I've had many games where I've looked at the perks in the end screen and thought "Damn, I lost that match because they had Kindred".
I do also feel the need to point out, these things aren't really new. There's a couple new ones, StB and the new Blood Rush effect happened fairly recently, but by and large most of these things have been in the game in some form for years. There's been no huge shift that would make all of these things substantially more problematic now than they would've been before, so the idea that hooking isn't worth it still doesn't make any sense to me.
At this point, saying DS is not a "hook perk" there's no point in having a discussion at because you just live in a different reality. I suggest watching that video and try and have a little empathy here for killer players. Really try, go watch some games from killer streamers, go play killer for a while and really see how it feels. Because without that empathy there really isn't any point in continuing this discussion.
All i'll say at this point is, i hope you consume a little bit of content, try playing killer and just have a little empathy for your fellow player and good luck to you.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882794#Comment_3882794
Not gonna watch a video, sorry, but I'll look at that list for sure. Going point by point-
1: So, this is the big one that I always take issue with. There's very little in the game that the devs have buffed which takes effect JUST from hooking/unhooking. You specify basekit here, which means there's nothing that affects the killer without them playing into it- everything that does take effect JUST from hooking is a perk.
2: See the first point, again. How many of them ACTUALLY revolve around hooking/unhooking on its own, and how many of them ALSO require the killer to try and chase the person who was just unhooked, or stick around the hook to force stage progression? The ones that are left after that point are also hardly so overwhelmingly powerful you need to avoid them at all costs. Something like, say, Resurgence is a damn good perk, but you as a killer don't need to be afraid of it.
3: When it comes to killer perks, I'm a little more sympathetic, but I am also kinda forced to ask… which ones? Basically just Pop and Pain Res, right? Other hook-related perks have even been buffed, stuff like Furtive Chase- albeit that was a while ago now. It's only two hook related killer perks that were nerfed, one of them is still the strongest killer perk in the game by a wide margin, and neither of them are necessary for the default value you get out of hooking someone.
4: The hook timer increase is a placebo. It's not affecting your ability to generate pressure after a hook, and if it is affecting that, it's affecting it positively because it could push survivors to stick on their gens for longer. All it takes is for you to get an unexpectedly early down and you're coming out ahead in that exchange, not them.
5: On this one, we will have a subjective disagreement, I think. In my opinion, the anti-slug perks are way more powerful at their job than the anti-tunnel perks, they just require more teamwork and aren't as popular. Not that it matters- just don't tunnel and there are in fact zero anti-tunnel perks actually affecting you outside of the occasional bodyblock.
6: Generator speeds in relation to catching survivors isn't really that big of an issue right now, and it's strange to bring that up in relation to hooking not being worth it- getting a hook is how you slow down the generators, by forcing survivor reactions.
7: Flashlight saves are counterable 99.9% of the time.
8: Pallet saves can be a little more dangerous, but all you need to do is push whoever's loitering far enough away and they can't get back in time to get the save. Hardly reason enough on its own to avoid hooking altogether even if it's actually a present risk.
9: Like the last point, flashbangs can be kind of annoying, especially when they're bugged (though that does seem to be fixed now), but once you're hit once you know to expect it and the risk lessens severely.
10 & 11: There are more than enough hooks for a sabotage or bodyblock to not actually impede you that much nine times out of ten, but also, you can just drop that survivor when it becomes apparent you can't hook them. That's a massively different situation than hooking itself being weak.
12: Slugging being as good as hooking doesn't mean hooking is weak. I do disagree on this point, though, hooking gives a sharper time pressure, fully immobilises the survivor, and directly progresses your objective much quicker as a healthy survivor on deathhook is a lot more vulnerable than a healthy survivor on the last minute of their bleedout timer, so it is better than slugging even disregarding perks.
13: Twenty seconds is a pretty severe estimate, there are plenty of times it takes me about five. Besides, you make up for that with the extra pressure you get from the hook.
14: Subjective point and doesn't mean anything about the strength of hooking even if it were objective.
We've only got a few things on this list that are even worth talking about, and their impact on the strength of hooking is both pretty low and hasn't substantially changed for pretty much the game's whole lifespan. Some stuff like sabotaging even got weaker over recent years.
I can sympathise with some things on this list being annoying to deal with, especially if you get people trying it back to back, but they aren't actually balance related. That's just subjectively annoying game experiences. If slugging were made riskier, you wouldn't actually be forced into a bad situation, you'd just be going back to the thing that's been perfectly good this whole time.
The fact that you mention furtive chase as a perk shows me exactly what i need to know. That perk is horrible. But yes, pop, pain res, grim embrace, dead mans switch, ruin is still horrible, surge is still bad. And so on. But lets run through the responses here.
- Basekit BT, Anti face camp, yes they are addressing "unfun gameplay" but they still factor in regardless of whether you like it or not.
- The list is much larger than you realize, wouldn't i be a fool to not attempt to counter something i will see in nearly every single game? But i'll list them off from the video
- The perks themselves
- Aftercare
- Babysitter
- Background player
- Bloodrush
- Boil Over
- Borrowed time
- Deliverance
- Breakout
- Cameraderie
- Dead hard
- Decisive Strike
- Deliverance
- Fast track
- Flashbang
- Flip flop
- Kindred
- No one left behind
- Off the record
- Power struggle
- Reassurance
- Resurgence
- SAboteur
- Second wind
- Shoulder the burden
- Slippery meat
- We'll make it
- Wicked
- Then if you look at the ones you see every few games
- Background player
- Boil over
- Deliverance
- Flipflop
- Powerstruggle
- Reassurance
- Resurgence
- We'll make it
- Then there is the pure meta ones you see in literally every single game
- Dead hard
- Decisive Strike
- Flashbang
- Off the reocord
- Shoulder the Burden
- The perks themselves
- Many perks were nerfed
- Pop
- Pain res
- Grim Embrace
- Dead man's Switch
- The fact that you mention furtive chase just shows exactly what i'm talking about, you obviously don't play killer that much if you are mentioning a horrible perk like that and saying "look it got buffed"
- It is not a placebo, good survivor teams will wait until the last possible second to save, giving them a solid 20 seconds extra per survivor for a total of 80 extra seconds, which is nearly a full gen.
- The anti slug perks are weaker
- Unbreakable is comparable to DS, but is actually weaker, because you can immediately be downed afterwards and it does nothing, DS stuns you and gives the survivor distance and time, but again, one time use and it is done.
- The only other one worth anything is WGLF, but WGLF is not as good as you think, it gives endurance sure, but the point of slugging isn't to camp the slug, you use it for pressure, you leave the slugged guy alone. And the extra healing time isn't relevant either because the survivor is recovering, they already are likely at 95% recovered anyway, so it just turns your 2 second pickup time to 1 second, not that big of a deal.
- None of the other "anti-slug" perks are really worth it.
- It is an issue, have you watched a comp game recently? The game is balanced around a chase with a survivor lasting 45 seconds, most don't know this but the devs have stated it. But that is the chase time, you still have:
- Finding the survivor probably takes ~10 seconds
- Chasing the survivor takes 45 seconds
- Picking up the survivor and hooking them takes 20 seconds
- Finding the next survivor takes ~10 seconds
- For a total of 10 + 45 + 20 + 10 = 85 seconds. There goes 2-3 gens in your first chase. And then your second one is another gen, and then your 3rd is the last gen. Congrats, you have 3 hooks.
- Flashlight saves are not counterable 99% of the time because the survivors who are playing for flashlight saves KNOW they should go down in a spot where the killer can't face a wall, sure you could spend a few seconds looking around for a survivor going for a save, but, oh look, you just spend another 10-15 seconds now looking around for someone who may or may not be there, congrats, you just lost 3 gens again.
- See above around time spent
- Flashbangs are bugged right now and 100% uncounterable because even if you face a wall they can drop the flashbang inside the killer model and it will still blind them, there is no excuse here.
- See the above perks, all it takes is a single sabo, and then a single body block and the survivor wiggles off and your 45 second chase just meant nothing. The amount of effort you spend downing that survivor is greater than the effort spent saving them. Same for flashbangs, flashlights and pallet saves.
- Same as above
- Hooking only gives "time pressure" if you think about hook states, but again it takes a survivor the same amount of time to go pick a survivor up from the ground, that it does to unhook them. And at minimum they are probably going to take a solid 30 seconds to do that. And with a 4 minute bleed out timer, that means at most you are downing them 8 times. That's only if they are close by for the save, and if they are, slugging is stronger when survivors group up. On top of that, if you slug you aren't spending the 20 seconds to hook the survivor, so you can immediately start pressuring another survivor whereas the 20 seconds gives the other survivors 60 seconds of gen progress
- 20 seconds is nearly minimum and most people really don't think about this.
- 2.7 wipe animation
- 3 second pickup animation
- 10 seconds to walk to a hook (calculated based on average distance between hooks, sometimes it is less, sometimes more, but average is 10 seconds)
- 1.5 second hooking animation
- 2.7 + 3 + 10 + 1.5 = 17.2 seconds
- And this is assuming you pick them up literally immediately, which, as we just discussed, you can't do because you need to look out for someone coming to save. So in most games you are probably looking at around 25-30 seconds when you know flashlights are in play, or the survivor goes down under a pallet.
- It is subjective, but it does matter, and is something to look at.
I strongly suggest you watch the video, it is solid and talks literally about these things and even about the empathy. It recognizes that survivors don't like being slugged, but also points out that we need to look at WHY this is happening, and not just bandaid it.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882778#Comment_3882778
Well, that raises the question, what exactly makes hooking weak?
I just explained it to you. There is a whole video explaining it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aInEGwk2TtEBut the general gist is:
- Patch after patch of buffing basekit things for survivors around being hooked/unhooked
- Having dozens of meta perks that are related to survivors getting hooked/unhooked
- Having killer perks around hooking being nerfed patch after patch
- Basekit timer increase to hooks being 70 seconds
- The fact that there are farm more anti-tunnel/hook based perks than there are anti-slugging perks. And the anti-slugging ones aren't that good
- Patch after patch of not addressing the speed of generators in relation to how long it takes to chase survivors
- Having to worry about flashlight saves
- Having to worry about pallet saves
- Having to worry about flashbang
- which is bugged right now BTW to be uncounterable
- Having to worry about sabotage
- Having to worry about body blocks
- You get the same generator pressure leaving them on the ground that you do hooking them
- The fact that it takes 20 seconds to hook a survivor
- Its more fun as a killer because you get constant chases.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882760#Comment_3882760
I just said, I do know why this is happening.
I'm not actually trying to punish people, here. I just know there's no way of fixing this without a deterrent towards aggressively slugging, because anything that pushes the game towards the killer's win condition after heavy slugging is going to encourage it. That's the opposite of fixing the problem.
The fact of the matter is, the comments about survivors being buffed unbelievably when you hook them are just overblown. Things can be done to improve the killer experience overall, of course, and even bodyblocking could potentially be addressed sometime, but we can't assume that because some players are kinda annoyed by bodyblocking that we should actually make hooking itself more rewarding than it already is.
But the point is that hooking is NOT rewarding. The point is that slugging is more effective because hooking is so weak.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882751#Comment_3882751
Endurance can be forced, not the other things. Only the basekit BT and OTR can be leveraged this way, and even then only in scenarios where the killer's actually near the hook, which isn't every time.
So, we have a very short list of things that only sometimes have to be dealt with without you playing into them, that are often trivially easy to deal with anyway, and don't affect the basic value you'd get from having hooked that person to begin with.
Killers aren't hooking because they're currently getting more value from slugging. They're currently getting more value from slugging because fewer people expect it, so they aren't prepared to deal with it, and a lot of the preparation they'd do revolves around specific perks, which isn't ideal from a gameplay perspective.
If slugging were made riskier, most killers who are currently slugging would just go back to hooking, because hooking's completely fine at the moment overall.
Please, have empathy and understand WHY this is happening and stop looking to punish people.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882733#Comment_3882733
There is no way to force a pickup. What typically happens is that survivors are bodyblocking, which can be forced, and the killer decides to pick them up either because it's the path of least resistance (or would be without DS) or because they're just kinda not thinking that hard about it. That's not the same as DS being forced, if you're aware of what survivors who play like this are banking on you can avoid it 100% of the time.
As for why survivors get those things, let's actually adjust that real quick to take Deliverance and Dead Hard off the list. Survivors aren't just given those, Deliverance is earned via getting a safe unhook and Dead Hard requires you to actually time it right. So, we're actually looking at DS, basekit BT, Unbreakable, and OTR.
DS, basekit BT, and OTR exist because without them there'd be a glaring flaw in the game's balance: if the killer just hits you as soon as your feet touch the ground, you're back on the hook with no input on your end. That's bad for balance, bad for the experience, and cuts out a huge swath of the game's, y'know, gameplay.
Unbreakable exists to answer the killer's gameplay as well, albeit in a less extreme way. Leaving survivors on the ground is sometimes a good idea, so survivors can spend a perk slot to protect against that very specific decision.
None of these are a reward for "losing", or just for getting caught/downed. They're answers to specific killer choices outside of the basic interaction of being downed and hooked, and they very crucially do not affect the basic value of downing and hooking survivors- except for Unbreakable, to be fair. None of the hook related ones affect the basic value you get from hooking someone, though.
As for them feeling like NOED, I mean, fine? NOED's fine.
Again, you can FORCE the killer to be hit by these things. And that is the problem, you cannot just say "don't tunnel".
At the same time, i agree with you, and i don't think "don't tunnel" should be a perk thing, they basekit should not just "punish" tunneling, but make it completely impossible from a gameplay perspective.
But they also need to address the reason that killers are not hooking. Please, have a little empathy for the other side and try and understand. Don't just think "path of least resistance" and "killers bad" really try to understand WHY killers are not hooking.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882725#Comment_3882725
Basekit BT is the one thing you do actually have to deal with, I'd agree with that. Stuff like the anti face camp, the extra ten seconds on hooks, various other anti-tunnel/anti-camp perks like DS and Shoulder The Burden and such, those are the things you don't have to deal with unless you're actively tunnelling/camping.
It's at best a minor annoyance, though, it's hardly "hooks aren't worth it anymore" levels of overbearing.
DS can literally be forced. Just watch any streamer, most of the time when they get hit by DS they are literally not tunneling. You often get hit by DS more while not tunneling than you do by tunneling.
Lets look at it this way, survivors tend not to like the perk "No one escapes death" because it isn't earned, the killer "earns it" by losing, they are rewarded for doing badly in a way right?
Why is it that survivors get:
- DS
- Basekit BT
- DH
- Unbreakable
- OTR
- Deliverance
- Etc
All for getting hooked? Those things are things the survivors "earned" by "losing" they got caught. That is how killers feel about so many survivor perks and basekit mechanics. They all feel like NOED to us.
You also seem to think that things like "shoulder the burden" are fine because "just don't tunnel" You need to realize that the game fundamentally is designed in a way where the killer cannot 12 hook people. There is no time to 12 hook people. If you haven't removed a survivor from the game by your 5th or 6th hook, you are probably going to lose.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882711#Comment_3882711
It's not really what this thread is about but I do have to point out, there's been extremely little added to the game that buffs survivors surrounding hooks where the killer actually does have to deal with it. The vast majority of it specifically surrounds camping or tunnelling, not just hooking in general.
It's tricky to make hooking more rewarding without it being broken, considering how rewarding hooking already is.
Though, again, to reiterate: This thread is about why a faster bleedout timer is a bad idea.
"Just dont tunnel" doesn't work when survivors can actively OFFENSIVELY use OTR and Basekit BT and DS to body block for their teammates and still get a free escape.
But it is all related, the REASON this slugging epidemic has happened is because the devs constantly punish hooks.
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@jesterkind said:
I won't go into tons of detail setting up the issue with slugging, everyone knows what general conversation I'm talking about regardless of how much they agree on it being a problem. What I want to talk about is one of the alternative solutions to basekit Unbreakable that I see, and how I think it's not a good idea at all despite how popular it is.
The pitch is typically something like this: Once you've been on the ground for a set amount of time, you can either speed up your bleedout timer, or just instantly bleed out and die on the spot, to avoid being stuck on the ground for minutes when the killer's aggressively slugging.
My issue with that is that I firmly believe that any variation on this system would inevitably lead to more slugging, not less, and just being able to lose faster isn't going to make it all that much less annoying. That last part is why I think it'll lead to more slugging- this suggestion would tell killer players that if they want to aggressively slug their opponents, their opponent's answer to that… is to lose faster and give them more value.
This isn't necessarily a firm argument for a basekit Unbreakable system - though for the record I do think that's the safest direction to look - but rather an argument against a faster/instant bleedout. I think that allowing killers to win quicker via slugging is going to encourage slugging, since you get more out of it if your opponents just get bored of being left there and die quicker.
Basekit unbreakable is just going to punish killers harder for things out of their control and faster bleedout just encourages the slugging more.
They need to fundamentally go back to the drawing board and look into WHY killers are slugging and WHY survivors hate it and address it more intelligently. They can't just bandaid fix this because all that will happen is killers will go to the next "annoying thing"
They need to realize that spending years giving survivors buffs when they get unhooked through perks, and basekit mechanics. While also nerfing killer perks around hooking while also increasing the hook timer, while also making survivors on the hook actually safer than ones not on the hook is obviously going to lead to "not hooking"
They need to actively ENCOURAGE killers to hook by rewarding them, not by punishing them. They need to make tunneling fundamentally IMPOSSIBLE from a gameplay perspective, not bandaid it with more basekit mechanics. They need to do something about the "game is definitely lost now" for BOTH SIDES that just makes everyone immediately give up, and deal with the "slugging the whole team for 4 minutes" and "slugging for the 4k"
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882670#Comment_3882670
There's a difference between feeling entitled to a win and not enjoying losing by design. To me, the game is at an inflection point in year 9. Players are increasingly frustrated with losing by design in the survivor role due to external factors like matchmaking. The game has to evolve.
What works for the first 500 hours doesn't necessarily work for the next 1000. There has to be some expectation that improvement leads to better results. That's not the case with solo survivor. You win exactly the same number of games at 5000 hours that you did at 200 hours. You have more players every year with a high number of hours who aren't seeing results despite their best efforts.
Because the game is a 1v4. Fundamentally BY DESIGN that means that the 4 have to work as a team.
But BHVR refuses to allow solo survivors to work as a team by locking so many things behind perks, no way to communicate and so on. Just look at how many survivor perks are "see what your teammate is doing" or "your teammates can see what you are doing" and you'll realize this.
Sometimes i wonder what would have been if the game was designed more in a way where it was like 1v10 and it was EXPECTED that the killer does not kill everyone, so then its more of a "survival game" rather than what we have now. Kinda like F13.
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This is a bait thread.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881382#Comment_3881382
they’re really not at the moment - that’s the problem.
They are.
And that is the exact same thing that i get told when i talk about SWF death squads that bully the killer constantly where they are lucky to even get a single hook "its rare"
Well here i am telling you the same thing. "Its rare"
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@danielmaster87 said:
Do y'all ever factor MMR into why solo is so "miserable?" Or just blindly blame killer stuff every time?
This really is the biggest problem with balance decisions. People at 1400 MMR get thrown into the same bracket as those with 2K+ and people wonder why the game is a mess.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881336#Comment_3881336
not if they’re all on the floor which is where we are at in a lot of matches now.
Call it whatever skill issue you want. It wasn’t a skill issue when three survivors used to escape through the hatch. That was nerfed and quite rightly so. This is exactly the same. It’s problematic snd it needs to change.
I’ve taken unbreakable. I’ve taken exponential and through combinations of slugging and camping it still no use.
We are at a place where literally any positive change for survivors provokes the response of: ‘this is just going to mean killers are going to have to slug more’ and when that happens it exposes the crutch.
Those matches are rare, even when playing a slugging build usually you will start hooking once everyone is downed.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880979#Comment_3880979
Not even remotely the same thing. Equating any of these to being on the ground for 4 minutes is disingenuous at best. Using your power takes care of half of these alone. And none of these things prevent you from playing the game entirely.
You aren't prevented from playing game on the ground, you can crawl around and teammates can heal you.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880979#Comment_3880979
yeah all the time actually I play without those things, bc I do consider the other side. I literally never use or do any of those things. Sooooo this is awkward…
You would be one of the extremely rare ones, every single game people do exactly the things i listed in my games.
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@ShadowHeart said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880517#Comment_3880517
When you really break down the numbers, it makes you wonder how survivors ever lose a match. If a killer takes 60 seconds to chase and hook a survivor, the survivors could have completed 180 seconds worth of generators out of the 450 (base) seconds of total generator progress needed. Remember, that 450 seconds can be divided by 4 and completed concurrently.
And if you assume 60 seconds for the total time of a killer finding a survivor, chasing them, and hooking them, it takes a killer 540 seconds to get their first kill without tunneling (2 hooking all survivors, which is what they want) and 720 seconds to get a 4k. And unlike the survivors, this time is cannot be divided. The killer must go through it all, unless the survivors make serious mistakes.
Because they are allergic to doing gens. There's a reason that these efficient high level SWF squads usually get 4 man out with 1 or 2 hooks. And then the answer is always "those teams are rare though"
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@MoZo said:
Killers using a vpn to get in a game where their ping is far higher than all the survivors should be bannable. It gives them an unfair advantage from the start. They get hits that should never hit and you can clearly see them go for m1’s that are miles away because they know they can get away with it. Not even finesse or resi can counter a high ping killer at windows or dropped pallets, we should be able to report players that do this because it’s not like they’re lagging and going up and down, their ping stays at a steady 200+ the whole match while everyone else is fine.
Because it isn't possible for BHVR to tell if someone is actually using a VPN, or if they just have bad internet. By definition and design that is how VPNs work.
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@Tsanders said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880979#Comment_3880979
"Not fun for the killer" is usually a mild inconvenience for the killer at best, because survivors can't stop a killer from playing the game.
"Not fun for the survivor" usually involves removing the agency of that player. If someone gets tunneled out before they have a chance to do anything it doesn't feel great. If the killer is determined to slug the whole team and make everyone bleed out for four minutes it also doesn't feel great.
A killer can break a pallet. A sabo'd hook will respawn. You can drop chase to avoid an infinite. A flashlight/flashbang can be recovered from or countered completely with one perk. A survivor gets one (1) more chance with unbreakable and if that killer is determined to slug unbreakable isn't going to help. If you're in soloQ you can't exactly coordinate with your teammates to try to counter a slugger.
Killers are always mad that survivors are trying to survive while survivors are mad that killers are trying to see how many game mechanics they can bypass to win.
Anything that removes agency there outside of "hooks" is against the rules, like body blocking in a corner, as in, it is bannable. But again there, you show your clear bias. Because the "survivor things" are, well counterable.
I can say the same thing about tunneling:
- Just run anti-tunnel perks
- Just get body blocks from your teammates
- Just run unbreakable to not get slugged
- and so on.
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@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/438077/ever-thought-off-why-slugging-increased
- Campers still camp. They just changed to proxy-camping than face-camping. so nothing really new.
- +10s of hook time doesnt change anything, cause literally noone ever waited till the last second to unhook anyone. And campers still proxy-camp.
- Cause they were by far too strong when stacked. And theyre still too strong when stacked, otherwise nobody would use them since nerf, but in fact theyre still #1 used perks (by bad players).
- +1s doesnt make DS any stronger than before unless you play just m1 killer. even than DS was never that strong to begin with.
- What second chance perks do you even refer to?
- Hooking was never punished and rewards never changed too.
- Gentimes has been nerfed, just for your information, and therefor hasnt been better than anytime before.
Youre just trying to defend something that has never been able to defend.
So only bad players use gen defense perks?
I would love for you to record some footage of your matches as killer where you aren't using gen defense perks, and post them on youtube. I'm sure a lot of us killer players would love to watch your games and learn what we are doing wrong so we can all improve together!
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@H2H said:
What exactly are killers allowed to do that won’t be called “unfair” or “crutch” or any number of other derogatory things?
You have to chase only a single survivor, with no perks on trapper and not use trapper's power at all, Then when you finally down the survivor, you need to immediately pick them up, make sure you don't face a wall so they have a chance to flashlight save. Then you hook them, then you need to immediately run to the opposite end of the map as fast as possible and face a wall. Then once they get saved, you need to wait for them to heal, then you can start chasing another survivor. But make sure you don't go after the person who was just hooked, or that is tunneling. In fact, if you even enter a chase against that survivor, you have to immediately run to basement for 30 seconds as a punishment.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
There are only two reasons:
It's easy to do and hard to counter.
Content creators started promoting it.
Everything else in your list is more than 6 months before any real issues occurred, and are only there because this community on the forums largely believes that "we'll keep making people's games miserable until you buff us" is somehow a good way to convince the devs to change the game or fix perceived issues.
Until this literally bully mentality. The true reason slugging occurs for a lot of people is simply to make people miserable and take advantage of the imbalance of the power role in the game. We saw the same exact thing with the 3 gen meta.
Killers are not responsible for survivor player's fun.
Do survivor players ever think:
- I won't predrop pallets this game
- I won't run to main building this game
- I won't abuse the near infinite in Garden of Joy
- I won't abuse bugged flashbangs this game
- I won't try to flashlight save
- I won't sabo hooks this game
- I won't bring a cracked toolbox with BNP this game
- I won't bring insta-heals this game
All in the name of "its not fun for the killer"? No, they don't, and I don't think they should either. But the point is that expecting killer players to care, when survivor players don't care either is ridiculous.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880871#Comment_3880871
Why?
I highly doubt it will bring any new information to light.
It will simply be someone coping.
People are doing it because it works. Survivors are not used to having to play around slugging.
It obliterates Solo Q without any difficulty and can do well against most casual SWF's too. On top of that, it puts Killers in a position of power, which people love no matter the role.
All this will accomplish is getting slugging nerfed to the ground. On the bright side, BHVR will finally address a playstyle that is extremely uninteractive. On the bad side, they will kill it.
To check your biases a little bit and maybe look at things from a different perspective?
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880881#Comment_3880881
sorry but I’m not interested in just biased killer pro points.
Especially towards the end where you just did the usual “killer oppressed victims survivor op” thing you always do.
“That's also just the perks, i didn't even mention the:
- Basekit BT
- Anti-Face Camp
- 4% unhooks
- the 70 second hook timer now
- The fact that all the killer hook perks have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed over and over and over again”
basekit bt and anti camps were objectively healthy changes to the game. You think face camping bubbas and survivors getting downed as soon as they touch the ground was healthy for the game? Maybe if your biased towards killer (which you are)
“Killer perks have been nerfed and nerfed”Yeah killers still use those perks. Sorry that you lose maybe one more extra game yet still win most of them. This isn’t 2017 dbd anymore. Quit acting like it
I think you are reading into a bias that you perceive is there, especially based off your comments.
Nowhere in that did i say that basekit BT and AFC are bad for the game. Actually i think the concept of them is good for the game, but they went about it the wrong way. They are just another piece of evidence of the devs actively discouraging killers from hooking survivors. Think of it this way, we go from a time where none of these things existed to:
- Basekit BT gets added
- Anti face camp gets added
- Survivor anti-tunnel perks get buffed
- The killer hook perks like Pop/Pain res/BBQ (bloodpoints) etc. get nerfed
- Hook timer gets increased to 70 seconds
All of these things are things that actively punish killers for hooking. While rewarding survivors for getting hooked.
Look at a perk like NOED for example. Survivors often complain about NOED because it "rewards the killer for losing" right? It rewards the killer for playing badly in a way where they can often secure at the very least a kill if not more if survivors play altruistically, all for what? The killer did nothing skillful to activate it, it just happens.
Now look at the survivor side of things. Survivor gets outplayed, and is now downed, but there are a ton of things that now are given to the survivor when they get hooked/unhooked for free, that just HAPPEN. Nothing skillful on the survivor side was done to get them, the survivor in fact got OUTPLAYED and the killer correctly progressed their objective, and now the killer is "punished" for doing so, through the survivor activating a ton of perks, and the killer spending a significant amount of time trying to get that hook.
In terms of AFC and basekit BT, i don't think those were the right approach. What i would have done, was create a system by which tunneling and camping becomes IMPOSSIBLE (not just punished) from a gameplay perspective, while also using that as an opportunity to encourage killers to hook survivors. So my proposed solution is usually to create some mechanic by which, survivors who are unhooked are effectively immune from the killer and are automatically healed when the effect is over. While also making survivors share the 1st hook state. Meaning that even if you hard tunnel, you'd still have to hook someone 6 times in order to remove them from the game.
On the flip side, something would need to be done basekit for killers to reward them for completing their objective. Generally i think this would work best as a "when a survivor is unhooked, they are put on a "timeout" where they can't progress the game and can't be targeted by the killer" But, once that timeout is over they get fully healed and are back in the game. Basekit get kick regression gets buffed up to 10%, basekit regression gets buffed to 0.5 c/s instead of 0.25 c/s. Basekit corrupt that lasts say, 30 seconds, a basekit corrupt on totems that lasts say, 30 seconds.
Then from there you can rebalance things like gen speeds in relation to these changes i they need to be increase or decreased. And you have new mechanics by which perks can be made. Meanwhile you can go rework all of the survivor anti-tunnel and anti-camp and the killer gen defense perks to do something more interesting.
The reliance on gen defense perks for example is obvious, the game is balanced around it. Similar to survivors taking anti-tunnel perks, the game is balanced around it. This is evidenced by things like chaos shuffle, where gens fly super fast, and survivors get tunneled super quick. Because both sides know the other side likely doesn't have the perks to deal with that thing.
All i'm saying is, the devs themselves have led us here to this new meta around slugging by punishing killers for going for hooks time and time again all in an effort to deal with tunneling, without actually looking at WHY the killers are tunneling to begin with. And instead of actually making tunneling impossible, and balancing the game around that fact, they instead bandaid the problem with perks and half baked basekit mechanics.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880767#Comment_3880767
off the record is only used because of the endurance. Before it had all of those other effects and the perk was one of the worst perks in the game
Ds is a strong perk I agree.
“Second wind is like a syringe” this is very similar to the dramaturgy is old dead hard” take just ridiculous over exaggeration. The perk only works off the hook and if you heal someone fully. It has a prerequisite. This is the first time I have seen someone complain about the perk.
All these perks don’t do anything if you don’t tunnel or proxy camping. Not saying these perks are bad they are good (except for second wind it’s mid) but compared to all the other problematic perks like dead hard made for this and mettle of man we had in the past, these perks are fine
Shoulder of the burden I can’t really give an opinion on because I have never seen that perk in my killer games and I have only seen it twice in my solo que games. And I don’t own the character so I haven’t tried it out. It maybe problematic but idk tbh
Its not necessarily about every hook perk being strong, its just that the best survivor perks are all about being hooked, and even the worse ones still do something. Basically, take a look at all of the perks that help survivors when they are hooked or have to do with attempting to do a hook (by picking up the survivor):
Perk - Usage
- Babysitter - 1.25%
- Background Player - 4.26%
- Blood rush - 0.70%
- Boil Over - 3.31%
- Boon: Exponential - 1.90%
- Borrowed Time - 1.55%
- Breakdown - 0.94%
- Breakout - 2.17%
- Camaraderie - 0.58%
- Champion of Light - 1.34%
- Dead hard - 10.52%
- Decisive Strike - 9.14%
- Deliverance - 2.78%
- Desperate Measures - 1.30%
- Fast Track - 0.87%
- Flashbang - 6.04%
- Flip-Flop - 1.67%
- Kindred - 6.96%
- Off the Record - 6.85%
- Power Struggle - 1.17%
- Reassurance - 1.92%
- Residual Manifest - 0.93%
- Resurgence - 4.57%
- Saboteur - 1.98%
- Second Wind - 1.13%
- Shoulder the Burden - 1.83%
- Slippery Meat - 0.91%
- We'll Make it - 6.54%
- Wicked - 1.14%
Now, is every one of these perks a complete winner? No, but look at their usage stats
In total, if you add all that up, these have a total usage of 86.25%. Statistically this means that 86% of the time, all 4 survivors will have at least 1 of these perks.
And at higher levels, many of these perks are so meta that you see them every single game:
- Dead hard
- Decisive Strike
- Deliverance
- Flashbang
- Shoulder the Burden
Compare that to the anti-tunnel perks, and the only real good ones are unbreakable and we're gonna live forever.
Unbreakable works once, and is pretty comparable to Decisive Strike. But even that, its weaker than DS. DS stuns the killer giving you time to goto safetly, Unbreakable does not, you can use unbreakable and then immediately get downed 5 seconds later and there goes your perk, unless you stack it with other perks.
We're gonna live forever has a cooldown of 30 seconds, and the double pick up speed is pretty often irrelevant. Because if the survivor is recovering on the ground, they are probably going to be at 90-95% recovered anyway, so WGLF makes them pick them up in 1 second instead of 2 seconds, not much of a difference. And if the survivor is close by enough such that the time bonus of WGLF is good, then the survivor is nearby, and slugging is already the more effective strategy there.
The other thing is that anti-tunnel perks are generally good if you have 1, and even better if you stack them (where it makes sense). But the anti-slug perks are often not good by themselves and require you to stack them, making them even less likely to be a factor.
That's also just the perks, i didn't even mention the:
- Basekit BT
- Anti-Face Camp
- 4% unhooks
- the 70 second hook timer now
- The fact that all the killer hook perks have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed over and over and over again
- Sabotage with toolboxes
- Flashlights
- There's no "anti-slug" item
And the argument of "just don't tunnel" is bad. Good players use these perks and abilities OFFENSIVELY by blocking doorways, or body blocking.
The amount of times i have had someone, who is fully healed, run across the map, to body block, then body block a second time with OTR is insane, wasting so much time, then you just give up and down them, and oh look, DS, and then you figure at this point nothing left, and then, oh look dead hard, and then you down them and oh look all 5 gens done.
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@Pulsar said:
If it's easy and puts people in a position of power over others, people will abuse it.
This is no different than Boil Over, Flip Flop UB in RPD.
They do it simply because they can.
You really should watch the video, it isn't about being in a "position of power" there are far more factors at play here.
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@Adrien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3880461#Comment_3880461
The 3-gen 40 mins+ game with OP gen kick perks was clearly outrageous.
The gen kick META was very low skill in terms of macro and micro gameplay : just perma kick a 3-gen and survivor will lose eventually.
I don't see slugging as bad as this one, far from it. Plus the trials are much shorter on average compared to the 3-gen kick META.
I think most killers use it to avoid some lose-lose situations with flashbangs or pallets saves, and to gain time on the picking up/hook walking time.
Slugging : In order to work, you still have to be a good chaser as a killer. If you are not efficient in chase and survivors managed to do gens quick and pick survivor not too slowly, it can backfire pretty badly.
I think the number 1 problem is the lack of coordination in solo Q, because of the lack information about our teammates.
I suggest a nerf on the aura hiding of Knock Out.
knock out doesn't actually need a nerf though, the perk itself is not good against coordinated teams. Likely what i expect will happen is a total rework of the perk.
But, that is only half of the problem, if you are one of those of us experimenting with this strategy, it is starting to already evolve out of using knock out, because of the SWF problem. We recognize its not going to work against them, so better to put different perks there. The strategy and build will evolve beyond knock out.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/438036/about-the-slug-meta
Thoughts on the video, if this is actually your video my apologies for being blunt.
First 2:30 - discussion about how common slugging is. I feel like that's a different topic.
2:30 to 3:00 - seems to be taking a clear killer sided view of what survivors think. I think he misrepresents, but ultimate conclusion of 'no one should be responsible for anyone else's fun' is correct (well, someone should be, that being BHVR).
3:00 to 3:30 - going at survivors, but I think his logic is off. The vast majority of players I see want BHVR to change the game. Sure, barring that, they'd like killers to not exploit the obvious game problems, but priority should be on BHVR.
Also wrong about survivors. The comparable example of how survivors consider killers fun is that they frequently don't use the best items or builds. I constantly, as killer or survivor, see survivors running no items.
Up to 4:00 - not really sure how this relates
First 4:00 - video is trying to frame the argument, but is creating a strawman to frame against.
4:00 to 5:15 - A classic 'sure, I won the game anyway, but…' The killer gained nothing? They destroyed a bunch of pallets, injured the survivor, and another survivor wasted time coming in for the save.
If the lurking survivor had healing perks and the killer left the survivor slugged, he'd have lost even more.
This falls into the argument of 'slug, because the survivor meta counters hooking'. But if the meta changes to killers slugging and survivors adapt their perks, then slugging won't be advantageous.
5:15 to 7:45 - Scenario 2, this time he notices the lurking survivors. If he'd noticed them in scenario 1 it would not have transpired the same way.
Also he keeps saying 'not easy mode' despite the story sound like 'easy mode'.
7:45 to 10:30 - he needs to split up these categories on pro / cons. We're mixing so many different groups that the count doesn't really matter.
Missing the big obvious one - against a SWF, especially if they have any anti-slug perk, you're going to have to chase and down the survivors many more times than you would by hooking them.
Also I feel like slugging as a killer would get boring quickly. The hooks add another element to the game, taking that out removes a lot of deeper game elements.
10:30 to 15:30 - A lot of perk discussion, but also a good example of how players will optimize the fun out of a game. I'm watching the video in the background and wondering how the killer is actually enjoying this game, nevermind the survivors.
16:30 to End - "If the survivor is on the ground, they were outplayed". Survivors will end up on the ground, the killer will catch them. That's an awful argument to justify something that isn't a fun game.
This would be like if a generator got completed and the killer was frozen in place for a minute and survivors said 'you shouldn't have let the gen get completed, you got outplayed'. No, some gens will get done, that's expected.
"The longer your queue times will get" the inverse is also true, and I think as 2v8 has shown, too many people wanting to play killer is a much harder problem to fix than too many people wanting to play survivor.
He's really deviating from his earlier argument about no one should care about anyone's fun. He's also presuming that the reason DbD made changes was survivor complaints, and not their data + desire to shake up the meta.
He gets into how survivors can use some anti-tunnel perks offensively. I'm not sure if he means this as a balance issue or a fun issue, but this is really coming across as 'how dare survivors try to slow me down',
Overall
A lot of his argument is about meta. If survivors were bringing different builds, his slugging playstyle would gain just as little as fearing flashbangs.
What he finds fun I find strange. He talks about getting hit with a DS as not fun, but I'm watching him play a game were 3 survivors are slugged while he goes around the map, placing traps, trying to find the last survivor. This looks like the most possible boring game I could imagine. Despite all the talk about fun, his desire for the game seems to be 'win via the simplest measures possible'.
Faster bleedout has been asked for for a long time. Slugging becoming more common has just made it more of an issue.
The fact that fixing one issue (the power level of some killer perks) which led to a new problem (slugging meta), does not mean the first solution was incorrect. Improving something is a series of steps where you make corrections as new problems emerge.
You are saying that survivors are "wasting time coming for a save" but ignore the fact that to get the save it takes far less time then it did for the killer to get the down, you are still in the mindset of "average solo queue games" where chases last 15 seconds. The average chase in high MMR games (not whatever BHVR calls high mmr, actual high mmr) is far longer than that.
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@Mr_Seymoure said:
Anyone experiencing serious increase of farming bots on European servers? I had 7 today, sometimes two in a row, other survivors I talked to had ten and more. At this point, I can name each one of them, from the classic Doctor farming bot to the popular Onryo teleporting one and the rare Ghostface. I even had a Blight. I have reported them all, but I haven't even heard back from my bot reports from last week let alone the ones from the weekend. Can't wait for the reply to the ones today.
Oh, and of course my DC penalty is now at 5 Minutes. I'll give it one more try, if I get another Bot or Killer with anger issues I am done for today.
Edit: And my DC penalty is now at 15 minutes. Do I get some kind of compensation for having my replacement bot keeping the farming bot occupied so it doesn't queue up right away into another match? (Yes, this was sarcasm)
Onryo teleporting is likely not a bot, willie posted some new stuff recently and found a new strategy for sadako that is more about teleporting and controlling the tvs to the point that you actively don't even want to waste time going for a hit. As an Onryo enjoyer i can confirm that the strategy is pretty solid and fun from a macro gameplay standpoint, and on the survivor side it can look like you are just "spamming tvs" because you kinda are.
Doctor one is probably the bot as evidenced by his winrate being so low the last time they released data (likely due to the bots)
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@Peppa_Pigsaw said:
I feel like part of the reason why slugging is so strong right now is that almost everything killer does takes a decent time sink. In order to score a hook you have go
>Finish the weapon wipe/power animation
>Pick them up
>Walk at a reduced speed to a nearby hook/walk a long distance to make it to a scourge hook to get value
>Hook them.
That time adds up and its a long time to spend in order to simply get a progress point towards your objective, especially considering that recent events like the anniversary and first 2v8 showed that the time save you get from instantly hooking people via cages or the invitation power is massive and also removes the ability to have a sabo/flashlight play go to set you back. I think a lot of people realized just how much time is saved by simply not hooking. Time is everything as a killer.It really is far longer than people realize.
Its:
- 2.7 second wipe animation
- 3 second pickup animation
- ~10 seconds to walk to a hook
- 1.5 second hooking animation.
That's a full 17 seconds, and that is assuming you immediately pick up the survivor, and you don't take a quick second to make sure there isn't someone coming in for the save. All this occurs after what is probably a 30-45 second chase which occurs after about 10-20 seconds hunting the survivors.
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@Dadeordye said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aInEGwk2TtE
Just wanted to share this here.
The perfect video (at least in my opinion) on why slug became meta and what needs to be considered to fix it.Some of us called this out a year ago and were told we were wrong or that BHVR will just "nerf slugging" and we need to "learn to play fair":
@Reinami said:
I'm calling it now.
The new meta will be slugging.
Deadlock isn't really that good of a perk, grim embrace was okish, the only ones worth anything were pop and pain res.
I really think people underestimate how long it takes killers to do anything. Do you know how long it takes to hook a survivor?
- 2.7 wipe animation
- 3 second pickup animation
- ~10 seconds to walk to a scourge hook (a little more than half the bar, sometimes more sometimes less, but scourge hooks are harder to get to sometimes)
- 1.5 second hook animation
Now, even if you KNOW exactly where the gen is that popped, and assume its only half a map away from you. Lets say its the gen on the very middle of the map. How long does it take to walk to that gen? About 11 seconds.
So you have
2.7 + 3 + 10 + 1.5 + 11 = 28.2 seconds.
What is pain res NOW? 22 seconds off a gen.
Pain res LITERALLY does not pay for itself most of the time. Now you want to nerf it even more?
Any on top of that you want to nerf pop back to uselessness? When pop was at 20% nobody used it for a reason, 20% of CURRENT is nothing.
The only reason that "pain res is in nearly 40% of games" is because it is the "best" gen defense perk. But the game is LITERALLY BALANCED AROUDN THE IDEA THAT KILLERS MUST BRING GEN DEFENSE" Even top tier players and streamers basically admit this. Scott, otz, etc. all say that the game is balanced around killers bringing gen defense. Try not bringing gen defense some time in any high mmr game and watch you get destroyed.
I WANT to bring other perks, i DO NOT WANT to have to bring gen defense every game. PLEASE do the following:
- Nerf all of these perks harder. YES HARDER, cut them down even more. And nerf the other ones while you are at it
- BUFF the basekit gen kick to 10%
- BUFF the basekit gen regression to 200%
Make it like you have just done with leatherface. NERF THE ADDONS (in this case the perks) AND BUFF THE BASEKIT.
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@angel_pellegrino said:
I feel like the changes to Wake Up have awakened some of the debate around players who hide a lot during the match, which in turn leads to their teammates getting killed off sooner. Personally, I just never had any talent for stealth in this game. It feels like the killer is always five steps away from me and I can't even fart in the wind without the killer making an immediate beeline for me from across the map....
Outside of some players doing challenges, I feel like some of what happens is that when people first start playing the game, they find looping extremely difficult, if not impossible, and so they adapt the "rat lifestyle" to be able to last in matches longer. It makes sense, because if you avoid the killer most of the game, you stand a pretty chance of not going into the endgame collapse on death hook. The problem is that while you're hiding in lockers and creeping stealthily away into some bushes, the killer is busy hooking all your teammates. And other teammates are having to go for the unhook, opening THEM up to be targeted by the killer.
Of course, just like with slugging or tunneling, I think an argument can be made that stealth does have a place in the game. Especially when it gets down to the final gens and it's a patrol heavy killer who is playing a solid game. But I think it works better if the whole team is using stealth on and off, and not just that one person. Because I think we've all had that game where everybody is getting hooked left and right except for that one survivor, who somehow manages to never get chased at all.
Of course if I'm dead and everybody else is dead, and that one sole survivor who played stealthily gets the hatch or escapes, I guess according to the game and the MMR, that really does make them the better player. Not that it means I'm not going to quietly mumble under my breath as I log out of DBD for the rest of the day. Because I am. LOL.
This is precisely the problem with DBD in general. DBD at first glance seems like a "survival" game where its every man for himself. But the devs designed the game in a way where the survivors are a team, but at the same time MMR makes it so that the team doesn't matter, its about whether YOU escape or not.
I always wonder what the game would be like, if it was designed to be like a 1v10, or something, where it was expected that some survivors are going to escape every game.
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@smurf said:
How can that be reportable? I think the only things that count as holding the game hostage are when you make it so the other side literally is unable to progress or end the game, like bodyblocking a survivor into a corner for extended periods. The killer can just find the survivors in this case.
Survivors don't have a mechanism to make the game unfinishable I think. I've had instances where I had to look for survivors, but I've never seen a case where they were able to hold the game hostage.
The devs have stated that if survivors are just hiding like this, then it is holding the game hostage and reportable.
It is a "refusal to participate in normal gameplay" and is listed as a rule.