Reinami
Reinami
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This is still in the game.
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@jesterkind said:
I'd like to be upfront and say this is a discussion, rather than a declarative statement. I want to know what other people think about this topic.
So, I've been thinking a lot about Wesker recently, and specifically about how much stuff he has in his kit. Just to run down the list, as neutrally as possible, Wesker has:
- The ability to damage survivors with a dash/lunge mechanic that can curve around objects
- The ability to displace survivors with that dash mechanic
- Hindered via his "infection" mechanic
- Instadown capacity via that same "infection" mechanic
- Tracking via Killer Instinct on survivors who try to avoid that "infection" mechanic
- A larger terror radius, which may be a plus or a minus depending on your build
- Deep Wound for colliding a survivor into another survivor (this one doesn't really matter, it's just a cute gimmick, but I'm being thorough here)
If you stop and pull back a little, and look at all of this while remembering how good Wesker is in general, this really starts to look like a bloated kit to me. Damage, mid-chase mobility, movement speed reduction, instadowns, tracking… sure, some of that's harder to reach but it's still more than a fair few killers get.
I'm curious to know if anyone has an argument for all of this stuff being necessary to his kit's strength and identity. I'd also put forward for discussion that the combination of Hindered and tracking being on the same mechanic + one of them being guaranteed to happen depending on which one you choose to counter makes him quite good at delayed tunnelling, EG, chasing someone a short time after an unhook but before they can actually get back into the action.
What do people think? Is Wesker's kit bloated, or does he genuinely need all of these mechanics?
His power is basically a worse version of nurses power in that it can't go through walls. In return he gets:
- Built-in slowdown in his kit, if you ignore infection you could get insta-downed thus you generally have to spend time to do it as the time efficiency lost from being fully infected is worse than just not cleansing it
- Some small detection when they remove the infection
- Eventually survivors run out of resources to remove infection, meaning that there is also a clock.
His terror radius being larger is a bit of a wash. It can confuse survivors more, but in return it makes it really easy to hide from him.
Given that nurse exists, he seems fine to me.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
Been playing a lot of Demo and have been doing the testing and honestly I still have Survivors who are on the same elevation (no slopes, no difference in elevation) who still Crouch Tech my Shreds.
In fact, it quite literally feels the same as before, I quite literally have not seen any differences in hit boxes and collision where I can say “I would have (not) hit this prior to the update”.
Like Idk, did they actually fix it?
They did not, i reported it and they never replied, there's an otz clip that show that it literally still works on the PTB on completely flat level on The Game, unfortunately my post is gone because it was in the PTB feedback forum
EDIT: Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7j1k99e080&t=214s -
@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3878088#Comment_3878088
I know that, but my fear is that Freddys slugging would still become too good because the rescuer having to wake up wastes time. But your second point is a fair argument, so maybe his slugging won't become too much of a problem. We'll have to wait and see.
That's what i'm saying though, if someone is slugged they are recovering. They can recover 95% of their bar, which means someone else only needs to heal them for 0.8 seconds in order to pick them up. That freddy would have to be damn quick to, hear the killer instinct, find it, target it, and start channeling the teleport in 0.8 seconds.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3877637#Comment_3877637
The difference between Freddy and Sadako’s passive slowdown mechanics are that survivors are punished for ignoring alarms. Nightmare has anti-loop potential and can teleport on top of healing (including injured but picking up a slug) survivors who are asleep. Sadako cam do nothing of the sort.
Which is precisely why sadako still needs some help. I don't know why they keep making her slowdown part of her power so bad that survivors can just ignore it by just turning off a TV everytime they get a chance, and then not giving her an actual chase power.
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@ad19970 said:
I am curious if I missed something, because if Freddy can still teleport to a slugged survivor being healed by a survivor in the dream world, then I fear this new Freddy will become an issue fairly quickly, and simply land in the already big list of killers that almost every survivor hates facing.
I think his teleport to healing survivors that are injured is fine, but being able to slug survivors and then teleport to them as soon as they are being healed by a survivor in the dream world, just makes his slugging potential way too good. Because now he can just pressure slugged survivors from whether he is, or survivors have to waste extra time waking up before picking a survivor up, which also just increases his slugging potential, considering slugging is already a problem in this game.
Like seriously, this game definitely doesn't need another obnoxious killer to face.
Downing the survivor wakes them up, so only the rescuer needs to use a clock. Furthermore, a freddy would need to teleport damn fast if the person actually recovers first.
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He feels really good, the main thing i would change at this point is the sleep immunity for alarm clocks. The problem is unlike some killers that have counters to their power like this they usually at least still HAVE a power. For example, singularity, who still can quickly reapply the power. But for freddy it effectively gives him 0 power.
Making it so the alarm clock wakes you up, and then maybe gives you 30 extra seconds of timer on your sleep would be good. You'd still probably have to hit 2-3 snares before they fall back to sleep, and hitting them still puts them to sleep.
Or maybe it just gives you immunity to the passive sleep for 30 seconds for example. Either one would work fine.
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@Glaive said:
I still hate the fact I can’t accurately and quickly lock onto a gen in search mode, you have to be pinpoint perfect and even then some maps/gens you just can’t lock onto, so many wasted search modes from this.
Yeah, they should just make it prioritize the gens, there is no world where i'm aiming in the direction of a gen, but actually i don't want to i want to aim closer to me and not actually at the gen. You almost ALWAYS want to do a gen because it makes the path longer. Even if i'm trying to do it to a spot in front of me but not at the gen, i still want it to snap to the gen so i can chase the survivor potentially while on the trail.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876757#Comment_3876757
If they are the top 5%, then they are the high mmr bracket. High mmr is always in relation to the best players, not some arbitrary number. If the high mmr threshold was set at 10 million, but nobody could get over 2 thousand, that would be a pretty horrible system, since no one could ever be considered "high" mmr.
If the top 5% includes the people 3 and 4 standard deviations to the right of average on the bell curve, as well as the top 3% of performers from 2 standard deviations to the right of average, that is high mmr.
A lot of the information around mmr was accessible until the wiki removed it because people got salty.
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@jesterkind said:
I want to make it clear what I'm asking here, so bear with me.
I see this notion pop up a lot, that there's no win condition for DBD so players have to come up with their own. I cannot understand this position, personally, because the win conditions are so obvious to me (with slight ambiguity that does exist) that I can't see how anyone could think the game doesn't have one.
I'm not here to argue whether or not what I see as the win condition is correct, though. I want to know why people think it's not clear. Is there something missing from the game that would define the win condition for you? If so, what is it? If not, what led you to your position about there not being a win condition?
I hope it's clear, I don't mean to shame or lambast anyone here. This is a post made very much in good faith to try and understand the opposing position in this discussion.
Because the devs have never stated what is a win or a loss as a killer, only for survivor that the only thing that matters is escaping. After all "kills equals skills" (which is a bad idea but its what they say)
Yes, we can probably assume that 0 kills is a loss, and 4 kills is a win, and arguably 2 kills is a draw. But what about 1 kill? Is 1 kill still a draw? After all the game says "brutal killer"? Is 3 kills still a win? What about 3 kills plus a hatch? What about 3 kills plus one out the gate, there are too many factors in play to determine what is a "win" vs what is a "loss"
Why is that? Because MMR treats this game not as a 1v4, but as 4 1v1s. So if you kill 1 survivor, you "won" that 1v1, but lost the other 1v1s. But, what if the survivors were actually way higher in MMR than you? That could in theory mean that the 1 you killed actually gave you more MMR than the amount you lost from the other 3, so would such a match actually be considered a win?
And that is just based on how the devs treat it, some players count hooks, or count more survivors escaping. What if, i as a survivor die, but i help 3 of teammates out, personally i consider that a win even if BHVR doesn't. I also tend to go by hooks and not kills where i see 0-4 hooks as a loss, 5-7 hooks as a draw, and 8-12 hooks as a win. Because i feel hooks shows more skill than kills and is more relevant.
This is actually why i think they SHOULD show MMR, because it would make people feel a lot better about things if for example a crazy SWF team went against you but you still managed to get one, meaning your MMR actually stayed the same. Or working in the reverse, where the killer was a crazy MMR above you, so actually you only lost like 2 MMR for dying that game. It would make the losses hurt less, and the wins feel better.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876263#Comment_3876263
SWF at High MMR escape 48% of the time.
It is Killer v SWF v Solo
Killers tunnel because it is the easiest way to win the most often.
High MMR is the High MMR "Bracket" that is 1400 MMR and up. Which is not "high mmr"
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@Kateycutie117 said:
Survivors should be able to fix the flat tires or replace the wheels so they can move the generators around.
Add it in.
Honestly i think they should have done this instead of the anti-3 gen we have now. Make it so survivors can slowly move the generators to a different location.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875846#Comment_3875846
What facts, exactly? You haven't actually contradicted me in any way or brought up something I didn't understand about Houndmaster. The only thing you presented is your opinion that camping a pallet to stun the dog is "insanely good". I have already explained why I don't think it's nearly as effective as people make it out to be. It only is at all beneficial if the killer actually sends the dog on you and then lets you stun both it and themselves. If the Houndmaster player has played more than 1-2 matches on the killer, they should be smart enough to simply not walk into the pallet in these instances. If you don't stun Houndmaster, the Hindered effect absolutely prevents you from leaving the tile, forcing you to play it. And she has the dog back in 3 seconds. You make 1 loop before you are pretty much inevitably taking a hit.
I went to twitch.tv, searched for "Houndmaster", found Wacek134 doing a winstreak with her (70+ matches), and looked for instances of survivors using pallets against the dog. I had to go through multiple videos to even find a handful of relevant instances, because if you actually go and watch some of his matches, you'll see that survivors regularly cannot even make it to pallets, or that he will simply curve the dog around the tile so it doesn't matter.
Anyway, here's some clips:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2348514155?t=2h16m44s - The snowplow is a really safe tile, Adam drops the pallet to stun the dog, dies to the dog before he can make it around. And that was with Houndmaster even sending the dog from a distance as opposed to standing in front of the pallet, so she had a lot more ground to cover to catch up.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2348514155?t=2h19m9s - Here's a survivor camping a pallet to play around the dog. Wacek forces the pallet down by walking into it, instantly sends the dog over the pallet and gets a hit. At an incredibly safe standard tile, a long wall jungle gym.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2358707846?t=1h29m47s - Here the survivor is at another gym, the dog forces her to drop the pallet early, putting her in an unfavourable position to play it, taking the hit seconds later.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2348514155?t=1h38m55s - Instead of standing in front of the pallet, here Wacek holds the corner of the tile and simply waits to see which side the survivor will drop the pallet from.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2358707846?t=1h19m33s - This situation at another safe pallet shows that even when you are at the pallet you can send the dog around the tile and force the pallet drop from a side disadvantageous for the survivor.
And again, these are some of the few instances I could find of survivors even being able to use a pallet against the dog between 5 multiple-hour sessions I skipped through. Usually he just gets his hits in other ways. You'll also notice that he barely ever kicks pallets or has to, tons of them are left up over the course of the match because dropped pallets are basically guaranteed hits for Houndmaster. And even in the "worst case" scenario where you do break the pallet when the survivor stuns the dog, they won't have made much distance due to Hindered (let alone if you use Brutal Strength) and you'll have the dog back to send after them immediately.
To note: I'm not saying Houndmaster is the strongest killer in the game, she doesn't have great map pressure or remarkable snowball potential. But she is another offender of a killer that is much too easy to play when compared to how difficult she is to play against, and some of her mechanics or numbers are overtuned in that they create situations without real counterplay, and situations that I guarantee the devs did not test or deliberate much on. Especially the things they hastily buffed prior to the holiday break, most of all the vault speed and cooldown duration. But also things like the fact that Houndmaster can simply stand next to a survivor and wait for them to free themselves, and only then hit them, since they will suffer from Hindered in that case and barely make any distance, often leading to a swift "two-tap". The 5-second gate block vs. 3-second dog cooldown also makes it blatantly obvious that these things were not thought through.
I'm sure BHVR will rectify some of these issues, I just hope it won't take 6+ months like it did with Merchant.
- The adam played that tile so bad she probably didn't need the dog the second time
- Yeah, the point of the dog is you have to dodge it, once you dodge it you get big distance, this person did not dodge it, and after stunning the killer just stood around and did nothing instead of running away. Also she went the wrong way around that loop, you want to loop that one clockwise.
- Survivor stuns the dog and then just starts panic vaulting, of course they are going to get hit.
- The 4th one is just a bad pallet in general, any killer power that works similarly would have also landed a hit here, again, the first aspect of the power is dodging it, this person failed to dodge it.
- You have a very big misunderstanding of what safe pallet is, because that pallet is 100% mindgameable if it isn't dropped. But again, this survivor went the wrong way around. If anything here the reason it happened was because of her bug, she aimed one direction, making the survivor think the dog was going that way, but the dog got stuck because it was bugged landing her a hit. One of the rare cases where one of these bugs actually helped the killer.
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@Sngfun said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875789#Comment_3875789
No it is true random perks, it doesn't matter which ones you have unlocke
Oh, well then my mistake, i thought it only counted stuff you unlocked.
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@Gucci_218_TTV said:
Your MMR must be low too. Obviously you havent played against a good houndmaster either lol so your knowledge "just camp a pallet" is useless and overall worthless lmao so sad. Was hoping id get better inputs on this but i guess not.
No its true, you camp the pallet. If she throws the dog, you drop the pallet to stun the dog, if she doesn't then she's holding the dog and slowly moving toward you. The key is to not predrop the pallet, because if you do, she can time it so the dog jumps over before you get out of the animation and you get grabbed anyway.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875665#Comment_3875665
I was confused by this because survivors can go through your hitbox... and the search for that led me to this:
I thought this was a feature... but maybe it's a bug? So your point has more validity.
I'm still veheremently against basekit Unbreakable, I feel a variation of basekit Tenacity to make it away from the site you are slugged at is the way to go to address aggressive slugging.
However with the context that's a bug, your suggestion at least makes more sense.
It was never announced as a feature in that patch, it just randomly started happening. Pretty much since as far back as i can remember (around a bit before legion release) it has been this way that killers picking up survivors body blocked survivors.
Letting killers grab survivors from one side of the pallet or the other, to prevent pallet saves, but more importantly, it is the reason flashbang is so busted right now. Because a survivor can walk inside the killer and drop the flashbang even if the killer is facing the wall it will still blind them.
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@KatsuhxP said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875551#Comment_3875551
I agree that it's probably just the amount of useless perks, but at least no mither seems to have a 25% chance to be given to someone. Almost every round at least one person has it xD
Depending on who is playing in the game david is one of the free survivors. So if someone only has a handful of survivors there is a much higher chance that they get that perk.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875560#Comment_3875560
Ironic that he made this video, then yesterday uploaded a video about why asymm PvP games are dying.
And the why asym games are dying was similar to what almo was saying, what is your point?
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875257#Comment_3875257
Thank goodness coordinated teams were rare in Evolve. That should sound familiar too.
One of the issues Evolve had that led to its downfall (not the only factor as you know so let’s not pretend here) was that no one really wanted to play as the hunters. Monster was the more popular role. At a high level of skill, yes, you could win most of your matches as monster.
I actually think if both the hunters and the monster were highly skilled, it was a balanced match with the edge going to whomever had the better early game. If the monster broke up the hunter team by focusing down one of their players (Wraith and Kraken were really good at this; Gorgon wasn’t bad either) it was a wipe for the hunters. If the hunters worked together and cornered the monster without ceding ground then they stood a good chance at winning. Hunters couldn’t sleep through matches and win. Neither could monsters. And frankly, that’s how it should be.
Rarity doesn't change the fact that its a problem and led to the games eventual downfall and likely will lead to DBDs as well.
Just because something is rare doesn't mean it is balanced. My question to you is, are you one of the ones who thinks killers like blight are too strong? Do you think nurse is too strong? After all, it is rare for someone to go against a killer that can just 4k at 5 gens with these killers. So they are fine right? Is nurse fine? Is she balanced? After all, in most games, she's actually below average in terms of kill rate when you look at the average games played. Its only in the hands of that "rare" 4k hour nurse main that she's able to destroy everyone while trolling.
Watch a tru3ta1ent video some time. I know he gets a lot of flak, but look at the caliber of teams that he constantly goes against. This is also the kind of thing i see, almost every game, all p100s, bringing in crazy medkits, instaheals, bnps, all survivors with DS/DH/Hyperfocus with cracked toolboxes almost every single game (on my main killers anyway)
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Not sure how i double posted, but see my above comment.
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Also i bring you this as to why slugging is happening more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX1naPZPwEI -
@VadersRage6 said:
This is coming from a person that actively plays both sides often but I think 4 man slugging and being bled out needs to be addressed in the last week iv had multiple singularitys especially bring third seal and knockout mind you knockout is extremely unhealthy and could use a change anyway but the issue is killers like singularity are incentiviced to slug people and this leads to boring unfun gameplay of you being left on the floor to sit like this picture
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/60K2KT36TSQE/19495f023114-screenshoturl.jpg
And now you have two options sit there and wait it out or dc but there's a penalty yes the first penalty is fine but imagine multiple games that day it can get frustrating and your forced to sit there and wait it out cause you don't want a longer penalty I think singularity is fine and when he's actually played he's not that bad to face if you know what your doing but when he's played like this it's extremely unhealthy for the game and needs to be adjusted in some way
"Going next" is an epidemic as it is, we should not be encouraging people to do it more.
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There's a great video that explains not only the brackets by why some players perceive things differently than others:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ie4ND-HLp8 -
@Bookern said:
Chaos shuffle seems to heavily pick useless perks or bottom pickrate perks like No Miter for Survs and Soul bond for Killers i have yet to have gotten any meta or frequently used perks while playing
Considering there are hundreds of perks in the game, and both sides have maybe a dozen or so useful ones, it shouldn't surprise you that you get all useless ones.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Agree. Especially because those players dont know their MMR. E.g. I face Otz from time to time, but this does not mean that my MMR is as high as his. It just means that I went over the Soft Cap, but I can still be miles under his MMR.
Let alone that people who claim to be high MMR lose games all the time (according to them). This does not add up. Plus, it is unlikely that they are on a special Server with only good players, while others experience random Matchmaking.
And this is what happens - it is random Matchmaking. MMR basically only separates new players from experienced players, I think the vast majority is above the Soft Cap and therefore in one big pool of players. That BHVR also prioritizes queue times over Matchmaking-Fairness adds to this. You can get a strong Killer/Survivors in one game and in the next game the other side plays like they dont know if they are playing DBD or Minecraft.
MMR is actually in 4 brackets:
- 0-649 mmr
- 650-899 mmr
- 900-1399 mmr
- 1400+ mmr
The vast majority of players are in that 900-1399 mmr mark. When BHVR releases data about "high mmr" players, they are likely talking about that 1400+ bracket. So in your case you are probably in that top bracket with otz. But for example it is theoretically possible for you to be like 1400, and otz can be 2100 for example.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875218#Comment_3875218
Monster in VHS was pretty good at past beginner level and quite often easy once you made it past the insane skill floor. The cascading effect of Monsters leaving was because VHS balanced around the top and didn't throw the new Monster players a bone. That's why there were so few Monsters; from balancing for the top almost exclusively.
That is the opposite though, new players would be playing against new players, so it wouldn't be the case. VHS was horrible to play as a monster and nobody wanted to be the monster in general.
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@DestroyerBG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875302#Comment_3875302
yet they all have one thing in common. Spam your power until you down the survivor while not needing any skill whatsoever. Do you think this is fun to deal with. Every health state taken by these killers is just them spamming their power until they hit me without thinking.
See what i mean people?
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@DestroyerBG said:
eh tbh if the player dislikes the killer a lot I cant blame them. I would always just give up against trickster, singularity and xenomorph because they have no counterability anyways so why even play with them. I completely agree when someone refuses to participate with a broken killer. But yeah some just give up for no reason sometimes which is not really good at all
"Going next" against these killers is an insane take, all 3 of these killers are below the average in terms of kill rate.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875241#Comment_3875241
The only way it was true for Evolve was if you played against a super efficient team of hunters (rare in and of itself) who were out of your league. Even then if you brute forced one of them out early and made it 3v1, you stood a solid chance at winning depending on your monster. You could snowball in that game pretty easily depending on your monster.
Sounds familiar doesn't it? Again, read what i wrote, i said that at the higher levels of play, monster was too difficult to play against good teams.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875218#Comment_3875218
Not true for Death Garden, Evolve, or F13.
F13 was a special case due to the lawsuit, i never actually played death garden, but it was definitely true for evolve. I have the limited edition one that i bought on Xbox back in the day and was playing day 1, and 100% that was true for evolve.
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@TwinsMain2004 said:
He posted this to reddit a little while ago so im just gonna copy and paste it here if the mods dont mind as i think he says some interesting things about the killer role is horror asyms
Disclaimer: after 6 fun years of working on DBD with an amazing team, I've moved on to another studio to work on something new. These opinions are mine, and not those of Behaviour Interactive.
First, it's extremely hard to set up an asymmetric game of any kind that works. From a game design perspective, you're not able to assume that any rule fair to one side is fair to the other. Worse, asym horror games tend to put multiple players against 1. There are a whole host of reasons this is difficult to get right, but that's a huge topic better left to another discussion.
With regard to games that set out to compete with DBD, they often start by saying "we're gonna fix X which is a deep problem with DBD". Why not learn from the competition, right? Well, sometimes it then turns out that X is something that makes DBD work.
I was a VHS (Video Horror Society) early adopter, and a Superfan (large DLC purchase); I'll use this one as an example. Much of the discussion of how this game works comes from my 110 hours spent with the game as well as discussions with my Twitch audience.
VHS failed in large part because the Monster couldn't tunnel or camp. It seems clear to me from the design that they looked at DBD and figured that the biggest thing its players hate is tunneling and camping, so they eliminated those tactics.
But that meant the Monster ended up fighting 4 Teens most of the match, and there was no way to deal with a particularly difficult Teen. You'd finally kill one, and then they'd get the book of the dead and you're at 4 again. It was miserable to play Monster, so few did. I am a DBD Killer main, and I even gave up playing Monster because it was so miserable to play. I'd rather wait in a 15-minute Teen queue and play something else in the meantime than deal with that.
The difficulty in killing one Teen early also made its 25-minute matches feel very samey the whole way. DBD matches have phases: 4 Survivors, 3 Survivors, do we try to finish gens or hatch jockey, hatch hunt. That results in large shifts in play style over the course of one match. There are issues with some of these stages, but that they are present adds variety to each match.
There was also the ping system, another response to something DBD is perceived to be lacking. It hurt the atmosphere and made it much more gamey. Also, it meant Teens had a much easier time learning to coordinate against the Monster.
Then there were the Journeys; these were sets of challenges for players to do to earn stuff. Nice in principle. But some of these encouraged VERY bad behavior on the part of the Teens. Imagine you're losing as Monster; the Teens have one more Sigil of the four to take to win. Instead, they keep chain stunning you with the other attack types in order to fulfill their Journey requirements. They're encouraged not to win, but to bully the Monster for their unlocks. We can't fault the players... they're just behaving in the ways that the systems encourage.
But part of this issue steams from another thing they wanted to fix from DBD: "We want more interaction between the Killer and Survivors, and we'd like to be able to hinder the Killer more than we can in DBD." One reason DBD works is that the Survivors try to do gens to open the gates, and the Killer tries to stop them. It's never about stopping the Killer, but delaying them until you can get the gates open and escape. In VHS the Teens want to kill the Monster and the Monster wants to kill the Teens. I would argue that the goal structure being set up like this means DBD can give the most important thing to the players: the sense of an unstoppable Killer. When I boot into a game as a Killer, I don't want to be afraid there might be a Survivor lurking around any corner with a weapon. I want to go in and watch them scatter like rabbits when I come near.
This brings up what's called "ludonarrative dissonance". When you see VHS or DBD advertised, you are being sold "80s movie monster runs around murdering civilians". What you get in DBD is largely that. In VHS, it's considerably harder to kill individual Teens, and so you're not getting what you were sold. You may have a difficult time actually completing kills in DBD as it's difficult to learn to play. But that's a totally different feeling than what you get in VHS where so many systems and rules are set up to make it systemically difficult to kill a Teen.
It's easy to give reasons like "DBD has the licenses", "it has more content", or "it's already established" as reasons for competitors' failures. Or that "they didn't market it right", or "their early access was not done well". VHS shipped with 3 monsters, 6 teens, and 3 maps. Over the course of their one-year early access, they released 2 new Monsters, 1 Teen, and 2 Maps. They tweaked a lot of things, and listened to player feedback. It was very impressive for such a small team.
But my experience as someone who was on the DBD team for 6 years and having played VHS and Evil Dead quite a lot is that these competitors just aren't as much fun.
Like it or not, despite its flaws, DBD is a brilliant game that's just fun to play and competitors have to beat that part to survive. Focusing on DBD's flaws and fixing those first is the wrong way to go about it.
I'm never happy when my fellow game developers slave away on a game for years (VHS was in the works for 5 years) and then fail and lose their jobs. They worked hard, they cared about their game, and it's clear they put everything they had into it. The studio behind VHS unfortunately appears to be gone now, and that's a shame.
When you look at every asymmetrical game that has failed there is one thing that is similar to all of them.
The game was balanced in a way where playing the "1" or the "killer" or the "monster" or whatever else, was impossible at high levels because the game was balanced for "casual" players, and since, by definition, most of the players in the game were "the survivors" or "the hunters (evolve)" and whatever else.
This leads to a cascading effect where,
- at high levels, nobody wants to play monster, so they quit or switch to the survivor side
- In order to deal with queue times, the devs expand the queue system to get matches quicker
- Lower skill monster/killer players start going against these high level teams and losing more and more
- They decide to quit
- Queue times increase for everyone
- Suddenly there are no monster players left
- Everyone quits because it takes 10+ minutes to find a match that you might play for 5 minutes.
I have been playing Asym games since Evolve, and most of them have died precisely for this reason. Playing the "monster" SHOULD make you feel powerful, but in an effort to balance for the other side (because there are more players) they make them super stressful to play where a single mistake ends the game, and nobody wants to do that.
DBD has also been like that, and i feel it still has a ways to go, because at the highest level this game is still a joke, but unlike those games you have to get pretty high up in DBD before that happens. In DBDs current state, its definitely the best it has ever been (even if there is still work to do). If DBD was like it was at launch with literal infinites, 2-3 times the number of pallets and so on? The game would be as dead as the others.
It would be really interesting to see what would happen if an Asym game came out specifically designed in such a way that the monster was probably going to win every time, and what might happen to the game then, would people not want to play the survivor role because they are going to lose? What if they made it fun to play. For example, look at Battle Royale games, the reason they succeed is because they are fun and you lose most of the time still. Because they are designed in a way where, you go in against 100 people and know you probably are going to lose, but when you win, it feels amazing because you won against all odds! What if there was an Asym game like that?
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@Alicia_Tried6041 said:
Why don't we just give survivors just 1 hook state? May as well since every killer wants to slug slug slug! I mean slugging bypasses 8 hook states anyways so why even have 3 for each survivor?
@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/437192/i-have-an-idea
Why don’t you post some of your own killer gameplay so you can show us how easy it is to win with a 12-hook game. If you’re going to complain about killer tactics, then maybe you can help by showing killers how to play “the right way”.
This
Record some matches of you playing as killer "The right way" and show us how well you do.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872092#Comment_3872092
The game is about killing people on hook, not bleeding out for zero reason on the floor.
^ this.
Two pretty obvious things:
- Bleedouts give next to no Bloodpoints.
- The game is designed around Survivors basically having 3 "Lives". If it would be only 1 "live" (aka either bleeding every Survivor out or getting all 4 slugged and one-hooking them) Survivors would have to be far stronger.
But Killers know that slugging is extremely strong, even stronger when it is unlikely that anyone has a Perk against it. And doing it during Chaos Shuffle just shows that they are not slugging because Survivors have so many Perks which activate when getting unhooked.
Yeah, it is strong, because hooking survivors has constantly been nerfed over and over again.
The strongest perks in the game for survivors are activated when they are hooked, and most of the killer hook perks around gen defense have been nerfed time and time again. And you wonder why people are slugging now?
They need to stop punishing killers for doing killer things, balance the game around HOOKS instead of kills, and encourage killers to hook survivors.
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@jamally093 said:
This means
Lights out
Choas shuffle
2v8
Note indefinitely does not count unless you have a proper suggestion fix que times because 2v8 destorys that. Events like Winter Solstice, Anniversary and Hollowed Blight do not count as those are events that got turned into modifiers.
Indefinitely for 2v8. There is a reason it destroys queues because everyone wants to play it. Its clear that people want a more casual DBD experience.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
In all seriousness, why not? Why not test new gameplay systems and mechanics? Why not test funky or busted addon ideas just to see how they would work?
I want to see BHVR experiment. I want to see them try new things, break the game and build it back up again.
They shouldn't do it on PTB, they should do it on live. Make a separate queue for "Experimental" you get more players that way. And they can test things like "no bloodlust" or "early game warmup" or "basekit DS" or any other crazy thing they want to see what happens.
Its opt-in, so players don't have to do it, and give a small little bonus for doing it so they get enough data.
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@Testoviron said:
Players have no incentive to stay in a match (bloodpoints are WORTHLESS), and there's nothing to discourage them from leaving.
Matches are also often (considered to be) a foregone conclusion, because the meta for killers is to snowball as hard as possible, in the least fun way possible - by killing a survivor ASAP. It's not the killers' fault, it's just how the game is designed.
So if a survivor feels like a match is going to go poorly for them (someone got downed quickly, the map is hard to play on, the killer is frustrating to face, etc), they prefer to save themselves some time and frustration and go next. And there's no reason for them not to.
So what to do about this issue? The answer is twofold.
1. Give survivors hope. Give them hope that they can escape even if the match is going poorly.
>How though?
By discouraging kill-based snowballing (slugging, tunnelling) and incentivising putting pressure on the entire survivor team.
>And how do you do that?
By making killer wins based on hooks instead of kills (no reason to slug or tunnel if it doesn't win you the game), and by giving the killer bonuses, rewards for hooking (like Grim Embrace does.)
A rubberband mechanic for survivors AND killers would also be a healthy addition to the game. A survivor dying shouldn't drag the rest of the team down with him.
2. Give players a reason to win.
Currently, it is pretty immaterial to a survivor whether or not he or his teammates survive the trial. There are no rewards for surviving. He doesn't miss out on anything by going next.
There's also theoretically no reason for the killer to hook even if hooks are the win condition. You don't get anything for hooking survivors, and killing them might very well be more satisfying to you than meaningless "winning" with no reward.
If there was a ranking system where you could receive cosmetics, charms, status symbols (your rank displayed next to your name), winning would actually mean something.
I think this is what it comes down to.
With such additions, it would also make sense to implement far harsher penalties for going AFK/giving up/disconnecting, to punish trolls who give up no matter what.This is my take on it. Incoherent rant over.
This would all go away if they balanced the game off of hooks instead of kills, made tunneling impossible from a gameplay perspective, and encouraged killers to go for hooks.
My suggestion for all of this is:
- Wins and losses are now base on hooks instead of kills and survivors win or lose as a team.
- 0-4 hooks is a killer loss/survivor win
- 5-7 hooks is a draw
- 8-12 hooks is a a killer win/survivor loss
- Alternatively, if they really don't want to do that, the killer is considered to have "won" if they got at least 1 kill.
- Remove the 4% mechanic
- All survivors now share the 1st (and only the 1st) hook state
- This means that when you hook a survivor, if you tunnel the same one, they are still on the "first hook state" until 4 hooks have happened
- The earliest a survivor can be removed from the game is on the 6th hook, and that is only if you tunnel them out by the time you hit 6 hooks, the game should be nearing its end with the last gen or 2.
- When a survivor is unhooked, they gain a new status effect called Ethereal for 30 seconds. While Ethereal:
- A survivor cannot work on a generator
- A survivor cannot do totems
- They cannot heal other survivors
- They CAN unhook a teammate
- This cancels the effect, and then shows their aura to the killer (to prevent SWF abuse)
- They CAN pick up a slugged survivor
- This cancels the effect, and then shows their aura to the killer (to prevent SWF abuse)
- The intent of being able to pick up teammates and unhook is to prevent scenarios where everyone is on the hook, or slugged a bit better if the survivor chooses to do so while making sure its not abusable by SWFs
- They are invisible to the killer
- They make no collision with the killer
- They are unaffected by any killer perks, addons, or power
- They are unable to be injured by the killer
- They see the aura of all survivors
- They see the aura of the killer when they are within 16 meters of them
- After the effect ends, the survivor is fully healed
- Killer gets a basekit corrupt that lasts 30 seconds
- Killer gets a basekit corrupt on totems that lasts 30 seconds
- Killer gets a basekit 10% off of a gen when kicking
- Killer basekit regression doubled to 0.5 charges per second
- Nerf a ton of gen defense perks, as regression basekit is much stronger.
- Rework all the anti-tunnel perks, because they aren't necessary anymore and will lead to survivors abusing them offensively.
This does several things:
- Survivors can no longer be removed from the game early, the earliest you can remove a survivor is on the 6th hook, which at that point, the game should be nearing the end.
- Tunneling is effectively impossible from the perspective of a killer, with the ethereal status effect, you can't tunnel the survivor.
- Killers are encouraged to hook, because the game is a win or loss based on hooks and not kills
- Killers are encouraged to hook because the ethereal status effect also works against the survivor, meaning when a survivor is hooked, you KNOW they are on a "time out" for the time they are on the hook, and at least 30 seconds after that, where you don't have to worry about them. Giving you time to start another chase with a different survivor.
- Survivors save a little time as a team because when you unhook a teammate you don't have to heal them, they just go on timeout for 30 seconds and are fully healed
- Killer basekit regression is buffed and power is removed from gen defense perks, making it so you can actually have a variety of builds
- Killer basekit gets a boost at the start of the game so they aren't losing 3 gens in the first chase.
There might be some more work that needs to be done at that point, but i would call this our "starting point" and adjustments can be made from there.
Personally i think they should fundamentally rework the entire game to be about feeding the entities "hope" and its less about kills and escapes, and more about doing activities to fill up a "hope" meter, and is entirely different. But, that will never happen, and the above can happen in the current framework of the game, so i'm only suggesting a realistic change that is actually possible.
- Wins and losses are now base on hooks instead of kills and survivors win or lose as a team.
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@Ayodam said:
Pyramidhead is a fairly balanced killer, but he isn’t the only killer people seldom complain about.
People don’t really complain about..:
Demogorgon, Doctor, Trapper, Hag, Dredge, Unknown, and many more killers. Some of these killers have mechanics that are frustrating to deal with but none of them are too problematic. What people—and really, you mean survivors—complain about killers that are oppressive with convoluted counter play.
In scott's video about people "going next" theres a guy who says "i'll keep going next as long as doctor exists" people DC against perkless trapper all the time. Its an epiddemic that has nothing to do with how powerful killers are. People complain and "go next" in every situation.
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3870777#Comment_3870777
you're coming from the perspective of players who play a lot
Let that be a lesson on what DBD is: Pretty f'ing hostile to newbies.
Sure, a newbie doesn't have infinite items and not enough giga-toolboxes to genrush 25 games in a row if you die half the time, but you always have at least one medkit. That's good enough. I remember actually running Ace In The Hole to preserve mostly yellow toolbox charges and using up every last item before prestiging while spending BPs on new characters when I used to play four weeks at a time before not touching the game again for half a year. It wasn't that bad then and now is even less so, BP-wise anyway.
Comparing BP gain to actual games is dishonest. People want both, and they shouldn't be mutually exclusive.
They should not. I merely asked what should be prioritized. I know my answer. I don't want to be stuck in decided games because even if we won I have to assume either it wasn't matchmaking's finest work or killer didn't take the game seriously. So that win would mean nothing to me. I find staying in the game just for the BP weird.
New players aren't the ones "going next" its always the guy with 5k hours.
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Played 10 games yesterday as solo survivor, in 6 of them, someone "went next" this is insane and something needs to be done.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874020#Comment_3874020
No they don't. All killers have the same hitbox, as well as the same lunge distance and hitbox
The only exception I believe is Chucky who has the same hitbox as a Survivor, but lunge I believe is the same
This is correct, all killers have the same hitbox and lunge attack range, and speed, and everything except for the following:
- Myers lunge in tier 1 is shorter
- Myers lunge in tier 3 is slightly longer
- Nurse lunge with her power is slightly shorter
- Wraith lunge out of power is longer
- Spirit lunge out of power is longer
- Chucky hitbox is the same as a survivor's hitbox (allowing him to loop as tightly as a survivor)
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874404#Comment_3874404
Gestures vaguely to every killer perk that activates on a hook. They don't need to buff hooks. You just want all the upside of a mechanic and none of the counterplay from the other side.
Those perks have been nerfed constantly to the point where they are starting to not be worth it anymore unless you stack them. And survivors hate that too.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874463#Comment_3874463
apparently now killers slug because survivors get ds, otr, babysitter, deliverance and so now I guess the devs should just delete those perks so we can get slugged and tunneled while we use perks like diversion and bloodpact.
Its more that, they need to take a look at the fundamental game. I think the game would me much healthier, if, instead of bandaiding everything with a perk, they go back and make tunneling and camping from a base gameplay perspective, impossible. Then balance the game around that, and not punishing the killers for going for hooks. Actively reward getting hooks in a world where tunneling is literally impossible, and you'll see a much more fun game that everyone can enjoy.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874420#Comment_3874420
The goal posts move every time. Killers have been promising to play nice in exchange for survivor nerfs for years now but they’re yet to actually hold up their end of the bargain.
Its more that people are doing what they do with every game, optimizing the fun out of it to find the most efficient strategy for winning. Slugging wasn't really seen as strong because people weren't really doing it much and didn't know the effective way to do it. Tru3 for example has optimized it, by slugging the first person, hooking the next, and then only hooking that one player while slugging the rest. Also it hasn't taken hold as much yet so survivors aren't countering it as hard. I suspect once the meta shifts for survivors to anti-slug perks it might change the math. But until that starts happening slugging will be the most effective way to win as killer.
The other, is that people have been looking for "the next thing" since the last round of gen defense nerfs.
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@fixblitzskin said:
true talent is doing nothing but slugging in every video with knockout because hooking isn’t worth it and choy a smaller dbd youtuber also said he isn’t going to hook anymore and just slug. Is 4 man slugging the newest trend in content creation for killers?
He's not doing it for content, he's doing it because it is more effective. There have been experiments and many threads talking about how survivors get tons of benefits for being hooked, and that the game actually is actively encouraging you to slug as a killer.
Also he isn't slugging 4 people, he has optimized the strategy quite a bit beyond that.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873599#Comment_3873599
Its worth it for points. Thats about it.
When you own every DLC, and have every perk on every character, bloodpoints don't matter so much.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873336#Comment_3873336
once again your overrating this perk. The speed doesn’t last long enough (unless you get 1/4 effects that extends it) and the expose effect is a draw back if you get greedy. Also like how you pointed out why overcome is trash, the perk has to work when your healthy so if you can’t get a heal or you get tunneled the perk does nothing. Also certain killers completely shut this perk down like plague and legion while other exhaustion perks still work. The perk doesn’t make you invincible like old dead hard. You can still hit them through the dramaturgy. It’s a fine b tier perk just not this s tier perk or “the old dead hard”.
Again, you are missing the point. You aren't supposed to use the speed boost the same way you do say a sprint burst. You use it while looping. You loop around something, and then if you aren't going to make it around because the killer is too close, you can use it to guarantee you get to the pallet or window when normally you would have gotten hit instead.
And i also said that it is not as good as old dead hard was. I'm saying that the perks FUNCTION is the same as old dead hard was. And old dead hard for distance was considered a problem because it really had no counter, and wasn't fun to play against.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873037#Comment_3873037
yeah….lithe sprint burst balance landing do exactly what your saying as well. Like I said you’re overrating the perk. Not sure why (well I got an idea) but this is such a bad take
All exhaustion perks behave this way, but they all have some kind of downside or activation requirement associated with them that makes them not perfect. For example:
- Sprint burst requires you to not run, or if you do, you have to spend time "99"ing the perk, but then if you 99 it, you can't stop to repair a gen or anything, it requires you to manage it a bit better. Additionally, sprint burst happens at the start of a chase, so if you see someone sprint off, you can just choose to not take the chase for example.
- Adrenaline only activates in the end game and only once
- Background player is mostly used for flashlight saves and pallet saves, it effectively activates AFTER the killer has already won a chase (assuming they pick the survivor up)
- Balanced Landing requires you to fall from a great height, there aren't as many spots on many maps to do that. Sure some maps have them everywhere, but its far more map dependent and usually requires you to be in only certain areas of the map to get use out of it.
- Dead hard, the current version anyway, requires you to be hooked once in order to get a use out of it. Meaning that if the killer sees you "NOT" using another exhaustion perk, they can probably expect the dead hard better, and know when it is coming because they already hooked you once.
- Head on requires you to jump into a locker, something you probably aren't doing in a chase, unless you dedicate a whole build to it, and even then, it is risky, if you don't time it right, the killer gets a free grab and hook from you.
- Lithe requires you to vault something fast. Which means that if you want it to activate at the "perfect distance" when looping, so you get the most efficient use of it, you can't actually vault things before that time. Meaning that usually you aren't getting the maximum value from this perk that you would the others. The trade off being that it is easier to activate when you want to rather than requiring specific conditions since there are tons of vault locations around the map.
- Overcome happens when you get hit, and again, the killer can clearly see you running super fast, so they have an option there to drop chase, and they already got value, because they injured you, meaning that it gives the killer more options when the chase happens. Additionally, since it only works while healthy, if the killer catches you again before you are healed up, you don't get to use the perk again.
- Smash hit only works on pallet stun, which is often much harder to do than people think. Additionally, if you stun the killer, you already "won" that interaction in the chase, and smash hit isn't giving you that much more value. A good killer will probably end chase there anyway and go after someone else unless the survivor sticks around or the killer has something like enduring.
What about Dramaturgy? Well, its just, there. With no actual downsides when used properly by a skilled survivor. There's no real activation requirement (yes you have to be healthy, but if you are using it "for distance" you should already be healthy) And the downside of the exposed is too short to really get much value of of if used properly. It also can give you some cracked items as well, or let you run for longer, which when it does that, should give you an extra loop around whatever you are looping, extending the chase even further before you have to drop the pallet.
While, it is not as strong as old dead hard for distance, it is comparable in that it achieves the same outcome when used properly. Its just a bit harder to use properly than old dead hard was.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872935#Comment_3872935
“How exactly does a killer counter the speed boost from dramaturgy then?”
Gee idk just hit them? Old dead hard not only have you the dash to make it to the pallet, but the main reason why it was the best perk in the game is because it countered every single power from every killer. It left your character invincible to every attack in the game. If huntress throws her hatchet and you used dead hard it did nothing. If she throws it and you use dramaturgy you still get hit. They are not even close to the same power. Most of the killers have antiloop so the speed isn’t that big of a deal Dead hard rn is still better than dramaturgy. Lithe sprint burst and balanced landing are better as well. You’re overrating the perk. If it was really like “old dead hard” then the perk would be the most used in the game like how it was before 6.1 patch. But clearly it’s not
I think you are misunderstanding, just like old dead hard, i'm not saying you use it to "dodge a hit" i'm saying you use it "for distance" so that you can loop something more than you should be able to. So a situation where you SHOULD get hit, turns into you getting the window or the pallet, just like old dead hard. The power of old dead hard was not in dodging the hit, it was in using it for distance.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872329#Comment_3872329
they are not the same thing
How exactly does a killer counter the speed boost from dramaturgy then? A 25% haste makes them move faster than the killer, so you use it to get a little extra distance to loop around a structure that you would normally not be able to and drop the pallet or get the window. Sometimes it lets you run longer, the scream isn't really that big of a deal, the free item is great, and the exposed effect shouldn't come into play because the idea is you get the window or to a pallet to drop. At that point 12 seconds isn't long enough to catch back up.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872032#Comment_3872032
I explained in the rest of my comment why that is a problem not related to giving up on hook. If the killer leaves everyone on the floor, the game is over and lost, at that point you aren’t ruining the game for anyone else if you have a button to insta bleed out.
You are talking about a very specific scenario of bleeding out 4 survivors on the ground, that isn't what i'm talking about here. I'm talking about the act of slugging in general. You slug survivor A to go after survivor B, and so on. Once all 4 are on the ground, you just pick them up and hook them. Its pretty rare to bleed everyone out forever.