Reinami
Reinami
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- Reinami
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
Are we serious…
The DbD forums are never beating the killer bias allegations.
I think it is generally accepted that at the highest level of play (comp for example) that the game is massively survivor sided. This is why comp generally has specific maps and rulesets they play in order to try and balance the game a bit more into the killers favor.
For example, do you think the best trapper player in the world, could beat the best, even 1000 survivors in the world that often? I would suspect if they played 10 games, the trapper may win 1-2 games at most and probably just due to RNG map generation.
The point though, is that remove these types of check spots, balances the game better at these levels, but on the flip side of it, it doesn't really harm survivors in lower MMR brackets, because again, these types of survivors aren't really using check spots, and probably aren't even aware of their existence. And so it wouldn't really harm lower level play where survivors struggle more.
I'm also making the argument that not having check spots leads to more fun and interactive chases between survivor and killer. Instead of every killer shack chase being exactly the same, where the survivor forces the window 3 times until it blocks, then drops the pallet. You would effectively have a chase where at various points, it becomes a 50/50 mindgame where the killer has a chance to outplay the survivor, and the survivor a chance to outplay the killer. But in a more fun dynamic way, and not just in a "flowchart" sort of way where there is no real skill expression on either side.
Do you have any counterpoints to any of these assertions?
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@notacamper said:
Turns out he was working with the other survivors to tunnel me out, had one on more than one occasion bodyblock me to help Myers catch up. After I was tunneled out, i spectated to see if my suspicions were on point and bore witness to the most pathetic short act of: "Oh yeah, totally not working together" I ever saw with myers downing 2 surviors, waiting about 30 seconds, then picking up one of the downed survivors standing in place to let them go assuming i watched for 30 seconds and left most likely.
He then just sat there and watched them heal the other downed teammate and then let them open exit gate and leave.
I couldn't help but laugh it off, I've seen this BS so many times over the years when I play survivor that its gotten to the point that I have to laugh or i'd of keeled over from a heart attack already due to the amount of rage inducing killer working with survivor situations I've encountered over the years.
I'm guessing you tried to "go next" and were saved and then your team wasn't happy with you.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868145#Comment_3868145
It forces the healer to wake up, thus making his slugging way better.
But if you pick someone up that is slugged, they are probably going to be healed up near the end, so you only have to channel the heal for a fraction of a second, not likely enough time for the freddy to notice it is happening, turn the camera around to find where it is, and then hold the teleport interaction to do the teleport.
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868131#Comment_3868131
This reminds me of how Distortion used to counter so many perks so effectively. Distortion got nerfed pretty big time, this no hooking playstyle will probably get the same treatment. Not having anything be too powerful seems to be a trend.
Maybe, but short of removing knockout, you can't "fix" slugging without also making the legitimate cases of slugging like pallet/flashlight saves weaker.
They have fundamentally made this problem worse patch after patch of nerfing pain resonance, and pop, and all the good gen defense perks around hooking while making flashlight saves easier, not fixing the bugs with flashbang, not fixing the bugs with pallet saving and so on.
They actively discourage hooking survivors patch after patch to deal with "tunneling" and have created a situation where hooking just isn't good anymore.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868131#Comment_3868131
Why aren't people slugging more?
Simple answer. They want to play against people not bots.
I mean sure, i think generally from my perspective i generally "play to win"™ so i use the strategy most effective at making me do that.
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@Jackal7879 said:
I feel like his teleport to injured survivors who are healing is good way to get great pressure but I am concerned about a new slugging play style that might potentially take over for Freddy even though the slug survivor is awake if the healer is asleep he can teleport to chase and slug the healer and with sloppy butcher knock out 3rd seal etc this can make really hard for soloq survivors to play against if there is a way to keep the teleport for only injured survivors(self heal/altruistic) I think It would still be strong and might discourage a Freddy play style to to go for a full 4 man slug
Also his fake pallets are really bad love the snares
Not really, When you get downed you wake up and he can only teleport to you if you are sleeping. so it doesn't really help as much as you think.
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@KerJuice said:
What happened to the idea of making Unbreakable basekit? Now seems like the best time to revisit that.
It needs to do so in a way that doesn't punish legitimate slugging. Similar to the 3-gen mechanic.
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@Garboface said:
I watch tru3ta1ent sometimes and lately I am seeing in videos of him playing killer, he simply slugs everyone but doesn't say why. Today he released a video titled the same as this thread. Why is he playing like this? What point is he attempting to make?
He's been doing experiments lately with different things, and generally people are starting to realize that with all of the perks and basekit things survivors have, survivors have far more options to counter hooking than they do slugging and the counters are just less effective.
Take a look at all the perks that survivors have that interact with hooking or unhooking:
- Babysitter
- Background Player
- Boil Over
- Borrowed time
- Breakdown
- Breakout
- Camaraderie
- Dead Hard
- Decisive Strike
- Deliverance
- Kindred
- Off the Record
- Power Struggle
- Reassurance
- Resurgence
- Saboteur
- Second Wind
- Shoulder the Burden
- Slippery Meat
- We'll Make it
- Wicked
Not to mention all the perks around blinding the killer like champion of light, or flashbang or residual manifest, as well as the basekit BT, the anti facecamp mechanic and pallet saves and toolboxes.
When you look at those perks too, you'll see that:
- Deliverance
- Dead Hard
- Off the Record
- Decisive Strike
- Flashbang + Background player
These are some of the best perks in the game for survivors. There's a reason comp limits them to only 1 per team and why you'll often see SWFs stacking 3-4 of these perks each.
Now what about slugging? Well you have:
- Unbreakable
- We're gonna live forever
- Soul Guard
- No Mither
- Flip -Flop
- Boon: Exponential
Far less perks, and if you look at them, far less effective as well.
- Compare DS to Unbreakable. DS stuns you for 5 seconds, letting them get to safety. Unbreakable you just down them again
- WGLF was already nerfed recently, and by the time someone finds you (thanks to knockout), you probably already healed up most of your bar anyway
- Soul guard is pretty meh as a perk and pretty rare in general, but it is pretty good.
- No mither is a horrible perk, and if people run it you just hook that guy and slug the rest
- Flip-Flop is really only good with power struggle and if you don't pick them up nothing to worry about.
- The boon can be cleansed.
So all in all:
- The best perks in the game for survivors are around being hooked/unhooking
- Survivors have so many Basekit things now around hooks its pretty insane
- It takes 20 seconds to pick up a survivor, walk to a hook then hook them, time you could spend elsewhere
- It takes 210 seconds to die on hook and 240 to die on the ground, not much of a difference when you are saving 20 seconds per down.
- BHVR keeps nerfing the good gen defense perks like pop/pain res which relate to hooks
- Most of the anti-slug perks have counters if you play around them
- You don't have to worry about pallet saves
- You don't have to worry about flashlight saves
- You don't have to worry about flashbangs (which are bugged btw)
- You don't have to worry about sabotage and toolboxes
- You don't have to worry about counting hooks in a world with shoulder the burden (much easier to keep track of the length of their bar)
- You can camp the slug if they are about to die and not worry about Anti facecamp measures
- You get a more chill experience as killer because you just chase survivors and down them and move on.
The only downside really is you lose out on hooking perks yourself, but that is mitigated by things like surge which work without hooking, and also you are getting 20 more seconds back every chase, which lets you apply more pressure faster, so it balances out a bit more.
The better question to have is not "why are people slugging more" the question should be "why AREN'T people slugging more".
Try watching a recent game where tru3 plays his normal stuff, counts hooks, deals with shoulder the burden etc. Now watch one of him slugging and watch how much more chill he can be and how much easier it is for him to do stuff.
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@BroRespectTheBoop said:
So one of our only counter plays against Knight's guards was a bug, not a feature? If you're going to fix this, at least fix his banners so they actually work consistently when you run through them.
The banners work fine, you need to wait until you hear the "horn" sound, that means you can touch the banner. You can't touch it before that or it won't do anything. That is intentional in the design.
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@Slurpin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867399#Comment_3867399
Why bring up this inflammatory remark about one side when evidence of it is against the rules?
The answer: So you can accuse others of baiting you when they ask for you to back up your nonsense.
All you've done is rag on the side you clearly don't like without any evidence because you cannot provide any. You're actively hurting any semblance of a cause you may stand for.
Also, it's baseless.
Because you can literally just go to youtube and type in "making killers dc" and see the videos.
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@Slurpin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867315#Comment_3867315
Convenient. Given I don't know any of them and follow most of the popular content creators for both sides, I'm going to say no, it isn't easy to know which ones. And given we can't give examples, this is all meaningless and I could just say the same thing about killer content creators without having to present any modicum of proof.
But I think reasonable people know "most" don't do this so this is moot anyway.
Its literally a forum rule, and you aren't going to bait me into breaking it.
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@Slurpin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867297#Comment_3867297
Most? Who and where? If it's them outplaying bad players, it's no different than the killer content creators posting incessant 'gimmick build destroys survivor team' videos. I hardly ever see mean spirited videos from either side.
I can't name because that would be naming and shaming, but its pretty easy to know which ones.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866647#Comment_3866647
comp players are also perfectly capable of telling when they're in a public match, though, and I've often seen Knightlight and Zaka get their first kill after 7, 8, even 9 hooks with multiple gens left. they recognize the social contract they signed when playing comp matches does not apply to pubs
The survivors certainly don't. Most of them use it to make "content" of them bullying killers and laughing when they make them DC.
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@cowfarmer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867235#Comment_3867235
Begging for hugtech removal > completely fine
Begging for crouchtech removal > No!!!!!!!
Survivor double standard. Hug tech is an exploit, but crouch tech is fine.
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@wakesafe said:
Yeah we definitely need less Billy and Blight counterplay those Killers were so weak already
Yeah, lets remove "hug tech" because that is an exploit, but "crouch tech" is a "tech"
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@TonTon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866614#Comment_3866614
I'm confused how will we lock on to the survivor healing if we can't see them? Only killer instinct procs everything needs an aura to kick on too to tp
Pinhead box works the exact same way. You get killer instinct on it, and you press the button.
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@TheSubstitute said:
So I just recently posted a thread about how many people think tunnelling is necessary in public matches. Posting a thread, of course, isn't scientific or anything like that but the majority of people (and by a significant margin) who responded said tunnelling was unnecessary overall.
I disagree with the position that tunnelling is necessary due to my personal experience but I at least understand their viewpoint. The people who feel it's necessary feel it's a necessary component of gameplay.
What I don't understand is why, whenever a suggestion is brought into place that combats tunnelling or someone complains about tunnelling, if somebody doesn't feel tunnelling is necessary why would somebody would defend tunnelling? Desire for easy wins, fear of the unknown?
It's kind of baffling to me that if the majority consensus is that tunnelling is not necessary then why is there so much pushback when getting rid of tunnelling or how unpleasant it is to be tunnelled is discussed.
The problem with arguing about "public matches" vs "comp play" for example, is comp players often play in public matches. Hell look at all the youtube content creators and streamers, Hens plays in public matches, Ayrun plays in public matches.
The problem with that is, you can't know what kind of team you are going against until it is too late. If you "play nice" at first, and it turns out its a team that is playing at that level, it is now too late, and you lose. You need to be starting the match from the beginning with this mindset, and then back off once you realize what kind of match it is. The problem there is most survivors "go next" before you have a chance to back off, or of course there are people who don't want to do that "back off" part.
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@jamally093 said:
Not in the mood to waste 4 minutes bleeding out on the ground. Please BHVR just put in a force bleed out so survivors don't have to waste time on the ground and no "Well it's an easy win" yeah but you also realize that it takes little to no skill to do that if your upset because you had a bad match either A. Turn off the game or B. Go to custom matches and let your anger out there
So survivors have MORE ways to "go next"? No, we need to stop with this epidemic not make it worse.
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@xCakeStick said:
Just don't play any Killer then if you're having miserable matches.
I could say the same thing to survivors who "go next"
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866537#Comment_3866537
I don't think they meant Freddy can teleport to survivors if they're healing, but rather Freddy can see sleeping survivors if they're healing while asleep and can teleport to a nearby gen. Considering freshly unhooked survivors are awake, this shouldn't lead to an increase in tunneling or anything.
It is quite literally right there
Key phrase being "The Nightmare can now teleport to completed, blocked, and endgame Generators, as well as any Survivor healing in the Dreamworld.
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@Rudjohns said:
Lol? Just break the pallets and create dead zones on the map
Every pallet break adds 20 seconds to a chase. Predrop 2-3 pallets and 3 gens are done before you get your down.
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@Grigerbest said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865570#Comment_3865570
I think OP meant that: "These perks should be as good as gen regression to be more desirable for killers".
On certain killers (even most of them) I would prefer gen regression over these, ngl.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865569#Comment_3865569
Yeah, lowering your MMR helps. :D
But it should not be a thing. The game needs to be more skill-based, over "Meta-based".
Pretty much.
The game itself is effectively about time efficiency. How efficient can you be with your time.
Why would you take a perk like bamboozle that probably just forces the survivor to go to the next loop and will rarely result in you getting a down faster, when you can just take pain res and buy a full 72 seconds of time. There is no world where bamboozle or any other chase perk can CONSISTENTLY (sure sometimes they are good) buy you a full 72 seconds of time. Which is why running 4 slowdown perks are often better because the slowdown perks basically ALWAYS work. But these other perks are usually situational. So why bother bringing them when there is a chance they won't work?
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
Sometimes I ask myself if posts like this are written by ChatGPT just because of how little sense they make
Dead internet theory.
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@Thesevenspirits said:
If you have 2 players on death hook, possibly 1 dead already and it's still 4 gens remaining. What other indicator do you need to stop sweating and chill a little.
If you were playing against SWF team, you will not be easily winning this way to please take it easy on the SoloQ amateurs.
No one came with flashlights or flash bangs or anything toxic oh yes now is the time the killers chooses to show how power they are but when you meet a real SWF team you come here to complain online.
How do you think SWF teams became a thing in the first place? We are the monsters you made - Burna Boy
Win the game regardless but save your agression for players that deserve it. Please don't take out your agression on amature SoloQ who are still learning the ropes save it for the players that deserve it.
That way the game will be fun for all
You say this, but i have legitimately had survivors complain that i "wasted their time" because i let them escape after killing one early because they killed themself on hook. So i just hooked everyone once or twice, and then chased them around for bloodpoints and they raged because i "Wasted their time"
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8-GsBPnWjo&t=328s
Following the "survivor quitting - epidemic"- video, I found this take, which I honestly agree with. The content creator talks about multiple aspects and offers constructive criticism.
Their suggestions honestly seem very reasonable and got me thinking about a possible solution to not just quitting, but to tunneling, this being buffing the 3v1 for survivors.
3v1 at a certain amount of gens is what makes survivor games hopeless and supports the quitter mentality.
Therefore, the 3v1 could be looked at to both disincetivise tunneling and incentivising the 1v4. Obviously the solution is not as simple because of a multitude of other factors, however, this idea could serve as a great starting point to actually find a base that can be worked upon.
What are your thoughts on this. Not just my take, but the video. If you have the time, please take the time and watch it.
PS.: love the Layton - music.This persons suggestions are horrible honestly.
Adding a mechanic that makes it so gens get bonuses if survivors are hooked just makes the slugging epidemic worse by discouraging killer from hooking survivors.
Secondly, the idea of swapping to a perk like calm spirit if you see a doctor is wild, and the excuse he gives is "well the killer can just go next, and then everyone GETS to go next" is wild to me. Does he just not care about the killer gameplay experience? That really isn't fun at all. Especially since he mentions doctor which is not a problem killer AT ALL.
I do agree with the idea of "unwinnable games" though and understand that is a problem, but i think this person is going about it the wrong way.
The problem is the game is balanced around kills, when it SHOULD be balanced around HOOKS. The problem is that kills are the sole thing that matters. It would be better if it was impossible to eliminate a survivor from the game early. This is why i think that they should remove the 4% mechanic (no more going next) and then make it so survivors SHARE only the FIRST hook state. What this means is, if a killer wanted to hard tunnel a survivor out, they need to hook them 4 times, to burn through the 1st hook state, then hook them again for the 2nd, then finally a 6th time for the kill.
This means the absolute earliest it would be possible to eliminate a survivor from the game, is on the 6th hook. Which is the halfway point. This means no more early kills leading to unwinnable games that still last 10 minutes. Because even if the person is horrible at the game and gets hard tunneled, it should still take the killer a solid 5 minutes before they can just kill that survivor outright. Meanwhile, the other 3 survivors have been on gens and are likely close to completing the objective.
Also, since survivors would only share the FIRST hook state, every survivor still gets 2 hook states of their own, so that if one guy on the team burns through your hook states fast, you still get another shot after your first hook no matter what. So you don't feel like you play well all game but your team doesn't and then you get hooked and immediately die.
From there, you can do some survivor nerfs/killer buffs that more balance the game around hooking survivors, personally i would like to see them heavily nerf all the gen defense perks and make them partially basekit like they do with killer addons. This would make it so killers don't feel like they HAVE to take gen defense perks, and they can take more varied builds. Something like:
- Nerf corrupt, Pop, Pain res, grim embrace.
- Potentially nerf eruption, surge, deadlock etc.
- Basekit corrupt that lasts 30 seconds, but ends as soon as a chase starts (and not on a down)
- Basekit corrupt that works on totems for 30 seconds
- Basekit gen kick to 10%
- Basekit gen regression to 200%
- Basekit mini pain res for 5-10% that shows you which gen blew up (but survivors don't scream) to encourage you to away from the hook. (basically just gives you enough time to run over to that gen before it finishes starting a new chase away from the hook)
We don't need to worry so much about regression now thanks to the 3-gen mechanic. Potentially with these buffs they could go about lowering the gen explosion thing to 6 events instead of 8 since the numbers will be bigger, but obviously do small tweaks along the way to see how things go.
I think this would be a good start to getting the game into a healthier state. Survivors can't give up, survivors can't be eliminated quickly. The game would encourage hooks instead of kills and this would disincentivize tunneling and camping since you have to burn through 6 hooks to get it. On top of that buffing basekit regression and nerfing all the perks means we'll stop seeing the same 6 perks every game from killers, and the game would now be fair for everyone even if you don't have those perks. Given that the game is literally balanced around killers taking gen defense and there are no basekit gen perks, is a big problem for newer players.
There are better ideas i have, but those revolve around completely reworking the core of the game, and is probably something BHVR would not be willing to do at this point, so my above suggestions are a more realistic approach around what i would expect would be in BHVRs power to do.
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@fixblitzskin said:
The nightmare
BUFF- teleport to completed gens
BUFF- paint thinner basekit allows the nightmare to switch from pallets to snares like clown with his bottle
BUFF- placing nares will slow you down to 4.4 m/s instead of 4.0
BUFF- reduce teleport time to 30 seconds instead of being 45
BUFF- basekit cat block
BUFF- Generator explosions and missed skill checks no longer wake up the survivor
These are some changes that I would bank on. some changes I don’t expect but would be cool would be adding a way to make survivors fall asleep manually like how it was.
BUFF- Fire up from 4% per token to 6%
BUFF- Remember me will be changed to work like no way out and no longer have the obsession as a mechanicBUFF- Wake up will work like empathic connection and show the person who has it.
idk what they will do to vigil.
Deep wound changes- Screen no longer darkens as deep wound goes onI suspect similar things, but probably not as significant as yours.
- Teleport to completed gens, and exit gates
- Z-block basekit
- Pallets basekit, can swap them like clown
- Fireup buff
- Remember me reworked to discourage tunneling the obsession out. (probably a nerf, but make it work on hitting any survivor, like a STBFL type thing) but still hurts the obsession.
- Wake up probably some kind of buff or secondary thing.
- MAYBE slightly buffing his movement speed to 4.2 when using his power (but i doubt it)
- Realistically i don't think he should get slowed at all, his power right now is literally just a worse clown, its smaller, slows him down (clowns doesn't) and it only works when they are sleeping.
- Maybe an addon pass.
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One of three possibilities based on this i think.
- It is an anti-tunnel bar, where if you are being chased by the killer while you have deep wound, the second bar starts to go down, and after it goes down all the way, the deep wound disappears, or maybe you can mend while running, or some other shenanigan.
- Its a mechanic that goes down slowly if the survivor runs while not in a chase and if it goes down, then the deep wound timer starts going down even if they run, forcing them to actually remove the deep wound instead of just running around the map not being chases (typical strategy is to run to a gen or something and just do it then start mending right before the timer goes off against say a legion).
- The second bar is your visibility, and if you are being chased it doesn't go down, but if you are not being chased it does, and when it goes to 0 it makes it really hard to see like it does now, but if you are actively being chased it won't punish you, only if you aren't mending.
I suspect it is the first, because right now deep wound is a hard counter to dead hard. If you know someone has dead hard, one of the best things to do is tunnel them right off the hook, because then they can't dead hard. So its probably going to nerf that mechanic.
It also looks like the screen is less cloudy/bloody, so they probably changed that as well.
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@Na1ts1rhc said:
Tunneling and slugging is encouraged (Edit: maybe not encouraged but intended perhaps?) by the devs and the hate you have for it is ignored. It's built into the game that you should target players with more hook states and you should slug people to avoid saves. The fact that survivors are so comfortable DEMANDING that these things get 100% removed from the game entirely is a troublesome sign of things to come. I won't be the first nor last killer main to admit that killers have it really sweet especially right now. How ever I just need to speak my piece about these issues that players have been complaining about since the dawn of daylight (I know I'm funny ha ha). As a killer player I understand I don't need to tunnel or slug to secure a 4k and it is more gratifying that way anyhow. But people who don't have the time nor bank account to buy every killer and grind out their prestige to share their perks. (I'm talking to you base game barney's. That's right I know you slug because it's hard to get any advantage over no life survivors when the only viable perks you have in your kit are absolute trash.) This will probably come off as bait but I seriously wish that we could all have a healthy discussion about these 2 issues that are so polarizing.
I as well as many other killer players are open to changes to these two systems. I read a good post today by DNet89 called "Anti-slug Ideas" and honestly they are straight up cookin' with these suggestions. BHVR did something about face camping that didn't ruin the killer experience and helped survivors tremendously, they can do it again people just need to be more open minded. I know it's hard to do that when your past 5 games you sat face down in virtual dirt for 15 minutes straight. But I personally feel as if people are looking to tip the scales in their favor instead of finding common ground. Am I wrong?Tunneling and slugging are the result of the devs balancing the game around the one thing they think is important, kills. You know, like hockey? All that matters are kills, not how you get them. Instead, they should be looking at things from the standpoint of HOOKS, not kills, because kills do not equal skills because kills will result in people taking the shortest path possible to that goal.
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@TonTon said:
I seen many CC and people say STB is an extremely strong perk that will change DBD.
Except in my many matches I haven't seen this perk at all except once and they just used it to go next faster.
Why is nobody using this perk?
Like most of these types of things that are really strong, in solo queue its a pretty bad to okish perk, but in the hands of a coordinated SWF it is extremely OP.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3862802#Comment_3862802
I think you might have misunderstood me. When I said you don't want to keep someone around when they want to leave, I meant that you do not want to prevent them from leaving the match by removing the 4%, for the reasons I described above. I'd rather let them leave than put up with their griefing.
I think you are misunderstanding ME.
You remove the 4% mechanic, and you harshly punish people for griefing with bans. Even permanent ones if the griefing is bad enough. You'll find very quickly that the griefing goes away entirely and becomes very rare.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3862778#Comment_3862778
Eh, not really. Every time someone gets saved when they're trying to throw, they just sabotage the match for the other teammates. I just had this happen yesterday, and clipped it to boot. Yes, I reported that person for griefing, but we'll never know if anything will be done about it.
It's just yet another painful reminder that if someone wants out of the match, you do NOT want to keep them around.
Yes, now you are getting it, and you simply ban those people, its a problem that will go away real quick when they do that.
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@CrypticGirl said:
Higher DC penalties would only lead to more people throwing on hook and not leaving bots for the remaining Survivors. But I know Killers wouldn't care about that.
That said, I wouldn't oppose ending the match if there were only bots left. I personally wish they hadn't added bots in the first place. I feel like they cause more problems than they solve.
Almost like they should punish people for throwing matches and remove the 4% mechanic. Would solve a lot of problems.
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@Equinox_One said:
I just realized something. Bear with me, I'm going somewhere with this one.
When I play killer, the pattern with matchups has, for the last while been something like:
Survior 1: 10k hours. Absolute beast. I cannot catch them unless I force an engagement somewhere weak.
Survivor 2: 1-3k hours. Intermediate player. I can catch them but I have to work for it.
Survivors 3 and 4: 300-500 hours a piece. Low intermediate. I generally roll over them.
So we have 1 survivor that outclasses me and has about triple my hours. 1 who is about right. 2 who struggle.
Now this isn't the SBMM rant you expect - it's more…I can't think of many games where, at 500 hours played, I'd still consider myself a near beginner. Not even games like Starcraft 2 or League.
What is it about DbD that makes it like this, where the learning curve is a vertical wall and the skill floor is sky high?
Is there some way to make it a little more accessible?
Because DBD is not a "skill based" game it is a knowledge based game. The person with the most knowledge likely wins the game. And because of the fact that we have hundreds of perks, 38 killers with 20 different addons (some that completely change their power making them almost a new killer), 20 realms with 59 different maps, RNG map generation on many of them making learning how maps are generated matter, it takes thousands of hours to understand all that.
If i'm an FPS player, playing call of duty and have 500 hours, i can probably still click heads about as well as someone with 8000 hours and have things come up closer to even because knowledge isn't as important in those types of games and clicking heads in one game isn't much different than clicking heads in another game. And in DBD very few of the "skills" you use carry over from other games.
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This is still occurring and is still happening and has lead to survivors getting saves with flashbangs when they should not be able to.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860161#Comment_3860161
I played pre MMR.
It was worse. So much worse.
Streamers and even a Fog Whisperer would openly derank, which was easy as hell to do. I quit a few times starting out because of how hard I'd get pooped on, game after game after game. I think I've still got photos from the era of the 3-4man SWFs who sat at newbie ranks and just rolled people all day.
MMR isn't perfect. It sometimes poops the bed, especially when lobby dodges happen. Us not being able to see our number and our opponents' number (postgame) makes it impossible to know what's happening when a really weird game comes along.
However, unless I stop playing in an SWF as a survivor (I'll start losing endlessly because I'm out of my depth MMR wise I think) or there's a lobby dodge when I'm on killer, it's actually not too bad most of the time. I mostly face other people with 3-9k hours which is about my range. I think I 'win' about half of my matches (3k or 3o).
They'll never show us the number, because then people would realize how awful it really is.
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@danielmaster87 said:
There's countless killer add-ons like this, where their design is just terrible for what your game plan could ever possibly be. Like, this add-on gives 70 seconds of Mangled and Hemorrhage, given you actually meet the ridiculous requirements (getting a claw trap on someone is pretty difficult). But 70 seconds is the length of a hook state. If they just save the person at the last second, you get zero of that effect against their next heal.
Its less to do with that and more to do with the change they made to mangled/hemo. It used to be permanent, so if you hooked them when they got unhooked the heal would take longer. This still happens, but with the duration its less likely that it will still be active when you finally, pick them up, walk to a hook, hook them, they get saved, they run to a safe(r) place, and start healing, 70 seconds likely will have passed.
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@Equinox_One said:
TL/DR: A big part of why I find myself playing 'sweaty' half the time is just how BM survivors are when they win. Killers can be BM too, but nowhere near as frequently. I wonder how many killers sweat and slug because it's better to be cursed out by sore losers than gloated at by sore winners?
OP: Trying to play chill during the event this afternoon. Silly themed builds, mostly playing for snowman jumpscares and laughs. As long as survivors are mannered and at least trying to interact with the event I'm happy to let everyone get some BP/tome challenges done and I'll maybe kill 1-2 to pip and let the rest go.
Game 1: Bubba. 3 fun survivors, one insanely BM Ace (why is it always an Ace?). Teabags after every pallet drop. Gets cocky so I happily tunnel him out and let the remaining 3 go. Get asked why I tunneled in postgame, I laugh and say that he was BM. Get 'oh come on bruh its not that deep stop being so serious its the internet'. I facepalm and move on.
Game 2: Shoe Hag. Fun game, 2 hook everyone, kill one to pip, let rest go. Great banter in postgame.
Game 3: SM Myers. Incredibly stacked 3man SWF and a good Nancy. I'm running a meme build. 4 hooks. Get teabagged from gate until I finally chase everyone out.
Game 4: Ghostface. Maybe SWF or maybe just a really strong team. Yet again, 4 hooks all game, 3 of which I got by trading in endgame. Teabags and GGEZ in postgame.
Game 5: Ghostface. Claudette kills self on hook on first down. I just wipe everyone and go next, not wasting my time. Felt a bit bad.
Game 6: Trapper. Crazy 4man SWF. One player with almost 15000 hours. Didn't get a single hook. Teabagging from exit gate, letting me down but then just endlessly body blocking, flashlights and sabo, would NOT leave. Finally endgame collapse kills them all. Clearly a SWF trying to keep MMR low.
Game 7: Nemmy. Full SWF. Get lucky with an early down then a second hook and T2 at 5 gens because they tried to sabo and messed it up. They then proceeded to hide around the map, avoiding AFK crows. Postgame 'tryhard killer.
Game 8: Billy. Playing around with Weave, Franklins, Insidious and Primer Bulb (stops instadowns from saw). Not SWF but strong and serious group, 1 hook all game. I finally get a second hook in basement, endgame. Rest just leaves.
Now annoyed, I throw on Grim, PR, DMS and Disc (my go to 'serious' build), fire up Artist and end up winning 3 games easily, back to back. Get asked why killers are playing so sweaty. When I respond that I'm tired of losing to people who don't want to meme around (and getting BM'd for my trouble), am told that I'm oversensitive and 'killer need a sense of humor'.
I give up and go play survivor.
Ugh.
If it isn't the consequences of using MMR.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
Patch 6.1.0 changed a large amount of perks for both Survivor and Killer and ultimately shaped the game to what it is today, however, I would love to look back at the perks and content changed in Patch 6.1.0 and see how well the changes hold up in current DBD compared to at the time.
KILLER
First off, I think it would be really important to analyze how the Overcharge and Eruption changes in Patch 6.1.0 ultimately shaped the meta in the months following Patch 6.1.0.
Overcharge and Eruption were insanely power perks (mainly against SoloQ) after the release of Patch 6.1.0 and could further be paired with other Generator-kicking perks such as Call of Brine or Oppression. The strength of these perks was insanely high compared to the amount of immediate effort needed to use them, you got a lot of regression over time for basically doing very little.
This ended up leading to heavy 3-gen playstyles, later being further amplified with Killer releases like Knight and Skull Merchant that lead to Overcharge, Eruption, and Call of Brine being gutted altogether.
Keep in mind that instant regression effects like Pop Goes were nerfed in Patch 6.1.0 leading to very little options for Killers to use outside of using what was the meta at the time. This unfortunately left Killer in this really weird spot where a lot of regression was really not the same or awkward to use. This is among the many things that I consider to be the biggest failure point of Patch 6.1.0; the Killer meta will always be regression and slowdown, and all the Patch served to do was shift things around without exactly solving the issue.
SURVIVOR
Survivor perks were severely nerfed during Patch 6.1.0. Dead Hard was changed to an Endurance perk and continued to plague matches and was often complained about (I personally had no issues with it though). Anti-tunnel perks like Decisive Strike were heavy nerfed, while anti-tunnel perks like Off The Record were buffed.
Specifically with Off The Record, it was insanely easy to counter just by hitting the Survivor immediately off the hook, and since Decisive Strike was insanely situational or required good positioning, it lead to a higher increase of tunneling since Survivors had no meaningful way to counteract tunneling. With the changes to slowdown in the patch, the game saw a massive increase to tunneling since there was little to no risk in doing it, this would continue to affect the game for months.
Furthermore, there were perks that were nerfed only to have their effects (mostly) reverted. The best example of this is Iron Will and Stridor. Iron Will was nerfed from 100% reduction in Grunts of Pain to 75%, and would be disabled while Exhausted. Stridor was changed to proportionally respond to these changes. Iron Will would later be reverted back to 100% reduction in Grunts of Pain but would keep the Exhaustion effect; Stridor would also be reverted back to its former self.
Likewise, Pharmacy received a buff/rework to make it more powerful but through direct and indirect changes to the perk it became worse until eventually it was reverted back to its original version because the newly buffed/reworked version was just objectively a downgrade compared to the original effect. The perk will (most likely) remain niche but it fills a specific niche that people like enough to warrant using.
Honestly. I think Patch 6.1.0 is among DBD's biggest failures. (CLOSING THOUGHTS)
A majority of the changes were incredibly short-sided and unfortunately has left a lot of perks off in a worse state than before, while the perks that were buffed in the update continue to be niche and dont stand as meta options or picks.
It is also important to note how it impacted DBD's ingame culture by increasing tunneling overall and leading the game to force basekit changes to deal with problematic playstyles because a lot of existing issues were just made further worse or were more more apparent to the playerbase.
Unfortunately a lot of the changes from the Patch also pushed the game towards one of the most hated meta to be in the game, the Generator-kicking or 3-gen meta.
This being said. Failures are important, they shape what we are or what we want to be, what is important is that we learn from failures for the sake of self-improvement… and I think this could very well apply to DBD.
EXTRA STATEMENTS
I know Patch 6.1.0 was forever ago, but I feel like the impact it has had on the game still affects the game today. I personally think it might be the most influential Patch the game has ever received. I would love to see a timeline where the ideas and changes made were never finalized and never came out, just to see how different DBD would be today compared to said alternative timeline, since Id imagine them to be very different.
I also wanted to make this since a lot of DBD Forum threads always talk about the now but often never reflect on the past. Retrospective content can often be hit or miss, but I wanted to give my own shot at it and see how it's taken.
On the killer side i'd like to see the gen kick perks be buffed back up. With the 3-gen system in place those perks would be far less oppressive today than they were back then.
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I put down
Freddy for a Rework
Skull Merchant for an Update
Pinhead for a Tweak
Pyramid Head for an addon pass.
Freddy rework is mostly self explanatory, his current version just isn't "freddy" it doesn't feel like freddy. His original version had its problems, but thematically it felt like freddy. On top of that, he is just weak in a way that simple numbers tweaks won't fix.
For Skull Merchant, i thought she was fine before TBH, people just hated playing against her because of how she used to be. Nothing she did was really that much of a problem. Even now, people just DC or die on purpose against her and she's one of the worst killers in the game. They need to bring her back up to par, do some tweaking and turn her into what they originally intended her to be a "build your own killer" Her power should basekit be about using drones for information, and hurting survivors if they stay in them too long. From there, the addons should change how she plays and what she does. That way people can tweak what they want her to do.
For pinhead, i feel he is one of the better designed killers and just needs some numbers tweaks. I'd like him to have his chains be a bit better, but his box be a bit weaker. He shouldn't break his own chains for 1, and his camera switching should get snappier like we have with later releases like houndmaster and singularity. And also the perk fixated should not be a hard counter to him. Beyond that, the box should be nerfed a bit to be less annoying. That way the RNG element is weaker, but the more skill-based element is stronger.
For Pyramid Head again i feel this is mostly self explanatory. He literally has 3 good addons and all of them are just upgrades of the same thing, and even THEN they aren't THAT great. Almost every addon needs to be reworked to do something useful.
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@MaddieMage said:
Every event we get posts with people complaining that people are c on big into the fun silly event modes with their full META builds, double IRI add ons and items and stomping people in 5 minutes. This is exactly why a casual and comp game mode will never work in this game.
There is literally an option to just play the normal mode if you don’t wanna just mess around and have fun in the event but people still come to the event to sweat. Why? Because they know most of the people in the event just wanna play around so they’re not really gonna try, therefore they can cakewalk to an easy 4K or escape. Because let’s be honest, it’s not to farm BP. The event offering for this is absolute garbage for BP when it works and it’s currently not even working. It’s bugged to crap right now.
Same thing would happen in casual mode. The people who wanna play like a party fun game will be dealing with the comp people because let’s be real…. the competitive players don’t want to play comp mode. It’s too hard. They would actually have a challenge and have to try to get their wins and they don’t want that. They want easy 4Ks every match or escapes for their ego. So many people who play this game don’t actually want to learn to play their killers or counter killers, they don’t want to take the time to become skilled. It’s easy wins because “winning is fun and makes me feel good about myself” so win as easy as possible at all costs is the goal.
So yeah I think we can stop asking for separate game modes now. It won’t work.
Casual modes can actually have different balance where perks are disabled or do different things in different modes.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859079#Comment_3859079
Both sides have good perks for both of these needs that are powercrept in comparison to the best perks. Babysitter and Blood Rush are both really good perks, but they aren't used because they aren't broken as DS and OTR. On the killer side, Surge, Oppression, and Dying Light aren't terrible either and can be used for that matter.
Also, killers tunnel to diminish gen efficiency at the end, and survivors do gens quickly to get things done fast before the first survivor dies. If you ban the best perks for both matters, it balances itself out to some extent.
That's because the game is balanced around those best perks, that is precisely my point.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
There are currently 276 perks in the game, and let's be honest, only 15% of them are used consistently. Not only that, but the perks that are used consistently have been like that since they were released (mostly). The meta is pretty stale and you see the same stuff every game.
On the other hand, when some obscure perk gets buffed to become good or overturned, everyone rushes to use it, then the community complains about, and BHVR has to rush to release a hotfix nerfing said perk instead of letting the community get used to it before making a decision. I was like this with Thrill of the Hunt and Boil Over for example. This doesn't let BHVR get experimental with perk tweaks and updates, since any thing bold they want to pull out might just cause chaos in the community.
That's why I say there should be a perk ban mechanic, where the killer chooses 4 perks to ban and each survivor chooses 1 perk to remove. Every player picks their band on the first 30 seconds of the lobby and then on the last 30 seconds it locks, allowing each player to adapt their build accordingly.
Instead of using Counterforce to deal with Thrill, just ban the perk. When playing Spirit, ban Iron Will so you don't get hardcountered by it. Did BHVR release a new broken perk? Ban it until they fix it. Want to shake the meta up? Ban the meta perks so the other side has to use more underground stuff.
And, for those of you who may say "oh I need X perk to win". Lobby dodging once you see the bans would still be a possibility, since you are only locked from leaving it in the last 15 seconds.
This only works if they make other perks good. Both sides have maybe 10 good perks among them.
The game is effectively balanced around survivors taking anti-tunnel perks, and killers taking gen defense perks.
If they make tunneling impossible from a gameplay perspective so those perks aren't needed, and also buff basekit gen regression to be viable without perks, you could easily rework these perks and you'd see a much larger variety of perks and then maybe you could create such a system.
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@WalterBlack said:
If Killers and Survivors have something to do during the endgame, it'll encourage actual engagement during the endgame (e.g. not just standing still, waiting for Survivors to leave), If the Survivors / Killers choose not to engage one another, at least you'll have something to do to earn points.
Thoughts? I know this might end up making Endgame Collapses last even longer than they already do, but if you encourage both parties to delve deeper into the map to earn points, maybe it'll get more exciting?
The best fix imo is to make it so if they stand inside the exit gate for say, 10 seconds, the gate gets blocked for them until they leave the exit gate area. Then make it so if the killer hits you with anything, it blocks the gate for 5 seconds.
This would fix it overnight, because killers could punish them for trying it.
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@danielmaster87 said:
The whole scourge hook mechanic is just bad design. Ideally, it's made the way it is so that the killer has to go to 1 specific hook, as opposed to another one which might be better positioned in case he wants to come back. But being limited to only 4 and having their spawns be random instead of equally spaced means that the killer straight-up doesn't get to use their perk some matches, which can literally cost them the game.
And people are calling that good design: "Sometimes, the killer shouldn't get to use their perk that they equipped. Otherwise, it's mindless/skilless." But imagine that applied to a survivor perk. Imagine, because of some random RNG thing, you should have been able to use DS or Dead Hard because you met the conditions, but got locked out from doing so. It would be a riot. I know it's hard to draw these comparisons but, well, there isn't anything quite like bad hook RNG in the game.
The simplest response to this argument I've heard is, "Well, if we made a scourge hook perk work for every hook, then it wouldn't be a scourge hook, would it?" It's a moot point. If that aspect of the perk(s) must go, so be it. You can't use lore or original design limitations to say, "You're not allowed to balance this perk in this way." A wise man recently said, "If something exists in your game, you have to ask the question: 'How does this improve the game?'."
Really the whole thing would be fixed if they just made scourge hooks evenly spaced. Put 1 in each corner of the map, and then maybe a 5th one right in the middle, that way a killer wouldn't have RNG prevent the hook from being used, but also the hooks are too far apart so survivors can sabo the scourge hook to deny the perk. Which makes them more of a counterplay thing rather than just a pure RNG thing.
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@sickdeathfiend said:
Should take it a step further and allow all players who queue up in solo-queue to quit with no penalty or points loss.
So then every match is just bots? Because thats how you get every match to just be bots.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855136#Comment_3855136
Valve can do that thanks to the revenue steam produced tho, if any of their games flop or they have to cancel a project, it isnt a major loss. However not all developers can have that backup behind them.
That might explain why they can do risky things, but it doesn't explain how a team of 50 people can release that much content and change that many things at once.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
So recently, Houndmaster's add on 'knotted rope' was nerfed massively.
Knotted Rope - basic attack cooldown when hitting grabbed survivors is reduced by 2% (Down from 10%)
If that sounds terrible, it is. BHVR, by their own words, made this add on intentionally horrifically bad and unusable so that way they could 'avoid it being potentially problematic and revisit it in 2025'. Don't believe me? Thats their official statement!https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2T8GO8ZSO8VM/image.png
BHVR has now realized that instead of just balancing their game and making proper adjustments, its more efficient to just nerf something so badly that no one uses it and then MAYBE look at it later on down the line whenever they feel like it.
This is a slap in the face to me. My favorite houndmaster add on was destroyed just like my favorite killer Skull Merchant and BOTH for the same reason. I can't even say that, no one complained about knotted rope literally no one. So just know guys, if anything is overpowered or overtuned, or even if BHVR thinks it MIGHT be overtuned, they will nerf it straight into the ground and wait until they feel like changing it.Best thing you can do is vote with your wallet. For the first time since twins (due to the massive buggy release) i did not purchase the new killer with money and instead used shards. And i will not be spending any money until SM is put back into a playable state.
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@MoZo said:
it’s ironic how fast they nerfed those perks in the 8.3.2 hotfix and now nobody uses the perks.
Machine Learning: not a lot of people used it but ngl when it got value the 60 seconds did feel like a very long time but still didn’t warrant the nerf.Zanshin: even when they buffed it to show survivors that drop pallets I still barely seen people use it. It’s mainly only good on Phead since pre dropping is ok against him
Predator: No one used it but nurse and even now nurses don’t use it anymore and just opted back to nowhere to hide since it’s busted asf on her.
WGLF: helped counter slugging but apparently it was used to pick up survivors in the killers face (attack cd is 2.7 seconds and 150% wglf took 6 seconds to fully heal) so u would be able to down them before they even got the heal off. Wglf didn’t die off as hard as the others but the pick rate definitely went down a lot after the speed revert.I don’t know why they nerfed the perks so fast after them being out for only 2 weeks post buff.
Because if you aren't running multiple slowdown perks you don't have time to use those other cool perks. Similarly on the survivor side, if you aren't running anti-tunnel perks, you don't have time to run anything else.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855124#Comment_3855124
To be fair, it sounds like BHVR is a wonderful company to work for. No crunch, reasonable hours etc etc
I imagine that DOTA's team is either significantly larger or is not afforded the same luxuries.
If you know how valve works you know that is not the case.
Valve as a company has around 350 employees and has a very flat org structure. It is so flat that projects live and die based on people convincing other people to work on them. People can move around projects as they see fit.
DotA 2 has around 40-50 people working on it at any given time. During big esports pushes and other things that sometimes goes up to around 100. But they do this with a very very small team given the size of the game.
Valve also actively discourages "crunch" and generally avoids it most of the time, although i'm sure it does happen from time to time like it does at any company.
I would suggest googling valve as a company and read about their structure, it is quite interesting given that they basically hold the entirety of the PC market share with steam.
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@brokedownpalace said:
Just went against 3 killers in a row with the exact same build. Thrill, Face the Darkness, Devour Hope and Pentimento.
Is this seriously the vision you have for the game Bhvr? Playing totem cleansing simulator?
Would you rather go against pain res, grim, dms, corrupt every game instead?