Kilmeran
Kilmeran
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- Kilmeran
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@DwightsLifeMatters, Here's another free bump, because I think it's a great idea. Especially with the DC epidemic going on, and your suggestion even covers the perks from both sides of the game.
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@Nickenzie, Yeah, in the other games I have been a community member for that sponsored Streamers: WoW, HoTS, Paladins, and Realm Royale, if those Streamers did what some of these Fog Whisperers have done, the sponsorship would have been terminated without a second thought.
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@Kamikaze_Rose said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/406543#Comment_406543
You forgot Steam and Uncle Sam.
@Kamikaze_Rose Steam likely won't be a factor for Bruce's and Lionsgate's payment structure. In every license I have ever worked on, the royalty payments were from gross sales. That's a royalty percentage based on the MSRP of each unit sold. Any fees from Steam, or any other vendor, are the licensees burden to bear.
It is possible, though, that Behavior might have gotten a bit of a "sweetheart deal" for Ash vs Evil Dead since they're also working on another project with Lionsgate.
Uncle Sam, though, gets everyone. Unless his accountant is good. Then he can loophole end-run them into minimal payments.
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@Nickenzie and @Detective_Jonathan, Well, I'd agree that it appears to be taking on water. But it can potentially be plugged and repaired, assuming enough resources exist to allocate to it and tough decisions can be made.
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@Detective_Jonathan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/406529#Comment_406529
Flex all you want dude, i would rather someone like you steering the ship than someone like BHVR, because at this current rate, i think the ship is sinking.
@Detective_Jonathan Yeah, I'm going to be honest: Many of their moves, especially in the past six months or so, have really made me sit back and wonder what the hell the decision makers are thinking. Do they just not have enough knowledge of gamer psychology, and are simply crunching numbers and deciding where to go? That's not something you do in the industry. You have to combine the two. You have to absolutely understand gamers.
Us gamers can ######### and moan all we want about companies like Blizzard, but they understand gamer psychology in a way I have rarely seen from a video game company. It's why they are where they are. Hell, I know what they're doing, I've done it myself to gamers in the table-top RPG industry and made bank with it, and yet Blizzard still gets me to fall for it time and time again.
Gearbox is another one with what they do with the Borderlands series. They play into gamer psychology very well.
I mean, granted, I'm only looking at Behavior from the outside and I've zero knowledge of what goes on at the offices, but as a gamer, customer, and someone that's successfully marketed and sold to gamers, they are really giving me pause.
And to be honest, without a serious "Operation Health" period for Dead by Daylight, and a rework of systems like the Perk RNG grind just to be able to play DbD as intended and experiment with builds without first needing 1k+ hours in the game (which is the biggest stated turn-off to new players, and likely their primary cause for a lack of new player retention), I don't know what to do. On the topic of the RNG grind, it's so bad now for new players that it makes the EQ1-era MMOs pale in comparison. And that is not why people play a PvP genre game.
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@Detective_Jonathan Thank you for the compliment. I'm far from perfect and I am not all-knowing by any stretch, but I've spent close to 25 years in the entertainment business. Though I am a fiction author at my core, I've also worked in television, sports-entertainment (i.e. wrestling), comic books, table-top RPG, and briefly in video games.
I do have a decent grasp of marketing and comsumer psychology as it pertains to entertainment. Like I said, though, I'm not flawless or all-knowing, and will screw up or be wrong about something. Hell, I've even had the oddball product that just failed to pan out with the customers. Like anyone else, I've had success and failures. It happens.
Not trying to flex, mind you, just stating where what knowledge I do have comes from.
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@ShirtlessDwight, but ask yourself how many new players that enter DbD are going to feel that way about this grind. If Steam numbers outside of a free-weekend or BP Event are an indication, not a lot. The game doesn't exactly show real growth anymore.
DbD is a PvP Game. And while having a Rank system is expected, this type of MMO-style grind isn't. Hell, it even hurts Realm Royale in the BR genre.
Getting good with the characters, then getting really good with the characters, experimenting with loadouts (if it has them, like in Paladins or Realm Royale, for example), climbing the ranks, those are the reasons most people play PvP games.
PvP'ers today aren't playing the genre to grind out massive bloodwebs that are also so heavily controlled by RNG, just to be able to experiment with builds and experience a core part of the DbD PvP aspect.
I like Realm Royale for example, but the class-level grinds in order to unlock needed talent builds is not why I would play a Battle Royale. So, Apex got my money.
I like Overwatch for PvP. Been there since Beta. Zero grind outside of SR grind for Ranked mode. The draw is getting good, then really good, with different Heroes and their unique kits.
DbD has the same draw. Get good with the characters, get good with different loadouts, get good with different tactics . . . except, wait: First you need 1k hours in the game and a lot of bloodweb luck before you can actually do that.
If you're one of those players that get their gaming jollies of on endless RNG grinds, then you're in heaven. But a majority of players who want to PvP? That's not the market. And if you look around at some of the complaints of new players, even at the reddit, it's the asinine grind, plus the RNG involved, before you can truly play the game as its designed, that turns them off.
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Well, let's be honest. If you're simply talking the actual year of 2019, then I am hard-pressed to think of something. Though I didn't play, I did keep a very close eye on DbD and lurked at the forums, reddit, and so forth. Legion dropped December 11, 2018, and it's been downhill from there. Nothing in 2019 has even approached changing that.
If you mean calendar year (April 2018- April 2019), there were some good things along the way. Patch 2.0, though not perfect, brought a couple QoL features that weren't bad.
But so far for 2019, it's like the DbD leadership is completely off the reservation.
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@[Deleted User] said:
And while we're on the subject of the grind. What is the point of it? Honestly. What does the grind (specifically for perks, not for add-ons or Moris) do in the context of this game that helps it? Do we stop playing once we have desired perks unlocked? I don't. That would defeat the purpose. I just use them on that killer. We don't pay to play. They don't get any more revenue once we pay for the DLC and unlock the teachable. They aren't tied to cosmetics. They don't seem to regulate the "blood point economy" per se, because I never run without yellow add ons at worst anyway and it never becomes an issue. I'd like to play Myers right now with a build, but I don't want to level Plague to 40, then hope I get 3 more perks on Myers without dumping 10 million bloodpoints in him. I'm actually playing the game less right now because of the grind. I ran into a situation with Freddy where I wanted Spirit Fury, and I literally got every other perk in the game (outside of Plague's) before getting it. Why is that a thing that can happen? Somewhat related, are perk tiers all that necessary? I can see why they would be for a new player just learning the ropes, but tier 1 and 2 perks are utterly pointless beyond rank 15 and nobody runs them by choice.
@edgarpoop, this is what I've been saying since Summer 2018. See, last summer I bought DbD and all the DLCs on the Steam Summer Sale. By the release of Spirit that September, I left. The grind plus the RNG were just too asinine as a new player. I came back about a week ago to try again.
I can see where the grind+RNG made sense in the game's beginning. It was the carrot on the stick when they had three killers and a handful of survivors. But with a current 15 killers, 17 survivors, and three more chapters due out this year according to the Wiki, it's being crushed under its own weight. Especially when it isn't just a grind, but a completely RNG-influenced bloodweb on top of it.
It's worse when a new player goes to check out DbD guides for Survivor, Killer, or a specific Killer, to learn to play, and is being told what loadouts to use to be effective. They're loadouts that you either pleased RNGesus for and were granted, or you have 1k hours or more in the game already. It's completely out of reach for a new player. And once they learn that, which won't take long, unless they are a grind-loving type of player: why bother? There are other games out there.
They need to do something like Hi-Rez does with Paladins and the cards. All Perks are unlocked (obviously once you buy the DLC for those characters). From there, build your loadout like in KYF. Use the bloodweb for add-ons and offerings. You still have your bloodweb and bloodpoints, but you also have a chance to keep the average new player as well.
At this point, the Perk grind and RNG isn't a goal, it's damned stifling. Especially when you will hit Rank 15+ in the blink of an eye because the grey ranks are so easy to get out of, and find yourself at a serious disadvantage that you have little hope of overcoming without an insane amount of grind time in the game (and more than a little bloodweb luck).
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@BACKSTABBER said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/406415#Comment_406415
What new game?
Yup I don't see job offers for DBD
@BACKSTABBER, It was in the article that came out on April 3rd. Paragraph #5, they mention how they're working on a new project with Lionsgate. And it was that partnership that led to them also being able to get the Ash license since Lionsgate also holds the rights to the Ash vs Evil Dead television series.
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@mcNuggets said:
The game itself should be fixed properly, then no one would disconnect.
If both partie would be balanced and maybe ranks would mean something, nobody would disconnect.
@mcNuggets I wouldn't go that far. Hell, I will disconnect from a non-ranked match in Overwatch when I realize my teammates are absolutely horrible and we have no shot in hell at a win. Granted, such doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
People would still disconnect here for the same reason. Survivor feeling their teammates just aren't up to snuff, or they're solo and the SWF teammates just don't care about them. Killer just having a bad match (assuming balance is there) and just says: to hell with it.
But the DCs would go down by a significant amount.
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@BACKSTABBER said:
The solution is hiring moar devs
@BACKSTABBER, Oh, I have no doubt they are hiring more Devs. But it's for the new game that they're in partnership with Lionsgate to make.
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@mcNuggets said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/406385#Comment_406385
But you cant uprank from rank 15 i think.
@mcNuggets, not through the Pipping system. That's why I said "avoid pipping while grinding BP." That would keep me at Rank 15 until next Saturday.
When rank reset happens next Saturday, a Rank 15 drops to Rank 17 (with 1 pip).
And if one can't ready themselves for this game as killer, as you stated, then where is the expected learning curve? Exactly what core game design did Behavior put into place for that? Or is their design so bad (which would be worse than I thought) that they didn't?
I mean, let's call their spade a spade. I saw the Stream a little while ago where they claimed that SWF "was always intended, despite what the community thinks." Okay, then, where's the mechanics and learning curve to learn to play against a voice-comm SWF. If Behavior claims it was always intended, then surely as game designers they designed around that.
Right?
Well, we both know the answer.
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@SmokePotion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/406282#Comment_406282
I never even thought about that. I'm a disabled war vet. I stay home all day, and a LOT of that time has been DBD. Over 400 hours of time. Working on 5. And most of my killers don't have access to the perks they need to work.
Keep in mind, I have the time to, and have, played this game 8-10 hours in a day. Maybe even more when I was trying to make a name for myself at Rank 1 ("Learning to Kill" is what i go by. I was planning to do a youtube channel devoted to killer education)
And if I don't have kits on killers I want to play, what about the Mother or Father that only has an hour or two after their kid goes to bed, and before they gotta get some sleep before work? I had an idea that would help this, that i came up with for other reasons.
In my post about fixing the d/c meta I suggest that everyone should already have all 4 perk slots open, at level 1. And every perk they have unlocked via grinding others should be available at level 1, at rank 1.
@SmokePotion, Look at me, I'm in the boat you mentioned. While three of my kids are grown to one degree or another (25, 20, and 18), I also have a 9-year-old. And let's be honest, the 18 and 20 year olds aren't fully self-sustaining adults yet, either.
I'm an author. Not only do I produce three to four novels and other novellas a year on my own, but I also have contracts with other publishers for fiction work. I put in a lot of work hours.
The wife doesn't play DbD, so when she has the rare time to play a game (she's a Home Depot store manager), we play Overwatch together.
I don't have much time to put into Dead by Daylight. The grind here is ######### asinine. It's worse than any MMO, and I stopped playing MMOs due to the grind-time involved. I just don't have the time anymore.
I love DbD. I just hit Rank 15 last night. I'm in new territory now. After hitting rank 15, all I had last night were SWF teams that managed to pop gens like they were percocets and they were addicts. I don't even have a basic build ready to go yet. But thanks to this damned free-weekend, I double pipped like crazy last night.
So now this grind is leaving me with two choices:
1) Now I either purposefully avoid Pips while grinding bloodpoints, or just stop playing until rank reset next Saturday.
2) I just stop playing the game entirely because now it's just a steamroll against me, and the grind to have some Perk counters is beyond stupid and too RNG based.
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It's having issues. I've tested it four times now, and generally have to RETRY two or three times before it lets me in (I've been exiting back out after I get in to test again).
Just keep clicking RETRY and you should get in.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I play Final Fantasy 14 with some people, and they asked about DbD. As I was talking to them, I realized how much worse the grind is in this asymmetrical horror game than it is in the MMORPG with a monthly subscription fee. I told them that after 400+ hours, I still didn't have access to many of the builds I'd like to do on the killer side. It was at that point I realized how hard the devs have made it to honestly convince people who are interested in this game to spend $10-20 on it. That's insane right? That the grind is so excessive, that the barrier of entry to fun builds is so steep, along with the bugs, d/c's, etc., that people don't want to spend that amount of money on a game they can sink this amount of time in. That should say it all right there.
@edgarpoop, So back in August or September 2018, I forget the exact month, I stumbled on a Streamer that was running a sub-a-thon. Poor guy, because new subs increased the Stream clock, ended-up going for almost 42 hours.
Anyway, I won two giveaways in the Stream. One of them was a free copy of DbD. Since I already have the game, I offered it to a gamer relative who is also a massive horror fan.
They played it for about 10 hours, figured out the insane grind required to even hope to please RNGesus enough to also get the Meta builds unlocked on one character, never mind several, and put the game down. Now, keep in mind, this is a player who played MMOs during the grind-have-no-life EQ1 era. They played vanilla WoW and raided (which required hours of time and a set schedule). They aren't foreign to grinds.
They uninstalled a free copy of Dead by Daylight because for a new player, the grind is worse than even the EQ1-era MMOs.
And it is. The RNG bloodweb and teachables were a good idea three years ago. But with 15 Killers, 17 Survivors, and (according to the Wiki) three more of each slated between June and December of this year, it's just too much for new players. At this point, they need to completely redesign the system. Either perks just need to all be unlocked and available like in KYF (at least the Tier 1 versions) and the bloodweb be used for Add-Ons and Offerings and Tier 2 or 3 perks, or something else to get rid of the massive grind and RNG just for viable builds on one character.
Because except for the grind-fiesta loving new players, I don't see them growing much more under this system. Three years later, it's dying under its own weight.
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@SmokePotion That's why I said, we have to not look at the free-weekend and Bloodpoint Event bumps just on their own, but watch to see what the numbers look like during the work week afterward.
Did Behavior convert those returning players (BP Events) or new players (Free-Weekends) into regular players? If not, then those weekend numbers mean nothing.
Monday and Tuesday will tell more.
For the record, despite my criticisms here, I love Dead by Daylight. I want it to grow and stick around with full resource support for years to come. I got gifted Legion last night, then went ahead and purchased Plague and Ash to complete the current collection. I want Behavior to get their metaphorical heads out of their asses.
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@BBQnDemogorgon said:
@Kilmeran Summon the 2x BP event. Events are what bring the big numbers.
December had a week of 2x BP and numbers blew up.
@Bbbrian2013 That's about the only trick they have left in the hat. The questions, though, are:
1) Do enough of those people buy any missing DLCs or buy Auric Cells?
2) Do they stick around after the event?
If they don't, then it's not even a band-aid fix because, while folks might get faster lobbies with the Event player count boost, it did nothing to improve the overall health of the game and then we're back to where we were.
It's happening now. Today's peak so far is 31k. It's a bump, let's call a spade a spade. But come Monday or Tuesday, what will the non-free-weekend numbers look like again? If Behavior isn't converting the free-weekend or Bloodpoint Event bumps, then it's an issue.
So, we'll see in a couple of days.
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@ShirtlessDwight, TWD is the generally used shorthand for The Walking Dead. It's even used by Robert Kirkman, himself.
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And to be honest: Like I said, some of us danced this dance back in Fall 2018 when this whole thing was announced and the first Fog Whisperers revealed. It started a war that actually brought said Fog Whisperers to the forums, making their very first posts, just to tell us how evil we were and how good they were and how they were only doing it all for entertainment value.
And here we are now, some seven-or-so months later. Exact same crap. Only now they avoid the forums and play the role of snarky martyr on Twitter.
Behavior made their bed, and there isn't anything going to change. They seem dead set on rushing head first into a wall with so many aspects of DbD that it's going to inevitably result in a broken neck.
Which is a goddamned shame, because despite my criticisms here at the forums, I am genuinely enjoying Dead by Daylight. I actually want the game to grow and stick around for a while. It's frustrating, though, when one feels that way about a game, and to play it is forced to be a customer under a Studio that seems damned and determined to slit its own throat.
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@SmokePotion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/405660#Comment_405660
Supported for years on end... Unless their name is Heroes of the Storm.
Sorry had to.
@SmokePotion, Yeah, that one is in an odd place. I just checked it out on the launcher tonight, and they just completely redid all the hero categories. They also seem to still be putting out new heroes and patches. I know they had stuff done for something like six months in advance, so I'm waiting to see how that goes after June or so.
See, HoTS is yet another example of Activision assuming more control over Blizzard, which is happening and has been documented in interviews with employees. It's not a good thing. It also makes me question how much longer I really have as a Blizzard customer, because I already don't care much for what Activision is doing with them. Hell, Activision-Blizzard (which yes, is a separate entity in too many ways) is the part that's behind the Overwatch League and the influence its had on the actual game. And the OWL is spearheaded by Robert Kotich, the CEO of Activision-Blizzard.
@Justified, Thanks. It was the visual that kept popping into my head tonight about how they keep swooping into threads proclaiming their sense of caring. Which for months now, carries about the same weight as if Dr. Doom had said it.
You know, I have an annual subscription to Marvel Unlimited. I think my brain is telling me I should get back to reading some of it.
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@NightmareReborn, Oh, when I was in table-top RPGs, I was well-known for a zombie apocalypse adventure series. The damned thing still sells till this day, and I ended it nearly seven years ago.
Anyway, I was approached by another publisher who wanted to obtain a TWD license and asked me to assist, since I also had experience in licensed work and negotiations in the past.
Long story short (besides me wondering why in the hell they would want to license TWD in the first place when they could just create their own original zombie game), the license was very high-priced and they couldn't afford it. But I already knew going in that that was going to be the end result. I still got paid for my time, though, so no skin off of me.
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@TheRealDweard, I just went and double-checked. You are right, and I apologize. I should have vetted my reaction first, but that one caught me at a particularly bad time.
So, again: I'm sorry.
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@SmokePotion, At this point, I have to begin wondering how much Behavior truly cares about DbD anymore. It's not just them allowing Fog Whisperers to run rampant and/or encourage account attacks against opposing players or viewers, it's the state of the game. And trust me: they'll swoop in here like Peter Parker with a web-shooter and proclaim how much they care. But unfortunately, none of their actions in any aspect has shown that for months on end now.
As was stated by Cote in an interview, they're now in partnership with Lionsgate for a new game. DbD is three years old now. Maybe they're just looking ahead to their new title(s). Wouldn't be the first time I've seen a game studio do this.
And some people in my life wonder why I've been a Blizzard customer for 25-years, despite their warts. Outside of the rare outlier like Diablo 3, they support their games for years on end.
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@AshleyWB To be honest, nothing really. Video games are just something I do here and there in the evenings. No special reason or catharsis for me. Just basic entertainment value.
Well . . . maybe not entirely accurate. If I'm in DbD, then I'm not currently playing the often-times rage-inducing Overwatch, because I keep getting potatoes for random teammates that can't aim worth a damn, yet insist on picking one of the snipers like Hanzo or Widowmaker. Or even worse: trying to heal as Ana.
So, I guess there's that.
@Nickenzie, technically speaking, life does have a DC button. But it's a one-time use, and I would strongly recommend against ever using it.
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@Theluckyboi, Not only the cost of a The Walking Dead license being high (I know this from personal experience), but considering the fact that neither of the last two DLCs, one of which was for Evil Dead, saw a jump in player numbers at all, I doubt Behavior would be interested in any high-priced licenses at this stage. It just doesn't read as a good investment when, if DLCs aren't spiking player numbers, it likely also means they aren't being purchased in the same volume as previous DLCs, either.
I mean hell, so far a free-weekend isn't seeing a jump in player numbers for PC. It's barely registering as a blip. Whereas previous free-weekends often times doubled existing numbers just on PC.
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@not_Queef said:
It depends on the situation.
5 gens left? I'll leave the hook and go in search of fresh meat.
3 gens left? I'll patrol but I'll commit to the first chase I get.
1 gen left? Sure, I'll go after the unhooker, I hope I don't regret this...
Gates open? #########, get yo ass back on that hook.
@not_Queef Yeah, that about sounds like me as well.
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@SmokePotion said:
Just want to point out that it's currently F2P and the numbers are still dropping.
Maybe it'll pick up a bit tomorrow, but still. Sad. And this is a clear effort to bring up some numbers and get them in the green for a month. (which would still be in the red for the past few months)
@SmokePotion, I emailed the person behind SteamCharts this morning, because the API had not updated any information since 7am on Wednesday, April 3rd. The time that Steam went offline for tech work.
It's updating fine now, so I assume the person running SteamCharts fixed whatever was wrong. However, the 24-hour peak is off for today (Friday). I was watching the numbers through the "In-Game" numbers from the Community Hub game page, and it peaked at slightly over 26k this afternoon, then went down. DbD tends to peak between 10am-1pm east coast time every day.
But a 26k peak for a free weekend is still a clear sign of trouble. If there isn't a significant jump tomorrow or Sunday, I'd say Behavior has a real cause to worry. At that point, neither the Plague DLC, the Ash DLC, nor a free-weekend gave them even a temporary player base recovery.
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@ShirtlessDwight, Oh please. Any survivors worth their salt would have been gen-rushing the camping killer. The only issue here is that they were a 4-man SWF and were pissed that one of their buddies was about to be out of the match.
And for the record: I don't camp. The only exception to my rule about not camping is when a survivor is being blatantly toxic toward me. Then they're camped and out of the match. One toxic turn definitely deserves another.
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There's a flaw in that logic. Depending on the bloodpoints some accounts had saved up, and how quickly they can generate more, Ash might not be the only survivor right now with MoM slotted.
I get that you dodge Ash as a guaranteed dodge of that MoM slot, but I guarantee you'll eventually be facing it from other survivors as well. And you won't know until the match is already in progress. Then what?
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@twistedmonkey said:
I cant see BHVR enforcing certain things on to paying customers.
Fog whisperes are just normal players who happened to stream with decent sexed communities, BHVR have approached then to help them out by way of giving out info to their viewers and keep promoting the game, in return they get certain incentives to help their stream.
They are not BHVR employees so they are simply held by the same rules as any other player nothing more.
@twistedmonkey, I'm sorry, but that is not accurate. When they applied to become a Fog Whisperer, they applied to be part of a partnership program supported by Behavior to help market and promote the game in exchange for whatever perks came along with it. As such, they are part of the official public face for Dead by Daylight.
The goal is to promote Dead by Daylight to bring people into the game, thereby facilitating sales of the base game and potential DLC sales as well. That means their Streams are now part of the Dead by Daylight marketing model. This is the same for Bajheera over in World of Warcraft, FeyRazzle or 1HP in the Paladins program, Baggins_TV, Thor, Krippler, and others for Realm Royale, and so forth. They accepted the partnership to help promote and market the game, and become a Twitch face for it.
When they encourage their viewers to go and attack Steam and Twitch accounts of opposing players or viewers, or DC because they don't like a Killer or how a match is going, or purposefully derank to go against lower-skilled opponents because "it's more fun to watch," they are thereby marketing a toxic behavior pattern within Dead by Daylight. They are marketing it to any existing customers as well as potential new customers that might have stumbled into their stream as a means of researching the game before purchasing. And displaying that type of community face could drive away potential sales.
Heck, there was a poster in another thread about this topic that stated he did just that: checked out a Stream to see what the game was about, saw that type of behavior, and walked away. He has the game now only because his friends gifted him the base game and DLCs to get him to play. But after seeing one of those Fog Whisperers as his first experience with DbD, decided not to purchase the game.
Fog Whisperers are not the same as other DbD Streamers. They sought out and were accepted into a marketing partnership. Now, while they shouldn't necessarily be banned from the game, they should be terminated from the Fog Whisperers program and reduced to the status of just the "average DbD streamer." They should no longer be part of the official marketing face for DbD.
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@Thatbrownmonster said:
that was what I was thinking, one is camping and one is holding the game hostage
but apparently this streamer knew the rules and was gonna get me banned, him and his swf team
@Thatbrownmonster, well, the streamer is being a man or woman child. You camped the basement hook. It's 100% completely allowed. They had the option to just go do gens and use the camping against you, same as any face-camping. They chose not to.
You won't be banned at all. The streamer can't get you banned. They don't work at Behavior. All they can do is file a report. Which will be deemed a false report and then trashed. No worries.
Behavior needs the Blizzard method in Overwatch. File enough false reports, and you get banned.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
"Overwatch actually tried this ranking system(your proposed ranking system) and it failed miserably, because players looked to earn the most "points" in the hidden rank system rather than play the game properly."
They did not. What failed in Overwatch was that their their ranking system and "playing the game properly" didn't match.
You might want to ask yourself what "playing the game properly" means. If you know what it means than there you have the particular features of your emblem system.
Often what "playing the game properly" means is simply winning. That makes for a decent emblem system. Add on top of that how many generators have been completed in case there wasn't an escape and make sure all survivors get rewarded as to make them not play self-ish.
@AlwaysInAGoodShape, You are correct about Overwatch (I've played the game since Beta, played the Beta version of Comp, then the live version that came later).
The issue with the Overwatch system is performance based SR. It weighs your performance on a said Hero against others in your bracket. That would be fine, except the system doesn't account for Hero Switching at all. So, if I started as Junkrat, played him for several minutes until I had to switch to, say, Soldier 76 to counter their Pharah, the system is going to gauge my performance as 76 and Junkrat against others in my bracket. The issue is, those others could have played them for the entire match, so my performance with them is going to look weak.
Another example: I had a Competitive match on Illios last year. I was Junkrat with a Pharah on my team. We won all points 100-0. I was gold that match with 9 eliminations. Yeah, you read that right: 9 elimination was gold. The reason? The Pharah and I zoned the enemy team so hard that they couldn't get to the point. They rarely got close to it.
My SR reward at the end was 10 SR. Because I was DPS and my elims were so low (even though it was a gold medal) even though I zoned the enemy and prevented them from touching the point, the system deemed me a poor performer.
That was my final competitive match ever played, and is one of several reasons I walked away from Overwatch competitive. There are many strats that can win a match, and performance based SR doesn't account for them. It should be a win-loss SR system, and not just for Diamond and above like it is now.
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@Thatbrownmonster, No. It was simply a form of camping, and camping is not bannable. The survivors might not have been able to make the save, but they could still go do generators and progress the match.
Now, had you body-blocked the stairs while they were in the basement so they couldn't get out, and refused to hit them, that would have been holding the game hostage, which is bannable.
But what you did was simply camp the basement hook.
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@NightmareReborn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/405383#Comment_405383
Yeah, but if Tekken 7 can get Negan, then getting Clementine in DbD isn't impossible.
@NightmareReborn I don't think Behavior has the same resources or budget as Bandai Namco Entertainment. That would be like saying: Hey, Activision-Blizzard did it, so Behavior should, too.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I'll be honest, the first thing I saw of this game was someone who is supposed to represent the community doing nothing but insulting killers and intentionally disconnecting from games on purpose.
It was not a good first impression, and if I wasn't convinced by my brother and his friends super heavily (read: basically gifted a free copy of the game with DLC), I would have never played this game.
I can't imagine other newer players getting that as a first impression will be so lenient.
BHVR, your Fog Whisperers that act like this are basically willfully, and have even for all intense and purposes, admitted, to gaming your system to avoid punishment. Stop relying on a program to parent your players and the people who are supposed to represent the "best of the community" and take some actual human control and responsibility. There's more than enough context to make a judgement call here to say enough is enough and that kind of behavior from them will not be tolerated any longer and if they continue then they will no longer represent the community.
There shouldn't be a "threshold". If they cannot or will not act responsible, they should not be a Fog Whisperer. No 'ifs ands' or 'buts'. You cannot possibly look at Fog Whisperers who do this kind of thing and expect anyone to take this game or the community seriously with a straight face.
@Sairek Yeah, some of us have been performing this song and dance since Fall 2018. In response, we basically get the world's smallest violin played at us. At this point, as concerned customers, we've complained about this to the point of losing our voices. I'm just willing to sit back, watch the numbers continue to drop, and let the place burn. It's getting to the point that its deserved.
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I think cost might be an issue. You do realize that The Walking Dead is a rather expensive license, right?
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@Bongbingbing, This is why I've said: I will be the first to criticize Blizzard for how a lot of things have gone in Overwatch over the past three years. But, the one thing they will do is hold Streamers and even their pro-players accountable.
xQc was one of the largest Overwatch streamers. He got banned several times by Blizzard due to toxic behavior in-game that happened while he was streaming live. Things got so bad that he was also terminated from the Overwatch League after being suspended there several times for behavior on his Stream.
There have been some other streamers as well. It's why some of the formerly large Overwatch streamers moved on to other games. They found out that Blizzard was actually going to hold them accountable for in-game behavior on their personal streams.
Despite issues I have with the direction of Overwatch over the past year, Blizzard at least earned my respect for that. They have the business acumen to know that these large Twitch streamers for a game can dictate not only the play meta, but also play behavior.
Behavior apparently hasn't figured that out.
@Detective_Jonathan, Like I said before: toxic, entitled children. Let them go to Twitter and do whatever. All it accomplishes in the end is that potential viewers and subscribers like me won't invest in their business. We'll go to a competitor that isn't a toxic man or woman child.
I think that over the next year or two, the Twitch demographic is going to continue shifting. Have you noticed lately that those who built their streams on being toxic, raging children, people like Ninja for example, are losing subscribers left and right? Signs are pointing to the strong possibility that that sort of stream format is running its course now. Viewers are growing tired of it. Plus, Twitch is slowly becoming more and more mainstream, and your average gamer-viewer isn't going to subscribe to that. And in the case of Ninja, it certainly isn't a Fortnite issue. That game continues to grow, despite all the odds. Folks like TimtheTatMan continue to grow. But streamers like Ninja and xQc are seeing a drop.
It's going to eventually hit those Fog Whisperers as well.
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@SmokePotion, See Vincent Vega is a good example. Yeah, the guy has a mouth, but that is part of his stream format, whether he's streaming DbD or some other game that night. But in the DbD matches, I've yet to ever see him DC on purpose or derank on purpose. As far as I can tell, he plays DbD by the rules. I have zero issue with Vincent being a Fog Whisperer.
I have no issue with how a Streamer chooses to handle their steaming format and style. If I enjoy it, I'll stay. If not, I'll switch to another channel. Just like any other TV entertainment. But when they start promoting toxic in-game behavior, the purposeful DCs based on Killer or getting downed early in the match, or throwing matches and deranking on purpose, then I draw the line. They should no longer be Fog Whisperers. They should never have been selected in the first place. Simple as that, no excuses.
@Detective_Jonathan, That is exactly what I feel needs to happen at this stage.
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@TWiXT, No, I read the post when you had that first sentence in there. It wasn't whiny. Whiny would have been "I'm leaving" or something. Stating that you are considering leaving the game at this point, for anyone with reading comprehension, indicated that reasons would follow. One should have read the reasons before forming an opinion on the nature of the post.
The other poster has been going around bitching and moaning about posts. To be honest, ignore him. I guess it makes him feel special, edgy, white-knight, or whatever. He isn't worth considering any longer.
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@Peanits, the trick is: being able to determine between what is an intentional, player-side DC and what is an internet issue. I'll admit, I'm not confident it's going to go the way Behavior hopes, because even Blizzard and Riot have admitted that they can't really distinguish between the two. That's why even an internet issue while playing their Ranked mode results in a never-overturned (as far as I have seen from players) ban.
It's the risk you take when playing a Ranked mode.
The difference there, though, is that other games with a Ranked mode offer a non-ranked mode as well. If Behavior doesn't offer such a mode, and unless they find the unicorn that the much bigger Studios thus far haven't found on distinguishing between types of DCs, it is going to hurt this game further.
Example: Instead of simply "Leave Match," I disconnect the internet from my computer. I've now purposefully DC'ed from the match by making it appear as an internet issue. There's no way a Studio can tell the difference. It's just as easy to abuse. That's exactly what the others have already stated, and exactly the place Behavior is also going to end up on the issue. It's why games have a Ranked mode, where if you play with an internet issue you assume the risk of a ban, and a QP mode with a DC threshold because it's more casual.
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@Peanits said:
Disconnects are not reportable. DC bans are all handled automatically once someone disconnects beyond a certain threshold.
@Peanits, and that is the problem. In a Ranked mode, the first DC should institute some sort of temporary ban, with the time escalating for subsequent DCs until it reaches a permanent Season Ban. Enough season bans, and it's a game-ban. Which is how pretty much how every other Ranked mode in the industry handles it.
I get that Behavior, for some mind-boggling reason, thought it a good idea to only have a Ranked mode in DbD. But you can't have only a ranked mode, and then treat it like it's Quick Play. In a QP format, there is usually a DC threshold before a punishment is enacted. You can't do that in Ranked where you expect people to grind the Rank and put their time and effort on the line. Ranked mode tells players that this mode is Competitive. There's no other definition for players.
Either DbD needs a second non-ranked mode, rank just needs to be removed, or the penalties need to change to treat it like the Ranked mode it is. Right now, Behavior is treating it like a Ranked-Quick Play hybrid, and that is the core of the problem. You can't have it both ways in a single mode with the player base.
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@WheatThinO, I understand exactly what you're saying. I'd always felt that Killers should have their own, individual rank since one Killer can play very differently from another.
At the same time, though, I'm fully aware that from a resource and coding standpoint, that might not have been viable.
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@Detective_Jonathan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/404974#Comment_404974
I made a post one time talking about the topic, And most of them came at me and witch-hunted, harassed me for it. Some of them even made up stories saying i harassed them to begin with. Even when some of them did things wrong in the game, i called them out on it in the forums and it got locked because they said that i made the effort to instigate more action from them.
These guys have made my gaming experience miserable. Saying i am a bad person and that i am not an all around good person to be around. When they don't even know me, i know more about them, just by lurking and watching their stream, to know that these guys are not good people.
They can't even come and talk to you like an adult and reason with you, instead they have to act like baboons and resort to taking things personally and post it on twitter, one of them is even on the forums to begin with.
But is that going to stop me from calling these people out? No, From now on though i am just going to clip it, and then i am going to go out of my way to make sure something is done about these people, every single one of them.
@Detective_Jonathan, Yeah, several of the Fog Whisperers are toxic, entitled children that Behavior only reinforces by rewarding them. I've been online gaming for 20 years, since the dawn of EQ1. I've not been around the block, I've traveled the metaphorical country. I've been a player in countless communities over the decades, and been a moderator in others, and have even worked in the industry for a brief time (it wasn't for me). I've seen things from both sides of the fence, as well as on the fence.
And there are a handful of games where I can say the Studio, itself, actively had a hand in building an unpleasant toxic atmosphere via a series of questionable decisions.
Behavior and Dead by Daylight are unfortunately near the top of that list.
Their Steam number have dropped. The recent two DLCs did not boost it back. The current free-weekend, watching the active player count in the community hub page at Steam (since SteamCharts isn't updating currently), showed a 26k peak for today so far. Hardly the bump you'd see for a free-weekend. I'm waiting to see what tonight looks like, and then Saturday and Sunday, since DbD usually peaks between 10am and 1pm (east coast time). But so far, it looks like the game is in an unhealthy state across the board.
And there is no one to blame except Behavior. Specifically, the leadership. I'm of the belief that DbD needs a new Game Director at this stage. I mean no disrespect to Mr. Cote, and it's nothing personal, but from a customer perspective, things aren't working out like they used to. Given the player base shrinkage, I'd say I'm not the only one.
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@se05239 said:
Oh, they could easily reinforce their DC banning system to be more strict.. but then they'd lose their precious survivor players and that's a big no-no. Would create a backlash. Another review-bombing.
@se05239, Not only that, some of the pedestal-mounted Fog Whisperers would finally get caught in the net, too. Now, can't have that, can we?
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@Jonathanskilz said:
@Kilmeran Thank you for not buying legion honestly
@Jonathanskilz, Yeah, well, no sooner than I say that I haven't bought them yet, I go and take a short nap, just wake up, and find that one my kids (they're 25, 20, 18 and 9) just gifted it to me because of the current sale. So . . . yeah, I kind'a own Legion now. But in my defense, I still didn't buy him.
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@Bongbingbing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/404821#Comment_404821
I Couldn't agree more, If anything fog whisperes should be put on stricter limitations than the rest of the community not get away with it Just because they play more games.
These people who Promote and actively Derank / DC show to the thousands of viewers watching that It's okay to play like that, and it's not. Just look at the state the game is in right now in terms of DCs and there's still people supported by BHVR that push DCing.
How can someone say they DC and derank but still remain part of the fog whisperers? It's ridiculous.
@Bongbingbing, Which is the precise point some of us kept bringing up in Fall 2018 when the program was announced and the initial names revealed. That certain among them DC'ed and deranked, and openly defended it. The main offender then turned out to be a Mod in Cote's stream. Go figure.
Of course, we all got ignored. Even when we tagged CMs about the issue. Then the offenders and their posse rode into the forums, several making their first posts ever, to defend the practice all in the name of keeping their streams entertaining.
But hey, enjoy the DC and Deranking epidemic that continues to get worse in this game. After all, the marketers that Behavior chose to align themselves with promoted it in the first place.
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@Bbbrian2013, I don't disagree, though to be fair, at least on PC, the latest two DLCs (one even being Evil Dead) didn't bump the numbers at all, and a DLC usually would.
My main goal was to head-off the inevitable: Free weekend and DbD peaked at 14k players. Which would be untrue, since the 14k number is from 7am on April 3rd, the last time the API updated.
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@BBQnDemogorgon said:
@Kilmeran That must not be actively enforced then. I see streamers drinking live all the time. Even big streamers with Twitch staff watching.
One of the big DbD streamers is known for his weekly crazy drunk streams.
@Bbbrian2013 A lot usually isn't unless they get complaints. Also, yeah, if they're big like Shroud or Disrespect, expect "special rules" to apply. They make Twitch too much money. Such is the world.
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@Detective_Jonathan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/404511#Comment_404511
So you mean to tell me, that this entire time, these Fog Whisperers hold Drinking streams and drink on stream, when it is against TOS on Twitch?
I think this fuels my hate for twitch and the people under it even more. If Twitch is supposed to be your "JOB" then why the hell are you drinking while doing your "JOB" because it doesn't make sense to sit there and have a "JOB" and drink alcohol, thus resulting in you saying things and end up having your channel shut down, thus losing your "JOB"
@Detective_Jonathan, my 25-year-old son is a part-time streamer just for fun (his real job is store management at Best Buy), and yes: drinking alcohol on the stream is a violation of the Twitch ToS and can result in your channel being terminated. So is using your channel to attack other streamers or viewers.
And due to the minimum required age of 13 to have a Twitch account, I've found that at least in the case of alcohol, if they do catch it while you're Live, or you're dumb enough to post the VoD, they sometimes will terminate your channel.
Just for clarification, my son has never been sanctioned or shutdown. He abides by the ToS, as do a majority of Streamers. But thanks to him, I've read the Twitch Streamer ToS and other documents repeatedly, since I'm considering starting a Stream for my fans (I'm an author by day).