Jallybwan
Jallybwan
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- Jallybwan
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BBQ: encourages killer to not camp
BBQ: encourages killer to not tunnel
BBQ: has plenty of counterplay (lockers, distortion, running one way and back, etc)
this madlad: NERF BBQ IT OP AND EVERYONE USE IT REEEE
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/805664#Comment_805664
Your idea would further encourage it.
So it's better to DS a killer that isn't tunnelling you than it is to actually punish tunnelling killers? If it bothers you that much, reduce the timer to 30 seconds or something. And if you're running after the killer and trying to get their attention, you aren't doing gens.
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@GrootDude said:
This would encourage me to seek out the killer for a chase, then go on a long chase and stab the killer. I’d prefer current DS.
Because current DS doesn't encourage you to make bold plays and draw attention to yourself?
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@Saitamfed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/794234#Comment_794234
What I mean is at the way I am seeing it. It won't punish tunnelers if they don't tunnel in the "classic way". I mean tunnelers will search another way (and you have more ways with this new idea).
Unfortunately, there is no way to prevent someone from tunnelling. Ever. No matter how many mechanics are added into the game, if a good killer hates you and wants you dead, you will die.
That being said, I see no reason to punish a killer with an anti-tunnel perk if they aren't tunnelling you. DS does that nowadays far too often.
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@Mat_Sella said:
you were attacked within 60 seconds of being unhooked. If 3 people went down within 60 seconds, the perk is only giving the team a fair shot.
If 3 people go down within 60 seconds, either they were extremely bad or the killer was extremely good. Either way, the killer deserves to be winning in that scenario.
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@Saitamfed said:
Well let's see a way that a killer can tunnel in this case and not being punished. Let's suppose the killer is tunneling you (or targeting you if you want to call it that way, wathever the reason is), you go down but then another injured survivor try to make them leave, the surv goes down because he is not that good or whatever the reason is, and the killer hook him first. Does that mean the killer didn't tunnel you? The killer effectively tunneled you but for whatever the reason is, he choosed the another survivor.
Anyway, I think it's better focusing on perks like "Adrenaline" wich I think can be powerful and unfair under certain circumstances.
Two responses to this.
One, that sounds like a serious misplay on your teammates' part. If the injured survivor is throwing themselves at the killer and getting killed, that's their fault for screwing you over. Another reason why voice comms should be added into the game.
Two, there will always be edge cases with DS where it can't do its job of preventing tunnelling. Nothing can stop a good killer from tunnelling you if he really really wants you dead, no matter how many incentives there are to do otherwise. My rework of DS is not meant to make the perk perfect. It's meant to make the perk better.
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@Haku said:
The current DS is just the perfect tool that this game needs to survive in these days of toxicity. The fact that the devs just don't have any solution for dealing with campers / that is punishing them real hard/ makes the perk just needed so people can prolong their game and have the minimum fun as a survivor. Any change will make the game worse and worse for survivor side till the point where all the good players that play solo will leave. In general the game is going in really bad direction in my eyes making it harder and harder and harder for survivors to play solo.
Jallybwan is saying that the game should not be balanced around bad players. Okay! But the game should be balanced around the fact you get RANDOM teammates - good or bad. You can easly assume that if you are lucky at least one of them will be bad but if you add the fact that the current state of the ranking is COMPLETE GARBAGE I'd say half of them will be bad + killer will be a camper half the time. And I really love you last line where you said good survivors will be absolutely unbearable as killer. Well currently the opposite is true for many of the killers in this game. A really good killer is absolutely unbearable as survivor with or without DS. Just check Zubs steam someday. I don't think this guy has lost a game as a killer ever
Oh, I absolutely understand that a good killer is insufferable with random (usually bad) teammates. That's the pecking order of DBD: swf beats killer, killer beats solo. I personally think voice comms should be added into the base game, and then BHVR can balance around that.
I will also agree that the current DS is a good tool to promote healthy gameplay, but it certainly isn't perfect and it could use a bit more tweaking so that it does its job more instead of being an always-strong perk in just about every situation.
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@Sadiii said:
So, allow me to understand correctly.
You want to remove her ability to be invisible whilst phasing, allow survivors to see her whilst phasing and for her to not be able to hear survivors? Where is the mind games? You will literally lose survivors the instant you phase.
Nice joke.
ikr, I'm a regular clown
and my idea is just as good as he is lol
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@MisterCremaster said:
If you successfully loop the killer for the entire deactivation time of DS, then you have done your job as far as a survivor goes. You're not being punished, generators should be being done during that time. Or other survivors could come to your aid an intercept the killer on a loop. There is plenty to be done. But DS isn't supposed to be guaranteed just because you have it.
That's true, but it still feels like a punishment when you lose out on activating a perk because you were too good. It's like when you end a game too quickly as killer and safety pip as a result. You also don't get rewarded in terms of BP or emblems for gens being done while you're being chased, so there's a double punishment.
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@Yucchi said:
The fing is: you can be unsafely unhooked, both of you go down but killer hookes the other one knowing that your DS will deactivate. So what can an unsafely unhooked survivor do?
If you're being unsafely unhooked, then that's on the fault of the rescuer, not the killer and not you. You technically shouldn't be punished for it either, but it's a perfect example of "survivor is a team game and you will get punished for having bad teammates". I don't see the point of balancing around aforementioned bad teammates, because that means good teammates will be absolutely unbearable as killer.
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In seriousness, I posted this without really thinking it over. I actually figured this would be a buff for a good Spirit (hence me being #########), but hey this is why I'm not a dev
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yeah I'm not really helping my case am I lol
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For context, I am a hardcore killer main. I'm just ######### okay bear with me
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@Kerbert said:
This wouldn't keep her top tier.
Explain, please.
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@GrootDude said:
First of all, it requires more than headphones to play Spirit, I have a good headset and still can’t play her. Second, fun is subjective.
- Sounds like a you problem.
- True, but when the majority of the community says she's unfun to play against, has no counterplay, is generally unhealthy for the game... maybe you should listen.
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@Fibijean said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/788744#Comment_788744
That makes more sense. I'm a little cautious about how much removing passive phasing would detract from her aesthetic, cause I feel like it adds a lot to her spook factor at the moment, but I'm not sure. I'd probably have to see it in action to decide, but maybe there's a way to keep both in there somehow.
Yeah, which is why I moved it to the phase walk instead of just removing it entirely ^-^
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@Fibijean said:
If the survivors can see the Spirit, I think she should be able to hear them. Currently, going against Spirit's power is almost pure guesswork - we don't want to flip it so that using her power is pure guesswork. That's just the same problem, but pushed onto the killer instead.
The only other problem I can see is that if you add the passive phasing effect to her power, there's no way to know whether she's using her power or not at any given moment. Or was that intentional?
I mean, you can tell because she'll be zooming way faster than usual, but I do intend to remove passive phasing while she isn't using her power. That is a fair point on not being able to hear survivors, but my intent is to make a Spirit rely on M1 mindgames and then predict whether or not they fall for it. I do definitely see your point though, and if enough people agree, I'll add it in.
Two more things to clarify:
1) Spirit will no longer have collision while phasing
2) Spirit will no longer have passive phasing while outside of her power
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/787519#Comment_787519
Why would you ever not crouch with Amanda's letter?
That's the point. It changes the way you play Pig. ;>
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In terms of how Amanda's Letter and Rules Set No.2 should be reworked, I think it's fair enough to say that one should compliment her stealth, and the other should compliment her ambush, both at the expense of her RBTs.
Potential ideas:
Amanda's Letter - Removes all RBTs and Jigsaw Boxes. Aura reading increased to 20m. Speed while crouching increased to 115%.
Rules Set No.2 - Removes all RBTs and Jigsaw Boxes. Dash speed increased to 230%. Dash duration increased to 4 seconds.
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imagine trying to bait pig mains like we don't go through enough already
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alright then have at it boys
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/718804#Comment_718804
I don't mind the devs prioritizing consistency, personally (even if it is taking them time to do so). The problem to me comes from the fact that they are overall net minuses for a Killer that already needed improvements (IMO), and nothing seems to be done for her in the meanwhile.
I don't really have a problem with consistency in and of itself either; my problem is that it interferes with Pig's balance. So I guess we agree.
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@Bravo0413 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/91717/blight-event
I hope they go back to something a little more revealing for her.... art design team built her so good! Dont be afraid and cover her up too much!
isn't spirit underage
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/717232#Comment_717232
I mean, to be fair, the reasoning behind the individual changes makes sense to some degree.
The EGC nerf was because they didn't want the situation of "need to escape before the timer runs out but can't escape because active RBT" to be so easily accessible/prominent for the Pig. Their solution may have been bad IMO, but the reasoning behind the change makes sense to me.
The "ambush is not a basic attack" thing is because they want there to be consistency between what procs certain perks/abilities and what doesn't. Granted, they are slow on changing that (I think Legion's Feral Frenzy attacks still proc STBFL), but it is something they are planning to do in time.
The "ambush no longer works with exposed" is an outlier from when they decided that they didn't want the ambush to be a basic attack. They don't want Killer powers to be able to function with Exposed unless that is the explicit intent behind the power or an add-on altering it.
The big problems in my eyes is that she isn't being compensated for these notable changes (and in the case of the EGC thing, the nerf was super heavy-handed and overkill).
I know these nerfs have reasoning behind them; I have enough faith in the devs to believe that they aren't just randomly deciding to gut Pig's power :P
My main problem is that the devs seem to be prioritizing consistency over balance. Pig's dash was still completely balanced while benefiting from basic attack perks (Sloppy, Third Seal, etc). Apart from "it's her power", there was no reason to nerf it. The dash even uses her main weapon, which irritates me. Nurse, Spirit and Hag are all far more powerful than Pig, and they all get to benefit from these perks, but not Pig herself?
And yeah, there hasn't been a lot in terms of compensation buffs. The things we have gotten are more QoL changes.
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@Peanits I don't think this has been asked in this thread (if it has been then I'm blind), but why is Pig getting these nerfs? As far as I'm aware, the general community consensus is that she's either balanced (Scorpionz's community, me, a lot of Pig mains I know) or among the worst killers in the game (most other people). I can understand not buffing her, but nerfing? Is it just for consistency purposes? Will she be getting buffed in the future to compensate? Thanks ^-^
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Yep! I like the new one. Well done!
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"Pig's Ambush, however, IS different from her normal attack. It has a different set-up and execution option from if you were to normally lunge. Another Killer that falls under this is the Demogorgon."
I'm fairly certain you just countered yourself right there. I didn't know that all killers' normal lunges involved crouching down and charging.
But even without this consistency argument, the nerf was unjustified. Pig does not need any more nerfs. If anything, she needs a buff. Balance is far more important than consistency. I'd actually argue that consistency - in the sense that most killers function like others - is a bad thing. You get less variety in the killers you play as or against, leading to less fun on both sides.
The general opinion of the community appears to be that Pig actually needs buffing, not nerfing. Personally, I don't think she needs a direct buff. She just needs to return to what she was on release, but with all the extra QoL changes they gave her:
- 28m TR
- 1.3s base crouch time (1s with Combat Straps)
- Dash counts as a basic attack, and possibly even make it benefit from STBFL
- The only nerf I'd consider somewhat justified was the Endgame one, especially since it still kinda works if you start popping traps at 1 gen left.
Another thing that really irritates me is that, from the perspective of a Pig main who has put effort and time into learning the intricacies of her power, it feels like I'm being punished for trying to use her ambush in a skillful way. We're slowly heading to a point where the W+M1 Endfury NOED Pig is the optimal playstyle, and ######### nobody likes the W+M1 Endfury NOED Pigs.
Her ambush provides a nice chase power that is neither overpowered nor unfun to play against. Why the ######### is it getting nerfed while Nurse and Spirit aren't?
TL;DR - Pig doesn't need nerfs, she doesn't need consistency, STOP NERFING HER PLS TY
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@GrootDude said:
These are bug fixes after a change, the change is a nerf and a buff in some ways.
The only buff in this instance is not losing stacks of STBFL after you dash the obsession. One survivor out of four, when running one specific perk. And you also can't gain stacks of STBFL with the dash if you hit any of the other three survivors. And STBFL doesn't even affect the dash!
In exchange, the dash loses all synergy with:
- Make Your Choice
- Devour Hope
- NOED
but I don't care because ######### noed - Rancor's Exposed effect
- Haunted Ground
- Iron Maiden
- Sloppy Butcher
- Dark Devotion
- Franklin's Demise
- Third Seal
- Remember Me
- Surge
Nice buff you got there.
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Why Pig? That's my question. What does Pig have that the devs keep seeing fit to nerf?
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Fair enough.
I don't think slowing vault or running speed is the right idea for S&S. It'd either be useless or OP, no in-between.
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@dfrenchiee said:
These aren't nerfs though, they're bug fixes
I'm referring to the "Pig's dash is no longer a basic attack", which I discussed as a nerf in my other thread here. That wasn't a bug. In the PTB, Exposed worked on her dash, which I thought was intentional - apparently, ever since the basic attack change, Exposed was never meant to work.
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Discordance is meta? I don't have it proc that often whenever I run it.
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In total honesty, I don't want Survivors to have to double-pip either. I just want equality lol
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Striker and S&S seem completely unfun to play against. The speed values are way too high - an extra 20% in chase means that any sort of pallet becomes uselessly unsafe. As for S&S, halving vault speed basically means you might as well just stand still. I like Hell Breaks Loose, though, although it could be construed as a bandaid fix for gen tapping.
Keep at it! ^-^
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nuuu don't remove the roar then we can't oink at people
Okay, here's some serious feedback from a Pig main.
- The roar playing during the ambush is unnecessary imo, and removes Pig's ability to "oink" at people. Pig's meme game is near the top, and it's part of what makes her so endearing and fun to play against. If it matters that much to you, just uncrouch at gens instead of ambushing. Worst case scenario, you get the hit anyway through M1. Best case, you get a grab and don't have to waste time chasing someone.
- Crouching now takes 1 second? Nice QoL change. Unnecessary, but nice.
- Crouching being at 4m/s is also unnecessary. With Pig, you don't want to be crouching around the map. Just crouch whenever you come within a certain radius of the gens (32m base, 24m with M&A). Or just crouch while Whispers is active, if you can't be bothered to learn distances :P
- I kinda like the box changes, when it comes to needing 2 separate keys. That's actually how it works now: each RBT has its own key, which is placed into a random box when the match starts. Needing 2 keys means you'll end up with a failsafe against survivors getting it off after the first box, but as long as you don't add more boxes, they're still fairly balanced.
- Traps should not be able to consistently kill survivors. They are tools to stall, and any Game Over should be treated like a kobe - a pleasant surprise, not something to rely on or expect.
- Combat Straps - Sure, works for me.
- Razor Wires - Cool.
- Annotated Plan - If you're going to make it increase stall efficiency, give it a downside of increasing the timer by 30-60 seconds or so. There's a reason Tampered Timer is so unfun to play against: increasing lethality of RBTs, which are essentially luck-based, is not good design.
- Sketch - Same as above.
- Amanda's Secret - Nice, I like this. The addon as it stands is kinda useless.
- Amanda's Letter - Personally, I think the downside should just be that it removes your RBTs entirely, but gives you the 12m aura reading while crouched and buffs your dash attack. Maybe make it faster, last longer, etc.
- Bag of Gears - Cool.
- Crate of Gears - Cool.
All in all, I like these changes. They're mostly quality of life tweaks that make Pig more fun to play, without significantly affecting her power. Well done!
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Looking forward to it! ^-^
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Please, BHVR, don't turn into EA. Nobody likes EA.
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New perks is usually a good thing, isn't it? More variety. More versatility.
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Interesting point. Any rebuttal?
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While we're on the topic of perks, actually - Mystoc mentioned having different perk sets for each killer. What do you people think? New perks? If so, any ideas?
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I love that backstory. Short and sweet, tied into the Lucid - well done! ^-^
As for the Perks:
Fear the Dark - Given how busted Object is right now, I'm inclined to think "see the killer's aura" is going to be kinda unfun. Perhaps instead you could give a bit of an action speed boost for a while after failing a skill check?
Proper Procedure - Always nice to have bigger great skill check zones. What would the killer not be notified of? A failed skill check?
Breaking Point - Seems a little bit underpowered to me, to be quite honest. I like the concept of having a boost on your last hook, though!
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I named them collectively "The Lucid" because their power takes place inside their dreams - similarly to how Freddy works, the survivors are passed back and forth between Adrienne's dream and Seraphine's dream. "Lucid dreaming" is essentially when you are aware that you're dreaming, and thus, in control of it. That's the meaning behind Lucid's name, although "Twins" would also work.
Survivors in Adrienne's dream can only hear Adrienne's terror radius, not Seraphine's. Vice versa. What do you mean by "Does the killer who isn't in that surv realm have an aura?"
You can solo-queue as Lucid, and it'll pair you up with another Lucid player. You'd select which sister to play as upon entering the lobby. I could have it so that the sisters see the other's aura. I'm not sure; thoughts, anyone?
"A two player killer both need 110% to be fair" - Uh... I disagree, personally. Lucid is set up so that each sister has their own playstyle - Adrienne is focused on the chase, and Seraphine is focused on stealth. They get hits through different ways. If Adrienne had 110% speed, her entire playstyle would be essentially invalidated. This goes for your "give them the same power" point as well - they have different playstyles for a reason.
Could you elaborate on how their active powers are too strong? Awakening only gives each sister a mild bonus.
You know, Myers at T2 with M&A only has an 8m TR. 4m with Dead Rabbit. And he's still 115 - Seraphine is 110. I wouldn't say Myers is too strong.
Small is like Hag small. Definitely not Chucky small.
Clairvoyance: I personally don't see how "you can see through corn for X metres" is super hard to code. You could simply make it invisible on the killer's screen for up to X metres, rather than removing it and replacing it. As for deciding what is corn - well, each corn stalk is the same. I think there would only be one or two different "textures" for corn, if even that, and the same would go for swamp grass. They're all just assets, similarly to how only killers can see scratch marks.
Blood Pact: Did you mean Save the Best for Last? Blood Pact is meant to be a more consistent version - instead of having between 0% and 40%, you have a constant 25% at tier 3. Furthermore, striking a Survivor makes them your Obsession, which means you can combo it with other perks like Play With Your Food and Rancor.
Deadly Sin: This perk is a gimmick, yes. I don't believe all perks need to be consistently strong - Head On, for example, is not that strong. But it's fun to use, because when it works, it works well. Same with Deadly Sin. The survivor's fake heartbeat lasts 30 seconds as well.
The perks kinda do match Lucid's "flavour", in my eyes, but even if they weren't... I have to design perks with other killers in mind as well, since they can run these perks too.
As for different perks between sisters... well, maybe. I simply couldn't think of any lol
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@csandman1977 said:
I like the concept a lot, but i do have an issue. The way it's set up, by ping ponging hits on survivors, I'm not sure it would encourage spreading out. The most effective way would be to stick somewhat close to each other so one could push the survivor towards a loop after getting a hit while the other is there to cut off the loop and down the survivor. Can people be hit during dream transition?
Lucid is set up so that each sister is individually very weak. If they focus both their efforts on one survivor - especially since one is 110% MS - they will lose. Lucid's power is to spread double map pressure, that's it.
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I disagree that this perk is overpowered. My only suggestion is to remove the aura blindness - as it stands, it's a better Third Seal.
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Damn, that's a lot of effort for a survivor. Perks seem pretty nice, although situational - but no, Lucid doesn't use the same sleeping mechanics as Freddy. There isn't a way to wake up; you're either in Adrienne's Dream or Seraphine's Dream.
Other than that, well done! I'll add the perks to the original post once they're rebalanced and credit you ^-^
(I'd add the lore as well, but that'd make the already-too-long post even longer so I'll just say it's on page 2)
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I have a friend who would genuinely ######### that. I might join him. This looks stunning!
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Hey hey, let's all chill for a bit. It's all well and good to have a little argument, but it's starting to get a little heated, so let's take it down a notch.
- There isn't a survivor associated with Lucid. This is mostly because the only thing that would actually matter with a survivor is the perks - survivors are basically just skins. If you have any ideas, though, feel free to post them! I'll add them to the original post after a bit of discussion.
- The sisters each have their eyes open, they're just blank. This is their dream, though... so maybe the "real" bodies - the ones not in the trial - have their eyes closed? Mystery, woooo~
- I love that too! My only problem is that, canonically, all the killers either died or went missing, and then got snatched by the Entity. I was trying to fit the lore into that. Maybe they could've drowned in the river, for example? Post your ideas!
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@Legion_Is_Best said:
I just thought of something, Adrienne could pin the survivor down with her blade and pulling them until they’re leg is pulled off then doing the same on the other leg.
Kinda reminds me of one of Jason's fatalities in MKX. Maybe!
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/636524#Comment_636524
Maybe dont look at the specific weapon and look what could be done with a knife.
- Jumping ontop someone and gutting them like a pig
- Punching them so they fall on their knees so you can stab them through the neck from behind
- Straddling someone and stabbing them multiple times in the torso, hands, face
- Stabbing the scissor in their face and then stomping on it
- That thing those twitchy slashers do with isaac clarke in dead space
- Lifting them by the neck and sta... Wait thats myers'
- Stabbing them in the abdomen and lifting them up while their weight cuts them in half
- Simply lifting them up by their hair and slashimg their throat
Now excuse me while i hug some puppies
Btw nice how much attention your concept is getting
I think stabbing the scissor into their face and stomping on it might be my favourite idea.
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@Legion_Is_Best said:
In my opinion, seeing Adrienne holding the survivor by the foot and carving Adrienne would be cool
For Seraphine, maybe the survivor gets up, scared and looking around then Seraphine appears behind the survivor and stabs them through the eye ( a reference to her waking dream benefits)
I think that's my favourite idea for Seraphine's so far. Adrienne's mori might be a bit tricky. How do you convey brute force with a scissor blade?