Jallybwan
Jallybwan
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Nevermind, I figured out the issue. I was looking at WindowsNoEditor since that's what I remember from before, but for whatever reason the game now uses Windows Client. And that file was ticked read-only for some reason. My bad.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269324#Comment_3269324
Thank you. People like you keep me coming back to these forums. Otherwise I'd feel like I'm going crazy.
I'm ngl that's been my response to this thread for the most part! There are some people opposing for weird reasons but for the most part people seem really supportive of an FOV slider, which is a lot better of a response than I got a few years back asking a similar question.
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@cburton311 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3268532#Comment_3268532
I don't disagree with the accessibility, but let's not pretend that FOV is the biggest issue, and whether you like it or not it changes how killers receive information. Wider field of view = more information. Killers already have tools for dealing with flashlights.
It really doesn't change how killers receive information, at least not in a way that would affect stealth as a playstyle. You see a few more degrees on either side; this has the downside of making objects appear further away (and thus smaller), and as @Brimp righly brought up, higher FOV makers a player's eyes have to process more information. If anything, this makes it easier for a killer to miss someone hiding if they have high FOV.
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@MrMori said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3267400#Comment_3267400
You honestly think increasing FOV would increase kill rates by 10%? This is disingenuous. If that was the case, Shadowborn would be far more popular. Everyone knows that if you replace Shadowborn with a strong regression perk you'll get more kills. When survivors check the killers perks it's not Shadowborn they're gonna complain about.
I think we can safely add Shadowborn basekit, monitor the results it has on killrates, and decide accordingly.
Isn't it pretty telling that BHVR added the "Last Survivor" FOV increase under "Accessibility" options? I don't care how the game was designed 6 years ago before the devs even knew how the game would play out. That argument is outdated and not even necessarily a good representation of what direction the devs want the game to go today. Not that you said anything about that, but many claim this is the "Original balance decision" by the devs when in reality I wouldn't be surprised if it was a default option in Unreal Engine.
Add a slider, add a toggle I don't care. It's lame to balance the game around it being inconvenient to play.
Well said. ^^
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@cburton311 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3263198#Comment_3263198
so if the current kill rates are 60% and buffing killers by increasing their field of view made it 65 or 70%, survivors should just suck that up...okay
If anything, increasing the killer's FOV could arguably be considered a nerf. You have a wider flashlight blind angle, and that's much more significant gameplay-wise than being able to see in front of you a little easier.
It's not about buffs or nerfs, it's just about simple accessibility changes that this game needs. ^_^
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PSA: Increased FOV would actually buff stealth, not nerf it. Higher FOV means you're making what's already on screen smaller to fit more of the environment in, so as long as you're not moving, you take up less of the screen. It also buffs flashlights (source: wiki page on Shadowborn) and doesn't allow killers to see over/around things they couldn't already (increases peripheral vision only; does not change the angle you're looking from).
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@Remedicist said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3255057#Comment_3255057
That's not entirely true. When you increase FOV, you see what is around you a bit easier at the cost of clarity when it comes to seeing farther. As the camera gets wider, objects seem farther. If you put on Shadowborn, you'll notice farther objects are a bit harder to see, but you can see more objects around you. This means that a person with a higher FOV may miss a distant visual cue like a crow flying off, but see what is happening closely around them a bit better. Higher FOV is not inherently a good thing, it's simply all about preference. Some people don't like the wider view because of the fisheye effect, while others need it because of their motion sickness.
Great explanation!
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@SunsetSherbet said:
Why would there be a slider? That's like having a slider to make your killer slower. Why would you ever do that? Higher FOV gives a massive advantage, so who would ever have it low? A slider makes no sense at all. Might as well have a slider for how often your killer M1 works.
If you just increase FOV overall, it will be a buff. Which plenty will be against. I'm not against increasing the FOV, but a slider is pointless. It would be a slider to handicap yourself.
I'm not against just straight up increasing the FOV, but there are some people who say they're more comfortable at a lower FOV. I wanted to accommodate those people as well, is all. ^_^
Also, with higher FOV, it gives less of an advantage than you might think. This coming week, try swapping one of your perks out for Shadowborn and keep it locked in. If you wanna change builds, you have to leave Shadowborn in. At the end of the week, see if it gave you the same value as the perk you swapped it out for. That's probably the best way to simulate what us motion sickness sufferers have to deal with.
Double also, in DBD specifically, a higher FOV actually makes you more susceptible to flashlight blinds (source: wiki, Shadowborn's page), in exchange for a few degrees' worth of extra info you could technically find by just looking slightly left or slightly right. I think instead of calling it a massive advantage, it would be more accurate to say it has ups and downs, no?
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@Chadku said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254859#Comment_3254859
Survivors get highlighted in white like they do in Nightfall within 32m?
It would help against blending, perks like Distortion and distortion-like perks.
Definitely an interesting idea! I'd probably turn the numbers down a fair amount but it'd fit the whole theme of Shadowborn pretty nicely.
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Hi, I'm one of the people who has to run Shadowborn on certain killers to not get motion sick. What ideas did you have for a Shadowborn rework? :)
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3251858#Comment_3251858
You're asking people to take a penalty in order to actually be able to play the game without getting sick. They're already at a penalty of sacrificing a perk slot to potentially get less sick while playing. A big issue people never seem to understand in accessibility discussions is that they are already at an advantage vs people affected by the issue, the field is being normalized, not stacked against you.
Beautifully put. The field is being normalized. An FOV slider is a pro-balance change.
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@cburton311 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3251867#Comment_3251867
If 1st person games make them sick, maybe this game isnt for them. I suspect people claim accessibility as a argument winner, but in this case who wouldnt take more FOV. Motion sick and others alike would all enjoy more field of view because it grants an advantage.
You conveniently overlook the second part of my post which allows for a way to grant more FOV at a balancing cost elsewhere.
I mean... this is kinda what I mean when I say I feel scorned, and I'm sure others like me can say the same. First person games don't usually make me sick, because most of them have more than 87 FOV, and/or an option to adjust my FOV to something I'm comfortable with. Adding an FOV slider, even just between 87 and 102 degrees, would be such a minor change - but it would make a world of difference to me and many others who suffer from motion sickness. It constantly feels like we're being told to just shut up and deal with it, when the change that would drastically increase our quality of life would have barely any impact on everyone else whatsoever.
While I do understand the hesitation to implement anything that could be considered a gameplay element - skepticism can even be healthy - please, take a moment to reflect. Have you ever been able to tell a killer was running Shadowborn? If killers could get Shadowborn as a basekit perk, would that really have such a huge impact on balance?
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@duygu said:
they're going to see my arm sticking out from that tire i was immersing behind of
They actually won't! Increased horizontal FOV doesn't let killers see around corners any more than usual; it just increases their peripheral vision to include more on the screen at once. If you have something between you and the killer, they're not going to see you no matter how much FOV they have. No need to worry about that. ^_^
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@cburton311 said:
Players running stretched views to see more would disagree. BHVR had to patch that out because of the advantage it granted.
Stretched res was an issue because it increased vertical FOV on survivors and killers who fatigued (e.g. Nurse, Legion), no? An increase to the killer's horizontal FOV wouldn't provide that same issue.
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@Pizzaman said:
Sorry, but I just can't follow the thought process.
Now according to you, BT is/was the strongest Perk. But the constant crying (at least if you followed this forum regulary) was about DeadHard instead. Some people said that Iron Will was the strongest Perk (Scott Jund was one of them). But for others it was Object of Obsession (you know, because of the whole "see the killer at all times and relay his exact GPS coordinates to all team members in realtime while someone is in a chase to counter any killer mindgames"-trope). Lot's of people, lot's of opinions. But sure as hell there no consensus about "THE STRONGEST PERK"™.
So why again is this about "BT for Shadowborn"? Because you sifted through the Internet and found ONE post on reddit about it.
Also, BT becoming basekit was just another bandaix fix for a gameplay issue. Prior to Patrick mentioning it in a dev stream there were no discussions about making BT basekit, aka getting a bandaidfix. And nobody needed to be "onboard" with any of the changes anyway, because the devs just change things.
And people mentioning their ailments to justify game changes when it's convenient (Flashlights causing "epileptic episodes", now FOV causing nausea), just rubs me the wrong way and it feels like those people are desperately looking for any reason to act as a "PRO" because they just don't have strong arguments to make their case.
Please read my exact wording again - I said one of the strongest perks, not the strongest perk. I think most people would agree BT was one of the strongest, even if opinions differ as to it being THE strongest.
And this isn't about "BT for Shadowborn", this is about FOV being added as an accessibility option. When people "mention their ailments to justify gameplay changes", it's probably because those ailments are causing issues for them? I'm not really sure what you expect. Flashing lights have a known link to epilepsy, getting clicked in the face a lot is a flashing light. I think they should've just added an option to turn the visuals for flashlights off, rather than nerfing their click speed, but you can't exactly tell someone with an ailment that they're just making it up for a gameplay advantage.
There have been plenty of strong arguments backed by science presented in this thread, I recommend going and reading some of the stuff @Ryuhi has posted, for example; they've been very enlightening :)
But I think this idea that people are "just making it up" is unhelpful at best, and outright toxic at worse. Low FOV has been linked through both scientific research and experience to motion sickness; this isn't an isolated incident of one or two people. There have been a lot of people in this very thread who have testified to the low FOV causing nausea, and while I understand the suspicion that we're just making it up, it really feels like we're being told our health is less important than minor gameplay elements. I'm sure you can understand how that would build resentment. ^_^
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3250435#Comment_3250435
BHVR could just make a spin rate limit, similar to how they gave Blight a rush turn rate limit. In fact, BHVR made two separate rush turn rate limits on Blight, so I'm sure they can figure out how to give survivors a spin rate limit.
The problem with aim dressing is that it causes attacks to get verified twice. If the server verifies a hit, it should give the killer the hit, then it can yank the camera or do whatever else it wants to make the hit look nice. It shouldn't verify a hit, yank the camera, then verify again if the hit is still valid.
Eh, it's just not really an issue to me. I'm more concerned with just FOV stuff.
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@FlameGNG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248047#Comment_3248047
360 isnt really removed you can still moon walk and do an almost as good as the old spin
Yeah, this too. If a killer gets spun nowadays it's usually on them, although I can see situations where console gamers especially would get screwed. Usually by aim dressing. More often than not, I see survivors try to spin, fail, and then waste their speed boost running in circles, haha. Unless you're about to go down it's usually a better option to just take the hit and run away.
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@nora_the_explora said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3250350#Comment_3250350
Well if u read the previous replies and one of the topics of the OP we were talking about how the killers fov is making survivors able to 360 easily especially if the killer is on console, the rest is all stuff related to it.. it makes your reply kida off topic too, but I don’t think is much of a deal no?
I didn't even consider 360s, tbh. I get spun sometimes if I'm not paying attention, but it happens with or without Shadowborn, so I've never really seen it as an FOV issue.
That being said, if people are opposed to an FOV slider because it would weaken stuff like 360s and FOV techs, I think we collectively need to take a step back and ask what we should be prioritizing. These movement techs are cool and all and feel satisfying to pull off, but I feel like player health should be more important than that, no?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3250192#Comment_3250192
The problem with 360s is that survivors are going over the intended spin rate. If a survivor holds down the shift key, and cycles through the W/A/S/D keys, that is the intended spin rate. But people are bypassing this, and that should be removed. Remember that Blight had a way to bypass his intended rush turn rate, and that got fixed. This is the same situation.
I mean, I kinda understand that, but at the same time I don't think that's something that can physically be "fixed" in that sense. I've been playing Elden Ring a lot recently, and you can spin faster when rotating the camera in the opposite direction in that game, too.
I don't really think 360s need to be fixed, but I'm a mouse and keyboard gamer. I can imagine the aim dressing might cause issues for console gamers, so if we want to fix 360s, I think we should just remove aim dressing, no?
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@sulaiman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3250357#Comment_3250357
Maybe you read the thread title again. This is not about accessibility issues, its about the reasons why people oppose possible changes. So bringing the focus to accessibility is actually the derailment.
I mean, in my eyes an FOV slider is entirely about accessibility issues. FOV may have a slight impact on gameplay, but my primary reason to ask for an FOV slider is for accessibility. It feels bad to have to waste a perk slot to play certain killers without wanting to throw up, that's all. ^_^
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@TotemSeeker91 said:
Well I mean, why would anyone handicap themselves with lower FOV
Some people just feel more comfortable with a lower FOV, so I wanted an FOV slider rather than just basekit Shadowborn to make sure they're happy as well. As for gameplay, a lower FOV means a smaller angle you can be flashlight blinded at (source: Shadowborn's page on the wiki). FOV has ups and downs in DBD, but it's mostly just a comfort thing.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3250024#Comment_3250024
The people I called entitled are the ones who protested the new animations, and no one else. Yes, I'll fight over 3 seconds. That's like 2 years for killer. The difference between a gen getting done in your face or not. You say most can't pull off a 360, but as a rough estimate, once survivors think I'm on console, they immediately try to go for 360s in about half my matches or more. That's not something you instinctually do if it's as unreliable as people say it vs good killers. In matches where I'm playing Legion or another killer whose momentum is ruined by a single miss with their power, survivors attempt to 360, or do some kind of tricky movement, basically 100% of the time. There's no denying that in situations where survivors are running near pallet loops, which they should always be doing, 1 successful 360 allows them to get to that pallet, and if the killer has to break it, the entire chase resets, so how could those 3 seconds be insignificant?
There is a way to virtually remove 360s. You give us the old "new" animations back, you make survivors' hitboxes or the killers' attacks a little bit more generous, and/or you take away auto-aim, aim dressing, and lunge rollbacks which take away the killers' rightful hits. And just throwing this out there, maybe survivors shouldn't be able to go from standing to a full speed sprint instantly. It's what makes shack's window reactable for survivors, it's what makes waiting around for the killer to chase them so safe, so on and so forth. But anyway, wanting to down a survivor in 10 seconds, while entitled in an ideal world, is not entitled in this game state. 10-second chases against efficient survivors is still barely an even playing field, because they're always on gens and doing each in like 72 seconds because of great skill checks, and that's at base with no toolboxes or anything, and that's not even taking into account time spent walking around the map to get into those chases. It's expected of killers to have chases that short, else all they get is "You should have pressured more."
I think the problem is less 360s and more just the "aim dressing" BHVR keeps insisting isn't a thing. I'm sure we'd agree 360s are a preferable alternative to being W keyed and predropped for 5 minutes, but I can imagine it's a little more annoying to deal with on console. I don't think 360s are the problem, I think bad auto aim/aim dressing is.
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@eleventbh said:
I used to think everyone would just max out the slider. They probably will but it doesn't matter that much. If it did Shadowborn would be meta.
Most people probably will max it out, yeah, but that just means most people like playing with a higher FOV. Good point about Shadowborn being meta.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249391#Comment_3249391
Most people don't want win/win with this game, they only want win for them lose for their opponent. The game has been focused around advantage stacking for so long a lot of people probably don't even realize when they do it.
I wouldn't even say most people, tbh. I've noticed a lot less opposition to adjustable FOV recently, even though there are still some people against it for whatever reason. Most of the people in this thread are supportive of it, and most people in the community at large range from supportive to indifferent.
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@Vampwire said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249111#Comment_3249111
no clue it'd make flashlights stronger since u can get better angles. i thought they'd be nuts for that.
That's what I'm saying! I'm more confused than anything else. Stealth doesn't suffer at all from increased FOV, but it's a direct buff to flashlights (which I'm sure many would agree could use a buff after last patch). It's a win-win for everyone.
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@Vampwire said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249233#Comment_3249233
considering stretched res literally didnt do anything u couldn't do with the camera before i dont see the problem.
I kept seeing this debated back and forth, I can't even remember which side was right, but the main reason for stretched res being dubious was how it messed with Ghostface's reveal system (since that has to do with the centre of your screen rather than the edges). I think it also increased vertical FOV on both survivor and killer a little bit, which was a much bigger issue on the survivor end because of the third-person camera; at least that's how I understand it.
Either way, stretched res is kind of a moot point nowadays.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249135#Comment_3249135
you are not aware correctly, then. As already stated, FoV depends on multiple factors including viewing size and distance, it is actually generally preferable for it to be lower on consoles due to being more likely to be sitting further away, for example.
Since people are actually having discussion on the topic, might as well repost the game design explanation of why different FoVs matter, and their impact relative to multiplatform support:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249137#Comment_3249137
You've been doing nothing but step on people who suffer from FoV related motion sickness and framing them as just killers wanting another advantage this whole topic. Please take your own criticism.
Great vid.
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As a serious response to this, even if adjustable FOV gets added, stealth will be just fine. This isn't a situation in which a minority gets screwed over for another minority. This is a situation where everyone who plays killer at all benefits, and everyone who plays survivor barely notices any change.
This is one of the few times where survivors don't have to lose for killers to win. ^_^
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249129#Comment_3249129
I don't see the need to support lower levels of FoV if you introduce higher levels of FoV, since, as far as I'm aware, there are no accessibility concerns for a low FoV. It seems that people get motion sickness from a smaller FoV as well.
What do you mean by no accessibility concerns for a low FOV? Are you talking about people getting motion sickness from too much FOV? Because while that doesn't happen to me personally, I've heard a couple of people bring it up. That's pretty much the only reason I'm asking for a slider instead of just a flat FOV increase, so that people who prefer a lower FOV are happy, too.
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249116#Comment_3249116
Whatever the maximum changes to, should be the default. IMO even having the slider is a bit much, as it means from an artistic (and QA) standpoint you can't be certain all players will be viewing something the same way.
While I do understand that view to some extent, I think FOV falls a lot more squarely into the quality of life/comfort/accessibility pool than gameplay balance. There are some elements of both, don't get me wrong, but I think there are more important aspects of DBD's balance than how many degrees of FOV the killer gets.
From an artistic standpoint, well, I can't really comment because I'm not an experienced artist. However, since DBD is a game, I think that while art is important, the most important thing to consider is gameplay. From a gameplay perspective, I think having an adjustable FOV should be implemented because it'd make the most people happy gameplay-wise. If someone feels comfortable with 90 FOV, they should be able to play at 90 FOV. If someone feels comfortable with 105 FOV, they should be able to play with 105 FOV. Little stuff like that goes a long way towards a positive gameplay experience, no?
If a full-on slider would be too much, perhaps a few set "levels" of FOV would be better? Something like 85, 90, 95, 100 and 105, as opposed to "any number between 85 and 105"?
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248886#Comment_3248886
Change your argument then. When I hear FoV slider I think of Quake.
Normalizing the camera to modern First Person FoV values is more succinct.
I think by FOV slider, most of us mean being able to adjust your FOV to any number between ~85 and ~105 or so. The only reason we're not just straight up asking for basekit Shadowborn is out of consideration for the people who are more comfy with lower FOVs, if that makes sense.
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@Sava18 said:
Let's all be real, if they add an fov slider to the game, that's just a blight buff. Me and probably 1/2 of all blight's in this game run it. Tbh I don't even know what I would use in 4 perk builds anymore, seems kinda foreign.
Fellow Blight main, hi! I'd eat a Blight nerf or two in exchange for an FOV slider tbh. I'd just replace Shadowborn with some QoL or meme perk like Mad Grit or Deerstalker. Blight doesn't need good perks to do well.
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@Vampwire said:
i have literally never heard anyone say this.
You'd be surprised. There are a few people in this thread saying it. I think it is a minority view, but I've seen it pop up every time I've brought up adjustable FOV in the past, and I still don't understand why.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248886#Comment_3248886
4 is correct except for clown, you can see into his belly.
I think killers see a different first-person model than survivors do, right? They could reduce the belly on Clown's first-person model a little, while keeping it the same for the model survivors see. (Source: Demo's hands are in a different position in first-person compared to what survivors see, and his shadow makes it very clear).
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@AssortedSorting said:
I assume all FoV altering Perks and addons will be retired/reworked? What will their new effects be?
How would you address people that still want a higher FoV than what you think the limit should be?
What is the best FoV limit to address most motion sickness issues?
How long are you willing to wait for every 1st person Killer model to be reworked to accommodate all levels of FoV?
What kind of LoS bush-like objects should be added to loops so survivors can retain some ambiguities on location while the Killer performs a vault or a break action?
All great questions!
- Monitor can have its FOV effects removed entirely, and tier 1/2/3 can simply be changed to reduce the Terror Radius by 6/7/8 metres instead. As for Shadowborn, I'd honestly be content with them killswitching the perk entirely until they can think of a new effect, but this is a good opportunity to brainstorm. I had the idea that it'd allow you to see through corn, bamboo and swamp grass within a small radius, something like 4/6/8 metres in a circle around you. It could just make the models invisible or partially transparent within that radius.
- It depends on what FOV they're after! I can think of a couple limits that would be reasonable. 120 would be the absolute max due to engine constraints iirc, 102 would be current Shadowborn, 105 would be a nice round number, same with 100. 110 is the max FOV Minecraft uses, and that was my first experience with first-person games in general, so I got used to anything between 100-110.
- I believe it would depend on the person. Some people are more comfortable between 90-100, I personally am comfortable between 100-110.
- Thankfully, we wouldn't have to wait at all! Shadowborn doesn't cause any major camera issues as far as I'm aware, at 102 degrees of FOV. But in the event that there would be issues, I'd be willing to wait a few months, as long as BHVR gave us confirmation that they're adding adjustable FOV.
- I don't think this is necessary, actually! Blinding people at pallets while they're in the break animation is already a common strategy, and flashlights are super easy to come by in the bloodweb. If BHVR chose to add a few bushes to each loop anyway, though, I wouldn't mind so much. Lord knows Trapper needs the buff!
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@sulaiman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248375#Comment_3248375
Why do you think it is my first instinct? This is not a new question that never before was thought of, you know.
And yes, if it affects game balance, it has to be considered. Thats why, when i asked for a color blind mode, i explicitly proposed changes that would affect my colorblindness, but would not affect game balance, even though i would still have a disadvantage that way.
And thats why i ask the people with motion sickness how they would compensate the balance change they ask for, but it seems most people just dont care about the balance that doesnt affect them.
While I do think there is a place for stealth in DBD, I think a lot of people tend to overestimate how much of a difference FOV makes for stealthy survivors. In fact, there's someone in this thread ( @Akumakaji ) who experimented running Shadowborn vs no Shadowborn, and found no noticeable difference against stealthy survivors.
Which does actually remind me of something - anyone who's against an FOV slider, but who's actually interested in the discussion instead of just being that guy, I encourage you to swap one of your perks for Shadowborn for a week. See if it makes a difference for you other than just feeling nice, and more than that, see if it makes up for the perk you had to replace to use Shadowborn. I'd be curious to see if anyone actually does this.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248372#Comment_3248372
Motion sickness through things like FoV is caused by your inner ear being miscalibrated on whether you are moving or not, and any uncanny valley sensations that confuse it in the process. A lot of it has to do with your primary and periphery vision, as one says you are moving and the other says you are sitting still. Thats part of why its not a "higher = gooder" situation, as it depends on how your view calibrates to everything you are seeing including outside the screen.
Thanks! I'm glad to know I'm not just being a dumbass, haha.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248344#Comment_3248344
Because it's simply not worth taking up a perk slot. I never see Shadowborn run personally at all, and I would never use it, because it doesn't give you any advantage. Evidenced by the fact that stretched res (which does the same for first person view as an increased FoV) didn't offer any advantage to the killer.
Try working out if the killer has Shadowborn based on the angle of their red stain. You can't. It's negligible. But in terms of ease of playing, in terms of quality of life, it would make the game feel much better.
Beautifully put.
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@sulaiman said:
yes it would negate, because a lot of times you have to rely on turning a corner and ducking down and the killer not seeing you at once. That is a thing, even if you claim it shouldn´t be a thing. Do you have any arguments why not?
Also, any sources to back up the claim people only use shadowborn for mothin sickness and never for advantage? I mean we had people claim in this forum they only used streched res for astetics, not for advantage.
Check the post above for a Reddit link with video, but here's my question - when someone says something gives them motion sickness, why is your first instinct to question them? If someone says they're colourblind, would it be alright to question that? If someone says they're hard of hearing, would it be alright to question them about it?
I'm not really sure how to give you "evidence" that playing without Shadowborn gives me motion sickness on some killers, because I can't exactly swap bodies with you. I don't even know how motion sickness works from a physiological standpoint; I just know that playing without it on Blight, Nurse, Oni and Demo (possibly others) makes me feel nauseous. I'm glad you don't suffer from it, but some of us do, and giving us an adjustable FOV would really help with that.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248347#Comment_3248347
Technically stretched res did have advantages for killer, but only very specific cases and only due to its change to the vertical and not horizontal view. Nurses could use it to be able to see a bit better while fatigued due to it having more viewing potential at the top of the screen, same with any other camera locks that force the camera downward like billy's chainsaw. Nowhere near the same thing, but it was more than nothing.
That said, don't bother with the arguments. People thinking that higher FoV means no stealth don't even understand how FoV works, its relation to human FoV (roughly 135 degrees when including peripheral,) the physiology of why FoV issues cause motion sickness, or even simple concepts like not every player uses the same display size/distance. They're ignorant at best, disingenuous at worst. You can explain it all day but if they disagree they'll be right back in the next topic spewing the same misinformation.
Would you be willing to explain some of that stuff, actually? Mostly the physiology part. As I understand it:
1) Lower FOVs give your brain less information to process, which can "weird it out" so to speak.
2) Lower FOVs force you to move your camera more (good example here), which would definitely contribute to motion sickness for more sensitive people.
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@oxygen said:
I'd prefer if it was simply a FOV increase because I've had my fill of default settings being just plain bad and inferior from playing a lot of TF2, where standard fov values (both general fov and how much of your screen your gun takes up) are set at very uh, outdated levels. Yes, you just have to open the options menu, but the amount of new players that never figure it out... But sure, do add a FOV slider but please make sure to advertise it, maybe even show it on first game launch with a picture you can see at different FOV levels so people are 100% aware that it's an option.
For me it's all about being able to see more and how some actually feel physically uncomfortable playing with low fov though. 360s, fov tech and all of that are just some of the MANY "knowledge checks" in the game that come from everything from perks to base mechanics. Should stuff like performance and controls (especially on console) be improved? Of course, that's very important and would help a lot when it comes to dealing with stuff like that.
I'd take just a flat FOV increase, I just added the slider because I met one person the last time I talked about this who said they were more comfortable with a low FOV. No reason not to have the option, imo.
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@sulaiman said:
The thing is, stealth should be a survivor strategie in this game. There are killers and perks that can handle stealth easily, but for others, its a good counter, and should be a thing.
In basic design, stealth was inbuild in this game, but it got nerfed more and more because for a lot of players, the game just resolves around one aspect of the game, chases. However, not for all of us.
So i am not really opposed to a basekit shadowborn, but noone ever answered me what they would offer in return to keep stealth play alive.
Optical things like the fov, dark corners in maps and stuff are made to balance and give survivors options beside chasing. But people use brightness filters, so playing with a killers fov is one of the last things left to juke a killer in a chase.
If you want an honest answer for what I would buff in exchange for stealth, I'd buff Fixated to something like 40% increased walk speed. That'd be a hefty buff against Spirit, who I know a lot of people hate playing against, and would make for some really interesting walk plays to break chase. I think we can agree that crouching in a corner of the map for 20 minutes is an unhealthy playstyle, so I'd love to see a couple buffs to the "break chase via stealth" playstyle.
I don't necessarily agree with the idea that buffing one side should always come with "compensation" for the other, but I'd be fine with this change specifically. ^_^
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You are the most based person in this thread ily
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248064#Comment_3248064
During the last wave of motion sickness discussions you guys convinced me and I now support your claim. Also, contrasting Shadowborn with Borrowed Time seems weird, as how weak Shadowborn is in comparison, even though this kinda comparisons shouldn't be made, but still, this shows that it should actually be a non-issue and Shadowborn should probably give another buff. Better nightvision would be thematic, but I guess survivors love being undetectable in the Garden of Joy main building, so this would be a hard sell. :P
Glad we could convince you! The reason I contrasted Shadowborn with BT is just because we recently got BT basekit, which is a much bigger buff to survivors than basekit Shadowborn would be to killers. I was confused at the people who supported BT basekit but not Shadowborn basekit. It seems like a more than fair trade to me.
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248100#Comment_3248100
Wasn't having a better view a problem with stretched res?
It was on the survivor end because of the increased vertical FOV, which let you reveal Ghostface from behind cover, see killers over walls you wouldn't normally be able to, etc. I'm talking specifically an option to increase horizontal FOV as killer, which doesn't let you see around things you can't normally see around like it does for survivor. Unless you crank it to something ridiculous like 270 degrees, which I'm pretty sure DBD's engine wouldn't even allow. I'd be fine capping it at 105 or something.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248125#Comment_3248125
It is also the way the game is intended to be played.
I mean, sure, but isn't it healthy for the game to give feedback where feedback is needed? Maybe BHVR does intend the game to be played at 87 FOV, but does that automatically mean playing at 87 FOV is the best situation for everyone? As someone who suffers from motion sickness, I would love the option to increase my FOV so I can run 4 perks and not feel nauseous on some killers.
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@WesCravenFan said:
You don't want an FOV slider, you want an FOV buff. Because we all know you would crank that as high as it would go.
I specified an FOV slider rather than an FOV buff because some people prefer a lower FOV. If they just added a toggle between 87 (current default) and 102 (current Shadowborn), I'd take that in a heartbeat. I usually play around 100 FOV in most games if possible.
So yeah, I would crank it as high as I could go, but I still want there to be an option for people who prefer low FOV. ^_^
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248091#Comment_3248091
I'd see it as a good change if it wasn't a tragic nerf to stealth. Whatever max FOV they let you set would be, for all intents and purposes, the default FOV, because people want to see more.
And since the game was designed with this limited awareness in mind, it'd make those situations where you just barely slip by the killer much, much harder, since they can see more and not have to make as wild sweeping checks that might make them miss a detail. It's good for accessibility, but it's also a subtle and more significant than you might think buff. Like Stretched Res.
If survivors got, like.. faster crouch speed, I'd be cool with it.
I've heard this before, and you might be surprised to learn it's actually both a buff and a nerf to stealth. Sure killers have more degrees to spot you with their peripherals, but having a higher FOV means your eyes have to process more information, which means you tend to focus on movement. Which means if a survivor is crouching without moving, you're less likely to see them with a higher FOV.
And I think I've already acknowledged it is a buff; my point isn't that it's not one, but that it's a very worthwhile one for accessibility purposes. I wouldn't particularly mind a crouch speed buff if you believe that'd be necessary to counterbalance Shadowborn, but I am also of the opinion that DBD is more fun as an action-oriented chase game than a stealth game, so... your mileage may vary. I'd take that trade though.
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248064#Comment_3248064
As someone with an opinion on this matter beyond survivors being smelly doodooheads, I wouldn't really care about an FOV slider.
The reason I imagine people would is that FOV is intentionally low for the same reason chase music can't be altered: a limiting effect on gameplay. It's harder to hear eachother during chases, and it's harder to see people sneaking around you with low FOV. Seeing more things around you is a pretty nice gameplay bonus, hence, perk.
A closer comparison to an FOV slider than BT basekit would be stretched res.. which was patched out.
That's not necessarily how I see it, but it's an argument.
I do get that to some extent, but let's think about it for a second - let's say an FOV slider would be a gameplay advantage worth thinking about. Wasn't that also true, more true, of BT? If that's the case, then wouldn't an FOV slider still be a good change, even if it technically would be a killer buff?
That's kinda what I don't understand. Even if you think anything providing a gameplay advantage should be a perk, what about the perks like Brutal Strength and BT they've made base that have proven to be good changes?
I can understand considering FOV a significant gameplay advantage to some extent, even if I personally disagree - I just don't see how it invalidates the genuine accessibility issues that are caused by it being locked to a perk slot.
Out of curiosity, how do you see it?
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@Veinslay said:
Because survivors love FOV teching and 360ing which completely screw over console killers while doing nothing to PC players. When the devs got rid of 360s with the animation changes, survivors threw a hissy fit that they quickly changed it back. Devs won't repeat the same mistake and add an FOV slider for killer!
I don't even think it's a case of whiny survivor mains. I think a lot of people just don't have much of a reason to think about it, since most people don't suffer from motion sickness. Which I don't blame them for, but it feels kinda bad when we motion sickness sufferers bring it up and largely get ignored or told to just deal with it.