cburton311
cburton311
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the mmr will never work as long as it is looked as a 1v1v1v1v1 game. How can that ever be balanced? they need to drop that delusion and treat survivor as a team with scoring and MMR.
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@NordSahne said:
So, now after almost 5 days of nerfed SB, how are we feeling? I never really used it often when playing survivor, but I do notice that the survivors barely make any distance now playing as killer, it is still really good for pre leaving, but I do notice a big difference, thoughts?
I think prerunning earlier means the perk is 30% less effecting than it was. If you use it like a pocket dead hard the time duration reduction barely matters. And I can do it 4 or 5 times a match depending on healing available.
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@T1MEXII said:
I know as a solo survivor it must be annoying and seem unbalanced and unfair but you have to understand what is possible as survivor. Everyone knows solo survivor is the hardest role, especially with bad randoms. We have all been there.
If you choose to play in a swf (Survive With Friends) then at first glance it might not seem like a problem, sounds em fun and probably is to you. Being on a mic and doing silly things looks fun, I have also watched hours of dbd content and I really enjoy the stupid stuff you can do.
Sadly that is only one side, the other is using perks to bully the killer. Even that is not the worst part, bully squads don't sometimes complete the generators so in a tiny way it could be beneficial.
The fowl perks and items that survivors can use to generally make this game unplayable is why swf are hated among the killer community. Using strong toolboxes to make it impossible for killer to hook, especially when the killer deserves the hook from playing well. Using perks like Power Struggle to make it impossible for killers to pick up from a pallet. These are the survivors that killers go against and is the reason why killers do not take any chances.
Dbd might seem like a party game for survivors and it probably is with all the fun stuff you can do, sadly it is not the same for killer. One game a chill team and the next is a fully meta (Powerful perks) swf. Killers simply can't take a chance, until 2v8 killers have not had anyone to play with so it always been playing to win because who doesn't want to see how far they could go.
One more thing to consider before hating the way killers play, in a 4 man swf it is basically 16 perks vs 4 perks. I'm not going to complain but it can seem a little unfair so killers need to do all they can to win.
I know it is unfair, as a solo survivor player I have been tunneled out by a killer at 5 gens. It is miserable and you'll complain but go against one of those squads I mentioned and you see the difference.
This is such a bad take, it must be a troll. For survivors its a party game, so don't blame the killer for the way they play that murders fun. I want the killers to play well, I want them to have success for playing well. Getting tunneled off hook or slugged, or proximity camped until dead, just isn't fun. I don't care if they are strategically sound.
While these strategies exist the meta perks will always be second chance perks. Who care about the other 120 perks, they are irrelevant if they don't help you survive the killers behavior, note I did not say strategy. These behaviors feel like the same disfunctional crap that lead people to spawn camp in first person shooters. Its sadistic players not excellent players that use these strats.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
Killer queues times are higher than I can ever remember in the years I’ve been playing this game. 2v8 queue times have always been long for killers, but in this most recent version I’ve been consistently seeing times between 30-40 minutes, way higher than ever before. 1v4 mode killer queue times are also much longer than I’ve ever seen them.
In my personal experience, the killer side doesn’t feel overly easy. I regularly get matched against good survivors who know how to loop and coordinate and most of my matches require a lot of skill and effort to have a decent chance of winning.
On the survivor side, my most frustrating matches aren’t due to killers being overly strong, but regularly getting matched with teammates who are just bad at the game. The average teammate often gets downed very quickly and doesn’t have good game sense to know what to do in certain situations. When I have competent teammates, the matches are almost always enjoyable even if we lose. But it has been this way for me for a long time and that is not something that is new that would explain the increased queue time imbalance.
The overall killer vs survivor balance seems to be in a good spot based on my experience playing both sides, so I don’t know how to explain what’s going on. Has anything fundamentally changed with game balance recently that is making the game less fun and competitive for survivor players? Is it still because of Jason bringing a lot more people than usual to the killer side? Something else entirely?
I’m hoping to get thoughts on what is causing this from people who play both sides regularly and not the divisive “it’s because BHVR hates survivor players” type of comments that aren’t helpful.
I think it might be that the killer role is pretty oppressive for new players. Coupled with some downright unfun tactics (slugging and camping), it isn't surprising that newer players would leave quite quickly. This selection process leaves fewer survivors in general and has the effect of raising the average skill level of those that remain. This is a self reinforcing process, since killers want ever more buffs to deal with the skillful survivors. This makes the new experience even worse for unskilled survivors, so they leave….and on and on it goes.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099040#Comment_4099040
Many do because they want to use ds on killer who isnt tunneling them etc.
There are survivors doing this some even bodyblock hooks even when its clear it will be just trade but they exist.
The biggest number of bodyblocks I personaly have to deal with is when I go after the saviour and uhooked guy just goes “nah” and bodyblocks then is frustrated when I go sometimes for them because its pointless to go for first target when his endurence run out and healthy none hooked survivor is in safe location so fast down with risk of DS then healthy unhooked survivor in safe location. In some cases survivors do stupid decisions and wonder why killer is so mean when they ask for tunnel bx bodyblocking heslthy durvivor who isnt death on hook.
I think you misunderstand, if the killer hooks someone and then goes to search the gens for the next chase. There is no killer at the hook, so no body blocking can possibly happen. If the killer goes back to the hook for the easy hit, the game should make this harder to get value for the killer. There is currently too much value in tunnelling out a player. If someone is dead before the 3rd generator is complete, its like a 90% of killer victory. It is WAY to effective that is why killers tunnel someone out.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098724#Comment_4098724
Yeah but what you wrote as exsample can be very easily abused which is what even nowdays people off the hook do they go for bodyblock (sometimes totaly not needed one) or go use their ds if killer doesnt tunnel which is another problem.
WHo would you body block if the killer wasn't returning to the hook trying to kill the unhooked?
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No. We have seen the result of this, which isn't less tunnelling at all.
Tunnelling is too efficient, that is why killers tunnel. We need to make tunneling not efficient, and then buff killers to achieve the desired escape/kill rate.
For example, if you made survivors gain a 30 second speed boost to 6/ms and the killer became stunned for 10 seconds if they hit someone just off the hook. Killers would never tunnel. SO we can fix it immediately, it would just be terrible for the fun of the game. Survivors would feel to safe, and killers would feel to impotent. But it does demonstrate that tunnelling could be fixed, the other side of the equation is how do killers still find success at the same rates (weak and strong killers alike)
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I guess I don't really care what strength BHVR picks for killers, but if they could be balanced with each other than survivors could be balanced against that to get the desired overall balance (which I think should be 50 / 50 win rate, not 60 40)
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068943#Comment_4068943
not denying that the players feel there's issues with a character at all - Dissolution aside, which could very well be a perk issue and not a killer specific issue, hard to tell without looking at that closer, there's definitely some things which I think could be looked at more with Ghoul, but it's not something we're moving on right now. (I'm not saying never here, just explaining why it's not being done now).
its this mentality that has me at nearly 4k hours, not really play much anymore. I hate most of the new killers for their first 6 months of existance. It is clear, they hope to sell more ghoul so wont nerf him
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4070301#Comment_4070301
I ran it with Deja Vu and the only matches I won with it were those where the killers got barely any hooks and we would have won anyway. The FT was incidental and basically a wasted slot.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4070303#Comment_4070303
It took how long for Blight? 6 years? So we have 5 more years for Ghoul. Be patient.
But a whisper of a perk not being useless for survivors…nerf it to the ground
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The game would die as queues explode. Survivors would stomp on remaining killers. since all the killer mains left it's safe to assume the average killer skill level would go down. Survivors would migrate to other games or play more killer to avoid the now preposterous queues. Quality of the games would scare off new players, and the game would become financially untenanle. RIp
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@Chrarcq said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033863#Comment_4033863
Kills and escapes are a fine measuring stick
BHVR managed to realize how asinine of a measure this was but you somehow can't? Grim.
MMR worked really well when the limits were tightened up. Matchmaking time suffered is all. They've opened the limits so wide now, MMR is kind of irrelevant. I wouldn't draw to many conclusions from the method based on its current performance.
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@Fuzzels said:
Curious what people would like to see with MMR changes.
Personally, I'd love to see it shift more towards being team based, and not so much each individual survivor. If one person is tunneled out but the other 3 get the gens done and escape, the game should absolutely recognize that as a win for survivors and an increase in MMR for all FOUR of them, not just the escapees.
Afterall, it's a 1v4. Not a 1v1v1v1v1.
Also, we need a solid ruling as for what is a win, what is a tie, and what is a loss for each side. I get it, some people think "oh ho ho, I got 3 flash bangs so I don't care that the survivors died, I won" or "ooh yeah I killed the one survivor who was tbagging me and BMing, so I don't care that the other 3 escaped, I won" and that's fine. But the game as a whole needs a genuine decision MMR wise, who won and who lost.
This is what I want for MMR improvements
- MMR is a visible stat after the match. Each players MMR is visible only to themselves.
- MMR is awarded or lost based solely on the team that won not on individual survivors.
- Most MMR awarded to survivor team would be 5 gens completed with 0 hooks to the least MMR awarded to the survivor team at 0 Gens completed all survivors dead. With a hatch escape only counting less if other team members died.
- Awarded MMR would also scale based on the difference in strength between survivor side and killer side.
- Train an AI to estimate the outcome of a match based on player loadouts. If the AI forecasts the match to be too onesided, handicap the game slightly. I'm thinking if the killer is forecast to be 90% chance of victory, reduce generator 1 by 5 seconds, and the remaining generators by 3 seconds. Similaryly, add these times if killer is forecasted to lose. This would also reduce MMR lost or gained for the match. This would also be done to keep the queues moving with imperfect matchups.
- Use the distribution of MMR across killers and perks to SERIOUSLY rebalance the game. The AI match predictor might be useful here too.
- Try to group survivors and killers of similar MMR. Sort the queues and if no good matches exist just build the best survivor team against the best killer and apply handicap as described above (item 5)
- Tell everyone exactly what the method of match making is and the values used. 100% transparency. No one is served by bad data inferred or datamined.
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@まうっす said:
I understand that survivor players want to avoid uninstalling the game.
However, killer players must have their own reasons for uninstalling the game.
Does this mean that killer players aren't recognized as users?
If that's the case, wouldn't it be better to just make all killers bots?
I took it to mean, that the top 3 reasons for uninstalling were as listed. Every other reason was an insignificant portion of the uninstalls.
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In fact I don't :) The killer feels awful to face.
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@XDgamer018 said:
mostly because oh i dont know therre might be 4 survivors and a single killer??? keep in my 60% KILLrate means abt 2k/3k every other match. Wich means you should tie as much as you win
Which is better then 1e/2e, achieving a loss or tie every other match on average.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4001811#Comment_4001811
What happens the Devs take another approach than what was in the PTB? Would you be happy if they gave you the PTB version just to rip it from you hands next patch? Historically speaking, even if the replacement was better, that would cause more outrage than just taking the time to work on it some more.
Personally, I would be ok with any changes that move the game in a better direction. If that means, exhaustion perks have to go, or any other changes to balance the game, so be it.
I must acknowledge, that I might be alone in this sentiment. There would be many that would complain. This is where the devs have to do what's right for the game regardless of what any one person says.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
The update, sure, needs tweaks. But why not implement a version with reduced numbers that basically only have impact in specific cases?
6 hooks too many to block gens? Depends on the killer, but reduce it to 4 so that at least someone else needs to be hooked first.
25% being too much of a boost? Drop it to 10%. Barely will have an impact, but it will give survivors some hope of finishing 4 gens if someone dies early.
Anti-slug can be implemented as is, Twins needs a rework anyway. If it needs tweaks, then do so later. Undying was up for 5 months before it got tweaked. Ghoul has been in an annoying state for forever too. Killers can deal with 3 months of anti-slug potentially being a bit too punishing
Keep the basekit bbq and 5% permanent regression bonus per unique survivor hooked too.
THEN tweak the rest around it. Its a baseline that would just make games more than just singularity basically camping with biopods, or a trickster dropping chase because main event is ready and the basekit BT is just a minor obstacle.
But fully delaying it for another 3 months? No. Sorry, Done. I already waited over a year to finally hear an update about a viable basekit anti-slug and some tweaks to anti-tunnel. I've waited 6 months since the emergency abandon feature. If I need to wait for another 3 months, thats going to be 3 months playing something else.I agree they should implement something sooner rather then later and if that something under delivers then buff it in the future.
I disagree with all the buffs and nerfs and systems required for their proposal. It's all just too complex. I think it could be solved much easier. Survivors get 5% haste buff off the hook until someone else is hooked. On unhook there is no longer a notification for the killer.
After 90 seconds of slug time, survivors can lift themselves up from slug for the rest of the match.
That's it. Let's try that for a bit and see what new strategies emerge.
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I'm voting with my feet.
Just logged in for a solo queue match, got a ghoul. He hard tunneled out the first survivor found. Then the second. Then he slugged me for the 4k. The first unhook, I threw myself between the claudette and Ghoul and he would not chase me. Just went around me to get the the tunnel down.
I agree punishment for the behavior is the only option. Tunnelling needs to be deleted from the game. It is far too effective and simple. It nearly removes the hunt and chase parts of the killer game play. They just need to get that first hook. If that happens quickly the killer wins. It isn't fun for the tunneled or the other survivors now doomed to lose.
I'm not even sure why BHVR struggles so hard with this. Make decisive strike 5 seconds as it was for years. Give the unhooked a haste buff until someone else is hooked. Then put the antislug from PTB in. Maybe that wouldn't be perfect but it would be a good start.
Ever since patch 6.1, BHVR has systematically weakened every tool survivors have. This was done to shake up the meta. The problem was the meta was what it was to overcome the behavior of killers. It had little to do with the strategy of the game. Decisive, Unbreakable, Dead Hard were needed to last long enough against a killer that chose to tunnel. If the killer didn't tunnel or slug, those builds lost most of their utility.
It's like every problem the game currently faces stems from those choices. Survivors now don't take decisive, so they take a perk to speed gens or speed healing so they can get back to gens. Now gens feel faster then ever.
Until this situation is improved I'm out. Good luck.
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I suspect, its a combination of factors.
1) The game is horrible as a new survivor, so they quit. The game is horrible as a solo q survivor, so they quit or SWF up. The result is constant increasing average skill of the survivors that remain.
2) Many killers use highly effective but cheap mechanics to advance through the MMR probably faster than they would otherwise.
3) Power creep in recent killers makes all the old killers outclassed.
4) Everything a survivor could do has been nerfed, leaving the only real strategy to hammer down on generators.
This results in ever increasing match difficulty, especially acute with older killers.
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@CompetitifDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3997237#Comment_3997237
Its factual information that survivor is better, and its in the stats too for the most part. BHVR caters far too much to bad survivor players, and these changes would've been the mother load of unbalance. I have a 75%+ escape rate, thats not supposed to be happening according to BHVR's target killrate.
No it is not factual. The facts are that killers kill at rates above 60% and survivors escape at rates below 40%. In the tiny microcosm of the elite SWF vs non elite killer, the escape rate gets slightly closer to 50% on average. This has been true for every data dump behavior has ever done. Just because 0.000001% of survivors buck that trend doesn't mean game balance should be changed to fix that group.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3996443#Comment_3996443
The root cause of the problem is that people think “not having fun” is a valid reason for ragequitting.
I disagree, not having fun is the ONLY reason to not play a game. I'm not some minion that killers of the world can compel into entertaining them. To find the root cause, just keep asking why? Survivors are giving the answers BHVR just doesn't care.
I think if most survivors were to devise the solution to why they aren't having fun the game would quickly become unplayable for killers. BHVR should ignore that and just listen to the WHY people aren't having fun.
For me it is queuing for a game that might last 10 minutes and spending 5 minutes unable to actually participate. Hanging on a hoo, bleeding on the ground, mending simulator, whatever…these are activities that survivors tolerate to get to the good parts. The good parts are just getting fewer and fewer, and the dreadful parts are getting more and more. Hence Killer Q's are getting worse, and we have a go next pandemic, even after their go next solution.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995522#Comment_3995522
It’s more like “survivors are purposely breaking the game rules, and therefore should be punished”.
“Not having fun” isn’t a valid reason to ragequit.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995355#Comment_3995355
Killer mains aren’t a hive mind.
And this was the only person in the entire company that we knew was at Red Ranks. And people can say whatever they want about how easy it was to reach Red Ranks, but the fact was that every other BHVR streamer was hard stuck at like Purple Ranks or Green Ranks.
But the root cause is they aren't enjoying the game. The symptom is they are quitting. You can't solve a problem treating symptoms, you need to find the root cause and fix that.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3995125#Comment_3995125
We have a go next epidemic because this game refuses to buff the Go Next system to where it should be.
This is such a bad take. The survivors aren't enjoying the game, so let's punish them harder. Weird logic there but alright. You can have your sadistic approach, I'll just play something else. Let's see if that fixes killer queue times.
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@CrossTheSholf said:
"Disclaimer: after 6 fun years of working on DBD with an amazing team, I've moved on to another studio to work on something new. These opinions are mine, and not those of Behaviour Interactive.
First, it's extremely hard to set up an asymmetric game of any kind that works. From a game design perspective, you're not able to assume that any rule fair to one side is fair to the other. Worse, asym horror games tend to put multiple players against 1. There are a whole host of reasons this is difficult to get right, but that's a huge topic better left to another discussion.
With regard to games that set out to compete with DBD, they often start by saying "we're gonna fix X which is a deep problem with DBD". Why not learn from the competition, right? Well, sometimes it then turns out that X is something that makes DBD work.
I was a VHS (Video Horror Society) early adopter, and a Superfan (large DLC purchase); I'll use this one as an example. Much of the discussion of how this game works comes from my 110 hours spent with the game as well as discussions with my Twitch audience.
VHS failed in large part because the Monster couldn't tunnel or camp. It seems clear to me from the design that they looked at DBD and figured that the biggest thing its players hate is tunneling and camping, so they eliminated those tactics.
But that meant the Monster ended up fighting 4 Teens most of the match, and there was no way to deal with a particularly difficult Teen. You'd finally kill one, and then they'd get the book of the dead and you're at 4 again. It was miserable to play Monster, so few did. I am a DBD Killer main, and I even gave up playing Monster because it was so miserable to play. I'd rather wait in a 15-minute Teen queue and play something else in the meantime than deal with that.
The difficulty in killing one Teen early also made its 25-minute matches feel very samey the whole way. DBD matches have phases: 4 Survivors, 3 Survivors, do we try to finish gens or hatch jockey, hatch hunt. That results in large shifts in play style over the course of one match. There are issues with some of these stages, but that they are present adds variety to each match.
There was also the ping system, another response to something DBD is perceived to be lacking. It hurt the atmosphere and made it much more gamey. Also, it meant Teens had a much easier time learning to coordinate against the Monster.
Then there were the Journeys; these were sets of challenges for players to do to earn stuff. Nice in principle. But some of these encouraged VERY bad behavior on the part of the Teens. Imagine you're losing as Monster; the Teens have one more Sigil of the four to take to win. Instead, they keep chain stunning you with the other attack types in order to fulfill their Journey requirements. They're encouraged not to win, but to bully the Monster for their unlocks. We can't fault the players... they're just behaving in the ways that the systems encourage.
But part of this issue steams from another thing they wanted to fix from DBD: "We want more interaction between the Killer and Survivors, and we'd like to be able to hinder the Killer more than we can in DBD." One reason DBD works is that the Survivors try to do gens to open the gates, and the Killer tries to stop them. It's never about stopping the Killer, but delaying them until you can get the gates open and escape. In VHS the Teens want to kill the Monster and the Monster wants to kill the Teens. I would argue that the goal structure being set up like this means DBD can give the most important thing to the players: the sense of an unstoppable Killer. When I boot into a game as a Killer, I don't want to be afraid there might be a Survivor lurking around any corner with a weapon. I want to go in and watch them scatter like rabbits when I come near.
This brings up what's called "ludonarrative dissonance". When you see VHS or DBD advertised, you are being sold "80s movie monster runs around murdering civilians". What you get in DBD is largely that. In VHS, it's considerably harder to kill individual Teens, and so you're not getting what you were sold. You may have a difficult time actually completing kills in DBD as it's difficult to learn to play. But that's a totally different feeling than what you get in VHS where so many systems and rules are set up to make it systemically difficult to kill a Teen.
It's easy to give reasons like "DBD has the licenses", "it has more content", or "it's already established" as reasons for competitors' failures. Or that "they didn't market it right", or "their early access was not done well". VHS shipped with 3 monsters, 6 teens, and 3 maps. Over the course of their one-year early access, they released 2 new Monsters, 1 Teen, and 2 Maps. They tweaked a lot of things, and listened to player feedback. It was very impressive for such a small team.
But my experience as someone who was on the DBD team for 6 years and having played VHS and Evil Dead quite a lot is that these competitors just aren't as much fun.
Like it or not, despite its flaws, DBD is a brilliant game that's just fun to play and competitors have to beat that part to survive. Focusing on DBD's flaws and fixing those first is the wrong way to go about it.
I'm never happy when my fellow game developers slave away on a game for years (VHS was in the works for 5 years) and then fail and lose their jobs. They worked hard, they cared about their game, and it's clear they put everything they had into it. The studio behind VHS unfortunately appears to be gone now, and that's a shame."
The PTB is literally doing the thing…..
The problem is he's wrong.
Tunneling and Camping are tactics that make killer easier, and arguably fantasy fulfilling but they come at the direct expense of survivor fun. This is unstable and will end the game, eventually.
Similarly, the killer needs to have fun for the game to continue and thrive.
In my opinion Behavior has been approaching the fixes in the wrong way. The antiface camp doesn't even work as intended. The killer just has to wander away from hook for 10 or 15 seconds and wait for the unhooking survivors to show up and then go right back to the hook to face camp that player to death.
They created a compicated set of rules that didn't even solve the problem. The tension for killers that face camp is that gens might get finished while they ignore the other survivors. This should have been the approach to fix face camping: grant the survivors a 5% gen speed bonus while the killer is within 30 meters of the hook and not in chase. Less complicated and encourages survivors to do the thing that makes it less desirable for killers. The killers are free to play this way when it is warranted, they just have to way the consequences. Plus the buff becomes less important as the game enters EGC. IT feels natural. The current system shuts off at EGC, doesn't really prevent the scenario that survivors don't like, and therefore does nothing to improve survivor sentiment.
Additionally, I think they should abandon the idea that DBD is a game of 1v1v1v1v1. That way if your role on hook, leads to a nice BP reward and team win, it makes the camping scenario feel less bad. Less like a waste of the players time. This is the biggest crime in a game and I'm convinced is driving the wave of DC's. Why hang on hook when you could be starting a new game that might be fun?
I think the tunnelling and slugging solutions feel a bit the same way, overly complicated and punishing to each side in different ways that aren't intuitive. I applaud the effort, this just ain't it.
I am an unapologetic survivor main of medium skill. I don't want to spend minutes of the match watching the other players play while I dangle or bleed out. Maybe give me something to do while I'm up there…a minigame that helps me contribute.
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@XboxPlayur said:
So killer is getting severely punished for completing their objective? I get that being tunneled sucks, and I personally try to avoid it, but if the same survivor is playing poorly/annoyingly and constantly coming into contact with me, I shouldn’t have to pretend I don’t see them like I’m playing hide and seek with a 3 year old.i could understand adding the survivor buffs that help escape unhook scenarios, but adding the severe handicapping of a killer if they tunnel is just going to turn those defensive buffs into offensive weapons to use against the killer without fear of ramifications. I am supposed to hunt and hook survivors, why am I being told not to do my objective? When will they do the same for survivors? Having three gens pop as the first hook is happening is just as unfun as being tunneled but you can’t fault the survivors for working toward their objective. When do we get the update of free ruin if they pop 2 gens within a minute of each other? Why not automatically kick survivors off gens and prevent them from being worked on for 90 seconds when one gets completed? Just seems drastically tone deaf to say “your sole objective is to hook survivors, but don’t do it too well or I’m going to kneecap you so the survivors don’t have to learn how to play the game better”.
Remember it's a game. Games need to be fun and balanced for BOTH sides to have fun. As a survivor being found first and relentlessly tunneled out of the game, was zero fun for the entire survivor team. The person getting deleted didn't have fun, and if that death occurs at 4 or 5 gens the match is over.
If the proposed bonuses make these matches somewhat competitive, and less likely to occur then its probably worth trying. Something has to be done. There is a reason that killer queues are increasing. When I started survivor was arguably WILDLY overpowered, and their queues reflected that. It wasn't uncommon for a 15 minute queue at 8pm for survivor matches.
I'm not sure that even now, at elite play, that survivor still isn't the stronger side. I wouldn't know, I am not an elite player. My matches include a bunch of fools trying to have fun. This gets ruined by at least one DC or suicide to game exit. LIterally, 75% of my matches have a bot. The code is buggy, but not THAT buggy.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
So, if you have ever seen me around these forums, you know that I'm the biggest advocate for killer rights, and 9 times out of 10 I have criticism to how the devs have been handholding survivors all the time since Skull Merchant got her first rework. That being said, I actually think that the update the devs announced might actually be good for the game overall, but it will all depend on a single number
Hear me out. The main reason killers tunnel is to get rid of someone as quickly as possible. It is fundamental to do that because otherwise the generators just fly and you can't do anything about it, so with 1 survivor dead efficiency goes down by 25%. With that in mind, there is currently no incentive to hook multiple survivors, this update kinda fixes it by giving killers benefits and tools to juggle between targets.
The first one is BBQ and Chilli basekit, which should you help go for other people immediately after a hook. The second is the removal of collision for unhooked survivors, meaning they can't use their protection offensively. The third, and the most important one is the Pop Goes the Weasel effect, which I will get back to it later.
Sure, the survivor side also got a lot of buffs as well. The first one is the endurance + silent mode + haste. However, that doesn't sound as different from our Off the Record. The thing is, OTR is already a perk that you see ALL THE TIME, so in practice, all that means is that survivors essentially got an extra perk slot. Don't get me wrong, Off the Record is still busted when comparing to everything else, but having it now as killer is vs having it as basekit alongside other killer buffs + no bodyblock I do think that the latter takes the cake.
There is more though, as survivors got another buff. Now they receive a repair speed boost if a survivor dies before the 6th hook, and the killer can no longer regress generators or block them if a survivor dies regardless. The thing is that the meta now may be getting 8 hooks (two on each survivor) before killing them, since it allows you to the most Pop Goes the Weasel uses. And then when the first dies you use your base BBQ to rush and kill all the last survivors. Needless to say, this ideal scenario sounds more healthy for both sides than what we have now, where killers need to tunnel because gen speed is that crazy and gen defence perks have been essentially deleted, but they can't do so because tunnel defense perks are absolutely overtuned.
However, there is a small variable that will decide if this update is good or not, which is the basekit Pop Goes the Weasel regression value. If the regression is something like 30% of the total generator chargers, then we are looking into an excellent update and probably the end of tunneling for good. On the other side, if the value is 10% of current generator or something stupid, then the game will become more unplayable for killer than ever. I think that the minimum should be 20% of total generator charges to compensate for the other killer nerfs.
As it is now, I will wait and see the numbers that come with this update before making the final judgement, but for now, it looks like a really good update.
I think most of your post is reasonable. I disagree with the 30% that sounds problematic, but the thing is, neither of us know. All of the changes at once are going to require some testing and iterations to get to a result that makes the games feel good (or at least better) for both sides.
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thats a whole lot of killers that must have crutched on cheap mechanics.
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@Mandy said:
The most frustrating part about The Ghoul from survivor side, was his "kidnap tech", by removing that we feel that this will open the door for survivors to have counterplay to the killer, we've already seen this happening amongst survivors even with kidnap tech.
Just for the record, his ridiculous hit box, zooming across map to return to hook with basically no counterplay are why I hate the killer. THe kidnap tech didn't make the top 5 things about the ghoul that frustrated me
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oops double post
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@Abbzy said:
I think its just the go next prevention which made survivors unable to kill themself on the hook and this makes them to stay there int the macth and rush gens so the game ends fast, I have noticed that when I play killer thats not liked by most surivvors like ghoul or clown.
haha that's hilarious. I've seen so many dc's or sacrifices to get out of matches. It might be why the killer queues are so long, all the survivors are getting penalized.
Just finished a match where survivor got downed 20 seconds in (lethal pursuer), DC'd. Another survivor attempted to heal the bot from slog, and got downed. I believe on purpose, and then they DC'd. Then the killer DC'd. Entire match lasted 40 seconds maybe?
Go next prevention, pffft.
If BHVR wants to make people stop quitting matches: attach the character to a match until the match is done. If they "leave" they get to spectate until its done. If they restart the game, when they reenter, they need to return to spectate the game. If they quit the game and when they return the original match is over, then they have a DC penalty exactly equal to the duration of the match.
Then make the game feel less hopeless for the survivors. Abandon the idea that matches are 1v1v1v1v1. Surivors score based on TEAM performance, so first hook + camp doesn't mean 3 bloodpoint matches.
Maybe then survivors will stick around a little more.
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Make his hit boxes make sense, and increase the delay between slingshotting across the map and attacking or slow the speed of the slingshot. Start there
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toolbox, medkit, flashlight, toolbox addons, medkit addons, flashlight addons and 100% bloodpoint offering. THose are the only useful items, everything else is trash.
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@Bearded_Owl said:
Short and simple, guy is kinda annoying in 2v8, but my issue with him is the constant mending.
With killer powers adjusted to fit 2v8, couldn't Legion be changed so, if a healthy survivor is hit in frenzy, you just lose the health state, no mending required, if you're already injured and hit in frenzy, then you are put into deep wounds.
That's it, if this would be problematic, would be curious as to why, but feel it would ease some annoyance vs him.
you'd remain trackable to legion. Deep wounds masks you from killer instinct.
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@Nazzzak said:
Were you livestreaming? Maybe a stream sniper?
Its happened to me too, I am not a streamer. And the killer was not in my friends list on steam.
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Survivors will just vote with their feet. I will not play 2v8 until it is fun.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3985055#Comment_3985055
We may play different games, I know survivors are god awful on NA or Asia servers. Awful to the point you better never play alone at all.
But it still does nothing with soloq. MMR and awful survivors – reason of why soloq feels bad, not soloq itself. You can give AK-47 to these survivors and they will shot their legs with it.Isn't that sort of an MMR problem though? If bad killers and bad survivors were matched up would they have better games and presumably you would be in a higher MMR with better survivors and killers. SoloQ is a disaster because MMR is a disaster. Once people of similar skill are playing each other than the data from those matches would be relevant for balancing the game.
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I think the killers should be able to abandon once all living survivors have entered the exit gates. At this point the match is over. Exit gates powered the game isn't over, since a survivor may still have to cross the entire map. And survivors should get the escape bonus when this happens.
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Interesting declaration, if you are part of the 1% its toxic but somehow that means the whole community is toxic. I would suggest you use the in game tool: tune off chat. Toxic chat can longer touch you.
They will never ban people for chat that doesn't cross any social lines. Stay away from identity, race, religion, and they shouldn't ban. A lot of people enjoy the trash talking aspect. I don't personally, so I don't read the comments. Its up to me whether I allow them to offend me or not. It should definitely not be policed by behavior.
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Yes, my match times are instant but teammates and killers are wildly different skills than me. I'm very mid, but I get matched with 3 hours newbs or 10000 hour maniacs.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984330#Comment_3984330
That their lose, so I don’t care that much.
Funny how as soon as I messaged this that’s made few people upset and urged to downvote, but as soon as situation opposite and they happily click click on gates “u have to push them off to the gate, that’s not problematic”
While they can keep few sec of Mori and dc monetary they can’t hold L.
The difference is the situations a survivor can abandon are situations where killers held them hostage. They couldn't move on until the killer LET them or a very long timer elapsed. You pushing someone out an exit gate is also completely in the killers control. Survivors can't hold the game hostage, the best they can do is choose not to leave IF the killer chooses not to push out.
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@PigWithTvs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3984306#Comment_3984306
but its fine if survivors stay in the gate until the timer, its fine for me to sit there waiting for them to leave, game is not over by then right?
im sure i can pull a blood warden by praying to the entity or something….
you end the match anytime you want, just push them out the exit
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no.
gamers over move on
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Hex totems also need to be considered for their time penalties incurred on survivors. Even if it is easy to see, it still takes time to cleanse it. Undying doubles the time investment. From a survivor perspective, if I see a team mate cleansing a totem and it's NOT a hex, I feel like the 20 seconds lost might cost the game. It can't be both an game ending blunder and barely viable just because it is either a dull totem or hex totem when it was cleansed.
Does it feel bad when devour gets cleansed straight away, sure. But when that was going to be part of my strategy, i spend a little time defending that totem. And when its cleansed anyway, generally after the first instadown. It still provided a bunch of help before it was cleansed.
That being said, I think the preferable design fix would be to WEAKEN the hex affect, but provide a sort of consolation prize for after its gone. Take ruin, decent hex affect maybe the hex affect doesn't even need to be weaker to give it a 5% global genny slowdown once cleansed. IN this way the matches wouldn't so "swingy" based on a good totem spawn vs bad.
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I feel like there are 10 or so perks for survivor that do anything to alter the outcome of a match.
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RIP
It's sad to see another survivor option dumpstered. It was fun trying to save teammates or use it as a tool to block suspected aura reading. It gave survivor some other strategy to try. The game needs more of these types of things!
Sitting on a gen, hanging on a hook, lying on the ground, even healing other people is large amounts of time with survivor doing nothing. Its actually kind of boring gameplay.
Chase is the only survivor activity, and EVERY killer has tools to make that as short as possible.
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@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3979187#Comment_3979187
But, it’s in their core power… they meant to down u from far away distance lol, because that’s the only advantage they have…. They have to play as m1 just because u healed teammate?
Or it’s a hint to play ghoul with hard tunnelling?
Or I dunno, run to the downed player, see them pop up and then down them again.
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@Deadman7600 said:
I don't say this to invalidate what you're feeling, but maybe hold off on the uninstall. Fog vials are very new, they were never not gonna be tossed around and messed with like this because BHVR needs to see how they work best.
I still forsee fog-vials having good things in their future. And hopefully the limit isn't low like 1 or 2 but is something like 4 or 5. Also remember that the next chapter is an original chapter and it'd be a shame if there were no perks surrounding this item since there are so many concepts and ideas they could provide.
edit: adding this to illustrate my first point
unfortunately no one is using them now, so either the perception of the nerf is too great and killed the item OR double nerfing it was actually too much, aaannd no one will use them. Medkits and toolboxes will continue to be the best items to bring
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@TheGoone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3976162#Comment_3976162
It actually does greatly affect the balance of the game having permanent vault speed increased greatly effects the outcome of a hit or a miss on tiles. Which is why we don't have permanent vaults speeds perks for survivors.
And besides your stressing on Deathslinger but his problem is only available on one killer that not everyone has even bought big whoop it won't get fixed any faster with you wildly exaggerating about it
presumably its all projectile killers. And I was referencing the original post which called out specifically Deathslinger. Again I didn't say it didn't matter only that it didnt break the game.