Jallybwan
Jallybwan
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Yaaaaay
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@AGM said:
I mean, that's definitely more fair, but I don't want it nerfed from disgustingly OP to just OP. I want balanced. If the Blight hits you in 2 or 3 tokens, that means that he can still instantly rush at you again. That still sounds problematic to me, especially if paired with Adrenaline Vial.
I think it'd be balanced. Hitting survivors in only 2 or 3 rushes is much easier said than done if they're paying attention, and I think it's fair to want a solid reward for pulling that off. Adren Vial might be an issue with how fast tokens recharge, but I think that's something we'd need to see in order to get a solid grasp on how powerful it'd be.
These are good points, but I think it'd more depend on the map than anything else.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I think that's a really good idea because it fits with the description. "A reminder of unrestrained ambition". The add-on would allow blight to rush with less tokens, like he is ambitious.
I didn't think of that actually! That's genius, spot on lore connection mate lmao
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For sure.
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@thefallenloser said:
I’m not sure about survivors getting an FOV slider, but for killers, yes! The low FOV is eye grating and makes me sick after about 10 mins, and I don’t think Shadowborn is a viable solution.
That's fair. I brought up an FOV slider for survivors because some people (supposedly) used stretched res because the camera felt too close to their survivor, and the issues it caused are theoretically fixable. The main thing for me is the killer FOV slider, since they're the ones with a first person camera.
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@katoptris said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2915758#Comment_2915758
Same I be happy to see Dwight as a goalie. I feel like David would get a jersey out of everyone.
You say this like David wouldn't show up to the game shirtless anyway
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Would Haemorrhage reduce your heal charges while Solidarity is still building them up, or would it only take effect after you stop healing the other survivor?
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@MissBehavingX said:
All those people that deadharded into a wall beg to differ lol
All these DH threads is making want to actually give it a try it, cause i have never done, ever, in all these years.
I ran Dead Hard up until recently, actually. It certainly made my survivor games a lot more fun. If you play DBD casually and you're not super interested in becoming a top 0.0001% survivor, it's an easy way to extend chases. More chase time = more fun.
It definitely carried my meghead ass though.
Edit: Because this is the DBD community and bringing meta ######### incenses people for some reason, I should clarify the point of this thread. I'm not here to throw shade at people who use Dead Hard. It's an incredibly strong perk, no ######### you want to run it. I ran it for a while. Getting pissy with people over the builds they bring is pointless. My problem is with the perk itself, not the people running it.
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@Sluzzy said:
Dead Hard is only a problem for bad killers. I certainly don't see it literally winning games like the killer meta.
The fact is it is the only skillfull exhaustion perk needing precision of use to make it work, if it even works at all. Equipping the perk doesn't automatically give the survivor a win, hence it is not even overpowered.
It is meta because most survivor perks are garbage.
Dead Hard is only a problem for bad killers. I certainly don't see it literally winning games like the killer meta.
Can I get your survivors, then? I've lost games to a singular E that robbed me of a game-winning down I could've snowballed off of.
The fact is it is the only skillfull exhaustion perk needing precision of use to make it work, if it even works at all. Equipping the perk doesn't automatically give the survivor a win, hence it is not even overpowered.
This "dead hard doesn't work" rhetoric has always confused me. If it "doesn't work", why is it that every survivor and their mother uses it every game?
It is meta because most survivor perks are garbage.
- Adrenaline
- Balanced Landing
- Bond (solo queue)
- Circle of Healing
- Dark Theory
- Exponential
- Borrowed Time
- Botany Knowledge (with healing build)
- Built to Last
- Dead Hard
- Decisive Strike
- Deliverance
- Iron Will
- Kindred (solo queue)
- Lithe
- Lucky Break
- Open-Handed (SWF)
- Overcome
- Prove Thyself
- Resilience
- Soul Guard
- Spine Chill
- Sprint Burst
- Unbreakable
- Vigil
- We're Gonna Live Forever
- Windows of Opportunity
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@DBDVulture said:
There is no need to delete Dead Hard. Imagine for example if we added a 5 second action interrupt when you use the perk (note: the doctor's shock is a 2.5 second action interrupt).
This would mean you can use DH to avoid an attack but can't use it to make a vault so you can loop back around to a pallet. And then if you stunned the killer you cant run to a new tile and vault, and run around the loop 2-3 times before potentially doing that again.
The problem is that DH creates the opportunity to make a mistake as a survivor and then make that mistake not matter. You can chain tile elements together when the chase should have been over 30-60 seconds ago.
Yeah, I've seen that idea floating around for a while now. It'd certainly be nice to see how it goes.
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@RaSavage42 said:
Honestly it comes down to the distance or I frames... With the side effect of the Killer going through the Hit cooldown
If players say distance the shorten the distance
If players say I Frames then shorten that aspect
I honestly think it's both or either depending on the killer. W+M1 killers definitely suffer the distance more, killers like Huntress suffer the i-frames more.
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@some_guy1 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2857680#Comment_2857680
it's caused by getting stunned while crouched, you can see it on zubat's video here: https://youtu.be/8C6HclKylMs?t=160
My question is... how? They didn't touch Pig OR pallets in this update.
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I'm pretty sure that's what causes it, yeah. I also noticed that getting stunned while crouched doesn't uncrouch you like it's supposed to, so maybe the server thinks you're uncrouched, but when you actually uncrouch on your side, the server interprets it as you crouching again. Somehow.
I have no ######### clue how the animation is bugged but the speed and ability to M1 aren't, but then again, this game has more spaghetti than an Italian family reunion.
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All fair compromises. Perk just needs to be more accessible.
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Even just the first part of the video with all the basic fundamental changes, up until about 9:50. Just having that would make DBD so much better. The work is all laid out for BHVR in this video. All they have to do is just follow along and implement the changes like this. Imagine how many people in this community would cry tears of joy if this patch was made a reality.
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I'd remove dead harding for distance. There's counterplay to dead hard if it's used to avoid a hit, but when using it for distance, it's basically just a third health state. In exchange, maybe provide some better incentive to good timing, like a stun if you manage to perfectly deflect a basic attack. You just turn around and punch the killer in the face.
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@YukariTheAlpaca said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2319142#Comment_2319142
Flying higher would allow you to get better vision on survivors, as for flying at a lower altitude, it could be strong to do so depending on the situation. The Consumer can only move forward in flight and with since not all obstacles have the same heights, it may make it more difficult to move around in chases without getting caught on things while flying. I feel it would be preferable to stay at a decently high height until you are close enough to make a potential attack, especially since you can use your higher altitude during flight to cut off survivors while they are pathing away from you.
The counterplay to him is trying to out-move him in tight spaces, since he has a drift, it makes controlling him while closer to the ground much more difficult. The flight attack, though powerful in the right hands, can still be dodged similar to a Demo lunge, but without the ability to always aim the attack properly due to always moving forward as the Consumer during flight. It requires quick thinking. The difference between him and Demo is that Demo can properly aim his ability at any time where Consumer cannot due to always being on the move while at the same time being on a time limit where the power duration may end before a good angle can be made.
Ah, gotcha. That sounds great, then. Hope more people see this.
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@YukariTheAlpaca said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2316991#Comment_2316991
He has full pitch control.
Ah, fair enough. But that begs the question: What's the point in flying any higher than, like, waist-height? Wouldn't that just make him a Demo with less counterplay?
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@YukariTheAlpaca said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2316432#Comment_2316432
Indoor maps would definitely be difficult for him but if you get good enough with flying you could probably still be deadly.
Would he just bonk into the roof? Would he be able to dip in height a little to make it through the doorways on Lery's?
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It's like a cross between Demogorgon and Nurse - might be interactive, might be bullshit. I think this is probably the most balanced flying killer idea I've seen. How would it work on indoor maps?
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Also, Mandy moved this to feedback and suggestions for some reason. The thread is about discussing a video showcasing why Billy shouldn't have been nerfed.
Although it's not exactly a wonder why a lot of people would put feedback in the discussions category. Lord knows BHVR doesn't check the feedback category.
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@yeet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2280863#Comment_2280863
blight
additionally, a punishment for being bad at one of already the most difficult killers is antithetical to DbD's casual balancing, you can't balance survivors for the casuals while balancing killer powers for MLG 5000 hour billy players, that's having your cake and eating it too
Yeah, exactly. It's actually possible to have a pretty well-balanced killer while still having them be mostly fun to play as and against. Old Billy was a great example of that until BHVR nerfed him.
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@NoOneKnowsNova said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2283057#Comment_2283057
Everything you say there about the overheat is understandable and for the most part I agree with (especially that a similar mechanic just to punish camping but not to punish people trying to learn him). Additionally, like you said, he is a much harder killer to learn now due to the limited use of his power.
It's a shame with how much they changed him, especially that he basically has no good add ons now. Regarding if they listen to us or not, I'm not sure. There's a thread regarding optimisation that has over 1.5k comments yet no news on that from any Developer or Community manager, which to me says enough.
All in all I do still find Billy fun, but he must be a pain in the ass to get into with what ######### they've done to him, especially that you can put less effort in to learning a better killer. They did go overboard on many aspects but I doubt they'll revert them any time soon :/
Oh yeah, the devs are horrible at listening to their community. That's just a known fact at this point. It's probably the number one issue with BHVR's balancing - they keep trying to pretend like they're good at it and don't need help, when they aren't. If Almo of all people is "half the balance team" like he says, that explains a lot. The guy doesn't understand the game at all, which is why he keeps pulling stats to try and prove something in a game that cannot be quantified accurately with stats. But then he responds with snark and dismissal when anyone calls him out on it.
If the balance team actually listened, we wouldn't have had Overheat. We wouldn't have had the map reworks making everything worse. We wouldn't have them trying to shove MMR down our throats.
They need to start now.
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@NoOneKnowsNova said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2281624#Comment_2281624
To avoid making you talk about things you already have, I'll talk about whispers.
I brought it up as it's a perk that I find incredibly strong on him, similar to STBFL on Demo or Stridor on Spirit. Maybe you can say that perks shouldnt be in the conversation, but if we're being realistic then most killers will have perks at their disposal, especially one that isnt a teachable.
Due to his power needing to cooldown, the addition of whispers allows it to be used more efficiently as he can know when traversing the map if he needs to continue on and ignore the area or if he should stay. Additionally, while using his chainsaw he goes at 9.2 m/s (iirc) so survivors dont always have a ton of time to react.
Yes whispers isnt completely accurate, but from my experience it saves more time than it loses as if you know the general distance of 32m then you can search and get into a chase quickly, and helps Billy what he does best. Create a ######### ton of pressure as he can roam around the map quickly and allows you to not overuse your chainsaw to the extent that it overheats.
Combine this with Ruin, and to me you've got the best map pressure in the game.
You're entitled to your own opinion however and if you believe that Billy shouldn't have been nerfed then that's fine. I think there are certain parts where they did go too far (Such as his add ons mostly being useless) but his overheat is one of the few things that they did right in my opinion.
Thanks for the consideration, I appreciate it a lot.
I agree, we should always consider perks and maybe up to yellow or green addons when discussing how to balance a killer. And you make a very good point with Whispers; I can see your logic and how it would be an amazing perk on him, especially with Overheat as a mechanic.
However, I think we're both focused on different aspects of his power. I'm more concerned with encouraging Billies to keep trying their hand at flicking, over and over, incentivizing them to practice and get better. You're more focused on the 1v4 aspect of DBD, creating pressure across the board rather than individual chase potential. With DBD, both are important, but Overheat forces you to pick one and ignore the other. If you use his saw for mobility, you won't have much heat left for the chase. If you save the heat for the chase, you lose your mobility. Not to mention, Overheat makes it so that you have limited practice - but with Billy's saw being among the most interactive powers in the game, I think we should let Billies curve more, not less.
As to whether or not I think Billy should've been nerfed, you're right, I think the nerf was absolutely unnecessary. I would have agreed with an Overheat solely to punish camping; i.e. it builds up while revving but goes away when you dash, to punish Billies who facecamp with their saw out. That would've been totally fine by me and probably the rest of the community. I also would've been fine with BHVR nerfing his charge time addons, Tuning Guide, etc. They went way overboard with what they did to him, though, and completely ignored the outcry from the community (because let's face it, most of us loved old Billy and we're sad that nobody plays him anymore).
Basically, BHVR pulled an "if it ain't broke, break it" and ignored the ######### out of the community when we told them not to go through with it. Not only was it a horrible decision balance-wise, it came across as a huge middle finger, as if to say they don't value our input when it comes to the game. I can't speak for them to say whether or not they do value our input, but it certainly doesn't feel like they do when they pull stuff like this.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2281599#Comment_2281599
Those sounds like fine changes to me. If you're gonna make his power stronger again, make him use it to get hit at least. See how it goes adjust from there if needed. Give him some better add-ons, not stuff like Black Grease.
So everything after this will mainly be about trying to wrap up the side points that were brought up since we came to a middle ground understanding on the main topic, somehow, on the internet, let alone the forums lol. So thank you as well for having a civil discussion, that only work if both sides participate.
As for the Nurse/power level point, its not about being uncounterable to the highest level of play. In fact I don't like balancing for the highest level of play at all since that's a very small fraction of the playerbase, so I believe there we just don't agree on what skill level the game should be centered around which is fine. I think games should be balanced around where players are good/great, but not depip squad/god nurse good as I feel that would be the best ground for most of the playerbase to be be the best state overall. So your assessment of me wanting killers around Huntress tier, or a little stronger honestly, is pretty much spot on.
Right now I feel like the game is balanced around potato survivors (no offense to those players) but good killers. Not good killers and good survivors. However I don't want top tier balance either as that just makes the game unfun for everyone whose not in the 1-5%.
However, I do understand your point of effectiveness scaling with skill and investment in and can understand how that can be frustrating to deal with, especially since that most of the current killer roster.
Yeah I agree camping is more of a fun issue and pushing killers not to is something I'm on board with.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2281611#Comment_2281611
Yeah I agree Blight and Oni kinda stomp all over his territory, but killer powers being too similar is also an issue there. Like we got Billy, and we got Yokai Billy (Oni), but only temporarily sometimes if he hits you. Oversimplifying but I think you'll get the idea.
It's not about a killer using their power a lot that I'm against necessarily, it just depends on the power. Like I think Pyramid Head should be using his power more in general and not just doing the "you're animation locked" tactic all the time but its just not viable to do so most of the time because of multiple factors that aren't the point of this thread. So I can actually relate to the feeling. Its just getting it to a point where using it a lot isn't going overboard. There needs to be decent downtime in between, especially with a 1-hit down with crazy mobility. Like we don't want Legion/Ghostface levels of cooldown, those are way too much, but I also don't want "haha one-shot pallet breaker that can hit around corners and cross the map go Brrrr" back.
But again, your changes lined previously sound fine, the increased charge time would help in that regard. I really though he was just a little overboard before, so pulling him back a bit compared to before with different changes would be ideal in my opinion.
I can understand not playing a killer due to "feel", so if we can get him feeling better that sounds like a win in my book.
As for the final line, maybe at the highest yeah he was fine, but that's not what I aim for or look to for balancing. Again I think there we just disagree on where the game should be balanced around. I just think baseline the chainsaw did just a bit too much for how much he was using it in a game with just decent - good players. Like it scaled well into top tier play, but any lower than that is where things got funky. At least in my experience.
I can understand the Hillbilly plight a bit more now I think. Again, thank you as well for keeping things respectful and carrying out a civil discussion. 🙂
Of course, I'm really glad we could come to some agreement! I'll be honest; I've been up for way too long and I don't have the mental capacity to respond to all of that, so I'll just pick out things I think I can formulate a response to.
Yeah, I agree we shouldn't balance around top tier players - DBD's comp scene is a bit of a joke, and very few people I know want to sweat their balls off every game. Especially with the sheer range of power levels across the killers - Clown and Nurse being on totally opposite ends of the spectrum really doesn't help Clown mains if everyone's playing to win. So in a sense, I would agree with killers being balanced somewhere between Huntress and old Billy.
I think the main thing for me when changing a killer power is "How do we reward players for being skilled without leaving zero counterplay for skill on the other side?" With Billy that takes the form of making Engravings basekit and making Overheat dissipate instantly when you start a dash. For PH (and Demo actually), I want them to have more drastic slow-downs when they cancel their powers, but buff those powers to incentivize people to actually use them. For example, range/speed buffs to Shred and Punishment (possibly a wider hitbox for the latter).
I feel like Billy's power has a bit more nuance to it than you've seen, which honestly I understand since most people who used to play Billy were of the instasaw-noed-bamboozle type. That's why the emphasis is put on speed (helps with flicks) and lowered charge time (nerfs backrevving). Blight and Oni's powers are much more versatile than Billy's saw simply by nature of being more easily maneuvered around corners and such, so I feel Billy's power doesn't need nearly as much of a cooldown, even if it's an instadown (since getting that instadown can prove very difficult in the first place).
Thanks once again for being reasonable! God bless. ^^
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@Miles said:
i agree. i started playing after the hillbilly rework, so no nostalgia bias or anything here.
Overheat was useless and only made me want to NOT play hillbilly. I would be counter intuitive to have such a fun ability that i wanted to get better at, but get punished by trying to do so.
it literally took me over 6 months to even think about playing hillbilly. And even then i prefeer using Oni or Wraith.
Yep! I'm actually a Wraith main too. I should probably change my profile pic; haven't played Pig in months and don't intend to until she actually has a power.
Edit: And this is what I'm talking about. I understand a few people find Billy unfun to play as or against, but the vast majority of people love him on either side. So it makes sense to encourage use of his ability. We should still listen to the people who don't like certain aspects of his power, and take their feelings into account, but if there's an unresolvable clash then it makes sense to appeal to the broader majority of people.
TL;DR - Everyone's idea of fun matters, but if there's an unresolvable conflict, we should go with the majority. And the majority agrees that we should bring back old Billy.
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@NoOneKnowsNova said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2281528#Comment_2281528
The overheat mechanic is what separated the good Hillbillys and the average Hillbillys. Imagine Hillbilly when Ruindying was meta. Even now he's extremely underrated because his power takes thought.
Not every killer should be able to spam their power. Some should be punished for over using their power. Blight gets punished by having to replenish all tokens for using his power. Huntress, Slinger, Trickster and Clown have to reload. Freddy and Hag only have a limited amount of their power before it starts being re used.
And that's just some of them. Killers do have some sort of punishment for spamming their power (Spirit being a notable exception). The only problem I have with him now is occasionally hitting off things that he shouldnt hit off. Otherwise from my experience he's a fun, mostly balanced killer that becomes weak if people overuse his chainsaw.
It's why, to me, Whispers is a necessity on him. But that's a free perk that's on every killer rather than one that needs huge grinding.
We've actually addressed all of this earlier in the thread, but in a nutshell:
- Focusing on only "good Hillbillies" completely ignores the fact that we want to encourage new Billies to use their chainsaw more often, so that they can become good Billies. Ultimately, Overheat did the opposite.
- "Spamming" his power is a moot point. You get punished for missing by a cooldown that lets survivors loop you for longer. That's how it should be; there was no need to add an arbitrary heat system like they did. Especially since BHVR themselves said that they were happy with how he was performing. Nobody thought he needed to be nerfed aside from a few addons.
- "Overusing" his chainsaw is just a sad concept, imho. How can you overuse a killer's power, the very thing that makes them unique? The very reason you play that killer specifically? Killer powers should be designed for as much use as possible. Otherwise we just get trapless Trapper gameplay.
Idk why you brought Whispers up. Please elaborate.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2281216#Comment_2281216
I still consider him pretty strong, I don't think he's weak or anything and you lined it out pretty well. A good Billy still preforms well, its just not as oppressive as before. He can't be all over everyone the entire match. He can't always be "on top of you no matter what" because he has to worry about his overheat. He can't sprint to an unhook, miss 2 chainsaws, land the 3rd, then sprint to a gen and miss 1 and get the 2nd, then sprint to where they downed the 1st person like before. I think that's a good change.
Also I don't know why you think I didn't like good players, good players are the thing we use to see how things preform, a good Billy before was too strong. A good Billy is pretty strong today, like you said.
With old Billy you had to miss a lot for it to really hinder your performance enough for it to really matter. One-shots save a ton of time, then he also saved a ton of time with map traversal. You had to miss enough to outweigh the one-shots and the mobility.
He just needs a little bump up (honestly I would improve his add-ons) and for people to get over the nerf and play him more. Its similar to what happened with Nurse, they took away triple blink and she vanished. They took away instasaw spam and people just dropped him.
Are these killers bad now? No. They just got a a little harder to play.
Billy is... okay. There's just really no reason to play him now that Oni and Blight exist.
I feel like you're coming at this from a fundamentally different point of view; that if a killer uses their power a lot, they shouldn't be able to use their power anymore. Overheat basically reduces Billy to a 115 M1 killer for the duration it takes to cool off - a trapless Trapper, if you will. My question is this; how is that fun or interactive for anyone? His saw is pretty damn fun if you use it at loops, and quite frankly, I think most people agree the chase is the most fun part of DBD. Mobility is related to the 1v4, but the 1v1 is where the fun stuff happens for the most part.
As for the second part, I think you've fundamentally misunderstood why Billy players just dropped off the map. It's because, compared to how he was before, he feels ridiculously clunky to play. So nobody plays Billy; they've just moved on to Blight and Oni because those killers just do his job but better - and they feel better to play, too. He doesn't have a reason to exist anymore. That's why nobody plays him. It's not about strength at all.
Also, for the record, a good Billy wasn't "too strong" in the slightest. I linked Quix's match against the Depip Squad earlier - I'd say that the players are roughly evenly skilled - and he came out with a 2k while using Billy's strongest addons back then.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2281007#Comment_2281007
Well, if you want the saw to be constantly used it can't be as strong as it is. You can't say "yeah we constantly want to one-shot, flick round corners, break pallets, and cross the map all the time with no limits." Blight has a lot of limitations and he's very strong, and his power doesn't even one shot. So would you be ok losing something else? Like ok the saw can't break pallets now or hit through windows or something? It just does too much to be unlimited.
"Billy was most definitely one of the most balanced killers in the game before the nerf"
That depends on how strong you consider "balanced".
IIRC, I constantly saw him toted as the 2nd-3rd best killer (or at the very least top tier after Spirit got added) and one who could deal with very co-ordinated teams. So if that's what you want the killers to be than sure. I think that's just a little bit much. I would like killers around the Huntress Level.
To me, he was just a little over the top and needed to be toned down.
I understand that it probably went a little too far, so I'm not opposed to improving him a bit. Its the how that's a problem. Completely removing overheat and that's it would be too much. He's still good/decent, he just needs some help to deal with the better teams.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2281021#Comment_2281021
"Billy was already punished enough for missing"
I mean, kind of but not really. The problem is if he missed he could just try again and again. Since his chainsaw one-shots, unless he tried like 8+ times or something he would down you ages faster than most killers. If you're trying that much you're probably not a good Hillbilly or got screwed by map RNG/design (which is a whole other issue). Then on top of that you had his map mobility.
From what I understand, most people aren't ok with Nurse because she's hard, they're ok with her because you rarely see one, let alone a good one. I believe most people agree Nurse is fundamentally broken and uncounterable, but since it only one every so often its not a priority. A good Nurse will win. Not even a perfect one, just good. If Nurse was getting played all over the place like Spirit, people would be complaining. If every killer was Nurse/Spirit levels we would have a problem, that should not be our balance point, Nurse and Spirit are not ok balance wise.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2281026#Comment_2281026
"Okay, then don't change the debris at all and just remove Overheat" Ok so all the problems I lined out before still exist.
I don't know what you consider "enough limitations", I felt like it didn't really have any besides "don't miss too much", and I didn't feel like it was particularly hard to land, especially compared to the payoff.
For the record, I don't see camping as a balance issue. No its not fun, but its not unbalanced. I was just saying it helped with the camping concern that was brought up.
You kinda just ignored everything I said, mate. Billy's power has limitations. It's called survivors not being out of position, and debris existing on pretty much every map that isn't Rotten Fields. He doesn't need Overheat as another limitation when it's already difficult enough to land a good flick, and most people would agree that chase is the most important thing in DBD - it's where most of the fun stuff happens. Realistically, a Billy can't make it across the entire map in one sprint without steering addons because of all the tiles in the way. And flickbilly is ridiculously hard to pull off consistently.
For what I consider "perfectly balanced" - a killer whose power scales enough with skill to be able to take out anyone the player is more skilled than, while survivors who are more skilled than the killer can reliably win against them. Old Billy was the closest example to this we had before he got nerfed. (Source: QuixoticGreen vs Marth's Depip Squad; he put on crack billy and came out with a 2k. Quix was probably the best Billy around, and he was using crack billy.)
I think if all killers were Huntress tier, we'd lose the player base. Huntress is good, but she relies on survivors ######### up to score consistent hatchet hits (i.e. putting themselves in positions where she can hit them in the first place). Don't get me wrong, I think Huntress is fine since most of the playerbase can't do that, but old Billy was a better example of perfect balance imo. His power scaled perfectly with skill, aside from a few bullshit addons like instasaw. I do see why you'd be fine with killers being balanced around Huntress, though - this game's comp scene is kind of a joke, so with the exception of the occasional sweaty comp team, Huntress-tier killers would perform just fine. I'm more concerned with how interactive killers are to play as and against, though, and I think Billy has much more interactiveness against a good team than Huntress does.
I'm glad you agree they went way too far. I do think simply removing Overheat would be completely fine, but for discussion's sake, what would you compensate this with? My perfect Billy consists of this:
- No overheat.
- Current tuned carburetor; if you want more charge time then you should be forced to use your chainsaw more (since you're 4.4 m/s).
- Both engravings basekit - both speed and charge time. The higher speed makes flicking much more viable, while the longer charge time makes backrevving harder (because backrevving doesn't require too much skill, at least in my experience). This means that Billy players are forced to flick more often, which counteracts the fact that his chainsaw is so versatile - it's one of the hardest things to master in the game.
- Pre-nerf animations as well. I didn't play Billy too much before his nerf, but according to some long-time Billy mains I know, he used to feel so much better to play.
Your next point, about Billy missing so much, is kinda my exact point. As I've said - we want newer/worse Billies to use his chainsaw more often, not resort to W+M1 out of necessity. His cooldown provides enough time to vault a pallet, window, etc. or even just make distance (and the saw is easy to dodge if he's coming from a distance). In my opinion, Overheat is just far too restrictive, and it doesn't allow new Billies to get as much practice in as they should.
As for Nurse, imo, the reason most people don't hate Nurse too much is because the skill you need for her to be truly uncounterable just doesn't exist. I'll again point to SupaAlf as an example of this - he's a ######### CRACKED nurse, and in his videos you still often see him getting the ######### juked out of him. Flickbilly is similar; his chainsaw is ridiculously strong in theory, but in practice, nobody exists who is skilled enough to the point where you can never dodge his saw. Therefore, I believe Flickbilly is balanced at all tiers of gameplay; from new players (Billies getting their ######### kicked in as they learn to control his saw) to good players (Being able to curve well enough to have a fun and interactive chase with most survivors) to high-tier competitive players (Probably losing due to good coordination, but putting up one hell of a fight and getting some sick curves in anyway).
That was a bit of a tangent, but I actually agree with you for the most part. I think we should balance around old Billy, not Nurse or Spirit. Bear in mind, I think Nurse has more potential than Spirit, but Spirit is better in practice because there truly is no valid counterplay to her like there is to all the Nurses who currently exist. Also, a good Nurse and a good Spirit aren't interactive for the survivors at all, so I think we should avoid designs like those that give survivors no counterplay. That's why I think old Billy was the epitome of balance, along with most of the rest of the community. His power was incredibly strong, but survivors were still able to counterplay it, and it took an extremely respectable amount of skill to master.
Billy's chainsaw's limitations consisted of debris in the way and the fact that, when flicking, he had to choose how hard to flick. Essentially, he had to predict where exactly the survivor would be as he released the flick - would they peel away from the loop to try and dodge, would they call his bluff and stick closely to the loop? From the survivor's side, is the Billy close enough to hit me before I can make it around this corner? That's what I mean by "interactive". There's a lot of split-second decision making and prediction that, ultimately, is what we should aim for in a chase. It was totally possible to make a Billy whiff his saw long enough to get all the gens done, even if the Billy was really good.
I see camping as less of a balance issue and more of a fun issue. I think killer powers should be structured to incentivize them to not camp, so neutering Billy's ability to just sit there with his saw 99'd would be a good example of a healthy change. That's what Overheat should be, imho - and hey, that'd be another limitation to his power. He can't use it to camp effectively. So you're right; we shouldn't remove Overheat entirely. But we should make its sole purpose to counter camping. We can do this by making his heat buildup disappear completely and immediately whenever he initiates a saw dash, since then you're not just sitting there with it 99'd anymore.
Thanks for having a civil discussion with me! It's a nice change from how balance discussions usually go in this community.
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@NoOneKnowsNova said:
Ngl he doesnt seem like a great Hillbilly, he made a lot of mistakes throughout that one game.
Additionally the clips before the game, why was he deciding to use his chainsaw when it wasnt necessary...? Playing M2 billy is almost as bad as playing M1 Billy with his power for transport only.
People keep saying "he's not a good Hillbilly", but even if he's not, it doesn't change anything I said. And I think using if using your power as much as possible is as bad as not using your power at all, there's a problem that needs to be fixed. That problem is Overheat.
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@Babawizwiz said:
I just got my adept billy today, it was my last and most tedious. Killer has a high skill floor and not rewarding when you're good at it.
Yeah, definitely. Especially since landing a saw hit punishes your emblems, since you only get 1 hit instead of 2. You basically have to be a M1lly for adept.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2280942#Comment_2280942
While not directly effecting his mobility, it does so indirectly because the player has to make a choice of "do I sprint or save this for the next chase." Its the same reason why Legions power is bad for map mobility, you won't have it when you get to the survivors and need it.
The problem with the debris issue without the overheat is he can just stop, take a few steps to the side, and sprint again. You'd have to make sure theres so much debris that he needs to spend a significant enough time to get around it all. At which point whats the point of even having it outside of chase.
While in a vacuum and on paper, sure I don't see a problem with this, you'd have to do this one every map and then you have to worry about how this effects every killer that needs LOS. Like Huntress would become a nightmare to play and all the stealth killers would be buffed a lot (which tbf honestly they could probably use). Its the much better option to limit/change him directly someway than to change the whole game around him imo.
Fair to him? Maybe. Fair to other killers? No.
Okay, then don't change the debris at all and just remove Overheat. While all you said is technically true, I disagree that any of it should be true. Billy's chainsaw had enough limitations before Overheat, apart from maybe being able to facecamp too well. (And if that's the issue, then Overheat should build up quickly by revving, but dissipate completely once you start a sprint. Wouldn't this solve the problem of facecamping? Also, Bubba.)
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2280918#Comment_2280918
I'm saying he shouldn't have no significant downside or cooldown to his power considering all it does. I think a cooldown so you can't spam it when it one-shots and has great mobility is fine. Also on the camping note, yeah it helps with Billies who used to camp with their chainsaw revved all the time.
If you can land your chainsaws and flicks its not really a problem, as you wont need to spam it.
I could go play flickbilly, or I guess more specifically Doom Engravings sure, but I'm not sure what that would accomplish. I already know what it does and I'm fundamentally not against the overheat even after using it. That's not going to change because I charge up .3 seconds slower in return for 20% more speed.
I think the thing is, against a good survivor in a decent setup, his chainsaw requires an incredible amount of timing and mechanical finesse to land a hit. It's incredibly likely that you'll need multiple attempts to land a hit like that - and that is the significant downside. There hasn't ever been a Billy in existence that can just perfectly line up a flick every single time they try, especially since there's the added survivor counterplay of moving away from the loop/outside your general pathing to make the Billy whiff. Billy was already punished enough for missing, even with how theoretically strong his power could be.
Same reason most people hate Spirit more than Nurse, even though Nurse's power is to ignore pathfinding entirely. The amount of skill it takes with Nurse to get to the point of having exactly zero counterplay is more than the skill of any Nurse main I've ever seen. Even SupaAlf, a 5k hour Nurse main who used to play on console, gets juked quite frequently.
Billy is the same. His power is ridiculously strong on theory, but in practice, there exists no Billy skilled enough to justify Overheat being a mechanic.
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@JoByDaylight said:
Billy still is one of the best killers regarding map control. The overheat makes sure that killers have to use their head using his saw, which is a good thing. Spamming his saw is not fun for anyone.
Almost every killer with such a good map pressure has cool-down on their ability, why shouldn't Billy? Nurse, spirit, Freddy, demogorgon just to name a few.
I think the best way to describe this isn't that these killers have cooldowns, more that they have limitations. Nurse has a cooldown because she can ignore pathfinding completely. Spirit has a cooldown because survivors get very little information when she uses her ability. Freddy has a cooldown because he also ignores pathfinding and just teleports straight to a generator. Demogorgon has to set up his teleport first because he can teleport to wherever he wants. Wraith can't attack while cloaked because he has full control over his ability. Blight has to weave between debris because he can cover large amounts of ground.
Billy's saw already had limitations - he couldn't turn well, and he didn't (still doesn't) have the maneuverability of Blight's ability. So if there were obstacles in his way, his map pressure already took a sharp hit.
Also, see one of my previous comments for why Overheat doesn't hurt his map pressure, only his chase potential (which is exactly what we DIDN'T want to nerf in the first place).
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2280873#Comment_2280873
I wouldn't say RIP, its not like you instantly overheat. You just get punished a little harder, so you have to be a little more careful. Again, punished for spamming.
Doom engravings just changes your charge time from 2.5 to 2.8, or 12%, its not like it makes him overheat twice as fast or something.
This whole "punished for spamming" thing seems to miss something - we want Billies to be constantly using their saw. It's a lot more interactive than W+M1, so we want to push newer Billies toward sawing more than M1-ing. Billy was most definitely one of the most balanced killers in the game before the nerfs, so there's no real reason not to.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2280851#Comment_2280851
There is also no other Killer who has such a high mobility-advantage. You cannot just focus on the Overheat and ignoring Billys strengths.
And as I wrote in my other comment, he messed up at least 3 times before overheating. He should not be rewarded with an Instadown when playing that bad.
Pretty much see previous statement; he only gets rewarded for landing the saw, even if it takes him a few attempts. When he plays badly and misses, he gets punished with a cooldown. When he plays well and hits, he gets rewarded with an instadown. Unless you're an absolute chad running Speed Limiter.
Contrast this to Pyramid Head, who gets rewarded for... pretending to use his power and zoning. Spirit, who gets rewarded for literally standing still. Billy without Overheat was possibly the best example of a killer who rewarded you for trying to use your power in a creative way, even if it means failing the first few attempts. I think we should be trying to encourage that behaviour (no pun intended) instead of the boring W+M1 noedboozlefury stuff. Wouldn't you agree?
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2280837#Comment_2280837
Then don't play flickbilly with engravings. If its only with that add-on that its a problem, that sounds like an add-on problem.
Engravings aren't strictly necessary for Flickbilly, but they enable him to pull off so much more crazy #########. The extra charge time also makes it much harder to backrev, which I think most people agree is much less fun to be hit by than a crazy flick. If anything, make them both basekit - crank his saw speed and make it take longer to charge, then remove Overheat.
Edit: This is also kind of a flawed argument, even though it's understandable logic. The addon doesn't cause a problem, it exacerbates something that's already a problem. So while it makes sense to say "if this addon hurts you then don't run it", the addon's effect isn't the issue; the stupid mechanic that makes it hinder you is the issue. So that's why we should remove Overheat. ^^
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2271486#Comment_2271486
Funny how you use this timestamp and not this:
https://youtu.be/xELkqkQjJ6w?t=331
Where he messed up and got 360ed. Which is the main reason why he has so much Heat in his Chainsaw to begin with.
And the Survivor being smart to bodyblock with BT is not really a problem with the Overheat-Mechanic. In fact, the Overheat-Mechanic is finally shown to be doing what it is supposed to do - punish people who play badly with the Chainsaw. And he played bad.
Of course, he messed up and got 360'd. So he bonked into the wall and gave the Nea several seconds to reposition herself. That is Billy's punishment for missing; he gives the survivor an opportunity to gain distance and waste more time. Ultimately, the only time you ever get a hit with the chainsaw is when you play well enough to land it, even if it takes you several attempts - because every time you fail an attempt, the survivor has another opportunity to reposition.
That's the main reason we're so pissed about Overheat. It was totally unnecessary. Now, to punish facecampers? Sure. Make it so that Overheat goes up when revving, but immediately dissipates when you start a charge (since you can't exactly facecamp someone while moving at 230% movement speed). Do you think that would be more fair?
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2280764#Comment_2280764
I don't understand, how does it punish you for just using the chainsaw in general? it only matters if you max the meter, its not like your chainsaw progressively gets worse as you heat it up. You only overheat if you're spamming the chainsaw. So doesn't it punish you for spamming?
It depends on how you define "spamming." In general, killer powers should be designed to be used as much as possible, especially one with ample counterplay like Billy's. Imagine if Demogorgon overheated after Shredding too much and died of heatstroke. We should be encouraging Billies to use their chainsaw more, not forcing them to W+M1 imho. If not more fun, it's a lot more interactive in terms of how you can dodge the saw and use the cooldown to get to a safer area.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2279820#Comment_2279820
"Getting good results by holding a button? Hmmm, that sounds familiar!"
Are you talking about survivors on gens? Because if so yeah, that's also dumb imo.
Yeah Bubba will down a survivor easier in the open, but he doesn't have the map mobility Billy has. Honestly that was my biggest gripe with him, just being all over the map as soon as the survivors did anything, especially if you had tracking perks like Tinkerer or something. If you want the chase potential back then sure, but I don't want him all over the map all the time like before. As for how you'll do that, I don't really know.
I just disagree with him being fun before, and with no one I know or meet having any fun with him either it was always so strange to me to hear these people on the forums that supposedly had fun against him and makes it hard for me to understand that viewpoint. I understand that's subjective though, I'm just sharing my experience.
Ideally a middle ground would be reached that both sides are at least ok with, both those that liked and disliked him. If one side wants flicks back then alright, but we don't want him all over the map all the time, just as an example. Again, as for how you'll do that, I don't really know without some form of cooldown (which is what overheat basically is).
Its all about compromise imo.
Here's the thing. It's less about compromise and more about what ends up with Billy being objectively balanced, and fun to as many people as possible. Everyone has different conceptions of fun, so the approach is to appeal to the largest amount of people - something old Billy did very well, provided they weren't a shitter Billy with no one escapes instasawboozlefury. Which says more about the player than the killer. That's not to say the minority opinion should be completely discarded; it's healthy to listen to people who didn't like playing Billy and try to find out why. But if there's a conflict that can't be resolved through reasoned discussion, then on something subjective like fun, it's just logical to follow the majority. Especially when the alternative is nerfing a killer almost everyone considered balanced, even if they didn't personally enjoy going against him.
The current Overheat doesn't really punish your map mobility. If you overheat during a sprint, you keep going anyway - there is nothing about overheat that hurts his map mobility, only stuff that hurts his flick potential. So I think we should revert the Overheat mechanic entirely, then add some more debris to make navigating the map harder with his limited steering. Hell, they already did that not long ago - there is way more stuff in the way on most maps, like trees and random rocks or tiles, that limit you to maybe getting across half the map in a single sprint. Do you think that'd be fair?
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Not just performance, although that's the most glaring issue to deal with. I think for the rest of the year, BHVR needs to actively listen to the community and make the changes that most of us agree are necessary. Changing keys. Reverting the Billy nerfs (with the exception of charge addons stacking). Bridging the gap between SWF and solo queue by adding some form of communication for solo queuers, then buffing the non-top tier killers to be able to handle that.
Most importantly, learn to cancel upcoming changes that the community doesn't want. MMR? No one wants. "Graphical" updates that just make the maps even more horrendously unbalanced? Nobody asked for. Again, Billy nerfs despite him being one of the most balanced and fair killers in the game? EVERYONE was against that, and you didn't listen at all.
Take some time off trying to puke out half-finished new content. Fix the content that's already in your game before you add more. That'll be healthier for you, for the game and for everyone who plays it.
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Btw, I'm sorry if I come across as angry or condescending towards you. I'm not trying to be, and I'm not really mad at any of you who disagree with me. Discussion is healthy. I'm just mad at BHVR for "mildly tweaking" a killer that they themselves admitted they were happy with, just for the sake of changing him. And then going completely silent on it.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2275618#Comment_2275618
This. I also didn't find Billy fun nor did anyone I knew personally.
He was just everywhere. Doing a gen? brrrrrrr. Got a save? brrrrrrrr. on the gate? brrrrrrr. Trying to heal? brrrrrr. In chase brrrrrrr. Spamming one shots all the time.
I don't want "haha chainsaw go brrrrrr" back again. He's still a very strong killer (imo), he just can't spam the entire match anymore. With a power that one-shots, breaks pallets, and lets you zoom at the same speed as Blight for strong map pressure with no requirement besides holding a button, I think that's fair.
Old Billy wasn't balanced. His current add-ons might need touching up, but don't bring back spam Billy.
Getting good results by holding a button? Hmmm, that sounds familiar!
Flickbilly is definitely more than holding a button, and his chainsaw isn't exactly helpful in a chase if you don't flick with it - unless the survivor gets caught WAY out of position, in which case Bubba does the job better anyway.
If you want to bring "I also didn't find Billy fun nor did anyone I knew personally" into it, then I raise you pretty much most of the rest of the DBD community. We miss him, man. I'm sorry you didn't have fun playing against him, but a lot of us loved a good flickbilly match.
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@Mossi4kHours said:
100% agree billy didn't need nerfs to his saw 1 bit just simple changes on the add ons would have been more then enough. As well as there being a skill cap to billy It was rare for you to see a really good billy who was hitting curves.
Yeah, absolutely. The only problems with old Billy were instasaw and crack, both of which could be removed literally by just nerfing Tuning Guide. Or making charge addons not stack. Or, you know, reworking Tinkerer. Which they did!
In fact, through all the nerfs BHVR gave him, crack billy literally still exists. It just makes you 110% now. So in classic BHVR fashion, they touched everything that didn't need to be touched and left the ######### that was actually a problem.
Billies need to be encouraged to use their chainsaw more, not less. It's almost universally acknowledged as being more fun than just W+M1 bamboozle endfury, which is what the vast majority of Billies who play him now do.
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@Zokenay said:
I remember going against Billy pre rework and it was just a nightmare, the guy had good map pressure on top of having an insta kill he could spam over and over, it simply was too much.
While the rework clearly weakened him, you cant deny it was needed, maybe tweak his addons, but allowing him to go back to being able to use his chainsaw how much has he wanted shouldnt return
I can absolutely deny it was needed. It wasn't. Especially when Spirit, Nurse and Blight exist.
As for "spam billy", if you couldn't get to a pallet or window during his cooldown animation in the several attempts he made to hit you, then honestly? That's on you.
#JusticeForHillbilly
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Calculated. Now Clown truly is a balanced killer. Thanks Almo.
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@Phasmamain said:
Tbf the first map was Hawkins which is bad for billy regardless but as of right now overheat is definitely too punishing
@kaeru said:
I played Hillbilly a lot after rework. It's mostly the same killer, but overheat actually make him unfun. If I played like there is no overheat, I would get overheat every 2 minutes. After rework you have to manage your overheat and sometimes chill your chainsaw and go boring m1.
He was one of the most picked killers at red ranks before rework. Now he is rare as unicorn on any ranks.
Yeah, that's the thing. He gets punished for using his power too much. And his power is one of the more fun things in the game, for both sides, according to most people. So why the hell does he need overheat? Were they trying to do an addon pass, realized they had no ideas for new addons, and then came up with a stupid mechanic to put addons in around it?
If that's the case, why??? The only things that needed a nerf before were Tuning Guide and making his charge speed addons not stack.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2271450#Comment_2271450
this video is trying to show why Billy’s overheat is terrible but all I see his him making such little mistakes that I can’t take him seriously
Again - overheat is terrible to both skilled and unskilled Billies.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
It’s not a good video I understand what you’re trying to say but the guy playing sucks I can tell he’s purposely overheating and it’s more the game and his fault not Billy’s
Here's the thing. Even if Coconut sucks, the overheat mechanic discourages new Billies - i.e. people who suck at Billy - from actually trying to use his power in a fun way. They just backrev since you overheat way quicker by continuously trying to curve.
That and overheat is just a stupid mechanic anyway, especially on a killer who was almost universally considered the epitome of balance.
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@Techn0 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2257803#Comment_2257803
I'm not saying that. Ques are just long and it's mostly 4k hour players. Which is fine. It's tied mostly. Just not very fun to have to sweat constantly.
Yeah, basically.