Gwinty
Gwinty
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@SuzuKR said:
There are literally dozens of issues with this idea. Keeping people hostage, drawing out an already boring mechanic (repairing) to be even longer, not stopping people who want to camp from camping, killing off the game at higher levels of gameplay where not being able to force second stage/death on hook is beyond insanely exploitable, three gen situations, drawing out the game in general to ridiculous lengths, etc.
Absolutely, absolutely no.
Remember that generators are supposed to be "boring" they are a moment where you have less "stress" until the Killer is on your heels again. Such "downs" are important to make a game feel better for a player because constant pressure will drain you out pretty quickly. This is why many dungeon crawlers or RPG games have moments of peace in them.
@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2758026#Comment_2758026
It's not that easy to prevent 3-gen every game. I have maps where I just force 3-gen from start of the game. Azarov's Resting Place is probably best example for this.
I did not want to say that it was very "easy". My main message was supposed to be that soloQ would get the short end of that stick because they would have it even harder.
What do you think: Could gen-placement solve this?
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@ActualPainedFrog said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2757208#Comment_2757208
Oni's got a bigger chest, clear counterplay, and is also far more attractive.
Sorry to say this but this person got it.
@BenihimeWrath said:
I'm unclear what drops Kazan down. With CoH you are getting 40% of your power every hit AND with CoH all the blood is getting grouped into one area. So now you are losing vastly less blood orbs from them simply timing out, because you never find them in whatever random spot the survivor decided to heal. If everyone is full health, that just means you get more demon strike value. I would say, at worst, you need to manage your blood orbs and power a little more intuitively, but other than that hes really not that much worse off.
How about the idea that survivors just got better.
More survivors understand that they have to play super safe against an Oni and not let him get the first hit to make him steamroll your team. On maps light Ormont (Mt Palletmont...) this is pretty easy and can be done even by a survivor like me.
Then longer Oni gets delayed with his power, then better for the survivors.
I agree that I do not feel Cycle of Healing that much. As most of my downs come from my power anyway this is not as much of an issue just as for Hillbilly or Cannibal...
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2758015#Comment_2758015
3-gen would be close to impossible to beat with time limit.
That could be an issue. This time limit idea was just a brainstorm and probably has even more flaws.
The problem would be that coordinated survivors would not suffer from this as they could prevent 3gens if they play well. SoloQ would once more bite the dust and get 3gened and end-game collapsed pretty often.
@gilgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2758015#Comment_2758015
Well they could unhook the survivor to get rid of the debuff if the killer is camping then it's just and 40 charges on each gen which wouldn't take long if gens are unprotected.
Your idea isn't bad either though, personally I'm not a huge fan cause I find match timers to be kind of stressful and would create a lot of situations where Survivors just give up since they don't have enough time or think they don't have enough time to win.
I just very much dislike the concept of a debuff for survivors for their teammates stupidity. Imagine if you have and AFKler in your match and he gets hook quickly. The Killer now plays fair and does not camp but goes chasing....
You would have created a debuff to all survivors who did nothing wrong. That sounds...not good.
A penalty or debuff for the person who got hooked on the other hand would sound more reasonable for me. Think about how Pigs Traps encourage Pig to leave the survivor alone because he is just not efficient and a good Pig will usually target anybody but the person with the funny hat.
If we could implement a mechanic with a characteristic like this we could reward Killers without punishing survivors who did nothing wrong.
As said: My "game timer" probably has many flaws and was just a quick brainstorm solution.
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@fulltonon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2758001#Comment_2758001
It's weird how BHVR cares about so called "survivor's frustration" but never think about killer's.
It is especially considering certain Killers.
I hate how they made Twins, an overall good concept with tons of potential into such a mess, and with Death Slinger how with one change they drained all the fun from him.
Did you know that Slinger has a mechanic that lets the survivor hear an audio that gets louder while you are in his crosshairs? Why didn't they make this more prominent to encourage a back and forth between Slinger who aims and survivor who evades more...
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@gilgamer said:
This isn't a change I necessarily think should be implemented but wanted to see what other people thought of it.
So what if they removed hook timers, so a person could theoretically stay on the infinitely, but while a survivor was on the hook gen speeds were halved and for each survivor that was hooked it'd be an additional 25% debut to global gen speeds.
My thought process is that this would encourage more interaction and altruism while making camping completely useless, though it would drag the game out for awhile.
Would need to be some caveats to how this would work in things like a 3 gen or something but just as a base game change what would your reaction to this be?
Global speed penalties are bad for the game unless you can do something about them. This was the reason people hated "forever Freddy" and why "old Freddy" had his problems: They were not op but plain unfun and uninteractive.
If you think about "Scourge Hooks: Gift of Pain" you see how that concept changed: Here the survivors have A a choice to stay injured and have no penalty or to heal up and receive a penalty AND they can draw aggro again, eat a hit and remove the penalty from them.
On the hook you are helpless to do anything about this. With a removed hook-timer there would not even be an end to your misery and do something.
I am all ears for a change that punishes camping and rewards hooking. But I am not fine with an idea that just punishes survivors with a flat penalty.
How about I offer you a different solution: The game is now on a timer. Each new hook decreases that timer and when it hits 0 all survivors suffer from the end-game collapse death. With this each hook would push survivors further against the wall and force them to become more desperate. At the same time it would allow Killers who defend their generators and get hooks AND apply pressure with a huge reward.
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I do not think that they need to reverse Hillbillys changes. Right now they should just fully embrace them and make good use of the Overheat mechanic. Pighouse Gloves are a good start but more add-ons like this should exist. Imagine an add-on that gives you an initial speed boost when you start sprinting from less than 20% meter or an add-on that lowers your charge rate while you are above a certain level of heat...a few more creative add-ons would do the job for me.
Now Deathslinger is a whole other issue.
In my opinion his ability to quick scope was fun for the Slinger and I get that many people enjoyed it. I however always hated it. Now, to clarify this: I know that quickscoping takes skill and you have to earn your shot. Skill should be rewarded and can be expressed in different ways, including this. However I think that it just feels so bad for a survivor that it had to go.
Now where I do not agree with the devs is that Slinger got 0 compensation on his new weakness and now feels clunky. I despise it when a Killer feels clunky because that makes them plain unfun to use as we see with the Twins. The change to address his quick-scoping should not have made the Killer feel that bad...
Also compensation to Slinger should have included a way for him to either get information, more range or map pressure. Like a "bounty" mechanic to fit his headhunter theme: Deathslinger starts the trial with a "target", he sees that targets aura at the start of the trial. Once you hook that target that survivor randomly gets wonky skill-checks like with Oppression or Overcharge and a new "target" is shown to the Slinger...
Anything to give him information or pressure to compensate for his 110% speed...also those add-ons are once more crap and he deserves better and more funny add-ons...
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A tier? Like up with Pyramide Head, Huntress or Oni? No way!
Cenobite is a solid B, maximum C tier, depending on how many tiers you add to your tiermaker...but he is clearly not "that good".
As various people said: He has a passive slowdown that works pretty well and soloQ survivors just refuse to ever fetch the box and hold it. By playing in his hands they give him a free chainhunt every time and this makes Cenobites winrate inflate quit much.
Against your normal team you can pressure a chainhunt a little bit or use Hoarder/Franklin's to make it happen sooner or later. But most times 2 people on coms with a brain is enough to offer a safe level of box-control for the survivors.
I play him, I enjoy him and he should not be changed for all I care. I rather take my enjoyable and thematic Cenobite over a stronger one or one that is more appealing to SoloQ survivors.
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If you would get Hillbillys banging chase music on Spirit you would just be back at "old Spirit" before her nerf because you would no longer be able to hear her phasing. Same if it would be the Nemesis theme...
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We can switch if you want. I am tired of seeing so few Plagues and I was so happy to finally see an Oni yesterday. I want to face more Plagues as I like them. How about I trade some of my Wraiths and a few Blights for this?
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For survivors:
"Boon: Exponential" now covers 32m instead of 24...I love this Boon...
For Killers:
Grim Embrace now looses it stacks once it activates. It can activate once more while all survivors are alive.
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@not_Queef said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2756879#Comment_2756879
You would still have to hit the skillcheck, though. You decide to leave the gen, suddenly you get a skillcheck at that exact moment, instead of the gen instantly blowing in an unfair manner that you can't control, you are allowed to complete the skillcheck (gen still blows if you fail it).
Like the way Overcharge works.
Basic quality of life to make one small aspect of the game less frustrating.
Sorry but your suggestion sounds too complicated.
Then what would be so bad about the skill-check getting "on the generator".
In my opinion a skill check "to go" is just stupid because that is not what skill-checks are supposed to represent: A difficult repairing operation where you have to be precise otherwise the thing explodes. By letting the skill check "on the generator", lingering for the next survivor to finish it this aspect would not be lost and it would not be a "buff" as some people call it anymore.
I get that a generator exploding because a skill-check popped up just as you wanted to leave is not good and feels bad. My change would help with that.
Now your argument is that my change sound to complicated. How so?
Generators can "save" skill-checks. You see this with overcharge where it lingers on the generator.
The problem is that when get the ability to let go during a skill-check and "take it with you" this will remove the "rooted on the generator" aspect. Suddenly I no longer have to deceide if I want to let the generator go or if I want to run way, I can do both.
When a skill-check appears and say, Wraith uncloaks next to me I can now run and finish that skill-check, probably hit a great and finish the generator while right now it would just explode.
I am all in for removing the frustation of an unseen skill-check. But I am not in for an easy to go mechanic where you no longer have to make a decision when the skill check already appeared on your screen.
My problem mainly comes from the fact that this sound as if it would allow people to also take a skill-check that has already appeared with them. If we can prevent this I will be fine.
@BirdSpirit said:
I'd be alright with the skill check staying on the screen as you leave. At that point you would hit it just to prevent the explosion and for points. The gen will not progress since you are no longer on it.
Great skillchecks grant a progression bonus of 1%. As such there is progress on the generator just for hitting a great. You will repair a generator you are no longer sitting on with this mechanic.
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@not_Queef said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2756654#Comment_2756654
+1
Idk how this wasn't implemented years ago.
Also, have to laugh at killers being outraged at the suggestion of basic quality of life improvements.
How is it only a "quality of life" change when you flat out no longer are either rooted in place or need to hit that damn skill-check?
I get that this should have some consistency but asking to do a repair skill-check on the run seems a bit weird to me. I have another suggestion: Skill-checks are now for the generator and not per survivor. You can leave the generator while a skill-check is running but the next survivor to touche it takes over the skill-check at the point where you left it.
Say the skill-check appears and is a 9 o'clock. You let go at 3 o'clock. Now the next person to touch the generator is met with a skill-check starting at 3 o'clock with a success zone at 9 .
This would allow you to get back onto your gen to not miss the skill-check or leave your teammate with a very difficult skill-check because it already started running.
You get you quality of life, the Killer still gets regression unless you show you skill.
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@ShinobuSK said:
You mean those instant skillchecks that happen as soon as you leave gen? Those are truly horrible and should be fixed.
Like let me hit it after I let go just like Overcharge
For me the problem comes in the form that the skill-check can appear just the moment you let go. Once it pops up you should have to remain on the generator to finish it. Hitting a skill-check for "repair" while not even sitting on the generator sound a bit strange to me and it is more on Overcharge to get changed here...
Maybe survivors could get a bit of a buffer that allows them to get back onto the generator once the skill-check pops up to hit it OR they can leave the generator while mid-skillcheck but that skill-check remains "on" the generator. Meaning that the next survivor will get to continue the skill-check on the point where you left it.
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@Mileena_Kahn said:
If you’re playing killer and you’re playing in a scummy way such as shaking you head no, hitting on hook, camping the whole game, tunneling one person the entire match, and slugging to death, why do you get mad if survivors manage to get the gates open and teabag you? I understand the killers that play normally and still get teabagged, that’s understandable… but to the others (which is about 70% of the killer players), why? You kinda deserve it.
Why do you get mad when I shake my head at you once I downed you? I only comment on your bad manner at the pallet where you tbagged me. Guess you can not live with the echo of your actions...
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@Minecraft said:
not cheating. also ghostface can't be revealed in open fields, let alone over walls 😂 he's completely bugged and not even worth trying to reveal.
also nurse benefits even more than survivors, so let's not pretend like it's a one way thing. it should be fixed, but it's not cheating.
you could use it while it's a thing, but it's not gonna do much at all unless you use something extreme
I read this and I take it to say: Did you ever play Ghostface against a streched-res user?
It feels horrible. Yes, your mechanic is bugged and both sides suffer. But streched-res makes you able to reveal Ghostface from nearly anywhere. Not to mention as a M1 Killer he suffers very much from the ability that a strech-res user can look over walls, blocking every mind-game there is.
Strech-res is cheating. Sadly I can not report it as I can only notice it as Ghostface and even then it could just be his wonky reveal mechanic.
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Very impressive, never saw something like this.
I will now watch this beauty and try to archive it myself someday.
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Overall it has improved. They always take the rocky road but they walk it. Many things I consider an improvement are not that well received by certain people however. I made a list once. xp
Now I think that survivors have gotten much better in recent times. This exposes more flaws than before and leads to more perception of imbalance. More people are using discord to communicate during a match and you will feel it (especially if you play, say, Ghostface or Myers). This however is nothing new...
The whining is overwhelming sometimes, but that could just as well be the amplifier which is the internet. Same for the toxicity: People will always post more about bad things than about good things. You do not play an awesome and close match where both sides congratulate each other in the post-game chat and write about it here on the forum after all...
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@Toybasher said:
I like the Ghostface we already have. He's not 'THE Ghostface" but to be honest one of Ghostface's gimmicks is they could be anyone underneath that costume. (I.E. when their identity is revealed, it's often surprising that whoever it is was the killer the whole time.)
DBD Ghostface's lore is decent. Some smug narcissist journalist who writes articles on his own murders.
I wouldn't mind some survivors from Scream, however. Or a map.
DbD Ghostface is perfect as he is from the lore perspective. I would like to get more insight into his life and how those murders played out and I really hope we are getting a chapter about him someday. After a Pig chapter was announced I got high hopes for this to happen someday...
We do not need a different Ghostface, unless there is a character in his story that played the switcheroo with him and got killed in the end.
Sure I would love a survivor for him but honestly: Why? This Ghostface could murder Dwight during his free time as well as David in the gym and it would be fitting. He could be everywhere as long as it gives him his fame and reputation.
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Why would she be nerfed to death after Sadako?
Hillbilly did not receive his Overheat mechanic because Bubba appeared but because of other issues they tried to "solve". Both are different Killers and have different aspects to themself. Also Legion did not get a "nerf" when Ghostface appeared because once again: Different characters and different powers.
I also do not understand why people think that Sadako was the inspiration for Rin, when she is just the representation of an archetype in the horror genre (Onryo-Yurei). She could just as well be based on the Ghost from "The Grudge", "Dark Water" or "Juon".
I am all in for survivor skins for different possibilities. However I would not take Feng for this. Honestly, I would like a legendary skin for Adam that changes him to Rin, just as we got a legendary skin for Cheryl changing her to James.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2756427#Comment_2756427
One thing that came to mind for me to make things more manageable is to attach either a '-X% radius' or 'Set radius to Y' trait to boon perks, depending on their power. That way, boons can be tailored for their individual strength, and you can rule that if multiple boon perks are brought in by the same survivor, you're stuck with a radius adjusted for the strongest perk, discouraging boon perk stacking.
Yes. Boon: Exponential would maybe even be fine with 32 meters and Cycle of Healing would still stand strong at 16 meters. Being able to tailor these radii would be a great option and only taking in account the smallest radius for stacked Boons would also be fine. You are creating a power-zone with a double (or even a triple) boon after all.
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Thanks for sharing, I always like looking at number about the game I like to play.
Sad to see so few Ghostfaces and Artists. But at least there are some Onis and Plagues. I do not face any of them lately and I kinda miss it because these matches are always fun.
Lots of Cenobite for sure...and...wait... about equal as much Twins as Pyramide Head?
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Most importantly: It has a tree model with branches that exist just to screw Hillbilly and Cannibal over. The entity takes her job as tormentor very serious, thrust me...
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Killers now have "Jolt" which is a pretty good regression option and "Fear Monger" which is also pretty sweet. Nothing like a "Hex: Ruin" but a solid perk non the less.
As a Killers your free perks also include "Whispers", "Bitter Murmur" and "Hex: No one escapes Death". As such you can make a pretty basic build with just those perks that will yield you some results: 1 tracking perk, 1 regression perk, 1 hindering perk, NoeD. As an example you can run "Bitter Murmur", "Jolt", "Fear Monger" and "Hex: No one escapes Death". Works fine. Nothing special but fine.
I think just because NoeD is in the mix, Killers have the stronger starting perks...
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2756264#Comment_2756264
No one gives a damn how balanced your game is if it isn't fun.
Consequently, I think a gap can be bridged between fun and balance-- it doesn't have to be one or the other. Otherwise, Hag would've been deleted outright.
Don't know why some people scoff at the mere idea of """"""fun""""""" being a factor for changing anything in this video game we play for our entertainment".
Thanks for this comment, I was about to write the same.
I will play an unbalanced but fun game any time but a unfun game is sure to get hit with the "uninstall" very quickly. Same for any game mechanic. Now we could argue about what is "fun" but getting killed instantly by a Myers you had no interaction with is just unfun for the most of us...
I agree that I would like to see Myers Tombstone Piece with a condition. However nothing like "hooks" or something like that, but a more Myers condition:Only a survivor that has been stalked empty/mostly empty can be killed. That way first of all only the person who fed him well can get killed, thus eliminating the "no-interaction mori" part. Also the survivors will now have a chance to outplay Myers by running and blocking line of sight. Sure, sooner or later he will get his Mori ready but until then you can play hide and seek.
People who defend this add-on are right that it fits Myers. Yes, it does. However where is the Myers part when you skip the stalking straight to the Killing?
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I do not think that Boons as a mechanic are a problem. Look at Boon: Exponential and you will see 0 problems unless a Killer is slugging very much. Also Boon: Shadowstep is mostly fine once you get use to it.
The problem in my opinion is that all Boons share the same radius. Cycle of Healing is quit big for what it does and with uncapped self-healing it becomes a huge issue for many Killers. Formerly you only had Self Care and Med-Kits with Self Care being very inefficient and Med-Kits having charges. Killers could play hit-and-run and use Nurses Calling as and example even with those things in the game: The med-kit would be empty at some point and Self Care is a huge amount of time wasted by the survivor.
Boon: Cycle of Healing means that you can now set up a healing zone where survivors can heal very time efficient and that never depletes. Worse: You former Self-Care user can now set up a Boon and be useful for the team by making them all more time efficient.
Now why are radii the problem?
They manipulate how easy it is to find a Boon and snuff it as well as the ground a Boon can cover on multi-level maps. With Hex: Exponential you have the problem that Killers will find it very easy to snuff it when you go down. With little to no control over where you can go down it is more likely that you will get value out of No Mither than Exponential. With Shadow Step and its lingering effect this is fine as you have a clear indicator that it is in play.
Now Cycle of Healing is on a whole other level: You can heal at the very edge of this thing to get the full value and you will have plenty of control where you want to heal. Killers have to go out of their way in a bad situation to snuff this little pest and on multi-level maps this problem becomes worse: A good Cycle of Healing on The Game can make your live so difficult...
Long story short: Boons in themself are fine, Cycle of Healing is a problem (and people only talk about it mostly, when they talk Boons) and fix radii for all Boons are a pretty bad idea to balance them.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754926#Comment_2754926
Sure. You could run other regression. But that's ######### boring. I don't run regression. Tracking builds are much stronger then regression when you're good at getting downs.
I'll 100 % disagree it's good on demo. And to an extent nemesis. But hey. We all have our thoughts. It's definetly an over rated perk and far from S-Tier
The thing is that it is solid and does exactly what it is supposed to do every game. With Hex: Ruin you can get a bad spawn, with Pop goes the Weasle and Scourge Hooks: Pain Resonance you can get your hooks in late...
Sure it is not as potent as those perks but it does its job every time. This is why people pick and overrate it: They see their perk work and they see other perks cashing in on their "risk" part of "risk and reward" when Hex: Ruin gets booned out of existence within the first minute...
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Sad to hear this. Yes, your build is pretty intense and I would feel very frustrated to face it especially if you single me out as your tunnel target. This can feel bad as a survivor as you have very little chance against a good Nurse player. Sure, frustating.
However this is no reason to allow any of which you just mentioned. Death thread and other stuff is no joke and there is no justification.
Please not however that you have 2 issues at hand here: The ingame-chat is BHVR problem. They have to do something about this and ban the players who send you those "kind" words.
Your steam profile however is on Steams side. This is nothing BHVR can influence. You have to report those cases to Steam to get something done about this.
I hope they get what they deserve for this...
And by the way thx for the build idea...I will try that too...
@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754434#Comment_2754434
I'd actually be all for a wrestling-style smacktalk, because in some ways being comical like that lightens the mood for both people. An example would be when I got a 1k as Nurse and one person messaged with "ggez" and I replied "Yeah? Well, if it wasn't for the sheet wrapped around my head you would have been killed. Playing blind is hardmode buddy!". Got a laugh from them out of that.
I know that's not the same as harrassment obviously, and all forms of abuse or harrassment should be dealt with. But if people really were annoyed, my advice is if you somehow have to message about it, make it comical and light-hearted, and focus more on joking about yourself as much as others. It eases the stress, and ultimately it does make you realise that at the end of the day you're both 2 peeps playing a game. Being Mori'd is not like having your family name slurred.
I tend to do things like that too. A bit trashtalk is fine but it never crosses a personal line or includes and insults to family or something like that. "Next time bring a tent", "Weaklings die, big deal", "Chainsaw goes brr..."...I was having plenty of that. Most times this is fun.
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@SunsetSherbet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754854#Comment_2754854
You dodged the question as to why it was needed. I feel if we nerfed it by the same amount for literally no reason, survivors wouldn't be going "omg who cares."
Also I have had so so so many situations where an extra second would free me.
I would have no problem if this was a buff that required as much skill.
However as you pointed out in your previous post there would have been mechanics to ensure that more skill was required. Especially the argument about the zones for "great" skill-checks hits home with me as this makes the wiggle timer a low risk, high reward mechanic. And these are problematic.
So yes the question is: Why are they buffing survivors?
I have no problem if there are reasons for this buff. However I do not see them. Different mechanic would be fine, different mechanic that rewards skill? Great, I take it.
But where is the punishment if you lack that skill?
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@Pulsar said:
You have to look at it like this.
Dead Hard being fixed so that it works properly is good.
The strength of Dead Hard is not good.
This hits the nail...
Hit Validation is a fair thing. Being Exhausted on the ground is not fair to a survivor at all and a Killer should not be rewarded for having lack... (Yes, I am looking at you vaults!)
They should just change Dead Hards exhaustion value and reconsider that the exhaustion wears off once you get hooked. If exhaustion was a meaningful difference between Dead Hard and other perks you could buff/nerf them until they fit.
@emetSdidnothingwrong said:
I mean their validation in general is absolute trash (the actual validation not the feedback.) If all they do is fix the feedback then it's still trash, just well polished trash. I'm not saying DH doesn't need validation or not, I'm saying the current validation is hot garbage and needs to be completely reworked from the ground up.
They should change this game to run on the server so that every action can get validated. However this is a big change and needs some massive server upgrades. However if it is possible to run shooter games on the sever this should be possible too.
That way every action would be server validated and the benefit of lack would be reduced.
There was a pretty good post about this issue here not long ago where somebody explained how that would work. I am not that into this mechanics.
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@SunsetSherbet said:
Nerf flashlights because it's not fun to get blinded.
And Clown Bottles do not even fully blind you...
Not to mention that flashlights can chain-blind you!
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The problem is that you take an arbitrary expression like "skill" and try to fill it with meaning.
This is a stage game. However you define "Skill" (first stage) will completely determine the result of the second stage: Creating a system that recognizes such "Skill". As such comparing your examples is pretty pointless. We have to talk about the definition of "Skill".
That is not to say that I do not agree with your expression of "Skill". Just that any further implications are pointless unless this gets clearly defined. And then we can face the problem about how that skill gets expressed...
Some problems arise here already:
As a survivor you can "wast" the time of a Killer without even being in a chase. I often wasted a huge amount of a Killers time by stealthing away with "Fixated". Most Killers do not think that I could make so much distance without leaving scratches.
The game is not able to register this.
As a Killer I juggle survivors (imagine a time before Cycle of Healing) as Wraith. I injure them, I run Thanatophobia and Sloppy Butcher and once they use their speed burst to get to a very safe tile I leave them. This is in itself a "smart" decision: I do not wast time by chasing a survivor to shack or a long-wall jungle gym. I only pick out "easy prey". This is a skill.
However as it is currently implicated the game gives me a point penalty for "losing" a chase.
Also an important question: What is the goal of this system?
Is it to find "fair" matches or is it to give people something to "climb". These are different goals and I think a lot of players mix them up...
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754692#Comment_2754692
They're both free buffs for completely zero reason to what are currently balanced mechanics as is on live. Supporting one set of reasonless buffs to a balanced mechanic and not others is hypocritical.
Okay, but then you would have to add a skill expression to the Killer side for each of those buff. You are kinda ignoring the skill-check component here...so you would have to add a skill component to your buff list too as small as it may be.
@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754692#Comment_2754692
It doesn't add anything to game, just like buffing the wiggling time doesn't add anything to the game. I'm all for QoL changes, but not when QoL changes bring about unnecessary buffs.
Wiggling time should be consistent.
Please elaborate. You are just putting up points without any logic tying them together.
First off: Why should wiggle time be consistent? What is the reason behind this assumption?
Then you just say that it does not add anything to the game. Please tell me why you discard the thought that skill-checks do not add anything. In my opinion this adds a component of skill expression.
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The implications of this are pretty easy.
First of all, I see no problem with BBQ. It is a good information perk that discourages camping by its ability and it is mostly there to reduce the grind. This is fine and should not be touched. However the problem is that this is motivated by the grind and not by the perk itself and this is a bit problematic...
Now the top 4 perks show a very clear pattern: Everything on slowdown. Killers need time and take the best option to buy them time. With Hex: Ruin taking a step back because of boons Killers change to a more reliable perk in "Corrupt Intervention". I am honestly not surprised...
It is kinda bothering me to see once more how much Killers need slowdown to keep up with the game...
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754668#Comment_2754668
6.25%, yes. I'm glad you are completely in support of every single one of these following changes then, as it's only "just" a small amount, unless you mean to tell me you're a hypocrite.
• Repair time increased from 80 to 85 seconds per gen
• Healing time increased from 16 to 17 seconds per health state
• Hook state timers reduced from 60 to 56.25 seconds per hook state
• Cleansing/blessing a totem is increased to 14 to 14.875 seconds
• Blessing a Hex totem is increased from 24 to 25.5 seconds
• Self-recovery (until the 95% default cap) increased from 30.4 seconds to 32.3 seconds
• Opening an Exit Gate increased from 20 seconds to 21.25 seconds
6,25% wiggle time is not equal to 6,25% generator time.
You need to compare things that are comparable.
@Crowman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754668#Comment_2754668
Then let's buff hook states so each hook state is 1 second less.
Why? Where does this add anything benefitcial to the game? Wiggled changes add more interaction and skill to the game. Where does a flat time reduction do such a thing?
@Dionysus42 said:
I don't care about whether you think it's a small or irrelevant buff. I just want to know the reason why it was buffed at all.
To rewards a skillful player over an unskillful one. Mashing buttons was never an expression of skill. Hitting checks aka quick-time events is an option to do this. Think about quick-time events in Mortal Combat, God of War and other games.
It is not a buff to survivors per se, it is a buff to skillful survivors and there should be a difference between them...
I would like to add that a penalty for missing wiggle Skill Checks should also be in place. As when you miss one and can not even score a "good" skill-check your should not get any wiggle progress for 1 seconds or so...
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@[Deleted User] said:
Old Freddy is not the way to go. Game delay powers should be relegated to the dumpster. You end up with a synergy situation where a not-so-skilled killer player can stack 4 game delay perks on top of a game delay killer power and simply win via attrition. It's not a fun gameplay concept. We had to cross this same bridge not even a year ago with new Freddy's add ons.
I disagree. Game delay powers can be good when they are executed in a good manner. Cenobites chainhunt is a good example as are Pigs traps. Both add to the game by offering a new objective and forcing survivors to coordinate without being over the top.
Please do not understand delay Perks as basics. You lead yourself into a trap when you build the game around Hex: Ruin or Pop goes the Weasle. The perks should be adjusted to the powers and not the other way around. A Killer should feel rewarding to play without the need for perks.
@GeneralV said:
I am glad you asked :)
I already have the concept ready:
Power: Dream Demon
Pull survivors into the Dream World
-Survivors who are awake do not see The Nightmare.
-Once targeted by The Nightmare’s power, survivors enter the Dream Transition for 7 seconds.
-The Nightmare’s Movement Speed Penalty for putting a survivor into the Dream Transition lasts for 1 second.
-During the Dream Transition Survivors can see The Nightmare intermittently and they suffer from the Incapacitated status effect.
-When the Dream Transition Lapse, the Survivor is pulled into the Dream World.
Once in the Dream World:
-Survivor’s auras are revealed to The Nightmare when they are outside of his terror radius.
-Survivors suffer an action speed penalty of 40%.
-To exit the Dream World, Survivors can find non-sleeping Survivors to perform a wake up action.
-Failed Skill Checks can also wake up.
-Hooked Survivors wake up.
Special Ability: Dream Projection
-Teleport to a Generator in view. Releasing the button early will cancel the action.
-Survivors cannot interact with the targeted Generator.
“You have nothing to worry about. This won’t hurt one… little… bit.” -Freddy Krueger
It is easy to fix a killer when said killer already had a borderline perfect design once.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2753018#Comment_2753018
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2753142#Comment_2753142
<3
Thanks for your input. I like the idea that Freddy has to pull you into the Dream World and I also like the idea that he is very strong once you enter his domain. This is the way it should be, no power while you are awake, godlike power once you enter his world.
However I am conflicted about a flat action speed penalty for being in the Dream World. This seems a bit harsh especially if it reaches all the way up to 40%. Thanatophobia is already pretty hard once you are hit by it and that is only 40%, 50% as an example from Coulrophobia can be very, very oppressive.
A more interactive mechanic to escape the dream would add more while allowing such a huge slowdown in my opinion. I would leave the clocks in the game when taking such a massive slowdown and give Freddy the ability to teleport to his clocks on top of the generators.
This would leave him with mobility all game while at the same time leaving clocks a risky tool to escape the nightmare. You can take the "safe" option of having a teammate to wake you up or the dangerous option to just take the clock and risk Freddy appearing right in front of you.
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@realflashboss said:
Its not really that simple. If you have anti loop then the only strategy bar nurse (i.e. losing line of sight) is to hold w.
I can kinda see the point. The only thing survivors have given that they are slower is to use loops. When yiy gave a decent anti loop killer they just hold W and thats just as crap for killer- sometimes more so in terms kf time wasted.
There just needs to be more thought process in how it can be fixed.
This is the equivalent to a Killer tunneling somebody if you ask me. It makes everything easier, it is a low risc, high reward strategy and you can do it with every Killer.
Most Killers that are labeled "anti-loop" still have their counterplay. Pinheads chain can be dodged, you can fake pallets and windows against Nemesis, you can run at Pyramide Head to abuse his awful steering...nearly every Killer has something like this. Survivors just take the easy way out by only holding W...
The problem comes even more present when they do this against basic M1 Killers with no mobility like Ghostface. It works, quit to well.
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@ThePolice said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2748062#Comment_2748062
I agree that all that is better except dead hard validation as it messes with killer powers too much
The problem is on the Killer side with the visuals. This is pretty bad and I agree with this. It messes with my Hillbilly (I stop when I hit, as such when I get Dead Harded I stop and enter 3 seconds of cooldown), messes with my Infectious Fright (survivor gets hit, survivor should be down, I need to react fast to make the most out of Infectious) and more. This has to change.
Still I know as a survivor how bad "exhausted on the ground" can be and I am glad that this is gone. Next fix should be the visual update that you no longer make the decision based on a hit you never got.
@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750002#Comment_2750002
I miss the weekly dev streams
Yeah...would be pretty sweet to see some of the Devs play their own game and experience some of out points there like hit validation on Dead Hard and other stuff. I know that they are very aware of this but it would show it.
Also I like those kind of streams because they make a feeling for the community.
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Rancor Roulette...I like the idea...
Aside from that: Dying Light + Furnitive Chase can be funny and I sometimes use it on Hillbilly and Oni. I chase one Survivor, another one does something else (Gen, Healing, Chest whatever). I rev my chainsaw or charge my spring and aim for the other survivor who does not hear me and go for them. Furnitive Chase allows me to reduce the reaction time of my victim. Sure, very situational but it feels pretty sweet when you do it.
You can also use it on Myers. He only has 16m Terror Radius and you can make it 0 in chase with 4 stacks if my math is correct. Never got to try it but also a pretty sweet idea.
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@espooked said:
shes literally so boring. anyone with half a brain holds w forever. can't even use her power, only to find survivors then m1, yawn
Well yeah, but that is on the survivors. Most of them listened to people calling her OP and unloopable ("anti-loop-killer") and do not even try. Holding W is just the easier solution, less risc, high reward. Looping is at least medium risk, high reward...
@GoodBoyKaru said:
I feel like I'd enjoy Artist more if we weren't already so massively oversaturated with anti-loop no mobility killers. As it is, she's absolutely not "amazingly designed" but instead puts me to sleep whenever I face her, or play her (because yes, I finally caved and bought her). It's been the same repetitive ######### for over a year now, with the exception being Blight, and I'm so tired of it all because every killer just seems to play the same and have the same counterplay. They use their power at a loop, hold w from the loop, repeat until you have to drop a pallet.
Her perks are good on most killers, but on my main Pyramid Head? They're trash, absolute garbage, completely useless and then some. I've been testing them and no they're horrible for him.
So if anything, I'm absolutely begging for them to release new content just so I can potentially have something new to play with, because at the moment the most recent killer content I've played with has been literally Silent Hill, a year and a half ago. Nothing after that has at all interested me, so it's like I've been playing a game with no new content in for a year and a half, and I am absolutely ######### begging fot something new.
The only thing I can really agree on is there wasn't a massively breaking bug.
This however is a whole other problem: No new content unless you buy a new Killer.
Hit the deeper problematic that survivors get more content just because adding a new Killer brings few good aspects for a Killer player. Survivors get a new enemy to face (well and then come up with the clever idea that holding W is fun but that's another story), but Killer players...maybe a few new perks to face and a new map.
I agree that these perks are bad on Pyramide Head: Why would you want to use a Scourge Hook, when you cage anyway. Why would you want to use Grim Embrace which triggers when you hook somebody...and so on...
The biggest addition for Killers were Boon Totems as a "side objective". You never saw Overcome in your games that much and "Corrective Action" is also no perk a Killer "feels".
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2749779#Comment_2749779
It wasn't that big issue before, but it was kinda ruined by SBMM. It's harder to enjoy playing weaker killers and there is just a threshold where you will get destroyed quite often.
So to enjoy weaker killer, you basically have to lose on purpose, so you don't get there. I was doing it with Pig and Legion and it helped for few months.
And let's be honest, with their speed of changes -> not many per 3 months, this will just not get fixed. Last mid-chapter gave us quite a lot of hope and it was destroyed this mid-chapter, for me at least. Nurse mains are probably happy tho.
I grinded my Ghostface and my Hillbilly into the ground. Back with Ranks I was aiming to become a Rank 1 Ghostface after SBMM I let survivors go on purpose, hooked them all 2 times for BP and then played just bad enough for them to escape as 4, I also did not give hatch but let the last survivor escape through the gate ever since...
My Cenobite never saw the glory of "playing to win" ever and as such he stayed on the "fun level". Still works good for me.
I do not know about this. They made some good changes like the latest Spirit change that was very well received. Also they buffed Trapper in a good way and made him more fun to play. Sure Trapper still does not compete very well (why can his traps be disarmed with bare hands while you need a Flashy for Hag?!) but he is still much more enjoyable and has some sweet add-ons now. The "escape and you are in dying state"-add-on is very mean...in a good way.
The devs are very unpredictable here...
Nurse bug fixes where also asked for like...forever and nobody talked about them. And suddenly here they are...
Its so random...the next patch could be a god patch that makes everything better for like 5 or more killers while also buffing soloQ and fixing maps or it could be another nerf to Twins and Clown with a buggy weak new Killer...
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2749783#Comment_2749783
I hope that condition will not be something to use on last survivor only. RIP free hatches :D
Nah, I also do not hope that. Giving hatch is one of the few moments of wholesomeness and I have to let somebody live as Ghostface to tell the tale.
I hope it will either be something specific for the Killers, something about hooks and survivors alive or both. Like "get 8 hooks and if all survivors are alive get to mori one" or for Myers "reach T3 3 times, get 6 hooks while all survivors are alive, mori one survivor who can not be stalked anymore.". Should be something hard as I think about Moris like Brutalities and Fatalities in Mortal Combat...
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Yes, I like most perks here.
I bought all the Trickster perks from the shrine. Hex: Crowd Control is pretty sweet for Hillbilly, Bubba, Oni and Spirit; No Way Out fits Myers perfectly and encourages good gameplay with the stack mechanic and Starstruck went on my Ghostface because it fits the character so well. (It is also a good perk...yeah, yeah...)
Nemesis bought us Hysteria which my friend enjoys very much on Plague and Legion, Eruption which I wish I had for Ghostface or Oni and Lethal Pursuier which is one of the easiest, simplest but best perks of the year. Especially for new players this perk was a good thing on Nemesis and for Killers like Oni and Ghostface it is very sweet.
Cenobites Hex: Plaything is very good for fun builds, I use it on Spirit and Cenobite himself. Together with "Hex: Thrill of the Hunt" it makes a descent slowdown and offers a "side-objective" which makes it overall a good design for me. The scourge hooks are...okay. Not the best but okay. However Deadlock is a nice perk to have and prevented the feeling of seeing 3 generators pop during the first chase with ease.
Finally we got Artists...yes, her Scourge Hooks are a thing...very strong in my opinion, maybe a tad too strong. Grim Embrace is something I have yet to try but it is overall a good idea to give the Killer breathing room in the middle of the match as a reward for playing with all survivors. Also they put some mind into this: Seeing the Obsession gives you a target. I will slap this onto my Ghostface soon. And Pentimento is just Exodia. This is the wonky perk I love...
Overall, yes, a pretty good perk year for Killers.
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I will do this point by point...
Point 1:
Boons themself are not the problem it comes from their effect and is pretty much a matter of their area of effect. Cycle of Healing is so busted because it can cover maps pretty easy and lets you heal without giving away their location to the Killer. Also Killers have no place for "anti-boon-perks" like...well there is only "Hex: Thrill of the Hunt".
A good way to balance Boons comes from their area of effect and I hope that the Devs do something here rather than changing the boons effect. You would not complain about a Cycle of Healing with 8 meters range and you would not even feel a Boon: Exponential with 32m range. You can see it on yourself: You only address one Boon...wonder why...
Point 2:
Map design is pretty tricky as it comes to personal preference. As much as you hate playing on RPD, I like the map. Unless it is the libary. There are few pallets and survivors can not just predrop everything, many pallets are super unsafe and can be played and as Ghostface this is one of the few maps where I can get funky stalks, down somebody and blend back in the shadow. Here I feel like Ghostface.
Overall however we can agree that there are too many pallets on some maps. The problem is that survivors need something to work with on big maps. Huge dead-zones are bad for them and are almost a guranteed down for the Killer. The survivors need to have something to work with.
Maybe it is time for different obstacles than only Pallets...or more tall grass to hide...
Point 3:
Oh, I saw one. It is called League of Legends. Started the game, played against bots, got a suicide wish and a death wish on game 3 and 5 where I was still playing against bots. I quit that game for good as I have no intention to play with feeding people who send me death wishes that often. Grieving there can ruin even your best moments and bad manner is always on even if you turn the all-chat off.
Adding a feature to turn the chat off would be sweet in DbD too by the way.
I am not talking about Ddos issues or hacking. Those are serious concernce that should be addressed. However notice that both can not be communicated well. BHVR can only say "We are doing something about it", because as soon as they hint what they are doing, they are loosing the arms race.
Point 4:
I enjoy my Pinhead. Good Killer, nice mechanics, good animation and design. I am a huge Hellraiser fan and got him as a gift day 1. I did not pay for an NFT. I payed for the DLC content. I got what I wanted and everything is fine for me. And hell, I even get the voicelines back.
I think they learned their lesson here.
Compare their performance to the past. You are comparing them only to your expectations which can be pretty bad as a measurment. Did they do better or worse over the last year? I think they did better. Improvement takes time especially if you are not working your devs like slaves as other games do.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2749730#Comment_2749730
They could release less killers / survivors and focus on game changes + skins for money.
There is so many things they could create and make money on.
-Let me buy a new mori effects, that would be big one, they said they want to make it somehow base mechanic in future, so it would make a lot of sense.
-Charms
-Gen / Hook / Locker skins
-Loading screens
-I want skins for Victor.
-new emotes for survivors (you really don't need some fortnite dances to ruin this, but some emotes would work like "hello", thumbs up / down etc.)
-Higher tier skins that might change during game based on number of gens / hooks. That would be cool.
Hmm, any other ideas?
Yes: Customizable basement. Let me make that place personal and show people my collection of random stuff that I aquired by playing the game.
As a cookie for free player: Charms that come with your rank at the end of each month, changing every 2-3 month or so never to come back.
I would also play for new Moris. Make Moris base, give them a stupid condition and let me buy a costume Mori for my character and I will do it. Even if Ghostface and Pinhead already are in S and A tier Mori-wise.
@BenZ0 said:
I would arguably say that Portait of a Murder was a pretty solid Chapter, no huge or game breaking bug. The survivor looks alright, his perks are okey, nothing too crazy but also nothing too broken, I would say at the very least Overcome is just a lazy excuse of a Perk.
However the Artist was amazing, she has 3 VERY good perks which makes her for newer players already one of the best chapters to buy right off the bat. She is very well designed, arguably one of the best designed Killers in this game (Gameplay design). She offers a lot of counterplay which also isnt too annoying to deal with and play against, she feels pretty smooth and is hella fun. Her ability utilizes everything in this game, what a Killer needs and also what you can use against it. You can use Flashlights effectively on to burn the crows or swarms, use lockers and also requires a lot of skill and practice to master her. Whenever I play her the game feels very tense and I need to pay a lot of attention to so much stuff, I just love it. She is also pretty strong and can be easily played on comp aswell. She also looks great btw, great design there.
And yet ppl barely play her, I bet half of the community doesnt even know what is possible with and against this Killer, I would say that BHVR has put a lot of effort into this chapter, especially the Killer and most of it has just gone to waste cuz ppl dont really chew threw the new content and still demands more that they are not gonna pay more than a few days attention to it anyway. Its just sad to see and I feel really sorry for the devs that put so much thoughts and effort into the Artist.
And thats why I say, dbd doesnt really need more content.
I also like the Artists very much. Good counterplay, hard to play and master Killer yet fun mechanic that makes such a difference if one knows they tricks. Also the chase music and the design are a kicker, her pallet kick animation...overall a good Killer. Yet nobody plays her and I wonder why. I see more Legion than Artist...
I personally only bought Jonah. Cool looking dude, funny perks (Boon: Exponential made it to my heart quickly and Corrective Action is so good with one of my friends who can not hit skillchecks for her live...). Also good design and a good scream.
I think a new character at least per 1/2 year is pretty good for the game. However they need to find something to keep things fresh and spicy during the waiting time...
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In my opinion people play the game for their Killer. They do not play the strongest Killer to win or the best Killer to get 4ks with, they play because they see a character and like them. This is of course a very personal thing, which makes it difficult.
When I look what Killers I play this fits very well. Sure I tried to play Nurse and get good with her, because I wanted to see just how broken she can be. But even as my kills got more and I got better with her and could feel that aura of OP she hes I did not get the feeling.
I quickly returned to playing Ghostface even thou he is tons weaker than her.
Later Cenobite came out and I got him as a gift. He quickly rose next to Ghostface far quicker than Nurse. And a while later I found Hillbilly and then Oni with Oni probably being the strongest Killer I play right now.
If DbD wants to keep their players invested they have to appeal to them on a personal level and bring them joy with their Killer. This is mostly done by giving them a clear strong point to which they can play as well as a smooth kit and personality. The Killer does not have to be super strong but it has to be unique and feel good.
I think the same appeals to survivors. The majority of survivors do not want to run "meta-perks", they want fun perks to use and outplay the Killer. Prove Thyself? Bad perk for this. Deliverance? Hell yeah!
This is why exhaustion perks are so good: They give the player a good feeling when they can make a play with them.
Now looking at this I think I would advice BHVR to focus more on the "fun" aspect and the smoothness of the game. I will play a wonky, unbalanced but fun game. I will however quit a balanced and unfun game in a matter of days or hours.
For survivors this means buffs to the less used perks and more mechanics where they can get a reward beyond a numerical value (Boons are good for this...as much as people hate them), for Killers this means more focus on their power and less on perks, more fun add-ons that alter their power (gives a fresh feeling) and for both some more numerical changes. No need to stay stale on values...
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Even in Dark Souls where you have no chat and can not tbag people found ways to insult each other.
Mandy said it and it is quit true that any PvP game will have this kind of "toxicity". There is no way to prevent it even in a system without any direct communication or insulting gestures.
Also you are blaming the wrong person. Do not blame BHVR, blame the toxic persons and their bad manner. Nothing stops you from snapping back at them as long as you know how. Somebody wrote "lol tunnler"? How about: "Weaklings die, big deal." Somebody writes "babykiller gg ez", just leave or write "sorry, I only try hard against good survivors", "Nah, you are just not interesting enough for an A game", "sorry, the episode of Jojos was demanding my attention".
Real hate speech such as death treads and when people tell you to commit suicide can be reported. And people who insult your mother are usually 12 and not worth your time.
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I think you are only reflecting the bad things here and this is just wrong. You should talk about the improvements that were made too to put this into a fair context.
2021 also bought us:
- Hook count for Killers (Allowing some to play for hooks far better)
- Clown Rework (Still weak but now at least fun to play and face)
- Trapper Rework, Add-on pass and Trap change (1/6 chance that increases)
- Wraith Rework
- Hex: Undying Nerf
- Blight Point-of-View adjustment (made him a good killer)
- Added colorblind mode
- Decisive Strike nerf
- Demogorgon changes (bought us the demoboy we love so much now)
- Freddy nerf (was too much reward for too little skill)
- Struggle change (no longer button mashing)
- Key nerf
- Failed Grab to basic attack change
- Pallet and Dead Hard hit validation (yes we sometimes hate it but overall its more fair)
- Pig add-on pass
- Spirit "nerf" (honestly just "Spirit made fair and fun") + add-on pass (finally more than "stat buffs")
- Snowman event
Also I liked the Cenobite. I am a huge fan of Hellraiser and Pinhead is a very good designed Killer in my opinion. He has the feeling, the sounds, has a interesting mechanic in chase that allows counterplay and is interactive and his passive gives a secondary objective that keeps survivors busy and not just playing M1 simulator.
Sure bad things also happened. But lot of good things were implemented too.
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@Tricksters_30thBlade said:
They suck and I'm a trickster main. Its unhealthy and forces survivors to hold W or go to god loops. Its unhealthy that there are so many anti loop killers. Trickster, nemisis, pyramid head, pinface,huntress,clown,doctor, freddy, demo.
All of these killers have an aspect of anti-loop trapper and hag do have aspects but they must set up while you may argue freddy need set up but he can use it in chase with out fully stopping. Huntress is also a bit controversial but she has the ability. Devs need to think about other aspects of gameplay.
Okay but what stops survivors from running to "god loops" once there are fewer "anti-loop" Killers?
Nothing in my opinion which will lead to survivors running there and then abusing a M1 basic killer. The problem is that "hold w" is a low risc, high reward strategy unless you play against Wraith, Hillbilly of Blight. You get the most out of your time and can still loop the killer if you see a good opportunity.
Also "anti-loop" Killer is like "genrushing" survivor. They play to their objective which is to chase survivors. So make the chase entertaining you have to give the Killer some ability to use mid-chase. Be it hatchets or chains, be it a speed boost or a special lunge or even an obstacle like clowns gas.
A better approach would be to refine those Killers and give them a counterplay that is rewarding while also punishing "hold w" at the same time.
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@dugman said:
The devs have said they consider actual face camping an issue they want to find a way to mitigate but haven’t come up with an effective solution that doesn’t create other serious problems.
“Tunneling” isn’t even a well defined term let alone an issue that needs to be addressed. All the tunneling complaints I get in game boil down to me having downed someone more than once in a row or chasing someone after an unhook. It’s just sore losing far as I’m concerned at this point, I ignore any gripes about it.
”Camping” in general is likewise an illdefined term that seems to encompass totally legitimate zone defense. Again, I’ve had survivors make ridiculous claims about camping, including for instance ranting about me “camping the gens” once. I get why actual facecamping is something the devs are interested in discouraging, but there’s absolutely nothing wrong with so called “proxy camping” which is just zone defense or patrolling an area.
Finally some people mentioned slugging, note that slugging is an intentional part of the game design. Some perks and killers are specifically made with the intent of leaving people on the ground while you chase others.
When I talk about "tunneling" I mean singling out the unhooked person straight off the hook and chasing them again, just to return once more when they are unhook to repeat it. Entering 3 chases with them without hooking anybody inbetween, even eating Deceisive Strike and pushing through Borrow Time.
When i talk about "camping" I mean just patroling around the hook and never leaving a proximity where something like "Make your choice" or "Hex: Devour Hope" could activate. Returning and checking while walking by or hanging somebody in a 3gen is not that much of an issue for me, this happens during the endgame and is a good strategy.
Slugging is no on the table for me. Some Killers need to do it (Oni, Plague) to get something out of their power. This should be the least issue to address.
@[Deleted User] said:
A lot of it comes down to map design relative to game speed and how tile safety/tile count and map size scales upwards but gen speed remains static. There's a huge difference between playing for 12 hooks on Coal Tower vs Eyrie.
Survivors never have to consider resource management on larger maps if their team is focusing on generators. You can pre-drop everything and still only go through half the pallets on some of the more massive maps. The maps aren't designed to be optimized from a gameplay perspective.
Point being, a killer doesn't have many options on a huge map aside from playing around half the map and focusing on area control. It's not compelling. It's not exciting or engaging. But it's the only chance a killer has against anybody good.
With this point of "map design" I agree. If we look at Mt Ormound (Mt Palletmont for one of my friends) we see too many pallets with no need to safe them. There is no need to even save the shack pallet for later as you or your teammate are probably not going to return to this point. The problem does not even include "unsafe" pallets where you can make a play (even thou on low loops there is not much "play") but only safe pallets and structures...
I have no problem with big maps, I like them. I even like big indoor maps like RPD. But the amount of pallets should never be so high that you can loop a killer for 3 gens, wast every pallet without a single "play" and just predrop them and still leaving enough safety on the map for the rest of your team.
Okay, so we need to fix maps.
@zarr said:
I agree with other people that have said to nerf camping/tunnelling, see where kill rates fall to, and then go in with various buffs to bring them back up (general buffs and buffs specific to the killer characters that struggle to perform). Mind you, I for one don't want to nerf those strategies "out of the game", just make them less effective. But if we don't change anything about them at all and instead just try to "encourage" players not to employ them, not only will players still employ them, but they may even collaterally benefit from those changes. And those strategies are not only undesirable to certain extents and therefore a game experience issue, they are also too effective in public matchmaking and therefore a live game balancing issue.
There are various things that can be done to alleviate the problems with those strategies. Remove hook grabs. Increase the invincibility duration for unhooked survivors (basekit BT). Basekit Kindred (perhaps without the killer aura). Basekit DS (disabled in the endgame). Have unhooked survivors be healthy. Use the cage mechanics of Pyramid Head to rework hooks, namely teleport the survivor to a different random hook location if the killer is within a certain range of the hook for a certain amount of time (wider range and shorter time than PH's cages though, because those can still easily be camped). Various killer-specific adjustments (think Leatherface). Hell, remove hook timers altogether.
Killer buffs to compensate would naturally revolve around other elements of the gameplay. Increased movement speeds. Increased base generator regression. Increased pallet break and window vault speeds. Maybe the ability to cancel and thereby fake pallet breaks and window vaults. Faster wall breaks, "bursting" through them. Basekit BBQ (no points, no range condition). Basekit Ruin (no Hex totem, .25 c/s regression, gens can still be kicked to increase that regression to .5c/s). Basekit NOED (Lethal Blinks and Grudge hits not counting as basic attacks). Basekit Pop (on the farthest-away gen from the hook that has progress, highlighted for the killer). "Early-game collapse" (block all generators until the first chase begins). Various killer-specific adjustments.
These just as assortments of random ideas.
One idea that actually does go the route of "encouragement" would be to apply repair speed debuffs whenever a killer is in a chase, and repair speed buffs whenever a killer is within a certain range of a hook. For the range, around 20-30m seems reasonable. The repair buffs would only start to apply 5-10 seconds after a respective hook has happened, to give the killer time to leave. If the killer is chasing a survivor within that range, the buff and debuff would cancel each other out. A debuff of 25% could be alright, making generators take 26.6 seconds longer to repair if the killer is chasing for the entire interaction. In order for the repair buff to cancel this out in cases where the killer is chasing survivors around the hook, the buff would have to be 33%. That translates to 20 seconds faster generators if the killer is camping for the entire interaction, which is good because at that point hook stage and generator align at 60 seconds.
A similar thing could be done to discourage tunnelling: Give an unhooked survivor a repair speed debuff until they are hooked again, but if the unhooked survivor is being chased and/or hooked again before any other survivor has been hooked, give all other survivors a repair speed buff for as long as that survivor is being chased/on the hook.
As for an idea that would actually get rid of camping/tunnelling/slugging altogether... Make the entity swallow up a survivor as soon as they go down, respawn them at a random location far away from the killer on the map in the healthy or injured state. On their third down, survivors get sacrificed instead of respawned. If you want to keep slugging in, make it so that the killer has to manually call upon the entity to swallow downed survivors. Obviously this would change a whole lot about the game and require a lot of other changes, but it would make for an a lot more chase-centric, low-downtime, action-packed gameplay flow for everyone involved. I doubt BHVR would ever do this because it changes too much about the character of the game, and there are legitimate arguments that it would lose some key qualities, such as the strategic elements of camping/tunnelling/slugging and their counterplay, as well as their "thrill" and "danger" factors of being capable of turning games around and/or ending them within a short period of time, but still, many people would regard this mode as superior and desirable, and it's technically easy to achieve.
A less extreme modification that would still do a lot to make the game less campy/tunnelly/sluggy would be to make it so that the killer wins automatically after getting X hooks. The exact amount of hooks could be unique for every killer, which would make balancing a lot easier too. So say a Nurse wins with 12 hooks, a Wraith with 8. There are no hook stages and survivors do not get sacrificed after 3 hooks either, rather all survivors get sacrificed after the respectively necessary amount of total hooks has been reached. In order to prevent the targeting of weak links, you could make it so that at least two survivors have to have been hooked in order to reach the goal. A tie would be if the killer gets half the amount of required hooks. Anything above or below that would count as a "soft" win for the respective side. If all survivors are hooked/slugged simultaneously, allow them to unhook themselves and pick themselves back up.
Again, just ideas to demonstrate that it isn't impossible or even difficult to fundamentally change these things.
The problem would be, if you see Killrates fall you will also see a decrease in Killer players. You can not risc this blow to the playerbase of a single role as this would make either que times go through the roof or just make matchmaking an even bigger hell. This is why in my opinion you have to buff Killers when you nerf camping or tunneling. Many Killers player will lose their fun in the role when you take away only their tools and give them no compensation.
Your brainstormed suggestions are not bad but I would like to add that some of them seem quit abuseable, especialy the basekit BT and DS one. The increase speed also seems problematic because loop design is based around those values very much. A single tweak can ruin the entire game very quickly.
I do like the idea of giving the ability to "fake" vault and kicks and I support the removal of "hook grabs". We rarely seem them anyway unless a survivor is very stupid and in those cases they would go down to two basic attacks anyway.
But I would like to make another suggestion: If the Killer is within x meter from the hook for a certain amount of time and no survivor is within that perimeter than the hook breaks and the survivor on the hook becomes free with a long enduring status effect (think at least Borrow Time value, maybe even as high as 20-25 seconds). The timer put on a hold when another survivor enters the perimeter (no need to punish the Killer for teammate interduced camping). Just a quick brainstorm to address the issue.
As an encouragement I was also thinking about the ability to Mori a survivor when you were able to get 8 hooks, while 4 survivors are alive and the gates are powered. People love their Mori after all...
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I saw what the game was like back when and it is a rocky road of steady improvements from there.
The devs are not working fast, but they are working and most of their efforts yield a positive result in the long run. Many however need some or many tweaks down the line to work.
Now just form my experience, here are some good things that happened during my time:
- Better Borrow Time (no camping Freddy)
- Better Deceisive Strike (no "60 seconds of immortality")
- Hit validation at pallets and on Dead Hard (yes, I hate the visuals sometimes but it is much fairer)
- Better Struggle phase (less button mashing)
- Nerfed Keys
- Nerfed Moris
- Clown Rework (yes, still weak but now more interesting)
- Nerfed Freddy (too easy for too good of a result)
- Better Spirit (fair to face now, better add-ons)
- Fixed Blight (look what just an increase of vision can do)
- Reworked Wraith (tons more fun to face and play as)
- Trapper Rework (2 traps, as ordered)
- ...
Overall the game is improving. I do not want to go back to the time of 2016 where it first came out especially when I see certain perks or loops from back then.
I do not think that they only care about survivors. They are very aware of the need to bring in new Killers and make their experience worth it. Unlike some survivors the devs know that Killers are not NPCs. However increasing and balancing them is much harder than balancing a single survivor.
Also please note that one of DbDs best qualities is the ease at which you can pick up the game. Compare that to League of Legends, Dark Souls, Monster Hunter or other games and you will notice that you can get into DbD very easy. This opens the door for new players and should not go unnoticed. Which is why every "improvement" should not add to the entry barrier of the game.