Dino7281
Dino7281
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@Mandy said:
I really do not think you can compare racism with teabagging - that's quite baffling.
Not sure about teabags but I can definetly make arguments against flashlight macros as an epileptic....
I can compare feelings vs actual health issue.
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@The_Daydreamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/303096/just-delete-twins-at-this-point
Not here to burst your bubble but actually both sides are receiving buffs and nerfs aswell. I guess it just sucks if you mainly play Twins. Just look through the last patch notes. https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/kb/articles/298-5-3-0-hour-of-the-witch
Personally I find the dev-update for january pretty underwhelming and I would agree that Twins received some stronger nerfs than buffs, but I don't think that they actually needed buffs. Twins are still pretty strong killers. Victors cooldown after getting kicked is just a joke imo.
Regarding Boon perks: I still think since release that they need a nerf. Less range and maybe a CD would be fair, but Boon Perks are actually a good thing. Especially if people are dumb enough to boon your hex.
At the end I think I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think that the topic should be that emotional.
He is not talking killer vs survivor here, so don't try to make it that way. He is talking about single killer and how past changes affected them.
Have you ever seen power struggle against Twins?
Boons are super annoying too, both CoH and unbreakable one.
Fatigue after each down is just so much pain. You are punished for not slugging. It's just not worth to try switch to Charlotte and pick up. You have to wait 5 seconds + 2 seconds slow. It's better to move towards next survivor for extra hit.
They don't need hard buffs, but they do need changes.
Just let me swap to Charlotte during fatigue. It would help both sides. Less slugging and Twins will feel much better to play as.
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@dugman said:
Not everybody thinks Twins are bad. For example, OhTofu has them at S-Tier on his killer tier list for high level play from this week, and Otz has them between A and B tier.
Ha, here we go again.
Twins are not bad, they are worse for sure and mainly they are clumsy.
I disagree hard with OhTofu about Twins tho. He is kinda affected by his tournament results and forgot how many perks had survivors banned there.
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2729935#Comment_2729935
Yeah I remember a time when iron grasp and agitation was meta against 99 sabo meta.
Funny part is I use to 4k far more back then too XD
I think that is also because of more RNG matchmaking and I think people just used to play troll builds more before. Now, it's just do gens asap and leave...
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I agree that some addons nerfs weren't needed at all, but I think perk buffs are better for killers this patch. Last midseason had better survivors imo.
Dead Man’s Switch will be really good.
Furtive Chase I am sure, there will be fun build for that. Well, I know build, I just don't know a killer. I want to try M&A, Furtive Chase, Make your choice and Pain Resonance.
Gearhead might be interesting. Not sure how good it will be, but we will see about that.
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2729835#Comment_2729835
Tbf its surprising killers ever got anyone in the past considering everything they had. But back then the game was new and looping as it is today was never a thing.
But it was good to see a post about the bad parts of the forums get the bad parts in itself lol
Magic of the forum I guess :D
It's amazing to see how many broken things were here before. Thing is that it wasn't an issue because this game started as hide and seek. When it changed into The game of tag, then it was an issue.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2729889#Comment_2729889
It's the Player TEST Build. You really shouldn't be giving feedback if you're not even going to test the perks before writing it; you're skewing the evidence.
I can tell something is bad change from start. We just have to test how much bad, but that doesn't change it wasn't needed.
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@Tdbrown50 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728741#Comment_2728741
Yes I’m petty and bored.It’s fun and I don’t care.
Understandable. I think that's good enough reason.
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It's funny they didn't buff Licker Tongue while changing Nemesis addons. It's so useless.
Did they really nerf Mikhail’s Eye to oblivion just so noone still cares about Shattered S.T.A.R.S Badge?
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I don't really care about addon changes. It kinda makes sense to nerf overused addons and buff bad addons.
If they would nerf basekit, that would be issue. Looking at Wraith...
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2729830#Comment_2729830
Not everybody thinks Twins are bad. OhTofu put them in S Tier this week on his high level killer list, and Otz has them between A and B tier.
Bad is not right word for them. I think they should be described same as Deathslinger. Just clumsy
That Victor fatigue where you have to wait 5 seconds and then you are slowed for 2 seconds after each down is just annoying. Otz complained about that a lot btw...
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It's going to be so much fun with Pain Resonance....
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@gendoss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2729756#Comment_2729756
Yes and I said that after you said I probably suck at the game and tried to discredit my opinion.
I didn't mention invisible number that means nothing.
I just assumed something about you based on something you said. It's quite simple.
So everyone knows, based on what it is. You said:
"Survivors have been on the short side of the win rate for years and years now and we just want some balance."
I mean, FOR YEARS? Those poor survivors with infinites? Oh no, I feel so bad for them. Insta heals, stacked pallets, MoM, Brand new parts... it had to be terrible for them....
You even used incorrect numbers about kill rates multiple times trying to "prove" your false points.
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I didn't say anything about MMR. I just doubted your personal skill as a player based on what you said. I also created an alternative, I would be kinda fine with soloQ having short stick, but SWF? That would have only that explanation...
This you? "You are low MMR" - check
This you? "I am highest MMR" - check
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@Impartiality said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728914#Comment_2728914
Okay why don’t we play a private game and I’ll facecamp you as bubba, show me what you would do lol
not let you down me in first 40 seconds is usually enough :D
Your problem is that I don't care if I die. I have second monitor power!
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It's good to use I'm All Ears for some time. It helps you learn how survivors react to you while they break line of sight.
He is decent killer, not as good as before, but still one of better killers. I prefer Nemesis tho.
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I don't know how I feel about that Ghostface, but power to teabag survivors is good enough I guess....
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728892#Comment_2728892
As much as i agree with you on DS and BT being needed due to camping and tunneling, them being basekit would be too much in their current state. If they were slightly nerfed and turned into basekit features, that'd be fine imo
You really don't want DS and BT basekit.
They are not something killer should know for 100% it's active.
DS actually started to work better after nerfs, because killers don't respect it that much.
Do you think you would ever used DS unless you get into locker, or bait grab? No, you will get slugged almost everytime. There are killers that would not care about it as Nurse, Spirit, Blight, just fast killers that can down you after DS really fast, so they don't really care.
I would be fine with BT, maybe shorter tho. STBFL free stacks.
But it's dumb to want DS basekit imo.
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@Impartiality said:
Every time a post like this is made you just realise how many killers are in this forum who have no skills and get carried by camping
Every time a post like this is made you just realise how many survivors are in this forum who have no skills and don't know what to do against camping.
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It's time to open a box and cum.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728859#Comment_2728859
If DBD didn't have Killers abusing face-camping and camping/tunneling-off-hook-till-dead, then all these anti-camping suggestions wouldn't exist. However, when you don't even get a chance to play the game because of face-camping and camping/tunneling-off-hook-till-dead, and you realize 2 of your perk slots are always being used as Decisive Strike and Borrowed Time, so you can at least run the killer until the other 3 survivors finish the gens.
The big takeaway, is this is a problem caused by Killers. And yes, basekit Decisive-Strike and Borrowed Time would somewhat affect Killers who didn't face-camping and camping/tunneling-off-hook-till-dead. However, face-camping and camping/tunneling-off-hook-till-dead seriously affects survivor players to the point they can't even play the game, way more than the annoyance that Killers who don't use those tactics would ever be affected.
Borrowed Time pretty much only affects a Killer if that Killer immediately comes back to the hook. If someone makes an unsafe save, then go after the unhooker, not the person unhooked. Simple
Decisive Strike, the person running it isn't doing gens, it's impossible for someone with Decisive Strike to do anything. It's literally the definition of anti-tunnel, it does nothing else. If they run in front of you, slug them.
If someone makes an unsafe save, then go after the unhooker, not the person unhooked. Simple
Because unhooked survivor is not going to body-block with BT, right? if I wait and down him, he is not going to have DS, right?
Unsafe save is mistake by chased survivor, if you are chased and you went for unhook, it's on you and it should be something that killer can punish.
If I decide that someone is going to die, do you think I care about DS / BT? Only thing your change would do is hurt killers that want to play normally.
If I want to camp, I will take Trickster / Bubba. I don't care about your BT, I can kill you anyway. What do you think happens when I am going to know for 100% that you have DS? I will just go pressure other survivors and pick you a second after it ends.
DS is not something you want basekit. DS actually started to work better after nerf, because killers stopped respecting it.
DS and BT would be used to annoy normal killers and killers that want to actually camp / tunnel are going to play around it. You are never going to use DS unless you get into locker.
And what do you think would happen to survivors builds? All those BTs would get replaced with anti-slugging / gen-rushing perks and killers would be even more #########. Yay, balanced.
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@Yatol said:
how is Kindred not strong? It allows you to make guess of where the killer is going or what the killer is doing. SWF dont use the perk not because its weak but because they get it for free.
the real "mongoloids" is anyone who fell for the 7.0.0 patch video, how underage do you have to be to not know you dont jump from 5.xx to 7.0.0
I doubt anyone wants killer aura basekit. Well, probably some do, but I can't take those seriously, it would be just dumb.
It's more about survivor aura part. SoloQ would see if someone is going for unhook, so you will not get situation where multiple survivors waste time going for unhooks / noone is going for unhook.
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Better than ignoring it, isn't it?
They have decided to commit on SBMM, so be happy they are making it better at least....
Extended Breaks change is something I have talked before. It was one of the things that was worse compare to old ranks, so I think those changes are improvement for sure.
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I would wait till they unhook, then I can hit both anyway.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/302906/just-give-us-base-kit-kindred
I would rather have base-kit Decisive Strike and Borrowed Time. It seems like survivors have to bring those perks in or get camped and tunneled to death, weather you have Kindred or not.
Definetly something that can't be abused... not at all
It would be used only against those filthy campers/tunnelers, survivors wouldn't use it to annoy any killer and get protected by a game. Not at all...
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@AngyKiller said:
Can Killers get base kit Deerstalker? To avoid slugging, of course.
Nah, I want base kit Rancor. To get 2K average of course.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728358#Comment_2728358
No.
Solo Q needs to be buffed so killers can be buffed after.
Killers already have a 60%+ win rate against solos.
I love numbers pulled out of nothing...
There is not a killer with kill rate higher than 60%.
It's not true that all 4ks are against soloQ, as 4 escapes are against SWF, so that will create that 50-60 average. You have good soloQ players that escape a lot and you have SWF players that are not really trying, or new / bad players that are dying a lot.
Your 60% is not based on anything, it's just your guess.
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Either it will be too small and I will just stand on the edge, or it will be too big and survivors will try to loop you in that area to blind you.
Maybe make it so killers don't feel need to camp / tunnel and reward killers that don't do it.
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@egg_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728783#Comment_2728783
Roughly my same estimate, good to know
Alright, I have found my comment, so I don't have to start from 0.
There is 90 killer perks, so that's 270 tiers. Till you reach rank 50 you can get 59 tiers, which costs around 1 600 000 BP, after it you have cost around 50k for 2 tiers, so right now, if you have all perks to get everything without prestige costs around 6 875 000 BP.
and we have 26 killers, so you need 178 750 000 BP to max out all killers without prestige.
If you want to max all killers everything with prestige too, then you will need 303 550 000 BP.
Survivors have 101 perks, so that is 7 700 000 per survivor without prestige.
If you want to max all survivors everything with prestige too, then you will need 362 500 000 BP.
You would need 666 050 000 BP to get every perk on every prestige 3 character.
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I have calculated it few chaptures back. For everyone all perks prestige 3 survivors and killers it was 594 150 000 BP. It's more now, but I am too lazy to count it again...
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Grim Embrace can be really good, if you manage it to active soon enough and gain pressure from it. Problem is that you have to find and hook all 4 survivors, which can be an issue sometimes.
So far overall I don't like that perk, but your buff might help.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728761#Comment_2728761
I miss the days of ranks when people would always say I was grey ranks and I could show them rank 2/1 consistently 😔
Now I have to hope they believe me, which nobody ever does.
Everyone knows you used photoshop anyway...
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@iThe1One said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728764#Comment_2728764
Read the comment right above this, information is too powerful, getting Kindred + several other perks for free without equipping them is why 4 man SWFs are so oppressive.
It doesn't matter.
I don't even think that is the best part about SWF. Best thing is that you chose who you play with and basically ignore match-making. Free info is good too of course.
But you want more players and letting players play together helps that a lot. That has nothing to do with balancing.
It would be better to give more info for soloQ, which they are going to do as announced in dev's update. When is gap between SWF and soloQ smaller, it will be easier to deal with balancing killer vs survivors.
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Yeah no....
It would be dumb to do this from seller's perspective. You want players to bring their friends. Why would you limit it?
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You forgot best argument: You think it's not true? Hmm, you must be low MMR and I am the highest MMR ever recorded!
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728468#Comment_2728468
If you dont want to play the game why even get into a match and ruin it for the ones who actually want to play?
Hmm, petty and bored?
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@zarr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728707#Comment_2728707
Yeah, getting that chase endgame to work would be finnicky, but it is possible. A user on reddit had an interesting rework idea for the perk Sole Survivor that actually came close to what you are suggesting here, and close to how I would prefer to see endgame scenarios like this function: https://nm.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/oelbd4/a_rework_of_sole_survivor
Being able to switch during Victor fatigue seems reasonable, and I do agree that it could be shipped without anything else to "compensate". Would not be opposed.
My basic idea of quick-switching between the twins is outlined in comments I made in this thead: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/297661/exponential-proves-the-devs-have-forgotten-twins, starting on page 3. Specifically:
I wouldn't be opposed to decreasing the "wake up" duration from 3 to .25 seconds when switching back to Charlotte, same as when switching from Charlotte to Victor. I don't see a balancing reason that would even necessitate this long period where you are unable to control Charlotte. It feels bad and if anything the "surprise attack" quality of catching survivors out that are being bold around a dormant Charlotte is something Twins should have. It would also improve the chase interaction where the killer player can switch back and forth between the two in order to catch a survivor out on tileplay, and this quality of "chasing one survivor with both twins" is pretty cool and something we barely see with the current 3-second wake up duration.
Damn, imagine when you walk next to her and she just wakes up in 0,25 seconds :D I have actually done it with insidious few times, that I faked playing as Victor to watch survivors as idle Charlotte, then hit them when they get close. It's really funny to get their response in endgame chat.
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@espooked said:
Most of the female survivors
Simp detected....
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@Etsuhara said:
Anyone who boops the snoot.
Oh, I hate that easy counter-play that Pig has. You crouch for a minute just to get boops and you can't kill that survivor anymore...
SWF are super broken against that. One survivor tries it and when it works, everyone is going to boop the snoot and you just have to let them finish gens...
I actually do it, it's quite funny when it happens. It happened only few times, where everyone wanted to boop the snoot first thing they saw me.
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Protect Jeffs!
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@zarr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728668#Comment_2728668
My ideal endgame would put the last survivor and the killer in a chase for survival. If the survivor manages to survive for X seconds in that chase (a timer which could scale with the amount of pallets left on the map, as well as the killer that is being played), the Entity grants them an escape; if the killer downs the survivor, they immediately get sacrificed by the Entity. Of course the endgame as it is now has some tactical elements like stealth and whatnot that would not be nearly as much of a factor in this "sudden death chase" endgame scenario, but not only could there still be adjustments to make those elements more relevant there too (e. g. it could still be possible to stealth-juke and lose the killer in that chase, with the timer still ticking), but ultimately the current 1V1 endgame scenario is really not very engaging at all. Even literal hatch stand-offs still exist, where the killer finds the hatch first but refuses to close it, waiting for the survivor to show themselves. So yeah, the game stands to gain much more from an endgame rework than it stands to lose.
Japanese tournaments are actually wild. I follow the Asian scene fairly closely and have for years, and even I still don't always understand what their tournament formats, rules and balancing precisely is. What I do know is that killers do ridiculously well in them, 4ks with gens to spare are super common even with lower-tier killers. But that's also partly due to weird rules like survivors not being allowed to cleanse Hexes until the first gen pops, and more such stuff.
I wouldn't say tournament DbD is a completely different game at all, in concept, but yes, it is a different format, or "mode" if you will. I do actually think the state of balance in restricted tournaments resembles that of average pubs closely enough to make meaningful statements with regards to the latter, and again the fact that tournaments are balanced with 4-SWF voice comm teams in mind whereas pubs aren't leads me to believe they too suggest pubs are killer-sided. But I agree that we shouldn't use tournaments to say the game in pubs is such and such, because pubs are a different realm with a different state of balance and more importantly a different state of the gameplay experience ("live balance"), and that state definitely has issues that affect both roles, and can yield bad experiences for both roles.
Either way, I do think the game is actually fairly well-balanced in the premise of 5 roughly equally skilled and experienced players in a match, playing equally as much to "win" (to kill or escape), and the survivors being randoms that do not know each other, do not have out-of-game communications, nor any coordination of builds and the like. That is the actual base game balance premise, and in it I would even assume a bunch of killers to be overpowered. Of course, voice comms and SWFs with coordinated strats, tactics and builds do exist, and the game in various respects is not balanced with that in mind. Likewise it is not balanced for 12 hooks. Good players can still absolutely get 8-12 hooks in pubs, but that's of course because pubs often throw together players of wildly varying levels of skill and experience, even now with MMR. Against equal opponents, only very few killer characters could feasibly play to consistently get 8+ hooks. These are both aspects of the balancing I hope BHVR will in the future address, by nerfing SWFs and nerfing camping/slugging such that killers can be buffed enough in other gameplay aspects to actually consistently be able to play for 8+ hooks even against equal opponents.
Various means of healing being unavailable or only limitedly available in these tournaments definitely adds to how well Twins can perform, but it's still crazy given that coordination even without considering any perks or items altogether should be such a strong tool against them, not least because survivors can obviously heal each other.
I did suggest some Twins tweaks that concentrated on being able to switch much faster between them, I think it could work to improve them while also making their gameplay more exciting for both sides. But that would have to go along with some nerfs too, such as increasing the time before you can release Victor again after he got crushed.
Last chase idea is interesting for sure. Maybe give Object of obsession effect when there is only last survivor left, but OoO will be removed when the chase starts. That would be really fun.... Problem with that is how chase mechanic works, killers would try to get as close as possible by moon walking, so chase doesn't start etc. that would probably need a different rules. Maybe OoO removed and chase starts based on range between them instead.
Thing is that letting Twins switch during fatigue is simple change imo and it would help both sides. Right now Twins are basically punished for not slugging, you just stand doing nothing for 5 seconds, then also slowed for 2 seconds as Charlotte, which is just bad to get for each down. It's way better for them to slug survivor and stay as Victor to get extra hit. If they let them swap during fatigue, it would be valid option to switch to Charlotte asap, which would reduce amount of slugging as Twins.
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I would try Whispers, or Sloppy instead of Spies...
Or Jolt is good for Spirit.
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This is OP btw:
Hello Friend!
I'm a Korean user who plays survivor and killer. I'm not good at English, so I wrote while using a translator, so there will be a lot of mistakes.
I would like to ask for your understanding I looked at the developer's patch details. I think I agree with that. But if the Survivor also buffs, I think the Killer should also be strengthened fairly...
Survivors are more likely to win because of their skills, items, and squads...
On the other hand, even if the Killer has a good perks and some nice addons, the killer's chance of winning is very low depending on the survivor's builds.
The Killer can't keep up with the generator's speed because survivors repair the generator much faster... If you want to strengthen the survivors, I think you should strengthen the killers accordingly.
What do you think?
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There will be second part, so we will see what else they are going to do.
Only change I would want that would affect every game is change of spawns. I think survivors should spawn all on same side of the map and noone next to gen.
Right now you can have each survivor spawned on different gen and just what can you do in that situation?
This way it would slow games, but it wouldn't really feel bad to play as survivor. I definetly don't want to see just slower gen speed etc. that's boring.
Otherwise, I would love to see totems fixed, so ruin can't be removed in first 30 seconds, because survivor spawned watching your hex....
Otherwise it's more about buffing weaker killers than generic changes.
Changes to help soloQ are definetly good imo. I have talked about that a lot before. Make gap between soloQ and SWF smaller, then we can buff killers better.
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@zarr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728628#Comment_2728628
If you are actually having a blast "playing" that way, you do you. I would at least suggest reading a book or something, and be it while you are standing around in the game.
Honestly it's actually funny, if you are indeed having fun this way I can appreciate the comedy of making those players frustrated with their time in the match. Before the Freddy rework I actually sometimes equipped Rancor and would do nothing all game but follow my Obsession around and swing at them from the Dream World, and only pull them into the Dream World once the last gen popped, to immediately mori them. I did not do that very frequently at all mind you, but I still have to admit it was hilarious to me.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728632#Comment_2728632
Thanks for understanding. I of course have no right or leverage to tell you to stop quoting me in these contexts, so I do appreciate if you are willing to refrain from doing so.
I'm not saying the game is overall killer-sided because killers are much more favoured to at least still get 1 kill than survivors are to at least still get 1 escape, but that aspect itself is of course killer-sided. It would actually be relatively easy to bring about a state in which survivors are about equally as likely to still get 1 escape even in bad losses, by adjusting the hatch and gate specifics in 1V1 (and 2V1) scenarios. Since killers currently can slug the second-to-last survivor and get 4 minutes slug time (plus hook time thereafter) to find the last survivor without that last survivor having a chance to escape, currently securing a 4k in these scenarios is all but guaranteed. Imagine if the slugged survivor could kill themselves in these scenarios, if survivors had at least equal chances to find the hatch as the killer does, if the gate opening speed would be increased for the last survivor, if gates never spawned on the same side of the map, and so on. Doesn't mean I personally actually want those changes (but some of them could be healthy), I actually am more inclined to want a rework of these endgame scenarios that put the killer and last survivor into a chase for survival, but yeah, from a "balance" perspective a kill/escape range of 1-3 (and 0-4) is objectively more equal than the 1-4 range the game as it is yields.
I agree with you that ideally, the game would be balanced more for the idea of 12 hooking events rather than 12 hook stages, but that is unfortunately not the reality of the game. I do hope the devs will at some point actually pursue a balancing approach concentrating more on hooks rather than merely kills, and decrease the effectiveness of things such as camping and slugging, instead buffing killers' chase strength and map/gen control, and I have advocated for such a balancing approach frequently over the years. But of course, looking at the balance of the game as it is, we do necessarily have to account for things like camping.
It would definitely be interesting to see how all other killers perform in this setting. Though to note, this tournament actually encouraged killers to go for fresh hooks with its point system, so a tournament that actually only weighed kills would be more ideal if we are looking only at kill rates to gauge balance, which is obviously the perspective the devs and most players have, the balancing around 2 kills. In such a tournament you would see most players at least with the lower-tier killers go for hard tunnel and camp plays to secure 2 kills, and I do suspect it would work out fairly often, maybe even enough for lower-tier killers to approach and even achieve 2k averages. Of course it would not be a very interesting gameplay experience or spectating experience, but it is what it is.
Twins perform surprisingly well in tournaments still (it does and always did surprise me, the level of coordination in tournament teams should be such a strong tool against Twins, and yet they have often even outperformed killers like Nurse), but yeah, again, I do agree that they deserve adjustments to the new reality of DH vali and COH. More than that, personally I would actually want a more ambitious Twins rework, of nerfing Victor but buffing Charlotte a lot to compensate. We most likely won't see that happen though, of course.
I am not sure I would like making almost guaranteed hatch play, but gates on same wall should not be a thing for sure. I actually like more when I manage to outplay killer and escape, where I know it's something not easy. It would be kinda lame to have "guaranteed" escape. But it's true that overall kill rates would work better, if most results would be between 1-3.
There was kinda tournament like that in Japan (I think) where they played lower tier killers. I remember lot of Pigs and yeah it was played exactly like that. Hook one survivor, face-camp and then do it again with NOED during end-game to secure 2K. That is just boring to watch.
Problem is that tournaments with scoring that forces killers to try multiple hooks and banned perks for both sides are better for an audience, but they don't reflect actual game at all. It's just completely different game at that point. It would be interesting to see some version of this implemented as alternative mode, but I doubt they will ever do it.
I actually didn't watch all games in that tournament, I just skipped through them to count hooks/kills, but I am going to watch all Twins games, because I have no idea how they managed to get so many 4Ks. Number of banned perks probably helped a lot there... Basically most healing and antislugging perks are banned, so it doesn't reflect actual game again.
I am fine with Twin's power, I just wish they would let me swap during fatigue, so I don't waste so much time watching downed survivors...
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@Alpa said:
Please make your MMR rank visible for each killer, and for survivor so you can gauge where you stand skill wise.
Add a world leaderboard for each killer, and for survivor. It would be cool to try and make top 10 for Blight as example..
Every single game I ever played in the past with a MMR system shows you where you stand.
I brought this up with friends and we play the game quite frequently. They all agreed it was a very cool idea and would encourage more of a grind, or whatever..
CoD games have version of SBMM and don't show your MMR.
But you can see number of wins, average K/D etc. so that's probably even better....
I would like to see MMR for sure.
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@zarr said:
It's always perplexing for me to see takes like this. You think refusing to play the game while being in the game is somehow a "gotcha", rather than you wasting your own time when you could be doing anything else, including not being in the game to begin with? That's even a step above people that apparently still play the game constantly despite professing how deeply they hate the experience.
Even if I were to get bodied in all of my killer games (I don't, I win much more often than not), I would still play for even just any singular chase I can get, any singular hook, any second I can prolong the round by, because I play the game for what the game is about, and I wouldn't play the game at all if I didn't enjoy what it is about. To stand around refusing to play the game I came to play because I'm "losing" is a paradoxical notion to me. Not least because a match is never actually lost before it is, so even if I were to care more about "winning" than about playing the game itself, there'd still always be reason for me to keep trying.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728504#Comment_2728504
It's cool that you keep spreading awareness linking to my thread, but I would like to ask for you to stop doing so if you're gonna keep using it to further false talking points that you in the thread itself already brought up but did not want to enter a discussion on.
Kill rates are not "boosted" by 1ks. As I'd already pointed out there, the fact that killers are massively favoured to secure at least 1 kill in much of any scenario is not something that would be "skewing" kill rates in some artificial or unfair-to-killers way. It is a completely balance-relevant aspect of this game. (And also completely relevant to the experience of the game that is being balanced for, it's still an actual player actually dying.) Just like it would be completely balance-relevant if survivors were massively favoured to secure at least 1 escape in most scenarios and thereby make 4ks vanishingly rare. The fact that the game favours killers to win with 4 kills much more than it does survivors with 4 escapes naturally is a killer-sided aspect of its balancing, and as I had also already pointed out, to bring about a more fairly balanced state of the game with regards to this, there would have to be changes that make it equally as likely for survivors to at least still have 1 escape even in landslide losses as it is for killers to at least still have 1 kill. I. e. we would have to strive for a 1-3 kill/escape range. Or alternatively of course, there would have to be changes to make it much less likely for the killer to be able to secure at least 1 kill even in losing, such that the range is actually 0-4. But to use this already killer-favouring balance aspect of the game to argue they should be even more favoured is just perplex.
It doesn't matter how much camping was done in the tournament to achieve those kill rates. Hook stages do prove that killers did not simply camp/tunnel 2 survivors to achieve 2k averages, but even if I had not recorded hook stages altogether, camping is part of the game and therefore naturally inherent to its balancing.
Spirit did not only get 1ks. She was played 4 times, one round of which was a 4k. She averaged 1.75 kills, and 7.75 stages. She is absolutely viable here, and not only that, she has only recently received a fairly big balance patch and players are still figuring out how to optimally play (and build) her. This is especially true for comp players that have been playing and practicing Spirit at this level for years, as now her chase dynamic has changed a lot and takes a lot of unlearning of old habits and learning of new ways to utilize her. She definitely got nerfed, but she's still high-level viable.
Talking about high-level viability, it's not really a meaningful point to say that only few killers fall into that category. We are not only talking about the highest levels of performances here, we are talking about the highest levels of loadouts on the survivor side as well. They have to use the absolute strongest perks, items and add-ons on everyone in order to be able to compete at this level. The survivor side conditions for high-level viability are at least equally as limited as those for killers, and arguably they are decidedly more limited since being an SWF team of 4 highly-skilled players that practice together frequently and use voice comms are prerequisites for a survivor side that is competing at this level that killers do not have.
Beyond that, these results are not actually evidence that only these killers are viable at this level. Players mostly only chose to play those killers here, the lack of other killers being played is not automatically evidence that they would not be able to achieve a 2k average here. In fact, the 3 times that other killers did get played, they averaged 1.6 kills and 7 stages, with Huntress getting a 3k. I agree that it is unlikely for most killers to achieve a 2.X kill average here like Nurse and Blight did, but it's not impossible, and there are actually a fair few killers that with the help of certain add-ons could very well still manage to. And regardless, in tournaments where both sides have restrictions and players are forced to play other killers (i. e. tournaments where both sides are not using S-tier loadouts), kill rates still average out to slightly above 2 basically every time, with 3-4ks being completely possible for a whole bunch of killers. Including Twins by the way, who are definitely still a highly viable killer, even despite the fact that yes, they have suffered from recent changes (DH validation, Circle Of Healing) more than any other killer (and do deserve adjustments to account for this, in my opinion, such as Victor being able to snuff Boons).
You can make arguments for the game being killer-sided. At the top level here with both sides using the strongest stuff and playing at a very high level, kills rates did average out to above 50%, they are killer-leaning. Hook stages even more so. And since this is an environment with survivor teams that have levels of coordination and cohesion as well as practiced voice comms that are basically non-existent in the public matchmaking environment, I actually think the game is killer-sided in public matchmaking. Global stats also support this conclusion, as do the kill rates of competent-and-above killer streamers that win the vast majority of their pub matches (with any killer), regularly pretty decisively. Only for equally as skilled 4-SWFs with voice comms pubs are comparably as favourable, which is not even 5% of the overall playerbase as far as we know. But I still want buffs for a bunch of killers and nerfs for SWFs.
My bad about that Spirit, I actually didn't notice that last game. I thought there are only 3.
That tournament is talked about a lot in different arguements and often with wrong numbers, so I would like to link it in future, but I will make sure to get my opinions about it in separate comments.
It's kinda interesting take to say game is killer sided, because 4 escape is less likely than 4 kill. I don't consider that being killer sided, just because it would be impossible to make this even chance. You would have to somehow prevent anyone being killed before reaching some number of hooks on everyone and balance around that. I am not saying camping is not valid method to get kills. I just value it differently than actually hooking survivor 3 times, mainly because of killer's time wasted on it. Kill with 1 hooks is just different for me than kill with 3 hooks, that's why I usually prefer to track hooks and not hook stages.
High level viability is kinda hard to prove. Teams usually use lower tier killers only when they are forced by rules and survivors are limited hard in those games. It would be interesting to see tournaments where survivors can use anything they want but play with lower tier killers.
There is still high chance for 1Ks even with that, but I don't believe it would be above 2K average. But as I said, hard to prove when it wasn't done and probably never will be.
But I understand that you don't like my opinions and your post linked, so I will make sure to make it separate, so it is just an information to check for others whenever we talk about that tournament. To make sure data are correct.
EDIT: About Twins, I created stats from OhTofu tournament and Twins got quite a lot of 4Ks, which I really didn't see coming. Survivors were limited tho. So maybe Twins are not as bad, but they are clumsy for sure. I hate that long fatigue.
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@burt0r said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728605#Comment_2728605
I know hence why I made the first argument.
Admitting i didn't knew of this new tournament.
But that doesn't disprove that the other killers are only balanced around restricted survivor in a tournament environment.
Hey, I just made stats from OhTofu tournament's, where is quite a lot of perks banned.
@Dino7281 said:
Hi, so I like tournaments and I like data. I hope noone has done this before, but I didn't find it at least, so I watched tournament that was hosted by OhTofu and tried to get some data from it. Sorry, if I made a mistake somewhere.
So general rules:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_vqE5Dyy9qB9PLq1HX5jYARBGoo_A8AFNUiWdArr4ns/edit
-Perks can be used only once, except BT (twice)
-Number of items allowed is different for each killer
-9 banned perks for each killer and 19 banned perks for survivors + specific banned perks based on killer
-Team can't play same killer more than once
-Team can't play from same pool more than twice
Pool 1 - Blight, Nurse, Spirit, Twins
Pool 2 - Pyramid Head, Artist, Oni, Doctor, Hillbilly
Pool 3 - Huntress, Demogorgon, Plague, Hag
I wasn't interested in survivor's perks when they can be used only once, so I tracked just kills, hooks, killer perks.
Most used killer perks (41 games)
Corrupt 41
NOED 26
Ruin 23
No way out 18
PoP 11
Undying 9
Killer averages
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/RWSIWFQ6VEZ1/image.png
Banned perks is just how many, you can see what perks in a link above.
Items are:
0 - no items
2 - Uncommon Flashlight + Firecracker
3 - Uncommon Flashlight + Firecracker + Common Medkit
4 - Uncommon Flashlight + Firecracker + Common Medkit + Common Toolbox
Games results
Average kill rate 2,17
Average number of hooks 5,05
Then you have dbd league, there is so many banned perks there.... For example survivors have 41 banned perks against Ghostface :D
Thing is that it is only way how to make it at least little interesting. You have to limit both sides. Survivors are way more limited for sure.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
I don't get the whole banned perk idea. Seems completely arbitrary. I'd be more interested in a tournament which perhaps had perks put in groups of usefulness, and the players have to pick 1 from eaxh group and cannot reuse the perks until all have been done.
Looking at the killer setups, it's as if the same choices may have been made, whether the 9 perks were banned or not.
I'd actually like a tournament whereby players have to use a whole load of unique setups. Maybe that might be devised in future?
There was tournament like that hosted by Wwispy1.
Data from it are here:
@zarr said:
Over the last weekend, www.twitch.tv/Wwispy1 held a tournament in which every character, perk, item, add-on and offering was allowed. This makes it special because usually in tournaments there are a various restrictions for these things in place.
I have taken stats on a plethora of tournaments in the past, and every time without fail average kills settled slightly above 2. My experience with and analysis of tournament DbD has contributed to my opinion that the game is actually reasonably well-balanced at the top end, and to my understanding of why the game is statistically killer-sided in public matchmaking. Since killers can evidently compete even against survivor teams composed of some of the very best, most practiced players in the world that are also using voice communications (and do so in very efficient ways) and have highly coordinated loadouts, strategies and tactics, it is easier to understand why in the public matchmaking environment where only around 5% of the player pool even are 4-player SWF groups (of which even less use voice chat, and of which in turn only a tiny fraction is as skilled as tournament players, let alone as practiced and experienced as a team), killers overperform. I think in a scenario of a killer player facing four random survivor players (no voice communication, no prior coordination of builds, strategies or tactics) each equally as skilled and experienced as the killer player, the game is actually favouring killers. I would expect the average result to fall around 2.5 kills. Of course, different killer characters and maps affect things, but we know from public stats that none of them favour survivors universally (even the statistically weakest killer on the statistically strongest survivor map still averages above 2 kills), and so I would assume that scales into the theoretical realm of 5 completely equally skilled and experienced players facing off similarly to how the killer-leaning universal balance scales into the competitive realm. That is to say, I would expect most killers on most maps to still fall within a range of 2-2.5 kills.
One counter-argument against previous tournament stats is that there are various loadout restrictions in place for both roles. I have never taken real issue with that given that the loadouts in these tournament matches are still entirely comparable to those you will see in an average public match (if anything they are much more optimized), and argued that the overwhelming skill, experience, practice and coordination disparity would already more than make up for loadout differences compared to public teams anyway (meaning even with 10 Decisive Strikes the average public group would still not be anywhere near as competitive as these tournament teams are with their 1 Decisive Strike that they are usually allowed to have), but still, those restrictions do make the tournaments somewhat of an artificially balanced realm.
In the tournament I'm talking about now, all those restrictions were removed. So not only do you have some of the most skilled, experienced, practiced players in the world communicating with voice chat and coordinating their builds and plays, but they also get to use the most busted stuff, such as 4 Styptics/Syringes, multiple Brand New Parts, 4 Dead Hards and Decisive Strikes. This is a level of play and coordination and of sheer stacked loadouts that you will never see in public matchmaking. ...And yet, as the following stats show, the killers were absolutely able to compete.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/D3QJSAMEUAP8/wispy-everything-allowed.png
So, we have an average of 2.16 kills, again as in all other tournaments a slightly killer-leaning result. We can see that 11 of the 30 matches ended in outright killer victories (3k, 4k), 13 in outright survivor victories (0k, 1k), and 6 in ties (2k). If we take into consideration that 3 times players decided to play non-S-tier killers (Pinhead, Huntress, Oni), we can say that outright victories are basically an exact split between both roles; in terms of kills, 40% of the time killers won, 40% survivors did, and 20% of the time they drew. That's a surprising level of balance given the ridiculous loadouts at play. It is also worth pointing out that killers overwhelmingly often lose less decisively than survivors, which is to say when the killer loses they usually at least still kill 1 survivor (of 13 losses, 12 (92%) were 1 kill losses), while survivors most of the time lose with 0 escapes rather than 1 (of 11 losses, only 3 (27%) saw 1 survivor escape).
Another argument people may have even if they accept the statistical fact that the game is balanced at the top end in terms of kills, is that it is not balanced in terms of hooks. I unfortunately did not count the actual amount of hooks while watching the matches, but I believe that hook stages can still be used to draw reasonable conclusions in that regard. So, if we assume the typical "the killer can just tunnel one survivor to death and then facecamp a second survivor in the endgame to achieve a "balanced" result of 2 kills" scenario that is often brought up to argue that an outcome of 2 kills does not necessarily mean the match was "balanced" in a "healthy" way, we would expect 6 stages to be the dominant result. Looking at the stats, we can see that of 30 matches, only 6 ended in 6 stages, or one fifth/20%. 22 matches ended with at least 7 stages, meaning 73% of matches were killer victories in terms of hook stages, and they were not achieved simply by tunnelling one and camping another survivor. This is also obvious by looking at the fact that none of the 6 2k matches ended in 6 stages, all of them had more. In fact, as you can see further at the bottom of the stat sheet, the perk No Way Out was used in 66% of the matches, and it obviously encourages spreading out your hooks on all survivors. On the flipside, only 2 matches ended with less than 6 stages, a mere ~7%. It is therefore obvious that in terms of hook stages (and in deduction hooks) the game leans even more toward killers.
Now it of course has to be noted that this goes for Nurse, Blight and Spirit, players didn't usually pick other killers for obvious reasons. Either way, at least those three can provably more than compete with even the absolute best that a survivor side can put up (which is way beyond what any public group ever will). This is something that surprised even myself. I always knew the game was much more balanced than many people make it out to be, and tournament results have always supported that, but I did still believe that given the ability to use the absolutely most stacked loadouts of multiple purple med-kits with Styptics, multiple BNP, 4 DS, etc., average kills would at the very least be slightly below 2 rather than still slightly above. Pretty crazy honestly.
In other tournaments even various of the other killers average out around 2 kills and 6-8 stages with 4-kill matches absolutely being possible, but tournaments do show that only roughly half of the killers are viable at the highest level, with only Nurse, Blight and Spirit viable enough to consistently be able to 4k, Twins being a close contender. It also has to be noted that the map pool in this tournament was limited, and although it included Wreckers' Yard, Dead Dawg Saloon, Rancid Abattoir and Gas Heaven which with few exceptions represent the state of balance of most maps in this game, I do think there are more survivor-favouring maps than killer-favouring maps overall. A variety of killers deserve buffs, a variety of maps should be further adjusted. But those buffs and adjustments are not strictly necessary from a public matchmaking perspective - not only can killer players simply choose to play S-tier killers every single time if they so desire, but good killer players win the majority of their pub matches even with the lowest-tier killers. Public matchmaking even with MMR is simply not able to provide good killer players with equal opponents sufficiently consistently. But likewise, the weakest killers could all be buffed, the problematic maps all adjusted, without it all too negatively impacting public matchmaking balance either.
The perks used here tell some clear stories too. There are only 19 different survivor and 15 different killer perks in the total pool. That shows how limited the pool of the strongest perks in this game is - 34 out of a total 185 perks seeing use. Not only that, but if we look at how often the individual perks are being used, it becomes clear that it's really only a handful for either role that dominate: Dead Hard and Decisive Strike alone already make for almost half of all survivor perks used, with Borrowed Time, Unbreakable, Deliverance and Prove Thyself making up another ~40%. So almost 90% of all perks used for survivors consist of only 6 different ones. For killers it's similar, with Corrupt Intervention, Deadlock, No Way Out, Lethal Pursuer, Ruin and NOED being 6 perks combining for 86% of all perks used.
I do think a ton of perks should be buffed to get them to a level where they are even approachingly able to compete for slots with perks the likes of those mentioned, but I don't think that the limitedness of perk usage at the absolute top level is necessarily all too problematic. In games there always are a fairly limited amount of S-tier characters and items, and it's no different in DbD. Ideally there would be more for a more varied top-level meta, but in public matchmaking you can already get pretty creative with your loadouts without giving up much. However, the perks do tell us a bit about the gameplay and parts of it could be seen as problematic: The prevalence of DS, BT, Unbreakable and Deliverance show that camping, tunnelling and slugging are the most effective killing strategies that survivors have to combat. Maybe the game could be better if it was reworked to concentrate more strictly on getting as many hooks as possible rather than revolve around these strategies at the top end. On the killer side, Corrupt and Pursuer highlight that the early game is crucial for killers, they have to get pressure up as soon as possible. It could help to introduce an "early game collapse" phase after all, such as simply by blocking all generators until the first chase has begun. No Way Out and NOED on the other hand highlight the fact that killers are at a disadvantage in the endgame - healthy survivors hit with a basic attack can regularly make it to a gate even over large distances, and killers regularly cannot defend gates unless they happen to spawn within close proximity of one another. I personally would not be opposed to the idea of having NOED be a basekit mechanic, without the movement speed boost, giving survivors a totem counter at base at the same time. To bring Nurse and Spirit in line with a NOED basekit reality, I think making Lethal Blink hits and Grudge hits not count as basic hits would be a welcome adjustment (it would be even without basekit NOED).
Some other notes: No Way Out's popularity shows that even the best killer players expect to get into an endgame scenario regularly in even matches. I think there has to be a change in mentality of players to not consider a game lost just because all generators have been completed. Given a desired goal of 2 kills and 2 escapes, a balanced match obviously has to see all generators get finished. Not only that, but since killers can almost always all but guarantee 1 kill in the endgame, a balanced match much of the time is expected to see all generators get finished with at least 3 survivors still alive at that point. Food for thought.
I was surprised that Circle Of Healing didn't see more play. It goes to show that other perks are more valuable if you just bring a med-kit. The standard build for most teams was: 4 DS, 4 DH, 2 BT, 2 Deliverance, 2 Unbreakable, 2 Prove Thyself, with everything else being "tech" variations, and Circle not even being a popular tech (only brought in for 3 matches of the 30).
The problematic add-ons are definitely still problematic: Nurse's range add-ons, Spirit's Mother-Daughter Ring, Blight's Alchemist Ring, Brand New Parts, Styptics, Syringes - these are all blatantly overtuned, and particularly the survivors' ability to bring 4 overtuned add-ons is ridiculous. I would even say it's precisely the ability to bring multiple that makes them a problem - if random survivors only bring 1-2 of these (which is already fairly rare), their impact potential is mostly alright. I think SWF groups should have perk and item limitations in place, such that they can only bring any perk or item/add-on at most 1 time. The killer add-ons should simply be rebalanced.
Moris are still the most balance-relevant offering in the game. Without map offerings, survivors in this tournament usually burned Petrified Oaks, and their impact on the matches was moderate at most. The Ebony Memento Moris that killers usually burned on the other hand consistently made much more of a difference. Bypassing any and all rescue mechanics (DS, bodyblock and sabo plays, pallet and flashlight saves) as well as saving time and holding positions particularly in the endgame turned out to be crucial at various points in these matches. That said, I still think moris are in a fairly good spot now.
Final note: The finals of the tournament are actually still to be played out. They will happen next weekend, so keep on eye out on the stream I linked.
Some killer perks banned would be used.
I am sure we would see Lethal Pursuer, Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance. Not sure about others, but Coup de Grace can work too for extra kills.
I am suprised noone used Deadlock, it was banned for pool 1 only.
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@gendoss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2728518#Comment_2728518
No actually when everything is allowed with no restrictions killers had a 2.65 average kill rate meaning that it's slightly killer sided.
I even linked you results... how the hell did you manage to get even this wrong.
Just start using correct numbers, or don't use them at all.