Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1816201#Comment_1816201
Yet he's not overpowered, even mclean said he didn't feel competitively freddy was overtuened, which means he's getting hit for the same reason as his first version..noob crushing
Queue times are already kinda long for survivor. Eventually their killer changes and weakening of perks will catch up to them. I hope that mid-chapter patch includes improving those perks they wanted to improve, i think they were iron maiden, blood echo, fixated, lucky break and fixing dead hard. maybe they need improve more killer perks or something to get people playing more killer. Freddy changes are huge waste of development time and resources.
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@Janick The issue is there are too many lockers in the game. It also defeats the purpose of Twins being a killer that is in two places at once. The change artificially limits the range that victor can be used similar to the Hag Phantasm traps where going too far out with victor is irrelevant and it reduces interaction that killer has with a survivor as lockers instantly win against victor without input from the killer(a problem stated in PTB). Overall it promotes killer to play excessively defensive with little to no interest in playing offensive. The previous change was a better compromise as it gave killer an opportunity to attack the survivor and the survivor the opportunity to counter-attack victor.
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@Almo so that means that surge+honing stone must be an overbearing combination by that logic. The adding of basic attacks on to most of newer perks only further impairs perk from being effective and give another reason for them to be dead on rival. To me, it just feels like an attempt to make perks worse than they already are. a great example is comparing new knock out to old knock out. Old knockout had no basic attack requirement. New knockout does thus makes the perk worse as it activates less and has less application than it did before.
The other basic attacks perks that I can remember on the top of my head are like Surge, Hex:Blood flavor, Hex:Third seal, Dark Devotion, Gearhead and I think Franklin Demise, None of those seem like they would be game breaking if they interacted with killer powers.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1802521#Comment_1802521
Steamrolling as in quickly ending chases and getting hooks. Even as Spirit my map pressure isn't even close to the level of Freddy and therefore I have to accept that 2 or 3 of the farthest gens are going to go. As Freddy, I can cross the map instantly so if I'm winning chases at the same rate I'm applying pressure much faster and more efficiently than as Spirit. Like if I get a hook and see 2 survivors on a gen clear across the map, even as Spirit I have to say "that gens probably done I can't stop it". As Freddy the only time this is true is if the gen is about to be done right after the hook, and even then you can start the teleport and go to that gen to start chases with those survivors IMMEDIATELY after a hook.
Spirit's best map pressure add-ons are ring and amulet. Combined you can travel a distance of about 70m is 8.5 second. As Freddy I can cover a distance of infinity in about 2 seconds. Do you understand what I'm saying now?
You can steamroll a group, but doing so as Freddy you will find you are MUCH more oppressive than any other killer just by the sheer speed you can go across the map. Add in his really strong chase potential (comparable to Clown, who despite being a bad killer overall is still REALLY strong in a chase at least). In fact that's actually what makes Freddy as good as he is compared to Clown, the teleport. If Clown had a teleport he would be insane because he'd have super strong map pressure AND strong chase potential. Or in other words, he'd be Freddy. But even then Freddy has semi-stealth, passive built in slow down, and semi-passive anti-BT.
Sure, that is just standard kill pressure, not steamrolling. steamrolling is pretty strong word, glad we cleared that up. Freddy teleports are clear point A to B. The map have finite size so the term infinity sounds like exaggeration. Spirit's phase walks are anywhere between 1-70 meters and her movement application both work for gen presence and the chase. she ends chases very quickly with good reads. her power is very versatile. Freddy power is not as versatile as hers. he is very linear and somewhat predictable paired with a somewhat weak early game. Freddy's mid game is his strongest suit which is why you did not struggle later in the match but Freddy is type of killer that is suppose lose hard early which is fairly ironic as his kit was designed to prologue the game. Point being that freddy is not exactly as indestructible as the kill rate would suggest. I am not denying that Freddy tools are effective but I'm saying that his tools are good benchmarks for what 115% killers need to be successful. I feel like it might lower standard of future killers though I would like to keep an open mind with that.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1800101#Comment_1800101
Yes I consistently 4k as pretty much every killer, I must be bad at killer in general. Yet of all the killers I try the LEAST with Freddy and still win convincingly. When I can literally throw the first half of a game against a 4 stack of good survivors on a survivor sided map and STILL almost make a comeback then Freddy is indeed too strong.
"Even in professional tournaments such as NHL hockey league, there are star teams and bad teams."
Yea, and any one of the "bad" teams will still demolish a team made of random people that don't play together. Go play some tournament matches in something before you speak about this. The mentality of a competitive player is way different than that of a casual, and when you play in a tournament setting you'd realize this.
And I never said they were good players because they played in tournaments. That's just another checkmark to them being good. I've know these guys over a year at this point and we play together regularly. I know how good they are. You can dismiss it all you want but I guarantee you would get 4e'd by our group if we were playing sweating. That's how literally 99% of our tournament matches go. Lo and behold the only killer that actually ever killed all of us, more than once mind you, was Freddy.
Perhaps I misunderstood your vocabulary but the term you used was "Steamroll", I could be misunderstanding the term but steamroll implies that you are dominating your opposition, like lately I've been playing a lot of leatherface and getting situations of 2-3 man slugs where i am decimating opposition from my experience, and those games, they're pretty one sided with like 4-5 gens, so when you said "3-4 generator are getting done" on other killers that you claim you were steamrolling, it just sounded very strange because being down to 1 generator made it sound like your on brink defeat, yet you claim of steamrolling with everyone else. It makes little sense.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1799605#Comment_1799605
"Bloodlust is instantly reset upon placing a snare."
It's not you can try it. I literally get Bloodlust while placing a snare sometimes still.
" in fact one of most common strategies to save people from hooks in end game(at least for SWF) is to purposely take a hit to put killer recovery"
Yea it's called a trade and it's done to save the guy on the hook from death. The problem is it's kind of a one time thing if the killer is camping, then you'd just end up trading until you are all dead. You need BT in some instances to get out of the trade vacuum. BT doesn't work against Freddy and therefore all you do by saving in his face is trade hooks and lose Benevolence (because he will down the guy right away). Now he has 1 hooked (you) and another slugged (potentially another hook if DS was already used or something). Trust me if I don't want someone to be saved as Freddy I can make sure it doesn't happen. You will both go down.
"Lastly, All slowdown memes have been dractically weakened to obilivion"
They haven't actually. They are weaker than before but I can assure you that the slowdown is still real. As any other killer in a normal game, even when I steamroll, at LEAST 3 or 4 gens get done. As Freddy survivors are lucky to finish 2 because I run a rope and Thana, and I have Pop to negate any progress they make easily.
"Lastly, Tournament team do not mean good, it just means competing for something."
Spoken like someone that never played a tournament game in their life, for any game.
"Nobody really fears Freddy but everyone knows he had opportunity to win if he plays his cards right and his opponent messes up. It is what balanced killer look like. Billy used to be that."
Yet he has the highest kill rate at all ranks AND red ranks by a wide margin since his rework. I think people don't fear him because 1) how he used to be was a joke and they never got over it, and 2) they are too busy worrying about Spirit and Nurse to care about Freddy.
Also LOL at "only STBFL can beat SWF". Right yes, this one perk is the thing that gets the win against players on comms.
If you going to respond, at least try to read my comment properly
1) There is no where in my comment where i stated that STBFL beats SWF. After re-reading it, the word "this" refers to bodyblocking which i describe can be used to save anyone on a hook without hook trading and without borrow time against non-instant down killers when properly executed. The reason i bring up the perk is because perk allows you to recovery from hits quicker, you will see that it is exponentially harder to save a person from a killer with 8 stacks STBFL than without the perk in the EGC. Saving people from a hook from freddy is no different than what it would be if it was wraith and this becomes a lot easier if you have perks like Adrenaline proc on the hook etc.
2) It just means your bad at other killers. The amount of generators that gets done is based off skill level of the survivor and how good their coercion & looping skill is. Like all perks, they do help contribute to the win but do not define the win. if your "steamrolling" as you say, than you should be winning quite hard regardless. that being said, Haddonfield is known to be very strong survivor map and if the team is good, surely they could easily handle Freddy blind and "steamrolling" good players on Haddonfield just isn't a thing for a variety of reasons.
3) Even in professional tournaments such as NHL hockey league, there are star teams and bad teams. I was actually in a local tournament for a different game where i won like 100 dollars but not for DBD. There is always star players that often elevate their team to next level in all competition.
4) The snares part looks like a bug like many other bugs that come out every patch but I'm unaware irregularity so no comment.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1797590#Comment_1797590
1) The cooldown is faster when people fall asleep, which happens passively. I literally never feel like I have to wait for my teleport, it's always ready when I need it.
2) Well they didn't do a very good job because you can still totally get bloodlust while placing snares. It doesn't reset the bloodlust timer it merely pauses it, so if you spend 3 seconds placing a snare you get bloodlust 3 seconds later than normal.
3) The lengths survivors have to go to avoid being put into DW in order to use BT almost completely negate any benefit from BT. All it takes is for him to hit you, now you can't give BT. That means no hook trading. That means Freddy can camp and ensure you never get BT. It's not at all hard I do this kind of BS all the time if I want to play like a dick.
4) 12% slowdown is quite a lot. On a gen thats 80/(1-.12) is 90 seconds. You added 10 seconds to the gen JUST from being asleep. Add in another 20% from Thana and now it's 80/((1-.12)*(1-.2) which is 114 seconds to solo a gen. Now add in Pop, every time he gets a hook he can almost definitely get Pop on any gen he wants. That 25%, or base 20 seconds is now 20/((1-.12)*(1-.2) which is 28 seconds. He gets an extra 8 seconds of time off the gen because of how Pop, Thana, and Rope/Chains interact with each other. I regularly win games with no more than 2 gens done, and usually I stop pressuring gens hard after someone dies. Literally not even a contest to stop gens.
5) He is a stealth killer. If you are awake you can't see him past 32m, and he disappears randomly between 32 and 16m. When you are asleep his lullaby is non-directional and non-range, so you can only tell how far he is by physically seeing him. It is super easy to sneak up on survivors, at least getting close enough so that they cannot run very far once they realize you are there.
He is quite OP when the killer knows what they are doing and how to exploit all these little mechanics he has to their benefit. He has more tools in his base kit than some killers have with add-ons COMBINED with another killer. It's ridiculous.
I think its becoming a bit more apparently how little credibility the post has. I'd imagine a player who "mains" or one tricks freddy would understand his own game mechanics. Bloodlust is instantly reset upon placing a snare. It was apparently a bug in first month of release for Freddy but its been like this ever since. NO BT does not mean that you can't save people from hooks, in fact one of most common strategies to save people from hooks in end game(at least for SWF) is to purposely take a hit to put killer recovery, begin unhooking process while one player blocks the killer from hitting the unhooker, than form a kongo line where injured players go ahead of the group in straight line and uninjured players block in straight line to exit gate. Its super easy to do in SWF vs M1 killers and only the perk STBFL can counter this. Lastly, All slowdown memes have been dractically weakened to obilivion and if freddy in position to get this kind of value, He would won without the perks in the first place because your play is sub optimal. now a days meta freddy builds centered around Undying+Ruin+Tinkerer and those add-on that people use on freddy is because there is nothing really better. Lastly, Tournament team do not mean good, it just means competing for something. Overwatch had a team called Shanghai Dragons that went like 0-40, Tournament team just means competing for something, there is such thing as bad teams.
Nobody really fears Freddy but everyone knows he had opportunity to win if he plays his cards right and his opponent messes up. It is what balanced killer look like. Billy used to be that.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1795602#Comment_1795602
I've won against good survivors dude.
Literally played a 4 stack of my friends, some of the best survivors on Xbox, a few weeks ago. I got a 2k on Haddonfield (I offered it BTW), and because I was trying to meme and they were playing really sweaty (they didn't know it was me). After 2 gens popped I decided to just play normal, and I had 1 dead and my friend dead to rights but I dropped him on hatch. Had I played a normal build and played serious from the beginning of the game (and offered a map that favors killer, IDK Midwich) I could have definitely got a 3k, possibly 4k against some of the best survivors on the platform IN A 4 STACK.
So yea I've played against many good survivors.
Oh and before you say anything about me being on Xbox, I was forced into crossplay when I got my Series X and I honestly find it easier than playing on Xbox no crossplay because literally 90% of games on Xbox no crossplay are 4 stacks. It's almost not even a challenge most of the time with crossplay on.
If they're your friends and they knew you were playing Freddy on... Haddonfield, first of all they can run OoO which... is permanent wallhack on like one biggest maps in the game, like how do you even lose. Beyond that, if you know your on haddonfield, balance landing is huge cheese perk on the map in general. Sounds a bit of a phony story. Even than, I find it doubtful that they're "The best survivors on Xbox" and if that is the best, than that's pretty low standard.
Haddonfield is just an insane map for good survivors. it just has so many insane loops, like often on side houses, you can get windowed opened on 2nd floor where you can literally just watch a killer walk up the stairs into a drop down, than there's classic house of pain which can have insane window spawns with an amazing pallet, than there is sometimes crazy fence loops, loops around the house with pallets you can pre-drop ahead of the killer and loop around the house till killer gets like bloodlust 1 or 2 only to drop the garage pallet to instantly reset bloodlust. Most of the filler outside pallets unsafe besides middle street pallets. Haddonfield is paradise map for survivors. its the map that i see the most 3 and 4 man escapes on even on soloq, the last time i remember ever losing(Dying) on Haddonfield was when i was facing double iri add-on Spirit with Ebony mori. Freddy snares won't be doing much on that map and if they respect your freddy, they'll just stay even though haddonfield can probably beaten while being asleep entire time.
Freddy is good on maps that inherently have weaker loops like hawkins,dead dawg saloon, midwich, arguably shelter woods due to low pallet count. he can reliably dominate on these maps vs good teams. maps like those were balanced for normal killers as those maps either have unsafe loops or fair loops but freddy snare's is anti-loop mechanic so whatever is fair becomes unfair in his case as his snares were designed for safe conventional loops. Either way, I would consider most freddy's toolkit a bandaid fix to many bad imbalances to killer such as his generator teleport fixing big map design(for how it hurts their map pressure to walk to each gen), TR being a free alert for survivors to hold W against killers before they even get into a chase that freddy midly masks with his Lullaby, Snares for safe loop design, Add-on's that reward the killer with slower generators for injuring and down survivors quickly and winning chases. His entire kit is like everything that killer players want from a killer. Its for that reason that Freddy can be consider gold standard for a killer. Nothing Freddy's kit is inherently unfair or overturn but yet he has all the tools to succeed so it is somewhat of surprise that they would consider changing him. I guess we will see what changes about him.
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@BigBrainMegMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1793306#Comment_1793306
1 out of 100 Nurse matches ends in a 4k. Yeah, she destroys but that's that. You'll see her no more.
I see Freddy's every other match, and he mostly always gets a 3-4k. Anyone who says Nurse needs a nerf is just really bad at the game and needs to git gud.
Spirit on the other hands, Jesus Christ. She needs some serious tweaks to her power. And Nurse already got her nerfs, no one wants to play with the buggiest killer in the game.
And no, Freddy isn't mid Tier. He's A+ Tier. Just because you don't see him at Rank 17 doesn't mean the Rank 1 survivors like myself don't see him every other match.
what in the world are you talking about, Nurse is 2nd most played killer in the game... at 6.58% only losing to Huntress. Freddy is played much less than her and has been fair to play against for long time now. I kinda wish i would play more against these 115% killers like bubba,myers, freddy etc. they're really easy to beat and very relaxing to play as for survivor. sadly most of the games that i keep getting are nurses, huntress and spirits.. basically all the exotic stuff. well no worries, if you were struggling vs freddy, soon you won't have to put any effort vs freddy once they're done with him. After they're done with freddy, they'll just complain of next killer with highest kill-rate, an endless cycle.
as Reinami said, freddy is just mediocre and they're using statistics without proper matchmaking or proper MMR. If you think your struggling with killer now, just wait till it actually starts to matchmaking starts to properly match you with survivors of equal skill-level that are all playing to escape and demolish you. killer might become a very unfun but at least it will start to show real balance of DBD. Part of what makes DBD bearable is that your often not matched with people of equal skill level so many games are easy stomps.
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@NekoTorvic said:
TLDR: The Twins are an interesting example of what causes killers to adopt strategies that make survivor experience worse (camping, slugging and tunneling). When a killer is too slow to compete with how fast gens can go if survivors just hold m1, these tactics become way more prevalent.
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So after a day, people are starting to realize that because the Twins are far too slow to keep up with gen speed, the only way to play them effectively is to massively slug and camp, I haven't necessarily seen excessive tunneling.
The reason this is interesting is because it shows a point.
Why do killers slug, camp and tunnel? As much as some survivors like to think that these tactics are adopted exclusively out of malice or a massive lack of skill, I think the issue is more complicated.
Killers do all of this, because it makes the match easier on them, because the normal "patrol, chase, hook" cycle for 12 hooks is completely and utterly unviable with most killers against survivors that do gens. And that's literally all it takes them. If they sit on a thing and hold M1, most killers are going to have a hard time, some of the roster cannot compete at all.
With the survivor objective being the way it currently is, chases become cumbersome, mistakes are not afforded to the killer at all, which then creates a dilemma in the killer's mind. Is chasing this new survivor even worth it, or should I focus on taking this one survivor down and protecting my territory? Should I even try to go to gens when I know I don't have time to patrol, chase and hook, or should I just stay here in my corner defending what I already have? Should I bother trying to give everyone fair chases, or should I just try to keep them all immobilized on the floor so they occupy their teammates time and I can eventually down them all?
When killers are not confident in their potential to play normally, because the character itself doesn't have the tools to let their skill overcome the game pace, or when they know for a fact that they don't have time to play normally, they will inevitably resort to whatever tactics can tip the scales to their favor, which usually makes the experience worse for survivors, because the only thing the killer can do is try to deprive them of gameplay, instead of engaging with them in gameplay. This happens even to the best killer players, or people that are considered generally as very very good.
The Twins is a perfect example of a killer that doesn't have time to play normally. They have decent chase potential with Victor, so all they do is deprive survivors of gameplay by slugging everyone and camping.
The solution to this is not to mega punish camping, tunneling and slugging, as some survivors believe. Doing that will either generate resentment from killers towards survivors, or it will just drive all killers that don't feel they have the tools to deal with game pacing away from the game entirely.
I believe the right solution is to improve game pacing, as well as incentivize going for multiple chases against multiple people, and then we can give survivors the tools to deal with tactics like slugging, camping and tunneling.
There have been a ridiculous number of ideas people have given to resolve the issue of games going to fast, as well as incentivizing multiple chases. This is not the point of this thread. But i believe it's important to recognize the cause of certain less than desirable behaviors so we can then tackle them effectively, instead of just endlessly crying about the most obvious thing in front of us.
Now, of course, some people may think that these kinds of tactics are fine, and that's a fair position to have, but it's undeniable that a sizeable chunk of survivors are very frustrated by them, and it is true that there are killers (myself included) who would rather the game allowed them the time and tools to consistently outplay their opponents over and over again, instead of resorting to tactics that limit gameplay just to have a chance.
Just my 2 cents on the matter... if anyone cares.
I agree with this post. This is why you should not listen survivors when it comes to "UNDYING+RUIN IS OP REEEEEEEE" or "Freddy OP". Killers use these game slowdown perks so that their chasing skill gets rewarded and it allows them to go many more chases as chasing with killer is pretty fun but having issues extreme game tempo for doing so is not fun. Weakening perks like Pop goes weasel or Thanophobia(Slowing healing) and releasing underwhelming perks like Surge or this new Oppression perk or Dying light is not exactly helpful and only makes people run more uniform builds. After they wonder, "Why is ruin used 95% of the time" and its like... um maybe because perks that slowdown generator kinda suck? Killer use perks to slow gamedown to try remedy problem of slow killers that are simply too slow at getting downs for game tempo and if those perk aren't enough to solve the problem than killer will start to use strategies to cut corners.
Ethan made statement in Q&A that he is uninterested in adding new effective perks because he is afraid of power-creep apparently but I doubt the guy who asking about meta perks was asking for powercreep perks, more over he was probably asking for more alternative perk options that are not plagued with braindead drawbacks(Cooldowns, Counter-productive effects such as visual cues on stealth perk), too many conditions(Basic attack, timers,Bloodlust etc.) or ineffective rewards(e.g Furtive chase,Monstrous Shrine, Gearhead etc.) that intentional make the perk worthless. Just another one of those great mystery answers.
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All you need to know is Clown might be marginally better, Freddy going back to F-tier. Getting another Billy-level gutting. i mean... rework.
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@Sluzzy said:
A new killer that can be in two places at once, best camp machine since the Hag, and released with map updates with nothing but deadzones and it is the weakest killer. I can't help but smh.
You realize that this killer has been improved a lot from PTB? In PTB, Lockers hard countered victor. Currently, Victor now attack people in lockers but apparently this is a bug but this change makes Twins much stronger. Victor pounce is a lot better as it is no longer possible to loop around a generator as it was in PTB due to victor that movement speed pounce change. I know slugging and camping isn't exactly a thrilling strategy to go against but realistically, this killer when downing a survivor from a far takes like 5 to transition and like 20 second to walk to the survivor and like 10-15 second to bring them to a hook. The process is so insanely slow that hooking and chasing just takes too long and unfortunately, killers are going take shortcuts and sometimes, these shortcuts are not exactly fun on the survivor side. This is perfect example of why kill rates are not meaningful as one would believe as they only show the end result. With this type of gameplay, you'll be getting 1 hooked or survivors getting 2 hooked slugged. Stat-wise it might look fine but player confidence wise to win with killer might not be fine and I'm unsure how much survivor fun is having with this.
This is one killer where I can actually understand survivor using the term "BORING" to play against.
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@Bard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1777730#Comment_1777730
No, that's not what baseline Rat Liver would do. It works for Pyramid since he can hit you through/over pallets. Demo can't. If that's what it would do, that's what Demo would already be doing, because everyone already uses it every game. All it would do is let Demo have some kind of add-on diversity.
Imagine a bug where Nurse just couldn't see scratch marks. Ever. That's what "sounds broken" means for Spirit.
Pig is bad, and anyone who thinks otherwise is either a baby Dwight, the luckiest man on earth, or has never fought a competent survivor.
Pyramid's power being able to hit people in it's path would be OP... 10/10. Dodging? What's that?
I do know the survivor POV: If you know what you're doing and have a good build, you're either:
- Fighting a skilled, top tier killer who can keep up with your bullshit
- Stuck with a dogshit team who goes down immediately because they have 200 ms brain lag and don't look behind them
- You're fighting a non-top tier killer alongside a competent team, so you win
This game is heavily unbalanced. Always has been.
And don't hit me with that "oh lul you wouldn't have survived in 2016", because I was here in 2016. Miss me with that #########. I remember Darkest Moonlight Left 4 Dead Blendette. I remember most maps having an infinite. I remember double bus window. I remember double junk pallets. I remember instant blinds and permanent, map-wide sabo. I remember We'll Make It + Self Care healing to full during the killer's attack CD.
Killers being stronger than they were in that train wreck after four years doesn't mean they're balanced now.
This entire post is hilarious because of how true it is. What I am majorly disappoint in is how out of 9 consecutive chapters, we have not received a single decent universal killer perk since the plague. Not a single one. Only thing we received is Undying, a perk to make Hex:ruin less garbage and keep every other hex perk... pointless gambling. I hope we get 1 good universal killer perk in 2021. Just one. The game has always been survivor sided, so in that sense, nothing has changed between 2016 and 2020. Still the same game.
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@Bard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1780883#Comment_1780883
This is either willfully ignorant or a lie.
Power Struggle is deactivated when it triggers successfully
Deactivated does not mean disabled. Its like... Mettle of Man. If you take 3 protection hits, Mettle of man activates and you ignore the next hit that would put you in dying state. after that, your aura is revealed to the killer until you are put in the dying state, after that. the perk deactivates meaning it resets. you can activate Mettle of Man as many times as you want per trial. Its the same with Power struggle, It can activate as many times as it wants as long as conditions are fulfilled.
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@Bard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1777813#Comment_1777813
- You can use it an unlimited number of times (due to a bug, but one that wasn't mentioned as a "known issue" in either the PTB notes or the "Design" dev post).
- The only condition for using FF+PS is that you go down under a pallet and they can't pick you up immediately. If somebody is hovering around you when you go down, the killer's options are (A) chase the guy off before picking you up and getting Power Struggled, since it really takes no time at all, or (B) pick you up quickly and have a normal pallet save happen. The only counter to that is BLOOD FAVOR, and if your only hope is something that weak...
- Using FF+PS can be run alongside DS Unbreakable. It has disgusting synergy with both DS and Unbreakable, meaning a build of DS+Unbreakable+FF+PS is entirely valid and completely overpowered.
It is not a bug. there is no where in perk description where it says perk is disabled after use. In decisive strike description, it literally says that the perk is disabled after a fail skill check or use. All the perk says is that it deactivates after you drop a pallet from a single pick up to a hook. Its so you are unable to wiggle for like 25%, get hooked and than use previous 25% to activate the perk on next down.
Power struggle... is a perfect example overpowered SWF perk that ineffective for solo queue. Flip flop+Power struggle is not really that good for soloq purely because nobody will know if you have this perk equipped, however this perk borderline oppressive for SWF. Reason being that its really easy for survivors to threaten pallet saves and flashlight saves by simply existing near a pallet and that is super easy for coordinated teams to have a single or even two players following the person being chased. Its like perfect lose-lose situation for killer, if you pick them up, they get pallet saved and if you do not do it within 15~ seconds, than that person is impossible to pick up. Effectively this perk combination hard counters 4 man slugging as these two perks are... like an infinity use version of unbreakable. SB/DH+DS+Flip flop+Power struggle can easily be a meta SWF build. Time will tell for how unfun this will be to face or how popular it will be if at all.
I guess its purely ok when survivors can create lose-lose situations for killer its not ok when the killer has anything mildly effective. no bias at all.
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I have feeling that when clown gets changed, it will be something Wraith add-on rework where Clown will still be... really weak and really easy to beat. I hope I am wrong but I have feeling it might be like that purely because some people think he is good at chasing and perhaps... that might be clown's greatest downfall. A killer that should be good on a chase in paper but it never really feels that way in game.
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@Blueberry said:
I was expecting a lot more improvements that they just didn't get. This killer is gonna get bullied really bad. This is probably the weakest killer they have released in quite a while.
They're essentially gonna have a 45 second cooldown on their power every time they use it. This is gonna be abused so hard.
they should reduce the timer to 25 seconds and apply aura-reading as soon as Victor jumps on a survivor. That would help resolve the issue. I have feeling that locker will still hard counter victor because victor will be next to a locker so teammates will just kill victor similar to how people sometimes save teammates from trappers traps. SWF bully ego is going to be through the roof.
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@gatsby said:
As a Rank 1 Killer player, I believe that removing bloodlust will help the overall health of the Killer roster.
In my personal experience, stronger Killers like Spirit, Pyramid Head, Deathslinger, Freddy and Huntress rarely ever get in scenarios where bloodlust is needed to secure kills because their powers are strong enough that they usually come into play during chase.
While weaker Killers, like Legion, Ghost Face, Wraith, Trapper and Clown all frequently need to bloodlust to secure kills because their powers have more glaring gaps and weaknesses where they can’t help at loops.
Removing Bloodlust should be a great way for the Devs to collect data on the weaker Killers and start to prioritize reworks and buffs. Because the Killers that suffer with Bloodlust removed will become super obvious during the test and should rise to the top of their list if they want to balance the game with Bloodlust being removed in the future.
This sounds like a troll post. Killers that abilities that work in chase never reach bloodlust because their ability resets bloodlust(e.g Nurse). Weak killers that have no chase ability always enter bloodlust because their chases are too long. All that bloodlust removal will do is expose weaker killers even more and it will make survivors who are good at looping stronger. The reworks for freddy and Bubba took 2 years. They got no reason to change anything really.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1760883#Comment_1760883
As to why we didn't do this on the PTB:
- Only a small fraction of people opt into the PTB, so we would get far less data and it wouldn't reflect the entire community well.
- Because of the above, ranked matchmaking has been disabled on the PTB for a long time.
Beyond those, if there are other changes on the PTB, it becomes impossible to tell how much of an effect this test had versus how much of an effect the other changes had. If there aren't other changes, even fewer people would opt in just for the test.
please remove Haddonfield Myer house bottom god window, Mother dwelling main building god window and crotus asylum main building god window before doing this test. Also waiting on the fracture cowshed map rework. The test is a bit early but I do hope you remove bloodlust after reworking these maps.
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@Sluzzy said:
You realize bloodlust was added when actual true infinites existed? Maps have been totally nerfed into the ground and I am glad they are finally thinking about deleting it. Now hoping their next agenda is fixing the deadzones!
What are you talking about? Haddonfield still has god window in Myers house at bottom floor, Crotum Asylum still has god window in main building. Mother Dwelling still has god window in the main building. the last map they need rework is fracture cowshed which is farm map. Only then can they ever consider removing Bloodlust. The test is good but its too early to remove it. they got 4 more critical maps to rework.
These walls are like early game collapse for survivor, they waste 1 minute walking time based off where you spawned in the trial to break walls. Just gives free generator repair time at the start of the match.
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@Bard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1757121#Comment_1757121
Just landing a direct bottle isn't the hard part.
At close range, anybody can do it with a bit of practice.
What's hard is landing direct hits at a distance; If the survivor is more than a few meters away, it's a meaningful test of skill.
If you land an easy bottle from short range, you don't get much reward from the bonus slow, since you would have been able to hit them anyways.
It's only when there was more of an initial gap where it can make a difference.
If your already within 8 meters of someone, extra slow is not going to help you as you would hit them regardless with a normal bottle and landing far away bottles might as well be pure luck. your realistically only going to hit someone with direct bottle past 12 meters if they're standing still such as unhooking a survivor.
A better reward would be that hitting a survivor with direct bottle toss would make it that hitting a healthy survivor does not grant them a 2 second sprint burst within 5 second window. It would give clown a mini-version of redhead pinky finger in his base kit and he would be only killer uniquely that could remove one of the benefits from being healthy as survivor.
Your suggestion is too close to Doctor and I do not think it would really fit him. Clown needs to find his own identity and all killers should try to be a different as possible from each other. We will see what the rework looks like in the end.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1749817#Comment_1749817
I’m not disagreeing with you that popularity is correlated with effectiveness, I even said that’s why the pick rate is also included in these charts, Kill rate though is also correlated with effectiveness, probably even more than popularity since popularity is also influenced by availability, word of mouth and aesthetics. For example Huntress is the top pick by a fair margin, she’s played also twice as much as Freddy, and the degree to which her percentage is so much higher than everyone else is partly because she comes with the game so anyone who wants to play her can. Hag is one of the lowest pick rates even though she’s usually considered pretty strong on popular tier lists. And on the flip side Legion is the fifth most popular character because they’re fun to play, even though their kill rate is average and most tier lists put them at the bottom slot in effectiveness.
So while kill rate isn’t everything neither is pick rate. Just like you can’t call extremely popular killers “trash” without strong justification you likewise can’t just call killers with strong kill rates trash without strong justification.
All killers face “bad survivors” in equal numbers so that isn’t a good explanation for a high kill rate. What could be true is that Pig’s stealth and traps happen to be more effective than usual against average survivors with average situational awareness but that strong survivors with strong awareness are less susceptible to being ambushed by Undetectable killers and are less likely to make a mistake while under pressure from a trap. I could see that being a factor for why Pig’s relative kill rate is even higher on the All Ranks table than it is on the Red Ranks table - she may be extremely good against low and mid rank survivors but not so good against red rank survivors and its her high ability at the median of the spectrum that gives her a high average kill rate overall. To really verify that though I’d want to probably see a similar table which shows games with only red rank players included. If that table had an even lower relative kill rate for her than this one it would be additional evidence for that hypothesis.
I think the tools that the killer has on paper and confidence to play said killer and be confident at winning matters way more than what the kill rate is. I do not think that anyone puts Pig S-tier or 3rd best killer in the game. I respectfully disagree that Kill rate has higher correlation than pick rate for how good people think a killer is. Pig is M1 stealth killer and M1 killers are really easy to loop for experienced players. Her high kill rate is mostly related to her simplicity. Any killer can get a lot of kills if your good at said killer, but not many can compete against good teams and the ones that get selected a lot are often those that have best chance to do so. Pig is not one of those and I don't think among stealth killers any of them are really strong or particularly difficult to beat.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1749067#Comment_1749067
Fyi that chart is the older one, here’s the new one the devs showed off a few weeks ago (Pig is 3.32% pick rate among Red Rank killers).
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0UL157TTWQNC/bildschirmfoto-2020-10-22-um-13-30-19.png
As far as pick rates, like you said they’re an indicator of popularity. Of course popularity isn’t actually direct evidence of how good or bad a killer actually is, but hypothetically a popular killer would tend to be better than an unpopular one. (And I’m sure that’s a main reason why both kill rate and pick rate are shown in the charts.) Pig does have one of the lower pick rates, although honestly most of the pick rates are in roughly the 3-4% range and she’s right in that pack so she’s not “unpopular” as much as “not as popular as the most picked killers. Basically among licensed killers that you have to spend money on Pig, Ghost Face and Meyers are essentially equally popular. Pyramid Head, Leather Face and Freddy are more popular than those three and Demo is the least popular licensed killer.
your missing my point. Strong killers are almost always popular regardless of their killrate. There is no such thing as "poor pickrate" strong killer. that stuff almost... never exists. if something is strong, it will get played a lot because people believe that they can win with said killer. I was using old chart to illustrate this aspect for how pickrates have way more meaning than kill rates with recent killer reworks. most of popular strong killers are between 5-6%. pigs is bottom of the barrel. I do not think that licensing plays that big of part in their pickrate. Freddy is licensed killer and he gets play a lot, Same for Bubba. When Bubba was worse, he was played less as seen in the previous chart. You can pretty much say that their popularity is mostly their strength. Strong killers are generally speaking... fun to play. Weak killers not so much and thus you will see them get played less.
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@dugman said:
Anybody claiming Pig is the weakest killer needs to follow up by explaining why she has the fourth highest kill rates among red rank killers. Obviously kill rates aren’t the only way to measure effectiveness (e.g. Nurse has a low kill rate because of her extremely steep learning curve but has a very high potential) but they also aren’t meaningless in that a very high kill rate is difficult to rationalize if a killer is “weak”. What objective evidence do you actually have that Pig is the weakest killer because the circumstantial statistical evidence in the data contradicts that.
p.S. She was second highest on the All Ranks killer chart for reference. Which could indicate she is particularly strong against average opponents compared to higher rank opponents who are more situationally aware of stealth killers and possibly less intimidated by the traps.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0UL157TTWQNC/bildschirmfoto-2020-10-22-um-13-30-19.png
play rate way better indicator for what people think about said killer. Remember how people used to think Billy was strong? In 2019, he had pick-rate of nearly 8.5%. In 2020, His pickrate is 3.48%, So he has lost more than roughly 66% of his player-base that used to play him regularly. Pig has about the same play-rate as Billy now. Heck to put into perceptive, many people say Trapper and Wraith are weak killers(which they are) but they rather play Trapper and Wraith than Billy in red ranks. Freddy and Spirit also used to have insane playrates, until their add-on got sledgehammered and weakened. Bubba who got reworked doesn't have a much different kill-rate than what he had before but he has a better play-rate now than he did a year ago. Over 1000 games, Pig probably just gets some head-pop that inflate her kill statistic but her kit on paper is quite bad and really only beats bad survivors who play against her stealth/box gameplay poorly. Kill rate is mostly a flawed statistic because it only tells the result, not the entire story of the game for how the result came to be. A better statistic would be average hook count as you need hooks to get kills and it paints a better picture for how well the killer does on average matches.
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@GHOSTfaceP3 said:
I think pig is my favorite killer unfortunately she’s just so weak it hurts to play her it seems the saw licensing holders are willing to work with bhvr so why haven’t we gotten a rework? Or buffs yet? And here’s a important question..when the pigs map gets reworked will we see her get changed ? At least a addon pass with a few buffs
Instead of whining, why not say what exactly you find weak about the pig? My personal only problem when playing the pig is that I do not understand why killers like Wraith and Ghostface are able to gain undetectable status at 115% movement speed while killers like pig in crouch move at 90% speed. It makes her stealth feel really outclassed compare to other stealth killers. I know people will say, just run monitor and whisper but like if half of your power is stealth, why would you be equipping perks that make you stealthy just so you can stealth as well as everyone else? Its like saying, run monitor & whispers on Ghostface, The power should already excel at stealth without needing perks in the first place. I think her crouch should just be 115% default. It would make her ambush charge also have way more application in loops.
Going by killrate stats and saying Pig 4th best killer in the game therefore needs no changes.... maybe not brightest way to go about rating killers.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/205126/the-twins-is-everything-a-killer-should-be
i must be on crack because The Twin's power is one of the worst in the game at the moment
I hope they buff the iridescent pendant add-on, I am not sure how they expected killer to capitalize off 12 seconds of exposed. Shortest exposed effect ever. Most of the expose effects last 30-60 seconds. My first impressions are that lockers are too effective vs Twin and killing Victor is really easy to kick without any punishment. Also from playing against Twin, Many people seem to miss the demo lunge, It could just be bad players in PBE or hitbox is too strict at the moment. I'm sure the killer will be better on release... hopefully. Its another Ghostface on PBE again.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1738994#Comment_1738994
I think you make her Corrupt Purge sound way stronger than it is. She is still very loopable even with corrupt given the slow wind up, down down on herself, and the slow arc of the attack. She also has to waste time infecting and then picking up the corrupt which ends up wasting way more time than the extra time you saved downing them faster with the corrupt. I wouldn't call her a permanent EW3 Myers when they don't cleanse either, she's much worse. Myers has a longer lunge and faster vault in EW3 as well as a him having a smaller TR. Not to mention Plague is also extremely tall and a full 32m TR, making her one of the most loopable killers in the game in that state without her power as well as plenty of heads up that she is coming.
I agree with your sentiment about M1 killers.
Plague in PTB never moved at 120%, what she had was the 115% while holding corrupt as you mentioned.
I agree about Pop and Thana.
are you playing plague without add-on? the add-on you should always use on plague is rubbing oil. its like huntress Flower Babushka. It will drastically improve your vile purge and corrupt purge by lowering the wind-up of it thus making it a lot harder to loop. Slow arcing is something that threw me off at the start but it ends up working out in your favor if you can master the arc, it ends up working in your favor on a lot of the loops, you can hit people even behind objects with right angle. she has some setup time but its really easy to perform within normal game loop unlike the majority of setup killers that have to go out of their way to use their power(Trapper, Demo, Hag etc.). I do not play much of plague purely because of her emblems. Otz made a video about her recently. She is definitely one of the more.... strategically complex killers. I am not really sure why you think a killer that counters all form of healing and could even counter old instant heals + has opportunity to move at 115% with a ranged attack is weak but that is beyond my comprehension.
She did move at 120%, It was definitely in one of those patch logs. I found it fascinating purely because no killer really moves at 120% with M1 capabilities. I found it to be quite unique at the time. Hope that shows up some new killer release in the future.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1738925#Comment_1738925
While I totally agree about her pipping problem I do think the main reason she isn't picked as much is more so about her strength and survivors having control of her power, not the pipping issue. The pipping issue does contribute some I'm sure though.
I'd overall say Plague is pretty weak. It all comes down to how good the survivors are at looping. Good loopers make her really bad as when it comes down to it she's just an extremely loopable m1 killer. She's probably much more punishing to low ranks that don't know how to loop yet.
In corrupt purge, she's 115% huntress and ranged killers are usually reserved to 110%. she's definitely best ranger killer on paper but like Oni is to Billy, she is not always in her power. Without her power, If everyone is broken, She's permanent infinity EV3 Myers and Myer is quite weak as being 1 hit is worthless vs good looping. The only time 1 hits matter is when your saving people from hooks and you do not want hook trades and plague gives you control over on when you can be 1 hit or not 1 hit. In the end, It is same problem as many other killers like Oni before his power, Legion, Myers etc. M1 killers will never win vs good survivor players because they make few/no mistakes at all in loops that are safe which is vast majority of them hence why the better killers always those that can spam their power and render looping ineffective. Plague is not able to spam her power without survivor control and therefore is subject to be beaten by good looping.
I mean for reference, Plague used to move at 120% in PBE in corrupt puke mode and she could hold her puke at 115% and they thought it was too oppressive. Its still hard to believe that Pop goes weasel and Thana were "overperforming perks" but you know, rank 20 balancing as they say.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1737953#Comment_1737953
The issues causing this actually effects a few other killers for similar reasons as well. They need pipping tweaks on those killers taking into consideration how their downs work. Plague is probably the most effected by this though.
The reason why plague is not picked is not because she is not good. its because her piping system is extremely messed up right now and its ironic because when they made emblem system more strict to try better reflect skill in the game, Plague was the killer released and she is the worst piping killer in the game probably purely because if the survivor cleanses, the killer get punished for the survivor healing up from fountains in 3rd emblem even though this is only way for plague to get corrupted puke and if you don't cleanse, than your chaser emblem will be practically be silver because becoming broken from sickness does not account as "hits" in chases so you get a lot of instant downs that award little in emblem system. Plagues probably only killer in the game where you can 4 man 5 gen and depip/black pip.
It has been pretty crazy that its been 1 year and half and they still haven't address the problem of Mori's and instant downs robbing killer of their emblem. Plague being worst offender as her instant downs are under the survivor's control.
from looking at her power, Dev probably think Plague is overpowered as hell considering her power is lose/lose for the survivor just like they weakened thano for the "lose/lose" situation so you suggesting changes to buff plague won't happen in a million years.
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@MadLordJack said:
Thanatophobia is a perk that gives you value by making the survivors waste time healing or face the consequences.
Or at least, that's the idea. In practice it's an almost purely psychological effect because of both it rarely being at full power and also not being that powerful even when it is. The idea is sound, but it needs to be more punishing to be effective.
There's no consequences. that's kinda the problem. thana is retroactive perk. it takes time build up stacks and by the time you do, there's like 1 gen left where 20 seconds of 1 gen is peanuts. the perk was never about slowing gen down, it was about paralyzing as many survivors as possible into a cycle of endless healing. Its what slugging playstyle is kind all about with killer like Oni and Nurse. You don't worry about gens, you were about # of survivors on the floor. if everyone healing, there won't be any gens to pop goes weasel and Ruin won't regress anything if nobody working on any gen in the first place, so the perk never really worked with other gen perks.
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delete post
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I love the idea. I thought about this idea 1 year ago and I thought about posting on forums back when Hex:Ruin got changed but I couldn't really grasp good ideas for how to modify existing hex perks in way that scales them down in strength. This idea would be far superior idea than artificial end game collapse if implemented. If these perks are limit 1 slot and you can only choose one, Wouldn't survivor need to get something like passive abilities to compensate fact that the killer is getting 5th perk slot. Maybe survivors could get their old version of MoM back if killers became significantly harder to face.
Looking at the perks, I feel like most players would just choose Thrill of the hunt to get old machine gun build or Lullaby to get a old version of old Hex:ruin from listed perks.
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@BDS22 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1731575#Comment_1731575
Getting BBQ stacks over WGLF stacks seems easier to me. Plus if I fail at killer it's on me, having to rely on random teammates is frustrating.
You don't get BBQ stacks in red ranks on bad/hard games. If your absolutely brilliant, on your toughest games, you'll hit 6 hooks roughly but if your bad/make any little error, you'll hit less < 4 and the game will be over before you even know it. Survivor if i had to estimate in term of difficulty in red rank is like maybe 4/10 or 5/6/10 if you struggle with it. you can almost run any perks on survivor really and probably be successful to good margin.
Killers used to be like 5/10 and 6/10 in term of difficulty and while it wasn't a cakewalk, it was not bad. Now a days, It feels like 7/10 or even 8/10 in term of difficulty. The games you lose/draw feel like predetermined outcomes where no real input was really given on difficult maps and other matches were just cakewalks that even if you ran no perks or add-on, outcome would been the same. Currently I just feel like the game is so flooded with Information perks on killer from like BBQ,Discordance,Whispers,Infectious fright,Nurse calling and many other information perks that will activate more than once per match but it just has no passive impactful abilities or perks that give discrete tactical advantage or that really craft any real creative gameplay that allows you to play outside the box. Most of the killer perks can be acquire through skill and experience without really equipping the perk and will not really help you in a competitive match. Its main why I find killer in red ranks not as fun as survivor. Not much room for creativity, any creativity or play-style you craft either becomes mainstream or erased from the game because its different. Any game you will lose fast will happen out of your control and any game that was going to be a win will be a win for you.
There is just this lack of tension and nail biting thrill that was present in the game compare to before. It is not exactly the loops or survivor perks but more of lack of fun in losing or winning with killer. Winning is amazing as survivor and losing doesn't feel as bad. Winning as killer is like buisiness as usual and losing feels demoralizing. Survivor just feels more fun and killer looks like its just downhill slope as there is very little risk or much progression for killer other than tune down over last yearly updates.
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@Blueberry said:
"Killer small pp build has counterplay to it.
Survivor small pp build does not. (DS,DH,BT,UB )"
^^ This. They aren't equivalent at all.
Also, what reasoning do you have for saying Undying+Ruin is "unhealthy". I would argue the literal exact opposite. It's extremely well balanced and designed.
It is very high risk, does literally nothing unless the killer plays well to pressure the map and has lots of counter play. Like seriously if that's "unhealthy" what would you possibly consider healthy?
they should buff undying by making it work with Lullaby,Third seal and Devour hope. All of the totem perks are balanced by having long chases and giving the killer little/few hooks which naturally makes you progress generators. The fact that you can cleanse totems and remove killer perks is like second chance at failure to play well in the first place. Undying+Ruin is classic learn to play issue. Survivors are too used to being bad at the chase and escaping. I guess by survivor standards, if the perk does no't do anything to help you to win, than it is healthy perk because you do not even notice it. Sounds like what 95% of the killer perks are at currently anyway.
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I'd only use Surge as a perk if the perk has no cooldown and regression was increased to 15% from 8%. Its funny that they buffed all Demogorgon perks that nobody was going to use but left out the only perk that people "Might consider" as unchanged. I bet their sales on Demogorgon would skyrocket from this one change alone.
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We have to wait half a year for them make Lucky break a permanent effect, Fixated a permanent walking speed effect, a functional Dead hard, Restore PBE version of Gearhead and unknown change to Blood Echo. Hopefully clown is less of a joke after the update.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1703543#Comment_1703543
The pattern comes from the PREVIOUS data dump where Freddy also had the highest kill rate by a wide margin, both in all ranks AND red ranks (there were 2 charts). This coupled with my experience playing as and against him I can very easily point out the problems, as my experience is pretty consistent with the data dumps.
The straight up fact is that Freddy has too much in his basekit. @TAG and @Weck can say "don't draw conclusions" all they want, they fail to understand, somehow, that such a statement does NOT mean the data is useless. They are strawmaning nothing else, and unless they have a counter point to my actual arguments they are just being spiteful.
I think your post is over dramatic, i mean the idea that freddy passive flickering while awake is equal to wraith is baffling as freddy has normal 32 TR when awake. I just think that mechanics like freddy's automatic dream world or pig traps that create secondary objectives are extremely easy to use and become like free lesser old hex:ruin. as such, your not punished as hard for failing a chase compare to other killers that have way more pressure to get value from their power. This also applies instant downs as you can get really fast early snowball going but mess up later in the game but not get punished for it because you've snowballed too far ahead for survivor catch up.
I don't feel freddy is that oppressive as his teleport both has global sound cue and visual cue and playing against snares really are not that much different from facing clown. waking up to avoid his add-on is not particularly difficult either. Freddy is fair to face and relatively balanced. His high stat are attribute to being easy to play and solo survivors playing poorly against him due to coordination required to beat him. The amount of changes you suggest are practically rework worthy and Freddy already got reworked because people said he was F-tier. To me, it sounds counter-productive to change a killer to be worse after reworking him to become better. I like old freddy more than new freddy purely because i felt like old freddy had a more hand-on approach to the game and he felt more tactical. It just feels like he lost a sense of uniqueness from his previous iteration to new one. I hope that heavy aura-reading gameplay maybe returns one day to some other new killer in the future.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1702354#Comment_1702354
It's not a conclusion, it's a confirmation. I already knew he was too strong without any data, just by playing as/against him at rank 1. The chart merely confirms what I've been saying for a while now.
Hence I provide a detail breakdown of what exactly makes him strong. Unlike the usual "Spirit not counter play what can you do?" nonsense that is IMO is just theory crafting, what I present here is none of that. This information comes from experience, and while it is subjective, the fact I can articulate EXACTLY what it is about him that is too strong and I can identify very specific and simple solutions gives more weight to my argument.
This is not how you draw conclusion about stats. what you need to look for in stats is patterns. Do you see a pattern with stats? I certainly do. All the killers that have high killrate have powers that are all about slowing the game down or speeding them up(from instant downs). Freddy & Pig are both killers specifically designed to slow the game down with dream world and bear traps. Leatherface has instant down so his chases are half as long. Doctor has snap out and two killers after are ghostface & myers who also have instant downs.
Spirit is actually statistical outlier. She's a chase killer and yet if you look at where all other chase killers are at, they're at lower end of the graph where nurse,huntress are. My guess is that Spirit's power has something to do with how its perceived from survivor point of view.
Billy,Oni and legion statistically under perform. Billy and Oni are instant down killers and if you look at where all instant down are, they generally seem to have high killrate and Legion is killer all about injuring multiple survivor quickly and slowing the game down with heals, so he's suppose to be where pig/Freddy are but for some reason falls way behind.
In any case, these statistics are not really important unless your game balancer or something. The reason why killers that have instant downs or game-slow mechanics have high killrates is because these killers generally stomp bad survivors/newbie friendly killers(On average). The killers on right have a high mechanical skill-ceiling and therefore very low margin error, so on average, they lose more often from player error. I'm curious what average total hook count is for each killer. It might show a different story.
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killrates mean very little, all they mean is how hard/easy character is to use. Huntress, Nurse, Spirit in that order considered the best killers as they get selected the most. Blight,Doctor,Freddy,Leatherface & Deathslinger are considered global average. Everyone else is under-played. I like how billy used to have triple his pickrate and 6% more killrate in 2019 and now he's barely played with significantly worse stats. Spirit is same, lower killrate, nearly half pickrate of what she had last year since her changes.
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Killer perk:
Mortal Wound:
You become Obsessed with one survivor
Every time a non-obsession heals from injured to healthy, earn one token.
Each token reduces the survivor's sprint burst by 0.25 seconds(12.5%) up to 2/3/4 tokens upon successfully hitting an healthy survivor with a basic attack.
Every time the Obsesssion is healed, Lose 2 tokens. You can no longer gain Tokens If your Obsesssion is sacrficed or killed.
You can only be obsessed with one Survivor at a time.
Survivor perk:
Architect:
Grants 20/30/40% increased totem cleansing speed. Every time a totem is cleansed, gain 1 token.
Each token Increases Skill Check odds by 3% and 0.5% great skillcheck progression for the remainder of the trial.
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@Moundshroud said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1683249#Comment_1683249
Good is a "subjective" term. We may be using it very differently. If you are saying he isn't as powerful or easy to play as some other Killers, I would agree with you. But I'm not certain I think learning to play Killer on the most potent or easy Killers is actually "good" for anyone. I picked Myers because he is the Godfather in part, but mostly because I went through and found a Killer that was listed as "Hard" in the learning curve and basic in style, i.e. M1. I think I've benefited greatly from the experience. But could Myers use a tune up? Sure. But is he the worst? Far from it.
I mean you mention him being hard to play, but his power is literally look at people -gain exposed. Its that simple mate. In term of depth, he's probably most hollow character regarding depth as his mechanics are how fast he stalks based off distance you are from the survivor and your ability to 99% a EV3. If you were to ever recommend DBD to a new player to start playing killer, The most obvious answer would be Myers because of how simple his gameplay is. Even when the game only had 4 other killers including him, He was never really regarded as "good", however his licensing was easily one of the most hyped killers in DBD for his time. Beyond Clown who pardon the pun is literally Clown in term of power-level, Myers falls in the category of potentially the runner up/worst killer in the game. Exposed isn't even a unique power and frankly most 1 shot type killers like Billy,Oni,Leatherface gain more value from their respective exposed powers and have more depth to show. His gameplay isn't even unique anymore because Ghostface exists as killer and better emulates the stalk into 99% into 1 hit playstyle.
Even when you read his in-game description, He described as "The Shape" as if he is suppose to transform and it is stated that he is suppose to become stronger and faster but he never really does that and he just stays as classic 115% m1 killer with no real power to call his own. I vaguely remember them saying something about add-on pass about a year ago but he honestly look rework worthy as he check out every box. Perhaps they forgot his existence or other stuff precedes priority. who knows?
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"FYI tier lists should use the highest capacity for play, balance should not."
The balance is reflection of tier-lists.
The other question regarding this post is, why should killers be balanced(Only be made strong enough) for bad players such that when the team becomes better, you almost immediately instant lose? on 3rd point, you openly admit that you purposely not playing at your best yet complaining that said killer are unfair. The fact of the matter is that teams like Oracle and Agony prove that survivor community needs to git gud at playing survivor in DBD and that devs need stop treating the community like little kids for whenever they throw a tantrum on every little killer/survivor mechanic. Pyramid head changes are intentional being made so that survivor do not need to play well vs pyramid head and pop/thana changes are specifically targeted at Freddy because of the stat-sheet that was presented last year and ever since than, Freddy has been bitched about non-stop until the devs just gave in their latest update. as of recently, the last thing people have bitched about is Undying+Ruin and its only matter of time until this get changed. If survivors think these gameslow perks unfun, wait until every survivor game revolves around 3 gen with instant down, Slugging, proxy hook camping and straight tunneling off the hook(with Nurse/Spirit) or Mori+Noed every game. Most of their survivor games are easily winnable with better looping play against these gen perks among all killers with honestly not that high of skill requirement and survivors could be a lot harder/more stressful than what they currently are. The balance for survivor is intentionally really casual and forgiving.
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@Blueberry said:
Honestly just windstorm and bone clapper base kit. Now he's actually quite solid.
I personally still think his "invisibility" should be actually invisible like Freddy at a distance, where his real giveaways are moving grass and his very loud grunts. His stealth is currently pretty underwhelming.
He'd still be underwhelming vs all rank 1 good players than again I consider like 90% of the killers to be jokes vs good players so there is that. If I don't feel like i am getting threatened while playing survivor at rank 1 than its always learn to play issue. Its even more hilarious that Wraith has sound across walls, a global bell sound and perfectly visible camouflage for a "stealth" killers after 3 years. I know he's balancing for rank 20 new players but like if you look other games... like dota or even league of legends invisible(Twitch), DBD really spoon feeds players, even look at new trail of torment perk, they still think that showing yellow generator is "good" game design for stealth and are unable to accept that game-sense should be part of skill-cap of playing survivor even after changing the perk. Windstorm and bone clapper won't change anything.
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@dollidahlia said:
I don't think so. Some people are gonna say wraith is op, balanced or weak bit im just looking at thisthrough a survivor and killer POV.
There are 2 things that make a killer strong.
-Map pressure
-end a chase quickly using their power
Wraith just doesn't fit any of those. Sure you could cloak and uncloak for the speed boost but will it matter?
His whole kit is countered by spine chill, flashlights and the extra long stun from pallets.
So what are the pros of wraith?
-good early game for a surprise attack
-stealth killer
And what are the cons?
-no map pressure
-stealth killer (countered by spine chill)
-can't end chases quickly (M1 killer)
-not very strong once everyone knows who the killer is
Solutions? I dont know. Every other stealth killer has something extra to their kits. Like pig gets a dash and traps or ghostface/myers gets instadowns. But i can't see how to balance him
The bane of stealth killers is the survivor's ability to heal because as long your healthy, you got "armor" vs them. This is just just an opinion but I think that all stealth killers should have access to an ultra-rare add-on that when they successfully hit a survivor through surprise attack, the survivor becomes permanently broken. This would make stealths killers genuinely scary.
Wraith All-seeing Spirit would be called All-seeing Death
Pig Amanda Letter would be called Amanda letter of Death(Applies on successful ambush attack)
Ghostface Security camera would be called Camera of Death(On mark hit)
Who knows, maybe they will release a viable stealth killer. They kinda did with Spirit but nobody treats her as stealth killer, everyone views her as legendary chase killer even though she was primarily designed with intention of stealth. another bad thing about stealth killers is that they don't got many perks that really help them. like in general the killers that are good at chase just need information and there is a lot of decent information perks for killer but when it comes to stealth? almost nothing synergies with them and they're kinda the jokes of DBD killers. I think they're even removing their ability to use sloppy and thano to keep people injured in next patch for the supposed "lose-lose" situation. Maybe they'll invent a perk that reduces healing speed per survivor injured exclusively and stealth will be a bit better than a worse legion.
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@supersonic853 said:
Your joking right? Id go and post a entire essay on the problems but otz already did a video on it i suggest you give it a watch.
Its funny how his video lists some changes but they have direct contradiction to each other. for example clown in the video says he need buffs but in the same video, he also says his add-on need nerf and at 16 meters, just try hit a bottle 16 meters directly. Survivor meta perks need changes, I.E but then lists a meta perk for survivor named borrow time and lists freddy as a problem to ignoring borrow time.
I'd say from video I only really agree with Mori being nuclear option, Keys being a nuclear option and purple tombstone.
maps are problem, but their deeper issue is related to how bloodlust works in this game and how ultra-safe both counter bloodlust and get countered by bloodlust, ironically if you were to rebalance all the pallets into fair pallets (one side being medium size and other side being short) and remove both bloodlust & all ultra-safe pallets than you'd fix maps but the issue is that some maps have to follow some sort of licensed architecture that needs to be followed and they use ultra-safe pallets to balance the map+old design tiles are naturally unfavorable towards killer purely because of the fixed distances that survivor gets from their pallet drops at holding W from various tilesets, House of pain, shack, jungle gyms, long-wall pallet, X loop, etc.. Long story short, maps will never be balanced and in some regards, they're not intended to be balanced. they intended to be random.
The other comment i have to make regarding the video is that most killers are intended to be bad without add-on's because they need to balance the game at all ranks, from rank 20 to 1 and they do this by making killer at base-kit weak because they know that new players can't utilize add-on system therefore new players will face weaker killers but in order to compensate this, they add add-on's to make up for killers lack of base strength. so in this sense, add-on allow you to have killers with multiple levels of power from weak to strong. If you look at old killers, you have trapper, starts with 1 trap, wraith poor movement speed, bad stealth, billy has very slow chainsaw, Huntress base hatchets, Myers slow stalking. I am not going to go into every killer, but take trapper for example, if you use his medium tier add-on he gets more traps and either faster setting or darker traps, honing stone to remove rng from freeing yourself from a trap and they make trapper more average, than you look at his iri add-on that now punish you for disabling his traps and now you start to see more of an unfairness-gap where trapper who is normally a push-over starts to feel less of a push-over and more of a real challenge and they used to do that with all the old killers but now their design philosophy has changed where new iri-add-on look like brown-joke add-ons and the base-kit of killers maybe slightly worse in some instances, slightly better in others. Moral of the story is that old killer design was superior to new killer design.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1643159#Comment_1643159
Oh I'm not saying they will, I'm just not gonna be overly critical till I see the definitive number. You are right though, if it holds true to their past tweaking I'm expecting a number increase that's not substantial enough to matter.
After rereading the paragraph about the perk, Its funny how they mention the perk being lose-lose situation for survivor and like killer players often complain of small PP build(DS+Unbreakable) and the irony is that DS+Unbreakable is arguably a bigger lose-lose situation for killer than thanotophobia is to survivor and unlike small PP build, Thano is actually countered by... med kits, inner strength, botany where as Small PP build is kinda uncounterable and a major reason to why some killer players like ScottJund complain about it. Personally Pop goes weasel was only as good as the killer was at using it(getting hooks) and thanotophobia is one of those perks that is better off staying weak and staying unchanged as it being strong can be overwhelming for survivors. they should went for a perk like Surge to improve rather than this one. My prediction with this perk is they'll change it, realize it's kinda too strong for legion and plague and than hopefully it doesn't go pass PTB and stays as some niche perk for builds like Renjiro's Bloody Glove Oni(also known as no power oni).
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@Blueberry said:
I'm actually pretty interested to see the Thanata numbers. If hypothetically in exchange for losing the heal debuff it gains 5% more objective slow then that seems quite decent. All depends on the number.
I think your putting too much faith into BVHR. it will probably be like 1% increase... I mean desperate measure is 14% extra to healing so if this perk was 14% extra to gens than it would be ok but that's wishful thinking. maybe they switch 4% that was on healing to gen so for 8% per stack but again, very wishful thinking. Killers only used it to get marginal better sloppy butcher and its questionable if it was even worth the perk slot for like Oni power.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1642720#Comment_1642720
The Thana-Change can be decent, depending on the numbers. And Trail of Torment also sounds quite decent, but I dont think that it will really be used.
if it wasn't obvious that they're weakening killer perks. the perk could have 10% per stack but whats the point if you can't keep people injured, you'll always be at 1 stack as this perk already provides psychology to heal even if # mean very little. I didn't even understand what they meant by lose-lose because its only 4% healing reduction which is like nothing. Pop goes weasel, another perk to help with generators, became worse. PH obviously got gutted as expected. Nothing major on survivor sided was harmed, We're gonna live forever got a nice quality of life change for players that farm blood points as survivor with it. Just another slap in the face killer patch as if playing killer wasn't hard enough.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1641830#Comment_1641830
Not true at all. Especially with PH. Watch a really good survivor and they will bait him and play around his hit. Check out the tournament where good survivors could avoid his hits.
Same for a Spirit. There's a huge difference between how long a good player lasts vs a rank 20.
you have to realize that devs are wildly disconnected between rank 1 balance, rank 5-10 balance and 10-20. Pyramid is perfect the way he is now because his ability has counter-play, but its not wildly impossible for him to outplay his opposition. Current Billy and Blight are perfect examples of disconnection where landing a chainsaw vs good rank 1 survivors or using blight power beyond traveling point A to B is nearly impossible because the counter-play is so severe survivor sided that you end up being an M1 killer for majority of the game.
Hopefully nothing big changes on Pyramid head and big stuff happens to clown as clown is... another level of terrible in terms of playing killer.
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@ZCerebrate I am not sure what kind of mistake your talking about, Bubba just revs his chainsaw if you try to unhook in end game, Huntress has fast recovery after hatchet throw and will M1 directly after so at best your hook trading vs her. Billy has instant down. I am not exactly sure why you think facecamping is healthy for the game, but its DBD. The end game for survivor is easily one of the most boring aspects of playing survivor. If the perk did exist, it would be soloqueue version of Adrenaline that SWF sometime use for 4 man.