Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922725#Comment_1922725
New DS will very much still be meta. It's still one of the better perks in the game. Not even remotely is it on the level of MoM.
Most games the killer will still be slugging them because you aren't watching them at every second to know if they've touched an objective or not. Survivors aren't going to stand there for 60 seconds to keep it active but that's not why it's being ran in the first place. It's being ran for the times you are tunneled, which if people really are tunneled as much as they like to say they are then it still should be working like usual.
I don't think so. I think killers will try to do something along lines of DS fishing. they will try to bait the survivor into doing an action that disables DS. a common occurrence in games is that people often heal after unhook. say if there is two people injured, one has ds active, the other does not but both are injured, a killer might let the person get healed as they juggle to injure a another survivor and as soon as that person completely heals, they'll go straight back to the hook to attempt to attack injured survivor who is healing other player. I think another possible attempt would be to regress a generator in front of the hook survivor in hopes they gen tap. If they don't tap generator, it means they have DS and if they do, it means they do not have DS.
This is all assuming survivors continue to use DS. More likely that they stop using it thus leading to less games having obsessions and killers slowly stop respecting the perk itself over time even if an Obsession exists because they see it being used much less in lobby screen.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922507#Comment_1922507
Every lobby already does run 4 BT's with the 4 DS's.
I don't do this "fair trade" stuff. That is flawed reasoning. We make changes so that there is balance between both sides. One side may be far enough ahead that they need 3 things nerfed while the other side only needs 1. You don't just buff or nerf an equal number on each side, that doesn't make any sense.
For the record I think all the second chance perks are unhealthy for the game in their current state and need changes, BT included.
I'd say it is not exactly common for every single lobby to have 4 DS and 4 BT. I'd say it on average, its like 2 DS and 2 BT. The new average is just going to be 4 BT and 0 DS. I'd say new DS is as threatening as current MoM. Perks that you have to "change" the way you play in normal game loop of the game are rarely ever good perks. Survivors are definitely not going to afk for 60 seconds to keep decisive strike active. They're going to be immediately go on generators or healing thus disable the perk almost instantly. New ds will be MoM, a powerful effect that is too situational to really be used.
I do agree that DS and OoO 100% needed to be weaker, so in term of their goal to gut both perks out of existance, mission accomplished but in term those still being useful in practical gameplay.... well that has ways to go.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1922426#Comment_1922426
If you feel that way then you are literally the reason the perk was changed in the first place. You were using the perk as a 1 minute immunity, not an anti-tunnel perk.
Its purpose is to protect you from getting tunneled, not a 1 minute second chance immunity for playing badly.
It doesn't need more than 1 activation per game, it will still be meta. It's that good. Old DS was way overpowered.
I reckon that one of two things will happen after the changes go live. Its either that community accepts that DS is not as good as it used to be and adapts to everyone using Borrow time and every lobby goes from 4 DS to 4 BT.
The other possibility is that DS changes become very negatively perceived and they end up changing DS in 1 month to being even more powerful than it was previously. My hope is that survivor community just adapts to everyone using borrow time so that Decisive strike just dies as a perk once and for all. It will fair trade off given that Hex:Ruin was taken away from killer but somehow, I always feel like killer will get short end of the stick in the end.
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As much I like the direction that they are changing the problematic perks. I do not think they realize that decisive strike will almost never activate in this iteration. The perk is suppose discourage killers from proxy camping hooks(staying within 20 meters) and attacking extremely recently hooked survivors on purpose to remove them out of the game as quickly and efficiently as possible. Part of what makes decisive strike so powerful its current iteration is that the timer is very universal, almost to universal making it somewhat of universal second chance perk that grants extra health states when a killer overperforms in the match. For example, you can down one person as the Oni, activate your power, down 2 other people. hook both of those people and if all 3 of those people are unhooked, they all have decisive strike active, so how is it that anti-tunnel perk(a perk that punishes killer for tunnel visioning a single survivor) is active on 3 people at the same time. Its impossible to tunnel 3 survivors at same time. Just make only one decisive strike is activated and it is always the one that is mostly recently unhooked.
TL:DR This version of Decisive strike is too restrictive, It will not get used enough, so killers will take risk to tunnel more as fewer survivors will use it because its too situational.
OoO change is headed in the right direction. The issue is that the goal of object of obsession is for it to be risk vs reward perk that provides information to survivors at the risk of being "tunneled". You will almost never see this perk in solo queue build because the risk is higher than reward. The perk is exclusively only really used in SWF and its objective is to exploit map design by giving information where the killer is going which allows survivors to mainly sabotage the early portion of the chase by holding W meaning you as killer will be spending time following a survivor for prologue period of time before even entering the chase, often visiting loops that are unfavorable for the killer. It has another side-effect of being somewhat anti-camp perk as you call out the killers exact position therefore always making most optimal safe unhook. Those are main two function it is used for.
The new version of OoO does not capture this effect. I think a better version to capture idea of a killer chasing an obsession would be:
Object of Obsession:
A supernatural Bond links you to the killer.
When a killer chases the obsession, The killers aura is revealed to all other survivors.
When you are chased by the killer, the aura of other survivors are revealed to you.
Increases the odds of being the Obsession.
For reference, I thought about giving it the ability to reveal all other survivors while in the killer chases obsessions but I figured it would be too powerful(Similar to the perk Aftercare). In order for the killer aura to be revealed, you must be obsession and have this perk equipped.
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@Blueberry said:
I think your point about matchmaking is a good one as well which is a point I've been making for a very long time. I'd also add in the poor rank reset which exacerbates this even further.
This is a big part of what also skews their statistics tremendously.
The games poor matchmaking, poor ranking system and poor rank reset all artificially cover up how unbalanced the game is.
IE if the game had perfect matchmaking, ranking and a correct rank reset, it would seem ridiculously unbalanced. We don't see this because it throws bad players into the mix of good players against good killers.
But we have MMR coming to fix this right? Not quite.
MMR will either be bad and we'll still see all the nearly exact same issues. Except we won't see them because it will all be hidden...lol..because that makes total sense right?
OR
MMR hypothetically works amazing and now the games balance is on full dumpster fire display.
Now we could look at this optimistically that now we can see the balance better to improve it. I suppose this depends how optimistic you are about this happening based on the games previous years of track record..of which I would lean on pessimistic.
BTW, solo queue is not even remotely underpowered, it's overpowered, just not to the degree of swf. Even in solo queue I am still the power role by far. The reason you have this placebo of solo queue being underpowered is because of the issues I talked about above.
It does not work like that....
player-skill works more like a normal distribution chart in statistics. Bad survivors think the game is killer sided because their lack of skill. There are more survivors that are average/below average than there are high average. Bad survivors will complain about strong killers that are above their skill-level floor. The matchmaking is the the pool of players. If the average pool of player is very low in skill level, than killers kill-rates will be high. Since there are a lot more bad survivors, that voice gets heard more where as more experienced kinda just laugh at the changes because they were not affected by it and did not think they were a problem in the first place. e.g Ruin/Undying, Billy, pop/thano etc. Its real same for killers. Its why most of them are push over but not for everyone because the skill-level is not high enough for them to be a push over for them yet. I made rough paint sketch of what i mean by that. Its just that ranking/emblem system does not track skill properly so it makes all the killers playable at rank 1 as you face a lot "average performers" most of the time.
I am not sure what the effect of MMR will be. I think rank going from rank 1 to rank 20 will do a lot more than people realize because better players will just be 2 piping from rank 20 to rank 5 and will get there in like few days where as worse players will have worse win rates so they'll get to rank 1 a lot later, but by the time they hit rank 1, rank reset will occur meaning in theory, you should not face bad survivors if MMR works properly. Its just that.... their emblem system makes it very hard for anyone depip and its easier to pip so I'd say that by the end of 3rd week of rank reset. you will be facing worse survivors like it is now so it will be like short-lived competitive season.
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@Blueberry said:
Depends what you view as “competitively viable”. IE you could play him and do alright sure, but amazing survivors vs an amazing blight you’re probably getting wrecked. His counter play is some of the easiest of the A tiers in my opinion. Where he makes up ground is in his map pressure. I wouldn’t view anyone but Nurse and somewhat Spirit as “competitively viable” because we probably have different definitions of that. I view A tier as only good against players that make mistakes and the only killer I’d put in S is nurse.
The only killers that genuinely scary now a days are Strong nurse players that have recovery & range add-on(to prevent holding W against her on first blinks) and Mother Daughter ring+Yakuyoke Amulet(Spirit has too much base cooldown/not enough speed to compete without it). Iridescent heads+Infantry belt Huntress is also super fun to play against but the issue is that survivors typically disconnect against it in solo and its so sad but admittedly, the combo is powerful.
I wonder what would happen if the game had no ranking system for survivor and there was this mode called "Super-Killer mode" where all the killer powers are like super strong and survivor would actually struggle to escape the killer. I wonder if that mode would be more popular or less popular than regular DBD.
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@musstang62 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1907356#Comment_1907356
Well said, I agree with all of that. Only other thing I have to add to the conversation - in the most recent bunch of stats released for red rank kill rates, if we ignore Nurse and Blight since they're much harder to handle, Plague and Demo are essentially tied for worst killer at red ranks by a pretty noticeable margin. Demo was 62.8% kill rate. Clown, for reference, was about 66.2%. Killer average was 68.2%. I don't think that the stats are the end all be all, but it's still telling that Demo was much lower than average there
I'm actually always surprised that more people don't think Demo is dogshit in his current state. He sounds great on paper but it just never seems to play out that well compared to other killers
Most people know he is dogshit. I do play Demogorgon on rotations at red ranks but you can clearly see his playrate is some of the worst in the game. Its not even that he is that technical given that he moves at 115% like all normal killers but his powers are very lackluster.
In response to OP post
- His shred is mediocre and often does not end chases faster than other M1 killers would
- The portals require setup time akin to trapper which negate advantage of being able to move around the map(The mobility is weak)
- The ability to use STBFL is not much of asset. Billy can use STBFL and negate the losing stacks by hitting survivors with a chainsaw as can many other killers(Leatherface, Pig) and killers with pseudo ways to damage mutiple health states such as Plague,Myers,Legion,Deathslinger and Oni can also conserve stacks. The ability to preserve stacks does not change effectiveness of a killer.
- His stealth is garbage as he has super loud footsteps and consistent global sound cues that consistently feed survivor information of his position on the map.
- He has 3 usable add-ons(Rat liver ->Shred build and Upside Down Resin+Thorny Vines -> Portal build) and every other add-on is garbage.
Overall, the power is just unrewarding to use. Even at his best, where he has a portal on every generator that grants him killer instinct and Oblivious status effect, Survivors without add-ons are easily able to remove his portals faster than he can replace & activate them and these effects are not really impactful in grand scheme. The shred at its best will punish greedy survivors at loops and at its worst will break pallets very slowly.
I think 3 changes that would be a start into making him get played more would be:
- Longer time to break portals and removal of global sound cue that notifies survivors when he teleports, Lower volume on footsteps
- Faster Wind-up when entering his portals and faster movement speed while traveling in them.
- Rework add-ons to have more impactful effects that increase potency of shred or potency of portals.
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@Blueberry said:
My biggest pet peeve for sure.
Red rank teammates and they still instantly go straight for the safest gens on the map or simply 3 gen us. So aggravating. So many people have zero map awareness.
I usually go for most unsafe gen on the map because I want to get chased. the key to not getting 3 gen often is doing generators in a line but there is no hard set rule for that reference. Like groaning storehouse. the 2 gens you want to do is the one on left corner and top corner. In haddonfield, typically the gens that least safe are Myers house(because basement) and street generator. In temple of purgation, typically the bottom temple generator and the one just outside behind temple are dangerous(because many killers often back hook you in left corner dead zone hook or bottom back hook on temple). The game is often the bathroom generator as many killers will attempt to use the game's basement and that choke point depending RNG can be very nasty. Dead dog Saloon is often the top-right corner generator and the elevated platform generator.
This game has huge butterfly effect and a lot of people do not realize that they're digging their own grave with survivor if they do not take risks at the start before the killer becomes interested in 3 gens in later game. Its not hard to beat 3 gen strategy killers but most of solo queue has trouble doing basic coordination.
The worst thing that soloqueue does though is tunnel generators. Like if there's gen of 55% progress, you'll see 3 people hovering over this gen for like 2-3 minutes playing cat & mouse with killer. The key to getting generators done quickly is not getting interrupted, while still necessary risks when the killer is fixated on the chase on unsafe generators(they have more chance to be interrupted).
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1902982#Comment_1902982
"Victor is very strong when survivors are injured"
That's the main problem. You're either injuring them one at a time with Victor which would waste a ton of time or you're expecting to injure them all by running them down with Charlotte for an m1...which is simply non viable against even semi decent survivors.
Everyone injured..sure..Victor is strong then. That scenario just isn't realistically happening though.
She also has lots of negative synergy with most meta perks too which is another side negative I didn't even mention before.
I thought about two other changes but figured survivors would complain too much about these two changes to improve her M1 killer gameplay but I think survivors would complain too much about this if it was in her kit. I thought about making that survivors that have victor on them have their aura revealed to charlotte and changing Killer instinct to aura-reading when near Victor. It would vastly improve her M1 gameplay but I do not think it is good idea.
I think Charlotte should remain as M1 killer without Victor as it gives the killer a strong-point and weak-point to her gameplay and part of playing Twins well is being able getting into that 4 injured position to capitalize on survivors misplays. I agree on perk lack of perk synergy. This is why it is in my change-list. I am doubtful anything will change in next 3 months. Killer stuff only seems to change when it is in benefit of survivor so it seems.
I guess we'll see in march if anything changes.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1902935#Comment_1902935
I'll copy and paste a list I posted on another page.
-Victors locker hold needs to be longer
-Victor shouldn't be kick-able after a successful lunge
-There shouldn't be a notification to survivors of when they swap between each other. Is asking survivors to have their eyes open really asking too much? I mean honestly.
-Why is Victor so loud? It defeats the entire point of him not having a TR.
-Victor should be re-callable immediately, why is he able to be held hostage at all?
-While a survivor holds Victor, Charlotte should have Undetectable. This actually makes survivors want to get him off.
-Survivors near Victor when he's idle or on someone should be aura shown, not a location ping
Boom now she might be close to A tier. This may seem like a lot, but that's just how bad she is.
Right now play against The Twins as survivor feels like I'm a child having my hand held. I don't have much hopes in her improvement when they look at her again in March because I just can't imagine the devs actually buffing her this much based on their track record.
Very interesting. I agree with only single change. that is locker change. I think that lockers for survivor should only be used for Juking purposes and hiding from killer aura-reading perks. I do not think that lockers should hard counter powers. I know it might bias opinion for a survivor main, but this my personal opinion. Either way I do not think it is her biggest problem but rather would be nice Quality of Life change to increase lockers by 5 seconds to discourage locker usage.
My change list:
- Reduce Victor switching time between Victor and Charlotte(3->1.5 seconds)
- When switching from Charlotte to Victor(When Victor is Idle). If a survivor is within Victor Screech radius, Reveal aura of the survivor for 2.5 seconds
- Make Lockers less effective vs Victor(View reasons above)
I would be happy with these 2 changes. If they really want to improve Twins a lot. I would recommend these changes.
- When Victor Latches onto a survivor, Applies Mangled status effect until healed.
- Release new perk that every time a survivor is injured on the team, The teams healing speed decreases by 4-5% per stack(Tier 3).
I do not really need last 2 changes but if many people believe she is that bad. Do those two changes. I am not exactly sure I want explain those 2 changes are very strong but I am too honest to not explain it. Victor is very strong when survivors are injured. It is very easy for victor to punish survivors that are not healed as he has Wraith's bloodhound perk. The twin's strategy is to hit all 4 people injured and just slug all 4 people with Victor. This is there playstyle. The only problem is. There is no way for Victor apply Mangled effect and there are no perks that embolden this strategy. This is why theses change will vastly elevate their performance.
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@Blueberry said:
Gone to one of the rarest killers to see similar to Plague.
Why?
She's trash. Pretty close to the dead bottom if not the bottom.
You could do more work with Legion and that's just sad.
Well if she is ineffective and everyone agrees that she sucks. they said in pyramid head update that after 3 months, they might revisit a killer to change them. Blight has received no changes for 4 months so I assume everyone is happy with Blight. 3 months from December 1st would be March 1st. So let's see if on Match 1st. Twin receives QOL changes to make get played more.
What do you think needs changes on Twins for them to not be bottom tier in your eyes?
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@gatsby said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1896827#Comment_1896827
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1896849#Comment_1896849
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1896868#Comment_1896868
My numbers actually make sense when you realize the perks are competing for the ONE exhaustion perk slot.
The numbers have to be higher than comparable perks because those are competing for the other THREE generalist slots.
They're broken, but are they as broken as the perks like Sprint Burst and Dead Hard that you'd have to give up? That's the real question because the Devs have really struggled to introduce anything strong enough to compete with them and I feel like my ideas could finally do that. The only exhaustion perk added to DBD after 2017 as been Head On, so I feel like the Devs have hit a roadblock
These perks are insanely broken. Some of these perks are already in the game or were in the game long ago. "Emotional Overlord" was a perk in the past. Its called We'll make it. If you played at the start of the game, We'll make it used to affect ALL healing actions by 100% and it stacked up to 300% for every unhook within 90 second window. It was so hilarious because you could self-care faster than a killer could hit you/vault a window.
Drop dead vaulting speed is compromised of 2 perks. Resilience+Spine chill. I believe developers at point suggests that one day they might change pallets to immediately stun the killer as soon as the button is pressed instead of after animation of the pallet but in the end, they never did that change. I could see this being a survivor perk one day that would 100% prevent survivors ever getting latency hit through a pallet but pallet dropping speed isn't really a statistic.
Exhaustion perks are meant to be burst impact chase oriented perks and before idea of exhaustion even existed, it used to be just a cooldown similar to perks like Quick&Quiet. There a point in time where you could 2 separate exhaustion perks like Sprint burst and Balance landing and each of these perk had their individual cooldown. they only added exhaustion so that when they invented Dead hard, people wouldn't be running multiple exhaustion perks to get multiple chase extension perks which were once rechargeable while in a chase and later weakened to be paused while sprinting.
They actually tried to have passive ability within exhaustion perks. Balance landing used give permanent 75% stagger reduction to falling. Guess what? This perk single handy created infinities in loops with elevation looping until the effect eventually got neutered.
Generally speaking, If they ever implement powerful effects such as these like permanently zero drawback Haste, they'd put in a survivor item/add-on. Historically though, these type of add-on get looked down upon such as Old instant heals or Old instant blind flashlights. Some old stuff remains like full team of stacked new Brand new parts or current keys still exists in the game though those things only reach optimal strength in swf anyway. Who knows though, Blood pact has permanently haste and soon clown will give free haste and retain his godly clown status.
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@Blueberry said:
Honestly I wish they'd scrap the amount of uses in the first place.
Just decrease the percentage and make it a permanent passive increase to your lunge distance as the game goes on.
Currently it's just a trash perk.
You'd have to ask someone who develops the game to ever rework a perk this into something usable. I think Almo is dev so good luck convincing him to change this perk.
I can think of numerous variations of this perk that could be used.
1 - Obsession perk that works like Remember Me, Every time you hit the obsession gain 1 token of 60% lunge distance, every time you hit non-obsession, lose 1 token. If he was concerned about Legion using this perk, he can put basic attack condition on it so legion can't farm tokens (no clue why this would be problem though).
2 - Works like Unrelenting, Passive increases lunge distance 20,25,30%.
3 - Works like Pop goes weasel, Every time you hook a survivor, gain an increased lunge for x seconds(45?).
Current variation of the perk. I think only one killer can really use it and that killer is deathslinger. Its because he can pull survivors towards him so he can consistently get baby swings from hitting his gun and when he hits a shot on a loop that he can't pull, he can consume a stack to get a hit but it is not really worth it.
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@GannTM said:
Badham Preschool isn’t survivor sided in the slightest. The fences make it frustrating and boring for the killer, but in terms of balance, there are a lot of loops that are fair for both sides.
Badham isn’t even close to Haddonfield, Fractured Cowshed, or Grim Pantry levels of survivor friendly.
Grm pantry is not imbalanced map. there's enough pallets where the survivor is able to loop, but not too much to the points its overbearing. The only thing to watch out for Grm pantry is that main build has mini-god window loop on first floor on main building. If they ever decide remove bloodlust, they will need address that top window as it is infinity even at bloodlust 3 when looped clock-wise. In case nobody knows what i am talking about, you vault the window on left house, than vault 2nd window on right house and depending whether the killer is rank 20 or rank 1, He'll either push you clockwise in where you can fast vault other window 3 time until its blocked or if the killer is rank 1, he'll push you counter-clockwise which forces medium vaulting left house window, If looping counter-clockwise, you want to vault other window. Pretty much all rank 1 survivors and killers know about that loop. Killers should avoiding that loop as it is of similar strength to Old Ironwork of Misery Infinity window.
Haddonfield and Fracture cowshed are just broken maps that desperately need reworking. Haddonfield has too many imbalanced windows and both of those maps have way too strong filler pallets that are completely safe. Its a good thing that most of survivor playerbase is terrible at survivor as it doesn't show in statistics.
I'd say badham is around Thompson House-level strength. Both are super strong survivor maps.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1891610#Comment_1891610
Tbh 4 man slug is never happening unless the survivors are playing like complete potatoes or the killer just completely outclasses them in terms of skill.
I agree Undying will be dead and gone from every game pretty much once the nerf comes to live. Nerfed version is trash.
Slugging is the only way killers can win against good survivors other than camping or slugging.
Its pretty reliable when I'm playing nurse or twins. in fact most of my games end up as that. I emulate that with lesser killers as well, but its not as strong because most of the other killer lacks have terrible chase potential at loops which are in complete survivor control. All the safe pallets just zap all momentum from the killers. on top of that, your required to slug continuously for very long because of the common 4 unbreakable+DS every game. I'd say for average low-tier m1 killer, 4 man slugging is on the survivors errors in loops but for stronger killers, its definately on the killer player to make slugging effective more so than the survivor.
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@Blueberry said:
I would always rather be slugged when I'm on survivor.
You will love my Twins build. Undying+Ruin+Sloppy+Dear stalker. Its literally designed around 4 man slugging. To be honest, after Ruin+Undying get erased from the game, I think every survivor game regarding high-level will just be 4 man slug oriented. It really sucks because I like playing all the killers but its not fun playing killer if every game is uphill battle that gets played 1 gen or in EGC for 90% of the game vs ultra high-level. I'm sad that that slugging will be only way to win consistently with so many negative killer patches. Oh well, so be it.
I do not like slugging as survivor purely because it shows weakness in the killer's ability to chase within alloted generator time window so in order to fix generators, slugging is used as shortcut to scapegoat an imbalanced aspect of gen speed to chase to hook ratio.
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@Mandy said:
I sort of agree that the Safety Pip isn't needed so much any more, I remember when it got introduced into the game, and how much harder it was back then to pip.
I think I would like it so that lower ranks (20-15 for example) have the safety pip, but then as you get higher up the ranks then you would lose this...however, it might all become moot with MMR anyway
The issue with MMR is that players themselves want to know their results for whether they're winning or not. Because majority of active players get to rank 1 with various different skill-levels. The ranking system does not give information for how skilled a player is, rather it gives information for how active the player is in that season. Perhaps removing safety pip would better represent skill as it would actually make it possible to lose and it would better reflect for how MMR systems generally work.
Only concern is that the survivor side might need 1-2 less emblem color because as it currently stands, usually speaking, I think half of the survivor team generally black pips even when they escape and half the team pips. Maybe survivor system would be slightly too hard without a black pip?
I don't killer has any issues in term of difficulty for getting their emblems, rather their problem is how the emblems are calculated for 3rd and 4th emblem. Chaser awards hit for every individual hit that a killer wins a chase. If your playing instant down killer, you only need to hit the survivor once but it makes chaser emblem give half the reward per chase. Powers that grant instant down such as Bubba,Billy, Myer etc. would need double the emblem points for chaser to match those of regular killers. Plague needs 1 point for inflicting broken status effect manually on a survivor. The killer system would easily work without a black pip.
I agree that safety pip should go but some modifications would need to be done both sides for it to work properly.
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@Blueberry said:
We currently need perk buffs, nerfs, reworks way faster than they are doing them.
At least half the perks could honestly be fixed with simply number changes. These are very quick changes that could be made with minimal work.
Disagree. Most of the perks that are terrible on each side will never be used in serious competitive manner because their function is straight up useless regardless of their numbers.
For example, let's take few bads perks from both sides to illustrate this. I'm going to take some of the most useless perks in my opinion.
-Cruel limits
-Territorial Imperative
-Flip flop
-Wake up
Even we hypothetically buffed Cruel limits to just block every window in entire map with zero range restriction and made Territorial Imperative have zero cool down, Unlimited range. Nobody would still use the perk because in the end, Bamboozle is superior window vaulting perk and superior chase perk and Infectious fright or any perceived Information perk will be superior choice to Territorial Imperative.
Its really same for survivor side. Wake up is late game perk that opens exit gates, even if hypothetically this perk opened exit gates at 500% speed or heck even INSTANTLY, it would still not get used because at the end of the day, Adrenaline is better late game option as are many other late game perks. Another issue with buffing numbers is that although a perk may be weak in its current iteration, a straight numerical buff can lead a perk from completely useless to completely game-breaking. For example flip flop is largely regarded as a useless version of unbreakable, however if the numbers of flip flop will tuned up such that it became an effective perk e.g 50%->90%, than the perk would straight up surpass unbreakable and make slugging for killer almost impossible.
This can be said for many other perks... such as MoM, Deliverance, Second wind etc. Some perks actually did have their numbers tuned up such as Gearhead or PTB hangman trick and we were like "yay we can use another information perk" and what happen to those perks? INSTANTLY gutted.
What does that say about dev regarding perks? They do not want diverse perk builds. If they ever change a perk, It will be because they want to Omega buff the perk into meta level and whenever they decide gut perk, its not tone down x perk, its straight rock bottom erase perk from the game. (See Hex:Undying & MoM for references of this).
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@MadLordJack said:
They're outdated. I would actually like more killers to have exhaustion addons, so long as they're closer to 3 seconds of exhaustion than 30.
Exhaust add-on are meant to counter exhaustion, as in remove it from the entire game. Demo has both a perk that gives 5 second exhaustion(Mindbreaker) and an add-on that gives exhausts you for 5 seconds when near a portal and guess what, I have never seen anyone use the perk(past adept achievement) or the add-on in 100's of game of survivor in any serious killer build. Its that bad. Blood Echo is even worse of a perk as it also requires injured status effect to even affect survivor.
In reality, all the killers should have exhaust add-on's because it creates risk vs reward for equipping the perk rather than 100% free second chance time waste. Another issue exhaust perks in general is that their trigger condition creates situational activation's of the perk rather than controlled situations of the perk(Excluding Dead hard which gives full control to the user). I think all the perks should just other exhaustion perks should work like Dead hard where pressing E activates sprint burst(Using E when Injured prioritizes dead hard, Uninjured prioritizes SB If both perks are equipped), E on during a Vault activates Lithe, E during falling to activate balance landing, Head-on has it through rushed actions already(but the 3 second window to use it is terrible balance). This gives all exhaustion perks full control over its activation and does not make one better than another in any situation.
If every killer had exhaustion add-on, than they would have a choice between dealing with exhaustion perks or eliminating them from the game. With current iteration going forward, they will actually need to weaken every exhaustion perk because those perks have potentially too high off pay off for game winning effect with no risk attached to them. So in the end of it all, they will add severe drawbacks to match their game-winning effect. So expect all exhaustion perks to have like 90/105/120 second cooldown instead of usual 60/50/40 seconds in the future if they do decide to remove every killer exhaustion add-on.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1879590#Comment_1879590
Can you use discord? I'm on the official DBD discord a decent amount. I don't typically stream much but I can probably record for it.
I could see an argument for reducing the amount of guessing in the game or adding some additional counter play to things like Spirit. However that said, as I got into a little earlier the game would need to be significantly slowed down to allow for it. Some of the things in the game that people feel aren't "fun" game play are currently a necessity because of game speed. IE camping/tunneling/slugging/"counter play". This is a generality I'm applying for a point rather than specifics so don't take me too literally here but you get my point.
There are a lot of different issues contributing to this problem though, it isn't just a couple singular things. Most have been around for years.
A lot of the issues with many of the standard killers is many of them do not get enough opportunities to create 50/50's in the game. This is large part to why Spirit is strong. Her power enables more possible 50/50 to occur during a match. In fact a lot of survivor's power in the game revolves on DENYING the possibility to get 50/50'd. People may ask, what do you mean by denying 5050's.
Take long wall with single pallet with the short side. what to most survivors do when they get to this loop? The people who greed loops will attempt to loop long wall and this gives opportunity for the killer to red glow mindgame the survivor, but a large majority of survivors will not even attempt to loop this pallet. they'll just drop the pallet immediately because they know they camp the pallet using the vantage point and the pallet is practically an infinity even at blood 2-3 when dropped. When you break it, the survivor just holds shift+W which again wastes the killers time and gives zero opportunity to mind game the survivor.
Even look at other classic loops in the game. Shack window has two very common mindgames. the first one is double back for when a survivor attempts to vault the shack window and the other common mindgame is double vault into the shack and back out when a survivor is turning around the corner of a shack. Both of these are 50/50's but I would say they're slanted 50/50's. The survivor does not need greed window nor do they need to reenter the shack, they could just use outer rim of shack wall and when a killer does catch up from bloodlust, Just use shack pallet to reset it followed by more Shift+W for another 30-40 seconds. If your teammate efficient at generators, you will not really get punished for it in vast majority of cases. This stuff exists for.... cow loops in farm maps, the fun bus in azeroth maps, jungle gyms and virtually every other safe pallet in the entire game.
All that spirit really accomplishes with her power is she has potential to counter SHIFT+W(through speed) and she counters playing safe by adding elements of risk vs reward for survivor at loops(through unpredictability/stealth). Somehow, these two aspects are apparently unfair for survivor and *lack counter-play* for survivor. If anything, a lot of survivor's gameplay lacks counter-play for the killer side. not the other way around. you would think that the opportunity to get a hit on every loop would be standard gameplay, but it is simply not. when that becomes true, then apparently that becomes a problem.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1878091#Comment_1878091
I do think it's slightly too easy on killer as well, but the main issue is on survivor. It feels almost impossible not to pip on survivor even at rank 1.
I think for killer, its only easy because many survivors are not at the level that they're rank suggests in term of skill level. If anything the killer emblem system takes away wins by giving a lot of brutal killer even when you get a 3k. I think its because they put too many extra variables that are kinda meaningless towards what is winning with killer.
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@Blueberry said:
I have played at rank 1 for years playing 99% solo. Not only is it possible, but it's way easier than it even should be. The system is currently so forgiving it's throwing people into rank 1 that have no business being there.
Here's the advice:
-Get good at looping
-Stop wasting time. The game is all about time efficiency. At all times you need to be either making a save, looping the killer, or on a gen.
If you ever aren't sure what you should be doing, get on a gen.
Even at rank 1 it's almost impossible to depip unless the killer is literally standing in front of me on a hook face camping. Any player that is even remotely decent will hit rank 1, otherwise it's a skill issue, not a game issue.
Yeah it is insanely easy to stay at rank 1 as survivor with very minimal effort. I find easiest way to pip as survivor is just aiming for 4-4-4-2 emblem distribution. if your teammates are good at looping, generally speaking,you only have stay in TR of the killer vaguely to hit silver emblem in chaser and majority of the game will be holding M1 on generators for total 2 of generators, unhooking safely+healing one health state and never get hooked since you never got chased. it will always net you a iri objective, iri survival, iri healing and silver chaser.
If your team is terrible, than don't aim for pips, just aim for black pips, easiest way to do that is get good at looping to get iri chaser emblem and save teammates off hooks, its usually enough to black pip in most cases. I don't know, but I feel like emblem system for survivor in some ways needs to be harder or re-evaluated. for whatever reason there's too many survivors that are ineffective at looping and doing generators when majority of the killer cast is ultra-easy mode.
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@Mister_Holdout said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1871519#Comment_1871519
It's like Scott said, as soon as one of the big developers decide to copy the DbD formula, the game is history.
Its not so easy. Licenses are very hard to copy without copyright infringement. Powers are also very hard to copy without copyright infringement You can't release a killer that places traps or anything related to the name "Trapper". Despite what people think, DBD graphics and art direction is very good, Its definitely top notch standards. The only reason why its not of any higher standard is because not everyone has the most updated PC/Console and it takes a lot of time to optimize polygons. too little polygon count will make something look ugly, too much might make consoles or weak pc have fps drop.
I do agree DBD has very tight and limited changes per 3 month chapter(Balance/Gameplay change wise) but at the end of the day, you have to choose what you prioritize what changes and what does not with limited staff that decides when they add program for DBD and when they do not program at all.
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@Kebek said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1869688#Comment_1869688
Devs heard complains that clown is annoying at chases but lacks everything else so they made his chases stronger. Pretty good job so far I might say.
Clown is suppose to be a chaser killer. when you face clown, you should feel like your facing deathslinger or nurse or spirit. whatever you consider a scary killer to get chased by. Chase killers should have fast chases.
Does clown have fast chases? Not really. He has to hit twice, LOS is required to landed hindered bottles and even when you suffer from the bottles, often loops are close enough to be strung together. The extra speed or should i say, lack of speed often does not change the safety level of the loop nor is it enough to hit people between loops. If you want to play a killer who excels at hitting people between loops, Play Blight, he moves at like 230% speed. This isn't even talking about large amount of negatives that these developers put in killer kit which in clown case are Reload mechanic(Limited bottles) & weird activation times to use his speed up.
At best clown makes eat pallets faster, at worst power does nothing and is active sonar OoO for non-swf teams from all map-wide screaming. Clown's chases are just too long for a chase oriented killer. He's only good vs inefficient survivors at gens and survivors with bad routing. Its only reason why on PTB he looks good because survivors do not really try hard in PTB but guranteed that he still be same joke he is on live, perhaps worse given removal of Undying+Ruin and worse add-ons like solvent jug.
I propose change on forum at one point that if clown hit you with direct bottle while intoxicated, the follow-up hit when healthy does not grant the survivor a sprint burst. It would give some much needed lethality and give some fast chases if the survivor is really out of position as base-kit. It would also reward clown for getting direct bottle hits rather than just throwing bottles arbitrary at survivor and hoping for the best.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1865756#Comment_1865756
instead of reducing your terror radius which is nearly a useless effect besides that situation the perk should give reward you after focusing on whoever is the obsession. Like instead after you get a certain amount of tokens say 4 or 5 whoever is the obsession is exposed but to make it more fair they only become exposed after being the obsession for 60 seconds and of course once your obsession dies you lose all tokens.
Also furtive chase was made many updates ago, if a perk with great synergy was planned for it then it would have been released by now.
Old freddy had this thing where he could read your aura if you were not in TR and he had an add-on called Red paint brush that reduced his 24 TR to something really small. If you had this perk at 4 stacks, he would be able read your aura across walls like pre-nerfed old freddy.
I'm pretty sure intention of this perk is to progressively become a stealth killer in the late game like ghost face himself but whoever balances these killer perks probably did not like the perk idea and gutted it to only work in a chase making entire perk almost worthless, even put a second negative that tokens disappear after Obsession is killed. Ironically, all they would need to do to make this useful is just make it reduce TR all the time and remove all tokens disappear after Obsession death like STBFL.
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@Damarus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1863245#Comment_1863245
Well, that depends on the fact that survivors don't have powers or anything that makes them differ one from another. Killers, on the other hand, have powers and add-ons that can make a huge difference. Of course they NEED not to be equally strong without add-ons as they would be with them. If you take something strong enough and make it even stronger, you are basically just giving that side a free win. I am not one to advocate for SWF either, in that regard. And yes, I do realize that Undying is a Hex. Do you, instead, realize that Hexes are meant to be TEMPORARY, and not last a whole game like it used to be on many cases? It works on token totems now, so that is a buff. And as much as it giving auras of survivors near dull totems instead of hexes doesn't really make much sense, nobody wants to play a game with a killer that will drop a chase and camp the totem as soon as he learns that one survivor is cleansing the only way he heas to play the game. Again, if you really struggle without Ruin, you can play with PGTW too, it's not that big of a deal. You wil just need to learn how to play properly, instead of overrelying on another perk that was doing the work for the killer. I mean, if you look at that, many killer perks basically play the game in the killer's stead. BBQ and Nurse's find survivors before YOU have to, Ruin kicks gens for you, Corrupt Intervention blocks gens for you, Infectious Fright makes survivors scream to find them before you do, Spirit's Fury breaks pallets for you. And this is just objectively true. Sad truth is there aren't many killer perks, like PGTW, that actually require the killer to be good. Most perks are centered around making the game much easier, and that's it. Killers want it to become way easier than it should be for them. I am not saying SWF is ok, nor am I saying that DS+UB is ok, but still. DS isn't even close to that big of a deal killers want it to look like. You don't want to take DS? Slug them, 60 seconds isn't much, and it won't really be 60 seconds if you were not camping/soft camping in the first place. If you don't camp, next time you find that survivor who still has DS, the duration will probably have expired when you down him, or he won't have enough time to revive himself with UB before the duration expires and you pick him up. Better yet, even SWF survivors are still gonna try to have their precious little friend not waste UB, which means they are going to try and revive him. Which means, pretty much nobody is gonna be working on gens. Stop pretending like survivors have all the power, when it all really comes on you not knowing what choices to make and when.
your acting as if Undying+Ruin automatically wins games without any input from the killer. Undying+Ruin rewards the killer for ending chases quickly and applying generator pressure, the survivor buzz word. It is surprising that they change a perk that discourages the killer from camping hooks and encourages them to push people off generators. It is even anti-camp perk similar to BBQ. If ruin lasts entire game, Its because survivors did not find totem or were not purposely searching for it and have decided to ignore their secondary objective of totems. There is also a bug currently in some maps where totems positions are not cleanable.
It is not like it is impossible to complete all 5 generators with ruin up with a good team. Ruin+Undying change will not affect good killers unless facing very strong teams but those teams were hard to beat even with the perk combination. Its just negative change overall for the game as it means survivors do not really adapt to killer perks while killers always adapt to survivor perks and if anything strong shows up in the future, expect it to not stay for very long.
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@Damarus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1862824#Comment_1862824
I never specifically said those perks are god tier, I just listed perks that are actually good/usable, depending on the situation. I wouldn't be using Franklin's Demise, for instance, unless I get a group of sweaty survivors with 2-3 flashlights. Or I can use Lightborn, instead. Both of those perks make it so survivors waste their time doing something instead of healing or going for gens. There is not a single survivor who brings an item from outside the match that is not going to try to get it back asap, if you have Franklin's. You just take advantage of that, since killers can also see the items survivors will have before the match starts. And saying that nobody uses those perks is very far from being true. BBQ coupled with Iron Maiden can make a pretty frustrating combo, especially now that Iron Maiden will be getting double the duration. Dying Light is perfect to slow the game down even more, especially on some killers like Plague. Remember Me is an end game perk, but still pretty useful if you know you're not gonna be able to prevent them from getting at that point. All you have to do is hit the obsession. If you also happen to kill the obsession, nobody is gonna be able to bypass that interaction speed slowdown on exit gates. Thrilling Tremors, as much as it is not often used, is a good perk to gather intel on survivors' location and which gens could need to be defended in the immediate future. Blood Echo? You saying that having the ability to completely deny exhaustion perks, which most survivors are gonna have, is not good?
And well, talking about overgeneralizing stuff, people are dishing out opinions on an Undying nerf that was well-deserved and not that horrible as killers are making it look like. It was meant to keep Ruin active for longer, not forever. I mean, if you need to rely on having Ruin active for the whole duration of the match, it can't be said you are a very good player, tbh. Oh, and I also forgot about NoeD. That perk disgusts me, so I didn't even take that into consideration (and before someone starts calling names, I used to be disgusted by DS too and refused to use it. But nowadays the unending tunneling makes it mandatory, if you want to, you know, PLAY a videogame).
you realize that Undying is hex? right? The purpose of undying was to created secondary objective in cleansing totems dull or lit and to defend other hex in being removed early in the match. New version Undying is abysmal. first of all, if it gets cleansed first, the perk is dead slot, not only that, it does not even give you information to defend lit totems, it only gives random aura reading on dull totems and if your other hex is cleansed, Undying disappears so basically, when Undying got cleansed first, ruin was going to disappear shortly after, now its like that every single game. Completely dead perk. you might as well run haunted grounds or another hex perk over Undying or just never use hex perks in general. No point in using half a build on Hex perks if they are not even rewarding and get disabled in first minute of the match by spawning on them.
Even if people hypothetically find another set of meta perks and it ends up being powerful... like who knows Devour hope+Undying, they'll remove from the game after survivor complain about it and if its bad than nobody will use it so whats the point even?
Killers are like bosses in MMO's, Bosses in MMO without buffs are really easy to take down. Killers have add-on and perks which considerably make them stronger. Survivors on other hand only need good chases, teamplay and fast generators and you do not need any perks to achieve these metrics. Survivor perks just make them that much powerful and more difficult to beat but a lot of survivor's strength come within base game, not really their perks. Its not really true for killer, a killer that is perkless and add-on less is very easy to beat, Just look at perk less and add-on less Wraith or any killer really.
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@Damarus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1858544#Comment_1858544
Killers not having good perks? You're kidding, right? As much as survivors can have broken combos that, luckily, only work once, killers are nowhere near having bad perks. There are WAY more useful killer perks than there are for survivors. Aside from gimmicky builds, survivors have DS, Unbreakable, Dead Hard, Borrowed Time, Iron Will and We'll Make It. Every other perk is highly situational at best. Adrenalin works only if they manage to get to the end game (being a wasted perk slot otherwise), pretty much every exhaustion perk will never be more useful than Dead Hard, which only works when it wants to work anyway, Inner Strenght will be useful IF you manage to find and cleanse totems and IF those totems were not cleansed already (and it isn't even stackable, which means that you cannot destroy two totems and have two activations ready), Distortion had the potential to be a useful perk, but it really isn't, since you have tokens for it and only 3 of them.
Killer perks that are useful, instead, are:
- Ruin;
- Undying;
- Spirit's Fury;
- Nurse's Calling;
- Franklin's Demise;
- BBQ & Chilli;
- Play With Your Food;
- Save The Best For Last;
- Pop Goes The Weasel;
- Blood Echo;
- Thanatophobia;
- Monitor & Abuse;
- Lightborn;
- Enduring;
- Haunted Grounds;
- Coup de Grace;
- Oppression;
- Thrilling Tremors;
- Bamboozle;
- Surveillance;
- Stridor;
- Dying Light;
- Corrupt Intervention
- Discordance;
- Iron Maiden;
- Make Your Choice;
- Infectious Fright;
- Remember Me.
And I could still go on. The list will probably get longer with upcoming chapters. I'm not saying all of these perks are equally useful, nor that they are equally strong on every killer, luckily. But still, as you can see, killers have WAY more perks that they can use and put to good use. Without even mentioning the fact that Bloodlust, as much as it should not be a thing anymore, isn't even a perk. And before you argue about Undying, it will still make it so your Ruin survives longer, and that is IF survivors are able to find the totem/actively search for it and IF it doesn't get placed in spawns where survivors cannot cleanse them, as it has already happened on reworked maps.
i like you said that most of survivor perks are situational at best while listing perks like... Lightborn, Blood echo, Franklin demise and than there's list of perks that are like... Remember me, Iron maiden, Dying light??, thrilling tremors... like nobody uses this stuff for good reason. you do not need perks like Lightborn for example to counter flashlights.
I'd say 15 most used perks for killer are
BBQ,Discordance,Infectious fright
Corrupt intervention,Sloppy butcher, Ruin+Undying
Brutal strength,Bamboozle,STBFL
Nurse calling, Monitor, Make your choice, NOED,Tinkerer
and than there are perks that people use to overdose a particular strength such as... Enduring Spirit fury, Nemesis+PWYF for chase oriented builds or Whispers on information heavy builds, Pop goes weasel on heavy defense builds or Devour hope+Haunted grounds for wildcard but I wouldn't consider these perks meta exactly. While it look impressive that killers have maybe 20 perks that do something... however there are 22 playable killers.... that means there are less viable perks than there are total playable killers despite most of them having somewhat unique powers where all survivors all play the same way. With Undying becoming dead perk, Ruin will surely likely to be used less.
Likely to see more people use Corrupt intervention+Sloppy butcher until we return next year with another developer update that will read something along lines: We heard that corrupt intervention lasts too long and mangled status effect is too impactful so we reducing the duration from 2 minutes to 45 seconds and changing sloppy from 20%->15% with max duration of 1 minute instead of indefinite with a bunch more "identified" problems.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1861712#Comment_1861712
I agree. Devour Hope is basically the best Slowdown-Perk in the game, once it reaches 3 Stacks. I have never seen a match where Devour Hope reached this stage and anyone was still doing Gens, especially, because the Killer got Hook Number 4 (and afterwards Stack 4) at this point when the Survivors know that Devour Hope is in place.
I also like that you can go for other Hexes now that Undying lets keep the Stacks. Because, lets face it, it was a Perk that helps Hex-Perks, but was only used with exactly one of them.
Let alone that Totem Spots are improved all the time, when the Asylum gets reworked one of the worst Totem Spots in the game will most likely be gone. And a Map with good Totem Spots + Ruin and old Undying can mean that the Survivors might never be able to cleanse Ruin. And Hex-Perks are not meant to stay up all game, if that would be the case, they would not be tied to a Totem.
It does not slow game down, it speeds the game up for killer through downing quicker and mori. One of the popular suggestions for Ebony Moris and Ivory Mori was that these mori should only work when the killer hooks each person once, that suggestion is similar how devour hope works. Devour hope is kinda like an earned NOED. From my experience of using the perk, 33% of the time, the perk gets disable before it has any impact on the match, 33% of the time, it ends up activating but it get disabled before the killer get a mori and other 33% of the time, the killer gets a mori from it.
While it sounds good to instantly win 1/3 of your games from this perk, The requirement of 5 stacks means that either all of the team got hooked once or that two people are death hook and when a game for killer has lasted that long for killer, more often than not, the killer is already in a winning position and does not need devour hope to win. In other words, the survivor was incompetent from the start and the perk largely is overkill. Its large reason to why the perk has largely been ignored by the killer community because old/new ruin helped at all points in the game and has concurring effect of being stronger the better the killer player was with that killer.
A year ago, they said they do not like killer perks that slow generator down and how it was popular strategy. So in their eyes, nerfing Undying+Ruin is mission complete just like pop goes weasel. The perks becoming weaker will not affect affect experienced rank 1 killers however many games were very close because of Ruin+Undying and now they'll be sure wins for survivor especially for weaker killers with no real competition if both sides are of equal skill. Its funny because it was barely close with those perks as many teams did successfully cleanse all 5 totems and complete all 5 generators or come very close to doing so. so much for those improved totem spots.
Conclusively, maybe we should ask survivor main community for what perks they do not mind losing to and dev can make those killer perks meta. Clearly the survivor meta is well established with exhaust perks and second chance perks like DS/BT/UB that only slowdown the killer from getting kills. No clue for what was wrong for killer in slowing gens to cancel out survivor perks. I guess we're stuck with killer being perk-less for a little while.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1860320#Comment_1860320
That’s the trick though.
Tonics coming into contact with antidote clouds immediately cancel each other out. Trick a survivor to head towards a speed boost, take it away from them before they run through it.
what trick. survivor's running faster are never good for killer. I am not sure how this concept is difficult to understand and one other comment, RHPF is beatable and is not any different from facing any other instant down killer. Clown's current add-on are somewhat impactful and well designed so an add-on pass seems like negative for him.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
What they said makes sense.
As it stands currently, Clown’s greatest asset is that he exerts WAY more control on where survivors go during a chase than any other killer.
If there is somewhere I absolutely do not want the survivors to go, I already know where to throw gas in the survivors path to make that survivor change direction. Despite the survivor avoiding the gas, this planning still usually results in me getting in a hit.
Adding in something I can throw that ENCOURAGES where I want them to go AS WELL, will give Clown even more chase control, rather than the current “well I know where the survivor ISN’T going, unless they’re suicidal”
An easy example I can already think of is to throw a tonic at the shack if I can predict the survivor heading towards it. I can also quickly follow that up with throwing an antidote at another close by area that has no pallet or vault.
It’s about tricking the survivor to go exactly where Clown wants survivors to go for an easy hit. The survivors speed boost doesn’t mean anything the moment Clown also runs through the same gas.
Survivors will only go in clouds that benefit them such as making it to another rotation of a loop or another pallet. Skilled survivors will never go into the yellow gas if it does not benefit them. Its basic skill for survivor understand basic distancing & routing. Almo gave me good laugh when he was describing that. I always smile whenever you say something along lines of "survivor won't be able to escape chases vs Clown" as if survivors are suppose to win chases vs killer over... waste killer time in chases to complete generators.
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@Kebek said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1859774#Comment_1859774
I don't mean to pry but wasn't Lucky break mentioned some time ago to be getting changes as well ? I really hope you guys have plans for it too.
Dead hard, Blood Echo and Lucky break were the perks that they mentioned but did not receive a change. I really wish they improve one universal killer perk for every perk they gut. : (. I want to see them buff Furtive chase such that each token reduces a killer TR globally by 4 instead only in a chase and the perk stays like STBFL even after Obsession dies. Fixated is super fun perk to use. I like using it to troll Spirit players.
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@thesuicidefox said:
10% movement speed if 0.4 m/s, so Clown will move at 5 m/s (Bloodlust 2) and survivors move at 4.4 m/s (Hag/Huntress/Slinger).
It is not adding 5% speed like PWYF. It is increasing all movement speed actions by 10% I think. Increasing is another word for multiplying. 4.6 * 0.10 = 0.46, 4.6+0.46=5.06. Peanits has his math right.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1859164#Comment_1859164
The antidote does not- in fact it does the opposite. The antidote will clear any negative effects, including blurred vision, from the tonic.
The tonic does still obscure your vision, though.
All status effects!? does that include Sloppy butcher, Third seal Blindness and Oblivious from stuff like Nemesis? 2.5 seconds for cloud to activate seems very long. hope we got add-on to reduce that 2.5 seconds. What an interesting PTB.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1858479#Comment_1858479
They share the same resource. Reloading gives you four bottles by default of any combination you'd like.
One way you might want to use them, for example, is by throwing an antidote as your approaching the loop, then switching the tonics. That way you get a speed boost from the gas that's too far away for the survivor to run back and get, and then have your usual bottles to slow them down some more.
I'm pretty sure that only power in the game that benefit survivors is plague's healing pools but plague gets something pretty good out of it. I am not exactly sure what clown is getting out of helping survivor. It seems like unnecessary potential negative for no real benefit. Its looking hollow but maybe add-on change are very big improvement.
Another comment regarding Second wind, Its not good enough of change for anyone to use it more than they do now. the requirement to heal another survivor hurts the perk too much, too inconsistent of a heal per match. If you removed requirement to heal 1 health state and it just healed after you get unhooked. it would get used more. As for Undying change.... well Hex perks are suppose to be high reward, but whats the point of using a hex perk in Undying if the reward is not there. Seems like more negative changes for killer perks than improvements...
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@Hopesfall said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1851412#Comment_1851412
This comparison is a bad one. The killer did not get 12 hooks. From an objective standpoint, 12 hooks is the killer objective, and 5 gens is the survivor's objective. Kills and Escapes are not. They happen after the objective.
So someone getting 4 kills in "2 minutes" means they slugged and 1 hooked everyone.. that's not impressive, nor remotely close to actually completing the objective.
This game, the objective was actually done in 2.5 mins. End of story.
There is literally no killer equivalency of being able to 12 hook a team in 2.5 mins. Not an Iri Head Huntress, not an "OP" Spirit or Nurse.
Hooks tell story of the game. They're good indicator for how good the killer is.
Kills tell the results of the game. They're win condition.
I really hope their MMR and Future ranking system for killer is becomes more accurate reflected of this. The story of this game is that the player had no chance to win. The result is that he lost and the survivor's won. 3 hooks is nothing more than formality. its just the number of messes up the survivor is allowed to do before the game says your dead.
As i said, Freddy can't compete at highest level. so the result is not too surprising. makes you wonder why they think killers like Freddy needs negative changes when stuff like that is the game. Killer can be such a unfun experience. who knows if they'll ever balance SWF with their gen speeds.
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@Blueberry said:
This issue with Plague has been going on for what, 1-2 years now? Hard to fully remember but it's basically ever since dedicated servers came out as the issues are generally ping related. Seeing as it's been that long I've lost faith in it getting fixed ever.
Even if it did get fixed Plague is still an underwhelming killer that has a lot of design issues. The main reason people don't play her is because the survivors control your power and that's just not fun, strong, or good design.
That's really sad that plague your favorite killer. Emblem system definitely hates plague. I would say that if you wanted plague to compete against top 1% of survivors, they'd need to do two changes to plague for that to occur.
1) The cooldown after puking would need to be removed. Its extremely clunky gameplay wise to consistently get slowed down even for infecting a generator or tiny object. Pyramid head same problem and its awful from gameplay perspective. hope his change one day gets reverted or something.
2) Getting hit by Corrupt puke should not make you immune for 3 seconds to damage and should be able to double hit the survivor in single puke.
Plague's power is not really controlled by the survivors, her base power is ability to inflict broken status which denies survivor from their sprint burst when they take a hit and latter power is really potent huntress. The two things that stop her from being super strong is the fact that when you use vile purge, you suffer a movement speed slowdown+cooldown which prevents you from m1's survivor that lost a health state(makes her instant down ineffective) and the fact that corrupt puke is unable to hit 2 times in a single puke. If those restrictions were removed and emblem system stop punishing instant down killers, I definitely think she'd be one of most popular killers.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1845661#Comment_1845661
Hello and thanks a lot for the long text, i really appreciate it.
First of all, i am not a survivor main, i play both roles equaly, also according to my stats.
About the perks: Thanks for the suggestion, but i wont change perks because of any killer. Perks and items (which i never bring to a trial) should not solve the problem. i also play perkless frequently.
About tricks on how to defend against victor: Well to be fair this sounds all very logical and all, but eventually it comes down to how good the killer can handle Victor. I am not counting on that he is missing, sure i will try to make it as hard as possible for him, but its quite similar like deathslinger: If he is just good enough he will hit you, no matter how you move. At least this is from my experience. I have with both killer a very similar feeling, simply because victor is so fast. Missing a target as victor 4-6 meters away is actually really hard to pull off, the hitbox feels gigantic.
Anyway, thank you i will try my best, one day i will beat them eventually :P I still have a strong feeling it really also comes down to teammates who have to understand the best strategy against them.
Kind regards
I mean easy way to figure how hard it is to land a Victor pounce is to do a killer challenge, only try to go for long range victor pounces, I assure you. just play Twins for even 2 games and go for long range pounces, the hitbox is not that big. Its about size of Huntress hatchet. Its real strength is pointblank. you can find this out yourself or just take my word for it. I have feeling that after many months, everyone will just spam lockers against Twins and i know say they said that one of the perk they will buff is Iron maiden... but Iron maiden is.... hot garbage trash perk and it will never be good perk even on Twins so I hope they increase locker timer to 15 or 20 seconds so that they're only usable if its map-wide like Mother dwelling. I really fear lockers even though its not being utilized much.... yet...
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@xEa said:
Hello
I am here to ask the community what to do against the Twins. Since they were released, i have not even survived this killer a single time and every game ends the exact same: Everyone slugged on the ground.
I am not a terrible survivor by any means, my winstreak as solo survivor is above 40 escapes in a row in red ranks and i have about 4K hours in this game. So "git gud at looping" is not helpful.
Because of the problems i have with this killer, i checked youtube and competent streamer for some tips, guides etc but they dont really come up with anything useful. The best i found was Dowseys 4K Streak with the Twins (200 in a row) but while watching him, there was nothing the survivor did that helped. They all got destroyed over and over again and i could not see any play that would even make him struggle a bit.
Dowsey himself suggested to pair up, but as solo survivor, its easier said then executed.
So, maybe one of you here can help me out? How do you survive the twins?
Kind regards
I kinda dislike helping survivor mains now a days. they should learn to play against twins on their own. that being said, I've played against Twins about 50 times and i'd say i've lost like 25 times out of the 50 which is more than double than most other killers. I'm not sure why survivor mains instantly give up and say "It has no counter-play blah blah".
If your looking hard-counter Twins, There two specific perks that obliterates Twin's. Both of which I will say are Non-meta survivor perks. The first perk is Soulguard. Many Twin players will often use Undying+Ruin because other perks such as Pop goes weasel are Ineffective because the killer spends most of his time controlling victor, Not charlotte. As long as Ruin is up, Soulguard is Unlimited Unbreakable. If an entire has Soulguard vs Twins, It forces the twins to pick up survivors manually after every down with victor which is very slow and completely counters their entire slugging gameplay. No mither also works but for obvious reason, I don't recommend you to run it.
Second perk that obliterates Twin is Autodidact. The reason being is that as Twin players slug, you can heal slugged people on the floor and as you heal them, you can easily hit 5 tokens from single slug and eventually just instant heal your entire team is seconds. Twins needs everyone to be injured to 4 man slug and if you never injured, you can hold victor for 30 seconds +10 second of regrow time and if entire team is always full health, Twins will never be able to slug. There are other good perks such as Botany+Desperate measures+Self-care or Leader but they're not slot efficient. Durable med kits are also super strong vs them.
With that being said, you don't need these perks to win, but they make Twins really easy to beat. As for victor, there is a lot of tricks to dodging him. the biggest mistake people make vs him is they think that going close to victor is the way to dodge victor pounce and that is entirely wrong way to play vs Victor. The strategy behind victor is when victor holds his pounce, he slowdown for like 1 second, use this time to make distance to about 4-6 meters away, Victor is at his strongest when he's pointblank because travel time to pounce is instant but further away he is, the more travel the pounce has and therefore there is way more chance to dodge him. Long range pounces are much harder to hit than close range ones and you can slowly wiggle away from Victor if he commits to the Pounce. Many Twin players will often cancel their pounce if they're 6 meters away and you can keep making distance. If your more than 35 meters away from charlotte, you can just jump into a locker and instant win vs Victor, otherwise bait a pounce and kick him as usual. Other stuff to know about Victor is Victor can't break pallets so you might as well drop them and Victor is not consider a chase so you can use windows with no entity blocker.
Hope that helps. Twin is devastating killer when played well but she has fair counter-play if you can constantly bait victor into missing his pounce and win many chases against Victor. Very challenging to play against especially in SoloQ. Personal opinion, I think many survivors hate Twins because she's difficult to play against but not many killer players play Twins because slugging is pretty high-skill cap in DBD as it is all or nothing strategy. I like her because she's not a push-over when your skilled at her and she's actually challenging to play against if the player is good at killer. Its very refreshing for them to release a killer that isn't just vault window 2 times, drop pallets and hold W with 5 minute generators with no-heal playstyle. Good luck doing that vs solid Twins player. It will only get you to one-way ticket to 4 man slugging.
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@Jukantos said:
TL;DR: Breakable walls are a huge problem because the time required to break them to disarm (former) godloops is a "secondary objective" most killers literally cannot afford to do against competent survivors.
Matchmaking is in the worst state it's ever been, you would get more accurate matches by randomizing from the entire pool of online players (because matches would still be bad but at least queue times would go under 15 minutes)
Bunch of balancing suggestions to compensate for the huge discrepancy of resources available on reworked maps pre- and post- rework (Ormond being the only map to actually get more balanced in the rework process, while every other map consistently became more survivor friendly, or at least more resource-loaded)
One of your suggestions is literally killer perk, "Generator progress slower when Injured", Thanotophobia. Recently got weaker by removing the healing penalty to insure that the perk can never hit 4 stacks as you can heal easily out of it. Gen speed problems is nothing new. honestly if they just set to 90 seconds, It would fix a lot of issues at higher ranks.
Survivor being imbalanced hasn't changed in last 4 years, most of major changes occurred in first year of the game and nothing much has changed ever since. God windows were intentional by design from the looks of it, Before there wasn't even any option to deal with them, At least now you can breakable walls but that is barely an improvement given time sink. Haddonfield and Fracture Cowshed were always imbalance maps and they haven't really changed. Same for majority of old survivor maps both pre-rework and post rework. Apart from T-L wall maze tile, most of the tiles included a very strong window when utilized correctly & safe-god pallet and most of the filler pallets are still as safe as ever. Overflow of resource to loop for 3 minutes is not new. Its just rewarding survivor skill. The issue is "When does DBD begin to reward killer skill?" on non-nurse/Non-Spirit level killer. It appears that whenever this starts to be the case e.g Billy,Freddy,Pyramid head, Survivors complain about it enough that it get removed or needs changes. Stuff that is skillful for survivor get preserved and Killer stuff seems to never stay the same.
Matchmaking hasn't change much either. The only thing that did change is crossplay. Seems console has a lot of survivor players and almost no killer players. When you win a lot, the matchmaker seems to put you against stronger survivor players until you lose, and when you lose enough, it eventually puts you against weaker players. This is all well and good but why this is not reflected in ranking system remains a mystery. as for lack of killers... well that is related to fun factor killer, which has progressively becoming worse over last year. When killer becomes more fun to play, you'll have shorter survivor queue times hopefully.
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@Almo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1841113#Comment_1841113
Nurse is on the bottom for all ranks averaged. Nurse is on the bottom for ranks 1-4. Nurse is in the top 25% for killrate across Killers when considering players who are in the top 1% for killrate with their respective Killers.
who is the worst killer when averaged? is it really clown or is it someone else? Curious.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1837105#Comment_1837105
No S tier is reserved for the top characters. Dude, I was on the Smash Backroom, THE ORIGINAL Smash Backroom. We made the first like 8 tier lists for Melee, and they haven't changed much in the 10 years I left. That was literally 50% of our job, the other 50% being to make the community guidelines/rulesets. We discussed just how tier lists are formed for pages and pages and pages on the forum, this not including the discussion of the actual tier list itself. I know all about how to make a tier list, I've done it many times.
Whoever the best character is gets placed in S tier. The next best, third best, sometimes also gets placed there if they are of comparable strength to the top (and is usually dependent on how many characters are on the list). That's all it is. S does not mean perfect, it means the best. You will never see a tier list without an S tier even if the character in S tier is actually not that good COMPARED TO THE REST OF THE CAST they are the best. SS is generally the tier reserved for broken or "perfect" characters, but those are actually insanely rare.
Its good that you made up your own definition for S-tier but that is just not how the world works. Its like me making up word saying that happy means sad but at the end of the day, anyone that read word "Happy" will read it as joy. Its just how the world works.
As I stated in
my previous post, I think highest tier in DBD is A-tier and it goes down to B,C,D but what does that even mean in respect to DBD? Can a D-tier killer win vs good teams? The answer is probably not. What about C-tier? Probably not. B-tier? closer than everything below it but probably not, at least not in reliable sense. at this point it becomes a list of how hard killers lose rather how good at they are at winning. In the end, you need to be able to win(hook) 5-6 times within 5 minutes of DBD game and you need reliable tools to outplay your opponent at every turn. Its not like other games where every character in a fighting game can beat another character, but other weaker character have worse tools or numbers. In DBD, its more true/false question in regards to whether your tools are effective or not in allotted time frame.Moral of the story, I think tier-lists in DBD are publicity stunts and perception skews for what people believe is effective and often their tier-list is what works for them. my 2 cents on it. So I would them take them with grain of salt.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1837036#Comment_1837036
S Tier is reserved for the very few characters that are clearly the best. Most tier lists only place 2-3 out of a roster of 20 in S tier. Sometimes just 1. It's not meant to say the character is 10/10 just that they are clearly the superior one.
Look up what S-tier stands for. here's quick link and I'll read the description based off this website: https://tiermaker.com/blog/news/15/s-tier-meaning-what-does-s-tier-stand-for.
"The S ranking in a tier list is typically regarded as standing for "superb" or "super" and is considered the highest ranking on a tier list template. Under S tier, the tier labels use a traditional A - D grading scale. Tier list labels can be customized and at times a row for "SS" will be placed above S tier.
A fighting game character, fast food restaurant or any other thing ranked S in a tier list would be considered the very best, OP, elite or whatever other adjective you want to give it.
There doesn't appear to be a definitive origin story for using S as the top placements in tier lists or definition of what it actually stands for. Here are some of the top definitions and meanings for the acclaimed tier list placement."
The origin of the term is what Japanese used to describe as "Perfect score". No killer in DBD is 10/10 score. Anything that has perfect score in video games is overpowered beyond belief and game-breaking. Most kllers in DBD are at best 6/10 (above average), 5/10 or 4/10(Average/below average) or at worst, 1-3/10(really situational to weak). A killer in dbd to have perfect score would have to have perfect anti-looping potential with little to no counter-play, Instant global mobility, Undetectable, Global aura-reading, Instant down, Instant mori. 90% of survivor base would just rage disconnect if a killer was that strong.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1836360#Comment_1836360
He's literally the worst stealth killer and has nothing besides that. Ghostface and Pig are both far superior to him, despite being actually visible. Like dude, I can see a Wraith moving clear across the map. That's not stealth. Both Pig and GF can make themselves smaller which has more benefits in more places. They both also have secondary abilities (traps/marks). All Wraith has is turning invisible and he's not even good at that. He has nothing to help him at a loop or to delay the game or to pressure survivors (ie. exposed). He's an m1 killer that can turn sort of invisible. Every single killer above him is just a better killer.
Imagine turning invisible and still being the weakest stealth killer in the game.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1836129#Comment_1836129
Tier lists should be all encompassing. You need to consider every map, add-on, perk combination, survivor tactics, etc. The killers at the top will more consistently outperform the ones at the bottom across the widest variety of scenarios.
For example, Freddy has no bad maps. NONE. Not even Haddonfield is bad for Freddy. Because he can teleport to gens the size of the map is ultimately irrelevant. Positioning of gens is irrelevant. Heck even what would be good RNG for survivors isn't really good RNG against Freddy, such as having a god window or pallet near a certain gen all because he can just subvert that with a teleport (and snares). Maps like Game and Midwich he is WAY stronger than every single other killer besides Nurse because he doesn't need to use the stairs to get around (same with Nurse). Compare this to another strong killer like Huntress, well she can easily get screwed over by the map or bad RNG. Layout and orientation of tiles makes a huge difference for her. Certain windows or pallets being available can cuck her. Large maps are really bad for her. Indoor maps are bad for her. It is easy to split the map against a Huntress and win. Against Freddy there is no such thing as splitting the map. Any orientation of 3 gens is basically a 3 gen strat for Freddy.
And yea I think my thread really made a strong point to the devs about the strength of Freddy. I play him all the time, you could say I main him but I consider myself a Spirit main at the end of the day. He is definitely my second most played, and I did main old Freddy before Spirit came out. I'd be fine with them tuning him down just a bit. It doesn't need much, basically remove Oblivious from the Dream World and put it on an add-on, reduce the size of snares by maybe 20% so that it requires better placement to get good use out of them, and give him another add-on pass to rework some add-ons that are just flat out useless (I'm looking at you Z Block). I would also remove the sleep clock from the start of the game and make it so that it only appears after he hits you for the first time. This would be good for both Freddy and survivors. For Freddy you get more element of surprise since survivors won't know it's Freddy immediately when the game starts. And for survivors it adds some reward for not getting found/hit for as long as possible. That's all he needs to be a more balanced killer, one that takes skill to play at higher levels.
Nurse has bad maps. Lery's and Hawkins are not good maps for Nurse as there is a lot of LOS blockers. Rotten field and Old Yamoka estate could been argued has "difficult maps" but that does not mean that Nurse is bad because few maps are harder than others. you can argue that you can just "blink" better on these maps and usurp the difficulty and dominate the map but the reality is that if survivor team is good and has tricky movement+fast generators, Its going to be a rough game, high probability to lose, yet many people still say she is the best killer, even put her at S-tier. I do not like tiers because S-tier almost implies that the killer is a 10/10 and that the killer is broken/unbeatable which is definitely not the case. Also, you can't say that Wraith Purple Windstorm+All-seeing blood or Ghostface on Hawkins is a bad on these maps, Its just that... majority of the maps are bad for them, so people do not really consider the odd ball maps for where they're good or bad, they look at the majority.
I also do consider every add-on & tactic. For example, Otz made a tier-list many months ago where he said that Hag is 3rd best killer in the game. i am not sure why he said that but I think possible reason he said that was perhaps related to Mint rag and Rusty shackles add-on. Hag has 1 main strength and two severe weakness. Her strength is that when hag gets a hook, Hag has best hook momentum in the entire game. Killers call it hook momentum, Survivors will call it proxy camping or just camping. When hag gets a hook, your almost never going leave that hook without trading. SWF make short work of hag. All they need to do to beat hag is have one person get chased by hag who is 110% which is laughably easy and one person following them with a flashlight and disable each trap that is placed. Other two work on generators until the game is over. One of hag's weakness is her setup can be broken very easily and you can effectively ban hag from ever setting up and starve her to death. This is what strong SWF do to hags. Not every game is swf and this strategy requires a lot of coordination and is almost impossible in solo. Solo-queue has different method against hag. Almost everyone knows that hag excels at camping but also know she sucks at the chase. This means that Hag has worst gen pressure in the entire game. Hag cannot chase people off generators in most maps(again Hawkins,midwich elementary school, The game etc, are small+choke points) so what most people do vs hag is they let a player get chased, the player who get chased often gets zoned with traps and than gets hooked. The idea is that hag will setup a web around hooked person and instead of survivors saving the hooked person, you just let the person get 2 hooked until their death timer reaches 5-10 seconds and just do generators across the map that hag cannot pressure than hook trade at last second so that hooked person does not die(Borrow time really helps here).
Depending on how fast the first was hooked and what generator were complete, All hags will either successfully 3 gen and win or unsuccessfully 3 gen and lose, but vs good teams Solo or SWF, 3 generators are not effective when 4 players are alive. Survivors can heal way faster than a killer can deal damage and luckily base regression speed is very slow compare to 2-3 survivors simultaneously repairing gens. So 3 generator Freddy is pretty easy to beat because 3 gen hag is pretty common to answer your post. Long-story, short, this is why I think hag is overrated and is not as good as people claim her to be. Mint rag add-on allows you to teleport globally around the map but Hag is still 110% chasing killer and she relies in-front setup at loops to use Mint rag as Anti-looping tool(Please play trapper if your going to do this). People talk about how Spirit has no counter-play in her power due to no visual feedback, They should play against Rusty shackle Hag to talk about an add-on that gives ZERO feedback when you spring a trap. In short, Its really strong, easily Hag's best add-on, Definitely Iri head level of power for skilled hag but at the end of the day, Flashlights exist and your going need a good SWF to beat this add-on as it is really powerful. Its why I place hag as almost viable with a big ?.
Lastly, When making that tier-list I consider many games some player names that i recognized as I played vs them, for example I've played against Ralph(A well known Huntress main) 2-3 times and Ohtofu(Played against his Deathslinger & Huntress) and those games are hard. I remember facing really good Freddy on Gas heaven, rank 1 with the perks BBQ/POP/Nemesis/Dead man switch with slowdown add-on and he hooked like every person twice including me and on very last chase, I had really strong chase against him and I died on 3rd hook but everyone else escaped. The key to beating Freddy is winning early game before microsleep kicks in, than staying awake for the majority of the game leaving him to be an M1 killer with just a teleport. Haddonfield is a bad map for most M1 killers and you can easily keep Freddy as M1 killer even if generator take longer from failed skill-checks as his chases will be very long if played correctly. Also don't give him free first hits. He's not that amazing as you think he is but it is really easy for him to access either his anti-loop snares or his game slowdown. Personally, If I had to make a change on Freddy, I would remove his micro-sleep mechanic from his kit because I feel like it gives him unlawful rewards for existences. It would make him need to actually work for his power like Oni. Currently I think his rewards for being in dream world are not that good but they're always present so no matter how bad freddy plays it, he'll always get rewarded for his power. I think it would be better if he perhaps had his old aura-reading back in his kit that works within his TR which would make him a greater monster in the chase but he'd have to hit people first to get it to work so he would fall more in lines with Oni/Spirit where the power is strong when the killer player is good but worse when the player is ineffective at getting hits with Freddy.
I am sorry if the explanation is really long but it is as short as I could write while trying to be really concise to the point. I consider all add-on and perks(lmo, like 20 killer perks are viable). I just don't consider map offering because they're rare in bloodweb and I do not consider Mori's that skip hook states as that effect is too game-breaking. Hopefully the post answers all your claims and questions in your post.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1835556#Comment_1835556
Freddy has had the highest kill rate in both all ranks and red ranks since his rework over a year ago. Higher than both Nurse and Spirit, and higher than the second best by a statistically significant margin. He is getting nerfed soon. He wouldn't be on the chopping block if he wasn't S tier. He is hands down the killer with the most tools in his kit, hands down the best map pressure in the game due to his ability to teleport clear across the map (Nurse, Billy, Oni, Spirit, Blight... none of them can get across the map as fast as Freddy... 3 seconds and he is 90m away using Pop on a gen IMMEDIATELY after a hook). He also has very strong chase potential with snares. Mechanically and statistically he is one of the strongest killers in the game. If you seriously think Freddy is not S tier then you never actually played against a competent Freddy. You are as likely to beat a top tier Freddy as you are a top tier Nurse or Spirit, as in slim to none.
Myers has a one shot, which means he can actually threaten you. Legion cannot threaten you with his power, he just gets a free health state is all. Plus Myers has add-ons where he can insta-kill you, and he is very stealth oriented which means he is more likely to get that second hit than Legion.
Plague and Legion are functionally very similar. They both are meant to force survivors to play the game injured. But that's not a very strong thing especially when they can't really capitalize on that. Being injured is kinda meaningless against them. Plague has Corrupt Purge which IS a serious threat to injured survivors, but it has a lot of limits and survivors ultimately control how much she can get.
Oni doesn't have access to his power at all times. He is like Billy + Myers. He has to both build his power and use it at the right time. There's not necessarily ever a wrong time to chainsaw someone if you can. There is definitely a wrong time to use your Oni stick on someone, and you lose your power if you decide to take a hook. Billy never has to deal with being without a power except in those very rare instances where he overheats but then only for 15 seconds.
Nurse,Spirit,Twins ->Characters I have most success with on any map, Very difficult to counter-play when played perfectly(This is my experience from playing survivor).
Bubba,Doctor,Huntress -> Relative sure-win but SWF is big threat. Often will need slug/tunnel if the team is too skilled at gens. Challenging in a chase but easy to win if the team is good.
Oni,Blight,Freddy,hag(?) -> Almost viable, A single buff could make them really good, Map depended. Moderate challenge when playing survivor. can beat SWF on odd occasions
Pig,Deathslinger,Ghostface,Trapper,Legion,Plague,Pyramid head -> Solo queue stompers, Terrible vs Strong SWF, Kinda easy to 1vs1 "Solo carry the game"
Demogorgon,Myers,Clown,Wraith,Billy -> Genuinely feels bad to play, DBD on easy-mode for survivor. Takes a lot of effort to play, Little reward.
I have personally never made tier-list because I do not think they really work in this game but its Christmas. I personally think that your post 2-3 months ago single handy convinced developers to weaken freddy that and the fact that lower-skilled players ######### about him all the time and occassional drop in nerf freddy posts or spam dev streams with it. I don't think devs really balance on stats seeing as Nurse had 5 blinks with 77% killrate for more than 3 years of her life cycle and ebony moris & instant heals existed for very long time in near broken status.
My tier-list is based off 4120 hours of playing the game and experiencing playing survivor against killers. DBD is strange game where its not based off how many tools you have, its based off how effective your tools are and how consistent they are in application of scenario. A killer could have 20 tools, but if only two of them occur very often, than other tools might as not exist. Also I did not look at tools a killer has blindly on paper and go like "Deathslinger has a ranged gun with low TR M&A, Strong killer" or look at other people tier-lists and go like, yeah Billy is A-tier. I like playing a killer for like 200 games and seeing how well they play and I like counting how many times a killer power did something that another killer could not get. I feel like many tier-lists just pirate for what other people say and the players themselves do not even play majority of the killers or just assume their strength in a hollow paper image. Also the tier-list excludes mori add-on(Purple tombstone) and map offerings/special builds and assumes every killer is using their best add-ons.
One of the comments talk about Bubba. A good way to understand why Bubba is so good is imagine Bubba's chainsaw like Legion's Feral Frenzy, except it breaks pallets instantly, Instant downs you but can't go over windows. Most Bubba's run Award chili+Beast marks as their add-on and good Bubba's can brute force majority of pallets, use bamboozle to weaken maze tiles and if they have 2 charges or 3 charges, they can visualize the distance of their chainsaw before they use it and know that your going down. Bubba can eat a lot of pallets really quickly, often zone you and get downs and his hook defense capacities are some of the best in the game. If bubba gets 2 downs close to each other, he can just slug a person on the hook and hook other person and most of the defensive perks that survivors have like BT or Unbreakable+Soulguard are pretty meaningless. If your at 5 gens, you've already lost on the spot. he even soft counters sprint burst. Strong survivors can call your bluff on number of charges you have+loop very tightly around loops in hopes you make a mistake and tantrum, Bluff pallet drops and chain loops together to loop you but very few are capable of that. Most survivors drop like flies. Solid bubba's never tantrum in loops.
Deathslinger needs to get the first hit before his gun becomes lethal and low-tr does not mean a sure hit. Ideally he wants to get a stealth hit and shoot but survivors can keep baiting his shot and even though they lose distance for each fail they get, they can keep dropping safe pallets to keep gaining distance back at which point, you eventually have to start shooting because the games going faster then you can keep up with the downs but if you keep recklessly shooting than it starts to become predictable to the point that missing starts to make you lose even harder. Deathslinger is really good at playing filler pallets that can shoot through and he can get some shots between loops if he hits his shots. Bubba power is more universally useful and always benefits you in long run and short run, Deathslinger is risk vs reward character with large hit or miss margin. When he wins, he wins hard but when he loses, he loses very hard. Super inconsistent for a killer. Relies on survivor to be altruistic to be successful.
If we had all day, I could go more detail why I think those killers are where they are but I think their position in self-explanatory for experienced players. Longest post I have ever written in my life.
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@gatsby said:
People sometimes forget that a lot of what makes many Killers strong is exploiting mechanics in a way that probably wasn't part of the Devs original design concept.
Hag/Twins- Using your power to essentially face camp while multitasking the other Survivors.
Spirit- Standing still for free hits because Survivors can't tell when you're using your power.
Pyramid Head- Using your power to tunnel through Decisive. Using power to hit both Survivors on unhooks.
Demo/Pig- Exploiting the "basic attack" mechanic to have permanent 8 stacks on STBL.
Huntress- Hitting Survivors with close range hatchets because the cooldown is less than a standard M1.
Wraith- Using your hitbox mechanics in cloak to push Survivors into corners or out of pallet dropping range.
Ghost Face- Using the broken stealth reveal mechanics to expose Survivors that are looking directly at you.
Any others you can think of? It's funny that all these exploits of Killers were probably complete oversights by the Devs originally and they slowly just became "features" that were part of their overall balance. Remove most of these things and a lot of these Killers would become trash tier.
Pretty much all the killers. Trapper's traps can also exploit STBFL but they're primary used to put traps at totems for camping devour hope. Instantsaw Curving Billy, Nurse's Old range add-ons. Myers EV2 99% into instant kill mori/Instant down. Old Freddy with add-on's to reduce skillcheck chance to keep you permanently asleep. Old Legion Deep Wound mechanics. Blight's Lethal rush sliding into a wall to curve lunges. Doctor's Old static field on small maps. Pretty sure all of the features are intended, Just some of them get removed and others stay.
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@ineedsleep It has been really disappointing that within a year in a half for perks, we only got one meta perk in Hex:Undying since ghostface's release. My new year resolution is that I hope dbd 2021 new killer perks are better than what we are currently getting.
The game is definitely survivor sided but to what extent? We will not know until the developers make a skill based ranking system that is then used to calculate MMR for Matchmaking purposes. I imagine it would be really easy to create a skill based ranking system for survivor because it is easy to figure out what defines a good survivor player/team from a bad one. All you need to calculate is how fast/how many generators get done, how few hits/hook states a survivor gets and how effective they are at wasting the killer's time in a chase and all of these factors contribute to a high escape rate. if you do a lot for team, but you don't escape, if 2 more of your teammate escape, you pip, otherwise you draw/lose(Drawing is equal to pipping in current system at red). escaping is unconditional pip. They do need to look into weakening keys such as that the hatch only spawns at 5 generator completed and some time to open the hatch similar to exit gates(probably faster).
Killer is way too complicated, I imagine what they will do to simplify killer is look at amount hooks a killer gets where 3 hooks counts as kill and If the killer gets 7 or less hooks, It counts as loss and if the killer gets 8 or more hooks than it counts as a win. Another feature they should add is something called killer mastery where you need to get a certain threshold in Killer Mastery(Based off your current global rank) for your games to count towards global ranking on that killer. If you can not achieve a high enough mastery, then your games will not count towards global ranking and ranking system should matchmaking should keep putting you 1 rank color below your actual rank until you are good enough to play that killer for learning purposes.
Currently, It is too difficult to understand how Survivor sided or Killer-sided the game is because there is no clear indication of what skill a player is in the game. Some red rank killer matches are easy as hell while others are really hard. Its also really random from day to day. An analogy of the problem is like putting average chess player against Magnus Carlson and then saying chess is rigged for one side. We will better be able to understand whether the player playing that killer is ineffective at playing that killer and therefore does not belong in that ranking skill bracket or whether that killer/general killers is ineffective against good players and probably needs improvements.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1824210#Comment_1824210
I main Legion and i actually done the math.
Not completly correct but a very simplified way to see it is that 4% of 80 charges gen time is more then 16% of 16 charges healtime.
New thana is better then old thana unless survivors drop everything to heal and in that scenario you would win no matter which thana you use
I really wish some people would actually think about things instead of just blindly following the mass
I think the reason why this post is mentioning Thana is that it is talking about the perk in respect to Famous Wraith build done by a famous streamer named Tru3ta1ent. In Wraith's case, he used the perk for indirect lethality and information through the perk Nurse's Calling. The part that your missing is that if you hit a survivor twice, hook them and than find them again as injured as Wraith, you save so much time in the chase that any time saved from slower repairs is straight up meaningless. This true for for all killers, faster downs are better than slowing generator down. Moral of the story is that he popularized a strategy & play-style that was already discovered and known from Scratch Mirror Myers on indoor maps to be applicable on all maps. Its not really that powerful more so than just tutorial to play Wraith properly without much reward.
Even as Legion, Its not that amazing considering that Legion still has to activate his power, hit the survivor, let the survivor gain sprint burst, run up to them, suffer a 4 second fatigue such that health states are still a small time sink and that there are better perks to slow generators down than Thana(Undying+Ruin comes to mind). Like Pop goes weasel, the perk was intentionally made to be weaker after the patch. Legion used to use the perk for same reason than they made his power a special attack so that the perk sloppy butcher cannot be applied with his power to be fused with this perk. funny how all perks that belong to Nurse have historically been complained about in one form or another. Stridor Spirit, Old Nurse calling going from 32 meters to 28 meters and Thana.
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@Yords said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1819388#Comment_1819388
Okay well, Oni is balanced. He is very strong but it isn't impossible to outplay him. What you should do is take advantage of his shortcomings. For example, if he decides to dash and you just passed a wall, hide just past the corner. He will have to stop dashing to hit you or miss a swing to get you. If you are found first, just drop every pallet early and take no chances to greed. He will not get a hit on you if you play it safe meaning it will take him a long time to get his power. It is hard in solo queue, but not impossible. I myself have faced quite a few oni's and it was challenging but not impossible. The Oni thing you have to worry about is the skill of your otherwise trash solo queue teammates.
Wraith is getting another change... again. Sadly I think their change is just going to be invisibility and inabiltiy to light-burn wraith(similar to how trapper's trap cannot be sabotage anymore) . Stealth killers are huge gimmick in the game.
Their specialization relies on getting first hits but their issue is that they have to do this twice in really small time frame. Its too easy to abuse health states against them to over-commit to generators than just loop them as normal M1's as injured if they ever over commit to a chase. In short, Stealth isn't viable play style in the game at top-level and never ever has been.
Oni is m1 killer at the start, but when he gets his power, he gains instant down but more importantly, he gains mobility that is functional in loops, which allows him to outplay people in safe loops or at least force pallet drops. Generic mobility like Billy,Demo or like Freddy TP or Wraith Windstorm is not what makes a killer excel, if anything that stuff is just icing on the cake. Its their ability to use that ability to outplay people at loops and Oni fits the checklist perfectly. Wraith doesn't fit that checklist. Its simple as that. Maybe one day stealth will be like really scary if it becomes hard to heal against them and not easy to gen rush them but that is not present the game. For now wraith is scooby doo to face which will probably be for entire life cycle for DBD i think.
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@Almo said:
It's up to Survivors to punish camping. When I camp, if nobody comes for the rescue, I stop because I'm losing ground. But when they come running, even if they don't rush the hook and just hang around and they're not repairing while the one on the hook is dying, I'm still profiting.
It is true that the Emblem system does not look favorably upon camping... but the best way to stop it to not to reward it.
I know all the arguments and counter arguments about it; I've heard them over and over. :)
One of DbD's core values is "player agency". We want players to have as much input on what happens in matches as possible. Eliminating camping as a strategy removes choice from both the Killer and the Survivors; it limits gameplay possibilities. Deciding to do gens instead of rescuing the one being camped is a moral decision: choosing the good of the many over the good of the one. Sometimes, the Survivors choose the good of the one over the good of the many; when they do, they often suffer dire consequences. But all of that arises from player choice.
I will not say "camping is good gameplay in DbD" as many construe my comments to mean. But the possibility, the choice leading to it, and the choices it requires Survivors to make are all part of what makes the game great: player agency. Removing those choices only reduces the range of decisions to make, which isn't good in the long run.
We have experimented extensively with anti-camping measures. In the end, the result was always that the camper just camped harder, or we had to break fundamental systems to accomodate the anti-camping measure.
Why do you weaken perks that encourage moving away from the hook/discourage camping like pop goes weasel and thanophobia that encourages injuring as many survivors as possible. The main reason why your anti-camping measures do not work is because they never addressed camping or why camping has potential to be effective. that being... the hook death timers. unfortunately there are killers such as Hag and Trapper that are designed around this feature. maybe one day, you guys will buff monstrous shrine and make camping more obnoxious.