Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2033792#Comment_2033792
Except theres no fix for not even having to play the game. What are the Devs gonna do, buff Bloodlust? Buff the mechanic that killers cheese to make looping impossible?
you weaken tiles, like most of tilesets in this game have too long walls where there is vantage point for survivor to stand on. The walls so massive that the killer is never able to perform lunge attack regardless if they make good read or not. so like a jungle gym, you shorten the long side of the jungle gym where the pallet is and you may need shorten T or L a bit on each side where window spawns. same thing for Long-wall single pallet short wall.
The hold W problem. that's an issue with again, god pallets and health states giving too much of sprint burst. god pallets in general should not exist period. Like shack needs breakable wall on the far left -> side of the loop next to the pallet. again talking about vantage points, A common strategy with shack window is to stand on specific spot and to pay attention to the killer's red glow length to how far the killer is in the doorway to determine when to fast vault. you fix this by shifting the doorway 2-3 cm to the right. conclusively, perhaps sprint bursts of 2 seconds+recovery are just too long. maybe 1-1.5 second would make less effective. this goes into rabbit hole of exhaustion perks and their impact on the match.
Most of the changes will not really influence bad survivors because bad survivors are not able to utilize jungle gyms correctly or sprint burst off health states so you will not notice much change at lower levels.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2032854#Comment_2032854
I'm not excited for Trickster for a multitude of reasons even unrelated to MMR. Lots of issues with Trickster.
That said, I'm not excited to play Trickster or any of the other weak killers for that matter against high-level teams. We could go into a whole topic on this it's just already been said ad nauseum. The MMR system is gonna have problems.
it will not be a problem. This is the real reality of the game. I can' wait until official release of it. I have only one concern about it and that is regarding queue times. they just got to be careful about those when there is not enough killer/survivor distribution. other than that. MMR is really good.
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@Blueberry said:
Well that's the thing, you'll generally speaking only be seeing those few viable killers at the highest tier of mmr which will leaves the best of the best survivors almost always going against the same killers.
Are you excited to play Trickster vs high-level? Imagine if you could play him today with MMR on. I am enjoying playing survivor. My teammates are remarkable now. Survivor is super fun now. The killer games are very high-level so for once like last week. I enjoy challenge of playing but I can't imagine anyone playing low-tier killers like Trickster or Clown, Myers etc. in such competitive environment. Let's say Otz try to do 50 win-streaks vs actual good players.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2032244#Comment_2032244
For context, I’ve played both Freddy AND Clown since their initial releases. So therefore I’ve sunk significant time into old Freddy before Clown’s release, and into Freddy’s Rework as well. I am extremely experienced with both killers, even dominating at red ranks with old Freddy.
Despite the community’s perceived attitude that current Freddy is OP, I STILL have chosen to not use him as much now as I do Clown. Clown better meets the goals and outcomes I want while playing a match.
As for your first question, it’s already answered by me in the tagged quote: most players that try to use Clown don’t use him effectively or properly. That you claim that you’ve seen a Clown player get run by 1 survivor for 5 gens just validated what I said. I can start a chase with a healthy survivor, get them injured, and then downed within 16 seconds. This is what Clown is capable of. This is his potential when bottles are used smartly instead of just randomly lobbed anywhere.
I was trying to explain this in my post. Survivors who healthy that are going down to clown in 16 seconds is not what clown's potential is or any killer for that matter. If your ahead of a killer, even a little bit, it can take up to 10-20 seconds just to come close to the survivor, followed sprint burst+blade wipe animation from the killer grants another 22 seconds of just running forward and this is without using any pallets or windows.
The clown getting constant speed boosts and slowdowns is placebo effect and is often not making as big of an impact as one would imagine.
@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2032244#Comment_2032244
Mostly because he's punishing as hell.
You need to constantly think 5 steps ahead of the survivor. Know what places are the best for which gas to go at which loop and the slightest misthrow can mean you wasted a bottle and an oppertunity.
Couple that with Clown needing downs for his pressure and he is extremly punished for any mistakes they make.
He very much needs the blight mindset of learning how best to use your power at every loop using the knowledge of how experienced survivors run it.
I would almost argue clown is more difficult then nurse to use at full potential.
What Clown really needs is some changes that make him easier to play rather then make him stronger. For example it would be nice if the velocity of his bottles were increased a bit so you don't need to think 7 seconds in the future of where the bottle should go
I do not think he is that punishing. I think he is unrewarding and i am going explain why:
A lot of people compare Clown's gameplay to Freddy gameplay and this is understandable as both power share the ability hinder survivors. But, I don't.
I think his power is closer to what Bubba power is in term of gameplay. A lot of Bubba's do not utilize their charge system in his chainsaw effectively. When you become well-customed to timing his charges, especially with add-ons like Chili, you will precisely be able to understand how much distance you cover in 1, 2, 3 charges. Bubba moves way faster in his chainsaw sprint, so you can think of it like clown yellow bottles. If you properly plan ahead, you can approximate distances and timings for when to rev and whether you will be able to reach the survivor in time for an instant down. Of course, do not expect to be able to do this instantly, your early experiences should account in a lot of trail and error. You'll probably experience ineffective use of his charges, bumping into objects during loops, survivors getting into windows due to reving chainsaw at wrong time/too late which you will eventually get past and every down will be an instant down with good mastery.
Clowns is really similar in this regard. The hindered effect and Speed boost has a lot of trail and error. Many of approximation of distances and places to throw bottles when used in tandem can produce potential faster chases when survivors give you favorable routing to utilize it. The problem is that when both sides are thinking 7 seconds ahead with good survivor routing, it proves very challenging to get value out of his power. The power are similar in the sense that both powers are about how to approximate distances over large scale to get hits in the future.
The common counter-plays to clown such as putting pallet down early is very effective in many cases, with Bubba and his speed boost, he breaks them instantly. Not to mention that Clown needs survivors to somewhat move in straight line to throw yellow bottle ahead of him and at the exact moment of passing through gas, he has to have line of sight to simultaneously to land purple bottle to take advantage of both effects at the same time. The reward is not even an instant down, its just single hit for all this setup. Bubba needs less setup to acheive similar gap-closing capacities and he gets rewarded for it far more.
TL:DR Clown is not rewarding to play and faster chases are placebo of facing bad looping.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2032040#Comment_2032040
It’s because so few use him effectively, and also don’t slug anywhere near enough with him like the way Nurse players do.
I mean, if clown is so strong, than why is it so rare to face him in solo-queue? Even when you do face him, you barely interact with clown player because his chases are so long that he ends up losing before all 5 generators are done. With stronger killers, like Freddy, it is really rare to not at least have one chase vs Freddy as his games are much longer than clowns and not many survivors are good at looping Freddy therefore ask for negative changes for Freddy. Sometimes with stronger killer, you end up having to practically 1vs1 that strong killer for entire match if your survivor team is poor.
Just because you main clown and do not play freddy effectively does not mean that Freddy's snare are bad on "The Game" map. I feel like clown's power has huge placebo effect where it feels like the power is doing more than what it actually is.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2030200#Comment_2030200
Yeah since you can chain it with the second level windows it is one of the few literal infinite loops left in the game. The only way you're getting someone here is with certain killers, bamboozle, or they just play it really, really badly.
The top-level windows are not an infinity anymore. they used to be before balance landing got obliterated. There is special technique for killers where you can swing as you fall from rooftops to demolish that loop but yeah Myers house bottom window is really bad.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
Holding w is only effective against 7ish killers, any killer that has mobility, a ranged attack, reliable insta down, also if the survivor was injured/exposed already this isn't effective.
Sure it is an issue for those killers but that's just how the game is i honestly see no way to fix this not that it needs to be fixed in the first place.
For those killers the most effective this is against is Freddy :0, trapper, doctor, and PH since his power isn't good in the open.
For killers it works against just slightly less for reasons it's Pig, ghostface, myers, and plague. Maybe leatherface but it's risky.
This is not true at all. only 4 killers punish it. those 4 killers are Nurse, Spirit, Blight and....... Clown. Everyone else suffers from holding W. Many of teammates that you get in soloqueue would be more effective teammates if they just held W rather than attempt to loop killer and go down in 15 seconds.
Oni(demon form) and Twins(Victor form) also counter it but they have some drawbacks in their kit. Billy,legion and Wraith(Windstorm) lose less time than other killers from it but have no threat level. Its good thing that a good 80% of player-base that plays survivor does not utilize it correctly but all top-level survivor that understanding looping do. Object of obsession is a perk that further expands this problem.
I really wish there was a perk that could combine with STBFL to diminish the effectness of this strategy.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
I'm not exited to play him if he is so weak, what I'm more concerned about is having to p3 lvl 50 him when i wont even play him like i did with the twins since I'm an idiot.
To me it didn't feel like the twins were even released since it just felt god awful to play them that i stopped after a week, i hope it isn't the same for the trickster.
if you think Twins was bad, wait till you play Trickster. He's on another level. His best add-on got demolished and it was only add-on that made him remotely playable and that many players asked for it to be base-kit. Trust me, they weren't running add-on because they wanted trick shots, they were running it because his base lethality is abysmal without it and he needed reduction for how many knives it takes to down.
I actually like his playstyle, voice lines and gameplay animations. There is just something so satisfying in watching a survivor fall-down majestically when getting downed by his knives, but now nobody is going to play him hence poll that has zero excitement for new killer.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2024119#Comment_2024119
"I thought you hated exhaustion perks and they just buffed an exhaustion perk from 3->4 seconds."
Exhaustion perks are a problem. However, they don't stack. So them adding an extra Exhaustion perk is irrelevant in that sense. I'm happy with it's change because it adds more variety to the Exhaustion perks we see in games.
IE it hasn't made Exhaustion perks stronger, just simply more variety, and if we're stuck with them I'd rather at least see variety. If we're stuck with a bad feature I'd at least like that feature to be more interesting essentially.
I do not think this going to be used as an exhaustion perk. It will be more like balance landing. Survivors might opt to run Smack down+Dead hard now. More hold W gameplay. Thrilling. I am not complaining, they improved killer perks. I'm surprised they finally released a decent killer perk after so many disappointing patches. I can't wait to play Distressing+Starstruck with calm add-on doctor. Sounds super fun. I wonder what new clickbait title from content creator is going to be: GLOBAL expose doc?
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@Blueberry said:
So in summary:
Killer was extremely weak, got essentially zero buffs, improved some visual QoL, and gutted one of his best addons.
So of all the changes offered to fix him he got none and he's still just as bad but also got one of his best addons gutted. So now we're looking towards at least another 6 months till he gets a possible tweak...assuming he even gets any good changes then. Well that's a new release excitement killer.
They say they don't have time between PTB and official release to do much which is understandable, but then how about we actually release them in a decent state so none of this is necessary in the first place? This happens on almost every chapter...hence why they're constantly having to back track to do killer buffs/reworks years later. This is a self perpetuating problem and they are creating more work for themselves.
Pretty happy with the survivor perk changes, some fair buffs for them overall.
Look on the bright side, If he gets extremely under performing statistics and abysmal pickrate, he might actually become better after 1 year. I thought you hated exhaustion perks and they just buffed an exhaustion perk from 3->4 seconds.
My hope is change of heart towards him in 6 months. rip his only useful add-on.
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The changes are not surprising and expected. I bet there is going new tier in people tier-lists. we're refer to it as Trickster tier. Trash-tier.
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@Yords said:
I really think this is literally the best DLC for dead by daylight since like Huntress. The huntress is very simple, and one of the strongest killers in the game with counterplay and a very high skill cap. When I say best, I mean a killer with great overall design and gameplay. It all comes down to gameplay.
Same for Oni really, all you do is smack survivors and take their blood to power up whenever it is necessary. The Oni is a great killer and is strong with counterplay as well. He is a little bit more complex, but at his core (a power burst killer) he is still pretty easy and simple.
Why Oni is very fun for both sides:
The Oni is an awesome killer and if anything he relatively weak against good survivors (because of just one design flaw). He encourages fun gameplay for the whole team because his power builds up faster when he hits healthy survivors. So what Oni players do is get the initial hit and farm the rest of the blood from one survivor, or quickly switch to another survivor which is fun for the survivors and satisfying as Oni to see your power bar go up since there is more interaction with both the killer and the survivors. He looks awesome, has good lore, and has a strong power. To prevent him from getting his power, survivors are encouraged to heal their teammates promoting more team play. It becomes very intense when the Oni is in blood fury mode and becomes very intimidating, making him a threat or a challenge which adds to the overall fun.
So we have a killer who looks awesome, is fun to play as or against, has good lore, a power that has a decent skill cap, encourages team play and more interactions with different survivors, and has a strong power.
His one design flaw:
The one design flaw he has is that he relies on the survivors messing up to get his power. Any decent survivor on a loop with a safe pallet that knows dropping it early will severely hurt the Oni can do that. All the survivors have to do to not let him power up is play safe which the Oni can do nothing about. He then just becomes an m1 killer for most of the match, and by the time he gets his power, it will be too late. But that is honestly the only design flaw with his power (minus the bad perks he comes with).
So what made BHVR make this great chapter?:
This chapter definitely stands out among other ones for sure. Look at him and the Legion for example (current Legion). The Legion is a killer who has the power that can keep survivors injured pretty much the whole game, but has no lethality and is a normal m1 killer. He is probably fun for the survivors because they can mess with him and loop him easily, but the killer playing him might not like him. Some survivors may not even like him because of his mending (which isn't even that bad honestly, I don't see why it is so boring) and little interaction when he stabs someone and leaves.
Look at every other killer up to Huntress in terms of fun gameplay and design. How come BHVR did a fantastic job on the cursed legacy chapter and just meh on the others? I am not calling out BHVR, but I mean it is a pretty clear thing to see and a good question. This chapter was my favorite (besides silent hill) and is just really an awesome patch. Did BHVR have more people working on it, did they spend more time and resources on this one, or were they motivated to make something great for the community? I just want to know why this chapter was so much better when compared to other ones.
To me, Oni is just an updated Myers. Myers is so bad vs strong players even when he is running arguably his strongest perks Bamboozle & IF in Evil within 3 build, he's still struggling. Oni is buffed Myers but I'd say out of highly rated killers, he's easiest of them to escape purely because he is so loud that you can hear his growls across walls/when he vaults making him a very easy m1 killer to loop with strong tiles. His power is strong but it has inherent slowdown, so all the time efficiency that you get from instant downs is counter-acted by the time it takes him to charge his power(Myers has this problem as well) and even than, the power does not last for very long time and single successful time-out completely reset the Oni, often game losing. In term of strength vs super strong teams, not really there but better than half other releases they do. On the flipside, he decimates bad/mediocre surviviors faster than anyone in the killer cast.
Cursed Legacy is more of a chapter for players that used to play Billy, but no longer play him because he sucks, so almost everyone who used to be a billy main is now an Oni main or Bubba main.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2013986#Comment_2013986
"I am taking this sentence as " I do not this perk". If this was sarcasm in the sentence than I could not spot it."
Why didn't you quote the post you literally commented on? It elaborates everything I've said...
"I'm totally fine with anti-camp/anti-tunnel perks. The problem is the survivors can abuse this and force killers into camping/tunneling even when they don't want to. Things like during end game when the gates are powered or just when you have that person hooked in your 3 gen and there's no reason for you to leave.
This just feels very punishing to the killer for situations that are sometimes not his fault but instead forced by the survivors."
"Why would it be busted? Current decisive strike already does this when you are near exit gate and new decisive strike is ONLY good for this."
Because that's just for the rescued, not both, which is how this would be.
"Facecamping killers in EGC is extremely boring and in my opinion is one of the least fun aspects for survivor. Many days that I am playing survivor, I am not even interested in dealing with it and I get to the EGC very often. Its not even just leatherface. its long-list of killers that just have incredible facecamping. Just to name few Huntress, Billy, Leatherface, Infinity EV3 Myers, Virtually all killers that use STBFL at high stack e.g(Deathslinger, Freddy,Doctor, Demo,Pig are common). EGC for killer is really killer-sided. its why a lot of your games, you can get low kill count and than half the time, survivors too potato to leave so you end up getting 3k for what should been an easy 2-3+ escape. The only time where EGC is looking more survivor favored is when survivors run 4 Adrenaline or use many BT which you should expect to see a lot more post-decisive strike changes with prove thyself."
I find it hard to believe that you are actually face camped that much. I've been face camped like once in the past maybe 2 weeks?
Also once you're in the EGC the saves are not supposed to be easy. That's the point. Rather than asking for this you should be asking for the devs to give the killer a reason to leave the hook in EGC.
I am not really facecamped that much, if anything I am usually last person to get hooked in most matches because all my teammates end up dying. I just find the EGC very anti-fun for survivor to the point that certain days, I rather just instantly leave through exit gate than deal with that killer stuff.
Facecamping as survivor is like an M1 killer like Myers trying to win chases vs 10 god pallets on "The game"+ 15 more safe pallets for the killer. It is not exactly thrilling gameplay.
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@Blueberry said:
Wow does this sound broken and completely unhealthy for the game lol.
"Wow does this sound broken and completely unhealthy for the game lol."
I am taking this sentence as " I do not this perk". If this was sarcasm in the sentence than I could not spot it.
"To make it counterable to something like Leatherface in EGC though you now make it busted against the vast majority of killers."
Why would it be busted? Current decisive strike already does this when you are near exit gate and new decisive strike is ONLY good for this.
Facecamping killers in EGC is extremely boring and in my opinion is one of the least fun aspects for survivor. Many days that I am playing survivor, I am not even interested in dealing with it and I get to the EGC very often. Its not even just leatherface. its long-list of killers that just have incredible facecamping. Just to name few Huntress, Billy, Leatherface, Infinity EV3 Myers, Virtually all killers that use STBFL at high stack e.g(Deathslinger, Freddy,Doctor, Demo,Pig are common). EGC for killer is really killer-sided. its why a lot of your games, you can get low kill count and than half the time, survivors too potato to leave so you end up getting 3k for what should been an easy 2-3+ escape. The only time where EGC is looking more survivor favored is when survivors run 4 Adrenaline or use many BT which you should expect to see a lot more post-decisive strike changes with prove thyself.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2013343#Comment_2013343
Which encourages not healing and just gen rushing.
I'm totally fine with anti-camp/anti-tunnel perks. The problem is the survivors can abuse this and force killers into camping/tunneling even when they don't want to. Things like during end game when the gates are powered or just when you have that person hooked in your 3 gen and there's no reason for you to leave.
This just feels very punishing to the killer for situations that are sometimes not his fault but instead forced by the survivors.
your previous sentence suggests that you are not ok with anti-camp perks. I do not mind anti-camp perks in EGC because your not realistically suppose to be in a winning position in 4vs1 unless your using NOED. Its like survivors expecting they should escape when they're last person alive every time in EGC. I do not like BT during the game(5 gen progression) because it allows survivors to hook trade without any risk and the perk in general remove skill-cap of safe unhook saves. in EGC though, Its legit needed vs some killers like Leatherface.
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@frysauce01 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2009081#Comment_2009081
Before I continue, just prefacing that if you and I were discussing this face to face, my tone would be respectful and genuinely curious:
But if traveling the entire length of the map only results in ~3 second difference, wouldn't that also mean that traveling around a tile results in a fraction of a difference between the two speeds?
In terms of map pressure, he is correct. when it comes to going to point A to point B, there is very little difference. Its like every 22 seconds is like 1 second for 110% lacking behind so in some sense, if your using a perk like pop goes weasel, the duration of pop goes weasel is like 42 seconds compared to that of 115% killer, 40 if counting the kick animation. General mobility in the game like Billy or freddy TP is highly overrated.
In chase, it makes all the difference. a 110% killer catches up to a survivor 33% slower in relation to the survivor running speed or you could say that 115% killer is 50% faster. This is important for other killers because they need get into range to perform a lunge attack but ranged killers are expected to injure survivors with their range power so they are not suppose to require the need to gap-close a survivor. Its just that... his range attack is not equal to 1 health state worth of damage and the movement speed decrease while in throwing mode is more severe because compare to Huntress and Deathslinger, they do not spend as much time at reduced speeds as he does in his throwing mode. Deathslinger is almost never slowed by his ADS because he quickscopes and Huntress only needs to land 1 hatchet while he needs to land 16 daggers for a down which takes way longer. Your either in throwing mode moving at 92% throwing daggers that lowers your speed even further up to 60% or your M1 killer at 110%.
Doubt they'd ever increase his base movement speed. Maybe they'd increase his movement when in throwing mode so you can better follow the survivor to land that many daggers consecutively though I believe he has yellow and grey add-on that does that.
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@Pilot said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2003673#Comment_2003673
Oni / Billy are harder to play IMO. They can't do a 270* degree turn, not even a 180*. Go to 2:45, slow it down and tell me what you think.
If you ask me, for now, people are not going to be vocal about it. But once people figure it out how to do it constantly and develop muscle memory it might be a problem, especially after Blight is going to get his FOV fixed and we're gonna see A LOT more Blight players. At least, this is my prediction.
Idk really. It seems a little too much for me. A good blight player can destroy but if he also knows this he'll be unstoppable.
This is cheat almost equal to a hack because it gives unfair advantage that nobody can traditionally acquire.
Whats an interesting about these particular types of hacks/cheats is that they're form of rebellion against current authority. Its not exclusive to one side either. Survivors that use Stretch Res(1080x1080 resolution) which is non-native resolution do so because their objective is to expand their field of view so that killers have even less of a chance to mindgame at loops. Its same thing for people brighten the red glow.
In this case, Its the killer rebelling against their lunge angle and finding a cheat through hardware to increase it further. I remember a time where killers could hear survivors across walls with perfect volume within the game until Spirit came into the game and now all the volume in the chase is completely drowned out by the chase music. As for why people do this, Its like prohibition of alcohol in America in 1930's. Government make a law to prohibit alcohol, people break the law and go to jail, eventually everyone breaks the law and eventually the law dissolves itself. In games, you either fix the hack or you ban people for using it by putting some tracker where the server just disconnects+ban you or you change the base game such way it does not affect the game. For spirit, they lower the volume of survivors while in a chase so that music covers it up, but most spirit drop the chase on purpose so they can hear the survivors footsteps, grass movements, grunts of pain etc.
In the end, they might not do anything for Blight because say 100,000 people play blight worldwide, if only top 200 blight uses it, its small percentage of games. Killers are suppose to be threat in a chase and imposing strange regulations to limit their performance is an odd way to balance a killer. Its like imagine if Nurse could only lunge 90 degree's after performing a chain blink. Its just stupid. you could probably still escape a 270 degree turning blight but he'll be stronger in a chase than other blights.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2001257#Comment_2001257
I like the idea!
I also thought of a 2 or 4m TR reduction per survivor fully infected. Nothing "anti-fun" per say but a little extra danger in refusing to cleanse.
I probably like the gen slow down a little more though as Plague is more susceptible to gen rush than most killers in a meta where most killers are already very susceptible lol.
She is not meant to be stealth killer. She's meant to be instant down OR ranged killer. I still think that if developer wanted to boost her power-level by a lot. The two things they should do is remove cooldown slowdown after vomiting so that M2->M1 combo is more fluid on vile purge and allow corrupt puke to hit two times in a single puke launch. I think she would be among the best killers and her play-rate would skyrocket.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1998325#Comment_1998325
I wouldn't want any of those changes, they're terrible.
3-4% speed buff is nuts. That's an extreme bandaid fix and would cause a slew of other problems that I don't think you realize. Not a healthy change at all.
Gens do go too fast but just adding duration is not the solution. That is boring for survivors. We add time to gens by adding a secondary objective that is fun and engaging. Holding m1 for longer is neither of those.
5th perk slot is another bandaid fix. An extra perk slot doesn't fix the problems.
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What we need is better map design, mandatory secondary objectives for survivors, and to fix a lot of unhealthy second chance perks in the game.
There are also quite a few substantially under performing killers.
Balance can be tweaked for high ranks without hurting low ranks.
I think you need to be way more specific about what exactly in map design needs to change as that term is far too ambiguous and what second chance perks need changes and in what specific way would you change them?
As far as objectives are concerned, the survivors did not accept an OPTIONAL secondary objective in Undying+Ruin, they certainly will not accept a mandatory objective.
I do agree with thread that Trickster is not in good spot and will probably be the same after coming out of the PTB with no potential future. Its DBD so there is no surprise there.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1995998#Comment_1995998
Not at all, he cannot pressure multiple survivors as he has to shot, reel in, hit, reload. Even a good deathslinger won't be able to get more than 2 downs with his power at best if survivors spread out and use LOS objects.
Huntress can literally throw 3 or so hatchets by the time deathslinger does that regardless of addons used and she barely slows down when doing so. A god tier huntress will down all survivors near her out of position and can snowball like crazy, deathslinger doesn't have nearly as much flexibility as huntress all he outperforms her in is ending 1v1's faster on average but huntress can do about the same situationally.
Not only that but if gens get split deathslinger is screwed, huntress can at least down 2 or so survivors to pressure survivors off gens and she can try to snip survivors, deathslinger just doesn't have good options at that point in the game.
edit: There is a reason you don't see either of these killers in tournaments but the best huntress beats the best deathslinger. As for skill it is way harder to land hatchets at a good range than at any range with deathslinger that includes trick shots through small gaps.
Disagree. Deathslinger is way harder in term of technical skill. for a killer that has 1 shot with tiny pixel accuracy. He's easily 2nd hardest killer in the entire game. Unfortunately, His reward for landing these pixel perfect shots is no greater than landing a hatchet. Technically, he has more opportunity to fire and get hits than huntress does but in practical terms, Huntress is better because she capitalizes on advantageous situations more successfully than he does.
I mean perfect example is Huntress basements hooks, if your in the basement, your pretty not getting out. her M2 into M1 is one fastest downs in entire game. Just in general any form of group-ups against Huntress is very devastating. she can knock off many health states in quick and rapid succession. Deathslinger in same situations is not really that great. when people are group up, he gets maybe 1 or 2 hits, not even a down. in term of basement defense, only really strong if he has 8 stacks of STBFL but strong teams never really let him get to that point. If anything, all generator are done before that occurs. If anything, my experience when playing him vs super strong teams is survivors are literally running away from generators before I even get there despite the fact that my TR is 16 with M&A while using LoS to hide his tall silhouette.
I wouldn't say that either of these killers are good split pressure, but Huntress can slug if given a good opportunity to do so where as he really just is not really good at it and that gives her the opportunity to apply global pressure on the map. Deathslinger feels very one dimensional where he has to rely on kill-rushing the survivors but when survivors really good at predicting his shots, every shot is pretty hard flick to hit so its pretty hard to be consistent instant chase ender compare to Huntress more generous hitbox. Deathslinger just has extremely low margin of error, but the games that your aim is on point and survivor is particular bad at movement, Deathslinger has some pretty landslide victories but those same victories would be same result for huntress.
Basically what I would say is that Huntress has lower risk for higher turn reward where Deathslinger is high risk for same high turn reward due to massive technical skill required to nail every shot. In theory, Deathslinger should be stronger, but in practice, I have never face deathslinger where I haven't made him miss at least half his shots. The really good huntress though, if your their LOS, your basically toast for how good their aim is but that is why Huntress counter-play is more focused on limiting the number of opportunities(From her wind-up) that she can shoot rather than raw mechanical movement/prediction in juking a hatchet.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1988901#Comment_1988901
Ok but he literally has the same chase gameplay of survivors trying to avoid getting hit with the ranged power the only difference is survivors have to move more and can't use pallets to prevent getting injured like Deathslinger.
If you can aim there isn't a reason to play him over the other 2 options and i know that is what was said about Deathslinger and Huntress but there was a major difference there and that was a lack of counterplay and Deathslinger being more stealthy. The Trickster is exactly the same as Deathslinger in that department the difference is Deathslinger will get faster downs and the Trickster is better at dealing with bodyblocking.
how is he skill-less if he requires more hits to down survivors. it means you have to be more accurate with his ability.
I do not think tomahawks and bolt action rifles and machine gun use same skills. they're based off flick skill.
He is more of machine gunner, so he is more about tracking skill than flick.
Both characters require different skill-sets. I think its very early to say he is too weak but he sure takes a lot of hits in term of tracking skill to be effective. I predict that his counter-play is going to be zig zaging to make tracking as hard as possible.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
This killer is basically deathslinger but weaker, he can easily down survivors at open loops with short walls by just spamming but a good deathslinger does the same and is faster at it.
btw he needs 8 knifes to hit to injure you, with his piercing + ricochet addons he can do it with 2-4 knifes with luck he is very addon dependent.
I think he's closer to plague where you charge up vile purge and have to hit consecutive amount of knives to infect someone until they lose health state. Like old legion but with skillshot component with more counter-play.
First impression is that it takes too many knives to down survivors. I am not sure how they thought that this 110% killer is competing with killers like... Nurse... Spirit, Huntress in term of power-level. Also the realism of being able to tank 10+ knives to the face is even better. are we facing survivors or super-humans?
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i mean, I still end up 3-4k more than 6/10 of my games with clown like the previous version of him. Its just that every game that i play with clown is knife edge of losing, like 1 gen left, often 20-80% complete on final generator complete. 2 of the games are often 2 man escapes and on rare occasions, you'll get 3 or 4 man escape vs the hard teams. Its just that I do not feel like killers that master/decent at a killer are suppose to be at at brink of defeat every game, most of the perceived strong killers when a lot of time is put into them are will decimate vs the majority. I feel like there so many cases if you could control your speed boosts more precisely, you could end chases far more quickly and efficienciently with proper bottle usage. Its too bad that developers decided to add a painful activation delay that you cannot out skill like you can with other killers powers.
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I mean the first badham pallet is unsafe with every killer. T-L wall is also unsafe. It already has mindgame at one of the window. The other stuff he doesn't show or say is that you can throw 2 purple tonics and still get the same hit. for example fracture cowshed loop, you can throw 1 on each side, push the survivor into first cloud, than push the survivor into second cloud and they'll be hindered for entire duration. Also can apply to T-L wall in some instances. At the shack, you can medium vault the window on like 2/3 of the wall but he can also double back so you need to pay attention to red glow but I think most clowns will just walk forward in most cases.
its big telltale that people need make videos to showcase that clown's power is useful. Look at freddy rework, it was immediately obvious that he was stronger killer after his change. I think clown's change was not made to make him stronger, it was made to LOWER his skill-floor and make him easier to play. what signs point to this? Reload buff making his bottles more spammable needing less precision and less punishment for missing i.e more newbie friendly and the fact that yellow bottle is conveniently only useful when the survivor is 15+ meters away meaning that new clown never needs to land long-range purple bottles ever. he can just throw yellow bottles for guaranteed speed-ups for same gap-close distance i.e more newbie friendly.
Clown's problem was never that he was too hard. Clown's problem was that his ability had NO reward and that it encouraged survivors to play in such a way that is detrimental to the killer(Play safe). In reality, killers profit from survivors greeding loops because it allows them to mindgame in certain instances to get hits, e.g survivors looping a filler pallet one too many times resulting in a hit+pallet drop. If everyone just drops every safe pallet, than you do not get opportunity to mindgame the vast majority of loops hence you get no downs and no kill pressure along with bad early games i.e 3-4 gens in 1 hook.
Here's the big kicker, most of the killers that people think are strong or were considered strong ALL punished early pallet droping
Nurse (Does not care)
Old billy(He had instantsaw and droping every pallet resulted in instant pallet breaks, else you get to face his curving)
Spirit(Drop pallets are still unsafe because phase walk mindgames)
Huntress(Recklessly dropping pallets will just result in axes during the pallet drop animation)
Current leatherface(Instantly breaks pallets+punishes greeding looping)
The other killers that get played a lot are meta driven(Freddy -Gen defense perks) or partially counter early pallet droping(Deathslinger,Oni,Doctor,)
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I played vs only 2 clowns, both were 3 man escapes on Hawkins and Lery. my only complaint with current clown is the 2.5 second delay on yellow gas, I think he has some potential to make some safe loops into unsafe with interesting mindgames but he is not there yet. Maybe wait 1-2 years for some updates. for now he can take backseat bench until they decide to make him playable.
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@Kellie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1971352#Comment_1971352
Not necessarily. If a survivor has a habit of faking vaults, next time they run to a vault don't lunge and wait.
he's not talking pointblank in front of the killer. He's talking about vaults like shack or T-L walls where the survivor and killer have to make genuine reads by predicting the vault/faking the vault.
Spirit already has counter-play, its about making reads on her phase walk movement and doing unpredictable jukes. OP was just facing a Spirit of top-tier skill caliber that was correctly predicting his jukes. There is reason why she's 2nd best killer in the game. For some reason, people think that counter-play = 100% full proof. Its not suppose to be 100% full proof, its meant to be 50/50 reads and if your facing strong spirit player, their reads are going to be difficult.
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@Hex_Salt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1971180#Comment_1971180
Exactly its the top percent that the rules are based on, the ones that are ridiculously efficient on gens. If you're on a gen the whole time until the gen is completed then ruin has had no effect on that survivor. I personally think forget ruin, gens should regress automatically but that's a different story
To add to my previous post,
Tru3 has some pretty controversial opinions about the game. if he yield a tournament and he wants good players to join the tournament, he'd probably have to make sure entire team is like rank 1 and maybe he'd have to vet players, like you have to beat his clown or some dogshit killer to enter the tournament. you have to realize that survivor is also pretty powerful when you run very optimized builds with 4 items such as med kit flashlight etc. with good perks like exhaustion, prove thyself, full luck builds, BT, OoO, DS etc. Maybe someone would enter the tournament and use some very unorthodox setup where like you run 1 person running self-care+botany+desperate measures and just constantly bodyblock a freddy from downing a teammate that is looping the killer.
Judging from his perception, he also believes that every killer should play like Freddy where the objective of the game for killer should be to chase survivors for 12 chases and if you successful in winning the mindgames at loops, than you should be rewarded with game slowdown(Like freddy add-on's) in the form of Hex:Ruin. He does not like certain aspects of the game like Hatch, NOED, all forms of camping(Hag-type gameplay), slugging, 3 gen, Mori's as he believe that they are cheap shortcuts to undermining winning. Basically he thinks those strategies are plaster fixes and unskillful methods of winning that interfere with natural progression of normal hook-chase gameplay.
You know how certain survivors used to say like "Infectious Fright Oni is disgusting" or "Stridor Spirit" or "Forever Freddy". Well they should be strong and challenging with their best perks. The attitude that this is fun challenge to conquest, not "Nerf Freddy" or "Nerf spirit" unfun reeeee. If you design a killer like Ghostface whoses sole objective is to stealth-instant down than he is suppose to be effective and reliable at instant down-stealth play style and maybe the killer should have perks that facilitate that particular play style similar to how Stridor facilitates Spirit's play-style. Where I disagree with Tru3 is that I do not think you should generic try to plaster fix the game with single generic perk, otherwise, you can just plaster fix the game devour hope. It would be super boring and dull to face same thing every single game. The killers are all suppose to be challenging in their own unique way based off their playstyle/kit. Its just that most of the killer cast unique-play style is pretty weak and lackluster vs good players.
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@Claudette_Baguette said:
If you think a killer needs ruin ... idk what to say. I 4k all the time at rank 1 without ruin, the games are so easy.
I win 90% of the time. The other 10% are good SWF with a good map, good perks and items. Well I just accept that loss and move on. No need to complain about killers being too weak to be honest... You can win the majority of your games as killer easily so why complain about those few games where you just lost? Often its due to random bugs that caused you to lose a down or really good map layout for survivors, that's not in your hand.
Most people 4k really easily because most survivors at rank one are not that good and solo survivors are an easy 4k as well.
This is exactly why tru3's rules have permanent ruin. he believes that the 90% of survivors are terrible at the game, so much so that they would lose to every killer with no perks/no add-on. he is balancing the game around the 10% of survivors because he believes that killers is under powered vs good players. Permanent Hex:Ruin is his way of balancing weak killers with dysfunctional powers not named Nurse and Spirit.
Besides, experienced survivors would laugh at permanent ruin. From my personal experience, when I was facing old Undying+ruin, I would escape with survivor many times with random solo players with Ruin being up the entire game. you do that by using the tile sets as survivor effectively and looping the killer for long time while your teammates do generators. if you get good teammates that loop well, you should be doing generators. None of hex totems are really that strong and the guy that weakened Hex:Lullaby on doc should get better at skill checks. even then, Hex totems are easy to destroy when you learn the generic spawns.
I think his tournament rules are mostly about balancing the game for people that understand the game and are not your teammates in soloqueue that go down in 30 seconds in every chase. I do not agree entirely with his point of view. I do think good survivors can beat most killers with ease if skilled but i do not think that permanent ruin is right solution to the problem.
that is my 2 cents on it.
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I definitely do not aim for 4 kills every match despite being competitive. I just want the game to reward my skill when using playing a killer. For example, if 12 out of 15 phase walks as spirit, I land a hit and I am decimating the survivor in a chase, I expect to be winning that match. I think most killers want their efforts to be rewarded whether it is landing nurse blinks, landing clown bottles or using wraith stealth effectively.
Its the same for survivor, survivor expect to escape when they're outplaying the killer and winning the chases. depending on teammates, you should be able to get unhooks, heals and complete generators when your survivor team is doing well in chases. Its just that most of the time, Survivors are able to escape even when half the team was not playing very well and being able to effectively use a killer power often yields no reward when survivors are playing well and it has little impact on the match(as vast majority of killer powers are really bad/easy to counter-play).
As people have already stated, Kill rate is nothing more than a final result. Its not good statistic for balance. Its only good statistic for finding out how good a specific player is at playing that killer(assuming no facecamping, noed etc.). Average hooks and hook progression is a way better statistic for judging average balance of the game. Ideally a killer should get 7-8 hooks on average per game, however how many hooks a killer gets is based off survivor's skill in a chase & coordination on generators. If everyone really skilled at the chase and optimize the objective(as a team), than a killer will not get many hooks. Stronger killers have more opportunity to set up mindgames(opportunities to get hits), so the killer's skill matters more and has more input on outcome of a match. weaker killers less input on the match and often their abilities/tools they have to work with either do not work(too easy to hard-counter) or are ineffective/not rewarding to use in general.
devs should not focus on statistics, they should focus on gameplay interaction between the killer/survivor above all else. I am not sure how I would describe this, but the other important aspect should be to focus on functionality of the creation in gameplay over its effectiveness. If something is meant to be good at stealth, than it should focus on being very good at stealth and not worry about its overall statistic in relation to others. These two factors preserve fun aspect of the game and fun should be major goal for both sides.
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@Blueberry said:
If the Spirit is winning against survivors running Iron Will and she's not running Stridor, those survivors are complete potatoes.
Even semi competent survivors in this scenario would trash a Spirit. This turns every Spirit play into her guessing.
Can you still 4k the majority of your matches even at rank 1 without Stridor and them running Iron Will? Of course.
This doesn't descredit my first two statements because the majority of the survivor player base is potatoes.
It's like saying I can 4k regularly at rank 1 with Clown using no perks or addons. Does this mean Clown is strong? No, it just means most people aren't good. Even a semi decent team would destroy this.
People get disillusioned by kill rates and misinterpret what they convey. IE correlation vs causation.
I've been doing clown rank 1 no perks/no add-on challenge which is what I typically do after new killer/reworked killer comes out for a week to gauge their base strength. let's just say... that playing clown no add-on/no perks is good way to develop mental depression for killer.
The correlation vs causation is probably whats makes developers hold back killers in general and makes killers feel very miserable/less powerful than they should be at.
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@TicTac said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1955817#Comment_1955817
Sprintboost needs exhaustion management, but its not that hard to use midchase. So while i agree with you that the activation makes lithe and balance weaker, this doesnt apply to sprintboost.
Sprintboost is in my opinion the harder to use but better version of dead hard. For example i waste my sprintboost while repairing so i have after gen completion 10sec exhaustion left.
yeah but what happens if the killer shows up at 20th second of exhaustion left?. I understand 99% exhaustion sprint burst trick, its just that... its not reliable and the reward is what dead hard already does anyway.
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@TicTac said:
Dead hard can be a free health state. Under the right conditions.
But what is with sprintboost? When you use it right, you get a speedboost like from a hit. You dont need to be injured. It counters dead zones, where dead hard is useless. Sprintboost is harder to use, but its stronger.
Lithe and balance can extend a chase, too, but the activation conditions make them weaker rhen dh and sb. But someone with them can still use the speedboost in a straight line and holding w. How much time does that waste without using a loop?
I think the basic problem with chase perks is that loops are too strong. You cant afford as killer to lose so much time bc of a perk when you need a lot of time for the standards two hits in a chase.
what your missing is that survivor is not just about wasting most total-time. Its about waste the most CRITICAL total time. If 3 survivors on a generators and your chase lasts 30-60 extra seconds. that's 30-60 extra seconds on all 3 generators. The other thing that people fail realize about dead hard is that it creates psychology that your able to down someone when there was no chance for you to ever get down in safe loop design.
This is in part why other exhaustion perks are not used as much on good loopers. Dead hard attracts commitment on the killer. The other exhaustion perks such as Sprint burst/Lithe/Head on DIVERT ATTENTION away from the killer. they make you not a juicy target. I mean often killers not chase you if your 20 seconds away from them and you sprint burst, but if you wait for them to approach, you could just been running to a loop instead of walking, so the perk wasn't effective. Dead hard hits hardest when it works and its easiest trigger condition to fulfill. Only old balance landing was really comparable to it. SB was mostly only used when exhaustion was recoverable while running because it was so spammable.
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@Moundshroud said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1953595#Comment_1953595
Particularly when the most outrageous claims often come with a statement that says I've got 2K+ hours and I'm a Red Rank Killer and Survivor and got to them in less than a week... yadda.... yadda... yadda. Yeah, I do wish that accounts here had to be linked to a specific Dead by Daylight Steam (or whatever) account and we got to SEE their credentials; I really do.
I mean, this is the type of posts that BVHR has to put up with. It could be someone whose like purple rank and struggles with the game but I think its more likely someone that is rank 1 survivor that does not roflstomp the killer hard enough and does not win enough. if anything, most of what he wrote is not even true. top-tiers killers have only gotten worse. Nurse,Spirit & Billy are considerably worse than what they used to be. Freddy and Huntress are likely to be next on chopping-block. Apart from Tinkerer become average info/stealth perk, all the relevant perks that slowdown generators have become worse & ever since plague(which is like 10 chapters), there hasn't been a single killer perk added to the game. Killer updates are marginal improvements, They're better than what they were but nothing that strong team can't handle.
Its really just git gud at the end of the day as it always was for survivor.
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@WiiFitTrainer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1950438#Comment_1950438
This is pretty much my opinion on clown currently.
Otz had a video a few months back on a killer tier list or something, and the thing he said about clown and why he didn't like him was because his entire power is basically based on hitting a survivor a tiny amount faster than you would vs regular m1 chasing. And with his reloading you ultimately lose that time you saved. I felt this was a pretty good summary of clown.
I completely agree with otz opinion. I have exact same experience with him. that is why i rate him as worst. I think playing clown is probably most stressful experience in playing killer ever. Its like all clown forum mains are like purples ranks or something and never go against strong survivors or do not really care if they lose or not so regardless for how bad or good the clown changes would went, they would say its good either way.
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@OniWantsYourMacaroni said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1950092#Comment_1950092
I would definetely say that his sonic tonic helps him dealing with a lot of safe pallets,even if they are pre thrown
Example:
1 example would be at 6:50
People underestimate the sonic tonic
People show these clips but do not realize that survivor is LOOPING bad. The Kate was looping wide...... Lesson 101 in looping, ALWAYS STICK TO THE SIDE OF THE WALL OF THE LOOP. It makes your looping more efficient. any other killer that is strong at the chase would got hit there. Deathslinger could shoot there, Huntress could throw hatchets Realistically Dowsey would down that survivor with any killer as skill-level is low. This is not how you play vs clown either. I am not sure about new game map yet because its still relatively new, I need more games on it as survivor but that pallet looks very safe. Pallets that are safe, you can just camp the pallet and slide over. Clown has to break them as pallets are always fast vaults regardless of gas.
OP never says why Clown is underrated. Underrated at what is the question? as PerfectlyPink, says,Clown is bad at every conceivable metric in the game. yes even the 1vs1 because other killers have BETTER 1vs1 than clown. they down faster. The only time clown is average at best is when he has Red head pinky finger because the instant down allows him to slug/snowball like other instant down killers, but why even play clown over just playing an actual instant down killer like Bubba or Oni. Ironically add-on has nothing to do with clown's actual power and just showcases instant downs being more useful than clown's entire power.
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@DBD78 said:
Yeah they could have done much more. But good that they did not make him a lot stronger because then he would have been fun for a while, and survivors would complain and then he would get nerfed. Now he won't get nerfed so that is something positive.
I think his post is saying that Clown already got nerfed and that he feels like he is playing half a character by only using purple bottle as the yellow bottle is unrewarding. It looks like its clown main player that well... gave up on his own character.
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@[Deleted User] said:
yup thats exactly what it is. Bringing back 360s because survivors complained.
I thought they know that 360's do not work vs good killers. what. The survivor animations are really good. its UI that everyone complains about. Like red on red UI? UI that appears in 4 different places on the screen? whoever did the UI is complete amateur. same with Clown balance. Survivor animation is like only good thing that came out of this entire update.
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@SirCracken said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1944024#Comment_1944024
They are almost completely un-beatable if they use Devour and play correctly. I cannot express enough how much you are underestimating them. Any good Twin's player knows that using Victor to injure people is one of the worst things you can do. His biggest strength, the killer's strength as a whole, is using Victor to down and slug already injured people. The comparison to the other killers you mentioned is not even remotely close to the Twins as no one but them can pressure gens, camp the hook, and still get DH tokens.
The surprise mori has been removed since the latest update. If a survivor is downed by any means once you reach 3 DH tokens everyone will get the exposed notification. Doesn't make the combo with Twins any less broken however.
People DC against every killer for every reason under the sun. How is that even relevant to what I am saying?
You do realise that Twins can just straight up win the game by camping with Victor? Unlike other killers that sacrifice gen pressure, Charlotte can keep people off gens and Victor can punish anyone going for a save. Given the right map RNG, Charlotte can even deny gen repairs by body blocked them and then switching to Victor, who can instantly down the hooked person after they are saved.
It's a frankly disgusting tactic that survivors can not play around by any means beyond rushing the gens that the killer isn't guarding. But the devs haven't decided to nerf it. So until they do, and hopefully make the Twins a more interesting killer as a whole, I'm going to tell people how broken they are.
so the devour hope Twin strategy is victor camping a totem and Charlotte being 115% killer with no power. You do realize that crouching in victor shriek radius does not alert/show killer instinct to Charlotte, right? Crouch->Cleanse totem. so that strategy does not work vs anyone with understanding on how Twins works.More over, its unlikely that victor can defend totem while also being able to camp hook unless your lucky to get a hook and be next to the totem, if that happens, its bad play on survivors part. M1 killers are insanely easy to loop so survivors shouldn't be going down in the first place if they're good at looping.
as for slugging and camping hooks, its not like the game does not have anti-slug perks, a common strategy to deal with victor's camping of hooks is to let the person that just got unhooked get hit, than kick victor, than heal slugged survivor, we're gonna live forever is really good for picking up slugs.
Victor himself has a lot of counter-play. he can't vault over strong windows and he can't break pallets. The twins themselves take a lot of skill to play properly. they have relatively poor synergy with most of the common information perks, thus the killer player needs to use his game-sense to find survivors while using Victor. Victor pounce is skill shot, a single miss will allow survivors to kick victor and waste twins time. no clue where you got the idea that Twins is unbeatable. if anything, I'd say they're underrated, they do not get played enough. If your going improve Twins, at least do changes that are impactful. those changes are laughable and change nothing.
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@CheyeneKL said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1942739#Comment_1942739
Dead Hard is nowhere near the level of power those perks/add ons LMFAO
I agree with OP post and Loopedbydeadbydaylight. Dead hard is as good as those other perks/add-on that he mentions. I honestly think its 2nd best perk on survivor. I don't think there is another perk that has made me waste more time and has prologues chases more so than dead hard. The amount of times that people have for example taken a hit, opened exit gate in my face and dead hard into an escape. People in end game collapse can unhook with borrow time, dead hard past teammate as teammate bodyblock while approaching an exit gate. People use this for extending loops and joining tile together. Many 50/50's that occur in vantage points for survivor are null by dead hard and the perk itself in general allows you to greed loops with no real risk. The perk is just godlike in every fashion. The good news is that not many survivors are skilled at looping, therefore the fact dead hard gives second chances in looping is irrelevant.
I am willing to bet that people who are rank 1 survivor mains probably escape 5% more statistic when they use dead hard compare to when not. its that good. I do not think they will ever weaken dead hard though. If i was propose a change to weaken it, I'd say to remove dash component of dead hard and instead make it give endurance effect for 2 seconds than apply exhaustion.
Sprint burst is only really good in two cases.
1) you 99% the sprintburst as you enter a chase, this requires a lot of setup and some luck for the killer to chase you. Its only really good for SWF because they can coordinate their exhaustion perk timers to maximize effect of exhaustion, fairely common for OoO user to use it.
2) your in a dead-zone and extra speed allows you to avoid a hit.
I haven't seen many survivors really use SB. I'd say Lithe/head on are more common but that is just my experience.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1943014#Comment_1943014
those powers are not needed to hit survivors and often are strong like huntress throwing hatchets, literally ignoring objects and distance, extra point is they HELP you get hits.
Freddy's power didn't HELP you get hits they ALLOWED you to get hits and if you got a hit right from dream transition or not was pretty iffy i don't care how good you were you cannot tell me that the dream transition was better at getting hits then literally any stealth killer even wraith.
there is no argument here he was a failed design that only won matches from either bad plays or heavily stalling, the fact that he pretty much didn't have a power just info and stalling is why is a such a bad design you HAD to play heavy stalling to win against even decent survivors, also remember this was still back when pallet vacuums were a thing.
How someone used him doesn't matter because the ONLY reason he was even decent was his stalling which was basically put in place as the main power which made it unfun for both sides because as survivor matches took too long and as freddy you had to literally make the whole map a dead zone.
Disagree with that. Old freddy was about the fact he had 24 base TR with 115% that was further reduced to 16 with M&A with wallhacks. His slowdown was just incentive for survivors to wake up. It had little impact as whole because survivors priotized failing skill-checks to get out of dream world unlike today.
Even if you think that he was about stalling/slowdown, It is not any different by today's standards. New freddy is all about slowdown. His most common perk is Pop goes weasel and he uses this perk to great effect thanks to his generator teleportation. His second most common perk is Sloppy butcher which is often paired with his Jump rope add-on(Green add-on that reduces your healing speed & gen speed) and Swinging chains(A purple add-on that reduces healing speed & gen speed for every survivor in the dream world). Together, these two add-on with sloppy butcher create an impressive anti-heal build that stalls the game through slow heals. The lesser power is snare/pallets which gives you the choice of a bad doctor or bad clown variant for a chase. admittedly, the snares do help Freddy here and there... but majority of his strength is his synergy with generator defense perks(Pop and Sloppy). Take away those assets and he's worse than old freddy.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1942132#Comment_1942132
The fact is he was so weak they needed to literally slow survivors repair speed so he could stand a chance
he was literally a m1 killer that NEEDED his power to even hit survivors
that is why he was a failed design he was literally so weak they needed to slow the game.
like you can try to argue that he used the dream transition to mindgame survivors but if you had a head set you could hear his location and it was more of a 50/50 if hit a survivor less then that if they had good hearing.
Many killers rely on their powers to get hit, Does nurse requiring to blink to hit survivors all of sudden mean this is a bad killer? what about Spirit,Huntress, Hag? Are they bad too because they rely their powers? I'd argue that almost all killers need their power to be effective against good survivors, The only reason why many killers get away with not using their power is because average-level for survivors is notoriously bad at looping that 15% bonus movement speed+Bloodlust that killers have at base is good enough to win against low-level looping/low-level generator optimization.
As I said, he was failed design because BVHR weakened the design straight after PTB(Removed Aura-reading when in TR +Increased transition time), not because his kit was inherently bad. post PTB, he relied on aura-reading and low TR from Monitor&Abuse to be successful with add-on's that reduce chance to get a skill-check(so people do not instantly fail skill-checks to get out of dream world).
Here's very old video of Otz playing old freddy. I still remember playing it. In general, I think the reason why Freddy was conceived as bad is because stealth killers are underwhelming in DBD and Freddy was a stealth killer. I mean people still say to this day that Wraith is bad, Ghostface is bad, Pig is bad and I do agree that stealth killers are a lot of effort for little reward. As Otz says old freddy had major strengths and major weaknesses. as with any killer, you play towards your strengths and minimize weaknesses.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1940916#Comment_1940916
His uniqueness is why he was so weak until late game, The REAL problems those freddy players ignore was how his slowdown was not just too strong it was horrible to play against. He was not a fun killer to play as or against unless you could deal with getting looped until there were no pallets remaining.
As long as he was like that he was a failed design right from the start.
I disagree with that. He was failed design because survivors complained about wallhacks when he was in PTB. Original Freddy in PTB was a brilliant design. His archetype was that of anti-stealth stealth killer with the ability to mindgame loops using information. It took 3 seconds for a survivor to transition in dream and his wall-hacks worked in TR allowing him to do the most advanced mindgames that no other killer could ever do.
When he came out of PTB, they limited his aura-reading only outside of the TR & increased transition time 3->5 seconds and he was left like that for 1 year until they finally decided to rework him. His new design changed his archetype from anti-stealth stealth killer to a chase killer with hindered effect & generator slowdown(borrowed from parts old Freddy design). The issue is that clown already embodied this design and the game really did not need another killer with exact same idea. Its hilarious but Freddy snares are still stronger slowdown at 3s/15% than clown(15%/2s) to this day.
The funny thing about Freddy is that survivors complained that Old freddy was unfun to vs when he was weak(aura-reading was most complained feature of old freddy by newbie rank 20 survivors) and to this day, survivors STILL complain that he's unfun to vs. when he is strong numerically.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1941732#Comment_1941732
I’ve already clearly stated the ways Clown can get hits in on survivors before they even have chance to reach a pallet in the first place.
Staying injured against Clown is a death sentence.
I play injured all the time vs clown when I use iron will build. he's not scary when injured. The only killers i really fear when playing injured are Nurse, Spirit, Twins and Oni. Clown is super loud, you can almost always get to a pallet/vault in most cases with good routing. The only time clown's power effectively works at denying chaining tiles together is when the survivor is cornered but most killers profit from that situation. It is not exclusive to clown.
I find it very impressive that even when presented with evidence empirical evidence regarding clown's speed differential between both bottles that clown's power is not amazing, you still state opposite. I get clown is your main but for clown main, I feel like your way too proud for clown.
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@Blueberry said:
He is still pretty garbage, but I don't agree with making him a 120% killer.
There are better solutions.
I feel like killer have new enemy, their power. Lately, every singe killer is fighting against their power rather than the survivors.
Billy has to fight his overheat mechanic
Blight has to fight against his sliding on objects and his POV, sometimes his lunge if the survivor is smart.
Twins have to fight their design with victor downing people from super far away.
Clown has to fight his activation delay on yellow bottles to be able to use his power effectively.
I wish killers were not fighting their power constantly and could play against their opponent... the survivors. It feels strange because ever since Billy rework, its been like this. Clown is such wasted potential, if they just got rid of that silly drawback, he would be decent enough at least to compare to old one.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
@Devil_hit11 if a survivor just leaves the loop, Clown can still run through the Antidote to charge down the survivor.
At the expense of bad routing. what was once good routing for clown now becomes bad routing for him and good routing for survivor. Its good technique for making clown waste bottles and making him reload more and if he reloads in bad places, all the better, more shift-w, you save pallets and chases are just as long as any other killer. Its almost like pilot is saying that the clown rework would be strong at ending chases, what a novel idea.
You don't really need to take my word for it being lackluster. I went to look for a video to see what other people think about yellow gas. you can just look at any content creator for their opinion on yellow gas. Ohtofu says its only good for moving around the map and even then its not worth it because of reload. I have no more interested in commenting anymore regarding this topic.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1937799#Comment_1937799
yeah but tell me is there skill to simply throwing a speed boost onto yourself?
The answer is no unlike tonic, antidote is something you want to only be used by you so being able to just throw it at your feet for it's effect with almost no good way for the survivor to try to use it is not skillful it's brain dead easy.
like at that point they might as well just have him drink the bottle at instant speed for the effect.
edit: i do think they need to slightly decrease the activation time for antidote but not by much.
I am saying that the skill is not greater. Just more restrictive(less useful power). my analogy to this is that washing dishes is never going to be harder than doing brain surgery. Clown having more situational speed boost is not going to make him harder to play. It will just make him weaker globally on a killer that was not particularly amazing in the first place.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
It also introduces skill to playing clown if you want to use both bottles.
I feel that a lot of the players who want it to instantly activate are just too lazy to get good at using antidote correctly.
I wouldn't say so. To me, the 2.5 second activation time is like if Blight had to wait 2.5 second before he could press his Blight charge, I'm certain that a lot of blight would say his power having 2.5 second delay before it activates feels bad.
I'm not even sure what you mean it adds skill to clown's gameplay, what the skill of holding a bottle for 1.25~ second and throwing it ahead of yourself to get speed boost? Clown's skill has always been related to his understand of perception of distance and his ability to land After-piece tonics at the survivor regardless of distance in order to get hits.
To OP, all that having 2.5 second delay has done has made clown unable to time speed boost precisely when he wants it. If people turn tight corners or changing routing, its almost borderline not usable of certains maps... like Lery or Hawkins, far too many tight corners. It also adds setup time for clown which very Akin to killers like the Hag setting traps at loops. if you want yellow gas and than purple gas it, people can leave the loop.
For something that should be simple as land purple bottle->throw yellow bottle on yourself, they've made it much more complicated for no reason and much more restricted.
I found one neat usage for where activation delay ends up benefiting clown and that is when you throw yellow bottle pointblank at the survivor and hit them. the cooldown of the killer recovering on a hit aligns with him getting speed boost but you could do that by hitting survivor, recovering and than throwing a bottle on yourself if it was instant. The same could be said for almost any other conceived use for it.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1928774#Comment_1928774
Yeah Clown still left in the dumpster. I had higher expectations given they took an extra week.
This right here is why they don't get high participation on PTB's. People know their feedback on balance is a waste of time and they're essentially just their to do bug testing. They say they don't really have time for changes from PTB's but that's a little disingenuous when there's simple things like increasing the antidotes speed from 10-15%. It's nothing but a number tweak. There is time for that.
I still think clown's biggest downfall is the idea that he's strong in the chase. Survivor mains seems to think so and I can only imagine this being the reason why exhaust add-on doesn't exist. He also has perception that his bottles are anti-loop such that looping is ineffective or impossible when his bottles really do not do much in loops besides perhaps force slightly sooner pallet drops than normal. If your M1 killer gameplay fundamentals are strong, Clown's power really will not end chases faster against skilled looper. They'll be just as long as any other killer.
His perception needs to change for him to become better. Hopefully Demogorgon changes are more well received than Clown and Huntress does not become next Billy in few months.
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Well I looked at the patch log this morning written by Peanits. From look at this, https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/kb/articles/274-4-5-0-mid-chapter, It seems like Wraith got a bigger improvement than Clown. No improvements from PTB despite everyone saying that the clown improvements are weak. I just wish they removed 2.5 second gray gas aspect. that part really sucks for yellow gas. It ruins his possible skill expression.
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I'd like to see Ghostface get a buff to his stalking. Maybe make it so that hitting survivor who is not fully marked keeps his stalk meter. I feel like Ghostface does not get played enough. Ghostface feels like extinct species.
No killer is really threatful or unbeatable so no killer really needs nerfs/negative changes.