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Babalonkie

Babalonkie

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Babalonkie
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  • Shhh, i was enjoying over a month of "all generators with a 32-meter radius to explode instantly and begin regressing. Generators effected by Jolt immediately lose 32 of their progress".

  • @Malkhrim said:

    To begin with, I don't think bringing Ruin is worth anymore since Sadako Rising.

    For some reason, probably related to people looking even more actively for totems with Boons (memorizing them too) and awful totem placement on new maps, I feel Hex totems are lasting for even less than they used to. I've spent whole nights playing with a single hex perk and it almost never lasted for a full minute.

    Regardless, the reason Ruin is not worth it anymore is that we have better options now. Dead Man's Switch, Deadlock, Call of Brine and specially Pain Resonance. So, before DMS was buffed and this perks were added with Pinhead, Sadako and the Artist respectively, the only good option beside Ruin was Pop, which was always good, but still the ONLY option beside Ruin and the two didn't even sinergize at all. Now we have a lot of good options WITH SINERGY and, the best part: they are GARANTEED to do something and work during the whole game, while Ruin is usually gone in 30 seconds and countered hard by anyone with a map.

    But why is the nerf good, then? Because for the mere possibility that Ruin MAY last for the whole game and have a lot of value, it was considered the strongest killer perk and one of the reasons gen speeds wasn't been nerfed in YEARS! It was added as a band-aid fix, and it was the band-aid I hated the most. Years ago, bringing Ruin used to feel almost mandatory because of how fast gens would go, but then it was gone in seconds and you had to play with 3 perks. The old overpowered toolboxes were only nerfed after Ruin was reworked! After that, there was STILL a certain pressure for killers to use Ruin in case you went against actually efficient survivors, because gens were still really fast and Ruin gave killers the best possibility of reducing that stress... only for then do next to nothing in most matches.

    The TOP META PERK for killers being a thing that required LUCK was horrrible and I am THANKFUL that it's gone! Goodbye Ruin and hello Overcharge!

    TL;DR: Ruin was a terrible band-aid fix and removing it from the meta is good for the game. It used to be the top meta perk but required luck to even stay in the match. It was also one of the reason gen speeds weren't nerfed.


    You are like yay, Ruin is nerfed i always preferred "X" + "X"... but you failed to mention X and X are also getting a nerf... meaning you are only left in a negative position... and the only people that would be happy about that is opposing teams pretending to be a killer or SM lovers...


    Pop - Nerfed.

    Pain Res - Nerfed = + DMS nerfed.

    Ruin nerfed. = +DMS Nerfed, +Deadlock nerfed and +Merciless storm nerfed.

    Corrupt - Nerfed.


    Also overcharged is only being released at half the PTB buff as they deemed it too oppressive.


    In otherwords, large chunk or time delaying perks (that bought multiples of 10's-Minutes in time) are no longer that in exchange for a second or two extra time on other perks... and the default 10 seconds per solo on a gen is only going to hamper solo's not the SWF's (+4 seconds) who wreck killers.


    Whilst i like some of the buffs... the negatives are far greater in effect overall... all i see is a knee jerk reaction by developers.

  • @Oscarnator said:

    I know every multiplayer team based game has bad players. But oh LORD does DBD have some… savory characters. Is there anything in SOLO Q I can do when the team is just bad? I just had a game with Freddy where the last gen was 80% done (by me) and my last 2 teammates refused to do gens. They just hid behind trees and went down. I even looped him for 3 minutes or so away from the gen. Is there anything else I can do? A good build maybe?

    Last time that happened i was with a X3 SWF of which only took actions to harass the killer all game until the killer finally killed one of them... they then decided to spend the rest of the game hiding and flashlight harassing when they could...


    At this point I decided it would be much more fun to go for a ride with the killer who had Agitation and mad grit.


    However, the long term solution is to always bring a medkit and always save it for yourself... perkswise... if you bring selfish perks... it will only hamper your survival odds when matched with a good team. The best setup is to bring two perks that help only you and bring two perks that help the team and you.


    At the end of the day... it's a game... play to maximise your fun... regardless of what diehards say... games are not designed to exert stress or stupid challenges... they are for fun and entertainment... and don't ever forget that.

  • It says you get 2 additional prestige's for each prestige you already own... i take it if you never saw a point in prestiging you do not benefit from this system and only benefit from the "perk catch up" system!?


    Never bothered with prestige as i thought it was worthless, just kept everyone on 50... still do lol, if the new system was not compulsory/forced i still would not do it, same with adepts, got only one in 6 years with everyone unlocked and that one was by accident.

  • @AvengerBear said:

    What do you do to not get upset when killers are being toxic to you, like leaving you on the ground when you are the last survivor left, and the killer just stand right next to you, repeatedly using their power and wait until the last second before you bleed out to pick you up and hook you, even though you are just a friendly solo player that did nothing to the killer? Or tunnel you to the death then repeatedly hitting you on the hook?

    Move onto the next game.


    If they "tunnel" because i am dead on hook, injured or was cheeky... If they leave me on ground for just over a minute because of DS or because there are zero hooks nearby because i intentionally run them to this location... well i wont get upset as they are playing correctly... if i got upset, i would check myself in the nearest mental health hospital.

  • Ahh the age old dilemma of ethicists and murder...

  • @ElleGreen said:

    I would take Inspiration from things like Stranger Things, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and Scream... A Final Girl survivor similar to Sidney Prescott, and a Monstrous killer like Dredge or Demo with The Thing vibes. The map would either be a college campus like the one In Buffy or a Hotel map. What would you create?

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/333919/chapter-suggestion-the-thing

  • @fogdonkey said:

    You gradually get shards as you gain devotion. That's the reward.

    Nice try.


    The shards do not coincide with Devotion number and instead correlate to level. If devotion number just vanished it would not effect shards... ergo, you are wrong.


    @BubbleBuster said:

    imo a permanent %-based bp increase would be nice. Like for every Devotion level you get a 5% multiplier on BP gains. Sure it s not much but at least it would be something.

    PLayers that reached Devotion 30 wouldn't care since they already have evrything anyways but for people like me another 15% BP would be nice to max everything a bit quicker.

    Does not even need to be that high, a +1% per devotion number would be better than nothing (current system).

  • This thread may be in the wrong forum...

  • @RpTheHotrod said:

    I'm a huge fan of The Thing, but swfs would gut any power of imitation. :(

    I'm fairly certain that legion originally had a similar concept but was scrapped.

    Talking takes time... time of which allows the killer to get closer... imitation only has to create a moment of uncertainty to be successful... and throw in the other ability... you get paranoia + slowdown. Throw in some perks and you get additional slowdown and extra lethality.


    Also... it would take actual skill and manipulation against SWF... like coming from the direction of a hurt survivor, like coming from a gen they know was worked on but suddenly stopped. They will either get complacent in communications at times or take time to check of which would be too late.


    It will also cause paranoia even on coms, a players first instinct will be first to to panic and distrust, then confirm in a rushed fashion, rushed actions causes mistakes... especially if they think someone is talking to/about them but are not 🤣


    I would have a field day with that ability and would actually find SWF's easier to mess with. Especially with extreme slowdowns... mistakes could be made with little consequences for the killer.


    Solo's will only take the ability but little skill to be successful.


    Updated OP with additional perk idea.

  • @MrMori said:

    A permanent chat mute would be fine. I'd also want the option to disable chat completely, even requiring a restart to reenable. And the option to turn off profanity filter. So both extremes, people who hate engaging in post game chat and people who love that toxic ######### get what they want.

    This.


    Allowing removal of the chat window locally gives people the ability to customise their online experiences without impacting others, it would also reduce bad temptation and toxicity.


    A simple on/off feature in the options screen would go a long way. It's why most social media platforms allow muting/ignoring as a proactive ability.

  • Damn... the lack of interest clearly shows why it has not been implemented yet...


    And people call themselves horror fans 😥

  • @Coffeecrashing said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3047422#Comment_3047422

    Calm Spirit permanently removes an entire killer tracking method, for the entire game. It absolutely deserves a downside.

    Edit: It's hardly a strong perk... Birds are easy to counter already and not a massive killer resource.

  • @toxik_survivor said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/333040/weird

    That's the point of a ptb... so they can decide if changes will be a disaster, good or bad for the game.

    Actually no...


    Would you hand kids in a nursery some kitchen utensils and batter power tools to "see what needs fixing"? No because it should be obvious what is wrong before doing it.


    This PTB had concerns and obvious floors before it was even released. The point of a PTB is test useful and progressive final ideas/designs... not things obviously broken... otherwise there is no point in testing. It's like being handed a power drill with no bit and no motor and then being told to give feedback... it's a waste of time.


    "We noticed survivors using second chance perks the most and it became a new meta, so we want to it change up and see new meta's, so here is even more second chance perks"... like seriously... you for real?


    I hope lessons are being learned on multiple levels otherwise it seriously does not look good.

  • @Phasmamain said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3016515#Comment_3016515

    The problem wasn’t the endgame change I actually love that. The issue is making the stun itself much less valuable to a point where certain killers will essentially ignore the whole perk

    It still gives you a second chance after being tunnelled... it just now does not guaranty that you will escape the following chase if you have no good perks or skill to back it up after you jump off the shoulders... it also help prevents organised chain stuns.


    Ergo... it does exactly what it was supposed to... but no longer can be used as a team tactic.

  • @[Deleted User] said:

    It could just be referencing The Trapper

    It was... as the picture showed the trapper... in his mining gear. I have seen the loading screen reference the OP is talking about...


    However, definitely something they could do in the future. Personally, i was not a massive fan of the film and did not watch the second... but hey... i am not a fan of any resident Evil after number 3, so the miner appeals about as much as Wesker to me lol

  • Simple... Second chance perks are becoming second chance ONLY perks... meaning intentional usage outside of intended purpose are going to get removed... quite simple really.


    No more using Dead Hard to gain distance.

    No more using DS to stun a killer in endgame rather than preventing tunnelling midgame.


    If you have been excessively using a perk with your SWF friends outside of it's intended usage... YOU are to blame for the nerfs.


    As someone who never liked DH or DS as a survivor and a killer who always experienced the perks being purely used to work in endgame with SWF's... i like the changes.... A LOT.


    People moaning about the changes are the people who abused the perks... otherwise there is nothing to moan about 🤣

  • Hear me out.


    With all the right perks and in capable hands, Dredge's stock abilities put other killers to shame and can/is be extremely oppressive.


    Nothing needs removing but the combination needs toning down a little... Dredge has as base kit...

    • Literal blindness (Yes, if Nightfall was applied to a real human, that person would be legally defined as blind). I am here to play a game, not simulate a disability and get a headache.
    • Literal deafness/tinnitus. The screams drown out most other sounds... simulating tinnitus.
    • Instant teleport.
    • Oblivious/Undetectable.
    • Antiloop.
    • Normal base speed.
    • Dredges stock abilities also counter more survivor perks than your average killer, locker and pallet perks (A lot of them) are of very little use against a dredge.


    Other killers have a restricted one or two of those abilities... not straight up all of them.


    Also i am not a fan of turning this game into Disabled By Daylight...

  • @GiveMeTheBox said:

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/F1UHT9IDAO0U/screenshot-20220616-200521-reddit.jpg

    Is this real? I don't have access to my PC atm to check. What kind of challenge is "mess up a vault several times"? How is the player challenged by being made to take damage? I swear BHVR make these things as ridiculous as possible just for laughs.

    Play good killers and that challenge will be done in a single match without even trying...

  • @dugman said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2997766#Comment_2997766

    Actually everybody connects through a bunch of regional servers to help reduce ping times so you’re much more likely to be connected to someone in your region than someone on the other side of the planet.

    That may be the intention but it's not the reality... Russia + South America are the people i play with the most.


    @Leatherface1990 said:

    Why are people still playing this game?

    Probably due to a similar reason you read and post on this forum...

  • @Marik1987 said:

    Its an easy thing atm:

    Play Survivor in the daytime, play Killer at the evening/night. In this timezones, your queue is 2secs on each side.

    Killer at daytime gives you a) long queue-time and b) terribly strong SWFs, at evening the rounds are easier, but still a nice challenge.

    i Actually find it the other way round.


    SWF's in the evening and solos during the morning/afternoon... probably correlating to normal working hours.

  • It's currently easing up a bit and had gone to 5-10 mins as killer, survivor is still instant.


    Must of just been a new lull at that time. I will come back if it happens again.

  • @burt0r said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2997868#Comment_2997868

    Thanks for the clarification.

    And to your point, which continent do you mean? I am from the eu and well, other people from Asia and Russia may and do use steam server settings and VPN to play with eu.


    Well being i am from the UK my continent would be the same as yours lol


    But 90% of the games i play, the people are from Russia, South Americas or Asia. The other 10% will be from UK, Spain, Germany or Ireland.


    Literately never played anyone outside those countries in years and i have noticed when i am playing with people they are ALWAYS from the same country... even when not SWF.

  • @burt0r said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2997766#Comment_2997766

    It doesn't connect you around the world? There are regional servers and you would need the much loved (/s) VPN to connect to others.

    (Edit: Truth to be told, i can't think of any game that has world wide player connect and not regional Server instances)

    Also maybe give us a little bit more info for comprehension?

    I hate queue time posts that dont include platform, cross play status, time of day and region. Because without those any discussion about queue is completely worthless.

    Strange... 90% of the players i play with or against are not even from the same continent...


    Also i answered the same question 2.5 hours ago but got the "this comment needs to be approved".


    @ChiSoxFan11 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/328077/killer-queue-15-minutes

    What region are you located in? I'm in North America (CT), and when I played killer last night for 4-5 hours, my queue times were pretty much instant, as they've always been. When I started up this afternoon, I had a 1-2 minute waits, but when I switched to survivor, the queues (whether it was as a 2-person, 3-person, or full 4-person SWF) were pretty much normal waits (5 minute waits, give or take). I didn't see anything out of the ordinary yesterday or today over my 12 hours+ I played DBD.

    But i will answer it again (this will now be a duplicate post)... UK, Steam/PC and cross platform on. It's morning... but this problem did not exist before today at this time.

  • @tippy2k2 said:

    You cheated not only the game, but yourself. You didn't grow. You didn't improve. You took a shortcut and gained nothing. You experienced a hollow victory. Nothing was risked and nothing was gained. It's sad that you don't know the difference.

    I wish i did not grow and not improving is now my intentional way of life.


    Victory has always and always will be a victory... no matter how it was achieved. Just like those that lose will always be losers :)


    As long as SWF exists... it deserves the dirtiest gameplay possible... and NOED is not even close to dirty.

  • @ChiSoxFan11 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/328077/killer-queue-15-minutes

    What region are you located in? I'm in North America (CT), and when I played killer last night for 4-5 hours, my queue times were pretty much instant, as they've always been. When I started up this afternoon, I had a 1-2 minute waits, but when I switched to survivor, the queues (whether it was as a 2-person, 3-person, or full 4-person SWF) were pretty much normal waits (5 minute waits, give or take). I didn't see anything out of the ordinary yesterday or today over my 12 hours+ I played DBD.

    UK (It's morning). It's out of "prime time" but i nearly always play around this time and up until today, it was never like this. Also playing as survivor gives instant matchmaking... it's normally the other way round... long survivor and short killer queues.



    @Barbarossa2020 said:

    New killer? People want to play/ get perks always the same give it a week.

    Other than a few days after release... not seen a dredge in ages when playing as survivor (I play both sides).

  • @dugman said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2997761#Comment_2997761

    Could be, or maybe a lot of people are still trying Dredge out at in the time and region you're playing, who knows? 🤷‍♂️ (I haven't had any issues with my killer queues personally but I normally just play at a relatively peak time.)

    Surely in a game that connects you to players across the world... there is always a peak time!? ;)

  • @dugman said:

    FYI Steam Charts has DbD up +11% over the last 30 days and up +7% for the month of May. So I'm not sure what caused your long wait but it's not the overall player count.

    Then it's the new MM system...

  • Could be...


    But anything not based on the first 3 resident evils wont get purchased or ground by me out of principle... infact, after Capcom's latest move to bump up minimum specs for RE2/RE3 screwing over current owners of the game... i wont endorse or support anything that trickles down to Capcom.

  • I have directly suggested to devs 3 SLIGHT buffs to improve her.


    1) SLIGHTLY faster manifest and demanifest.

    2) SLIGHTLY faster condemned application from projection and tape carrying.

    3) Make Video Tape addon basekit: Any survivors within 7 meters of manifesting are hindered for 3 seconds. This will work similar to Wraiths speed boost when decloaking.


    Minor tweaks that do not break the abilities.

    Helps with chase. Helps with keeping survivors slightly more occupied and helps dealing with tape hot swapping.

  • @Mandy said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2989210#Comment_2989210

    We are planning to send the rewards early next week.

    TY for the info.

  • Anyone get their rewards or know anything about it yet?

  • @kizuati said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2987214#Comment_2987214

    It's not really all about trends. They highlighted better language support as one of the main reasons to switch. It also allows them to add more UI elements to it neatly,like the matchmaking incentive,rift stuff,etc.

    I know why they changed it, they said in the anniversary stream... "Not enough room"... and the that is not the "trend" i am referring to.


    The old menu looked tidy... the new menu looks more like a unsymmetrical page from a book.

  • I preferred the old, but hey ho, trends are trends.

  • @ad19970 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2987113#Comment_2987113

    So what, you'll just dc every time you go against Dredge?

    Like, I do understand that the new nightfall can be a bit oppressive, but blind is just not true. And I am not sure if acting like a 12 year old about it will help your case.

    "Your opinion does not change facts".


    And who said anything about DCing? I said i will not play blind... So every time i go blind... i don't play. And i can see from games that i am not the only one... which means get ready for the influx of post on this forum. Very simple facts.


    Anywho, last post. Perma Statement made.

  • Anyways, i have done the compulsory "Notify the developers" and am moving on until/if addressed. This thread is a statement, not a debate for me.


    If i go blind in a match... just remember... "i will not play a game blind"... no if's... no but's.

  • @Hi_Im_Chucky said:

    Same reaction when clown gas was introduced. Calm down and maybe try dealing with it (like we do everything here) until we are past the gut reaction and actually had time to get a real feel for it and then collectively decide if it’s truly too dark.

    the sky is not falling.

    I can still see through clown gas... and... i can just walk out of it.

  • @Brimp said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2987015#Comment_2987015

    I mean if you have any semblance of map knowledge it will do absolutely nothing as you can look at tiles in advance before nightfall.

    You can check a whole map and item placement before a nightfall? Got to love those AFK's right!?


    And it don't matter how much i know a map... it's very simple (as i have previously stated)... "i am not playing a game blind"... no mechanic, law or policy is ever going to change that.

  • @Mozic said:

    If they make any changes, it needs to remain on the side of "Nightfall has a meaningful impact on the survivors" and not "Nightfall does not have any impact on the survivors"

    The problem lays in consistency... there is none. They have put a extreme overlay filter over the screen with no consideration of map lighting. Doesn't take a Einstein to work that one out.


    They have adjusted the ability so it fulfils that definition on light maps at the extreme detriment of dark maps.


    Basically... they have dug a hole before planning said hole. As there is not going to be a middle ground with such a current design feature.

  • @ad19970 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2987015#Comment_2987015

    Yeah its not like you can't see anything. That's quite the exaggeration. It will probably take getting used to a bit as well.

    But it does seem to much, at least for newer players.


    Tell me... What map and exact location is this?


    And enhancing the image in anyway is cheating.


    @ssrjazz said:

    This is -far- darker than it was on PTB, to the point of barely being able to see the generator I'm working on.

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7YKQ18COTKDN/image.png

    Maybe somewhere in the middle between live and ptb brightness would be fine? Seriously tho, Mending vfx has also been too dark for awhile now as well. Feel like I need to learn to play dbd blindfolded.


  • @Kaitsja said:

    I personally like it. This is Saloon. I think the way it is currently is good, and will take a bit of getting used to.

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/T71O7AN9EQCW/1813f34f4fc7-4513429d0f03e26da19-4c37e8d91315473e-message-423582350487500-1654618556591.jpg

    One of the Brightest maps in the game...

  • @Brimp said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2986972#Comment_2986972

    I mean this is what they meant when "you have to navigate in total darkness" not like the ptb where it was just a fog basically.

    Then it was a horrible idea in the first place... as no force on earth is going to get me to roleplay as a blind person playing a video game.

  • @Rizzo said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2986893#Comment_2986893

    Thank you for the feedback, but please avoid encouraging unsportsmanlike behaviours.

    That said, please use the correct section for sharing your thoughts: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/categories/suggestions so we can collect the feedback and share it with the developers.

    Adjusted.

  • That is slightly better than what i just had... and you are next to a light source lol. it's far too dark.


    If i am going to be blind for ages in a game, not see where i am going and bump into things... i am simply not going to bother moving lol

  • @Rizzo said:

    On the PTB the Nightfall had higher visibility than intended, this has been fixed and should be more impactful.

    We will still collect feedback about it in any case!

    Some maps (Like the Japanese one)... are too dark with nightfall... could only see 3 feet in front of me and was just bumping into objects... that is just unplayable... and that is not even the darkest map. I am left with several options during Nightfall on certain maps...

    1) Continue to run blindly into objects.

    2) Not play.


    As you can see... only one option is the easiest and will eventually always be resorted to.

  • Name and shaming on the internet leads to death threats, actual abuse and more extreme counter hacking... and that is not even the more extreme end of the scenario.


    Damage can go too far too quick... with the internet, there are no limits and no discretion... and some young teenager who tried negative software (a script) for the first time does not need that kind of attention.


    I hate hackers... but i hate disturbed psychopaths more than them. The punishment must fit the crime... and people on the internet do not have the right to decide what the punishment is.

  • @[Deleted User] said:

    So it sounds like you found the easter egg to trigger it. Community still doesn't know what this easter egg is btw.

    I got it on my switch the first time i launched 5.6.0, so i had no ringu characters and whatever the easter egg was, it wasn't added in 5.6.0.

    If it's not the 7 days after buying the DLC... we need to know what the trigger is.

  • @Viskod said:

    Haha isn't it great?

    I also got this after the Chapter had ended and the regular intro had taken its place back and I was like "uuuuhhh.........what?"

    It fits the theme and adds a bit of variety. I love it.


    I think it's one week after claiming the killer... like the film.

  • @tippy2k2 said:

    It's something they had like...two weeks after she was released but no one knew how to actually trigger it

    So either it's random and you got the short end having to wait so long or you did something by accident to unlock it

    I had bought her via ingame currency a week ago, but yesterday bought the DLC for the charm and survivor... i wonder if that is linked.


    Is there more to come?

  • @drsoontm said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2979192#Comment_2979192

    The first few surveys, I've put an approximation of the BPs because I had left the screen and could not remember. Do they count in the total of 7?

    I am just guessing based on what i know at this point, so my words are not definitive. (I am not trying to do your/there jobs, just trying to help).


    A approximation will likely be void, as there will be no figure to type in and trace/refer to the exact match to in order to pull up the game details/replay. If you put a approximation with no exact figure, you could have multiple games in the same ball park of approximate figures.


    @Madjura said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2979219#Comment_2979219

    But are the voided surveys "replaced"?

    Example: First survey is wrong due to a typo, you then make 7 more surveys with the correct values.

    Does this count as the full 7 surveys because the first one is erased and then the next ones are valid?

    🦆🦂

    I would assume so. As long as you make seven correct surveys, i would say that no matter what happens at the end, you have grounds to dispute getting the rewards. It says "try to do 7 consecutive surveys", it does not say "you must". I will assume that once 7 correct surveys are done, that is it for both ends.

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