AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3507769#Comment_3507769
This gutted gen regression... Is it currently in the room?
Unless you mean that gutted = Eruption/Call of Brine/Overcharge is not a thing anymore...
My favorite thing is that when things like double locker flashlight got nerfed because people were abusing it, that was actually justifiable. I blame the accusing survivors for that one.
But when things like the CoBruption meta was holding games hostage for an hour, it can't possibly be the abusing killers that got that nerfed, no. It's the survivors fault apparently.
You touch some, not even all regression and it's 'everything got nerfed'. Change healing, chase, gen speeds, anti tunnel, anti camping, and utility for survivors and apparently that's 'nothing'.
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Keeping survivors injured is a form of pressure, and is the reason medkits and circle of healing were severely nerfed.
The 100% best pressure is always being in chase. With fast chases, you will have one survivor in chase, one on hook, and one going for rescue. You have at most one survivor on gens at any time, if the 4th is even still alive.
No one can honestly say that nurse, blight, spirit, and wesker are the strongest killers in the game because of their ability to stand in front of a hook, and if slugging was best, twins would be godly. It's because they close out chases quickly, and maintain that cycle of pressure for most of the game once they get first hook.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3506348#Comment_3506348
I mean, if Killers would not think this way we would not have several of them throwing a tantrum whenever a good Perk for Survivors is released. The last good Perk before Made For This was Circle of Healing and while this was too strong on Release, it got nerfed into uselessness over time. Reassurance did not even leave the PTB because suddenly Killer Mains were worried that
they cannot camp anymoreabout Survivors being held hostage by other Survivors...And before this we have Mettle of Man which was released long ago... And before this, basically Dead Hard or DS (I dont know which one was earlier, I think DS was earlier, so DH was released later). Both of them also nerfed quite heavily and not really useful anymore.
You can add PTB scavenger, technically dead hard was nerfed twice this way, light burn, medkits, locker grabs, and now even prove thyself to this list too.
I personally don't count the two weeks last April when boil over was buffed and then reverted two weeks later. I consider that a hasty correction by the devs rather than an outcry from the community. But since everyone and their dog counts the same exact thing and two week timing for Thana, then screw it, boil over counts too.
The only reason MfT is all over the boards right now is because killers have established a long history of '######### until they nerf it for you' and it isn't working (yet). And if mft does eventually get nerfed we'll be back to Sprint burst and lithe like clockwork.
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@MB666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3505010#Comment_3505010
hurray!!! totally a killer should abuse bloodlust 1/2/3 to counter a single not exhaustion perk , oh wait bloodlust deactives when losing chase and guess what perk allows survivors to hold W to the moon when a m1 killer with no mobility power kicks a god pallet.
(not only that MFT has more uses than people dont know YET and Im sick of explaining those on many posts)https://media.tenor.com/Pr8qa_mj62kAAAAM/shia-labeouf-clapping.gif
You right i should maybe play , KILLERS with actual powers than can counter this perk , how i didn't thought about it , ohh wait.
I assume that survivors would enjoy facing nurses , blights / wesker with strong addons in order to handle MFT alone , brilliant.
If they have MfT, then they physically cannot be exhausted, and can't break chase because they have no exhaustion perk.
There only way to break chase is on the killer by losing them, breaking a pallet, or otherwise being bad at chase.
If you can't manage bloodlust or functionally use your killers power, that is, at the very core of the video game, the definition of a skill issue on your part.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3505469#Comment_3505469
You're literally arguing against the ghosts of Christmas past. At no point did I infer that the devs needed to take action, nor is the thread even directed at them. I already stated this was a SWF, and evidently, the James was coordinating with the rest of them until endgame. This was by no means a 3v1. The message of the thread should be quite obvious to anyone not attacking a strawman; I am directing this to survivor mains who are constantly complaining that they only face strong killers, and giving photo evidence as to why someone like me; a killer main; would only play strong killers.
The thing is, and I've already stated this many times in this thread if you'd bothered to read it, the only reason I got the result I did is because these survivors were atrocious at the game (not just average, straight up atrocious). I would have stood absolutely no chance against halfway decent survivors on the same map if they were completely perkless and itemless. The point is specifically that survivors will often go out of their way to put all the chips on their side (map offering, broken items, S-tier perks, 4-man SWFing) and will still complain if they play against a killer that's above B-tier. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
I also wasn't responding to you.
I realize that might be a hard concept to understand.
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@Crowman said:
I like how people are focused on the result but refuse to consider how it felt to play the game out.
I've had 4k games that were absolutely miserable to play out because of survivors using a map offering and loaded out kits to only win because they mess up a save at the end. Doesn't really make you want to play more despite the 4k.
The entire point of the post is that the game was 'too hard' or at least 'too survivor-sided'.
You're not wrong that we don't know how the match played out, we were given limited evidence. The only information we get is the end screen and a pile of complaining. It's equally possible that the survivor who escaped hid all match and the killer won this game easily as a 3v1 from the start. But we don't have the video to say specifically.
It feels extra entitled because of the result, that the killer was somehow forced to put in effort to secure a win, when at minimum the choice of possibly the weakest killer in the game is completely in their control.
This feels like yet another post bitching that the devs need to make the game easier because the killer was forced to play with their monitor turned on to play the game. The horror.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504381#Comment_3504381
You are free to doubt Nightlights stats on that base, but its pretty accurate. The first 4 survivor perks are the same and in the same order, with the notable exeption that MFT is residing on place 4 at the moment. Of the survivor top10, Nightlight has 6 of the perks in the list BHVR published, and two of the perks in that Nightlights lists differs wont surprise anyone: Plot Twist and Unbreakable made the new list as entry 9 and 10, unsurprisingly, since they combo pretty well.
The killers list is actually much more interesting, with Nightlight sporting 9 of the perks on BHVRs list. At the moment Deadlock takes spot nr 10, with NOED not far behind on 12. So saying that Nightlights data is worthless and bogus isn't really supported by what we can assess.
Sure, its self-reported and only by the dedicated part of the community, but the data that we can compare shows a lot of similarities. I actually think that this strengthens Nightlights validity.
There's a big difference between 'worthless and bogus', as you put it, and incomplete.
Nightlight is specifically a site where users upload data, and realistically some users will upload incomplete data, or even cherry pick their uploads.
It's also an English website, so large parts of the player base *coughAsiacough* will likely not engage with that site in any way whatsoever.
Nightlight might be a general indicator of popularity in North America, but in statistics, the sample size and population are everything. Anyone saying that nightlight is more accurate than BHVR's data on the entire game's player base is delusional.
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Resilience shaves off roughly 150ms from a fast vault iirc. It's tiny enough that you probably won't directly notice a difference without a direct side-by side comparison.
But you might notice it more because that's enough to offset terrible killer ping. So you should have far fewer instances of getting hit after taking a step after vaulting.
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Haven't really seen much complaining about a meme tier perk that's been nerfed passively twice in the past year and buffed the duration (no longer get the charge back, and no longer has synergy with repressed alliance).
As for the complaints you listed tho: no counterplay, no warning it's coming, and a stunning effect is now a problem for killers?
That's hilarious.
The devs should make the stun last 26 seconds, and leave it in the game for 10 months while everyone and their dog uses it incessantly. Killers were screaming about how that's '100% fair and balanced' for the better part of a year.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3503846#Comment_3503846
I play killer more than survivor, you just assume because I disagree that I'm a survivor main. I just actually play the game without expecting the devs to hand me a 4K everytime to bolster my self esteem. I play for the chases and mind games.
Also, almost every perk you claim help tunneling and camping are either don't deter killers, or have been nerfed to be less effective.
Your biased, you want MFT nerfed because it's hurting YOUR wins.
Minor correction, but they've *convinced themselves* that MfT is hurting their wins. Sprint burst and lithe are objectively better, and anyone arguing otherwise has to ignore every base kit killer ability and bloodlust over 30+ second chases to try and 'prove' otherwise.
It's the same thing as prove thyself, before the recent nerf. Some killers were absolutely convinced that a perk that saves roughly 7 seconds when optimally used is losing them games.
It isn't. They can 100% improve in chase, run loops tighter, or, entity forbid, do anything other than follow the survivor's exact pathing and kick every pallet on cooldown.
Anyone complaining this much about MfT is somewhere between 'inefficient' to 'incapable of using the base killer kit', including bloodlust and nearly every killer power. At best, they have room to improve, at worst they need to not play the game with their feet and expect the devs to nerf literally everything for them. Either way it's not a perk issue.
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@DyingWish92 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3498645#Comment_3498645
Or they've reached an MMR where the only viable strategy is tunneling and 3 genning. But please keep telling everyone how you can win all your Pig matches without doing any of this. Most over used survivor main argument who once and awhile plays killer.
According to this forum I'm apparently a god tier genius at the game. I can play a D tier killer, play for fun, win an absurd number of my games, and I don't have to sweat unless I really decide that's how I want to play.
That's 100% exactly what nearly every killer on this forum has been wanting, demanding, and screaming for nerfs for. The main difference is that since I do play both sides and I generally play for fun interactions, I don't get my ego in a twist if I lose a game every blue moon.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3498551#Comment_3498551
Is it really an excuse if it’s true? When you load into a map like the game or GOJ with a basic killer, it is essentially an automatic loss if you don’t play defensively. While it’s true that defensive play has always been strong, it has become more prominent because survivors complained and got gen regression gutted. There now is literally no option except to play defensively.
It's never been true. I personally can win games without camping, tunneling, or 3-genning. I consider myself a pig main, so I'm not abusing strong killers or add-ons either. And the streamers that I do watch can consistently do the same.
And I'm but no means saying I'm amazing or godly at the game, but I have some skill in chase and really good have sense to understand where survivors are and likely where they're going to be.
I also focus on where I can improve at the game, which is the biggest difference. Anyone who says 'you HAVE to 3 gen' has given up on trying to improve and is closed minded to trying to play anything other than gen kick simulator.
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@[Deleted User] said:
There is definitely a rise in the 3 gen, but I also feel like there's a gap opening open up with the balance in the game.
I don't like camping, tunneling or the 3 gen strategy, but I think it's the only way certain killers feel like they can win right now.
Hopefully the Devs balance out the game and killers feel like they can get a shot at winning without using boring strategies.
I think it's the only way certain killers feel like they can win right now.
Unfortunately this has been the mantra for at least the past year for killers. Doesn't matter what the state of the game is, including the gen kick meta which was the strongest killer has been in years, possibly ever. People have been saying this regardless of the game balance.
It's just an excuse to play how people want to play. Tunneling is at least 'efficient', but there's no excuse for holding a game hostage for an hour with a 3 gen strat.
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The biggest reason MFT hasn't been touched yet is directly from the devs: that they're looking at data surrounding MFT to see if it's actually problematic.
If MFT is an issue then they should see that in the perk usage rate and players using MFT will correlate with an increased escape rate. And before "but ObJeCT oF ObSeSsIon..." that still led to an increased escape rate in matches where the perk was used, just not necessarily the player running the perk. BHVR knows this already and can see that data.
Other reasons they may not nerf the perk: it's not actually a problem, it's countered by nearly every killer power and base kit bloodlust, more experienced killers have no issues with the perk, it isn't better than SB or Lithe.
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I agree. The only way to guarantee you won't play with or against bots now is in custom games. The core game is a coin flip at the mercy of other players now unless you 4 stack.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496317#Comment_3496317
I feel like this is a little misleading.
Your two examples are off, mostly. Boons as a whole haven't been touched since their introduction in Mikaela's PTB, iirc, and even three of the four we have also haven't been touched. What happened was Circle of Healing was nerfed due to it being overpowered- not just because it was beneficial, it's beneficial now, but because it was too strong. Boons as a whole probably were an attempt at a secondary objective, and it's a shame they had to live in the shadow of CoH for so long, because now people will claim they're "effectively removed" after the one clearly OP one got nerfed to just be pretty good.
Second, I don't think it's accurate to say there's a "phase" of killers with powers that force interaction, because BHVR just kind of do those every once in a while. Pig was the first, Plague was probably intended to be one, Pinhead wasn't part of the recent batch... it's just a thing they do sometimes. They probably will do other power ideas soon, I don't think it's directly related to the idea of a secondary objective- maybe at most they're more inclined to think of powers that push for interaction these days, but that's not quite the same.
That being said, I'm not necessarily defending anyone who calls for a secondary objective. I just think it's important to be accurate.
I'm not even talking about power level of boons at all, I'm taking about them being a secondary objective.
You want a secondary objective to be something that survivors are naturally incentivized to do on their own, voluntarily, and ideally even spend a perk slot to do it. You also want it to be something they choose to do at the start of the match as a tradeoff (instead of gens) for a potential gain later.
That's why I claim boons were 100% successful as being a secondary objective. It slowed down the early game and introduced inefficiency (for gens) that survivors were glad to trade off.
Now, though, that's gone. Unsurprisingly, now instead of investing 20+ seconds searching for a totem and 14s blessing it, survivors dedicate those 34+ seconds at the start of the match to gens instead. Now that healing is less efficient, instead of walking to the boon and spending ~22 seconds healing, all that time is spent on gens injured, not healing each other for 32s like killers seemed to hope for.
Boons were successful at slowing down the pace of the game. Period. More heals meant longer games, which is generally beneficial to the killer. The alternative is that no one heals at all, which means all that time spent booning, searching, walking, self-caring, etc just became gen time instead, probably with resilience. The alternative is where the game was before boons and is the current state of the game.
The only reason power level of boons comes into play at all is if they're not enough of an incentive they do nothing, which is where they are now.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496317#Comment_3496317
I feel like this is a little misleading.
Your two examples are off, mostly. Boons as a whole haven't been touched since their introduction in Mikaela's PTB, iirc, and even three of the four we have also haven't been touched. What happened was Circle of Healing was nerfed due to it being overpowered- not just because it was beneficial, it's beneficial now, but because it was too strong. Boons as a whole probably were an attempt at a secondary objective, and it's a shame they had to live in the shadow of CoH for so long, because now people will claim they're "effectively removed" after the one clearly OP one got nerfed to just be pretty good.
Second, I don't think it's accurate to say there's a "phase" of killers with powers that force interaction, because BHVR just kind of do those every once in a while. Pig was the first, Plague was probably intended to be one, Pinhead wasn't part of the recent batch... it's just a thing they do sometimes. They probably will do other power ideas soon, I don't think it's directly related to the idea of a secondary objective- maybe at most they're more inclined to think of powers that push for interaction these days, but that's not quite the same.
That being said, I'm not necessarily defending anyone who calls for a secondary objective. I just think it's important to be accurate.
I say 'phase' as it appears to be their focus on current killer designs, not as a 'new' thing, but that the most recent examples all share that trait and likely will continue to for a while.
Skull merchant is designed so survivors are forced to interact with their power to disable it. Same thing with singularity, except it's a crate with an EMP instead of interacting with the pod directly. Now onryo is encouraging interacting with tapes and tvs. Even the Knight's banner falls into this category, tbh.
All these examples are the most recent killers/rework, and survivors have differing levels of need to interact with the killer power, which disables some or all of their power for a while toward that survivor.
It might be coincidence, but it feels like there's a conscious choice by the devs so that the killers power acts as the secondary objective. These are certainly deliberate design choices, I'm only reading between the lines to assume that this was some kind of meeting decision/directive at BHVR to design killers in this way for a while.
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People have been asking for years for a 'secondary objective' for survivors.
BHVR tried this with boons, but, entity forbid, those actually were beneficial to survivors, and we can't have that now. So they got effectively removed.
Now they're trying it with killer powers, where investing time to interact with the killer's power is time not spent on gens. I suspect this phase probably won't last long either.
What people really want with 'secondary objectives' is doing something besides gens that provides no benefit to survivors and no detriment to the killer, and it then has to be mandatory because there's no incentive to do it. Essentially it's expecting a mechanic that forces survivors to be afk.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3494965#Comment_3494965
Doesn't change the fsct that Overcharge is bad design in the same way OG Ruin was.
Punishes new players to the point they have no hope of winning whilst not affecting veterans except in extenuating circumstances.
I don't disagree that the skill check could be bad design, but I think the 'always available' aspect has become the main problem. They could always tweak the skill check to be slightly larger, or to never appear before 6 o'clock, or even nerf the regression chunk it takes for missing, but it wouldn't change that OC has effectively infinite uses.
I think the days of 'it's not worth kicking gens' are dead and gone, sadly, and gen regression perks in modern dbd generally all need to have actual activation conditions, cooldowns, or charges. Pop is healthy because it triggers on hook and hold one charge. So if Overcharge did something similar you'd only get at most a dozen of them a match. These one hour games pretty much prove that even decent gen regression can be exploitable if it has infinite uses. And, like pain res, with limited uses they might be able to have the regression buffed again.
I kind of chalk it up to the 'Eruption effect', where being incapacitated wasn't nearly as much of a problem when you only saw the perk incredibly rarely for adepts and such before it's buff, but when everyone decided to run it in every game and (more specifically) focus on only applying the perk every 10 seconds at the expense of actual game play, then it's abuse becomes problematic and game breaking.
I still agree with the thread that SM is just designed to be too good at holding games hostage and is the primary problem here.
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Bots don't do 'unless', there's no decision making or situational awareness here.
If the survivor with the cube has no hooks and the survivor in chase is death hook, you should just do the box and try to take aggro.
Sometimes you should go to the box and wait to pick it up at all until the chased survivor is already picked up. It's a mind game with the killer.
Bots don't and can't do any of that.
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Completely agree.
If you ask the question 'how can the bots potentially be abused?' You'll immediately realize this scenario and come up with the blindingly obvious solution that the game should just end and award BP. It isn't complicated to think of this issue or come up with a solution.
I refuse to believe that BHVR didn't spend the 5 minutes to think of this, and that they just didn't have the time to actually do it.
The fact that this isn't implemented at launch tells me the entire bot replacement feature needed more time in development, at a bare minimum. And I still contend it shouldn't have gone live at all.
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@I_CAME said:
People complaining when nearly everything killers have complained about has already been nerfed. It's just trolling at this point
- Every objective metric shows that the game is slightly killer sided on average. Both third party and official statistics.
- Dead Hard - dead
- Decisive Strike - dead
- Circle of Healing - dead
- Iron Will - dead
- Prove Thyself - dead
- BNP - dead
- Gens - longer
- Self Healing - heavily nerfed
- Numerous survivor sided maps - heavily reworked to make them less survivor sided
I don't even know what people want anymore. They've addressed almost every killer complaint and people still whine. What is even left other than toolboxes and maybe a few maps? Both of which have been partially addressed with the BNP change and map reworks. At some point it becomes a git gud issue. As killer you can literally dodge an infinite amount of lobbies and shop for an easy match due to how killers are able to see prestiges, hours, etc. The game is as easy as you want it to be as killer.
They want to go back to Eruption meta.
Kick gens for up to an hour, skill in chase is completely optional, and declare yourself the god of DBD by playing it as a PvE 'gen kick simulator'. Unfortunately they can only win games when their opponent is forced to be literally afk and unable to play the game simply because of obscenely overpowered perks.
They'll keep asking to nerf survivor perks and moving the goal post every patch. In about a year, we'll be hearing about how Alert and Parental guidance need nerfing, after all the exhaustion perks are deleted. If the game even survives that long.
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The bots have no game sense, coordination, or strategy. They'll always do the same things every time, and will be easily abusable and exploitable as soon as players realize what the bots are programmed to do.
The next few weeks will probably uncover several exploits like this to easily abuse the bots. Unfortunately, the player base response will likely just be to mass DC once the first person drops, or be subject to bot exploits the rest of the match. (Not condoning it, just observing human nature).
Just wait until the bots start 3 genning for you.
Sometimes an empty player slot is better than an exploitable ai fill-in. This system shouldn't have gone live at all, or at minimum with much, much more time to develop and polish.
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Actual gen rushing is pretty rare. That's the (usually 4-man) squad with most everyone running toolboxes, BNP, and one or two gen speed perks each.
What most people call 'gen rushing' is just the killer not bothering to establish pressure, or not understanding pressure in the first place. First chase the killer will have one survivor busy, and the other three have literally nothing else to do except gens. If that chase goes too long, and those 3 gens pop around the time of first hook, that's sometimes called 'gen rushing', even though the killer is just then establishing pressure with that hook.
Compound that with the easy and meta stats of tunneling and camping for maximum pressure on one survivor, and minimum pressure on the other three, means gens are fair game for 2-3 survivors for most of the game.
It feels like many killers who post on these forums have zero clue how long their chases are or how long it takes for them to locate survivors at all, and simply expect survivors to stand afk in plain view until the killer is ready to hook them after their teammate is dead.
These killers just slap on 4 slowdowns, wander aimlessly trying to find anyone, chase one survivor for 8 minutes, and then act all *surprised pikachu* when the other survivors are doing their objective. The last step is posting here complaining that 'gens are too fast' so BHVR can give them more training wheels instead of them improving at the game in literally any sense whatsoever. Bonus points for 'being max MMR because every game is just a comp level SWF'.
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I'm surprised they took this long to remove the BP bonus. They said they were making it so perks didn't feel mandatory to run just because of BP back when BBQ was changed, and that seems like a reasonable stance imo. No idea why it took a year to address it here, and there are still more perks that have this.
Although, the nerf to gen speed is completely overkill. Removing the BP bonus is the entire reason most people run this perk at all, and would be enough to dumpster it to sub 1% use rate.
Literally no one is going to run it for like 4 seconds off of one gen at the end of the game when used efficiently. They'll just run Deja Vu and get value all game instead with no requirement to group up for the killer as easy targets.
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@TeleportingTurkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486954#Comment_3486954
you see, if people let go then it would look like the perk is a non-issue to devs, because there's no negative or any feedback whatsoever on it.
devs often tend to leave problematic things that aren't spoken of enough be untouched for a very long time because the community doesn't make it clear these things are a problem to them.
Although, from my perspective, this is a different issue: players as a whole have seen how effective crying, pissing, and bitching all over the forums can be for nerfing things they don't like. It worked for dead hard twice, DS, CoH, medkits, flashlights, reassurance, base gen speeds, and now even prove thyself. And even if you want to claim those were deserved nerfs, which some were, the community perception is that complaining loudly, early, and as often as possible is highly effective.
I find it incredibly hard to believe that this perk is problematic il for anyone with an understanding of killer base kit mechanics. Especially when there were several posts about 'be thinking of ways to nerf MfT' days before the PTB launched. That makes it really difficult for me to take most criticism seriously when there were genuine campaigns to 'just nerf it' before anyone could see it in action.
None of this feels like genuine criticism. This is a frenzy of people who are confused and angry that BHVR is looking at data before taking action, instead of just nerfing it because they posted about it.
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@nars said:
3 genning isnt an issue outside of SM. You can break a 3gen in soloQ, it doesnt require coordination you just need basic gamesense. And if they dont have it then thats a skill issue, not a balance issue.
Well, soon most SM games will likely involve at least one bot, and bots have no game sense, and can't strategize or coordinate.
I suspect these 3-gen skull merchant games will just devolve into killer vs 4 bots after the first person disconnects.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486054#Comment_3486054
I just liked this era more than now.
DC penalties killed queues and for fix this, we got this terrible mmr system. And then mmr system made games even more unbalanced and this ended with nerfing meta perks.
Old DbD was better, nothing can change my mind. I enjoyed more.
I don't think it was only MMR, but more game balance choices. IMO the game took a sharp turn away from 'chase survivors for pressure' to 'camp literally everything' mostly after 6.1. Camp hooks, camp slugs, camp 3 gens, do anything other than prioritize chases, in fact, drop chase to prioritize kicking gens.
Before that patch, the killer mantra was 'gens aren't worth kicking' because it was a more valuable use of time to always be in chase. Contrast that with the CoBruption meta that 6.1 gave us, where the game largely turned into gen kick simulator.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484890#Comment_3484890
I don't think i agree with your 3 gen assessment... I think I'd prefer a dumb ass bot who keeps running back and forth to tap a 3 gen generator over a DC icon... just the threat of it is powerful in of itself Hell even if a survivor sits in a corner of the map while dead on hook, they are being more useful than being dead based on what they MIGHT be doing.
Having a bot does increase the chance you'll lose.... but not as badly as DC... as the Killer can quite happily secure their 3 gen easier vs. 3 players because that is one less hand to help in healing/pulling off hooks.
The increase in DCs may be a factor... but as I've stated in other threads, I'm very much of the mind that DC's and suiciders on first hook should be tracked and face stronger bans the level of being sent to the shadow realm. Would anyone miss them? 😉
The 3-gen concern is more that the bot will avoid the terror radius and do the other 4 gens first. So you won't get much chance to use things like potential energy to try and break the 3-gen.
Bots can't really coordinate or strategize when in the 3-gen situation either, so once the killer turns around the bot is likely to wait until the terror radius fades before going back, where the correct play is to pressure the gen immediately. Depending on the map, the bot might not even enter the 3 gen area at all because of the TR.
You also have the problem that the bot isn't going to realize or understand to leave the 3-gen area, so they're likely to try and loop there or just walk around the edge of the map nearby. Probably going to get themselves hooked in the 3-gen as well.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484472#Comment_3484472
It also doesn't cure cancer either.
How is it a negative exactly?
I listed several ways this system can be worse than an empty seat. The entire argument isn't about just reducing disconnects, so I'm not sure why you seem focused on only that. (Except that that's an easy straw man for a long winded post)
Bots make 3 gens worse because they can't strategize, bots can and will get stuck and will eventually soft lock games, it leads to abuse and griefing potential. I'm not gonna list it all again if you didn't read it the first time.
I get that I'm the only one concerned here, and I already said that. I was hoping BHVR might possibly see some flaws in their system, especially since they overlooked the glaringly obvious situation where all 4 survivors disconnect in a match. That's a pretty big oversight that isn't hard to predict, and there's nothing in place (as of the PTB) to prevent the killer from being stranded in that game.
This seems incredibly poorly thought out for such a large game change.
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Good luck getting this level of coordination or strategy out of the upcoming survivor bots. Most likely they'll just try to avoid her terror radius and feed her the 3 gen for free.
I suspect that most SM games will devolve into the killer playing alone against 4 ai after even one person loses connection. (Not condoning this, just an observation)
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@Seraphor said:
- Bots aren't mean to reduce DC's, only to lessen the impact of a DC on a match, so that a single DC doesn't make the entire match a write off.
- DC penalty isn't going away, so there's no reason to think there will be an increase in DCs.
No, but if the solution to someone who wants out of a match is to just give up on hook, which avoids the DC penalty entirely, it also avoids the bot replacement system too.
At best, it just means that the same loophole still allowed someone out of the match for essentially free, and completely bypasses the 'replacement bot player' of the new system too.
So if the system doesn't work in cases where survivors want out no matter what, doesn't reduce disconnects (or doesn't even address them), and is completely subject to bugs and abuse otherwise even when the system works, why is it coming?
It feels like this is a net negative in an awful lot of cases, no change at least half the time, and once in a blue moon might actually do something productive.
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In addition to the comments about it being boring and matches up to an hour, it's also one of the very very few times the devs have actually said this is not intended gameplay:
@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3436449#Comment_3436449
We're not talking about scenarios here were the survivors just complete 3 gens on one side of the map and cause the problem themselves. We're talking about instances where the killer specifically picks 3 gens from teh start and plays only on those gens to draw the game out for that 1 hour timer. That's definitely not the way the game was ever intended to be played.
I believe they also said they're working on a long term fix to patch out the strategy of killers planning to camp a 3gen from the lobby, though we don't have details yet. I can't find a link, this might've been in a recent dev stream?
For a game that's largely a sandbox from the dev's perspective (anything goes, play how you want, if anything is problematic we'll adjust the perk, etc), having them actually say 'you're playing our game wrong' is massive.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479903#Comment_3479903
Bloodlust comes with a cost of not using your power and leaving up pallets to be used later. That's not free.
Bloodlust doesn't even take up a perk slot.
If people are going to claim incessantly that dead hard was/is a 'free' health state with 5 or more different restrictions and conditions to it's use, then bloodlust is the freest free that's ever free'd in this game.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3476312#Comment_3476312
There is no competitive pvp game that replaces disconnected players with bots that I'm aware of, it's absurd. And if you play DBD as a casual player as a 'party game' there's still no reason to have bots.
Rocket league, at least in unranked. I can't remember how it is in ranked because I only played duo with my late best friend back then.
Unranked tends to be dealt with differently in every game that actually separates the 'competitive' mode player base.
Examples of games in most familiar with personally, in Overwatch the ranked mode has disconnect penalties, a 2 minute grace period for rejoining a match with no penalty. But the unranked quick play mode has no disconnect penalty at all, as well as backfill with new teammates.
Apex has a very similar system, but with no backfill for the unranked mode.
It gets weird with DbD being asymm, because they can't really split into unranked and competitive modes. People would just default to doing what they do now, which is sweating constantly, but they'd be able to pick 'unranked' in the hope of easier games. In symmetric games, that just means you're throwing, but not necessarily in DbD, especially if you're the only player on your team.
I could see bots in some games like unranked rocket league, or even something like Mario party, but whether DbD is a 'competitive asymmetric pvp game' or a 'casual party game' is hotly debated. And honestly, even if you consider it a party game, then just like any party game it only takes a few people who take it too seriously to completely ruin the fun of the game at all.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3450161#Comment_3450161
I don't think I answered my own question. If you spawn in on a map, you should play strategically. Do the gens in the middle of the map first instead the one you spawned next to on the edge for instance is a good idea. With this alone you can prevent a 3-Gen on most maps. And you can try to finish two in the same area, when there is a 4-Gen. It always works when you do it while there are still 4 survivors on the map.
I have the options here. I'm not sure why you want to assume that the 3 gen can't spawn near the center of the map, or that the killer is somehow not camping it from the lobby, which is the scenario we specifically talking about.
Regardless, strategy and coordination go completely out the window once the PTB patch goes live. Good luck carefully planning your gen completions when your new bot teammate just finishes everything else and hands the killer their 3 gen for you. The bots are just going to avoid the terror radius (hey, in the 3 gen...) and do gens elsewhere.
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Fully agree.
I don't mind their stance of removing BP bonuses from perks, since BBQ and Prove were both used for BP gains by a large number of players. It gives better perk variety.
But to replace it with nothing is just weird to me.
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@[Deleted User] said:
If I wanted to play against bots I’d play a single player game.
Absolutely. Bots have literally no place in a game that has been exclusively pvp it's entire existence.
If they want to make an alternate, *optional* game mode with bots then sure, go for it. Keep this crap out of the main game.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3476227#Comment_3476227
There is no downsides to the bots. While there is problems with core dbd that may make people want to dc that is something they knowingly sign up for every time they hit ready.
Realistically they should have system in place that prevents people over lets say 100 hours to be generous to gain a certain amount of blood points per min while out of chase for at least 20 seconds. It's not hard to make it so people have to play the game or stop playing it. Leagues done an incredible job of preventing people from greifing in any way and negating toxicity to the point of it being absurd. Dbd's system is far too lax to say the least.
But all of you mobile/veteran players can keep spouting how dc penalties mean nothing.
I'll be clear here, I don't think that disconnect penalties should be removed. I disagree with op.
But I fundamentally think bots are a bad thing for the game and should never go live.
You are completely, demonstrably wrong that there are no downsides to bots. The griefing potential alone is insane.
If bots are in any way better than average players, survivors swfs could and will just grief the solo q with them until they DC to get a bot teammate. I still haven't seen and can't test if the killer is trapped in a full bot game of all 4 survivors disconnect immediately, so that is a potential problem too.
And the abuse potential for killers is insane. Bot gets stuck or caught in an infinite ai loop means the game doesn't have to end normally. A survivor slugged for the 4k can be hard camped by the killer for the full 4 minutes just so a bot can be given hatch.
I 100% would be on board with forcing a disconnected player to rejoin the same lobby until the match they left has completed. It soft raises the DC penalty, you can't just say that disconnecting is a faster way to find a new game, and it doesn't defeat the core principle that the game is pvp.
There is no competitive pvp game that replaces disconnected players with bots that I'm aware of, it's absurd. And if you play DBD as a casual player as a 'party game' there's still no reason to have bots.
Fix literally any reason that people are disconnecting instead. How about looking into the problem that if you're the first player downed you simply don't get to play that match in the overwhelming majority of cases. Let's start there instead of this bullshit.
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@Nazzzak said:
Nah, people will just become DC prone and essentially shop games. I dont wanna play with bots all the time.
Unfortunately you're going to get bots in your games an awful lot, because
*The bot replacement system fixes literally none of the reasons people disconnect*
In fact, it actually gives an extra reason to disconnect (not encouraging or condoning DC's here, just discussing human nature). Anyone who would normally stick out a game just to be a good teammate... well, that's what the bot is for now. It turns a disconnect into a bullshit win-win, where that player can leave the game like they want, but the team isn't down a 'player'.
So when people get sick of losing because of bots on their team, they'll just disconnect in a cascade and make the problem worse.
This system is garbage, bullshit, and solves nothing. It's ripe for exploits and abuse by both sides, and simply leaving the player's avatar in the world for 30 seconds before having the entity take them gives the killer time to gain stacks/hooks without any option for abuse.
This should never go live in a PvP game.
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@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472333#Comment_3472333
The same could be said for old dead hard.
And it was still nerfed/fixed.
MfT doesn't either ignore the hit (DH for distance) or absorb the hit (nerfed or current dead hard).
You can still lunge and down someone with MfT, and there's no 'waiting game' like with dead hard, which was the primary complaint.
The only thing MfT and dead hard actually have in common is that people are bitching incessantly to get them nerfed. MfT has actual counter play built into base killer kits, but because it doesn't involve kicking a gen it's apparently unconscionable to expect people to learn to do it these days.
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The entire bot system is ripe for abuse on both sides. *This should never go live*
Survivor squads who just DC at the start and trap a killer in a full bot lobby game or face disconnection.
Also can't wait for the last survivor player to be camped as a slug on the ground for 4 minutes while the other bot survivor does gens, is stuck somewhere, or is just given hatch as BM.
If they want to implement something for DC's, they should leave the disconnected player's body in the game for 30-45 seconds, then the entity eats them. No room for abuse, and killers can still get their adept/perk triggers, whatever.
This bot system will only lead to more disconnects. For some people, the only thing keeping them in a game like that is to be a good teammate and not leave the team short... But that's what the bots are for after this update...
So people will just drop more often because the bots will be the official, BHVR-sanctioned player replacements in games they don't want to play. They don't have to play the game, and the team doesn't have to be short a player. *This isn't sanctioning or condoning this behavior, but this is an observation about human nature.*
That feels like rewarding disconnecting if you aren't 100% satisfied with the match. I don't think you should be making a disconnect feel like a win-win scenario, ever. Players shouldn't be disconnecting at all, for any reason, and the game would be far better in the long run if BHVR invested even a fraction of these resources on literally any of the reasons people disconnect, instead of a bot band aid fix.
Games are overwhelmingly one-sided, to the point that at least one player doesn't get to actually play the game. Let's start with that one instead of just letting people continue to disconnect and slapping a bot in their place.
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@Crowman said:
They both have the same problematic design where the survivor is rewarded for being injured.
I don't think mft is as strong as dead hard was though.
rewarded for being injured
It's a perk that does nothing until the activation conditions being met. No one ever says this is 'punishing the survivor for being healthy' because that's looking at the entire system wrong.
Health states (and hook states) are resources for survivors. This perk costs a health state to activate.
Dead hard costs both a health state and a hook state to even be usable.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3469363#Comment_3469363
But that is more of those things not working with his power. You can still stack those perks right now but on him his power just doesn't get affected with speed perks. They didn't go in and make it so vault speed doesn't stack and instead just made it so his power doesn't get affected by it.
Yea and that build isn't a problem. The thing with all haste outside of MFT is it is clunky to get/maintain outside of Hope. So blood pact doesn't have a duration but it is clunky and looks really niche to get the proc while MFT is just something you get by existing. Other perks are duration so while OP it is for a limited time. There was no issues with the haste mechanic until MFT came. To me that indicates that the new perk is what is causing the problems and nothing else.
It wasn't limited to just wesker. I believe the worst effects were killers who could get innate vault speed from add-ons or ability like wraith or T3 Myers. Even the standard vault was broken, if it wasn't part of the killers power.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3469346#Comment_3469346
Have they ever done that though? Wasn't Forever Freddy the same issue with stacking things and they just removed it rather then make it not stack. And there are other haste perks that you can stack with hope that don't create this problem. Isn't this really just a case that is caused by not having a duration. Hope was fine on its own because you can't stack it with other haste perks that don't have a duration until this patch.
They removed stacking vault speed shortly after wesker came out iirc, because stacking bamboozle, fire up, and superior anatomy was causing vault speeds that literally broke the animation. So something like that has been done before.
Hope definitely stacked/stacks with other haste since the time limit was removed. There are tons of videos around that time of people playing with Hope + Blood Pact, which gave two survivors 114% ms during end game, and only took 3 perk slots.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3469278#Comment_3469278
No because the 'nerfs' they gave it were so meaningless that it didn't change anything lol. They didn't even delete its still extremely strong you just dont get to deny the killer any and all pressure whenever you lose them in chase now
The removal of stacking and lowering the heal bonus by half, while keeping the self heal penalty were anything but small nerfs.
Current complaints went from 'everyone can heal' to 'now it's so annoying to heal that everyone is just doing gens while injured'.
Which, coincidentally, is the same kind of complaint that existed before CoH came out.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3466797#Comment_3466797
"If the devs see an issue they'll nerf it!" It took a year and a half for COH to get nerfed lol
That's some serious revisionist history there. Circle had been nerfed 3 different times since it's release, the first nerf was within 3 months of it coming out.
What you probably meant to say was that it took them over a year and a half to finally delete the perk.
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@mustdogen said:
Could it be there are not enough of new killer players so low mmr survivors will still pair with experience killer?
The way the system is set up, there's an entirely possible scenario where the 60% of solo q players almost never escape and the remaining 40% escape regularly. It actually sounds a lot like forum complaints about 'unbeatable SWF' tbh.
In that kind of scenario, solo q would basically have minimum MMR, and SWF would be essentially soft capped MMR, with killers being somewhere in the middle.
The kind of games that matchmaker would produce are essentially a coin flip, where 60% of games are destroying a solo squad, and 40% of games getting demolished. This also preserves the kill rate.
I don't think those ratios are exact, but there are definitely groups that never escape that the matchmaker would have to essentially turn itself off to find a match.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3468640#Comment_3468640
I usually don't care about data because like you said, it does not show everything. OoO users died so much and devs did not nerf this perk cuz that for years. But perk was busted asf.
But i just don't see problem with MfT. 110% killers have range/teleport/speed powers which they hardly feel any difference. 115% killers are mostly anti-loop killers and they can play around it as well. Only problem comes with m1 killers. And maybe we should buff them instead of nerfing fun perk?
Don't forget that bloodlust exists for every killer, base kit, no additional effort required.
For a perk that's hard countered by bloodlust as well as nearly every killer power, there's an awful lot of complaining.
Pretty sure 'skill' is generally measured by how well someone can use the games base kit. If a killer is kicking pallets on cooldown, never mind games, and never throws a hatchet, that's not a perk problem.
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@1ettuce said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3466586#Comment_3466586
I don't understand how you guys have reached this conclusion? Given that there's been valid complaints about the perk AND has gotten to #6 pick rate on nightlight (which means way more than it doesn't). What statistic is it now that makes MFT okay?
Because BHVR has the full player base statistics... Better than nightlight.
And even if the perk is used regularly, it's only a problem if it's performing better than other similar perks (Sprint burst or lithe). If running made for this doesn't correlate to escaping more often in a statistically significant way, then why would they need to change it? The data shows it's not overpowered at that point.
I know the community has the impression that crying loudly, early, and as often as possible is what gets things nerfed, but I'm actually really glad that BHVR is considering data and not just knee jerk nerfing a perk because people planned to flood the forums with bullshit to try and get it nerfed before it was even on the PTB for player testing.
If data says it needs tuning then sure, let's get it tweaked. But not *only* because people are shitting all over the forums about it.