AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@Pulsar said:
I feel that a 90 second gen is completely fair. Like you've pointed out, situations where gens can take minutes or < 60 seconds should be ironed out.
Although, as an aside, I wonder how much of the fun of this game has been lost in our endless pursuit of balance.
I wonder how much of the fun of this game has been lost in our endless pursuit of balance
Unfortunately a lot of the fun has already gone.
Even more unfortunate is that it's likely to keep going in that direction for the foreseeable future.
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The devs have said that the Deja vu buff specifically was a stop gap until they implement their anti 3 gen solution.
There are still several maps and killers who can still 3 gen from game start until the devs can kill this play style for good.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557939#Comment_3557939
I'm sure they are being honest though. They just forget to mention they play Trapper/Pig/Myers etc. add-on less, they avoid left side of the map cause it's bad luck, when someone is rescued in front of their face they have to debate if it's the right thing to hit the rescuer but by the time they decide what to do rescuer is already gone and more stuff like that.
I just assume that a lot of players who talk like this are playing with their feet and didn't turn their monitor on.
That or they still have every key on their keyboard bound to 'damage generator' and are just screaming for gen kick meta to come back.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558728#Comment_3558728
Reassurance is a very strong perk. Troubleshooter is a strong chase perk. Dramaturgy is a strong AND fun perk. Fogwise is a strong info perk. Chemical Trap is a strong perk to deny a pallet break (especially good on god fillers). You don't see any of these perks skyrocket to the top of the usage rate. People tend to take the path of least resistance to win (which is why the genkick meta quickly became popular after it was discovered, and Eruption also bounced to ~25% usage rate almost overnight). Old Eruption was problematic, and MFT is problematic. Old Eruption deserved to be gutted, and MFT equally deserves it.
The problem that all of those perks have is inconsistency.
Nearly all of them are useless if you get tunneled from the start of the game, especially if you don't get to touch gens all game.
You can't rely on being healthy or getting to finish most of a gen uninterrupted, there's always that chance you get found first and just won't get to use your perk(s).
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558086#Comment_3558086
I mean yeah but then you got to take into account people giving up on first hook also effecting BHVRs numbers.
If killers truly believe this is impacting global statistics, then you should be giving hatch every single match.
You could single handedly reduce kill rates by up to 25% and it's entirely in your control to do so.
The fact that slugging for the 4k is basically meta tells me that no one actually believes either one has any real impact on the long run.
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@Yippiekiyah said:
Most killer perks are still slowdown, does that not tell you that baseline generator speeds are too fast?
They could make gen speeds 5 minutes per gen and killers would still choose to run slowdown perks.
You're also missing the larger picture here. Survivor perks are almost entirely centered around chase. According to this logic, chase is somehow a problem.
In reality, survivor perks are centered around chase because it's likely the only thing the survivor will do that match. You can't usually run a totem build, a support build, a meme build, or even a gen build because you might never get to use it. Camping and tunneling are so prevalent, efficient, and easy that the only thing you're guaranteed to do in every game is chase... and it might be the only thing you do that game. You get tunneled with one of these other builds and you're just getting chased while perkless.
Regression is popular because longer games favor the killer. Always. Survivor resources get used up (pallets, items, gens), the useful playable area gets smaller, less area to patrol or hunt for survivors. And the killer can eventually snowball into multiple kills because of it.
You see regression perks and say 'gens are too fast'. I see two information perks and zero chase perks and I'm certain at least one major problem is that many killers are wandering blindly around the map, can't find survivors, and spend minutes per match searching without building any pressure whatsoever.
Killers in general are stacking quad slowdown, taking 60+ seconds to close out chases, and wandering around blindly without finding anything but gens. This list tells me that to counter 'survivor quad chase perks' killers are doing almost nothing, except crying for nerfs on the forums.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558131#Comment_3558131
Idk what games you get but healing cans till be VERY fast and have good gen progress. Also they only nerfed self healing speeds which were the problem about medkits.
The games I get no one bothers to heal at all, because healing was made to be an inconvenience.
Healing takes time away from gens, which is why 'gens fly' in most games.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558131#Comment_3558131
Base Gen increased from 400 to 450.
Then self healing nerfed by half.
Because getting healed is harder, survivors dont heal, but focus on Gens.
Gens go faster than usual because of no healing, then they wish for 2nd Gen time increased
So survivors have to do with killers' wish to have 2nd Gen time increased ; on top of the healing nerf ; on top of Base Gen 450.
You forgot to mention the 10 months of gen kick meta, where killers drove home 'do gens or lose the game' with oppressive regression perks.
There's absolutely no need to increase gen times again. The entire reason they nerfed CoB and oppression at the same time they nerfed healing was to try and offset the regression. Their mistake was listening to killers, because healing (specifically circle) took trying away from gens that was valuable to killers.
Killers want survivors spending time healing. But if you nerf healing too much (which is where we are now) then it becomes a waste of time and no one bothers healing at all. That's what the meta was before circle was released, and we're right back to it now that circle is dead.
There's literally no other factor than the healing nerfs there. Even in the pre-6.1 ruin, undying, pop, pain res meta... the second strongest regression short of gen kick meta... people were healing because of circle and medkits.
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@HarlockTaliesin said:
Since gen regression was gutted, survivors are incentivized/rewarded for staying injured, and chases take much longer, tunneling is one of the the main methods (soon to be the main method) to get a survivor out asap so the game can be more balanced around most killers in the current meta. Since Wesker can be good at tunneling, it'll only amplify someone getting tunneled out faster.
It really sucks, as when I want to play killer I prefer to double hook everyone then play friendly (exceptions are toxic players or players running a survivor-sided map offering to abuse). Since I prefer M1 killers, these days I have to kill off a survivor asap to have enough gens left to even attempt that.
Since gen regression was gutted
Since healing was gutted with medkits and circle.
FTFY.
There's literally no relationship between gen regression and staying injured. Killers complained, got healing nerfed to the point that it isn't worth the time to heal anymore, and now complain instead that survivors aren't 'wasting time by healing inefficiently'.
That's what actually happened.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557865#Comment_3557865
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557753#Comment_3557753
Both of you make good points and it's also interesting to note the survivor perks are almost exclusively involved with chase, whilst the killer role is more varied, although their top 3 are focused on gen regression.
Offering a Devil's advocate stance, is this choice because a lot of players who play survivor aren't confident enough in chase and anticipate quick downs without those perks, when the trials may actually not be so difficult? If those who are playing survivor focused on maybe taking just one chase perk and fill the other 3 slots with perks based on auras or gens, would the outcome always be identical?
I only say this because, as a randomizer, it's noted that a less chosen perk like Bond or Blood Pact has been a major reason for success and, if I had substituted a meta perk fpr those, the outcome may have been so much different. By the way, just to reassure you, I acknowledge Blood Pact isn't up to the standard of, say, Lithe by a long shot, but it's an example of perks being more useful than first imagined.
Part of the lack of diversity in survivor perks is based on gameplay. Camping and tunneling in particular are base kit and also so prevalent that the only thing you are guaranteed to do in a random public game is be chased.
You could bring a full gen rush setup, then be immediately tunneled out of the game without ever touching a gen.
Same thing with totem builds, healing and team support builds, meme builds, etc. In not even that many games, you'll randomly get a match where you're effectively playing perkless because you just get tunneled immediately.
Since anti tunnel is effectively only endurance now, and it's trivial to disable it by hitting immediately off hook, your only real answer to it is to make chases as long as you possibly can. You're guaranteed value with chase perks, even if you are hard tunneled from the start... (especially if you're hard tunneled from the start).
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557176#Comment_3557176
They dont heal because healing with Sloppy Butcher wastes a lot of time, especially if the Killer can interrupt the heal.
@Topic:
I 100% agree, Sloppy Butcher is currently overtuned. IMO since they changed Hemorrhage and with the Nerf to Medkits and Healing in general, Sloppy Butcher is too good for how easy it is to apply. At the very least, it should lose Hemorrhage, I dont think that Hemorrhage and Mangled should exist at the same time, inflicted by the same Perk or Add-On (with the Exception being Gift of Pain, since 99ing would remove a good portion of the Perk).
It is also noticeable that you see Sloppy Butcher on basically every Killer who deals damage with M1s and Killers who have Add Ons which inflict Mangled often also use those.
I feel like hemorrhage has been overtuned since they added that healing regression effect. My biggest complaint is that hemorrhage is so easily applied that it completely deletes 'partial healing' perks like resurgence and reactive healing.
I'd love to see hemorrhage referred to it's old form, but I seriously doubt that'll ever happen.
At minimum, I think the healing regression should only work if you're running. Standing still or even walking shouldn't drain heal progress, but running does. Give it some kind of counter play that still prevents the 99% thing people seem to hate, but isn't completely deleting an entire category of perks because the killer ran sloppy butcher.
Although I personally think the 99% issue was still solved by nerfing medkits. If someone is 99% with self care then congratulations, they wasted at least 34 seconds on that instead of a gen.
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Let me see if I can put this in terms a killer player will understand:
Camping has been a problem for over 7 years now, and had been around since the game launched. (That's longer than dead hard has existed, and even longer than the time dead hard went unnerfed).
Camping has continued to be a rampant, base kit, issue despite many, many attempts by the devs to give some kind of solution, including:
- Addition of 'rotating hooks'. (Before this the killer could literally body block the only physical location you could unhook from, and guarantee a kill for free)
- Addition of borrowed time as a perk, which became a mandatory perk for survivors for several years or else you'd go down immediately on being unhooked.
- Addition of reassurance as a perk, which was nerfed into uselessness from PTB (press e to cancel should have been the adjustment, not a perk rework).
- Borrowed time added as a base kit feature, finally freeing up a 4th perk slot after several years.
- Hook grabs finally removed
- Now anti face camping mechanic
And the worst part is that even though camping has had all these changes, it's still been a problem.
And you know what the 'correct play' is for the survivor on the hook being camped? It's to hang there as long as possible to give your team time to do gens...
That's right, 'just wait it out'.
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@I_CAME said:
Please do this before MFT is nerfed. I want to see if the MFT meta makes the game as impossible as some killer mains swear it is. You'd swear the kill rate was 25% depending on who you're listening to. I'm expecting roughly 55% and i'd love to see if official numbers line up with that. What I really want them to do is show the escape rate for three and four man SWF vs everyone else. That would actually be interesting.
They probably stopped doing kill rate stats because it's a lose-lose stat. Let's take the current meta:
If the kill rates are 'within BHVR's acceptable tolerance' right now, people who scream for MFT nerfs will just ignore it because *x reason*. Likely because they want the kill rate to be higher.
If the kill rates are 'low', BHVR will just get completely ######### on my those same people because 'OMG how had this not been fixed immediately?!?!?'
The community almost never uses kill rate data responsibily. Remember the 'nurse has a very low kill rate and shouldn't be nerfed' arguments? Pepperidge farm remembers.
Personally, I've always wanted to see how high kill rates got during the gen kick meta. I suspect 65-70% or even higher, but I have no actual data to back that up except the sudden 'break glass' nerf to eruption they accelerated into a mid chapter patch, which is pretty rare for them.
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Nightlight is an interesting place for information, and isn't bad as a reference. It's bad when people start claiming it's gospel truth and somehow 'more accurate than BHVR'S stats'. (Which is what can happen in some threads).
People who tend to rely on nightlight too heavily also tend to suffer confirmation bias. It's great if the data is close, but you're ignoring the misses as well.
Not even having self care in the top 10, when it's #6 for BHVR, is a pretty gigantic whiff. When it's close to right, great. But when it's wrong, it can be really, really wrong.
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Interesting that the killer perk list is nearly identical to before the 'big meta shakeup' in 6.1. There's probably been some shifting in percentages, but there's only one perk that wasn't on that list from back then (nowhere to hide).
Survivors have about 5 perks that weren't there before, since BT, DS, iron will, prove thyself, and circle of healing were all meta perks before that patch.
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@CLHL said:
The game is able to detect when a bodyblock has been performed, there are achievements and perks that count them, so it's possible to disable the endurance when used with this intention. But I wouldn't expect them to change it.
Disabling BT when taking a protection hit would just nullify the entire point of having BT as an anti camping feature.
Hitting the survivor immediately off hook, when the unhooker is right there would also count as a protection hit, and the unhooked survivor would go down instantly. That is exactly what happened before base kit BT was implemented, if someone wasn't running the (mandatory) BT perk.
There's no reason to giga buff camping by going back to this.
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@FrenchBagels said:
I’ve always hated Pentimento because it completely invalidates most builds a survivor has that are totem related.
I used to run Inner Healing 24/7. Was great. Then Pentimento/Plaything became a thing and I realized that they don’t want us touching totems ever unless Devour Hope is in the mix.
Imo, pentimento was kept in check by boons. You could play around the perk by blessing the (probably plaything) hex totem without activating pentimento.
But now that boons have effectively been deleted, there's nothing to counterbalance the perk, and arguably the strongest, most desired effect only takes one stack.
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@DemonDaddy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554964#Comment_3554964
Im not claiming who requested it, just that the counterplay heavily leans in survivor favor. Its not much of a secondary objective when I grab it once at the start of a match and essentially ignore her power from then on.
You're still wrong that it's in the survivors favor, and my initial response still holds.
The survivor response to pre-rework sadako was literally 'just ignore her power all game'. Now survivors are forced to take time away from gens, saves, heals, or anything else to shuttle around mandatory tapes several times per game. There's no world where that's 'leans in the survivors favor' by any measure.
The other two examples, that you voluntarily chose, are literally against game rules. The survivors only real choice in those games are give up and go next, which isn't even game play, it's just the meta game of playing against a killer intentionally holding games hostage.
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@DemonDaddy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554817#Comment_3554817
Condemned is a joke, I cant take anyone that dies to this seriously. Not in any version have I reached the mori state against her. The rework only made counterplay easier.
The rework, at minimum, did exactly what killers requested about her kit: survivors are forced to interact with the tapes.
Before the rework, the ideal survivor gameplay was to ignore the TV's in nearly every scenario. The only exception was to disable a TV near a hooked survivor to prevent an instant tunnel, or in rare cases actually clear your condemn stacks.
Now survivors basically are forced to grab a tape as soon as possible or are punished for ignoring it.
It was a killer request to make the tapes actually matter, and it's been a long standing killer request to give survivors a 'second objective', which interacting with the TV's does as well.
Calling the sadako rework a 'survivor request' is completely backwards, at best. If she was such a 'weak m1 killer', who you could literally ignore her power, isn't that the exact type of killer people claim survivors 'want to face for easy matches'? This is just blaming survivors for, I don't even know what at this point. Sadako is arguably easier to use and more effective post rework.
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Killers have been screaming for a rework for the 'weak m1 killer' sadako nearly since her release. Now that you're practically guaranteed a condemn kill with the rework, it's somehow survivors doing? C'mon.
The other two are, in the devs own words, not intended gameplay and holding games hostage. So yeah, 3 genning as hard as possible for an hour without progressing the game deserves a game ban, flat out.
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Realistically, taking the more 'vibe' stance, if you want chill games you just have to accept that some teams will want the win more than you do. That's not a bad thing, and it's bound to happen.
It's perfectly fine to lose a game every now and then simply because you don't feel like sweating like crazy.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554010#Comment_3554010
Eruption had the problem of preventing you from doing literally anything, affected multiple gens, gave tracking, didn’t have a time limit so you could set it up anytime you wanted and didn’t have to worry about rushing to find a gen.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554425#Comment_3554425
This is just wrong.
Pain Res and Pop are still not as good as they used to be. Pop was in no way reverted.
Eruption, Call of Brine, Overcharge, Thanatophobia, and Tinkerer are still bad.
Healing was in fact buffed after the nerfs. Remember when they originally had healing your teammates also take 24 seconds?
Healing was in fact buffed after the nerfs.
There was no live change to make heals base 24 seconds, it was a test on the PTB that they decided not to go forward with after receiving feedback that it would absolutely kill the game.
From live version to live version, healing was only nerfed during that patch. Saying anything else is completely disingenuous.
This is like saying they removed infinite unbreakable for survivors, since that also never went live and has never been a live feature of the game, but was tested once in the PTB. I guess we should also be clamoring to remove that 'nerf' by the same logic.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554492#Comment_3554492
Both got 50% and an excess trim. They're really not that different.
And both should have the 50% reverted.
Ruin at any strength would be completely meaningless to most current killers in the game.
You could make the regression 400% and they would still hard tunnel one survivor and then be completely baffled as to why the others aren't just letting go of the gens voluntarily.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553960#Comment_3553960
BT is considered useless, because it's basekit. That immediate hit just triggers the basekit version and prevents the survivor from getting instantly downed. BT would prevent killers from waiting out the 10 seconds for the down. But no one deems that necessary.
DS is DS. Whatever the devs do to it, half the community will hate it. It was predominant before its nerf and was used in ways the devs didn't anticipate. Now the devs might be cautious to buff it even the slightest.
OtR is still extremely strong for runner builds.
I don't agree on no mither. People are already ignoring heals and just spam gens while injured. Equipping no mither just sounds like the next logical step in combination with resilience and mft. I'd also add soul guard, even when no one uses hex perks anymore. Simply because it gives the endurance effect on picking yourself up from the slugged state.
The biggest thing about anti camp is that it's all useless. It's all so ineffective that the devs are having to add an entire anti camping mechanic because camping is not just alive and well, but out of control.
That includes BT the perk, base kit BT, and even reassurance. None of it is enough to even deter camping.
The only perk I've ever seen be effective against tunneling was 5s DS. Killers would consciously play around that perk, which seems like an actually effective deterrent. Keep the conspicuous actions and disabling in end game nerfs, those were fine. But the stun duration nerf killed the perk. Now it's only good for resetting deep wound and exhaustion, not anti tunneling.
No Mither is completely worthless, you're better off bringing unbreakable. You're broken, have a target on your back from the game start, and the killer would have to be pretty stupid to leave a no Mither player slugged. It's blindingly obvious they have it since it has the biggest telegraph on everyone's HUD, immediately at game start, that the perk is in play.
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The most effective way to deal with that is apparently also controversial: make it so the game is fun.
The biggest contributor to this is the fact that tunneling is so prevalent. If you're first downed, you probably just aren't going to be able to play that game. Unlucky for you, but the answer is to go next.
But if tunneling wasn't as effective, you'd still likely be able to play the game despite being first downed, and deaths like this would reduce.
But entity forbid we touch tunneling as a 'strategy'.
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@CatnipLove said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553809#Comment_3553809
It was going to be infinite? I just assumed they planned to give each survivor the ability to pick themselves up once per game. Just like UB does now.
The PTB test was unlimited uses of unbreakable as based kit. Technically there's only so many times you can pick yourself up just because you'll eventually bleed out, but yeah.
It was only in consideration because that PTB was also testing the finisher Mori system. Imo the finisher Mori was a terrible idea to begin with, and base kit infinite unbreakable was a terrible response to the problem the finisher Mori caused. Because the finisher Mori they tested forced the game to end in a killer win the instant all of the remaining survivors were hooked or downed, regardless of perks.
So there were games on the PTB that ended in under 2 minutes because the killer snowballed and just slugged everyone right away. The match I remember seeing was an Oni on dead dawg, and it was over in like 90 seconds or something ridiculous like that.
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@Tsulan said:
The killer meta looks like gens are still perceived as the biggest threat.
Survivor meta is all about prolonging chases and finishing gens while injured. No anti camp, no anti tunnel, no healing. Almost like those aren't actually an issue.
These perks have been reduced to the marginally or situationally useful category at best. Some are just outright killer perks.
The anti camp perks (Reassurance, borrowed time) are highly situational. You won't get reassurance value unless you can communicate with your team. BT is mostly useless just because you'll get hit immediately off hook regardless, so an extra 10 seconds is meaningless.
Anti tunnel (DS, OTR) also situational. DS is literally just used to reset deep wound and exhaustion (which requires another perk slot) . OTR is still decent for aura blocking and silence even when you get hit off hook, but even that aspect is being reduced as killer info perks are bypassing auras entirely or making survivors scream.
Anti slug (Unbreakable, No Mither, Soul Guard). Unbreakable is good if you know when to use your only charge and actually get a chance to use it. No Mither is literally a killer perk, and Soul Guard is technically only anti slug if the killer brings a hex, so good luck getting that to work. I've been able to use that feature exactly once.
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They already announced that the infinite unbreakable they tested on a PTB a year or so ago has been scrapped completely.
It won't happen, and that's straight from the devs themselves.
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Just putting it back to 5 seconds is fine. All it needed was conspicuous actions and disabling in end game. It's literally just a deep wound and exhaustion reset button as it is now.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553703#Comment_3553703
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553706#Comment_3553706
Tell me in what planet is a 5 gen pop + exit gate open + escapes realistically a "tie".
A 2 man escape automatically implies all 5 gens were done *hence Killer lost at his effective main goal.* when killer can bruteforce a 1-2K just by camping in endgame I'd be hard pressed to call that a Tie, its more akin to consolation kills than anything, much to the likes of a hatch escape being a consolation escape than a survivor win.
The survivors as a team made it out, they effectively won as a *team*, just because they lost 1-2 people in the process doesn't mean the team didn't effectively win.
Gens. Are. Not. The. Killer's. Objective.
Survivors. Are.
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@WilliamSN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553680#Comment_3553680
https://youtu.be/Bxf3uzI--ik?si=nTGuDuO0XlhYC_9M
Im not doing any difficult math, its literally what happened in the games, even with hooks and saves, they still popped all 5 and left in ~3 minutes. Game 1 is a *perfect example*
Lets be real here, a killer 2k (Community claimed tie) is still effectively a killer Loss, a 2k implies survivors did all their gens and were on their way out. Game 7 + Game 9 on the video are *perfect examples* of this.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553685#Comment_3553685
A 50% Killrate implies 2 kills out of 4. (because you know, basic math says that half of 4 is 2) which in turn, for this to be a reality, survivors have to pop all 5 gens since only 1 person can escape trough hatch.
As i've said above, even though a 2k is considered a tie by the community, its effectively still a killer loss because all 5 gens were popped and the survivors were on their way out.
Just de facto defining a 2k to be a 'killer loss' doesn't make it true. It's genuinely a 'draw', and for at least two survivors it's still a lost game for them.
Statistical averages does not mean that a 50% or even 60% kill rate is 'almost always' a 2k result. You can't extrapolate that information from just the kill rate number. It's much more likely that 0-1k and 3-4k are the most common outcomes, depending on whether the killer can snowball in the match. With 2k being the least likely.
If I have 10 games, with 5 having 0 kills and 5 having 4 kills, I can still get a 50% kill rate because 20 out of 40 survivors died. But a 2k result never occurred, and the killer hard won half of the games as well.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553234#Comment_3553234
Oh, yes. How could I forget that game sense allows Trapper to move at 120%? Silly me.
Seriously, can we stop using the term "game sense" as a straw man for absolutely everything? A survivor that moves 3% faster by default (which means 20% more time for the killer to catch up) cannot be countered by game sense alone. If a killer drops chase because their game sense tells them to, does that improve their situation in any way? The answer is no. A killer doesn't have time to run around and drop every other chase. Much less when you consider that more than 1 survivor will have MFT and that a killer cannot build up pressure without getting a down.
The worst thing about MFT is that it's completely useless against the strongest killers in this game but way too strong against the weaker killers. Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Artist, Plague and Wesker don't care too much about that. Compare that to M1 killers. Loops aren't designed for killers or survivors to suddenly move faster. That is why bloodlust is such a big deal.
I have won a game as perkless pallet Freddy against a SWF with 2 P100s on Garden of Misery too. They played terrible and I won because of it. The same thing wouldn't have happened, if they hadn't played this bad. MFT on a bad survivor is useless. But MFT on a decent or even a good survivor is horrible to play against.
20% more time for the killer to catch up
20% is just to make the number sound scary.
In a 15 second chase, that 3% move speed gives 0.45 seconds of distance, which is 1.8 meters. That's still in lunge range.
After 15 seconds, the killer gains bloodlust, and completely negates the 3% from MfT.
Try using mind games, stop kicking pallets on cooldown, or do really anything that isn't following the survivor's exact pathing. Try zoning, using the killer's power. Maybe even turn your monitor on or stop expecting the game to hand you a win simply because you clicked 'play as killer'.
They haven't nerfed the movement speed because the counter is the killer's skill in chase, which is also the only reason this perk is complained about so much on these forums. Experienced killers all collectively go 'huh, that might've been MfT' while hooking the survivor they just downed. But it's far easier to ######### to the devs about nerfs than to examine your own game play for even one second.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553019#Comment_3553019
Precisely because of what you are describing there using flat statistical averages percentages is the only way to do it. Because even if some killer players are able to do a 3-4K every game and others would only gen 0-1K every game, the average would be around 2 survivors killed per game still, so, around 50%.
That's why it is an average, and that is why it represents better how many times each side wins.
Yes, but your conclusion was wrong.
53% is the average, but it doesn't mean nearly every game is a 2k and killers are never winning any games. The conclusion is what I was contesting.
I don't disagree that we don't have the data to know exactly what the distribution of reach outcome 0k -4k is, but you can't conclude that every game is either a 2k or 3k based on just the average. You can't work the numbers backwards that way.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552941#Comment_3552941
Let's take 100 matches.
- 100 matches = 400 survivors.
- 60% killrate = 240 survivors.
- 240 in 100 matches = 2.4 survivors killed per match.
- Or, if you want it shorter: 60% of 4 = 2.4
So, to put it simply, that would means 2K in most games with occasional 3K on average.
A 50% kill rate would means that killer always draw with survivors (2K in every game), while survivors win 50% of their games. So, no wins for killers. That's why a 53% killrate is not even close to be "killer sided", at contrary, it means that killers are losing most of their games.
In other words, in his attempt to claim how grateful he is that the game is "a little killer sided", he has proved that it is full survivor sided.
This is the problem with using flat statistical averages though, a 2k is probably the least likely outcome, although possibly a 0k is less likely.
Most of those games are going to be either a 0-1k or a 3-4k with the state of the game. So while you seem to be implying that a 53% win rate means killers never actually win a game, ever, in reality it means that about half the time you win with a 3-4k and about half the time you lose with a 0-1k.
The exact middle scenario of a 2k draw wouldn't skew the results as it would contribute the least toward a standard deviation, being an exact 50/50.
In reality, if killers actually wanted nothing but buffs, all they have to do is give hatch every single game. That alone would lower kill rates significantly, since BHVR seems to want to force a specific kill rate for the entire game.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552115#Comment_3552115
Fair enough. I'd expect them to hover around the same level, since last time we saw them it was 61%, and that was during the gen kick meta. with that drastic drop in regression I'd bet on a 4 or even 5 percent drop.
The last official stats were from just after 6.1, but before the gen kick meta has solidified. The perk stats from that same time frame listed Thana as a top 3 perk, so likely the window covered the couple weeks before the nerf where it has a nearly 100% pick rate.
The gen kick meta skyrocketed kill rates way higher than 61%, but we haven't gotten official kill rates since about a year ago.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552578#Comment_3552578
- Reads a post with a lot of points and maths of how and why it is the problem.
- Ignore everything and stick with just one phrase.
- His answer: "This is the biggest load of crap I've ever read."
Again, nerfing PT and... BNP? You mean buffed? Whatever, was treating the sympthoms and not the real problem.
And they don't solve the real problem because there is people like you that would cry hard about survivors getting nerfed at the same time they say that it is more efficient for survivors to split up and that is what they should do, so they shouldn't have any problem in making grouping up in a gen less powerful.
Also, just for fun:
- Genrushing has being a problem for years.
- BHVR destroyed regression perks and backtracked the nerf to altruistic healing.
- BHVR only slightly touched PT while making Deja Vu not having a cooldown, "nerbuffing" BNP and adding broken haste and endurance perks that makes chases longer than they should.
- Genrushing is a bigger problem as before and any killer without chasing power is not viable.
- Him: "The only reason killers are bitching (this time) is 100% due to not playing well."
I love the logic some people has. I would pay to see their thought process to come to those conclusions.
You're complaining about gen times and somehow think that BNP was buffed in the recent rework? You realize that it used to actually speed up gen times, right? I can't even believe you have a basic understanding of game mechanics at this point.
Someone else did a much more thorough debunking of your crap, and I'll leave it to them. But just the fact that you're so off base with why grouping up is bad for survivors and good for the killer is enough to make me think you have zero clue what you're talking about.
As with many of the killers on this forum, the issue is not having any clue how to pressure *survivors*, and likely not having a build that works with that. Shockingly, if you stack something like pop, pain res, jolt, and eruption, but only get 2 hooks before gens are done, you're effectively playing perkless, blind, and not helping yourself in chase. But it's much easier to cry for nerfs than examine your own gameplay.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552474#Comment_3552474
"It is not relevant to my point" It is relevant, because you are making a point against gen times. You wanting to use mental gymnastics to turn around the argument to "your point" is what is not relevant here. It's like a restaurant having awful food, and the chef saying "well, people can put sauces on top of it and mix various things so it is not that bad, also most of the time our food is fine depending on who cook it". Alright, but the possibility of the food being awful is still a base problem, and we should address it. In other words, you keep trying to derail the main argument to your point while yet again ignoring the base problem.
And I know what you are saying, and my answer to that is you are so wrong. It is present in every single match because it is the minimum the generator mechanic allow survivors to do, so it doesn't matter if they just shaves off 50 seconds instead of 60, they should not be able to shave off that much time in the first place. Spawn, toolboxes and progression perks are just symptoms of the disease, and solving the base problem would solve the rest. But you don't have to believe me, let's do the math:
- One survivor with Commodious Toolbox:
32 charges at 1.5 c/s during 21.333 seconds + 58 charges at 1 c/s base progression = 90 charges in 79.333 seconds.
- Two survivors, one of them with Commodious Toolbox:
(32 charges at 1.275 c/s) + (32 charges at 0.85 c/s) during 21.333 seconds = 45.332625 charges done.
90 charges - 45.332625 charges = 44.667375 charges left.
44.667375 charges at (0.85 * 2) = 26.27492647058824 seconds.
21.333 + 26.27492647058824 = 90 charges in 47.60792647058824, or 47.608 seconds.
- Two survivors, both of them with Commodious Toolbox:
32 charges at 2.55 c/s during 21.333 seconds = 54.39915 charges done.
90 charges - 54,39915 charges = 35.60085 charges left.
35.60085 charges at 1.7 c/s = 20.94167647058824 seconds.
21.333 + 20.94167647058824 = 90 charges in 42.27467647058824, or 42.275 seconds.
In conclusion:
- One survivor with the toolbox would only shave up 10 seconds from a gen.
- Two survivors, just one with a toolbox, would shave up only 6 seconds more than not having the toolbox at all.
- Two survivors, both with a toolbox, is slightly more effective than having 3 survivors doing the gen without any toolbox, and only 5 seconds more effective than only using one.
Now, with the numbers in place it is more than obvious than the toolboxes are not the main problem, as you would need two survivors with the best toolbox in the same gen at the same time and apply the full toolbox to that gen to be worth it, and doing that would left the toolboxes empty, so they would have waste them and aren't able to do it in another gen. And as you want to strictly argument about "realistic averages", this situation won't happen in random games unless at least two survivors are in SWF and decide to do it.
So, the problem are not the toolboxes adding too much to the base progression, the problem is not two or more survivors spawning in one generator, the problem is and always have being the base progression of two or more survivors allowing them to do one gen in at least 37 seconds less by default before adding other progression bonus on top. And taking in count that both toolboxes and progression perk works in a percentage basis, solving this big problem by lowering the progression multiplayer when two or more survivors are in a gen you would also solve every single smaller problem related to it. Easy, and simple.
Now, the big question: Are you going to admit you were wrong, or are you going to keep ignoring it and trying to make the argument about other points?
the problem is and always have being the base progression of two or more survivors allowing them to do one gen in at least 37 seconds less by default
They already nerfed prove thyself and BNP because that was 'the most egregious thing ever' before the nerfs.
Survivors grouping up to work on gens is the best thing a killer can want. It means you can interrupt and pressure *multiple survivors* at once, and it's still the *least efficient* way for survivors to do gens. It's always, *always* more efficient for survivors to split up, including some cases where there's only one gen remaining. And that was true even with the old, pre nerf prove thyself. It's even more true now.
The only reason killers are upset (this time) is 100% due to not playing well. Especially in the current build of the game, if you don't know where survivors are and aren't running at least one information perk, then you're just blindly wandering the map while survivors do gens for free.
If you aren't pressuring the right places on the map, or don't even know where they are, that's completely on you.
This is 100% a case of 'I've tried nothing and I'm out of ideas'
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3549416#Comment_3549416
AFC, basekit BT, soloQ hud, rushed vault distance (that one might have been reverted, still confused). killer basekit hasnt been buffed since 6.1.0, though those buffs werre quite sizeable so it makes sense. I'd have expected something more by now though.
The reason they don't just 'buff killers' is that it's too much to tweak at once with the entire killer roster. Even minor buffs just magnify the difference between trapper and nurse, making the problem worse.
They balance it by nerfing survivors, which is why nearly every aspect of survivor gameplay has been nerfed in the past year: anti tunnel disabled completely in end game, DS gutted into being merely an exhaustion reset, dead hard nerfed twice, flashlight nerfs with locker grabs and lightburn removed completely from the game, circle of healing deleted and medkits nerfed, even prove thyself and BNP have been nerfed heavily or reworked at this point. And with information power creep, even stealth gameplay is dead now. All of those are inherently killer buffs.
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@RaSavage42 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3550830#Comment_3550830
No that's the issue...
Why are you blaming Killer's for their perk choices???
Gen Times and Gen Speeds are two sides of the same coin
If a 90 charge Gen can be completed in 45 seconds... is it Gen Times or is it Gen Speed
If a 80 charge Gen can be completed in 40 seconds... is it Gen Times or is it Gen Speed
I'm saying that the most common reason gens are 'done quickly' is a perception problem.
There's no in game timer or clock, unless someone is specifically streaming or recording their gameplay. Most of the time a 90 second gen will be done in roughly 90 seconds, but the killer perceives 'gens fly' because they're focused on other things like trying to find survivors and chase.
I'm specifically calling out killers who have poor game sense for perk choices. If you struggle to locate survivors and close out chases, but are running 4 slowdown perks there is absolutely more you can do to improve your own gameplay.
It isn't 'gen speed' or 'gen times' when the killer has specifically chosen a build with zero information, yet blindly wanders the map and can't find survivors for 60 seconds or more (most of a gen).
It's 100% a perception issue that gens fly if it's taking 2 to 3 minutes for the killer to build any pressure, but they *think* it's been like 45 seconds.
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It's been around for two years and no one's complained because the combo is completely hard countered by boons. Bless the totem and it deletes plaything without enabling pentimento.
So now that boons have been effectively deleted, the counter to this is just don't cleanse and give plaything full value.
Which really blows in solo q, cause it only takes one person to not get the memo and screw over the whole team.
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Just to play devil's advocate here, base kit BT lasts 10 seconds. If the killer is back to hook in time to not only hit endurance, but both survivors are still next to each other, then the killer was both close enough to hook and came back immediately.
That's, at minimum, a proxy camp by definition.
The other option is essentially a hook bomb by the unhooker, and again, it's not like the hooked survivor can opt out of that. So if they eat an endurance hit because someone else decided to be a dip#########, that's not the decision of the person with endurance either.
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@RaSavage42 said:
Gen speeds won't change unless it's the efficiency that they change
1.0-2.2 charges per second of progression
And then adding in perks can increase the 1.0 to whatever (numbers are hard)
Then adding in Toolboxes can increase the 1.0 to whatever (numbers are hard)
Oh and Great skillchecks add 1% to progress (which isn't much but if a Survivor hits multiple greats then that changes)
Killers regression is .25 charges per second
Then adding in perks it's either a % of current progress, total progress or increasing the regression rate (again numbers are hard)
So it doesn't matter if they change Gen times if Gen speeds don't change
This misses the problem by actual light years. This was the argument before 6.1 increased gen times globally, then again to nerf prove thyself and BNP. (Remember when PT was claimed to be the sole reason for losing games? Surprise, surprise, it wasn't the issue). Now we're back to generic 'gen goes to fast'.
The real problem can't truly be solved by game balance because it's the player. Far too many killer players want to just toss on 4 slowdown perks and then complain about gen speeds and clamour for nerfs.
The real issue is that those players can't find survivors and take too long to close out chase. The game can't hand hold to tell you that you probably could benefit from chase perks, or that lethal pursuer is one of the best perks in the game. The devs have added an info perk and a chase/utility perk every chapter for almost two years now... they know the real problem and people just aren't using the tools that might actually help them improve. But entity forbid we examine our own gameplay, it's much easier to spam the forums and demand nerfs.
Instead, players just slap on pure slowdown and then take 45 seconds to find the first survivor, then 2 minutes to close out chase. Then complain that 3 gens are done 'in the first minute' because they have the game sense of a fence post.
The only time perks have 'solved' the issue of terrible gameplay was during the CoBruption meta, where any killer could hold games hostage for an hour and win by either attrition or default. That's why people have been screaming to go back to a slowdown meta, because during that meta even a potato could 4k without turning their monitor on.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3550231#Comment_3550231
Both self heal and altruistic were initially supposed to take 24 sec, not any longer. Only altruistic healing was set back because of the requirement of two survivors in it.
The big hit in the healing nerfs was to the medkits with all addons nerfed and all made to 24 charges and to COH, the strongest healing perk at that time. None of them were reverted.
Said that, asking for an even longer healing times will lead to survivors not healing at all. Considering that Sloppy is one of the most used killer perks, which makes self heals already take 30sec, any longer than this will lead to like 40-45sec for a single heal. Would you choose to heal once with these times or do half a gen?
And then, we'll go back to "Resilience is op, pls nerf", " I see Resilience every game" type of posts.
Arguably, were already at the point where 'heals aren't worth it'.
Most of the current complaints about gen speeds are just the obvious result of nerfing circle of healing and medkits at the same time. All the time that survivors spent looking for totems, blessing, crossing the map to get to the boon, and spending ~22s per heal got deleted. Instead, that time is now spent on gens.
Killers just look at healing numbers and see nothing but survivors wasting time to heal themselves. Unfortunately, survivors also realize that healing is a waste of time and just don't bother.
And instead of CoH, we are back to adrenaline meta that we had before boons existed. So there's even less incentive to waste time healing there, too.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3549238#Comment_3549238
In that case, survivors should not have a gen tracker or how many times anyone on their team has been hooked. They should keep track of that in their heads, right? After all, not getting hooked is one of the survivor objectives.
The gen tracker and hook circle for killer are identical. They give a general understanding of the 'game score' but give no indication of which objective you should focus on to play optimally.
Giving the killer an indicator that specifically said 'go for this person next' is equivalent to survivors having an aura for 'do this gen next', which is clearly absurd.
But in both cases if you're paying attention, you can figure it out for yourself with game sense as the match plays out.
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Because if you aren't keeping track of your own objective it can bite you, and the game shouldn't default to telling the player 'do this next and you'll probably win'.
It's the same reason survivors don't know every gen location by default. Sure, losing track of your objective and focusing on the wrong one can 3 gen your team and throw the game, but the match doesn't have a UI element or even any feedback at all to tell you that's happening. It's up to game sense of the player(s) to avoid that situation.
There's no reason to replace the game sense element of 'which objective is optimal for me to pursue next' for either side. That includes the killer.
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This mechanic will be just like when they added base kit BT. Tons of uproar and crying and then when it went live it was completely countered by killers who can count to 10.
Same concept here: lots of crying and when it goes live it'll be countered by killers who can correctly discern where 16m from a hook is.
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Removing collision during BT doesn't solve the problem, it just makes it more frustrating for the killer.
Because then you have a survivor clipping your character that you can't even see in your FoV who can still take the protection hit.
The only way removing collision actually solves this problem is if you removed collision *and* made the unhooked survivor completely ignore incoming damage during the effect, which really seems like a terrible idea.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546976#Comment_3546976
I disagree. From my perspective, the finisher mori ptb came about from thinking of how to make slugging more fun/less of an issue in certain situations. At which their only real option would be to let you pick yourself up, which obviously called for killer buffs in the form of the finisher mori. I could be wrong but without direct dev confirmation there isnt a realistic way to tell.
Only nurse and blight were remotely capable of downing all 4 survivors within 45 seconds, and its a massive stretch without many many survivor mistakes or having everyone injured previously. Even then the UB buff on the ptb made that timer 22.5s. I feel like basekit unbreakable definitely came from wanting to "solve" slugging, witht the finisher mori being a "necessary" byproduct.
Your first premise is not correct. They've already announced that infinite unbreakable is completely scrapped and will not go live, but the finisher Mori will be revisited and return in another form for testing in the future.
The infinite unbreakable was their first solution to the problem of killers just slugging for the 4k every game at 5 gens they were creating with the finisher Mori. It was most certainly not the other way around.
Edit: clarification, spelling.
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I thought haste was an unstoppable, uncounterable, instantly game-winning buff. Been hearing about it for at least 3-4 months now.
You mean to say that movement speed isn't actually as impactful as people try to claim?
Shocking.
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The easier solution is to match the hook timer to gen speeds. So instead of 60 seconds per hook stage it becomes 90, and when BHVR inevitably changes gens again the hook stage goes up again with it.
That alone automatically makes camping (and also tunneling in some cases) less efficient.
Reducing the efficiency of the play style is all that needs to happen. Players who want to win will stop camping on their own if it stopped winning games for them.