AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
I cant believe this has devolved into whether Mandy is credible or not lol. ofc she is. Some forum nerd isn't in any position to tell anyone at BHVR, regardless of their role, what is and isn't.
Hug tech is here. Its likely here to stay. Get onboard or try TCM.
This is just the kind of mental gymnastics that some people do here on the forums.
You can present evidence of a dev literally saying 'you're wrong', with receipts, and they will fight tooth and nail to say otherwise.
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The devs directly stated that blight's hug tech wasn't intended and they were working on a fix.
That was about a year and a half ago, so either they changed their mind, or the fix is difficult/low priority at this point.
ETA: Here's a thread from May 2022. OP directly shows community manager Mandy confirming this is not intended. Mandy is also active in that thread to confirm it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/323058/when-is-hug-tech-getting-fixed/p1
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@BlueRose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570243#Comment_3570243
It does do something tho XD On some maps a broken hook for 180sec can be a big deal esp when the may be running Pain res. The perk get even stronger if the survivor brings a hook offering that spreads the hooks out even more. I cant tell you how many time I have to drop a survivor because someone with a breakdown took out the only hook at have in an area.
And it'll take you an awful lot of games before you get any value out of it whatsoever. I never said it does nothing, I said killers call for nerfs if and when a survivor perk does anything at all, which is what this post is about.
Breakdown sits at roughly 0.73% usage rate. For comparison, Thana, a perk that is constantly referred to as 'useless', 'gutted', and 'not worth a perk slot' has more than five times that usage rate at 3.67%.
In reality, this perk cost OP, at best, one kill because he wasn't paying attention, then he came immediately to the forums to ######### about it. Which kind of sums up the forums lately.
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Survivor perk: *does literally anything*
Killers: this is outrageous and requires a nerf immediately.
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This is why lobby dodging needs to be nuked from orbit.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569954#Comment_3569954
Give me a screenshot of it while playing killer.
Because when I play survivor the smoke is clearly visible. But somehow I never see it on killer.
This is one instance of asymmetric information in the game. The 'flashbang' on to of the gen is only visible to survivors, not the killer.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3569563#Comment_3569563
so then revert the changes in the next hotfix or disable some really broken things. give us some more pizazz than tiny number changes every 3 months
They did revert this with boil over, within 2 weeks of the change.
And as far as making minor changes and then reverting them, did you miss the enormous uproar over the Xenomorph tail move speed during a miss cooldown? They literally changed it from 1.2 to 2.0 between PTB and live, then reverted it and people raised hell. (Although the bug that made it have a 4.6 move speed made it feel like zero cooldown at all, which didn't help either)
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@Ayodam said:
The thing I never understood was that killer mains wanted survivors to have a secondary objective and boons (CoH, really) filled that task. But it was complained about—rightly or wrongly—until its nerf. Now no one really runs any boon perks, and it leaves me thinking killer mains want a mandatory second objective for survivors that has no benefit whatsoever to the survivor, which is unrealistic. I think boon perks are best forgotten.
The typical requirements for these 'secondary objectives' are that survivors must waste time on them, they are mandatory to escaping or even progressing the game, and the objective can't be beneficial for survivors (boons) or in any way detrimental to the killer (breaking hexes).
So it's just a longer way of saying 'more gens' at this point.
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@tjt85 said:
Why would anyone want a ranked mode? Every game would be the same 4 or 5 Killers with the stinkiest play styles Vs the kinds of Survivors that scrape their faces against the walls at shack while looping you for an eternity. I might do a little better playing ranked as Killer, but my Survivor games would be over in less than a couple of minutes. Might get kinda boring and samey without the variation of different perk loadouts. No thanks, you can count me out.
Besides, I don't think there are enough competitive players to support a ranked mode. Wait times would be so excruciatingly long, all the sweats would be forced to join the unranked queues anyway, just to get into a game. So it would do nothing to solve the current issues that come from mixing the competitive crowd in with the more casual players.
But since you asked, I guess only brown add-ons and items allowed. Players can equip tier 1 general perks only, no unique perks. But no offerings of any kind.
Not only would the wait times be long, but there's an even bigger reason the ranked players would play unranked mode:
If the hyper competitive players all play ranked, and the casuals play unranked, then a comp player can choose unranked for easy games and curb stomp the other team expecting a chill match.
This is the #1 primary reason a ranked mode would never work in DbD. In most PvP games, if you get one sweaty try hard on one team it's balanced out by the rest of the team. In DbD of one player decides to sweat like that, well, one team consists of only one player, so that match is now much easier.
Which is kind of where we are now with one queue.
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Boons were an interesting experiment in giving survivors an actual secondary objective that they could voluntarily spend time on instead of gens first thing in the game, but they are far too weak or so incredibly niche they are literally not worth the time investment.
Take the 'best' boon in its current form: circle of healing. The bonus isn't worth 14 seconds of setup time (which you may get zero value from), travel time, and you still need a second player. Compare that to we'll make it, with the exact same bonus, is portable, and has no setup or travel time. That's at least 20+ extra seconds you can spend on gens at the very start of the game, just by not running a boon perk. And that's all assuming you even want to bother healing in the first place. Why would you ever run the boon now?
If the 'best' boon in the game is just we'll make it with extra steps, then I hope they never waste time on this concept again.
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@GannTM said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566110#Comment_3566110
+1
It amazes me how much people want to have their hands held in this asymmetrical game.
I give it about 2 weeks or less before players go back to complaining about survivors giving up on hook.
The problem that BHVR should actually be trying to solve here is survivors not actually getting to play the game, which is the #1 primary reason people give up: because 'unlucky, go next' has been the meta for a long time now.
The solution here is not the right one. They should've either increased the hook timer (for the first time ever in the game's history) or reverted Reassurance to the PTB version, but give the hooked survivor a 'press e to cancel Reassurance' option to nuke the hostage concern.
Personally, I much prefer the reassurance option, which gives survivors an actually useful tool that can be used for camping situations. It gives survivors perk options, gives players some options to choose when this should be used, and doesn't involve an easily circumvented 'base kit' mechanic.
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@Phantom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567270#Comment_3567270
So BHVR just made something to be able to point at and shush everyone about the matter regardless of its effectivity, got it.
Make no mistake, there's nothing 'quiet' here.
Now we're just gonna hear about 'the free AFC feature, OMG BHVR gives survivors everything!' forever, even though we're likely going to be talking about fighting camping again in another year or so.
This base kit crap is always going to be useless. They should've just given us PTB reassurance perk with the change that the hooked survivor can 'press or hold e to cancel Reassurance'. Solves every valid complaint and gives survivors an opt in solution that might actually be effective.
The only downside is having yet another anti camping perk that becomes basically mandatory. But having a truly effective option is better than 10 totally useless measures instead. And let's be honest, the only way you could make this feature weaker would be to literally show the killer the activation radius so they can stand just outside it.
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@Wowie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567296#Comment_3567296
i'd rather someone lobby dodge me than have them disconnect or first hook die
it's objectively worse for that to happen
I think you missed my point, but fortunately you can combat both separately.
Lobby dodging goes down just by hiding prestige in the lobby. There's no 'quick, cosmetic fix' for the other issue.
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@Verconissp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567259#Comment_3567259
But this would be bad for SoloQ reasons then...
People are gunna dodge reguardless if you're p100 or not. i was not unlucky with people dodging me.. (Maybe cause of the .ttv in the name... but still)
If at all. i want them to Atleast let us see other survivors prestieges in the lobby. or even if you're in a swf to LET you see them instead of hiding them for Everyone completely,
It's a Dumb reason though to hide it... Dbd is the only game to hide (that i know of) Prestieges cause it "apparently" Means something to them..
I'll say it again, this is the bare minimum effort to combat lobby dodging.
With players having the option to literally turn matchmaking off in search of easier games, the system can't even function in its current form.
Lobby dodging is worse than purposely dying on first hook or disconnecting in the match. Those do ruin part of the match for the other 4 players.
Lobby dodging ruins an entire match for 5 other players, and it needs to go. I'm in favor of anything that reduces that, including locking players to a matchmade lobby so they can only rejoin that lobby, if necessary.
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@tubalcane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567254#Comment_3567254
Right, I get the problem of jumping - but you're thinking as a typical survivor. This is an advantage for the survivor through and through. Why is it a benefit for them but not the killer?
It's just as wild of a scenario for an easy knock down and pick down in the gate to lead to a win for the survivor when it shouldn't have. That extra 2-3 seconds of searching got a cocky survivor out the gate who should have been picked up and hooked. Why are we only considering the survivor in this case?
I'm not sure why the us vs them here.
This is simply a matter of every player has the ultimate authority of where their character is.
So the killer's computer tells the server where they are and they swung, and the server decided that's a hit. The survivor's computer tells the server where that survivor is.
Hit is registered by the server and both computers are told the survivor is now downed.
The survivor and killer computers both respond with 'ok, here's where we are now' and the server seems that info so everyone is back in sync if something happened with latency.
If the survivor's computer said they were in a different spot, it moves them because that computer is the authority for where that survivor is. The same happens to the killer, but if the killer is sitting at the computer, no adjustment is ever needed.
This is also much more likely because almost all games use the 'shooter's perspective' to determine the hit. So the killer's view determines the hit, but the survivor's computer determines the survivor's location. Any issues due to latency need to be resolved by the server, which results in teleporting the victim in this case.
You get the same issue with pallet stuns occasionally as well.
ETA: this is almost never in the survivor's favor. The typical way this plays out feels like a cheap shot that never should've landed. So the survivor vaults, then takes two or three steps away, then gets downed by a hit that, from their perspective, should never have landed because it's too far away. But now they're downed instead. That's not really a benefit in any scenario.
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@Foempticol said:
Making prestige optional is a bad idea, killers will know you're hiding it for a reason. Prestige should be hidden for everyone until the end of the match imo.
Exactly this.
If you want to show it off, it's already on the end match screen by default and there's no reason to change that.
Get rid of it universally in the lobby pre match for everyone is the only way this actually does anything. Otherwise it's just another new reason to lobby shop.
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@tubalcane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567241#Comment_3567241
Appreciate you taking the time to explain this. Why wouldn't the fix just be readjust the survivor to the feet of the killer though?
This would likely cause some even wilder scenarios that border on a 'screw you' to the survivor.
Consider something like vaulting from the second floor of Midwitch into the central courtyard below. In this scenario, the survivor is hit while vaulting and downed, so on their screen they vault, get hit while already falling, then land on the first floor.
But because the killer landed a hit, they then teleport back upstairs and are at the killers feet. That would completely undo a few seconds of time for the survivor.
In reality, the survivor and killer are both telling the server where they are and the server tries to reconcile that info. In this scenario, the killer is upstairs and the survivor is downed on the first floor below, so the server makes the adjustment based on where each client computer thinks their own character is at the end of the hit.
This is really the only way to do it from a technical standpoint, at least with a game server. What you're asking is closer to what the was before dedicated servers, where the game was peer to peer with the killer hosting the match. In that case, only the killer played in 'real time' and survivors all had varying levels of latency. With servers, both the killer and the survivor play with some level of latency, but occasionally there are adjustments when the players get a bit out of sync.
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I will take literally anything to combat lobby dodging at this point.
There's enough complaints about MMR issues, but how many of those are forced because people are desperately searching for 'easy' games?
(The answer is we don't know, until they start making changes to combat lobby dodging).
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Start in the center of Midwitch and see who can get to the second floor the fastest.
I guarantee it's not the 4.6 killer in any scenario.
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@xltechno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565498#Comment_3565498
Do you know how long it takes for bloodlust to take effect? You are promised to be detained for a long time because it will be released by hitting the survivor or doing certain actions.
I can't bear to see the comments of killer unplayed players.
Bloodlust 1 takes 15 seconds, and gives 5% move speed.
For reference, the difference that MfT makes in 15 seconds is 1.8m. That's well within lunge range compared to 'base kit', and then you completely overpower MfT speed boost with bloodlust.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565329#Comment_3565329
Not really wading in on your guys debate, but: -
- PWYF requires messing about dropping chase repeatedly against a specific survivor.
- Is lost when you injure a survivor by any means.
- Haste in general is more valuable on survivors than the killer.
Killer strength: Faster than survivors.
Survivor strength: There are 4 of you.
MFT directly reduces a core strength of the killer... and can be used by 4 players. The comparison of PWYF to MFT is not really a fair comparison, as PWYF doesn't directly affect the core strength of survivors.
Tombstone Piece directly affects the core strength of survivors... so that is a more accurate thing to compare MFT to.
And yet, if MfT is truly a problem, then a 3% speed boost directly and completely counters it.
In fact, bloodlust is free and more than counters the 3% bonus. So do a large number of killer powers.
I'm just convinced at this point that there are an insane number of killers who have no idea how to use the killer base kit at all and the only 'skill' is bitching for nerfs on the forums.
The sad part is the bitching works to nerf a ton of stuff, and the sadder part is that it never solves the skill issue so the goal post moves every time to the next 'hUgE IsSuE' and the cycle continues.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565097#Comment_3565097
It's not to counterbalance it, it's to give it a tell. A lot of perks would be difficult to track the effect of with no indication, and a lot of those perks give a little popup in the corner of the screen. I think that would work for MFT, though it'd be a bit annoying to remember who has it, but a different running animation would be both cooler and make things a little smoother to track, so I'd prefer to see that.
I have no reason to believe that the 3% Haste, on its own, is actually too strong. It seems, on paper and in practice (from what I've seen), to be balanced enough to not be a problem.
If gaining 3% haste for losing half a chase is overpowered...
Then play with your food would be the most broken perk this game has ever seen. 3% stacking up to 9%? That's gotta be an instant win button if you believe even a tenth of some of these ridiculous MfT posts.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
As long as you can be the most dogshit Killer player in the world and still getting one Survivor downed 99% of the time, your thread is pointless.
(Not saying that the most dogshit Killer player in the world would actually win the game, but they will get a down eventually. Which is the whole point of this thread)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3565000#Comment_3565000
Nope, it was because of.. *looks at the top page of the Forum*... MFT. (I might have to edit this once the Perk is nerfed, because there will be a new thing why Killers who lost games before MFT, during MFT and after MFT are still losing games...)
Working backwards, it's been...
MFT, dramaturgy briefly, Sprint burst and lithe, nerfed dead hard, Sprint burst and lithe, then dead hard, at least going back about a year and a half ago.
But that's just the 'exhaustion' perks, it's also been BNP, prove thyself, circle of healing, medkits, map design, too many pallets, and the lack of regression perks strong enough to hold every game hostage for an hour.
At this point, the goal post is constantly moving at about 10 miles per second.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3564549#Comment_3564549
Tell me you don't know what a true 99 looks like without telling me.
What exactly do you think is 99% in this scenario? I'm genuinely curious now.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3562779#Comment_3562779
The meta before was not staying injured but using a busted medkit to heal in like 8-10 seconds without perks... People could have done gens injured all the time but decided to not do it... Also the sniffing cost the killer almost always more time than the survivors because he had to find the damn thing and walk there and snuff it and so on...
You clearly didn't play at that point.
The meta before circle was to stay injured with resilience and 99% your heal because hemorrhage didn't drain healing progress. So survivors would stay injured literally as long as possible, then finish their heal mid chase when it was clear they'd get hit.
It wasn't using medkits to heal to full super fast. In fact, a lot of survivors would use self care to top off their heal and bring a toolbox with bnp. Self healing anywhere, any time was the value at that point, and even with a medkit the focus wasn't speed, it was charges. Just like it is now, except you get, at most maybe 2 heals out of it instead of 3 guaranteed (partly thanks to new hemmhorage).
The 'stay healthy' meta came about with circle, since you couldn't carry that with you and weren't guaranteed to be able to top off that heal mid chase. The trade off was the travel and setup time.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560637#Comment_3560637
That makes it even more efficient than I thought... Great rounding btw. 21.333 ~ 22... I would get to 21 seconds there but whatever ^^
The point stays though, circle of healing allowed for overall more efficiency with healing and doing gens, and like I said before, you already had the choice to just stay injured and heal if you wanted it ...
Yeah it's cause I got tired of saying 'more than 21 seconds' a long time ago and hadn't done the math in a while. I thought it was 21.666 instead until I redid the math, my bad.
The problem is that, with circle in the game, matches lasted longer. Boon time, travel time, healing time all added up, and especially since almost all boons were set up early, it meant that survivors spent the first seconds of the match (when they are the strongest and the killer has zero pressure) doing something other than gens.
And a lot of those boons got snuffed before they could even be used, which is purely wasted time. It's exactly the kind of 'secondary objective' killers have always asked for: slow down the game, keep survivors off gens, give us more time to kill.
So before, where matches lasted, say 12-15 minutes, killers screamed for nerfs and now matches are 6-9 minutes in a lot of cases.
Deleting healing only reverted the game back to pre-circle era: stay injured with perks that synergize with that (resilience and adrenaline) and bang out gens faster than the killer can snowball. The only difference is using MfT instead of dead hard in most cases.
On top of that, the gen kick meta completely ruined most killers chase ability, since kicking gens was vastly more important than chase in every game for about a year. Chase was completely optional during the 3 gen CoBruption meta. So now, with eruption inflation in MMR, killers are generally going against better survivors, and are severely lacking in the chase skill to keep up. And instead of examining their own gameplay and getting better at chase, they are here on the forums screaming for nerfs every single patch.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559751#Comment_3559751
Oh look. another MFT defender saying its the same as bloodlust. who could have guessed.
Maybe, just maybe, bloodlust and MFT share ONE similarity of being haste related.
Bloodlust: 5% haste x3 over time. Resets on swing. Rests on pallet break. Resets on power use. Essentially only does jack on m1 killers. Exists solely for killers with no range or chase mobility to have any chance on unbalanced maps.
MFT: Injured=3% haste. No deactivation requirements. destroys the aforementioned M1 killers.
Wow, so equal.
And bloodlust is base kit, while MfT takes a perk slot.
The biggest thing with MfT is this: experienced killers have no issues with the perk. The reaction is 'i think this survivor might have MfT' as they hook them.
The real reason that people think MfT is "a problem" is because it requires the killer to have skill in something other than kicking gens (skill in chase).
But it's far, far easier to just complain on the forums for nerfs and never examine your own gameplay, than it is to try and improve in any way.
Quite a few killers on this forum take it to the next level and their ego doesn't allow them to even consider that they might not be the absolute pinnacle of killer skill in this game. For these players, it's impossible for them to think that they could make a mistake, so any failures are necessarily the games fault, specifically 'balance issues'.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3562509#Comment_3562509
I'm not defending anyone and never have, but bleeding out is just gameplay and until BHVR come up with a mechanic that either lessens the impact or works around it its going to stay in game so expect to see it. Which has always been my take on it.
Lastly don't be toxic by hating on someone outside of game because they play in a way you don't like. Defining people's in game choices as abnormal is part of that toxicity.
Its that simple.
The same consistent point I've always made in the hope people may actually stop genuine toxicity rather than hyper-focusing on imaginary toxicity.
The problem with this reasoning is that you can apply it to literally anything, including 'strategies' and exploits that BHVR *has* specifically targeted and removed.
AFK pig, stand-on-the-box Pinhead, double locker flashlight saves, and even the recent 'equip a flashlight to become immune in a locker' thing... All of those were, in your estimation, not just 'perfectly valid until they were removed', but somehow 'saying you don't like it in any way is toxic and shut your mouth'.
That seems like not only an overstep, but also a big enough issue that completely shuts down any discussion that would fix exploits or problematic gameplay in the future.
To be clear, I don't disagree that unless or until BHVR actually deletes something that you will eventually face it in game. That's just how players are.
But saying it's toxic to give an opinion about it is ridiculous, especially about things that BHVR has either removed, or has said flat out that it isn't intended gameplay and a solution is in the works (like 3 genning for an hour).
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Seriously?
It's really scraping the bottom of the barrel to ask for *alert* to be nerfed.
And an any means nerf is just weird. Why are killers looking at literally anything and say, 'let's nerf that, we really need survivors spending more time on gens instead of resetting pallets'.
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@DemonDaddy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3562257#Comment_3562257
You make good points, though the hypothetical killer is intending to win by slugging all 4 and lingering around the down.
While I will use downs as bait to draw in healthy survivors, the real benefit is forcing them from gens to pickup in possible deadzones. Also with a perk like knockout I can actually make the time to locate and pickup take longer then a hook save. This can usually grant me a little more leway to patrol and find a gen jocky.
If you're using the slug as bait, you're simply better off proxy camping in just about every scenario.
Slug takes 4 minutes to bleed out, so one survivor could solo 2 entire gens and still have time to spare before needing to rescue their teammate. All while the killer is just camping the slug doing nothing to pressure the rest of the team.
A hook stage, on the other hand, is 60 seconds and has a nearly immediate need for someone to unhook. You could proxy camp the hook and save yourself 2 full minutes of time, in a worst case scenario. Less time if they unhook and you tunnel, and far less if they hook bomb.
Or you could leave the hook, pressure a survivor off gens, and have one hooked, one in chase, and one going for save for 75% of the survivor team pressured off their objective.
Slug camping is also mostly countered by the current buckle up/for the people combo. Sure, you could injure the FtP survivor before they get there, but if they pull it off you've got literally nothing to show for it, not even a hook stage, and you still have to push through endurance. You've gained nothing but giving survivors time at that point.
Even trading/intercepting a rescue isn't as useful since two slugs can just move in opposite directions and you can't camp them both. Hooks don't move.
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@D0NN1ED4RK0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3562303#Comment_3562303
We had that before…..
That's the point.
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You could make self care into a boon, with a slightly faster heal speed to compensate for the blessing and travel time.
That might be good enough that people would voluntarily do totems instead of gens at the very start of the game.
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Is there some form to fill out that makes these posts automatically?
'The devs had better nerf [survivor perk] soon, or we'll all just tunnel harder, play nurse, and every killer will quit so the game will die'
Maybe it's an AI generated thing.
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There's a balance problem in DBD where the devs are actively pushing for a certain kill rate range. (Or at least that was the balance metric about a year ago, and they haven't said it's changed, but quietly stopped publishing kill rate stats publicly).
Unfortunately, one likely result of balancing this way is that solo q may almost never escape, while SWF almost never loses the game, which would also keep kill rates at roughly 60% game wide.
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@pandorayr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561229#Comment_3561229
the third mostly perk used, are u implying bhvr is lying? I find it in all matches because is combined with MFT.
PS: Talking about ranks brown only doesn't count.
Hope looks like two wings....... The third perk is Adrenaline.
Here is the full list that you grabbed the snippet from:
Hope isn't on this list.
So either you can't identify the perk correctly, or you're just lying.
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@pandorayr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561212#Comment_3561212
Even if it's true I edited it because didn't know that detail (I not use NOED never) but NOED is a hex totem and Hope no has counterplay.
Hope is both not on your list and not even in the top 10 used survivor perks.
It's not as common as everyone makes it out to be, but more importantly, it makes it seem like your stance is just 'nerf everything survivors might ever equip'.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560573#Comment_3560573
You do realise that staying injured on 4 people gives the killer quite a good opportunity to snowball? Not only is this good for stealth killers that often get the first hit rather easily but also for killers that want to snowball, like Nurse, Oni, Blight, Spirit, you could even argue for Huntress.
The change did not really make it possible to stay on gens, you always had the option to stay on generators and do them injured... So there is two options now, either coh was a perk that effectively helped killers and the entirety of dbd had a meta that harmed them more or and this is more likely, you are wrong and the perk was actually helping them with unlimited resets and taking pressure off of the team so they could keep doing generators while they solo heal with coh...
Also how do we get to 22 seconds? With 100% would be a 16 second heal, 50% would be 32 seconds would it not? So how exactly did we get 22 seconds?
Holy cow, we still don't understand circle of healing even after it's death.
Circle of healing used to allow the 'self care' action, which comes with an inherent reduced heal speed of 50% that's applied after every other bonus. Circle had a +50% increased heal speed before the nerf, which was when it still had self care.
So 50% * (100% + 50%) gives a 75% total heal speed while self caring in the circle boon. That's also why the healing bar was still red despite circle having 'a bonus' to heals: you weren't healing yourself faster than 1c/s.
Since healing takes 16 charges, with circle at .75 charges per second, it's 16/(.75) = 21.333 seconds for a survivor to fully self care in a circle boon.
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Oh hey, the newest 'game is dying' post just dropped.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560553#Comment_3560553
you are completely misunderstanding what makes self healing strong compared to altruism. Self healing was and still is stronger than altruism because its ONE person off gens compared to TWO. A regular altruistic heal is 16s. 16s of 2 survivors off gens. Thats around 32% opportunity cost of gen progress that will take another 16s to gain with both survivors on gens. A self heal takes the full 32% except your teammate is on gens the whole time, so comparitively it is objectively better. And unlike altruism, you have an aura on exactly where you need to go to heal so theres a massive time save there. Not to mention CoH made injury pressure completely worthless. Survivors were never vulnerable because they all had self care from one person bringing one perk. Self care on its own wasnt anything special, but given to your entire time for the cost of one? absolutely.
The current "injured" meta is infinitely better than the CoH meta because at least people are actually ever injured outside of hitting them in chase. you can actually choose to leave a chase knowing that survivor will provide you with some good slowdown and maybe be an easy down later because CoH isnt making everyone perma healthy.
You are fundamentally misunderstanding.
The self heal of 22s with an already established boon was not replaced with a 16 second altruistic heal that takes 2 survivors (your 32s of survivor time). That's what killers misunderstood before the nerf and apparently some people still wrongfully think that's what should be happening.
The 22s of healing was replaced by NOT HEALING AT ALL. Those 22 seconds (and all of the associated blessing and travel times) are now spent injured on gens instead of wasted on a health states that would be too inefficient to focus on.
Killers were drooling at the thought of making 'healing less efficient', thinking that survivors would be forced to group up and waste even more time healing without the boon. But that's absolutely not what happened in a large majority of the cases. Survivors said, 'oh healing is a waste of time now' and largely don't do it at all. That's 100% clear from the meta.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559738#Comment_3559738
circle of healing absolutely did not slow down the game. spending a minute to set up your boon was hardly a problem when that boon agve everyone on your team self care, eliminating the need for altruistic healing entirely.
This is just purely incorrect.
The time to find a totem, bless (14-28 seconds), travel to the boon, and spend 22s healing is all gone.
That happened with multiple survivors every game, several times per game. That's *minutes* of game time not spent on gens (that's now spent entirely in gens injured).
Killers are always screaming for 'another objective' for survivors to do in games. There was one, and people cried and got it deleted.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560226#Comment_3560226
Who says they were tricking the game?
@Reinami 's assertion is that the survivor 'exploited' the system by approaching shack and then leaving. But look at it from the survivor's perspective:
If you approach a hooked survivor, and the killer is headed your way, do you just bumrush the hook, or do you double back and try to lead the killer away from it so someone else can get a safe unhook?
Because to me, it looks like someone chose the latter. And it's Reinami who made assumptions about the survivor's actions and intentions.
And as someone else mentioned: this is not some four, five second deal either. Reinami must've stuck around for a -long- time.
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about when I say people aren't examining their own game play and just crying for nerfs on the forums.
Voluntarily waste 20-30 seconds of game time? Must be MFT losing you games.
Also strange how the killer has one on hook, and wasn't even in chase, technically, yet didn't have 3 gens completed during that 30 second window either. Reading the forums, gens take 45 seconds, tops, every game.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559738#Comment_3559738
I disagree that circle was good for killers but you do i guess...
That's not what I said. I said circle slowed down the game, and slowing down the game is good for killers.
Both of those statements are 100% correct.
You might make an argument that being healthy is bad for killers, but I haven't said anything about healing states in this entire conversation.
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@ays12151 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553373#Comment_3553373
Let's create a perk for a Killer like: Gain X% (1 or 1.5%) speed per every Survivor injured. Hm? It's just X meters of distance, who cares?
Like 5% per stack up to 15% just for being in chase?
Make it base kit and call it bloodlust.
Oh, wait. That's apparently too difficult for a number of killers to actually manage as a part of the killer kit.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559678#Comment_3559678
The issue of spending 4-6 seconds to heal is how much more time it costs the killer to get you injured again, players could have decided earlier that they don't want to heal and just slam gens, the option was already there.
Yes survivors could reset an unlimited amount of times without needing coordination or another teammate, it was a terrible idea because it basically removed pressure of the survivors since they didn't need to find another teammate to heal with you could argue that the chase time for the killer is somewhat equal to 20-40 seconds and that time can be undone by one survivor out of four, do you realise how good of a trade that is for the survivors?
Besides that the meta before coh was not not to heal but to bring a medkit that gave you 2-3 heals... And you could heal within 4-16 seconds depending on what you brought, it was ridiculously fast.
Sure it is still mostly players skill but there is limits to that coh made healing so easy that splitting pressure was just not worth it...
The proof is in the pudding here. Killers asked to 'make healing suck' and now no one heals at all. Medkits got replaced by toolboxes, and circle got replaced by resilience.
Meta before circle was almost what we have now: adrenaline and resilience. Medkits were used for 99% heals and that's about it.
I don't even necessarily care about the medkit nerf, as it should've been obvious from my post. But circle nerf was dumb.
Survivors spent literal minutes of the game setting up boons, traveling, and healing, and the net result of that nerf is now literal minutes of survivor time that is now spent, with resilience, banging out gens.
I said before the nerf this was going to be the result, and here we are. Circle slowed down the game, which is good for killers. Those same killers cried, got circle nerfed, and now have to play in the bed they literally ######### in.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559659#Comment_3559659
With a green medkit and the right addons!/perks you could heal in like 4-6 seconds, that was completely busted and people called it out for years... The efficency increase it gave was ridiculous... Same goes for strong toolboxes bnp... You can say what you want about the other stuff but healing has been busted for quite some time in this game...
I never said there weren't issues, because I still think nerfing the original dead hard for distance and removing DS in end game, etc were good changes.
But people use these as excuses for why they're losing games, and that's consistently not been the problem. Or at least, as soon as that's been nerfed, the goal post is instantly moved to the next excuse.
Healing was never the issue. It was so much not the issue that it's now an even more critical problem that survivors aren't even spending those '4-6 seconds' healing, they just spend that time on gens.
Nerfing circle was idiotic. Survivors voluntarily spent time searching for totems, 14-28 seconds blessing totems, crossing the map to get to the boon, and ~22 seconds healing. Killers apparently wanted all of that time spent on gens instead of heals. That was the meta before circle, and that's the meta now after circle is dead.
The consistent reason players are losing games is their own gameplay.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559645#Comment_3559645
Killer meta was always slowdown. Why? Maps are too big. Gens, on a mathematical level go too fast, if survivors play smart. Only about 3 killers can more or less reliably play without slowdown. I play Pig. I used surge / jolt before 6.1. I use surge / jolt after 6.1. For me, nothing changed.
As you said, ultimate weapon is good on certain killers. As a 2k hour pig main, i disaprove this perk on her, despite what others say. Its good on stronger killers.
Try it on Freddy and tell me the insane value you get from it.
Sure, there will always some players that crutch on some perks on killer side. Same with survivor side. You cant tell me with a serious face that WoO is only used to learn maps for example.
Also what previous perks on killer are amazing? Leverage? Genetic limits? Most of the released perks are also meh to very situational. Rapid brutality is a good example. Only good on killers that rarely build up bloodlust to begin with and hit with m1. So..... Clown, Doc, Slinger, ..... maybe spirit? There are maybe some i forgot.
Killer will almost always be slowdown and survivor will almost always be faster gens and longer chases.
A fix would be a in game slowdown mechanic for the killer that rewards for multible seperate hook stages. But that is hard to implement.
Killers will always say gens go too fast. We heard it even during the CoBruption meta when killers could force every game to go 30 minutes to an hour.
'Gen speed' is the popular outcry for two main reasons: it's easier than admitting you aren't there literal best killer in the game, and the devs seem to consistently make the mistake of listening to killers, so everyone is convinced of they ######### loud and often enough that they'll do it again.
First it was 'gen times', which was increased in 6.1 by request.
Then it was 'dead hard and DS' buy too much time. So they were gutted. Dead hard is such a popular excuse this happened twice.
Then it was 'healing is too strong' and thus medkits and circle were deleted.
Then it was 'prove thyself and BNP are OP' until those were deleted too.
Now we're back to generic 'gen times to fast'.
Seeing a pattern? The only thing most killers haven't considered is their own gameplay. Slap on 4 slowdowns, kick every gen, and wander blindly around the map looking for survivors. Then when you finally get a down 3 minutes into the game, but 2 gens have popped, you come over here and scream about gen times because you think it's been 45 seconds.
Literally any excuse to avoid the thought that you could improve your gameplay in any way. And why should you? Just complain on the forums loud enough and you'll probably get the nerfs you want. Those nerfs won't matter, because A) that wasn't the issue the whole time, and B) you'll just continue moving the goal post every time this happens.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559636#Comment_3559636
Maybe ask yourself why the killer side hasnt changed much.
Survivor has maybe changed in perks but the core idea is still the same. Propably will be forever. Its still longer chases and faster gens. The only thing that vanished is anti tunneling. But thats because it literally gets added to the basekit.
They've added a ton of new information and chase/utility perks, at least one of each per chapter for two years. Including Ultimate Weapon, which can be one of the strongest information perks right now on some killers.
Killer meta doesn't change because an awful lot of players run 4 slowdowns and then can't find survivors and can't close out chases quickly. Instead of improving at the game, they come to the forums and scream about gen times. There's literally no game where needing an hour to win (by default) is considered skilled gameplay, but that's what players seem to want since chess merchant and gen kick meta are what nearly all killer players are screaming for constantly.
It's 100% a problem of 'I've tried nothing and I'm out of ideas.'
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559620#Comment_3559620
Oh i´m not denying that there have been some other contestants on the top 10 most used perks. But its certainly weird, how the meta hasn´t really changed a lot in all those years. Tbh, i also find it weird how BBQ is still on the list.
Half the survivor perks from the 6.1 meta change have been removed completely from the list. That was just over a year ago, so saying the meta has been stale for 'years' isn't true, at least for survivors
Iron will, DS, prove thyself, circle of healing, and BT no longer are even on the list. And with the exception of BT finally freeing up a perk slot, the others are gone because they got gutted as perks.
The killer meta list includes nowhere to hide, but the other 9 perks are all exactly the same, just maybe in a different order. So if anything is stale, it's the killer side. Although about 10 months of gen kick meta filled the gap where we have no stats, so even that shifted recently.
ETA: apparently spine chill was in the top 10 last October, not DS. My point still stands because DS was considered meta, even if not in the list, and spine chill was also nerfed into oblivion and removed from the list.
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@Gandor said:
Well... I stopped playing soloQ because of this after patch 6.1. I played maybe like 10 soloQ games since, because the experience is just that bad. It's either SWF or killer. Because soloQ is just too much to handle and enjoy myself.
I've had the opposite problem since 6.1 and basically just play killer now.
I used to play in a 4 man that every killer dreams of facing: we played drunk on Fridays nights, one player loved to play 'Santa Claude' and run a full chest/rummage build. Almost nothing was efficient or optimized, just fun games.
6.1 and changes after that drove that group away from the game because it started getting too competitive and the game started focusing on dropping chase to kick gens instead of chases.
But I agree, solo q only exists as fodder to pad the kill rate stats.
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Sometimes the only winning move is not to play the game.