AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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So three things...
Pre dropping is the 'top level' survivor gameplay. This is how 'competitive dbd' is played: pre dropping and gen rushing vs tunneling.
MFT does nothing in a hold w scenario, it's ok in loops, but it's weakest in a dead zone where bloodlust is all but guaranteed. It's also getting nerfed soon, so I'm tired of hearing about it being 'the reason' people think they're struggling. It's not.
Not every pallet is the same strength. You can play unsafe pallets and still earn hits, which is why there are usually many pallets on a map. Despite what many people seem to think, not all pallets are 'god pallets'. If you're kicking every pallet in every chase, you're literally doing it wrong.
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@Crowman said:
I always thought the infection refresh back to ~50% on hook was a tad too high. I think it should never have been more than 25% upon being hook.
50% is fine.
But it makes zero sense that the infection progresses automatically off hook. It should pause until the survivor performs a conspicuous action.
Without that modification, it won't matter what the off hook infection percentage is, it'll just be a 'tunnel them off hook until they're back to 100' mechanic.
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They need to be fighting lobby shopping, not making it worse.
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The disincentive to tunneling does literally nothing here. Even with a 10% bonus to many actions, the lack of an entire survivor cuts efficiency by far, far more than this bonus.
The main problem with tunneling has nothing to do with repair or action speed, it's about action economy. With 4 survivors, you should have one on hook, one in chase, and one going for unhook, if you're pressuring correctly. That leaves one survivor on gens.
If you tunnel one out, this removes the survivor on gens and leaves no gen progress being completed, since the roles of 'hooked', 'chased' and 'going for save' are literally mandatory for survivors.
Tunneling one survivor out can mean the difference between *any* gen progress, and *no* gen progress, which is why it's so efficient. And it's also why this solution wouldn't change a single thing about tunneling.
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@Astel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3587191#Comment_3587191
What makes you think that survivors should scream when they are in deep wounds?
I'm referring to the MfT nerf. Where it still has 2 effects, but one is being made incredibly restrictive to be able to use.
Both MfT and UW suffer from the 'actually two perks in one' problem. The 'deep wounds' solution was BHVR's answer to that.
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This is an easy fix, since UW has two components (blindness and the scream) it's clearly too much to have it be readily available like this.
If we're being consistent, they should only make survivors scream when in deep wounds.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3586281#Comment_3586281
I mean, realistically whats the harm being done IF the Entity cucks you in a chase, when the killer has a single hook on two different survivors, when the 4th gen pops and its only one to go? Thats exactly when such a mechanic would be needed and you/your team were obviously doing pretty well up to this point and expecting an easy 4E, knowing that no one was in real danger.
Or when the killer gets the totally drop on unprepared survivors who are scared shitless and refuse to touch gens afterwards and he gets like 4 hooks before the first gen is done. Maybe then some pallets should respawn or even one gen auto repair 50%.
Its situations like this, where a comeback mechanic should kick in and hopefully make the game a bit more interesting instead of just a wash for the winner.
I mean, the blocked pallet is just a 'screw you' to the survivor.
In your examples, you are handing out detrimental effects to survivors if they're 'winning' and handing out survivor buffs if the killer is 'winning'.
A better comparison is to ask, 'why not give the killer a detrimental effect if the killer is winning'? So, making a blade wipe take 10 seconds instead of 2.7, or instantly stunning the killer when picking up a downed survivor for a free extra health state, or blocking nearby hooks when carrying a survivor.
Those would feel like ######### to go against as the killer, which is why it would also feel crappy for the survivor ones as well. A comeback mechanic like this would just be the game arbitrarily deciding an outcome for you, and we already have that with some map RNG (everyone hates it).
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3585234#Comment_3585234
That’s YOUR prediction. You have zero evidence to prove that. Flip side, I have no evidence to disprove your prediction. But I do know that if somebody is willing to dodge because of prestige, dodge because of hidden prestige, then they will just find another reason to dodge regardless.
I also know that while there are people that are possibly experiencing dodging because of prestige, there are also people who are NOT being dodged because of prestige. Now BECAUSE we do not have any evidence to prove or disprove anything (BHVR hasn’t published any results), it would not be right to just blankety make a decision for everybody , ie forcing everybody to hide prestige.
Then what you're looking for is a solution, ideally one that does both: allows you to show your prestige in lobbies and also reduces lobby dodging.
The only two solutions I see that do this would be to either:
- Lock matchmaking so that if a dodge occurs the rest of the lobby essentially goes back into queue to find an appropriate match. Basically stop turning off matchmaking to find a quick game and go for quality. Which inevitably means lobby dodging is just resetting the queue and punishing the rest of the lobby. Matchmaking is fixed, but queue times could become problematic.
- Lock players to a lobby. So if someone is determined to be a 'good match' and find a lobby, they can dodge, but it'll auto fill them back into that same lobby until that game starts. Might work with the previous step, but it would mean lobby dodging doesn't just give you a free reroll. Someone who keeps dodging will constantly get the same lobby and it stops being an effective way to 'shop'.
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@Maelstrom808 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3583611#Comment_3583611
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3583627#Comment_3583627
News flash - people complain about things that annoy or impede them. It doesn't mean that it's actually problematic. Different people will complain about different things and for anything in the game, there is someone out there, somewhere, that will complain about it. It doesn't mean that you have to put any stock in what they are saying. Fix that thing that annoys them most and they'll complain about the next thing.
Both sides do it because it's a player thing, not a "killer" or "survivor" thing. It's happened with every single nerf, without fail.
I generally agree with your sentiment here, it is a player thing.
However
It doesn't mean that you have to put any stock in what they are saying
The devs do, apparently. It's been very consistent over the past year and a half that just about everything from perks, loops, maps, and base game mechanics have been nerfed, and the vast majority is because people believe that complaining early, loudly, and as often as possible is what gets things nerfed.
The only way to combat that is to address things directly, like this thread is doing, where you can say plainly and specifically that, no, these perks aren't an issue. Because I'm very confident that the narrative in a few weeks (i.e. post MfT nerf) will move the goal post to the next MaJoR IsSuE that is perfectly fine.
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@Paternalpark said:
Why is this even being asked?
"Now that we got mft out of the way, what's next guys?".
Feels like.
It's more that this thread is getting on record that the perks are fine as they are, judging by the fact that no one is arguing otherwise right now.
But once MfT nerf goes live you can be assured 100% that the 'next worst thing' will be complained about incessantly. Since SB/Lithe seem to be the go to perks after each dead hard nerf, there's a really good chance these will suddenly become 'problematic' again.
It's really just code for whatever killers want to blame for losing a game every now and then. Usually chase perks, because blindly following survivors and kicking gens and pallets on cooldown is apparently the preferred play style for a disturbing number of players.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3583499#Comment_3583499
I´m not against the turrets per se. I actually like the idea of the ping warning and how that performs.
But just as the turret is a free slowdown, its also a free headstart for survivors. Which inevitably prolongs chases and gives the other survivors more time on the gens. Thus nullifying the free slowdown.
My comment was more about how the attack performs after the nerf. How it goes through survivors, is easy to miss and has the long cd (on top of being a power that can be taken away). While the power itself isn´t something so powerful, that it deserves those drawbacks.
I'm not convinced that the hit box for the tail attack is correct, and seems either bugged itself or is more susceptible to lag. Seraphor also made a good point that it might be harder to hit on console vs PC, but I can't say really because I'm only on PC myself.
As far as an extra headstart goes, it's certainly not free with the up front investment of time that's required here. It's a lose-lose for survivors: you either spend the 30+ seconds to grab, move, and set up the turret in a good spot, or you ignore turrets and get completely destroyed in chase.
This is the same kind of thing that people largely ignored with circle of healing and boons as well, by completely ignoring that the time to set up and travel to use them is time not on gens.
I'm kinda tired from trying to explain that for over two years now, so if people still don't get that required, up front investment of time is the opposite of 'free' I have no interest in trying to explain basic game mechanics at this point.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3583259#Comment_3583259
This isn't a competition.
But a killer whose power can be taken away by survivors, should have a strong power to justify something like that.
Or do nurse, blight and wesker have something like that? Of course not. Which leads to the question if they consider alien and singu more powerful, since they have drawbacks.
The turrets are literally built in slowdown that take survivors off gens for a decent amount of time and require prep and planning to use.
I'll say that again for the people in the back:
Free. Slowdown.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581861#Comment_3581861
Cool write up, but my point was how fast 3 gens can pop, nothing more. You're welcome for having something to dissect to miss the point.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581862#Comment_3581862
It's happened to scott as well, he even went on to emphasize how it didn't instantly lose the match for him:
Your 'how fast gens can go' point is that, yes, if the killer puts zero pressure on two entire survivors, then, shockingly, they do 4 gens in about 4 minutes.
Because that's how 90 second gens work with 2 people not being pressured at all.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581822#Comment_3581822
There's a good 30 seconds of leeway to address your conditions, and again, my argument was that it was possible, not probable.
Here's an example I just found of 2:18 from a few months ago. First chase started at 35 seconds, finished chase and hooked survivor at 1:13. Gens really can fly as fast as people complain they do, even if said speeds are outliers, which was my entire point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaHEBP9udlM
I know he's a divisive streamer, but he's had sub 2:30 3 gens multiple times.
He even says he needed to pressure better in this video.
He's running a build that he got nearly no value out of. He never kicks a gen, so NTH is a dead slot, NOED is a just running 3 perks until the gens are done anyway, there was exactly one heal for total sloppy value, and the survivors played smart and ran away from gens so Jolt/Surge basically got no value either. He's also got no information to go by and wanders a lot at the start and after a hook until he lucks into a chase.
- 0:41 gen 1 complete. Two survivors spawned together and did the nearest gen, likely using BNP or at least one toolbox.
- 1:11 first hook, Jolt hits only the gen on top of the building that Carlos got chased off of, so the gen with the least progress.
- 1:41 gen 2 complete. One survivor with no gen speed did this solo and had yet to be pressured since the beginning of the game here.
- 2:15 gen 3 complete. Nea/Feng likely did most of this together until one of them peeled off for the save. I'll point out that this gen was about 1:30 after gen 1, so might have been just Nea with her toolbox while Feng got the unhook. Again, neither of these two have been pressured at all yet by the killer and we haven't seen them.
- 2:26 Carlos is healed, possibly by both Feng and nea if they all finished gen 3 together and then immediately went to heal him, or maybe just by Feng while Nea did the gen. Edit: Nea is running We'll Make it, and likely did the unhook and heal while Feng finished the gen, it also fits the timing better.
- 2:33 second hook. Kate ran to the edge of the map and he got no Jolt value.
- 2:56 third chase starts. I mention this because he spent more than 20 seconds wandering blindly because he has no information, but manages to find Carlos and briefly Nea who mends and then leaves.
- 3:02 Feng gets the unhook. This is the best pressure all game since Carlos is in chase, Nea is running from the guard, and Feng just unhooked Kate. There are zero survivors on gens at this moment.
- 4:04 Feng and Kate finish the gen close to Kate's hook, and they don't waste time healing Kate here. Likely no toolbox used since I think they used both of theirs already.
- 4:20 Feng tries to body block for Carlos, unsuccessfully. I'll also point out Feng takes no hit here either and he doesn't use a guard to zone Carlos at all during this chase
- 4:43 Hook 3, Carlos 2nd hook. Again no Jolt value on this down, and this chase started at 2:56, so nearly 2 full minutes, where he barely touched his power and got zero perk value here. Nothing to help him in chase at all, although he plays around the pallets pretty well. In those 2 minutes the other 3 have minimal pressure, and Feng voluntarily joins chase here.
- 4:52 5th Gen pops from Nea and Kate, Nea procs adrenaline.
And I'll also point out that despite these mistakes, and him essentially playing perkless and without using his killer power most of the game, it still ends in a draw with 2 kills.
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Before the circle of healing and medkits nerfs, the 'biggest issue' was survivors being healthy.
Now the 'big issue' is survivors being injured.
Let's just say the quiet part out loud already and admit that the thing some people actually want is 'survivors dead' at the start of the match.
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Interesting result, thanks for running this test.
Seems to reinforce that a good player can do well even with restrictions on a killer generally considered 'weak'.
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@Boons123 said:
I see that no one objects to the idea of “blocking generators far from the middle of the map for 45 seconds.”
A nebulous and arbitrary distance says nothing. On, say, Midwitch this would either block nothing or everything, depending on what 'far' means.
Forcing survivors to sit afk for 45 seconds is a pretty massive crutch for killers, especially when there's no snowball prevention like is built into CI.
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@averagemikaelamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/395917/i-think-im-finally-done
Completely agree. I cant enjoy either role. SWF is mostly too easy when you have 4 competent people,solo queue is unplayable with all the killer buffs and the anti-solos design of healing and modern perks. Killer is just too easy to win on now that it's not engaging anymore.
This developer update just signifies the direction of "swf and killers are the only valid roles" being the one they keep. I'm tired and I'm maybe going to play DBD still a little bit,since there's no game like it,but I haven't booted the game up since the moment I read that developer update.
It all goes back to 6.1.0 for me,tbh. 5.3.0,5.7.0 were great midchapters. Nothing since came close.
The game's been steadily dying for me since 6.1.0.
I used to play casually with friends in a 4 man. We'd play while drinking on a Friday night, and would just hang out. One of us loved to play 'Santa Claude' with a full chest/rummage build and give out presents. We weren't some hyper sweaty, flashlight or gen rush squad.
We've all just kinda moved on since that patch. Santa Claude quit when the gen speeds increased and felt more like a chore, one guy became a killer main around that time too. Played as duos for a bit longer until eventually the gen kick meta burned me out, and I don't touch survivor hardly at all since about the knight release.
If I play at all lately, it's killer, and even that's been uninteresting lately. The role is not hard at all, and I don't get bent out of shape when I lose a match once in 20 games.
I feel like people who struggle at this point are severely lacking some basic game sense or aren't using the killer kit correctly, rather than there being a massive balance issue like a lot of people claim on these forums.
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I tend to use boring to describe killers who are allergic to chase, and are typically awful at it. It's not restricted to a particular character (usually), but a player play style.
Dropping chase to kick or patrol gens, or killers who are trying desperately to hold a 3 gen from the beginning of the game, for example. Can even be applied to the iri head huntress proxy camping a hook for free downs.
There's no actual gameplay there, just someone who's trying to play PvE gen kick simulator instead of DbD.
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Windows is one of the only survivor perks in the game that can help mitigate map RNG as a factor. It shouldn't be a surprise that there's value in knowing which tiles have spawned, and especially which resources have been used up, without having to scour the map after every chase.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575472#Comment_3575472
Sprint Burst & Lithe aren't stupidly OP against most killers.
MFT had an infinite speed boost. It looked wrong on paper and was wrong on practice. (I trust I don't need to enumerate all the reasons it was wrong. They have been repeated ad nauseam.) That perk had to change. I'm only surprised they took so much time to do it when they nerfed the Xenomorph in a couple of weeks.
And yet, I'm 100% certain that within days of this change going live the forums will call for nerfs to something else.
It might not be sprint burst or lithe, but that was the trend before MfT, and I fully expect it to be the go-to after the MfT nerf lands.
If not those two specifically, it'll absolutely be whatever killers decide is 'the next big thing' that's losing them games, and chase perks are usually high on the list. It's been consistently easier to get perks nerfed by complaining incessantly than for players to actually improve their own gameplay, specifically when it comes to improving skill in chase over the past year or so.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576535#Comment_3576535
We'll Make It also requires someone on your team losing a hook state, you being the one to unhook them, and is on a timer before it deactivates and those requirements come up again. By contrast, Circle is something you can set up immediately as long as you know where a totem is, remains up until it's snuffed, and can be used by your entire team rather than just yourself.
Its requirements (not extra steps, requirements) make it a sidegrade to WMI. More consistent, more available, but with a bit more time investment to balance it.
Circle isn't terrible. Circle is exceptionally strong in SWF, and moderately strong in solo queue.
I've said before that I don't care about pickrate. As you say here, even assuming Nightlight's stats are correct (which is a pretty hefty assumption), you've got two strong perks at a low pickrate there, comparable to having an empty perk slot. Clearly, the playerbase as a whole has some odd opinions about what counts as a good perk.
By this argument, gift of pain is equally strong as the meta perk sloppy butcher.
Sloppy requires you to win a chase, take a health state, and use a basic attack at least once in that chase.
Gift of pain applies the same debuffs, but also requires you to go to a very specific place and go out of your way, which is entirely based on RNG to do the same thing.
Saying these are identical at all seems ridiculous, and this is the exact same thing as circle/WMI, just for killer.
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The conspicuous actions change and disabling in end game from 6.1 were good, healthy changes.
The stun reduction from 5 to 3s in 6.1 was overkill.
The only reason this perk exists now is to reset exhaustion or deep wound while being tunneled, not to gain anything that remotely resembles distance. Especially since about half the 3s window the survivor is also animation locked along with the killer.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575931#Comment_3575931
I assume you're referring to Circle of Healing there and not Eruption, but either way, yes. CoH is a Zone Of We'll Make It, and since that perk is also extremely strong, CoH is too.
Effective altruism is extremely powerful. Fast healing is extremely powerful. Don't neglect your teammates.
Circle of healing is currently well make it with an investment of searching, at least 14 seconds of setup time, and travel time when you go to actually use it. It can also be completely turned off, forcing the travel and setup again.
We'll make it is usable immediately, has no setup, and is activated by doing literally nothing different during the game.
Circle is just we'll make it with extra steps, and those extra steps make it terrible.
Since people like nightlight as a reference, circle is at a 2.58% pick rate, which is below alert (3.12%) and is barely above a literal empty perk slot (2.41%). I think that last one says enough.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576299#Comment_3576299
To be fair,. survivors do the same thing when they say gens were increased by "50 seconds" and not "20-50"
Everyone always just focuses on what they think will help their argument hardest.
While I'm sure this has probably occured at least once, I've only ever really heard it said as '90 second gens' or 'they added 10 seconds to every gen in 6.1.0', which is objectively true with how the base game is discussed.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576299#Comment_3576299
disclaimer: i don't defend prove nerf, especially the bp part. i used it all the time.
BUT. it was not useless, there are times you kinda have to do gens with multiple people and perk was saving the day in these situations like when 3 or 4 survivors spawn together and there is a gen right there. it was best to all sit on that gen instead of spreading and looking for new gens and killer loses that gen in the blink of an eye. or like you said doubling or tripling the last gen with prove. it was not weak or useless at all, there are times multiple people sitting on a gen is the most optimal choice.
I never said it was useless, but it's almost always better for survivors to separate and do gens instead of grouping up for them. That's how 'comp' and 'efficient' DbD is played at the highest level.
The only time survivors tend to group up *and* be efficient is for the last gen, and even then it can *still* sometimes be better to split up if the killer is trying to force a 3 gen, for example. (See the team eternal vs chess merchant game).
Nerfing prove only made it more appealing for the average survivor to split up and play efficiently, since the BP bonus for prove was deleted and was an actual incentive to play sub optimally.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3576206#Comment_3576206
... do you realize that for PT to work you need 2 or more survivors in one gen, right? So it add more saved time to the base time saved? And that the argument was that it "only" saved 7 seconds (as we were talking about old PT) and that's why it supposedly wasn't that busted (like even the 5.5 seconds it saves now wasn't that much)?
And it's still not PT saving any more than 7/5.5 seconds on a gen.
So, a perk that works by percentage of the base regression doesn't have anything to do with that base regression, specially one that only work from that specific base regression and upward? Fascinating...
I mean, no more interesting than claiming that PT is responsible for a feature that works when PT is not in the game.
Nice strawman, but dare to explain me how pointing out that fact is me wanting "free wins"?
You already do that yourself. Here, let me show you:
Also, if taking away 37 seconds of a gen by having just another survivor in it is a "co-op penalty", I don't want to see what a co-op reward is by your logic...
If you fail to understand that 2 survivors taking 37 seconds fewer on a 90 second gen is a co-op penalty, then that is because you believe that that 37 seconds should be zero.
This is SO FAR removed from a balanced perspective that the only conclusion is that you just want the game to be rigged extremely viciously in your favour.
I mean, killers already have the higher winrate, and you want to argue from the position that any additional survivor working on the same gen should not reduce the gen time at all. Are you a Skull Merchant main, by any chance?
Specially when gen times being too fast had being a problem since I started playing the game
Oh, you must not've been playing for very long then.
It's always interesting to me, that killers seem to understand the time-per-survivor thing with healing, but not always understand it with gens. As in, 2 survivors being required to heal one health state is clearly 32 survivor-seconds of time, and it was the main argument for nerfing circle (because ~21.3 seconds healing yourself is clearly less than 32 if you completely ignore setup and travel time).
But when it comes to gens, there's a (sometimes willful) misunderstanding of the same idea. It takes 2 survivors ~53 seconds to do one gen entirely (without prove), which is 106 survivor seconds, where they could split up and do 2 entire gens simultaneously in 90 seconds. There's a reason the 'efficient teams' always split up on gens until the last one.
This whole 'willful misunderstanding' was the entire basis of the prove thyself nerf, which has actually backfired tremendously now that people aren't wasting time grouping up to maximize BP.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575187#Comment_3575187
Maybe we can all be happy for a bit and not support more us VS them?
Player cards are for everyone.
Made for this was unhealthy for the game overall.
Garden of joy was extremely unbalanced.
Red forest shrinking was overdue since the graphical rework. They even said, that this was coming.
Nobody asked for Trickster and I still won't play him after the changes.
Heard nothing about a new killer so far.
It's like having g two children and BHVR is the parent. You always need to please both or someone is going to cry. Soumds dumb? That's because it is.
This thread *is* generally positive, and is focused on hopeful patches that could improve the game. I'd like to see more of this on the forums.
There have absolutely been similar posts when the shoe is on the other foot that are in vastly different light. When the Eruption nerf came out there were dozens of posts absolutely slamming the devs for being biased and 'giving killers nothing while catering to crybaby survivors'. We need less of that crap.
I think the forums can handle one, single post that has gone several pages without throwing shade at the developers a single time. Maybe I'm wrong about that tho.
The tone of this post is insanely calm compared to literally anything else that usually stays on the front page for more than an hour.
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@Ariel_Starshine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575630#Comment_3575630
Thank you for explaining it to me :) Yeah it seems not worth using, maybe in clutch situations but dejavu is better it seems...
You could also try resilience if you're comfortable playing injured. It's 9%, works on any gen, not just the 3 that deja Vu selects, and gives bonuses to vault and healing speeds, among other things.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575624#Comment_3575624
Well, to be clear, I don't really care about pickrate, I care about strength. So, most of the perks on your list there definitely don't qualify; Eruption and Circle of Healing, for instance, are still extremely good perks regardless of how many people actually run them.
For the rest, I'll cop to forgetting about Scavenger and Thana (I honestly forgot that Thana got changed after 6.1.0 to begin with), but the rest I don't think it's fair to say were killed. Prove wasn't good to begin with, Reassurance joins Eruption and CoH as extremely strong, Dead Hard is still decent, and CoB... I suppose you could count that as a perk that was 'killed' if you're really strict, but it's not like it's useless, just outclassed.
That's kinda why I ask. I keep seeing people say that, but there haven't really been any instances of perks being nuked outside of Thana and arguably Scavenger if you count PTB changes. Most of those perks are either still good, or weren't actually good to begin with in the case of Prove specifically. (Still weird it got nerfed, that change still doesn't make sense to me. Must be a rare case of nerfing solely based on feedback.)
It's the same with MFT, too. That one did get weakened more than some on this list, based on this dev update, but it's hardly looking to be useless. Just requires a little thought now instead of being passive and slapped into any build.
I mean, for prove specifically it feels very revisionist at this point. I've always been of the opinion that the repair speed wasn't ever an issue, but that's not at all the common opinion. The entire reason that perk was even nerfed at all was due to outcry that 'gens are too fast' and 'prove is op'.
And as far as pick rate goes, if it drops from top 10 (>12%) to under 3% usage rate, as with circle, then it feels very cherry picked to say it wasn't 'killed'.
If you're using a subjective 'it can be good in very specific circumstances' then everyone's going to just have a different opinion and there's nearly no point in discussing it. By that metric, Thana is still good on plague and legion, and can't be considered killed either, which seems, frankly, like a ridiculous take.
Pick rate is really the only metric we can use here, since 'win rate with this perk' isn't really available and doesn't even paint a full picture even if we had official stats to go by.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575582#Comment_3575582
I see a lot of people say this, but you're the most recent so I'll ask you - can you actually name any perk they've nerfed so badly it's 'killed' them recently?
For me, recently would be any time after 6.1.0, if that helps narrow it down. I see people say this, but I can't think of any examples myself.
Since/after 6.1.0, and strictly limited to perks that have been changed with significant usage impact: Thana, Eruption, Call of Brine, Reassurance and Scavenger (compared to PTB), prove thyself, circle of healing, and the second dead hard nerf. Depending on what you consider 'significant usage drop' you might also consider stealth changes to repressed alliance and blast mine in the list.
If you're including the perks that changed in 6.1.0 then you can add ruin, tinkerer, pop, first dead hard nerf, iron will, calm spirit, botany knowledge, and DS.
Some of these came back into popularity later, because of meta changes or were buffed back, but there was a drastic change in usage rates at the time these were nerfed.
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3575406#Comment_3575406
It's not inciteful at all
Phrases like "survivors got nothing", "killers got nothing" (and other rhetorics repeated ad nauseum every update) come with inherent charge in DbD spaces. The implication of them is that one role is/was neglected in favour of the other.
As I explained, in a vacuum, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with saying that "survivors got nothing". Technically, it's true that they didn't receive any direct addresses in the developer update. However, it's no secret that this community has a big problem with division.
Case and point, the reception to the MFT changes on social media:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WFIX1XNYEZKI/image.png
Of course, the perk isn't being nerfed because it's unhealthy -- it's being nerfed because killer mains are the root of all evil, have too much influence, and survivors get no say. /s /lh
This is why I don't think this kind of phrasing is helpful. It draws a line in the sand with survivors on one side and killers on the other. It might seem trivial, but the way we talk about things matters. What we say, hear, and read has big impacts on how we perceive things. Yes, one thread is insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but as a collective, all of the divisive thread titles, social media comments, content creator videos, etc. add up to create unnecessary tension between the two roles.
I don't have any issue with the concept of the thread, nor am I "offended" by it, I just think the way we word things is important.
This change, as well as many other things lately, suffers from a perception problem as much as anything else.
You can say that the change was made because the perk was problematic, and at least in this case with MfT BHVR took the time and looked into data instead of just 'taking in feedback'.
But you have to admit that, regardless if it's 100% true, the community *believes* that screaming at the devs early, loudly, and as often as possible is *perceived* to be the best, most effective way to change the game.
And after seeing so many changes in the past year that all seem to be targeted 'by request' it's hard not to think that all that clamoring is actually having a significant impact as well.
It doesn't help that MfT had at least two forums posts to the effect of 'be thinking of which survivor perk should be targeted next' days before the PTB was even available to be tested. There is absolutely 'narratives' that get pushed regularly here, and are often pushed regularly, even if those don't match the data or other player's experiences. (There are already people claiming this change is a buff in several threads across the forums, for example).
I can't honestly believe anyone thinks this nerf will 'solve' the problem. It'll just mean the next 'big issue' is Sprint burst, lithe, or whatever the next chase perk is that comes out...
And the cycle continues with a freshly moved goal post.
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@Ginnypig said:
Besides MFt, there is nothing any1 asked for. Who tf even play trickster lol
Garden of joy and red forest have been complained about constantly. Really any time 'map balance' comes up at all.
With the exception of the trickster changes, which I've genuinely not seen anyone argue for, this patch looks like it was made to order and by specific request.
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I give it roughly 3 days, tops, before the forums are back to 'nerf Sprint burst and lithe'.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3574782#Comment_3574782
You said so much, yet strangely addressed nothing of what I said. What I said was that people are advocating changes that they know will destroy the character rather than changes to make her more fun and fairer. Essentially kneecapping her and rendering her unplayable won't do either of those things. They're not changes motivated by fairness, they're changes motivated by an historical dislike of the character.
Here, let me help you:
it isn't about nerfing things in the sake of fun and fairness, it's about destroying a character they don't like.
This point is completely demolished, especially when the issue in question is a literal, game breaking exploit.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3574752#Comment_3574752
Those changes wouldn't make her weak, they'd literally make her unplayable. At some point, the people advocating ridiculous changes need to start being honest; it isn't about nerfing things in the sake of fun and fairness, it's about destroying a character they don't like.
After three rounds of nerfs, players are still continuing to play this character specifically and deliberately for '3-genning from the beginning of the game'. This is a 'play style' that the devs have outright said it's 'not intended', and in a large number of cases also falls under 'against the game rules of holding the game hostage'.
At that point saying it's 'not fun to go against' is deliberately misleading, since it falls into the category of the flashlight and locker bug a month or so ago. That was also 'not fun to go against', but it was also breaking the game, holding games hostage, and rightfully so, got kill switched from several directions and fixed quickly.
If people are actually continuing to use a game mechanic or character to regularly go against game rules as well as the devs intention for how the game should be played, that thing needs to be kill switched immediately until it is fixed.
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There was a bug for wesker during the last event that they pushed up in priority to fix so he'd be playable during the event for players.
Let's hope they do something similar for this bug too.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573627#Comment_3573627
Thats also pretty much why slugging for the 4k exists. Its simply more pragmatic to give yourself ~4 minutes than risk only getting maybe half a minute.
Not someone who slugs for the 4k on the rare occasion I do play killer, but its a cause and effect kinda thing.
Really the current hatch mechanics are to blame here, not hooks.
Even if you deleted any options on hook other than to hang there for 60 seconds per hook stage, the killer's 'most efficient option' is to slug and take up to 4 minutes to find the last survivor, instead of at most 1-2 full minutes.
That choice doesn't change at all in this case.
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@Grigerbest said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573339#Comment_3573339
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573340#Comment_3573340
How it isn't, if it is?
You can put "killing self on hook" in the same category as "Ragequitting". It's in the "Unsportsman like conduct".
It's like "feeding" in any MOBA games like DOTA or LOL in order for your opponents to win a match faster.
The only thing different is that you avoiding the DC penalty.
We need the MOD to answer this correctly tho.
With Bots in the game it shouldn't be any difference.
If I'm on hook, and my teammate is the last survivor standing, then the best 'team play' to give them a chance at survival is to let go on hook for them to maybe find hatch.
That scenario is actually one of the most 'sportsmanlike' plays you can make in this game.
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@Triplehoo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573327#Comment_3573327
And for a limited amount of time. Like a week tops. Like in Overwatch
Overwatch also had a fairly small limit to the number of people you could avoid at one time. You got 3 slots total and had to remove someone to add another.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3573549#Comment_3573549
Yes you can. Bleeding out all 4 survivors after downing them is just using a game mechanic. No hacks or exploits whatsoever. However the devs have confirmed this is a bannable offense. This doesnt even really effect the outcome of a match, the survivors had already lost. But for some reason hook suicides, which can completely lose a game for the survivors because one wanted out, is not bannable. Either 4 man bleedouts are allowed too, or hook suicides are bannable. it can't be both.
I'm gonna need a reference to the devs saying this about 4 man slugging. I've never seen the devs respond that this is in any way bannable.
The most common question is whether it's holding the game hostage, and the dev answer has always been 'no, because the game will progress and end naturally, even if it's after 4 minutes'.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
But what would be the reason then that those people who already lost a lot of games before MfT and think that MfT is now the reason they lose games... are still losing games?
But usually there are not really many big changes in Main Chapters. Would not expect really any Buffs or Nerfs, except for really minor things, when a new character is released.
But what would be the reason then that those people who already lost a lot of games before MfT and think that MfT is now the reason they lose games... are still losing games?
Oh, I know this one:
It's because of dead hard, no... Wait, DS... Now it's dead hard again. Hold up, it's prove thyself and brand new part. Oh wait, it's circle of healing...
Someone already said it, but it'll be sprint burst/lithe or whatever new perk comes along. At least that's the next thing as long as complaining on the forums incessantly is easier than examining your own gameplay.
They should remove the endurance part and keep perks to one thing unless there's a downside or something to offset the second effect, but that's it.
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@appleas said:
Ultimate Weapon would be OP if it was the old DBD where Stealth was the common playstyle.
However this isn’t the case anymore. Looping clearly is.
Ultimate Weapon also resolves stall situations where two remaining Survivors just hide for the whole game waiting for the other Survivor to get caught so they can get hatch.
I seem to recall an incredible amount of uproar over 'killing play styles' and 'reducing player options' very recently.
Stealth is a required game mechanic in some situations. You aren't going to try and 'loop your way out of it' when the killer is slugging for the 4k, or proxy camping a hook, or even when you're on death hook before gates are powered. You're going to get as far as you can without being detected at all, ideally until you either get hatch or the save, or to escape, in those cases.
And this isn't a perk you can just play around mid game. There's no 'base kit' solution here at all, not even jumping in a locker, which was the counter play to BBQ back in the day. You have to bring a perk, there's no other choice, and it's essentially a killer perk that debuffs you on top of all that.
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@mizark3 said:
Viable Perks - Both sides have about 10 viable perks, 20 decent but better alternatives in the top 10, 30 meme or situation perks, and the remainder are worthless perks. Don't pretend Survivors are advantaged by the likes of Poised and Solidarity, just as you wouldn't pretend Killers are advantaged by Bloodhound and Predator.
Items and add-ons - Again, don't pretend that Keys are as powerful as Toolboxes, as you wouldn't pretend Pyramid Head's add-ons are as powerful as Blight's. Keys and Pyramid Head's add-ons are a joke, but Pyramid Head is 1 Killer among 30+, and Keys are 1 item among 5. If you want to bark up that tree, I'd say 20% worthless is far worse than ~3% worthless.
Cosmetics - I suggest you look at apples to apples yet again. Feng and Blight, against Quentin and Freddy. Kate and Huntress, against Twins and Haddie.
Voices - This is such a hilarious misnomer. Who can honestly say they are a dedicated, refuse to even touch the other side, main? Even most content creators are Killer mains, but don't exclusively play Killer. Otz/Tofu/Scott/CoconutRTS and so on are all Killer mains, but that just means >50% of playtime is on Killer. Even then, I wouldn't want to listen to any dedicated main, because they clearly lack the perspective of both sides. They would have no clue how annoying being bled out or 5 gen ran is. They would lack the perspective, and have nothing of value to add to the conversations. Even endgame chat is on the player to read. You can simply click the box to close the chat and check the BP stats and perks in peace. To be fair, not having a default off toggle option I think is a fair complaint.
Also Survs whined to do gens faster and they got it? 1.2.1 Gen capacity increased to 70 (from 65) and added a 10% coop penalty, 1.5.0 gen capacity increased to 80, 1.8.0a kick speed reduced from 3s to 2s, 3.7.0 coop penalty increased to 15% and Great Skill check reduced from 2% to 1%, 6.1.0 Gen capacity increased to 90 and kick speed reduced to 1.8 and added a basekit 2.5% regression penalty on kick. There literally hasn't been a single gen buff on the side of Survivor in the history of the game. If you want to get into perks, only BTL+Streetwise as well as Resilience helps Survs, and everything else is mostly a joke. Quick Gambit? Friendly Competition? Yeah, no.
Legion power stops with bodyblock, you realize you can move 5.2 by the base power alone right, 5.4 if you already stabbed that person? I don't think a 35% speed boost is going to allow for a bodyblock, and if they telegraph a block, you can easily end power early and down the injured Surv. Even such an alleged low tier Killer like Clown is strong when you know how to play as him, so this seems like more time exploring alternative uses to powers would be greatly helpful. I like to joke: 'A Clown's winrate is directly proportional to the percentage of Yellow Bottles used'.
Overall I'd suggest playing to intentionally 8 hook then first kill on the 9th hook. You will naturally develop the skills to pressure Survivors, and only winning (and increasing MMR) when you were better than every Survivor in the lobby. Since there will be a spread of skill levels, you will always have at least 1 person to learn and improve off of. There may be a lot of losses, but it will stabilize and eventually you will win all matches without much effort.
I agree with your post, I just think it's a funny coincidence:
I'd say 20% worthless is far worse than ~3% worthless.
You'd be amazed how many people seem to think that 3% = 20% right now, actually.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571989#Comment_3571989
How do you avoid getting blinded when breaking a pallet?
You can let them stand still and gain zero distance while you're blind at a pallet.
You can also track them with audio, since headsets still work while blinded.
I'm a big fan of not using lightborn and letting survivors spend time not on gens trying to be cheeky instead. Let 'em waste time going for saves. Lightborn just makes them give up and do gens instead.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571479#Comment_3571479
You've almost got it, but my point was about reducing the killer's efficiency while still maintaining survivor efficiency.
But you're not maintaining survivor efficiency when you've got an extra person in chase. You're only maintaining survivor efficiency if the only person in chase is the one with the DS, which, again, is tunnelling. Which is just DS doing the one job it was designed for.
As for forcing DS, getting into a locker is how you force the killer to either eat the DS or abandon chase
Again, if you don't -chase- the person with the active DS, it does nothing.
Even just getting downed near a pallet organically has a good chance of DSing the killer into a reset since everyone thinks its a trash perk now and it is less expected.
You mean it's a problem that DS can be used if the killer makes the mistake of activating it? That's like complaining about getting instadowned for triggering Haunted Grounds.
All the survivor has to do is not make it obvious they have DS (bonus points if they OTR bodyblock the killer before using the DS) and they are costing the killer valuable time while the other 1-3 survivors are slamming gens.
And all the killer has to do to avoid it is NOT pick up the person that was unhooked recently. If you chase after someone else and a recently unhooked survivor comes in to try and draw your attention, it is immediately, blatantly obvious they have DS active. If you ignore them and chase and down your original, non-DS target, then you can switch to the person with DS, because it will likely time out before you can down them.
Unless you're getting two downs in under 60 seconds, in which case you're winning anyway.
Also something to note about the scenario is that you are assuming 3 survivors can be on gens the whole time after an unhook has taken place, which would require one to go for the save (and presumably one more in chase) which is the important distinction: its an efficiency "reset" after the snowball macro effect has started (survivor hooked and needing rescue.)
You still need that for your scenario too, though.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571509#Comment_3571509
Spinechill only had TR detection for a short while, while they were developing visual TR, for the express purpose of fulfilling this role. And even then, Spinechill has additional functionality on top of it. Again: Spinechill offers MORE info, plus an action speed boost. Survivors got neither. Spinechill didn't get made basekit.
TR detection has been in the game since day one. It's the entire purpose of the TR.
While I agree with your points here, you're fighting an uphill battle, unfortunately.
All of the counters you mention require the killer to think or use game sense, instead of just 'follow survivor's exact pathing and swing when close'. That's asking an awful lot over the typical 'kick every gen on cooldown' kind of play style that far too many killers seem to prefer here.
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@SirCracken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3571088#Comment_3571088
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570973#Comment_3570973
The only thing that was wrong with my statement was my wording. When I said "The only audio that any of them produce are their breathing noises..." I should have specified that I meant the unique noises that each killer makes. The fact remains that these noises are only audible when the killer is right next to someone and moments away from landing a hit. And none of these killer's stealth are broken in any way.
Which leads me to explain that the claim that SM's stealth was broken is clearly wrong when compared to every other killer that has both easier access to undetectable and additional benefits on top of that.
- Wraith can keep undetectable as long as he wants and gets a considerable speed boost by default. Add-ons only make his cloak stronger with options to increase is action speed, instantly decloak upon breaking something, constant aura reading while cloaked, and completely removing the audio que for him uncloaking.
- Ghostface can keep undetectable until he hits someone or a survivor spots him. And can expose survivors to get insta-downs. The add-ons that enhance his stealth allow him to use it more often or get extra benefits after exposing survivors.
- Pig's stealth is the only one that can be argued to be worse than SM because it makes her much slower than Ghostface and doesn't give her a quick speed boost like Wraith does when exiting it. But it synergises with her main power very well by allowing her to ambush people around Jigsaw boxes to potentially get free downs.
Now let me explain how SM's "Stealth" works:
- She has to constantly micro-manage drones to keep her undetectable since it lasts for only 8 seconds.
- In doing so she is likely to place a bunch of drones that aren't in good positions and have to be recalled and placed later, which takes more time thanks to her drone's cooldown.
- She can't her keep undetectable up 100% of the time since by default it wears off before she can place another drone to refresh it.
- The only add-on that allowed her to do what 3 other killers already do by default has just been reworked to be quite possibly the most useless killer add-on in the game since Trapper's Padded Jaws.
- With her only useful stealth add-on nerfed, the only add-on remaining that aims to buff her stealth, the Iridescent Unpublished Manuscript, is completely in the hands of survivors in order for it to activate.
There's no valid argument to be made about SM's stealth being broken. It was one of the worst stealth abilities in the game. And with the nerf of her Low Power Mode add-on it's even worse.
But since Hens made a video with a click-baity title that involved him stomping randoms people falsely assumed that something in SM's new kit was redeemable. It isn't. She's still the worst designed killer in the game and removing what limited options she has will just encourage people to continue doing the one thing she's good at; camping.
I think you're completely off the mark in understanding where the problem is here.
Wraith can't injure survivors while invisible, he's forced to uncloak, which takes time and slows him before he can swing, which also means he has to drop invis.
Pig similarly has to either stand up and be detectable, or growl loudly to hit. Using her power takes her out of stealth, and she's very slow while stealthed.
Ghostie is the only one who can move normally and attack while stealthed, but it takes several seconds of setup time and survivors can literally cancel it.
SM has full mobility, no slow and can even gain her move speed to be faster, and injure survivors with her normal attacks while undetectable. There's no way to turn off the drones mid chase, which is the only counter play, without giving up a free hit, and you're likely not gonna finish the hack anyway.
Saying these are all identical is misunderstanding the issue at best.
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@CLHL said:
Because it probably only caused killers to DC instead of lobby dodge. Whenever you faced a horrendous match, the final scoreboard with the prestiges told you the reason: bad matchmaking.
We have been told countless times that the bad matchmaking was caused by the lobby dodge, but even after hidding the prestiges to reduce it, the games are as miserable as ever.
Because they only did the test for a sample size of players, lobby dodging was still very prevalent during the test. Anyone not included in the test could still see prestige and dodge the lobby.
Even if it were universal, there's still no protection for someone dodging because of 'a bad feeling' and dropping. This won't completely nuke lobby dodging by itself, and would require something like locking a player to a lobby, being much more strict with matching during a dodge (increasing queue times), or incurring some kind of penalty for dropping lobbies repeatedly.
But it's a pretty big step toward combatting players just shopping for 'easy games', and should absolutely go live even if they take no further steps in that process.
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Boil over was buffed then immediately nerfed in two weeks as well as Thana. The buff was problematic and they reversed it, but no one remembers.
Eruption was nerfed in 9 months, the gen kick meta outlived even that until they eventually had to also nerf overcharge and call of brine. Which, for the record, still didn't fix the problem of 3 genning (for the most part) until skull merchant was finally reworked too.
And there were 6 of 8 weeks in there too where merciless storm was bugged and deleting entire gens worth of progress without being kill switched.
The only difference here is how much some people are desperate to say it's the game's fault and not their own gameplay. It won't matter, because people will just move the goal post again and we'll be back to complaining about Sprint burst, lithe, or the next perk to be released.
MfT isn't losing people games, just like it wasn't DS, dead hard, prove thyself, BNP, or circle of healing either.
The only thing is that people largely believe that complaining loudly, early, and as often as possible gets the devs to nerf things...
And that's easier than either getting better at the game, or even admitting you aren't already a god at DbD to begin with.
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@BlueRose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3570266#Comment_3570266
And I never said I agree with the OP either. I dont think it needs nerfing. I just saying it is useful and you not giving the perk enough credit. Also, not all killers think this perk needs to be nerfed. Stop grouping everyone together just bc one person makes a thread you dont agree with. Also if that is how you feel about the forums then stop coming here and go on with the rest of your life.
Jesus Christ. I'm criticizing this trend of jumping on literally anything that poses the smallest obstacle in game and immediately calling for nerfs.
I'm not gonna try to say that *break down* of all things is some game winning, S tier perk. It isn't. And like a lot of niche perks, it can come in clutch at times.
I got value out of soul guard once too, and that doesn't mean it's immediately grounds for being nerfed into oblivion.
I never said 'all killers', I'm specifically targeting the group that tends to post in reaction to one, singular event that they blame for something frustrating in game, not necessarily even a loss, and have zero introspection to think that maybe, just maybe they could've done something on their end about it. In this case, it's not even like break down continues to show you a hook aura here. OP likely just wasn't paying attention, and got bit for it, then posted here. Zero consideration of whether they did anything wrong, and this person in particular usually has a massive ego that only reinforces that assessment.
I'm kinda done talking to you too, since you've done nothing but try to put words in my mouth since you first responded.