AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@MrDardon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638406#Comment_3638406
You're being unrealistic. Nothing will ever be added that blocks all gens for 3 minutes.
You cant compare 3 minutes to 30 seconds. And you can heavily deny the Killer their Perks if you can last long in chase. Bad soloq teammates isn't really an argunment, anyone can get better.
Stop with this incorrect timing crap. People did this same thing with Eruption too, to downplay the impact.
It's not 30 seconds, it's 30 seconds *per survivor*.
So you're already at 90 seconds with the first proc of the game, for the 3 survivors who weren't in chase... which is when people will first discover it's even in play.
And I'll also add that there's basically nothing to do in that window either. First hook usually means no one else is injured, and only one person has to go for rescue. So it's effectively guaranteed that two survivors are going to have to...
Just wait it out.
If your 'gameplay' is functionally the same as looking at a screenshot of a gen for 30 seconds, that's not gameplay. It's a ######### mechanic.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638859#Comment_3638859
It's not at all like Eruption because it's only generators. Incapacitated stops you from interacting with the game for the most part, only a narrow few actions are permitted, so just gen blocking is nowhere close.
You also can predict exactly when it's going to trigger. You as a survivor can see the start of the hook animation, which gives you time to let go of the generator. This is exactly how you fool Pain Resonance and Dead Man's Switch, it's not different for this combination unless there's something big I'm missing here.
I also have a problem with that last paragraph, because that's not a criticism of this combination - and it's not even really a functional criticism of Grim Embrace on its own. When you counter the combo, only Grim Embrace is activating, and so it's not "do nothing for a while to avoid doing nothing for longer", it's "stop repairing generators because that is the effect of Grim Embrace". It wouldn't be different gameplay if DMS weren't in the killer's build, not meaningfully.
Let me put this another way, both the effect and the counter play result in this:
Just wait it out.
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@Xendritch said:
It's honestly not that bad, by the time you activate grim embrace a few seconds have already passed and then the perk takes up 12 seconds so in reality the gens are only blocked for 20 seconds and it can only happen 4 times but more realistically 2-3.
Comparing it to Eruption which easily bought an entire minute each time is a complete joke.
DMS is every hook, GE is guaranteed value on every gen in the game. It also takes a 4.4 killer less than 4 seconds to walk 16m, so, ironically, you're looking at roughly 26 seconds of blocking.
So this is exactly like Eruption in the sense that you're confusing a '26 second block' with a '26 second block on every gen in the game'. So 3 survivors getting kicked off of gens is about 78 seconds of slowdown on your first hook (26 x 3 survivors). So before the survivors even know it's in play, making this essentially guaranteed value.
You also have the same issue as Eruption that you aren't able to predict exactly when it's going to trigger, even if you had perfect comms.
And, as someone else put it in another thread, I can't stress this enough:
When your options are 'do nothing for a while' or 'do nothing for a while to avoid doing nothing for longer' then you have an awful game mechanic that should not exist. Which is exactly the lesson they didn't learn with Eruption and incapacitation.
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It's not a contract issue. We already know that they reserve game balance changes as their right in the license agreement because of the stranger things license.
They literally lost the right to continue selling the stranger things content for a couple years, but retained the ability to change the game mechanics and balance of the perks and Demo.
For another example, all of the reworks for Onryo are up to BHVR. They don't have to get approval for balance changes with the license holder. Only if they changed the visual look of the character or the animations.
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@Orthane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638533#Comment_3638533
That's also implying you actually hit gens with it, sometimes you're just in a spot where you get no value from it at all.
And on some areas and maps you will hit 2 - 3 gens in one go.
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@Pulsar said:
God, I sure do love NOT being able to do anything!
And guess what? It still hasn't reduced tunneling! Crazy how they'll tunnel someone out and then get free value and make the 3v1 even more unwinnable.
What? You mean even with an absurdly ridiculous amount of slowdown people still tunnel? Everything I read on the forums is a lie?
/s
I forgot they were also changing GE from 'on hook' to 'when the killer walks away finally'. So yeah, we're literally back to the 'survivors just wait it out' meta. Fantastic.
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@CLHL said:
There was no problem with Eruption, that perk came out with basically the same effect, only the regression was buffed in the perk overhaul patch, so it was nerfed for no reason.
There is no problem with Grim Embrace, it works four times in a whole match. The combo with Dead Man's Switch can perfectly be avoided once you get caught once and you know about it, and in the fourth hook it's a total waste that only adds 5 seconds to Grim Embrace.
only the regression was buffed in the perk overhaul patch,
This isn't even remotely close to correct.
The instant regression on down did go from 6% to 10% in 6.1.0, but they also increased the incapacitation time from 16 to 26 seconds in that patch.
Additionally, there was a 'bug fix' patch after 6.1.0 that really caused the spike in usage. Before that bug fix, the perk applied regression before incapacitation, so the survivor working on that gen halted the passive regression just before getting incapped. After that fix, the gen continued to regress.
So Eruption got triple buffed in a short time frame.
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@GeneralV said:
And to think it was once considered to be the worst perk in the game.
It still is.
It's just that the bar is set so low now that anything even remotely usable as a perk needs to be on the chopping block at all times.
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637170#Comment_3637170
This leaves it open to the old abuse and is a hefty punishment for killers who do play fair. The whole reason it was nerfed in the first place.
The 'old abuse' was annihilated with the conspicuous actions and disabling in end game changes, which are still restrictions C3 listed and kept, rightfully so.
At this point I feel like 'abuse' is just 'having the perk actually do anything about tunneling whatsoever'.
There's certainly been a huge push by people on the forums since 6.1 to delete literally anything that requires killers to think or consider anything other than 'chase exactly one survivor until they're dead'. That includes 'is there a perk that might make tunneling less effective', because at this point there isn't one that exists.
And I use the term 'chase' loosely here, since most of these complaints are simply 'follow the survivor' without attempting to mind game at any point.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636280#Comment_3636280
The thing is, the killer can't just shift gears when things turn sour and start tunneling, most games are just at a too high breakneck speed. Its part of the meta: the meta tought killers to tunnel early, to then have maybe a breather during the last section of the match, just as the meta tought survivors to split up and pressure the killer from all fronts. Heck, if so regularly 3 gens pop during the first chase, then there isn't any breathing room for the killer to decide that its now time to tunnel, they either decide early or perish (or play potatoes, in which case it doesn't matter).
Somewhere earlier I proposed an old BBQ like basekit mechanic, to give killers a sort of secondary victory condition, again. I think that this would do wonders to the game. Besides that, I think that gen speeds and tunneling need to be tackled as a whole, if you fix one part without the other, you will severely imbalance the game.
So I agree that the BBQ and even WGLF BP bonuses should've just been made base kit. I think that's generally a good thing, and probably one of the few things that shouldn't be controversial.
But nearly everything else is just plain wrong here.
Killers can switch to tunneling at any time in the game. There's a reason people tend to distinguish between tunneling at 5 gens, vs *switching* to tunneling in the late or end game.
The meta didn't dictate tunneling, this is backwards. The gen kick meta locked down games in the killers favor for months. The point that was driven home incessantly was 'do gens fast, or you're guaranteed to lose this match'. You're seriously confusing cause and effect here. Not to mention nerfs like circle of healing, for example, where early game time spent hunting and blessing were deleted, and survivors' only option is to do gens at the match start now.
Similarly, killers don't just 'tunnel because they don't have breathing room'. Again, when killers could choose to lock down the game for 30 minutes to an hour, they had tons and tons of 'breathing room' and yet tunneling only got worse during that time too.
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@Bartolomeo87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636117#Comment_3636117
Are we really using the killrate argument again? If we want to look at how balanced the game actually is I’d say we should look at the top level of play no? You know where both sides actually know how to play? Well it doesn’t get much higher than comp dbd. In comp the survivors are heavily restricted, and they also usually play on maps which are more balanced.
Even with these heavy restrictions they literally base the scoring based off hook states instead of kills lmao. The killer almost always attempts to tunnel one out asap and even then usually end up with a handful of hook states and with one or maybe two kills by the end of the game. That’s WITH heavy perk restrictions on the survivors.
At this point saying, “oh but the killrate though” is just disingenuous.
The devs very specifically have stated that kill rates directly influence their balance decisions. So yeah, in any balance discussion that's going to play a role, and likely a pretty big one.
Given that it's nearly the only metric we have from the devs directly, it's anything but disingenuous. What's disingenuous is trying to throw out or discount the actual data because 'it should be balanced around how it feels' despite what the data data to the contrary.
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It might be annoying, but I don't know how much impact it'll have until it goes live.
You can play around the DMS side of things by letting go of the gen just before the hook. Which you're probably already doing anyways to counter PR+DMS combo.
And 12 seconds is a bit annoying, but it's nowhere near old Eruption levels.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634546#Comment_3634546
so, no. it did not matter that everyone agreed. even in your scenario.
in fact if everyone disagreed the results would be the same. as long as the player plays that way.
has nothing to do with general agreement.
I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make here. Tunneling is by far the preferred method of gameplay by most killers.
I've been very specifically using language to that effect. You saying 'but one person does it slightly differently in one of those situations' doesn't in any way make what I'm saying wrong.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634436#Comment_3634436
does it matter if everyone sees it like that?
Well, let's do a thought experiment here.
If someone decides that tunneling is always the correct play, then two things happen:
- They will completely stomp similarly skilled teams due to the fact that tunneling is easy, efficient, and difficult to counter.
- They won't learn as much about the game, like how to play macro, when and where to actually drop chase, which chases are worth taking, just as examples.
So this killer player will win a large number of games against similarly skilled survivors. Then, as the game determines that they're winning so much they must be better than the game thinks they are, their MMR increases to give more difficult opponents.
This continues until, inevitably, they hit a ceiling, where the survivors they are matched with are so much better at chase that chases take longer, and/or survivor teams are so much better coordinated that purely tunneling becomes a strategy that no longer guarantees a win. The killer will stabilize at around a 50% win rate and stay there.
At that point, they're up against way better opponents, and their game sense and skill is not good enough for them to feel capable of competing.
This is the exact thing that nearly all killer players on this forum describe. And typically the biggest complaints are that they 'have to tunnel', and 'have to sweat' every game. Also accompanied by cries to nerf things like coordination (SWF), looping (Dead Hard, MfT, WoO), or strategies that specifically target their only strategy of tunneling (BU + FtP nerf coming soon) because they can't accept that they aren't literally the best in the game or could learn something. Or if not nerfs, just complaining about MMR 'not working' because they didn't learn anything other than 'chase the first guy until he dies'.
It's a prison of their own making, and it's all because tunneling is truly brain dead simple, and it's apparently the only way some people know how to play the game. Considering any other option is completely out of the question.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634404#Comment_3634404
the killer probably should have. and it's possible they had good times to switch targets during the chase, and just leave op for last.
but like I said, at that point they were in too deep. Realizing when to give up a bad chase is a learned skill.
also, disagree on the first one. short first chase means you have the time to engage in a different chase with another survivor.
But you understand that's not how everyone sees it, right?
Personally, I prefer to apply pressure to the survivors and go chase someone else after a hook. Having one on hook, one going for rescue, and one in chase is 75% of survivors off gens.
Tunneling is so strong, that having one survivor out early enough will just flat out win the killer the game. And if the option is 'basically just always tunnel, it's always the correct move' that seems like a problem in a PvP game.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632236#Comment_3632236
I mean, even taking into account that the base kit BT doesn't stack with OTR, that's... still a nerf to tunnelling. Hitting someone twice before they're downed is still a nerf from before, where you would hit them once as soon as their feet touch the ground and they're down immediately unless their teammate brought BT.
I'm not saying tunnelling is in a good spot, obviously, but it also pretty unambiguously got weaker from 6.1.0. onwards. I've advocated before that the basekit anti-tunnel shouldn't trigger Deep Wounds so it can be paired with anti-tunnel perks like OTR and BT (and even perks that aren't anti-tunnel like Dead Hard), but the addition of basekit anti-tunnel definitely does not count as a tunnelling buff just because it stacks poorly with perks.
So, BT (as perk or base kit mechanic) had always been anti camping. As you said, it does nothing if you aren't back at the hook, and 10 seconds is no deterrent to tunneling.
BT does stack with DS, but the DS nerf was a direct buff to tunneling. So before the killer had to hit BT (as a perk) then eat DS. Not it's only BT and the replacement for DS (OTR) is also disabled in that one swing.
So going from 'i hit endurance, down, then deal with the anti tunnel perk' to 'hit endurance, down, then hook' is 100% cutting out the 'anti tunnel' part in it's entirely. That sounds like a pretty big buff to tunneling when all of that happened in one patch: 6.1.
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@Alice_pbg said:
what did you expect freddy to do there? you apparently ran him for 4 gens. wanted him to just leave?
at that point, he gotta confirm a kill or hope you all screw up a bunch to turn things around. which would you pick?
I mean, there *should* be a point where the killer at least considered switching targets, especially if a chase lasts 4 gens. If 3 survivors finish 4 gens, that chase is lasting several minutes and the killer is getting drastically outplayed in chase by their current target or they're making a large number of mistakes themselves.
The problem here is that nearly all roads lead to tunneling:
- Is the first chase short? Well, guess we've found an easy target, and the answer is tunneling.
- It's the first chase long? Well, the killer invested too much time and had to guarantee a kill this game, and the answer is tunneling.
So if you're saying there's actually no point where the killer would ever consider switching targets if a chase is taking too long (which is honestly just good game sense) then quite literally tunneling is always the only play.
Gee, I wonder why this is such a common way to play the game.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633343#Comment_3633343
Pretty much this.
The killer's play style has a more direct impact on their opponents.
More specifically, the killer completely determines the gameplay in its entirety. Everything in the match revolves around the killer.
If the killer isn't actively giving the survivors something to do (chase, unhooks, healing, etc) they will do gens.
Standing near a hook, chasing only one survivor, especially if you're terrible at chase, means there are at least 2 survivors doing gens the whole game. That's not spreading pressure, but it feels like most killers lack object permanence these days and seen shocked that gens are getting done while they focus attention on tunneling one person, or on literal furniture (gens or hooks).
I miss the days before 6.1 when kicking gens 'wasn't worth it' and killers focused on staying in chase every second of the match to maintain pressure on survivors.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632826#Comment_3632826
You realise you've just argued a technicality when we in fact agree?
Give no collision AND no hit detection. Problem solved.
The killer should phase through the unhooked survivor, and hit the unhooker. However you call the process to get to that point makes no difference.
That's fine, but I actually don't think the invincibility is a good idea personally.
And usually when I bring it up, people don't actually want that either.
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While this would be a great feature, the current game just doesn't/can't support it. The devs would have to build replay functionality into the game from the very beginning, so at this point it's too late to add.
If they ever do DbD 2, maybe though.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632709#Comment_3632709
Not to rain on the parade, but doesn't removing collision create all kinds of problems? Survivors clipping inside one another makes it impossible to control who gets hit, tunneling or not.
Yes that's the point. Having collision not only allows freshly unhooked survivors to be tunneled straight off the hook and bypass any other endurance effect, but it also allows the killer to bodyblock them, or for them to body block the killer. Depending on the intent and context, these are both problems.
The survivor loses the opportunity to escape and avoid getting tunneled out immediately, meanwhile non-tunnelling killer loses the opportunity to not tunnel and go for the unhooker. In both cases there is no benefit for the unhooked survivor to tank the hit for their unhooker, either the survivor is being cheated out of their anti-tunnel mechanism, or the killer is being cheated out of the ability to play fair, forcing them to tunnel. There should not be 'control' over who gets hit, in all cases it should be the unhooker who gets hit.
Survivors already lose collision in some circumstances. When a survivor is injured, they lose collision for a few seconds so the killer cant block a survivor in a dead end and score a double hit entirely free. Meanwhile some killers lose collision as part of their power.
A survivor losing collision after an unhook wouldn't be too different to a survivor losing collision after being hit. It's a brief window where the survivor is the most vulnerable and can use the lack of collision to avoid unfair blocking when they have no control over their circumstances.
Instead of 10 seconds of endurance, I'd prefer 6 seconds of no-collision. With BT being changed to 9 seconds of endurance after regaining collision so it still protects for 15 seconds.
There might be a conflict between losing collision and other survivors being able to heal them, so potentially the survivor taking any action (heal, sabo, etc.) or being subjected to an action (healed by another survivor) ends the period of non-collision.
Losing collision is a far better solution than 'stacking endurance', which would allow survivors to abuse it by scoring multiple free hits along with free speed boosts. That's not possible with non-collision as no hit = no speed boost, but also no attack cooldown on the killer side.
The problem lies in that losing collision in this game means the survivor can still be hit. The examples of losing collision on hit or in killer power rely entirely on hit and power use cooldowns and animation locks to prevent multiple hits in a row, not lack of collision.
You also lose collision while falling from a second story. If you drop onto any other player the game will let you occupy the exact same place until one of you moves, for example. If the players are a survivor and the killer, the killer can swing and injure or down the survivor even with no collision, because 'no collision' is different from 'ignores a hit' like, say, MoM does.
And here lies the real problem with the 'no collision' idea: it will be more annoying to the killer in them long run. Because what it opens up is the unhooked survivor (with no collision) will be phased through by the killer to get to the unhooker. Because of killer visibility, were already know the unhooked will disappear from killer vision while still in front of the killer. So the killer sees a clear shot at the unhooker, but in reality the unhooked survivor with no collision is standing inside, just just in front of, the killer. And because they aren't *immune* the unhooker still takes the hit instead. But now the killer can't even see the body block.
The 'no collision' idea solves nothing, but makes it even more annoying, and possibly more effective, to body block. The only way around this would be to guarantee the unhooked both no collision and *completely immunity and invulnerability* during that window. Which may not even work because the game allows characters to clip indefinitely until their hit boxes are finally separated by the players. Two survivors who stand still will permanently be clipping, and frustrating for a killer who can't clearly hit the intended target. It's harder to coordinate, but running survivors can do this too.
So, for example, a survivor being unhooked with OTR might clip into the unhooker in a corner. They can clip together with the unhooked slightly outside to tank the hit while they heal up, with no way to get to unhooker. The killer could stand there looking at the pair knowing he can only be forced to hit the unhooked survivor, which is a lose-lose for the killer. The killer either hits endurance (body block) or they get to heal up, which is still an extra health state. That sounds awful, and would be entirely possible with current game mechanics if this solution were actually implemented.
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@Xernoton said:
I'd prefer, if they didn't have collision. That way they couldn't bodyblock either.
Edit: There is no anti camp feature. It's an anti FACE camp mechanic. It's not supposed to do anything against proxy camping. It also isn't really a surprise that killers instead of face camping will now proxy camp-
Both base kit BT and removal of hook grabs are anti camping features they added specifically and intentionally.
There's an AFC mechanic that fills a progress bar if the killer is too close, sure. But BT works exactly the same even if the killer proxy camps.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632211#Comment_3632211
When did they buff tunnelling?
What xEa said, plus the nerf to DS in 6.1, and making it so that endurance doesn't stack. So base kit BT (a camping deterrent) can trigger deep wounds, which now disables both OTR and Dead Hard. And those are literally all of the anti tunneling perks you can bring at this point.
The only hope you have is a teammate stepping in to help you, and even BU+FtP is on the chopping block according to the road map.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632134#Comment_3632134
I agree with the second part, but want to add that nerfing it to 3 seconds was already nonsense. The only complaint about DS was that it works in Endgame (which it still should do, but I get behind the change), nerfing the duration just killed it.
But 5 seconds is not "all this perk needs". Killers have realized that removing 1 Survivor early is the best thing to do. With this knowledge, I can guarantee you, Killers will not respect DS, even if it is back at 5 seconds. Because the benefit of just pushing through DS is way too big.
I'm more trying to be realistic. I honestly doubt that even getting 5 seconds back is a huge stretch.
Asking or expecting things like disabling killer power for a few seconds, or even working after both hook stages is asking too much. After a year and a half of doing nothing but buffing tunneling, I honestly don't think BHVR cares about anything other than the killer being in chase all game. If the killer chooses to chase the same survivor, that seems to be 100% acceptable gameplay. And I can't really blame them, when it's hard enough to get killers to stop camping hooks or gens.
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5 seconds is all this perk needs.
It seems incredibly unlikely that BHVR will do that at this point. Even if they do, it's somewhat sad if the upcoming road map means it took almost 2 years to change this one number back.
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@Brimp said:
Its anti face camp and sounds like the killer is proxy camping so everything is fine.
This is how we know that the mechanic is under tuned, because the common response to 'this doesn't seem to do anything' is always 'well, the mechanic doesn't change that killers stand still and don't actually participate in normal gameplay, the *real* problem is how close to the hook they do it'.
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Just hide prestige. They already tested this, and the code is already there, just implement it already.
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The AFC mechanic is basically exactly as effective as the base kit repair penalty for grouping up on gens is for gen rushing.
Both are now part of the core game mechanics, but actually make their respective problems worse by encouraging players to play even more efficiently (in this case proxy camping and spreading out on gens).
It's safe to say that since every single post about 'this mechanic appears to do nothing' is met with a snarky response of 'akshually it's anti-FACE camping' should be enough to tell you that this doesn't affect anyone's gameplay in the slightest, and might even be under tuned.
I'd actually prefer if they scrapped the whole AFC mechanic entirely and reverted Reassurance to it's PTB state, with one change: 'press e to cancel reassurance' for the hooked survivor.
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@_Onyx_ said:
Killers tunnel because the gen speed is way too quick. 12 hooks does not compare to 5 generators in time to fulfill
Killers tunnel because tunneling is effective and efficient for minimal effort.
Killers actually started tunneling *more* during the gen kick meta, when the killer could stall the game for 30+ minutes or completely stop gen progress entirely. So tunneling has nothing to do with gen speeds, it's just an excuse.
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The entity feeds on physical suffering and sacrifices.
Camping a hook or gens is basically the equivalent of the killer staring at a piece of furniture for an hour and not doing their job of feeding the entity.
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@Ariel_Starshine said:
After that nerf all my friends quit. I liked it, sure, often times I'd waste time running looking for a totem but it gave me something else to do. Now it's just generators.
I'd already had two friends quit right around 6.1 because gens became a huge slog. We messed around and played drink on Friday nights, and one of the ones who quit played 'santa claude' with a chest items build. Basically the exact kind of players killers dream of, wasting time and not taking the game seriously.
The last one in our SWF burned out with the circle nerfs. They loved the totem part of the game, and used to cleanse 5/5 for NOED.
So basically the past year and a half of 'balance' changes has made the game so much more competitive that my party game group has left entirely.
And I feel like being able to self heal if you have a lit circle boon on the map is a necessary change.
Nearly everyone complains about the 'free heals' but it's a gigantic waste of time to save 4.5 seconds healing another teammate. If you have to walk more than 4 seconds to get to the boon, you're already losing time. And that doesn't include the 14-28 seconds to bless the thing in the first place. You'll likely never hit a point now where you break even, you *always* waste time using circle now.
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Don't worry, with the changes coming to grim embrace these killers will have a perk that literally tells them exactly how far to stand to do this now.
AFC and the new grim embrace both have exactly a 16m limit, so the killer can just stop moving over the perk activates.
The only thing they could've done to make the current iteration of AFC less effective is to give the killer a visual indicator that is disabled... And apparently they're doing exactly that.
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@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612327#Comment_3612327
"Killers" wanted this meta. Literally who? We asked for reasonable COH nerfs which did happen, but then they went back and hit it again with a nerf because boons are a badly mechanic in general. Medkits needed some kind of nerf it would have been fine to just nerf charges slightly, heal speed (mostly green medkit self heal speed), addons, or efficiency yet they hit it with a wide range of nerfs. Chase perks are fine, just not when they're uninteresting haste bonuses for getting hit or free hits for losing gens.
You just described killers asking for literally every change that led to this meta.
And chase perks like MfT and dead hard's *second* nerf absolutely fall into the chase perk category. Let's not pretend that woo, buckle up, and ftp aren't also on the list of complaints. It's just that woo isn't on the road map, and bu/ftp are next on the chopping block.
This is almost exactly the meta killers asked for, even if it's not the one they *wanted*. The only thing that people want differently is to revert the nerfs to the gen kick meta perks and it would basically be the perfect, unlosable game for the average forum killer.
Edit: spelling
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3620019#Comment_3620019
"Just injure everyone" is the new "Just wait it out".
With an addition of an actual "Just wait it out" thanks to the 10 seconds of Endurance.
This is exactly what killers cried about for healing nerfs before medkit and circle got gutted.
People whined that healing was too easy, they nerfed the crap out of it so most people stay injured. Staying injured is complained about incessantly, sand apparently wasting time healing is too much and getting complained about too now.
At this point just come out and say it's too hard for you if survivors don't start out on hook at match start.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3619830#Comment_3619830
They could fix this very easily.
Lock ranks. Brown to green can match only with each other. Purple to red with each other. Now except few days after rank reset, you have pretty much good matchmaking.
And also for fixing lobby dodge, just lock it too. If you joined lobby, you will stay until match ends. And you also can hide survivors and show only their portraits, that also could fix it.
But no, instead of improving old system they replaced it with worse.
Locking to lobbies, or some other effective way to prevent lobby dodging should go into effect regardless.
I'm pretty convinced we aren't getting a full picture of this MMR system, since dodging lobbies simply turns it off entirely. I know some people claim lobby dodging isn't a big issue, but in reality we don't actually know how much this is affecting the game as a whole.
BHVR is convinced their system works, players are not convinced it works, yet players also have the option to turn it off to try for easier games. Seems obvious to me that the opt-out part of the system should be the first thing to go here.
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@Zenislev said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3619642#Comment_3619642
In ways that have very simple and straight forward counterplay, yeah. Did they kick the gen? Tap it. Done. The gen is no longer regressing. Even if you let it regress for a while, they butchered all the gen kicking perks so it'll take no time at all for you to get your progress back to where it was. When you're doing a chase, there are, at a minimum, 3 survivors on gens, but lets be charitable and assume that the FtP/buckle up player is just tailing the killer for the entire chase. Let's also assume that the chase takes the absolute minimum of 45 seconds, since that's the expected time per chase the devs have tossed out here and there. Gens take 90 seconds to complete, so 2 people on gens is enough to either complete one gen or have 2 gens halfway done.
The killer downs someone and in the time it takes them to clean their weapon, the other survivor gets picked up. At a minimum, that's 10 extra seconds of chase time added, assuming the killer knows what's going on and waits it out, but in those 10 seconds, they'll reach a structure, meaning you're going to get even more time, so at a minimum that's 20 extra seconds of gen time for each survivor on the gen, but realistically it's going to be significantly longer. By default, gens regress at 1/4th the rate that survivors can do them in so it would so, by comparison, regressing a gen from halfway would need 180 seconds of uninterrupted regression.
Can you see how this comparison is nowhere near comparable?
Ftp+bu is anything but uncounterable. Ftp only functions if the survivor is healthy. Injuring survivors is *checks notes* ah yes, base kit for every killer.
And healing was nerfed for this exact reason too. So that second survivor is off gens for free, has to waste time healing to make it work, and all the killer has to do is be aware of their surroundings.
If you're getting bitten by this combo, a simple flashlight save does the same thing but is easier to pull off for the survivors. Or you're just wanting that second survivor to be banging out gens instead, which I'm sure is the next thing to be complained about after this 'change' (nerf) goes live. This is already on the road map, so I don't even know why people are complaining about this combo. BHVR is already catering to killers whining on this one.
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@Zenislev said:
If you don't think it's problematic, then hey, how about we give killers a perk that lets them delete a chase. Let's say, a perk that can be activated every 60 seconds that lets them phase through an obstacle. I mean hey, if it's fine for survivors to invalidate a killer's play with no repercussions and no counter play, then it should be fine for killers to be able to do the same right?
Literally the entire killer meta revolves around undoing survivors' objective progress.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3619089#Comment_3619089
That wasn't their point. Half of the strength of DS was having to assume everyone is running it, which in turn makes it not actually necessary to run in order to still get value. They were saying if there was some type of indication it was in play, that would remove that bonus, while still allowing it to have a longer stun and do its job to counter tunneling.
And having an indicator makes it a mandatory perk to run.
The entire point of the perk should be to make killers pause and actually reconsider whether they are tunneling the player or not. I'm really not a fan of the recent trend where somehow killers seem to expect to win without ever thinking anything more complex than 'chase the first guy I've hooked until they're dead'.
This entire 'having an indicator' has never really been a thing in the game. The only perk that does this is no mither, which is hilariously bad.
Where's the indicator for pain res being in play? I'm tired of letting go of gens every game to play around pr/dms for the past two years. Or the indicator for Eruption, which also has/had no warning that it was in play? The answer is there isn't one (and for the record, shouldn't be one), because part of playing the game is the unknown of what the other side is bringing to the table.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617890#Comment_3617890
I'm purposefully comparing this combo to previous things that were so broken they either were nerfed or caused game wide changes. This wasn't an accident. The argument presented FOR the inclusion of the combo is that it can be used to combat tunneling... but just like every other example, it's equally countering going after ANY survivor at any time.
Again, the fact that you're having to go back a minimum of 4 years to use examples isn't helping your case.
It's extra funny to me, because 'don't permanently sabotage hooks' is literally the killer rulebook from when the game came out. In exchange for not using the broken thing, survivors expected to not be tunneled out of the game. One of those things got nerfed and deleted, the other is in essentially every single game today.
Which also means that when (not if, because it's already on the road map) bu+ftp is nerfed, people will just complain about Windows, distortion, or alert or some crap until that also gets nerfed. And tunneling will be even stronger yet again.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617855#Comment_3617855
The fact that we're talking about perks that can be used over and over, rather than items makes it STRONGER. The needle can be used 1 time, then you gotta find another needle in your BW. The perks are only limited to how many times you heal up.
If you want to compare perk to perk though...
Permanantly saboing every hook on the map could ALSO protect a survivor against being tunneled. It also equally applies to everyone else.
My favorite part of this exchange is that you've now given the third example of a perk or ability in the game that's been removed or severely nerfed, but comparing it to a current, base kit ability.
Perma sabo hasn't been a thing since October 2018. Insta blind was removed in 2017. Instant heal styptic was removed in October 2019.
So not only have your examples long since been deleted from the game, several years ago in fact, you seem to be implying heavily that tunneling should've been dealt with about 4-6 years ago as well.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616242#Comment_3616242
And I said that?
I just proposed to give the killer a little information about the upcoming match, so that they can go in better prepared.
Playing the match out is still up to the players.
I have no problem with losing. I try to learn from mistakes. But it's not my mistake, that I didn't know if the team I went against was a 4man death squad or a soloq fun party.
I believe, that many players come here to talk about their losses because matches where you lost are more engrained in your memory than the ones you win. At least for the most part.
Many people seem to have problems with losing , which is sad but understandable. It's a game. Wanting to win is understandable. Calling the game unbalanced because the other side won in a game where multiple mistakes happened is absolutely wrong.
No, you didn't say that, which is why your original post is called a false dilemma. You offered two options and asked them which was the correct one, when there is a perfectly valid third option available.
I'm glad you don't get ego involved in the game, that's a good thing. But that absolutely isn't true of most forum users here.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616228#Comment_3616228
So your answer is basicly sweat every game or dodge?
What?
The answer is to not get bent out of shape by losing a single game.
I never understand this mentality that losing a match is somehow an indicator of imbalance or something that needs correcting.
Even the top, #1 players lose sometimes. And, spoiler alert, despite what people think internally, the average forum user here is not the entity's gift to DbD and is very far from being 'the top'. In most cases, it's just ego and people who can't handle the idea that they might just not be the 'max MMR god tier skilled player' they claim to be.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615915#Comment_3615915
With perks that are specifically designed to counter items, this doesn't make sense. You'd need to overhaul all of them, if the lobby was skipped altogether.
They could however change the lobby, so that killers don't see prestige and can't check the survivors' hours either.
So, lightborn, franklins, and unnerving presence?
This wouldn't break the game in any sense. You already have perks that may not work, but you choose in the dark. Survivors bringing distortion even if the killer has no aura reading abilities or perks, and the killer bringing iron grasp even if no one has wiggle/carry perks.
Unless you're saying that counter force should indicate in the lobby that the killer is or isn't running hexes, but that seems silly.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613857#Comment_3613857
Do we know how hard it is to reach this softcap? Is it a situation similar to red ranks? How much can the skilled people go above it? How wide is the matchmaking parameter to include the bulk at the soft cap to shorten queue times for the top percent?
I would argue that the softcap makes this issue even worse because we don't know how far the top percent can even get above it and how wide the algorithm picks from and how it matches them.
You're answering the wrong question. You're asking 'If we choose the killer and survivor teams at random, what are the odds we get a top 1% team on each side?'
That's not the question I'm responding to, nor is it relevant to a killer win streak conversation. We're looking at 'what are the odds a top 1% killer gets a top 1% survivor SWF when the killer queues up?'
Again, these are killer win streaks, so it *only* matters if that exact killer player is in the game. A match with any other killer player doesn't count against their streak and, for the purposes of this conversation, we don't care about that game. It doesn't count against my win streak if you lose, for example.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613607#Comment_3613607
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613643#Comment_3613643
First of all, I don't really care about this win streak argument but wanted to correct the fact that matchmaking only ever worked like @Firellius said for a very short time around the implementation of sbmmr, which led to insanely long queue times for the top of both sides. After that it got changed and then softened at least once again. So even my 10-20% might be a low guess.
Second, @AmpersandUnderscore your statistics are based on a wrong assumption.
Tldr: You forgot that the matchmaking algorithm doesn't only pit the 1% killer against the 10-20% survivor but the same bracket percentage on both sides with however much skill comparison really involved so the chance can be waaay lower than the 5% in this example.
For the sake of the arguments I will use idealized factors like 20% fix for the top bracket used by the matchmaking, instead of 10-20% and 1killer/a 4men squad for each %.
The matchmaking algorithm is also assumed as purely RNG in the respective bracket, seeing how many people question it on regular basis on here and my personal experience that ranged from 4men swf styling on me to 4 obvious solo so bad I had to carry them to the exit in consecutive matches, despite the same playstyle for 50-100 hours during my experiment. Also because any real factoring of the algorithm would be pure speculation and make this whole thing too complicated for my after-work-brain right now.
So with that out of the way:
Even if the numbers work out the way you describe here, that 1% player is going to go up against a 1% opponent either 10% of the time or 5% of the time (using your top 10-20%).
So in 100 games, they're up against that top 1% team at least 5 or 10 times. By the time they hit 1000 games, it's 50 or 100 times, which means they're still unstoppable against a similarly skilled team.
No matter how the matchmaking algorithm works it never only puts the 1% killer (1player) vs the 20% survivor (20 4men swf) but all 20% killer vs the 20% survivor.
So the chance of the the top 1% meeting the other 1% isn't simply 5% but, just like rolling a 1 on a d20 twice in a row 1/20 times 1/20, so 1/400 aka 0.25%.
Of course this doesn't take any real work of the algorithm into consideration but also not the real amount of players in each of the % on either side. That ratio could be the perfect 1/4 but is more likely to be 1/3 or 1/2 or even more on the killer side because to be one of the 1% on killer side needs only one person and for survivor 4 need to work together.
So with my idealized model the chance of this blight main that has his 1,6k win streak to meet a swf on the same level would amounts to 4 games.
It's a win streak for the killer. The killer is fixed and has a 100% chance to be in that match (from their own perspective). There isn't a 'chance' on the killer roll when it's the killer queueing up.
The only variable here is the opponent.
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@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613569#Comment_3613569
Because matchmaking never worked that way?
At the best of times it pitched top 1% player against the top 10-20% to reduce queue times and that's only a guess already. It then got even sloppier when they softened everything about matchmaking.
Only at the beginning of sbmmr was it even close to what you describe and that ended with those 1% having 2hour+ queue times.
Even if the numbers work out the way you describe here, that 1% player is going to go up against a 1% opponent either 10% of the time or 5% of the time (using your top 10-20%).
So in 100 games, they're up against that top 1% team at least 5 or 10 times. By the time they hit 1000 games, it's 50 or 100 times, which means they're still unstoppable against a similarly skilled team.
The current SWF escape streak is about 220 ish games in a row, with a 4 man comp team SWF, which is the strongest force in the universe according to the forums. And yet they were beaten and the streak broken, which is what you'd expect from anything resembling balance in a game.
Having a killer steak this long is concerning at a minimum. Having it be determined by play style and not particular perks or abilities/add-ons makes it more concerning, since a play style is more difficult to balance. It's actually be nice if it was an obvious outlier of 'oh, clearly this add-on is overtuned', but the fact that blight, clown, twins, and nurse were the top 4 streaks last time I saw a full list means that tunneling is so strong even m1 killers can be unstoppable.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613228#Comment_3613228
I'm literally saying the opposite.
If it takes the killer 30 seconds to land a hit, but with things like CoH it only takes the survivor 12-15 seconds to heal that hit, then that is by definition less time efficient for the killer. The self healing changes made it so hit and run became viable again because now if survivors want to self heal, they must do it much slower (such as with self-care) and now medkit is slower, and also the medkit is much more limited than before, so you either make it faster, or you get 1 more heal out of it.
This means that when healing, survivors are likely spending 2 survivors healing for 16 seconds. Which is a total of 32 seconds off the gen for the team (2 survivors healing each other) on top of the time it takes them to find each other (although that can be mitigated with healing near gens and such).
This means that hitting a survivor and leaving them, is now generally a gain of time for the killer if you can do it in 30 seconds or less.
The problem though is 2-fold.
The killer is extremely weak in the early game due to having 4 survivors who have nothing to do but gens, and also due to the many unmindgamable god pallets in the game. But at the same time, people say they don't like 3 genning. The reality is, against a decent survivor team, that first chase and hook will probably cost the killer 2-3 gens. Meaning that survivors already are well on the way to winning and the killer is just barely getting started. Generally its going to take the killer around 20 seconds to cross the map and start a chase, then another 30 seconds to land a hit, then another 20 seconds to land a second hit (and this is assuming the survivor doesn't use pallets and the killer wins the mindgame each time). Then factor in the unmindgamable god pallets that MUST be broken, and the fact that a broken pallet gives a survivor 20 seconds of distance and that gens take 90 seconds....
20 seconds to find and start a chase
30 seconds for the first hit
20 seconds for the second hit
3 second pickup animation
7-10 seconds walking to a hook
1.5 second hook animation
That's 81.5 seconds. And that is assuming it all goes perfectly, the survivor doesn't hide, the chase starts right away, and you win both mindgames for the hits. Now factor in 20 seconds of distance for just predropping a god pallet? And you lost 3 gens there to down that first survivor, and all they had to do with shift + w straight to shack, predrop the pallet, and shift + w to a corner of the map. And then you wonder why nurse and blight are top tier? Because they can end those chases in 15-20 seconds instead of 45-50.
If they did something to even out the curve, perhaps through something like the early trial warmup mentioned by scott jund a while back. Maybe a basekit corrupt that blocks all gens except the ones near the killer at the start, that ends as soon as a chase starts, or a survivor gets injured or the killer interacts with them. Or some other mechanic to slow the game down at the start. Then of course we take some of that new time we just added to the killer side away from the 3-gen, and you'll have a much more evenly spaced out time for the game.
Your numbers are all over the place. For example, healing yourself with circle took a little over 21 seconds, not 12-15. And that doesn't include the travel time, bless time, or time hunting for a totem.
And that's not the only place your numbers are, let's say, exaggerated.. but for sake of argument, let's run with your math.
In your 'doomsday' scenario, the killer has their first hook just before the survivors finish 3 gens, since one was in chase, and the other three are healthy. The killer has just established pressure, and now the cycle of 1 on hook, 1 going for rescue, and one in chase can continue for the rest of the game.
The survivors also lose at least 2 of the 3 that were on gens to survival objectives like rescuing and chase, cutting the efficiency on gens to, at best, 33%. This actually drops to zero if the killer power contains any slowdown whatsoever, because now the one on gens has to go solve the cube, walk a zombie away, move a tape to a tv, set up a turret, grab an emp, disable a drone, or similar.
Not to mention a killer with movement, teleport, or anti loop can literally ignore one or more of those 'large investments of time' you list. Nurse, blight, spirit, wesker, or even teleport killers aren't taking a ton of time getting into chases, it's nearly instant depending on the scenario. Similar thing with insta downs cutting chase times in half.
And while I still think your numbers are completely off without having a video example or something, you're arguing the most recent circle nerf traded 20 seconds for a second hit, in exchange for minimum 21 seconds of healing, travel, and free voluntarily slowdown to set up. You're making the exact argument that the most recent circle nerf should be reverted to slow down early game for the killer at no actual cost later in the game either (a net gain, actually since resilience doesn't work healthy and survivor spends even more time traveling to the boon). Reverting that nerf is a win-win for the killer in your scenario.
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@Toaster427 said:
Except they've never once said that a killer standing by a 3 gen is "holding the game hostage". In fact I'm pretty sure they said the opposite of that. Why weren't all those 3 gen skull merchants banned then when it was going on?
This is why thier comments make zero sense.
So a killer can do nothing but stand there preventing the game from progressing all they want with zero risk of being banned, but a survivor who chooses to play smart and not just throw themselves on the ground to be killed can be banned....wow that makes so much sense! 🙄
Here you go:
@Peanits said:
If they are making no attempt to down anyone and purely stalling the game by keeping everyone in madness 3, only downing and slugging them if they refuse to move, that would be considered holding the game hostage. We would need to see that they are doing this for a long time, though, not just a couple minutes. The 3 gen strat on its own is not bannable, it only become an issue when it's being used to grief instead of win.
And they said it again more recently with skull merchant as well.
Basically if the killer is holding a 3 gen and not downing or hooking survivors for an extended period of time is a hostage situation and could be bannable.
So any killer who just injures the survivor(s) and then goes back to gen kicking/patrolling for a long time (like SM typically does) is against game rules. Straight from the devs.
Edit: replied to the wrong person initially, oops.
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@MigrantTheGreat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612327#Comment_3612327
CoH (boons in general): If BHVR had made boons work like Hex's, than Boons would have never been a problem
Medkits and Healing: Idk who asked for this but I'm putting the blame on BHVR's poor choice of balance because of CoH (Even though medkits themselves weren't a problem)
Second Chance perks: These had to go, because killer's are too dependant on survivor's making mistakes, on top of that DH for distance extended chases pretty much screwing the killer over.
DS: Imo this perk needs to be deleted because of how unhealthy it is. The 6yrs I've been playing this game, the perk always makes it into patch notes at least once a year weather it's a nerf or a buff. I don't have a problem with the perk (its current state at the time of this comment) but it either needs to become forgotten or staked in the heart.
Edit: Spelling Error
Killers specifically asked for these nerfs.
Circle (or boons) as a single use mechanic would never be used, giving us the same 'injured and gen rush' meta we had before boons, and coincidentally have right now after the circle nerf.
I don't know what kind of revisions history is going on here, but medkits have been complained about incessantly for longer than circle has existed.
DS disabling in end game and the conspicuous action nerfs were/are fine. The nerf to 3 seconds, of which ~1.4 seconds the survivor is animation locked as well, is not fine. DS doesn't do it's job as anti-tunneling anymore because of the stun duration nerf.
The only reason people run DS right now is to reset endurance and exhaustion exactly once per game. It does nothing whatsoever to deter tunneling with the 3 second duration... So yeah, I'm not surprised that people 'have no problem with' a perk that doesn't do anything.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612621#Comment_3612621
Yeah but OG was 100% which 200% healing speed divided by half was 100%. They can implement boons but not the way COH was done.
Dude, you're arguing a version of the perk that was nerfed immediately after launch in January 2022 (patch 5.5.0).
That's almost exactly 2 years ago now, before the 'meta shakeup' in 6.1.0, and not the version that got gutted with the medkit changes recently.
We've had the 50% version since in April 2022 (patch 5.7.2). That's the one I'm talking about, and the version of the perk that's existed for almost all of the perk's existence until the most recent healing nerfs.