AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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All my friends have quit because the game isn't fun anymore.
The games are so one sided it's basically decided in the first couple minutes. If you don't get at least 2-3 gens done in the first chase, sorry you lose that game. There's no comeback mechanic to catch up later, and the killer will just tunnel someone out.
There's not really any fun moments any more, it's just a speed run to finish the match.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660738#Comment_3660738
"free chance to unhook yourself" Yeah no.
This response is exactly why I jumped straight to 'this would just be a cutscene'.
For all of the killer whining about 'not having autonomy' there's certainly zero consideration of that for survivor gameplay.
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@Hitman2000 said:
pls stop the double standard
if u work on a gen do u complete the gen only until u reached 33% or do u finish the gen up to 100%
tunneling is the same on the other side :)
its really that easy
Among other reasons like gens aren't players, survivors might play like this if gens locked in progress and couldn't regress below certain break points like 33%, 67%.
You know, like how hook stages are permanent and can't be removed.
Just two of many ways these things aren't remotely equivalent.
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@Firellius said:
It isn't, but any perk with a 120 second wind-up that ends up being overall 'useful' must have an effect powerful enough to net complaints from the killer community. And that's gonna get it nerfed immediately.
Let's be real, any match where this perk gets any value whatsoever is going to be complained about instantly. Even in its current, useless form.
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Killers would just body block the basement stairs or a totem in a corner and go afk for an hour.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660651#Comment_3660651
Yeah, i am guessing same.
It's fine to make comp killers play against same level survivors. They asked for it, they should.
I'm of the opinion that MMR is the only change the devs have made in several years that has actually been a punishment to tunneling.
Killers in general only want to win and use nearly every tool they can to win. The secondary effect here is that they inflate their MMR to the point where they are in way over their heads and have no idea how to compete. This currently applies tunneling and camping, but has also included cobruption meta and 3 genning in the past year and a half.
But I agree with the devs: the part of MMR that works decides that if someone is winning too much they are getting games that are too easy for them. It's just that killers can choose tactics (or sometimes busted meta) to just outright convince the system to inflate their MMR and they go against players much better than their opponents. The part of MMR that doesn't work is when backfill turns off matchmaking and pairs players with 'fastest match' instead, which is why people are so in love with keeping lobby dodging in the game. It's the only way to manipulate the system to give them easier games.
Killer is a 'choose your difficulty' role, especially because there's no team to rely on. You can pick 'play chill, and win about 60% of your games', or 'tunnel for easy wins for a while, until the matchmaker inflates your MMR to the point where you sweat every game, and still win about 60% of the time'. Most people choose the latter option and blame the game.
You see the effects of it in nearly every post on these forums: killers claiming they 'have to tunnel' to win because they've inflated their MMR to a point that's all they can think of to do, getting better isn't an option for these 'killer gods'. Or they'll target the flavor of the month perk and blame that for a lost game.
And when there's no 'outlier' game mechanics, you'll see a huge increase in cheater posts. Because, for most people's egos, it can't possibly be that they aren't the literal best killer the game has ever seen... there's absolutely no way they can ever improve their own gameplay. It *must* be something else: game balance, perk is OP, recent nerf, or someone is just cheating. Introspection or personal skill can't ever be on the table because of ego.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659822#Comment_3659822
The problem with it is free dc's.
If this was actually the main concern, then the argument should be that the 3 Kobe attempts should not remove hook stage progress. That solves the dc issue and leaves the hooked survivor with at least something to do other than a 60 second cut scene of being hooked with zero autonomy in game.
That's not the argument in this post, they (and you) are arguing the 4% should be removed completely. Which effectively makes the core game survivor gameplay after a down a cut scene.
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@saym said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659007#Comment_3659007
So Lights out is on and queue times in normal mode have increased?
Developers cannot use time as an excuse.
Lights out is the pinnacle example of why comp mode would not work.
That game mode had literally zero. ZERO. 'Gen rush' built in, yet every single game was tunnel and camp. You can make it 'casual' or 'fun' as much as you want, and simply because one team has only one player, if that player decides it's time to sweat, well your match is suddenly competitive.
That's why a competitive mode will never work in an asymm game. In a symmetric game the 'one sweaty player' gets diluted by playing on a 'casual team', but that can't ever happen when one team is only one player.
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I don't really care about the kill rate or win rate, as long as the core gameplay is fun.
It's rather have a 65% kill rate or higher with fun gameplay than the 'balanced', sweaty slog the game is right now.
Sacrificing 'fun' for balance has been a flaw in the game recently.
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@appleas said:
Probably not.
I don't see the point of handicapping yourself as well. There's no tangible reward for doing so. Even the killer UI doesnt tell you who you've hooked or haven't hooked so devs clearly aren't trying to encourage multiple hook games as well.
The UI only doesn't tell you if you aren't paying any attention whatsoever. It literally shows the health state of every survivor in order top to bottom, including hooks.
Even if you're against 4 Neas you can still know you've hooked the second nea twice because of the Ui information.
Just because you don't get hash marks doesn't mean you don't have access to this information at all. In every other game I've ever played this is called 'game sense'. It's literally a skill issue.
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@xltechno said:
People who just choose to die easy without devising a countermeasure or relearning the timing of the loop are going to be cheap on Huntless and have no desire to improve, even if Huntless's buffs are reduced.
Interesting wording, people said basically the exact same thing about MfT.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653454#Comment_3653454
Light-Footed has two restrictions because of how powerful its effect is. Silent running is very strong, people underrate how important audio tracking is for killers.
Killers see Chemical Trap so that you can actually play around it. There are a fair number of loops where the killer refusing to break the pallet makes the loop stronger, and Chemical Trap puts them in a lose/lose scenario at those loops. Doesn't have to be a god loop, just a safe one.
Troubleshooter is a good perk because it shows you the killer's aura and lets you avoid running the killer to your teammates in chase.
Champion of Light is a strong perk, yeah. I actually have seen people running it, but that's anecdotal and irrelevant- there's a big difference between "nobody runs this perk" and "this perk is bad".
People gotta stop comparing Illumination to Deja Vu, they have different niches. The boon is a nice support boon for boon builds/Overzealous, and it's nice to see the whole gen spread without downsides like Visionary. Easily the weakest, but still nice. As for Deadline, it is a little hampered by the injured requirement, but the strength is still quite high when it's active.
Whether people run then is wildly different to whether they're good, as evidenced by all the good perks people aren't running and the kinda bad ones people are running, like Windows of Opportunity.
Light footed is just trash. The only reason you'd use this is for something resembling a stealth build, and it would require 3 (!) Other perks to make useful: distortion, calm spirit, and likely dance with me with the current level of killer tracking perks available.
Even with all of those, it's a perk that is only ok in chase, then disables itself in chase, and still leaves scratch marks. And my personal favorite, your survivor still breaths heavily or grunts in pain, so if you're going for audio stealth you're still broadcasting audio in that area that you're there. And you leave scratch marks while running, which is the only time this activates. At best, this is a heavily niche perk, but absolutely not 'good'. It's borderline a killer perk, which is why I think people are trying to inflate it's usefulness.
Chemical trap has the same problems as blast mine tbh. I don't generally have an issue with the perk, but let's be real: it's a meme perk like blast mine is. Chem trap is *only* good in chase, unlike blast mine where you're likely setting it up at the last second before moving away early. You're not standing at a pallet waiting, you're on a gen.
Illumination being the worst boon perk says volumes. Especially in the meta of 'wasting time blessing is time not spent on gens'. Just bring blast mine and highlight the gen you want to point out to your team, which you can do regardless of totem rng and at any point without leaving the gen.
And here's the real problem with survivor content, especially recently, is that anything that even functions is considered too strong. The forums complain about distortion of all things, which is how far the bar has dropped for 'strong survivor perks'.
Meanwhile, people will tell you that pain res and pop are 'barely usable'. It's like the bar for killer perks being 'decent' means it wins you the game, like old Eruption, and anything else is trash. But for survivors, you can make it so their left foot is invisible for 2 seconds at the start of the match and it should be considered 'good and usable, people use this perk once for adepts'.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650221#Comment_3650221
I mean you keep touting that statement that ds only gives 6.4m and a lunge is 6m but you don't catch the survivor in 1s after being dsed just by lunging at them, maybe you are forgetting the obvious that you move 6m during a lunge but a survivor is also moving during a lunge so the actual difference in distance is much less
It's a statement of comparison, nothing more.
With the 5 second stun the survivor still was stuck in animation for 1.4 seconds, but gained 8 additional meters of distance. (So 14.4 total)
If the player can barely outrange an m1 lunge with a once per match use perk, that's not effective in any sense. And that assumes, again, that the killer doesn't have a power whatsoever.
There were videos just after the 6.1 PTB showcasing how bad DS was, and most killers could just m2 and instantly down the survivor after the stun wore off.
It's a useless perk for tunneling. And the only reason people use it currently is for exhaustion reset. The nerfs for conspicuous actions and disabling in end game were fine, the 3s stun duration nerf was not ok.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652565#Comment_3652565
I feel its a perfectly fine reason to tunnel someone. I don't tunnel as a rule, but it's a broken combo, everyone knows it, if you use it, you bring it on yourself :D
The only time the complaint holds water to my mind is if someone uses it to prevent an existing tunnel.
I feel like the Killer's handbook for survivor consists of 1 rule. Don't give the killer a reason to tunnel you 😏
I feel like the Killer's handbook for survivor consists of 1 rule. Don't give the killer a reason to tunnel you 😏
The killer rule book certainly still exists, especially since 'reasons for tunneling' is encyclopedic just by itself.
But the original 'rule book' included things like 'don't run literal infinites', 'don't permanently sabotage hooks or traps', 'don't use BNP to instantly complete generators from 0'.
All of those things have been addressed and deleted from the game. But now, the rule book has just gotten more entitled over time.
Now, it's things like 'don't play like it's comp by predropping or running to the corner' (usually while the killer tunnels like there's a cash prize), 'don't do gens until the killer builds pressure', 'don't ever use functional tiles or line or sight', 'don't hold w to counter anti loop', 'don't use any useful survivor perks above C tier'.
Which, btw, all of those current reasons (and lots, lots more) are all things people claim are reasons they tunnel.
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My hope for this is that they haven't hidden prestige in the lobby because they're reworking the lobby in some way.
There's no reason, after a 'limited test' on live servers, it should take this long to implement just the 'removal' aspect. The feature is directly available, just flip the switch and add it into the next patch already.
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A big part of the hatch changes were to prevent the whole survivor team from just using hatch to escape after completing a certain number of gens.
While I don't think the hatch mechanic is perfect in its current state (promoting slugging for the 4k), this isn't the change we need.
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Endurance perks like OTR and DH are hard countered by getting hit immediately off hook. If the killer is tunneling, they're almost always going back to hook (or just staying at exactly 12m).
DS is about as effective as politely asking the killer not to tunnel in end game chat. DS isn't anti tunnel when it also stuns the survivor for 1.4 of the 3 second duration. So a survivor gets 1.6s of head start, or 6.4m. A killer lunge attack is 6m, and that assumes their power doesn't just instantly down the survivor again.
DS is only used to reset exhaustion in its current state. Maybe if they actually buffed the stun duration back to 5s it could be anti tunnel again.
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@Gabe_Soma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649991#Comment_3649991
How and why would you nerf SWF without destroying survivors in general and only because that 5% of the total (High MMR) is 'problematic'?
'Why' is called cherry picking the data to fit what they've already decided should be the result. Everything else except one number is being ignored completely here.
'How' is absolutely going to be killer buffs. Likely 'give back old Eruption' or some crap.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649996#Comment_3649996
Many survivors give up immediately against her so it's hard to tell if she's actually too strong or if survivors still need time to adapt. There's probably a couple really minor changes they could make that would weaken her a bit and help survivors out a bit. Like removing a single charge of lock-on when disabling drones.
The correct answer here is she needs a rework. In the sense of scrapping the current kit and starting over. That solves both problems at once.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648325#Comment_3648325
SB would like to have a word with you. 😉
I mean, if we're going that route, then a lot of the most popular killers have haste, movement powers, teleports, or anti loop built into their kits that are infinite use and not once per chase.
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S tier killer (finally) gets an add on pass and ends up being still S tier in the end.
You even admit the add ons were problematic before the rework and still have a novel-length meltdown about it.
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@I_Tunnel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647961#Comment_3647961
They just increased base kick damage to 5%
To counteract that deluge of repair speed perks.
added an entire 'anti gen tap' mechanic
That's a hand-holding mechanic for Survivors. Not Killers.
The rest are literally balance changes, not pure hand-holding mechanics due to complaining.
Anti gen tap has been a killer complaint for years. Specifically because killers claim they 'can't keep up with gen speeds'. Same with increasing base kick damage.
Asking the devs for help incessantly, and then getting it, with both of these features is the very definition of hand holding.
If you think the 'anti gen tap' is somehow a survivor buff, then you are far, far too biased to continue to engage with. You can't be real.
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@I_Tunnel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647944#Comment_3647944
Surely an ad hominem is the best way to make your own point. 😂
The game is clearly Survivor-sided. I don't see a single hand-holding mechanic added for Killers. Yet every time Survivors complain; The devs add yet another basekit perk/mechanic to help Survivors or kneecap Killers.
I don't see a single hand-holding mechanic added for Killers.
Because you aren't looking hard enough (at all). They just increased base kick damage to 5% and added an entire 'anti gen tap' mechanic in the last few weeks.
Going back farther, they've also added features like changing tile weights to prevent 'tile chaining', removing pallet spawns and creating huge dead zones or flooding the pool with unsafe pallet options, added base gen damage to kicks at all, and even gave essentially 10% action speed to nearly every killer action. They even made endurance not stack for killers and reworked the hatch spawn entirely. All base kit, all free.
And that's just 'mechanics', which doesn't even come close to covering the insane number of other things that have been nerfed at killer request in the past year or two: perks, PTB features nerfed into uselessness before going live, medkits and bnp gutted, entire map overhauls... All in large part due to 'community feedback'.
The game is clearly Survivor-sided
The available metrics disagree with this. Whether it's win rates or kill rates, the data points to killer already being the stronger role.
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OTR is hard countered by not tunneling. So is any version of DS.
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@MrDrMedicman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643581#Comment_3643581
It's not about free wins. No other strategy feels impactful. Every thing but tunneling has been nerfed into the ground and can't compete against gen rushing. The problem is constant nerfs, and not just for killers. Survivors don't have anything to do but gens, because nothing else feels impactful.
The solution is not more nerfs, but wholesale buffs to everything. Give hexes a passive buff when they're broken, take it away with pintemento. Let coh self heal, make the self heal immune to all speed upgrades. Make BBQ, thantaphobia, and monstrous shrine good perks. ######### it, make all heal boosts more powerful, but mutually exclusive so they don't stack. Make anything but the current meta useful, because mechanically, tunneling should be the weakest it's ever been
Every thing but tunneling has been nerfed into the ground
You've said this 3 times now, but this is completely untrue.
Remember the medkit and circle nerfs? That was 100% because people told the devs they wanted 'hit and run' as a play style. Those nerfs were specifically a gigantic buff to hit and run.
And you can't even argue that those nerfs weren't effective for that style, because instantly people went from complaining that 'heals are too easy' to 'everyone just plays injured'.
It's that people choose not to play hit and run. They only want to tunnel, because it's easy, efficient, and harder to counter.
The solution is not more nerfs, but wholesale buffs to everything.
No.
We already know this doesn't work. Each and every but is only ever used to tunnel and camp more effectively.
We see it in real time with the in game events, including right now: you can give every killer free, base kit stealth while still allowing their tracking powers, and people are just using that to camp and tunnel harder.
The. Carrot. Does. Not. Work. To deter tunneling, the only way to address it is the stick at this point.
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Are people so opposed to running any information perks whatsoever that we're literally asking/expecting people to bring a big neon sign that says 'i'm over here'?
What's next? You should only use the sprint key to leave scratch marks so the killer can find you, but you should only walk during chases. It's for ImMeRsSiOn.
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@saym said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647448#Comment_3647448
It seems that you and I have different interpretations of casual mode and ranked mode.
I think the mode we're playing now is casual mode. This is because MMR is not functioning at all in the current mode. I want a match where the MMR is visible, the MMR is more detailed, and a ranking is given. That's what I think of ranked mode, and I'm looking forward to the addition of this mode.
Making MMR visible in a game where one team has a single player will only cause meta gaming harder. People will figure it exactly how to throw games to lower their MMR, again with the intent of getting easier games.
We've already had exactly this with the Grades system before. It wasn't a matchmaking number, but that doesn't matter, it was a system that did exactly what you're asking for:
A visible grade for every player that attempted to capture skill level. It doesn't matter that it wasn't a number like '750', people could see it.
You know what happened? A mass wave of players 'throwing games' and 'deranking'. It was a huge issue several years ago, and a main reason the grades system was retired.
We've already tried this system and it failed miserably. That's partly why the current system hides MMR from players, exactly to reduce the opportunity to manipulate the system for easy wins.
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Regardless of queue times, there's no reason to add a 'casual' mode.
Just look at any event BHVR has ever done, or at least the two most recent examples.
Survivors start throwing snowballs instead of doing gens, the killer tunnels like crazy. Lights out is a tunneling simulator, not a 'fun jump scare' event.
So, if you add a game mode that's 'casual', what exactly do you think is going to happen when most killers generally only care about winning?
The answer is all these killers will just play casual mode and sweat like crazy in the hopes of easy wins. If you give killers the choice between 'challenge' and 'your opponent isn't going to try as hard', we already know most players take the easy option. And ironically, it'll just inflate their 'casual mmr' and they'll get harder games with better survivors, and we'll be right back to where we are now with 'mmr is broken' but with two modes.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646063#Comment_3646063
They were never infinite. Game ends at 59:59 on the clock. The 3-gen solution was meant to prevent games from dragging out beyond the average match time bhvr intends (15:xx IIRC?)
3 gens are and should be a strong opportunity for the killer to build pressure because of a smaller play area. It's up to the killer to make good use of that opportunity.
It's not intended that a 3 gen should be a fully guaranteed win condition for the killer, which is what was causing killers to decide to do this in the lobby.
Arguing that the game ends after an hour is completely irrelevant, since the game currently ends with a *killer win* after the timer runs out.
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@Seraphor said:
I would scale repair speeds with remaining survivors / remaining gens.
For each gen that gets repaired, global repair speeds are reduced by 5%.
For each survivor sacrificed, global repair speeds are increased by 10%.
Exact values of course subject to balance calculations, but the gist of it means if 2 survivors are sacrificed gens fly by [20%] faster, but if 4 gens are repaired before anyone is sacrificed then the last one takes [20%] longer.
This would incentivise killers to keep survivors in the trial longer (sort of like a basekit Thanatophobia) while making gens slower as the game goes on, curbing the benefits of early-game genrushing. If survivors are sacrificed then any remaining survivors have more incentive to attempt repairs instead of giving up, and if 3 gens pop in the first chase the killer knows the remaining gens will be tougher. (The latter could have posed issues for 3 gens, but we have a solution to that now)
It could be displayed on the HUD as some kind of 'Entities Favour' gauge, aiding/penalising the killer for succeeding/failing to inflict enough pain and suffering. The lore/mechanism gor this already exists in the entities judgement in the postgame screen for the killer, this would just bring it into live play.
I also think Toolboxes should get the Medkit treatment, mostly standardising their benefits to repairs (like +10/15/20/25% repair speeds with a fixed amount of charges by toolbox rarity instead of the +50/100% with double the charges we currently have) while keeping their sabotage effects different.
The major problem with this idea is that gen speeds, or even full blown action speeds would have to be ludicrously high to compensate. Like 100% is probably not enough.
Because the problem isn't speed, it's action economy. In a 'normal' game, once the killer builds pressure you'll have one survivor in chase, one on hook, one going for rescue, and one on gens.
Tunneling one person out deletes one of these simultaneous actions, and since 'chase', 'unhook', and 'rescue' are mandatory, that means gen progress goes to nearly zero with just one survivor out. This is why the game is basically always a guaranteed win for the killer if there's more than one gen left when someone dies.
Adding any amount of gen speed (or action speed) doesn't change the fact that gens aren't being done at all once the first survivor dies. Cool, everyone can not have time to do gens barely faster.
If you try to throw a pitiful 5 or 10% repair speed at the problem, it will always still be the most effective play for killers to tunnel someone out. You could give remaining survivors even 33% speed, and it won't come close, because there's one less person to perform actions for the team, and gens become the bottom priority as soon as survivors have to choose 3 out of 4 actions that they can do at once.
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#1, the old BBQ BP bonus should be base kit. It won't do much, but it also shouldn't be controversial either. (Same with WGLF). If BHVR doesn't want those bonuses tied to perks, that's fine, but let players keep the bonuses as a tiny incentive.
The simplest answer is to make more perks disable when a survivor is killed (like they did for ruin). Incentives to not tunnel simply do not work, and any changes are always used to tunnel more effectively.
You want to run quad slowdown? Ok. But if you tunnel one player out you effectively have no perks for the rest of the game.
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She needs a complete, top to bottom rework.
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Well, since gen rushing is literally the only counter play to tunneling, you're asking for tunneling and gen rushing to be nerfed together.
The lights out event going on right now is 100% empirical proof that even if the devs deleted gen rushing, the killer can guarantee win the game by just camping and tunneling every game. Gen rushing doesn't exist in that mode, there's no items or perks, and literally zero posts that it's a problem in that mode.
You know what there are dozens of posts about? Tunneling in lights out is out of control.
'Gen rush' is the only way to combat tunneling in the entire game, and deleting it entirely makes tunneling an auto win condition. It also shows that 'gen rush' is the only thing keeping tunneling in check right now.
And I say 'gen rushing' in quotes because shorter chases, and zero slowdown, is all it takes to delete 'gen rushing' entirely. It's not a perk or item issue, it's a problem that killers will do everything to win. And it's braindead simple to use overpowered perks (Eruption, grim) and easy 'strategies' like camping and tunneling to artificially inflate their MMR to the point they're over their heads in both tracking in chase skill.
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@Crowman said:
I'm not sure what you really expect.
Killers can't bring tracking or gen defense perks. Killers can't see scratch marks and their vision is heavily restricted. Sound becomes more important so injured survivors become more noticeable targets. There's still no benefit to spreading out hooks equally.
There's no reason to wander around trying to find other survivors.
Gen rushing had been deleted with this mode.
All we hear on the forums is that killers 'have to tunnel' for various (bs) reasons. Especially that they are 'forced' to do so.
This event is the opportunity for killers in general to show that they genuinely, truly are looking to have 'fun' gameplay being the 'power role' and 'horror element' of the game. Killers have all of their tracking powers available to them, chases are crazy short with no perks available, gens are not getting 'rushed', and killers are given literally *free stealth* to boot.
And they're CHOOSING to use that power to camp and tunnel.
Every single reason people give on these forms for 'having to camp and tunnel' is crap. 100% demonstrated by this event. The vast majority of killers aren't playing for fun, they just want to win, no matter what happens with game balance.
And this mode completely confirms that no matter what the devs do balance wise, there's no incentive or buff that will ever reduce tunneling. Any killer buffs, changes, or nerfs to survivors will always be used to camp and tunnel harder.
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@Adaez said:
Both camping,tunneling genrushing are bad for the game, killers camp and tunnel because of genrush and because they are forced to stack gen regression, before saying that killers camp and tunnel you should also ask yourself why, it's the only way they can get enough pressure to match survivors genrush that really need a second objective.
Killers don't camp and tunnel because of gen rushing tho. We already know this because of the gen kick meta and 3 gen meta, where killers could choose to hold games hostage for 30 minutes to an hour. The amount of camping and tunneling only went up during that window, so it's certainly not 'gen speeds' causing it.
Coincidentally, you know what the *only* counter to those strategies are? Doing gens as fast as possible so you can break the 3 gen immediately.
So we already have demonstrable proof for over a year that these 'strategies' cause gen rushing, not the other way around.
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@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641882#Comment_3641882
nicely written,
but I don’t understand what’s with people’s sudden insistence on thinking killer perks can only have their rewards granted after completing certain tasks or requirements.
Looking side by side with a survivor perk like sprint burst, UW works in a similar fashion of regranting reward that then lead to a cooldown, sprint burst actually don’t even require doing something time consuming like opening a locker but you get the point.
It's not really sudden, but it's a by product of the gen kick meta that still haunts people.
Things like blast mine, endurance, or even exhaustion perks have built in requirements that keep them in check. Exhaustion, by it's very design, means you can take only benefit from one use of one exhaustion perk in a given chase. Same thing with endurance perks. Things like blast mine or repressed alliance require you to put in the effort ahead of time to even activate the perk.
One of the big problems in the gen kick meta especially was that the oppressive gen control perks had none of that (Eruption, call of brine, overcharge, nowhere to hide specifically). They all stacked, there were no restrictions, tokens, or maximum uses. They worked every time, even if the killer did nothing but kick gens all game and never injured a survivor once.
And a cooldown does nothing if it's only as long as the perk is active. Cooldowns can work, but they have to actually prevent the perk from being used constantly. Which usually means they're longer cooldowns, like oppression, or the cooldown timer pauses like with exhaustion while running.
But really, the kicker is that we heard for two years that circle of healing was 'free and infinite' and that was 'a gigantic problem'. And if 'opening a locker' is the bar for 'time consuming' (3s) then finding a totem, blessing (14-28s), and healing (21s) was insanely time consuming. There's clearly a pretty big double standard here.
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All of the counter play is in the lobby.
Don't like to be found? Guess it's your fault you didn't bring calm spirit and distortion.
Don't like being tunneled? You should've brought OTR and DS.
Don't like being slugged? Should've brought Unbreakable.
Don't like camping? Should bring Reassurance.
Don't like to escape or anything that resembles fun gameplay? Run any four of those every game.
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So let me see if I get this straight.
You brought a build 100% centered around damaging/kicking gens, and specifically the two perks that, by design, consume multiple 'regression event' charges per use.
You then used up all of your regression event charges because of your perk choices.
You won the game.
You're looking for buffs so you can win easier next time?
Maybe, just maybe, there's some room to change your build here. It's not gen kick meta anymore.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641660#Comment_3641660
But it is useful to have those bonuses tied to perks.
A killer using BBQ = One less gen regression / blocking perk.
Maybe, but it's been BHVR's stance to systematically remove those BP bonuses tied to perks.
Since I can't change their minds on that, I'd rather have the bonus base kit than literally not at all. Especially for BBQ.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640501#Comment_3640501
Tunneling has only increased since they removed the bonus BP from BBQ, nerfed DS and made MMR a thing
Three horrible changes, three things in need of reversions.
Giving BP its bloodpoint gains back and reverting DS back to 5 seconds would help a lot. Perhaps it won't change the playstyle of every single player out there, but it would put an end to the sheer wave of tunneling we're currently seeing.
And MMR just needs to go, period. It has always caused far more harm than good.
I don't disagree with BHVR's stance of removing BP bonuses from perks. But the WGLF and BBQ bonuses should have always just been made base kit and not tied to the perk(s) since that nerf.
I also think this is one of the few 'base kit' mechanics they really should add and doing so really shouldn't be controversial in any way.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640986#Comment_3640986
5s in a straight line vs 3s in a straight line, at 0.6m/s speed differential thats 20s vs 33s of time just for using the perk, if 20s isn't enough then put in the effort to loop
Everything about this is wrong.
DS stuns the killer for 3 seconds, and the first roughly 1.4 seconds of that the survivor doesn't have control of their character because there's a 'jump off the shoulder' animation.
So, not counting latency, the survivor gains about 1.6 seconds, or 6.4m of distance here. That's a single m2 from a huge number of killers, and since a lunge attack is 6m, the survivor gains... Less than a second of chase.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3641489#Comment_3641489
But these are good buffs. Killer needed some of these buffs in order to make gameplay more healthy. Gen tapping in my opinion was not healthy gameplay at all.
They could've added anti gen tapping at 2.5% and left dry kick at 2.5% as well. Or even completely separated them so taking was 2.5% and the kick was 5%. But they didn't.
Gen tapping, by definition, is mid chase. So even if it took ~2 seconds to stop regression, that would've countered it just fine. The decision to require 4.5 seconds seems completely arbitrary here.
You seem to be arguing for the initial nerf, but aren't addressing the 'compensation buff' of 2.5% -> 5% here.
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Ending the game when only bots are left should've been implemented when they added bots. Not having this feature is a huge oversight.
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Unfortunately, OTR is the only one of these worth running. And equally unfortunately, it's hard countered by the killer hitting you immediately off hook. Dead Hard has the exact same deep wounds problem, and is also subject to latency issues.
DS isn't an anti tunnel perk anymore, since you gain essentially no distance with the stun duration at 3 seconds. The animation to drop off the shoulder doesn't give the survivor control again for about 1.4 seconds of that, and a 1.6 second head start (6.4m total) is laughable.
And laughing is what killers do with it now. The 5 second duration used to make killers stop and consider their options (usually leaving someone slugged, or staring at a locker deciding if eating the stun was worth it). 3 second stun has been completely ineffective, and you can tell because no one even thinks or cares if this perk is in play now.
The perk is only used for resetting exhaustion now, and isn't in any way a tunneling deterrent.
So when 2 of your 3 'anti tunnel' perks are hard countered by being back at hook for the unhooked, and the third is countered by M2 or even a lunge attack, it's hard to justify wasting a perk slot or even half your build. You're better off stacking chase perks and bring a toolbox, and just hope you aren't unlucky enough to be hooked first.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640401#Comment_3640401
does it matter whether it is called anti camp or tunnel? bt bodyblocks don't happen only in camping scenarios, the survivor being chased can simply decide to run to hook or just farm the hooked survivor.
also i said bt and the actual anti tunnel perks, which definitely don't last only 10 seconds. do you have a few things to say about those?
I already did.
First of all, your 'anti tunnel perks' that fall into this category is exactly and only one perk, and it's OTR.
Second of all, if you want to avoid anti tunnel perks (OTR) used for body blocking, try pressuring the rest of the map. Since you specifically called it out in your op, BT is absolutely hard countered by not going immediately back to hook the instant you get the notification. So is OTR. Interesting that that's entirely within the killer's ability to avoid.
This is why I said specifically in my first post, if you're getting hit with borrowed time in this case, you really should be asking yourself what the other survivors are doing (it's gens). In that case, you're completely ignoring two people on gens to make sure you are back at hook instantly (within 10 seconds) and complaining that you didn't count to ten first. That's 100% on you.
And if all the gens are done, guess what, OTR is disabled! So in that case you're actually struggling with counting to ten. Literally.
If people actually understood map pressure, there would be far, far less (nearly zero) instances of active body blocking.
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BT is not, was not, and has never been 'anti-tunnel', it's strictly an anti camping perk and mechanic.
It's only purpose is to prevent killers from being rewarded by camping the hook with a literally free down the instant someone is unhooked. That's why it only lasts a short time and you can literally bypass it by counting to ten. That's not even remotely a tunneling deterrent.
The counter to BT has always been 'don't be at the hook and actually apply map pressure'. So basically, don't camp.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640118#Comment_3640118
That was the problem with Incapacitated on a perk, and that's exactly why Grim Embrace is nothing like old Eruption.
You are not forced to stare at a blocked gen for 12 seconds, you are just forced not to repair a gen for 12 seconds. No other action is prevented.
Especially the first time this occurs, so first hook of the game, what are you imagining survivors doing here?
There's no one injured, so you don't have to heal. Only one person needs to go for the rescue.
So you think two survivors are going to go look for a chest or totem and cleanse it in 12 seconds? That's not even close to realistic.
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@MalekithHatesSnow said:
I dont get it I thought we wanted less tunneling now we're calling for nerfs for a perk that doesn't do anything if you tunnel?
There's no disincentive to tunnel here. It's not like the perk disables once a survivor dies or anything.
So you can use GE with things like pain res, get the slowdown to tunnel out one person, then still get full value out of those perks to solidify your 3v1 win.
Which is what's happening.
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Is it as bad as old Eruption? No, incapacitation was far too powerful for a perk with no restrictions.
But saying it's 'nothing' like Eruption is incorrect as well. It has the same problem as incapacitation did, where survivors are forced to be effectively afk.
Let's look at it this way:
Did you look at the gen for at least 12 seconds? If you did, do you call that 'gameplay'? (The answer is no, staring at a blocked gen for at least 12 seconds isn't gameplay).
It's a ######### mechanic, which is why GE was initially so restricted in it's implementation. Something about that got lost or forgotten when they buffed it.
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You can open the doors yourself.