AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726731#Comment_3726731
This is probably why the devs are going for a 60% kill rate, because the hook suicides inflate the kill rates
I think you are mistaking the cause for the effect here. Don't you think it's because the devs for some reason decided that "balance" is 60% kill rate instead of 50%, soloQ survivors sometimes can't take this mathematically killer-sided balance and therefore go next more often?
It doesn't help that anything even remotely interesting or fun has been nerfed over the past couple years as well.
I personally don't think a 60% kill rate would be bad on its own if the rest of the gameplay was also fun and engaging. But the game has been shifting toward competitive slog, and isn't really chase oriented anymore. So survivors are just losing more, and it isn't even a fun match in the process. Your only hope is to do gens fast enough before someone gets tunneled out.
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@hatchetChugger said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725929#Comment_3725929
Thats the thing though. Thana was fine before 6.1.0, and was a slowdown that didn't get value out of holding 3 gens or camping, but required the killer to chase and spread injuries to actually get value. I could understand if 20% (pre 6.1 thana) would be too much with the 90 second generators. But all that would need to be done is a simple percent decrease, not gutting the perk into what it is now
Thana wasn't 'fine' before 6.1 either, it was a perk that gave nearly full value even after tunneling one player out.
The difference between the 22% and 20% is what everyone focused on, but the issue is that, even at 5% per injury, having a 15% slowdown with 3 remaining survivors is way, way too much for free.
The biggest problem after 6.1 was that the perk made gens take 115 seconds, and healing one person, or tunneling them out, only reduced that to about 108 seconds. So you're adding anywhere between 18 and 25 seconds, per gen, for free with literally no penalty or downside.
The % nerf was always meaningless. The real reason people stopped using the perk is because they made it incompatible with tunneling, and that alone killed it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725754#Comment_3725754
Huntress has no map presence. While a high skilled huntress is deadly in the chase. Her ability to apply spread pressure on the map is very limited in isolation. So of course, I disagree that huntress can win with no slowdown or information perks off pure skill alone.
Spread out to do gens and pre-running can beat a chasing huntress(She is very slow 4.4 m/s killer with a 40 meter lullaby).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725767#Comment_3725767
it is kinda long explanation.
The way huntress build map presence on the map is by hook camping and in particular, slug camping. The objective of huntress is to down two survivors, hook 1 survivor than pick up survivor 2 and then drop survivor 2 near hook. Some huntress even use Agitation as @edgarpoop would explain in comp.
When two survivor on the floor, you can't pick up slugged survivor because huntress holding hatchet can just knock slugged survivor immediately back on the floor and saving a hooked survivor at best case scenario results in a trade. When huntress successful does this correctly, you are in spiral of unable to recover.
If this happens at early stages of the game like 5 gen, 4 gen or 3 gen, the 2 survivors are unable to finish generators before survivor dies on hook so they're forced to help the teammate on the floor and hooked survivor but it will often result in 3k/4k for huntress even against best teams.
Luckily, survivor do have perks to counter this nasty strategy. There is 3 perks in particular that counter this strategy. I'll go from least effective to most effective. The first perk is Tenacity. This perk is good because when a survivor is dropped, you can recover and crawl very quickly away from the hook. This allows teammates to safely pick up the 3rd survivor, heal up and potencial body block rescue a teammate that will likely be on death hook. The second is set of perks is called Soulguard and Unbreakable. Soulguard is a perk that any time you are picked up from the dying state, you gain endurance and unbreakable is a perk that allows you to recover a single time from dying state on your own. When you pick yourself up, a huntress holding hatchet will attempt to knock you down however Soulguard will save you and tank the hit. This can allow you escape from hook or even rescue your teammate that is dying on the hook. The 3rd final perk is Buckle up. This perk allows you to gain endurance effect any time you heal a survivor from dying state. When the huntress shoots a hatchet to knock you down from your recovery, you can tank a hit and hopefully escape. Buckle up will be changing next patch to not be able to tank a hit, so it will diminish in effectiveness at saving the survivor in certain situations if huntress shoots the hatchet before your sprint burst takes off.
Nerfing huntress camping would be highly detrimental for huntress. It is like nerfing leatherfaces ability to hit endurance and instant down or making trickster unable to use main event near the hook. It is part of their identity and it is important for their viability vs extreme gen-rush/second chance teams.
Her ability to apply spread pressure on the map is very limited in isolation. So of course, I disagree that huntress can win with no slowdown or information perks off pure skill alone.
This shows an incredible lack of creativity or wanting to look around on your part. There are several streamers who main huntress and play this way with astounding success.
Also I never said no slowdown or information, you seem to have misread. For a very good huntress, 4 info perks is a god tier build that keeps the chase rolling the entire match. The amount of pressure, without camping or even tunneling, is insane.
Are you going to set a speed record on lery's? No. But great huntress players can also cross map down survivors on a ton of maps based on a simple aura read.
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Given that when 6.1.0 went live this perk was in literally every single game for the two weeks until it was nerfed, and that was during the CoH meta where healing and medkits were still strong enough to be a viable counter...
This perk can stay dead in the current game climate.
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I still occasionally let go at the very start of the match to check for ruin, from when that was in just about every single game. It's been almost two years now.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725699#Comment_3725699
weakening huntress ability to camp hook is taking away her identity. her win condition.
Yikes.
For one of the few killers that has aim as part of skill expression, standing still at 12m with a hatchet knocked at a stationary target is neither her identity, nor is it a win condition.
This is literally a killer that can use no slowdown and all information perks to dominate the match, when played well/correctly.
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/415028/would-a-generator-rework-be-a-good-idea
the chase is the heart of the game right
In current state of the game with small maps, weak tiles and gens next to each other?
Absolutely not
I don't disagree that they're getting away from this, but the game was more fun when chase was the focus.
The current game is consistently sacrificing anything even remotely interesting for competitive gameplay.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724153#Comment_3724153
For one, the group needs to wait to start a match with no impact to that match.
The other the match is ruined but must be played out.
But there is an impact on the match where the lobby was dodged. The back fill player is likely to be completely mismatched in skill to what the lobby was originally matched for.
So you get a 12k hour nurse stomping a squad of solos, or the other extreme of a new killer going up against 6k hour survivors.
The only difference here is that dropping out of the match affects the game for 4 players, or may not have an effect at all if the match is already lost. Lobby dodging affects the match for 5 other players, and can create the frustrating 'matchmaking is awful' scenarios that literally no one enjoys.
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This is kinda why I think the forums are horribly biased, because I can't even state an opinion without being attacked for things I never said.
Since you only want to talk about the survivor side, then sure: I have a consistent opinion about that too.
There's nuance to giving up on hook, exactly like dropping from lobby. Sure, some people drop for bs reasons. Maybe they are getting burned out, got downed in 10 seconds, or maybe they didn't get their perfect map. Those things happen.
But there also times where, again, people have something come up IRL, or they're letting go to give the last survivor a chance at hatch. Maybe they're one of the players that has an actual visceral reaction to plague's power and hearing vomiting, or get motion sickness from clown's bottles (i.e. an actual accessibility reason).
So here's the thing: I don't know of a way the game can discern between these options. And so far, no one has said anything other than 'remove it completely' or 'give a DC penalty'. You've certainly given no answers yourself, and I don't know of any options that would only affect the bs reasons and not punish legit reasons as well. Because both of those options certainly impact legit reasons to drop.
That's not the case for lobby dodging. Removing prestige from the lobby hurts literally no one, unless you're specifically lobby dodging and are part of the problem. It doesn't hurt legit reasons to drop. Ever. And they tested it, but haven't done anything about it.
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@FriendlyKiller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724296#Comment_3724296
There are legitimate reasons to leave a lobby. If you're trying out an unfamiliar killer or build and 4 ttv's queue up it's perfectly reasonable to not want to get rolled in front of hundreds of people. There's also the players whose name or profile is a clear indication they are cheating.
On the other hand if you're playing survivor with the killer at 4 hooks and 3 gens left, and Nea immediately offs herself on hook because she got outplayed at shack, that's it the games over.
So I don't think you can really equate the two. One game hadn't even started and the other was totally winnable.
There are legitimate reasons to leave a lobby.
I literally say exactly this in my post. I'm not sure you read everything I said, and it seems you stopped reading very early on.
ETA: Not only did I say this in the post, the only partial solution I discussed specifically does nothing in situations that are legit reasons to leave a lobby.
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The volume on certain things like this makes more sense when you understand that the forums in general have an incredibly high number of killer players compared to the total game population.
Not only that, but people who tend to use the phrase 'power role' give the vibe of 'we're done when I say we're done', and are extremely offended that survivors didn't ask permission to leave the trial. For some people, it's just a power trip, not a game, unfortunately.
To the actual topic: I feel like lobby dodging has only one purpose and that's shopping for an 'easy' game. There are legit reasons to drop a lobby, don't get me wrong: things happen IRL, so it's not like dropping from the lobby ever, for any reason, is a heinous crime.
But dropping for the purpose of manipulating the game difficulty is what we're talking about here, and that's ruining the game experience of 5 other players in a match you are dodging at that point. I don't necessarily think a wait/DC timer is necessary, personally, but the literal least effort solution that hurts nothing at all is hiding prestige in the lobby.
The fact that they trialled this and it's been months (almost a year?) and it's still up in the air, tells me that they either don't care to do literally anything about it, or perhaps there's someone at BHVR who thrives on lobby dodging and has some direct influence over the decision.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723016#Comment_3723016
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3722988#Comment_3722988
Proxy patrolling isn't camping.
And if they return to hook and chase you, that's tunneling.
Otherwise, standing there near the hook has dramatically died down since the anti-facecamp. I play enough survivor to know this.
It's called proxy camping.
Because you're near the hook waiting. Attempting to change the sematics doesn't do anything but make it seem disingenuous.
The whole reason I bring up the 'anti FACE camping' wording is because that is specifically used to claim that the devs are ok with proxy camping. And it happens every single time someone ever refers to 'camping' in general since that patch.
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@ChaosWam said:
Well camping was fixed already, so there's one down.
Can we also address gen speed optimization from being so insanely fast, survivor BM and killer power disparity while we're asking for things like this?
Since this comes up every. Single. Time. this mechanic is discussed in any way, people need to take their own pill here:
Camping isn't fixed. People are very clear that it's anti FACE camping.
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@Caiman said:
Buffing sabo doesn't slow down gens. It buys survivors more time to do gens by negating killer's progress.
This is basically the problem with most of the things the devs have nerfed.
Killer whine about survivors interacting with the killer, but the only alternative is that survivor on a gen instead.
And I don't think you can actually argue that the 5 seconds it takes to go to another hook is somehow worse than having that survivor on a gen the entire chase waiting for a sabo. Because dropping a survivor and slugging to immediately chase the saboteur is ideal amounts of pressure for the killer.
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@VASRIO said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3721419#Comment_3721419
So what's a good solution in your eyes? Because this is absolutely ruining the entire experience of the game, and cannot be just ignored. There are alternative solutions:
- Remaining survivors get a boost if their teammate gives up in the first hook (so they can have a chance to do something at least).
- Survivors get the option to give up without DC'ing but a separate give up option, and that survivor is immediately replaced by a bot. That way, the person who wants to give up will be taken out of the game immediately, but their teammates don't have to suffer because of it.
- Add a report for survivors who give up, so they get placed in lobbies with other losers who give up, so losers will play with their likes and don't ruin the experience for other players.
But pretending this ain't an issue and doesn't require addressing is ludacris. Nobody wants to load 5 mins to get into a match, and be forced to play 15 minutes of a game that was already over in the first minute.
"But muh it's not that deep, just play it out, you don't have to win every game." Yeah… I'll play it out once. Twice. But it's every other goddamn game. At this point I'm already preparing for a 3v1 loss before the game even loads. It's not about IF someone will give up, but WHO will give up. For Christ' sake…
You're focusing on a band aid fix that targets a symptom and not the core problem. That's why this idea won't work, among other reasons.
Why are people DCing? From my perspective, the game has had the fun drained out of it steadily for the past couple years almost every patch. Literally any time survivors are getting anything other than 'stare at gens forever' as gameplay it gets complained about and nerfed or just plain deleted.
Maybe it's because tunneling is still far too strong, and getting found first means you just don't get to play that match. Here's your 5k bp, go Wait in queue for ten more minutes and maybe someone else will get tunneled next. The only nerf to tunneling in two years was the DS change to 5s, and that was immediately nerfed again for literally no reason.
How about making the core gameplay actually fun, and people will want to play? Instead of making the gameplay a coin toss between tunneling and camping or gen repair jockey. People are burning out and just don't realize it yet.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3721111#Comment_3721111
Or do you think it is more about knowing which tiles already got used?
It's this, combined with map RNG.
Imagine if killers had to equip perks to see the auras of gens or hooks. I can pretty much guarantee that would be an insanely popular perk or two.
WoO is one of the only information perks for survivors that helps to mitigate map RNG as a factor. Of course it's going to be popular.
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@danielmaster87 said:
It needs to be 200% regression at minimum, and no deactivation on a survivor death. I don't think most people understand that 200% regression is half the speed of survivor progression (400%). They just see a big number and go, "Ah! Too strong!" 🤷♀️
You do realize that gens don't progress at all, in any way, unless a survivor is actively working on it?
In fact, there's no perk, ability, item, add-on, or mechanic that adds gen progress without a survivor actively touching a gen.
Ruin is literally 'set and forget' and continues to regress automatically without any further attention from the killer. You don't even have to kick the gen.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3720882#Comment_3720882
They are talking about the vault speed increase
I mean, the vault speed stacking is very clearly a bug. They specifically made a patch to combat this because stacking things like superior anatomy, bamboozle, and some add-ons for killers like Myers and wraith was causing vault speeds to literally break animations as well as gameplay.
Iirc, there were combinations that had killers vaulting in under .4 seconds, so faster than survivor fast vaults, and the animations would completely break.
Having it not stack with that is consistent with that patch, where they very clearly stated it was a bug and why.
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@ABAEX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3720826#Comment_3720826
endurance can be Conspicuous Actions disable.
but the way trigger Protection Hit is the Endurance unhook survivor get hit.
so it only dis able DS.
You said it right here:
@ABAEX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3717645#Comment_3717645
Let [protection hit] event be a Conspicuous Actions only effect Endurance and DS.
The Endurance is normally be used when get hit, give survivor deep wound then Endurance be removed.
The stand survivor is More threatening than downed survivor to the killer.
if killer want attack unhook survivor trigger [protection hit] event to deactivate DS, killer will face 2 moveable treat.
Let [protection hit] event be a Conspicuous Actions only effect Endurance and DS.
So you want a free down for being back at hook. Quit the bs.
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Thana got nerfed nearly immediately because the value was too easy for killers to get and was too hard to counter for survivors. Even with one survivor tunneled out of the game completely, thana still gave nearly full value, and that was with circle of healing in the meta.
Thana was in every single game for those two weeks before the nerf. It does not need a buff.
It currently rewards killers for spreading pressure, and had already been buffed by several healing nerfs, making maps smaller and pallets weaker.
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It would be fine if it only allowed the survivor with the CoH perk to self care in any CoH boon. That solves the 'only one survivor has to have it problem' so if the team wants to have everyone self heal, everyone has to run the perk.
Circle is just a dead perk and a waste of time to set up, especially since it saves 8 seconds off of an altruistic heal. So for 2 survivors, if it takes more than 4 seconds to run to the boon, you lose time over just healing where you meet up. And that doesn't count the hunting and setup/bless time.
Circle only had value because of the self care aspect, which is pretty clear from the usage rate after the nerf.
@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3720783#Comment_3720783
literally this, like, was 22 seconds self-heal inside boon to OP?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LJAHD0QDQMYZ/image.png
Given that you have to find totem - takes time, bless it - takes time and killers could insta-snuff it?
And to heal you also have to bless another totem or go to specific spot on the map - if killer didn't snuff it out.
Given that you have to find totem - takes time, bless it - takes time and killers could insta-snuff it?
While I agree with you, I think I've seen maybe two killer players ever actually acknowledge that looking for the totem and blessing it take any time at all. Meanwhile, the entire time circle was meta, you'd think it was a 90 second progress bar to snuff it the way people complained about 'valuable time to snuff'.
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@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
So what happens with basement hooks or areas where is extremely narrow or cut off?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3720696#Comment_3720696
Unfortunately I feel like you're arguing with a brick wall here, at best.
You've already pointed out that the most common scenario for this would be hitting the survivor immediately off hook, where the unhooker is 'nearby', which would count as a protection hit.
Since the survivor's only protection against camping is endurance, and the only protection against tunneling is endurance or DS, the OP is just asking to turn off camping and tunneling protections in that scenario.
Which means, if the killer wants to tunnel someone off hook, the obviously optimal play here is proxy camp, hit the unhooker on their way in, then hit the hooked survivor as their get touch the ground, which instantly downs them.
This is just an argument to go back to before base kit BT was implemented, and I trust that the devs completely understand the consequence of this. Them calling this 'good for survivors' is just gaslighting.
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A) it won't matter. The best slowdown is getting someone out of the game anyway, so it will likely not affect the outcome of the match.
B) Given that they added this exact mechanic to Ruin, and then later removed it completely, tells me the devs have no interest in doing this across the board.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3718301#Comment_3718301
I literally said in the beginning it would deactivate after x amount of time… Glad you actually took the time to read that.
" Ideas that were mentioned in that context were for example all gens are blocked until a. You enter chase with a survivor b. Someone loses a health state or c. X amount of time passes."
All those conditions apply simultaniously… So it deactivates if a, b or c is (+).Your original does say a, b, or c. The comment I responded to only includes a or b.
At no point does 'or' mean 'and'.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3717825#Comment_3717825
How is it OP if it turns off as soon as you enter chase or lose a health state?
Given that it took months, several nerfs, a killer rework, and a new base kit mechanic to get people to stop 3 genning, this is the most abusable ######### I've ever heard of.
It would take about 20 seconds for the meta to become going afk for an hour to auto-win the match while all the gens are permanently blocked.
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I've said this for about a year and a half now, go ahead and make ruin 500%.
It requires the killer to actually apply map pressure or it does nothing, so for a depressingly large number of people the perk would still give zero value.
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One of the biggest complaints in this game is maps and map rng. If course a perk that is designed to give information about that is going to be popular.
WoO isn't broken or overpowered.
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@albertoplus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715908#Comment_3715908
Counterargument for the exhaustion part:
Pop and Pain res are the two most gen regresion perks used, usually being both used at the same time. Fun fact: pain res not only makes pop worse as you cannot kick the same gen when it is regressing, but even if it stops regressing and you kick it, it will do far less regresion as Pop is % of actual regresion, not total. When it is said that "both are not good together" because of this, the answer usually is "imagine how damn good they are then".
Same thing about exhaustion. Imagine how damn good perks like Adrenaline are, that they are even used with other Exhaustion perks.
Anti synergy isn't the same as 'completely disabled'. That's how exhaustion works.
You don't even have to be exhausted by your own perk, just have the exhausted status.
Pop and pain res arguably can be better on separate gens, simply because they take a chunk of 'current' progress now.
If you want to go with anti synergy perks, you'd be talking about something like a no mither/self care combo. Although, again this combo means one perk cannot ever be used at all, not 'I can use both, I just have to walk ten feet to do so'.
And while adrenaline might be the only exception to this, it was recently heavily nerfed, and the speed boost is generally not the reason people ran it, it's for the health state.
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@Chaogod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715510#Comment_3715510
Or you know. They could nerf gen rushing. They are not addressing the issue at its core.
They did nerf gen rush. The gen tap nerf, reworked BNP, prove nerf are already in play. Not to mention that killers base kick got buffed as well, which no one asked for.
This is just the 'what have you done for me recently' problem. Not everything change requires a compensation buff. That mentality is the pinnacle of entitlement.
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@Nazzzak said:
Every time killers get changes I see people claiming that some sort of unpleasant behaviour will now increase. I never see it.
On the other hand, someone 'predicting' that people will complain about slugging is like saying 'it'll rain again some day'.
Like, sure it'll probably be complained about because it sucks, but not because anything like this changed.
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@BlackRose89 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3716393#Comment_3716393
Yeah but just wait till they make more of these and they stack. I have no doubt in my mind they will make one of these OP and it will be meta.
If their first swing at this concept is for the only objective that actually matters to survivors, and the perk is so undertuned that it's a 5th killer perk slot…
I can't even imagine what they could add that would even be usable. Even 60 seconds of time investment is an insane amount of time unless the payoff is better than an entire gen, after accounting for travel time and automatically losing half a chase every time. And the gen invocation doesn't break even on that point.
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It doesn't 'require you to be losing the game' in any sense. You could have 2 survivors alive with 5 gens remaining and it will still do the exact same thing.
It's literally free value for simply equipping the perk. Now it'll be very slightly less value.
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@ZamasuManzon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715775#Comment_3715775
What about survs stacking 2nd chance perks?
Endurance doesn't stack.
Exhaustion prevents the use of other perks entirely.
Neither of these mechanics have a similar analogue for killer perks. It's even been proposed on this forum that maybe the devs should consider that a gen already regressing can't get hit by instant chunk regression a second time (surge, pain res, for example). That would be similar to exhaustion, but I'll emphasize that such a thing isn't currently in the game.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
I think a good start would be PTB testing gen regression perks not being able to procc on gens that are actively regressing.
This is likely the best way to do it.
Although, ironically, if they even hinted at this kind of system killers would suddenly want the anti gen tap mechanic removed.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714743#Comment_3714743
The way I see it is that they planned to add a longer animation to it, which turned out to be horrible. But they balanced the Stun time of 5 seconds with the longer animation in mind. Now without the longer animation, they reduce the stun to 4 seconds to end up on the value they initially wanted to have.
This would also explain the quick nerf.
They keep whiffing with this perk.
When they announced an animation change was in the works, my 'best case scenario' was at most a half second survivor animation, which would've cut the survivor stun by roughly 1 second. If they did that, a 4 second stun for the killer would be fine. It would be just as effective as the 5s version, but overall waste less time for everyone.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712147#Comment_3712147
It was the case for quite some time already that mainly Killers complain about Survivors not being able to suicide on Hook or stuff like that. You see obvious Killer Mains posting this. You dont see that many Survivors complain about it (granted, this Forum is very killer-sided and I guess if you go on reddit or twitter, you probably see more Survivors complain about teammates suiciding because there are more Survivors).
But as Killer, it should not be relevant - in the end, they achieve their goal. And the sweatfest I encounter ingame should not really show that Killers dont want to win. And a Survivor suiciding does a lot for them to win the game.
So my assumption is that they lose points and it does not feel as good to win a 3v1 than it would be to win a 4v1.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712139#Comment_3712139
This thread is not about SoloQ. It is about Killers complaining about suiciding Survivors.
So my assumption is that they lose points and it does not feel as good to win a 3v1 than it would be to win a 4v1.
It depends on the person, and this is certainly true for some players. It can also be a shared feeling for all of the remaining players to have wasted time in queue for what amounts to a wash of a match.
However, there's also a certain subgroup of killers who are simply on a power trip. People who tend to use the phrase 'power role' give the vibe of 'we're done when I say we're done' and are mostly angry that someone decided to leave the game without asking the killer for permission first. Don't forget to call him 'sir', he likes that.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3711735#Comment_3711735
Some system like the following IMO would incentivize healthier gameplay for both sides (although I know increasing gen speeds at all would and can be seen as very annoying, but for the sake of balance and health I think it’s necessary).
- 4 survivors alive: Gen speeds are 10-15%% slower, meaning they now take 9 seconds longer for a solo gen, putting solo repair speed at 99 seconds or 103.5 seconds
- 3 survivors alive: Gen speeds are 10-15% faster, meaning a solo gen takes between 76.5 and 81 seconds (not sure if 15% would be too much tbh)
- 2 survivors alive: Gen speeds increase by 35%, meaning a solo gen takes 58.5 seconds to complete.
Killers would be more incentivized to spread pressure and (potentially) not feel as big of a need to stack gen regression. Survivors would be more incentivized to stick the game as they now have some sort of chance of getting out even in the common scenario of 3 people left 3 gens left. These numbers are a spitball and I’m sure with testing a better range can be found but repair speeds should be based off survivors left so issues like people immediately quitting upon an early down don’t feel like the match is automatically lost.
I see this idea touted occasionally, but it misses the point.
The biggest advantage of survivors has nothing to do with action speed, it's all about action economy. With 4 survivors, it means you can have 4 simultaneous actions going at once. So after the killer builds pressure, this means you have one survivor on hook, one in chase, one going for rescue, and one on gens. That's called map pressure.
The benefit of tunneling one survivor out is that it completely removes one of those 4 consecutive actions. Unfortunately for survivors, chase, hook, and rescue are mandatory actions, and if you can only choose 3 of the 4 (because someone died), you have no one on gens.
So having even a 35% increased speed does literally nothing to address the issue. You'd have to have an absolutely obscene speed boost to make up for the fact that no one is on gens once one person dies.
Removing a survivor will continue to be the best play in this scenario, so there's no reason to stop tunneling with this system. The game still becomes essentially a free win with 3 survivors and more than 1 gen remaining.
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This is actually the exact same argument killers use.
Survivors on this forum are literally told, word for word that 'you choose to play this game, you signed up for being tunneled/slugged/camped/hit on hook/humped on the ground' or even until more recently 'held hostage until the game times out at 60 minutes because 3 genning is a StRaTeGy'.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3709093#Comment_3709093
(Anyone got any idea how to make that > function work on mobile?)
"Without meta builds you get to a certain point but that's where you cap."
Is it? Because if Hens and the others can push past that cap, why can't anyone else? They're not bionically gifted, are they?
"This is the absolute maximum that survivors can realistically achieve in terms of efficiency. You do not get anywhere that level as a killer. That simply isn't how the game works."
Not really. Killers can theoretically close matches out faster than that, and sometimes do. Not to mention they can 'condemn' a match early too. If a survivor's out the game fast enough, survivors likely won't win.
"My point was that killer meta perks have too big of an impact on the match especially when they're stacked. With a full meta build you are so much stronger, that you demolish a team you otherwise couldn't do much against."
As evidenced by what, though? By what percentage does the killrate drop between meta builds and off-meta builds?
(Anyone got any idea how to make that > function work on mobile?)
I think you're referring to the quote feature to highlight a specific statement like above?
If so, there's a paragraph button on mobile in the bottom left of the text box next to 'image' you can use, select the quotation mark ", and pick quote. It'll highlight whatever you type or copy/paste.
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@Royval said:
they made it easy to help with Wesker you can carry sprays whilst still carrying your own item… just adapt.
Really? You can spray mid chase while being tunneled?
C'mon.
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Infection should have been looked at with conspicuous actions in mind before wesker even launched. The fact that it still works this way is mind boggling.
If people were screaming about MfT with a 3% increase, then using that same math Wesker's infection is also permanent in chase and reduces chase times by 53%.
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@Nazzzak said:
Pick the other guy up and hook him while she lays useless to her team. Then just eat the DS and continue chasing her because you're better off getting her while she's injured than letting her fully recover with PT
This is the answer.
It takes no perks or add-ons, and you've already identified the survivor's perks and plan here. Not to mention it's giving the killer free pressure having one survivor off gens for you for no discernable gain.
The amount of time this survivor wasted recovering, let alone following you around for 60 seconds could've been better spent on an entire gen. Not to mention this survivor dedicated literally half their build to this combo, and all you have to do is go hook the other guy and it makes their effort completely meaningless.
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At this point a lot of killer players see tunneling as the only way to play the game. And I don't say that lightly, there are people who genuinely do not have any idea how spreading pressure works.
Tunneling is the 'one trick pony' of DbD. There are only two outcomes to tunneling here too: either
- Tunneling works, and winning the 1v1 easily wins you the 4v1 and you get to win the game.
- Tunneling doesn't work, and you get outplayed in the 1v1 (including if the opponent is vastly better than you). This is usually followed by screaming at the devs here on the forums to nerf/change something you blame for the loss.
The latter case, there is usually zero introspection. These players aren't looking to improve their gameplay or get better at the game. A disturbing number of them think they're 'in the top 5%' or 'max MMR' but have demonstrated that they lack game sense or knowledge. The best skill they can present is posting incessantly until the devs eventually cave and nerf the flavor of the month perk, then immediately move to the next one after that change goes live.
So no, I strongly disagree with the idea that people are learning anything from incessant tunneling.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707967#Comment_3707967
Anti Face Camp mechanic takes care of hard camping. Deliverance is also free and prevents camping. Reassurance isn’t really good and has like a 2% pick rate. It’s better to just trade last second.
As this has been pointed out literally every single time this mechanic is ever mentioned in any capacity:
Anti face camping does not 'take care of hard camping'. It somewhat takes care of face camping if the killer face camps long enough to fill the meter, and does nothing against proxy camping.
So reassurance is absolutely a valid perk to combat camping in general.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706130#Comment_3706130
Understand the candor, thanks for letting me know. Its been a saying for years that I've seen, and didn't know by the reaction if there was some type of recent inappropriate/cancellation/drama/etc situation.
My point was that it was possible for NOED to get zero value before being cleansed, which is why I originally compared the adrenaline changes to it. They have more parity now after both of their most recent nerfs (than they did in the past.)
Let's put it this way: the current adrenaline change means that the killer has to do exactly zero extra effort to completely counter the perk. There's no change in activity or game play that they need to do, just do their objective and hook a survivor and boom, adrenaline is countered.
NOED requires, as Pulsar mentioned, a minimum of 70 seconds of extra time in the survivors' part to counter it.
To even be close to comparable, NOED would have to be countered by the survivors doing nothing extra other than their objective. So basically if NOED simply didn't work on survivors who were touching a gen as the gates powered, for example.
That's comparable, and equally as ridiculous as the current adrenaline nerf. (The wake up thing is the only justifiable nerf here).
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@jayoshi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705476#Comment_3705476
You can easily counter that. With the BU + FtP combo, you down someone and a friend comes and saves them right away. Nothing you can do about them using that combo because the killer has a hit slowdown to wipe the blood. Then you have to wait it out. Then you down them an different friend comes and saves them right away. Again you wait for the enduring status to go away. You down them and the friend that did the first combo is now healed and they come by to use the combo. Rinse and repeat as their third friend is a gen jockey that also has the BU + FtP comb. Literally had this happen to me. PR + DMS can only happen at most three times but it's very easy to counter. It's not the same thing.
BU + FtP is very unhealthy for this game and so many people have complained about it and the fact that BHVR is okay with it being in the game is wild to me. They are so quick to remove any broken killer combos that can't be countered but they take their time on survivor. It's so annoying.Both of these combos are literally countered by having situational awareness. You recognize that with the pr+DMS combo.
If you are going for 30+ seconds in chase and don't notice a second survivor literally following you to pull this off that's a game sense issue. Not to mention that the survivor has to be healthy to use FtP, and injuring survivors is base kit for all killers.
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If you're expecting to win every game you play, you have astoundingly high expectations. Especially if you're angry about losing to 'meta' while playing doctor.
Killer is already winning roughly twice as much as survivor. Run these 4 perks on survivor and post your results. I'll see you in two weeks when you manage to escape with one other person.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701852#Comment_3701852
Because a 2K means the exits are open.
The killer has two objectives, kill survivors and prevent the exits from being powered. You failed to prevent the exits from being powered.
This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen on this forum.
The killers only objective is to kill survivors. That's it. The only reason gens come into play at all is to give the killer more time to complete their only objective of killing the survivors.
This implies that an end game build that results in a 4k after the gates are powered is somehow a' killer loss'. Which is completely absurd.
Gens are not the killers objective. Survivors are.
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@Neaxolotl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701625#Comment_3701625
It doesn't really matter if you look it from killer's side, because actual matches are pretty much SWFs anyway
Last actual statistics from BHVR put solo q population at about 60% of the survivor player base, with 4-mans at about 10%.
So yeah, making the game suck for anywhere from 60 to 100% of survivors is a big problem. Not every swf is team eternal, despite what others on here might try to make people think that.
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@UndeddJester said:
I watched that video... and it made no sense to me. I like Coconuts, I thoroughly enjoy many of his videos... but when he is arguing a serious point, he can at times be a bit selective with his evidence if he's pushing a point, and he likes grandiose and poetic perspectives. He generally has been pushing lately back against balance and wants more chaos in the game, and tends to cherry pick his examples a lot.
People constantly complain skill-based matchmaking doesn't work, and the games are ludicrously imbalanced, pitting newbies with high level players on either side because it prioritises quick games.
Now we're complaining that the games are too strict matching players of similar skill together, meaning every game goes to the wire and the stress of it makes everyone play sweaty.
So which one is it? Cause it can't be both.
If people wanna suggest removing SBMM, I'll listen to the argument, but the PTB doesn't have it, and that looks way worse for your average game... and noone suggests anything other than to make the game a free for all, which sounds horrendous... especially for survivors... can you imagine soloQ with a competant killer and 3 bambis while you're the only experienced player, without madness like old DS and DH to save you? It sounds awful…
My games generally feel pretty fair and even; sometimes I get easy games, sometimes I get hard ones. It shifts predictably based on who I'm playing with if I'm in a SWF... so the alternative is to just abandon all of that and just make every game a total crapshoot as to how competant your team are? Doesn't sound good for survivor side, cause its already bad enough accounting for your teammates random playstyles in soloQ.
can you imagine soloQ with a competant killer and 3 bambis while you're the only experienced player, without madness like old DS and DH to save you?
I firmly believe that this point right here is why people want this system back so badly. This situation only sucks for the survivors.
A disturbing number of people on this forum put themselves in the killer's shoes in this scenario and see only
free winsa 'fair matchmaking system that recognizes their god tier skills'.