AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
About
- Username
- AmpersandUnderscore
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3740957#Comment_3740957
Nah capping hard there's plently of vaults survivors can use like the upstairs boiler vault thing is awesome reusable and a BL users dream
I said not loopable. The boiler is one time then you literally have to leave it by design of falling into the lower floor.
ETA: You seem to have misunderstood what I wrote. Vaults are, by definition, reusable, which is why I listed every vault on the map as a reusable resource. They are not all loopable vaults, in fact most of them are only usable one way (at the exit, the boiler drop down, above the bathroom). The only loopable vaults would be the T-L, which is weak, or the freezer, which has terrible sight lines and your basically forces to leave it or just lose a 50-50.
-
@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3740491#Comment_3740491
4-5 what were you trying to prove
It's because the game has almost no reusable survivor resources by design, which is why there are so many pallets.
There's no shack, or even shack equivalent on this map. The closest thing is the freezer room, which is specifically weaker than the shack, except maybe dead Dawg's weird shack.
Other than the freezer, none of these vaults are loopable. There's 2 at a T-L, which is a pretty weak tile and easily playable by killer. One is literally a dead end at an exit, and one is the drop down at the vat. I'll even count the one above the bathroom, which basically forces you into the basement if you take it.
So the game is designed to be a map with almost entirely consumable resources. Removing pallets would mean they have to add some loopable vaults. Pallets are one use, vaults can be used repeatedly.
This is also a map that is full of dead ends unless the killer decides to open walls, basically forcing pallet drops by design as well.
-
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3739348#Comment_3739348
Well first of all doing generators is really boring so I would like there to be different objectives that have a value for not only me but also the team, which is why I think fun little mini games are a good idea. This also gives the incentive to do something else than gens as it might help you in the long run, it won't make the game quicker but maybe safer I guess? The aura reading on gens might help you preventing a 3 Gen in a dry area for example.
I don't think slowing down should be the goal necessarily... The primary issue is people tend to define Gen Rush as just doing gens where survivors can argue what else am I supposed to do? There are no meaningful side objectives, unless killer specific. Which is why I want to add meaningful side objectives. If those help the survivors to some degree that is great, because the killer probably won't patrol them, ideally he should not see where they are.
The point is that those side objectives might be of benefit for your goal of finishing the gens, not necessarily directly but indirect... Preventing a 3 Gen for example or making it easier to break, something along those lines, an additional layer of gameplay to support the players in reaching their goal.
I don't think making them mandatory helps, because that would just mean add more stuff similar to gens, and then you might as well add more gens and give them a different minigame…the only difference would be that the killer most likely will not patrol side objectives.
It is necessary to give the gameplay variety... Doing gens is boring and other objectives would be a great addition to the gameplay loop, especially if they can impact the flow or the outcome of the game.
It is necessary to give the gameplay variety...
I completely agree.
My fear, is that optional objectives will end up turning out like some of the custom game modes the devs have implemented in the past. Take the winter event as an example: survivors were throwing snowballs just for the fun of it, but that ended up with killers sweating it out to get much easier games. Once the survivors realized that the "fun" side objective was just losing them the game, the mode reverted back to "do gens or die" and the side objective stopped being relevant.
-
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3739293#Comment_3739293
I just gave you 2 things? Turning on switches to get locations of gens, not mandatory but can be helpful.
Special chest that offer items that can be useful but not the items that you can bring into the game, could even be map specific. For example for the Game or Hawkins it could be a key card to open doors. It could be anything depending on what the goal is.
Those things could also offer different mini games... For the opening doors action you could for example make it a connect cable game like in Among US and if the killer does not want to deal with it he can m1 the thing break it. Not saying every door should have that, but maybe some of them.
Then there could be for example parts of a map you can pick up that give aura reading on certain things in that specific quarter of the map.
There are really many things that could be possible. We could also introduce more of an incentive to do dull totems because currently the only reason to break them is noed... How about we introduce a rather hard minigame, if you pass it the totem gets destroyed x seconds earlier, doing the minigame is not mandatory in that case it takes the normal time. The time reduction should be really small like 1 or 2 sec max. If the minigame is fun people will do bones just to play the minigame. Other than that maybe give people a buff for breaking dulls and laying the bones to rest, something rather small, 1-2 % increase on certain actions, nothing big but a little something.
Then I have to ask why you think an extra objective is necessary. The primary reason most people give is that "games need to be slowed down for survivors". Which is why the objective in general needs to be mandatory, or enticing enough for survivors to do it optionally.
If you make the objective optional, then you have the chest problem. It might give newer survivors something to try out, and it will slow down those games, but they're already easy. But as survivors learn that the only way to escape is to complete gens, they will do gens and nothing else. At "high MMR" survivors will just ignore any optional objective and bang out gens and escape as fast as possible.
That's why I'm critical of these kinds of things, is that in order to actually slow down the game, the objective needs to be mandatory instead. Which is basically synonymous to adding extra gens, or just adding extra steps to gens (which is functionally the same thing). You can call it whatever you want, but the end result is identical to adding extra gens here.
So if the objective is optional, it does nothing to slow the game down, and is literally just adding content bloat for the sake of doing it. With the options you've listed, you seem to have a goal other than slowing down the game for survivors, so why do you think it's necessary for the devs to put effort into this?
-
We already have chests, which is probably the best example of a 'failed' secondary objective. There's minimal incentive to do them, they take away from valuable gen time, and people generally agree that it's a waste of time for survivors.
So if you're making those things optional then likely no one will do them, for a similar reason.
If you're making them mandatory then how is that not potentially frustrating to survivors?
-
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3739289#Comment_3739289
Given that 60% is their goal...
The issue is you don't know what happens in between those sets of data, the stats could be all over the place, you are just assuming that it has to be this way... You are basically just guessing.
I have about 3 data points. Making any claims about anything in between, either way, is literally guessing.
But throwing out those data points because you don't like or agree with the direction they indicate is just disingenuous. You're heavily implying the actual data is inaccurate because we don't have more info in between. You have nothing but speculation to say that.
Even nightlight disagrees with you there, and that's a not a complete picture, and has several caveats.
-
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3739282#Comment_3739282
Can you not turn this into the same old us vs them thing? Both sides want a fun experience and some variety... Nobody wants to generators for 500 h straight, there needs to be variety in the gameplay.
Circle of healing is still decent, people used it that much because it was super busted, as killer you could never play hit and run because the reset time was so low, you didn't create pressure with hooking because the survivor could self heal so fast... Circle of healing could have a small buff and be fine, the other boons need a bit more to see usage, but given their effects makes it hard to not overbuffed them...
What could for example work would a secondary objective that lights up gens... Let's say each map has 3 or 4 switches that are always at the same spots and when you turn them on gems get highlighted for all survivors, either by aura reading or that huge light we have on maps.
Then there could be some special chests that allow you to get a one time use item that for example progresses a gen by x percent or reduces the total amount of charges needed for that Gen by 10% it would be not as busted as BNP because you have to spend time getting it and what not.
I think there are many things that could be done that a lot of people would agree on, but it sadly seems like the extremes on both sides just want the other side to be miserable, but alas C'est la vie...
I'm not turning into us vs them. Literally the only things that fit the criteria people ask for are more gens, or survivors forced to be afk.
You're focusing on balance of old items, that isn't my point.
Give me an option that isn't standing afk, or mandatory objective that would actually not make either side miserable.
I'm open to suggestions, but so far all anyone is throwing out is reinforcing my point that the only side objectives the devs have tried are completely rejected, and literally no one is giving a viable option that isn't essentially just adding gens or making base kit corrupt.
So please, offer suggestions.
-
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3739285#Comment_3739285
How would you know that it is higher than ever? It is not like we get to see the data that often...
And of those times they share it, it's consistently gone up. It was about 50% right at 6.1.0 two years ago, it was about 55% a year later, and currently it's about 60%.
We don't get data that often, but the data they give is has a very clear trend.
-
@burt0r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738721#Comment_3738721
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738726#Comment_3738726
I would argue your reasoning is horrible wrong as to why it's complained about.
Switching fast paced matches that are stressful as killer with slower matches but survivor can deny (pick-up /hooks) and frustrate the killer is simply not a good deal for the killer side and ends with a net zero change in terms of unfun.
I have no idea what would really work in combination with slowing gen progress and still give survivor a secondary objective worth their time but you really can't expect hard denying killer progress in tandem is going to make them happy.
It would be the same if tunneling/camping/aso would be straight up made impossible but in tandem gens would take double or triple the time. Wouldn't survivor complain about that?
Killers are already eating better than they ever have been before, kill rates are about 60% across the board in every MMR. That's higher than ever.
Literally every single thing that's been "frustrating" for killers in the past two years had been nerfed into the ground.
Doubling or tripling the gen times would kill this game. And people would still just run quad slowdown and be really frustrated by survivors who can loop better than they can... Because all this would do is further inflate MMR for killers. The same thing happened during the gen kick and 3 gen metas, where killers had literally infinite time to play out the match.
-
@Souplet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738721#Comment_3738721
Apparently survivor mains cant understand basic math
Lets say you dont play nurse nd you want to have some fun with, idk, sadako
You enter a chase against a healthy survivor. It takes you roughly 1 min to get them down.
1 min chase means 3 min in survivor time wich means e3 gens that can be at 70%.
You want to pick up the downed survivor and hook them (YOUR PRIMARY OBJECTIVE)but someone comes in for the save.
Normally its fine, because that recquires actual planning wich means people getting off of gens to follow the killer around.
But in swf with old ftp bu, its a lose lose situation. You lost 1 min of your time and you now need 30 seconds more, which means 1 min more on gens (2 survs still doing gens). By the time you finally down the survivor again, those 3 gens i talked about just poped. 1 hook for 2 gens left.
Same happened with backround player
Same is happening with sabo.
Getting in the way of the killer main obj shouldnt be this eay. Im fine with the high risk high rewards. But new sabo is just about the reward, as were ftp+bu
When we say we want secondary obj for surv, its a way for them to not insta jump on gens. This or basekit corrupt would help killers imensly but thats another topic.
So, you're angry enough to be super condescending if killers are in any way inconvenienced, even if that requires having multiple survivors in one chase and off gens...
But survivors need to be forced to be afk so you can win more. Yeah, that sounds like the reasonable stance.
-
@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738721#Comment_3738721
The issue is not the secondary objective but it's strenght... Circle of healing was an issue because it allowed for unlimited 1 person resets at quite the fast speed.
Ftp buckle up was problematic because if it worked there was nothing you could do because they swoop in during your cooldown...
Secondary objective means I as the survivor want to do something meaningful besides gens... Totems for example could become more relevant or maybe prepare something for the team that is not a boom, but a nice little bonus.
As with everything it is about the balance, circle of healing is still OK, it is just not busted...
A secondary objective has to be something that survivors volunteer to do. So there has to be some kind of benefit to entice them to do it.
Nerfing boons destroyed them, they aren't used hardly at all any more and are generally a waste of time.
Every single thing I mentioned has a benefit to the survivor, and it was enough to pull them off of doing gens. But, as I said, we apparently can't have anything like that.
The only thing killers want is a mandatory objective that forces survivors to take longer doing their objective. And it can't, in any way, affect the killer... That's a key detail for most people.
The only options that fit this at all, are doing more gens, or forcing survivors to stand afk at the start of the match with something like base kit corrupt.
-
Something complicated like this is never going to fly. Not the least of the issues is that it's highly abusable.
But the bare minimum in two years that the devs could do to help combat tunneling was making DS 5 seconds again, and they couldn't even do that. Even making the hook timer longer (90 second to match gens) is too much in their eyes… and there's zero way that can be abused.
They don't care about fixing tunneling, it's not an issue they are going to put any effort into whatsoever.
-
@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/417114/how-to-counter-weave-attunement
Proper way to counter Weave Attunement: Use a singular brain cell and 99 your item instead of using all of it😂😂
Ah yes, let me just 99 my single use one-heal med kit and not actually finish the heal.
-
@RaSavage42 said:
So….. Gens are 90 charges
Survivors repair Gens at 1.0-2.2 charges per second…. so 45-90 seconds
Killers regress Gens at .25 charges per second…. so 360 seconds
then add in perks and Toolboxes and speeds are eye opening…. pros and cons to it
This is a pretty narrow view of regression.
Considering the most popular and most powerful forms of regression take large chunks out of a generator, and base kit kicks take 5% of total, this ignores all of that. If pain res and pop both hit the same gen, that's about 40+ percent of the generator completely gone in a matter of seconds.
Since BNP rework, there's literally nothing that adds a chunk of gen progress like this. It's all gradual and over time. And this doesn't touch on perks that make gens take longer, or block them completely.
-
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3738564#Comment_3738564
The thing is, they try to give Survivors alternatives aside from just sitting on a Gen. They removed Background-Player and FTP/Buckle Up, now they added sabotage as something to do for Survivors aside from doing Gens. (Yes, they did not remove it, but they nerfed the Perks in a way that they are not really worth using anymore)
And this is the closest they can do for a secondary Objective. And it promotes Killer/Survivor-Interaction.
They've tried this numerous times to give the 'secondary objective' that people (killers) are clamoring for.
But that alternative can't be beneficial to survivors, we tried that with boons.
It can't involve interacting with the killer, apparently, because bu+ftp, BP+FB, and now sabo.
The only thing that hasn't been complained about in this regard is the invocation, which, even after being buffed, is still a killer perk.
At this point, 'secondary objective' is just code for 'they need more gens'.
-
@HexHuntressThighs said:
Yes Pop is dead. It was literally how it is right now over a year ago and nobody used it so they buffed it back up to 30%
Then people complained and it got nerfed again. Go read the change log on the wiki lol, it’s bananas
No it wasn't like this before. They've added 5% of total gen progress to base kit since then.
Right now, this perk is doing 20% of current and 5% of total in one regression event. That's not at all what it did before.
They're slowly making the pre-6.1.0 pop base kit, and losing the weaker current gen progress of the perk as compensation. Ignoring the base kit buffs here is why people are misunderstanding the reason the perk is getting nerfed.
-
@Firellius said:
I also feel that the kill rate for killers across the board is deceptive and doesn't take into account the pace of play. I've had many games where I get 3 or 4 kills but there is 1 to 0 gens remaining and I didn't start getting pressure until 2 gens were done and a 3rd about to be completed. Point here being that just cause I got a 4k it doesn't mean that pace of play isn't a problem.
What... What exactly is the complaint here? 'I won, but survivors got close/had a chance'?
Do we want games to close out with 2+ gens left all the time?
Do we want games to close out with 2+ gens left all the time?
The answer here, unfortunately, is yes in too many cases.
Ever since about 6.1.0 and the gen kick meta, way, way too many killers have moved the goal post on what a 'win' entails. A 4k means nothing to some people if gens are completed.
Basically gens are the main objective for some killers now, so it only counts as a win of it's a 4k with 5 gens remaining. Otherwise it's a loss, for some reason.
I don't know how the devs can fix this mentality. The gens are not the objective, the survivors are.
-
@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3737183#Comment_3737183
Firstly, i'm not against exhaustion or something, i'm just comparing it.
Secondly, DH fully deserved every bit of nerf it got. I still see nightmares, where I'm breathing into survivor's neck for 10 seconds E V E R Y damn chase just because one perk exists into the game, not even into the match. And it's still one of the most popular and strongest perks for survivors in right hands and free health state against M2 killers. So nah, I don't think so.This is kind of exactly what I'm talking about tho.
A perk that only works in the pvp aspect of the game being called 'free', while simultaneously exaggerating how 'laborious' and 'skillful' it is to kick a PvE gen, which can't move, you get a permanent aura of it's location, and there's nothing the other team can do about it. (Chases, by the way, are also inevitable that you get a down)
It's the same double standard that got CoH nerfed too: somehow finding and blessing a totem is 'free' yet kicking a gen is some immaculate display of skill that takes 4 minutes to complete.
Please.
-
I didn't think this perk needs anything. It's already pretty good in general, especially good if you can coordinate.
Is rather they spend their effort on some of the game's many underused, underpowered perks instead.
-
I mean, people kinda did themselves a disservice by pushing for the second dead hard nerf. When people were calling it 'free' to have to be injured, not deep wounded, recently hooked, have a half second of timing, depend entirely on your opponent, and hope you win the latency coin toss, then everything else in the game must also be 'easy to activate' by comparison.
-
It would help to understand how you're approaching this issue. The devs have given a huge number of info perks over the past couple years, so instead of just having BBQ as the only option, there are a ton more perks available now for finding survivors.
What perks are you running here?
Any time I see this issue, I can only picture someone with quad slowdown running around blind and then posting for the devs to fix it. If people aren't going to use the tools the devs give them, then there's really nothing more they can do to help you. That may not apply to you specifically, but there are absolutely people who this does apply to here.
-
My biggest recommendation is to focus on chase, not gens. There are some looping and zoning guides you can watch that will really help shorten your chase times and give you a better idea of how to optimize your kit.
If you're chase focused, you can also deliberately chase the 'good survivor' and see what they do better. That helps you see where you can improve.
I also recommend finding a killer you find interesting and focusing on them. Even without add-ons you can learn some tricks with their kit and not become dependent on certain add-ons. I usually learn new killers with qol add-ons and not gameplay defining 'best' ones.
But don't focus on gens or winning if you're still learning, you'll only get frustrated. The gens are not your objective, the survivors are.
-
@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736508#Comment_3736508
Right since wanting things is entitlement then survivors clearly don't need anymore basekit BT antiface camp having and wanting anymore of that is peak entitlement
I never said 'wanting things is entitlement'.
You're asking for more on top of the three different buffs dry kicking has received. While pretending like those don't exist.
-
@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736375#Comment_3736375
if your only giving us a 5% kick only useable 8 times per gen and gutting our 20% gen regression perks uh yeah we do need it 5% is so not enough in exchange
Again, you got your kick buffs. That's what you were complaining about.
Wanting more is just entitlement. Killers are already dominating the game in every metric that actually matters. (And gens completed during your 4k is not a metric that actually matters)
-
@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3736177#Comment_3736177
Lets not forget Gen kicking does little to nothing to gens 5% (4 mins to fully regress)and they limited gen kicking for terrible reasons and our regression perks add to the gen kick limit. I'm ok with gen perks being nerfed as long as basekit kicking gets stronger in exchange
I'm ok with gen perks being nerfed as long as basekit kicking gets stronger in exchange
Good news then, since they already buffed the base kick twice and added an anti gen tap feature. All free, no perks required.
But you knew that already, since you listed exactly these things...
Not everything requires a compensation buff.
-
Overwatch tried something like this for a while, and it didn't work well. They added a 'hero ban' for the top picked heroes for a while to do exactly this meta shakeup.
Unfortunately it just led to having two metas that swapped every time they implemented a new ban wave.
In DbD terms, it would just mean that one month would ban pop+PR, then people would use DMS+GE while those were banned. Then dms+ge would get banned the next wave and people would go back to using pop+pe.
-
@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3734454#Comment_3734454
there’s a fundamental problem when trying to “fix” tunneling, and that is… no matter what you add, the idea is always one of the 3…
• Exploitable by Survivors/Rewards being bad as a survivor
• Heavily Punishes killers who don’t tunnel effecting the average game
•Too Clunky, and difficult to code, and usually falls in tandem with the other 2
I have seen countless ideas for anti tunneling, and each of them always has one of these 3 issues. To be fair, and not to by a hypocrite I don’t really HAVE any ideas to solve tunneling, I don’t really have good ideas in general, but tunneling is something baked into the game.
I'm just going to jump in to mention that a hook donation system would avoid all of these issues.
Let's say that survivors can choose to donate their first hook stage to a shared pool, and any hooks come out of that pool first, before individual hash marks. (Perk or core mechanic, to be decided) You can still only use deliverance/Kobe attempts on your first hook, and we could even go so far as to say that if you attempt to Kobe at all, it doesn't use the shared hook pool to prevent soh griefing.
It's not exploitable by survivors (or by killers). It also doesn't affect killers who don't tunnel... In fact, spreading hooks becomes the most efficient way to make sure the shared hook pool is empty and you aren't wasting time waiting for the first person you found to be unhooked. If you're already playing so that your first 4 hooks are different survivors, this is exactly the same as live.
There's no 'clunkiness', just a simple coding of the mechanic, and a ui element to show how many shared hooks exist. This isn't some convoluted system where the game has to decide if the gameplay meets some arbitrary criteria.
This is one potential way to make tunneling (and camping as well) completely obsolete. The only way to do that is to make tunneling less efficient, and this does that. Sure, the killer could choose to chase one survivor for 5 hook stages, but leaving the rest of the team alone for that is going to be a losing game. It basically forces killers to spread map pressure, which is a form of slow down.
If other changes are necessary, then so be it. The devs have had no issues with buffing killers individually or more generally with perks other than slowdown lately. Forcing killers to be involved in more chases should be healthy for the game, and might start to wean people off of reliance on quad slowdown perks.
-
@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3724180#Comment_3724180
The system isn't being subverted though.
The current system isn't particularly good and prioritizes matchmaking speed over balanced matches when it is working properly. It isn't like MMR changes function just because a killer leaves the lobby since it not that narrowly gated to begin with and since by default we can't see the MMR scores you have no way of knowing how much of an actual difference there is.
It is being subverted though.
They've basically already told us that once a lobby is created, and someone leaves, matchmaking basically turns itself off completely to get literally anyone that can fill that slot as fast as possible.
So when killers dodge a lobby, this is how you get situations of a 10k hour nurse going against 200 hour survivors, or the other extreme of a 5 hour killer against 6k hour survivors.
When searching for a lobby, it only gradually widens the MMR range slightly every several minutes. The only way the matchmaker would make these mistakes before the lobby is created with players in it, is if the players are literally waiting to queue for something like 30 minutes.
Lobby dodging opens the flood gates and completely bypasses the matchmaker to prioritize speed as much as possible.
-
@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3729742#Comment_3729742
What a poor argument. Gens can be done in 2:30-3:00 minutes in best case scenario, with toolboxes, BNP and all stuffs. 4-5 minutes is average game against good survivors without slowdown. If you believe killer has ANY chances to have 12 hooks in the same time, even with tunneling, you probably play some different dbd.
There is nothing about "skill level", it's just simple math. Chases should be around 15 seconds long for this game be balanced around killer without slowdown. This is why survivors crying "nerf slowdown" and then do surprised faces, when all this pressure going into shorter chases with weaker maps and stronger killers ability.This is just simply misleading.
The world record for survivors was about 3:45 seconds, with a comp level team going in with the singular goal of having the world record. Since that record, BNP, prove thyself, dead hard, DS, the map they used, a huge number of loops, and a ton of other things have been nerfed into the ground.
This has about as much credibility as saying that the world record killer game was a nurse getting a 4k in about 1:30 and then pretending that's the norm in your 'average game'.
-
@appleas said:
Another point that hasn't been raised is whether there are enough players from different mmr ranges queuing.
The backfilling is speculated to happen when someone of similar MMR dodges the lobby. What about cases where there aren't enough players of similar level playing in the region in the first place? Wouldn't the queue system be forced to grab someone from a higher or lower mmr range to compensate?
There is a possibility that even if lobbies are locked to prevent lobby dodging, there will still be cases of mismatched opponents. I don't think all the "backfilled" situations are purely due to people lobby dodging but probably a combination of dodging and not enough players on both sides for each mmr range.
I say this because last year, I got matched up against a 8k hour Survivor who was streaming. I went back into their vod to check if there was anyone who dodged the lobby prior to me and there wasn't. I had 800 hours at that point in time so I think it would be reasonable to assume that this Survivor would be in a different MMR range from me.
So if there was no backfiling, how did I get matched with this 8k hour player? The most likely conclusion was that there was no one else of a similar mmr range queuing so the game just gave up and chucked me into the lobby.
The lobby locking/hiding player information suggestion probably won't resolve the issue of people from different mmr being matched together, in fact it will become more obvious when it happens.
They've already told us a bit about how this happens when they did some live MMR testing with the game about a year and a half ago.
The matchmaking system initially looks for players who are relatively close in MMR (this range is one of the variables they tested).
If the system can't find enough players to fill a 'perfectly matched' lobby after a little bit (another variable), it expands the MMR range it's using (yet another variable) and looks again.
This process basically continues until the lobby is full, ideally… however, if a player leaves an already full lobby, the system uses a fairly wide band of MMR range (again, another variable) to fill that slot as quickly as possible.
When the devs did their testing, they tweaked all of these variables every day for over a weekand asked for feedback from the community for how games felt every day, but didn't tell us what they had changed. The consensus from those tests were that getting into lobbies faster was most popular (meaning MMR ranges vary more in a lobby). Lobby dodging does this fastest.
Oh, and one of the tests they did without saying what they changed was to use the old 'rank' system from before MMR. And that was one of the least popular options.
-
@Sandt1985 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728701#Comment_3728701
"Solo Q could use some buffs."
DO they, tho? Do they really? I'd like to point out how many buffs solo que got in the past 2 years. Anti face camp, basekit BT, the new gen regression rework to prevent three gens, nerfs to gen regression perks across the board multiple times, a way for all survivors to see when another survivor is in chase, showing all survivors what specific action another survivor is doing at all times, the visual heartbeat, STBFL was nerfed, mangled was gutted, solo que has gotten a lot of help over the years. The one other thing they tried was basekit unbreakable, but that PTB it was tried in showed why that should never be attempted again.
I gotta ask, what more do you want? Basekit 5 second DS? Basekit Kindred? When will it be enough?
Fun gameplay would be a great start.
If they're going to take the game as a whole in the competitive direction, then solo q will continue to have problems.
This is, apparently, a competitive PVP game in 2024 that has no way to communicate with your team whatsoever. You get two emotes total, plus crouching to communicate everything, and even after 8 years no one can agree on what 'waving your arms on hook' means. There's no in match chat, no ping system, no voice chat, just... hope that you're on the same page as your teammates.
On top of that, nearly every challenge the game gives you is designed to have the survivors throw the game. So, by design, the game is trying to give your team conflicting goals so you're not be on the same page. Three of you trying to escape is just too bad, cause one guy has to break 16 totems while deep wounded.
You can list whatever you want, but the overall escape rate has dropped drastically since 6.1.0. across the board, swf or no swf, and for every mmr. So when you take into account things like map changes, loop nerfs, and killer buffs, the game is definitely not stacked in the survivors favor. And looking at the DC rate, the escape rate players experience is somewhere in the 34% range, since BHVR throws out any game with a disconnect in official stats.
The game is significantly less fun at this point. I think fun is supposed to be the point, personally.
-
@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730109#Comment_3730109
They can implement a decaying feature to where if they stop DCing/suiciding they’d be back into the general pool of matchmaking. But if they don’t, it shouldn’t let them back to ruin everyone else’s matches.
I think the flaw in this is that the game is going to have a real hard time creating lobbies once all the killers who constantly lobby dodge are moved into the shadow banned matchmaking pool.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730604#Comment_3730604
You've kinda got to pick your scenario, though, because there are two things sort of being conflated in this thread.
There's survivors using this incidentally, when they're just trying to hide, as you say here. Then, separately, there are SWF players trying to leverage it for perfect callouts at all times, which you mention in the original post.
In the case of the latter, it's really inefficient and risky.
In the case of the former, it's already weak to killers not needing to look for you because they brought info perks and already know where you are, and it's risky because you still have to stay exactly where you are and not crouch-walk away, which is usually how stealth like that works.
Then, on top of those reasons, the fact that the killer has such a wealth of good builds/perks to use that would completely shut the tactic down if they planned ahead (assuming it gets popular enough to warrant that) should be the final nail in the coffin. Whatever the scenario we're looking at, outside of rare instances where the perk combo isn't popular at all so you're caught off guard by someone just trying to hide once in a blue moon, it's just not going to be that big of a deal as far as I can see.
This.
I'll also add that there are already two base kit mechanics that affect this as well: survivors are blind in lockers, so the perk doesn't do anything if you're trying to hide your aura/scream from the killer. (And as you mentioned, the perk doesn't prevent the killer from finding you)
Crows are specifically designed to reveal survivors who are standing still, doing nothing.
-
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730591#Comment_3730591
The general perception in this forum is, once again, that there is some OP Perk or anything. And yet, it will be wrong. Again. But for some reason, this has to be done every Chapter.
The Perk is not good. Really. Having once Survivor idle for information is not worth it. Object was far stronger than this, simply because the Survivor using it could also progress the game AND Killers are stronger now compared to the time Object was at full power.
It is just another overreaction to another garbage Perk.
When weaving spiders is being considered 'decent' by some people, you can see where the bar is set: anything above a Z-tier perk is too much.
-
@HexHuntressThighs said:
And they tried making it to where she went from 77% when holding a hatchet to 88% while still being a 110% killer. People were sobbing and puking because it was such a Giga buff (it wasn’t)
I can’t wait to see the kill rates and still see her at the bottom. Oh well, it is what it is.
I very distinctly remember people crying for months about how completely broken and game shattering permanent move speed increases are for the game.
An 11% move speed bonus, permanently, is quite a bit bigger than 3%, last I checked.
That entire buff for huntress was 100% intended to combat MfT, and they deleted MfT. The move speed buff was completely unnecessary, so they removed it. And rightfully so.
-
@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725378#Comment_3725378
MFT was busted cause it had an unlimited duration if they just made the duration only last 5-10 seconds like most haste perks and addons it wouldn't have been as big of a problem. Now they're giving status effects perks (Hindred, Blindness, Etc) for Survivors to use against Killers i want the Killer version of (Balanced landing, Lithe, Sprint burst) as a perk already. Imagine the Fear if Nemesis dropped from a second floor window and just mad sprints at you cause he had balanced landing
So... bloodlust.
Which has no exhaustion mechanic, doesn't take a perk slot, and is effectively infinite until you get a hit.
-
@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3729742#Comment_3729742
This is the correct mindset when play as killers.
If I won 10 matches in a row with 0 slowdown then suddenly the game is harder that I can 2-3K instead of 3-4K. I can put a slowdown or two to 3-4K again. Then the game is harder that with two slowdown but I can only get 2-3K. Then I use quad slowdown to get 3-4K, then the game is harder that quad slowdown is still not enough for me.
For some reasons killers just dont understand this.
Just play the build you like and MMR works for itself, you SHOULD have 60% kill rate no matter the build and play style, MMR exist for that solve reason "try hard or casual have similar win rate". So why try hard?
Exactly this.
People do not want to accept that killer is largely a role where you choose your own difficulty. If you play chill, you'll win about 60% of your games, but if you stack quad slowdown you'll win almost all of your games for a while (boosting your MMR) and then every game will be a tremendous sweat fest... while still winning about 60% of your games.
At this point though, a depressingly large number of posts on these boards are people who used broken meta perks, or overtuned base kit mechanics like camping and tunneling to temporarily win more and inadvertently boost their MMR. So most games are a 'struggle' simply because they've overextended themselves and are playing against opponents that are better than they are.
-
@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3729875#Comment_3729875
I believe that hope always exists in match regardless of the perception.
That is very optimistic of you.
I try to be a bit of a realist, and accept that the survivors' goal shifts throughout the match. At the very start, it's getting as many people out as possible. Depending on how the match goes, that shifts to getting hatch. And some people go one step further and just want to go next.
I remember a game a while back where I played with my duo partner against a wesker. The other two, Claudette and Meg, got downed together near the basement about a minute in and the killer just stood at the top of the stairs camping them. That's not a 'buckle up and we've got this' situation, it's an unwinnable scenario for survivors. That game was already over at that point, we just had to decide who might try to get hatch.
-
@HerInfernalMajesty said:
I think it’s a perception issue. A perception of hopelessness. When Survivors 4% themselves out of a match it’s done for a reason. It could be anything really, trolling, throwing, loss of hope, actual hope etc. I never DC as a Survivor. And I can not tell you how many times games appeared to be a lost cause that ended up getting turned around where some of us escape.
I pride myself on sticking it through to the end of a match. I also pride myself on never losing hope that some kind of comeback can happen, even if it’s hatch. However, even I experience false hopelessness of the redemption of a match sometimes.
I know most people don’t share my levels of optimism so I imagine that the perception of a loss is much stronger for other players and they decide to give up as a result.
It really isn’t over until it’s over with this game. In fact, some of my most exciting moments from the game have come from matches that look impossible to turn around.
Completely agree, the game hinges on survivors having a hope of escape. Without that, the game doesn't function properly and you get something like the 'just go next' mentality.
Unfortunately, regarding the topic, the only actual fix is to make the gameplay fun. Survivors can generally accept losing the game most of the time if the gameplay is fun. So fun chases, fun or even funny moments.
Getting tunneled out 25% of the time, and having to go be a gen jockey the other 75% isn't exactly mind blowing gameplay. There's no variety, it's just 'do gens or you lose' and, with the current game balance, you're probably gonna lose anyway.
-
@Marioneo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726042#Comment_3726042
This playing as Killer theres no way to circumvent the DC penalty i have to playout the match yes i can leave whenever but ill get a penalty everytime i DC.
Playing as Survivor anytime something doesn't go my way oh see an Artist or i get downed in 10 seconds im first chase i have this ultimate 3rd option hook suicide to circumvent the DC penalty and not playout the match screw over my teammates and i can do this infinitely without reprecussion cause its built in the game.
How is that fair? It's an outdated mechanic that needs changes just make it you have 3 chances to 4% but the meter doesn't drain when attempting
Killers can and do just go stand in a corner afk to avoid having to DC. You can even open the gates when they're powered to trigger egc.
And probably the biggest 'not penalized for it' is killers lobby dodging. If the killer decides not to play out that match, they just leave before it's begun. Which currently usually ends up ruining that lobby for 5 other players.
-
@danielmaster87 said:
I have yet to hear a compelling argument for why they should break. Most of it is just asking killers to keep track of and to do the most ridiculous and tedious stuff, which would never be expected of the survivor side.
Keeping track of things that are otherwise obscure is literally like half of survivor gameplay.
This is like making sure you're using resources appropriately and not creating dead zones with no resources, or not 3 genning yourself.
If the shoe was on the other foot, and we're specifically taking about continuing to use a resource once you've finished your objective there: then what would people say about being able to work a generator again after completing that same gen? That sounds pretty ridiculous to me, and still creates a dead zone you have to keep track of.
-
@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3729071#Comment_3729071
Flashlight saves have enough time to get the double blind, I know that very well.
Also, you have to account for addons/strong flashlights that increase blind speeds. I know for a fact I've gotten double blinded after going for a *pallet break as well if the first blind starts at the first frame, orange glyphs making it a guarantee, with the second blind coming at the very end of the animation before I can control my movements. Unless that's something dubious, I'm going to assume it's a possibility since I run into it enough.
*Changed from stun to break, don't know what I was thinking there.
Also, I am curious, why are we defending double blinds anyway? They have no real practicality for survivors since killer can look away in most cases to avoid it, and it's not like it saves you much time against killers who know where to path when blinded. I'd much rather have the blind duration increase and put in a soft invuln timer between blinds, and possibly add a buff (an addon buff?) that removes scratch marks from showing up during the blind duration or something. That seems like a reasonable exchange to me.
The better question to ask is, why are we looking to nerf or change anything when the answer is to look up or down?
Have we really hit bedrock of skill floor that this is too complicated for people to pull off?
-
@HexHuntressThighs said:
No, survivors who die on hooks corpses should stay on the hook. That way the hook can’t be used and the game would actually have a little bit of horror to it again. It wood be very cool to be the last survivor running past the hooked corpses while desperately trying to find hatch.
I've always wanted this. Can add a bit of killer flavor as well: like Nemesis makes the dead survivor a zombie that can reach out to other survivors as they run by.
Similar to how you can hear dead survivors crying near their death hooks playing against the doctor.
-
@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728886#Comment_3728886
When you're locked in animation and forced to eat the double blind, you can't?
And why not buff flashlight addons as an exchange?
Pretty much every animation lock is 3 seconds or less (kicking gens, pallets, etc.). Or even blade wiping, which you can actively look away while the animation is playing.
The first blind is due to animation lock, sure.
Any additional blinds are purely on the killer player not looking away as soon as they're blind the first time. You're never 'forced' to eat more than one blind unless you're playing with your feet.
-
The grades system was highly abusable, and there were a lot of people who would deliberately manipulate their grade to get easy games.
I don't personally care much about displaying it at the end of the match if people want to put it in their banner or something, but it shouldn't be an option in the lobby, just like prestige should only be shown after the end game.
@Ohyakno said:
I agree that if we're forced into MMR we should be able to see our number.
For me, there are only two options for the actual MMR number. Either it should be completely hidden, like now, or it should be always visible with no option of turning it off.
And by always visible, I mean that it's on the lobby, the end game screen, it's watermarked in your gameplay footage like an alpha NDA, your forum account requires linking your game account so your MMR can be visible on every post you make. There's no option to turn any of these off.
-
@Strodie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727408#Comment_3727408
Well, they should. The main issue survivors have to deal with is tunneling, and with the lack of options we have to combat tunneling, we are ultimately screwed either way. I think disabling the power is fair.
A 4 second stun will get you no value, 10 seconds is more reasonable since it gives you a high chance if getting away, tunneling should not be buffed.
10 seconds is far too much, but I completely agree with the first paragraph here.
Unfortunately, since a 5s DS stun was literally the bare minimum effort the devs could put towards tunneling issues, and it took them not only 2 years to do it but they also immediately reverted half of it, you can dream about anti tunneling perks or buffs all day and it won't matter.
This change tells me the devs don't care about giving any effective tunneling tools. They either want the game to play out that way, or maybe they've just bought into the 'tUnNeLlInG iS nEcEsSaRy' crap.
The reason doesn't really matter, the punch line is that they aren't taking bare minimum, reasonable actions, so we should stop hoping they'll take more drastic measures.
Expecting more at this point it's just wishful thinking.
-
@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726683#Comment_3726683
Yea because this will totally happen in a real match
I distinctly remember this meta because of a huntress game with 6.1.0 thana and pentimento.
She got one survivor out and I had to finish a gen by myself in almost 3 minutes with no way to heal while the other two were being chased and rescuing. She would systematically rekindle exactly one totem every time we broke penti to keep the gen debuff going.
Just the fact that this was possible and seemed 'ok' to the dev team to touch live for even two weeks is enough that, again, this perk should stay dead.
-
@Chiky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726424#Comment_3726424
put 3 survivors workin on it... I had that flash grenade perk and the gen got completed before the perk charged to 3/4...
You do realize that it's far, far better for survivors to split up on gens in almost every circumstance?
All it takes is the killer strolling by and all 3 of you have to leave, and likely lose a bunch of progress to boot.
Look at it this way, let's assume survivors start this scenario already on a gen and they start at the exact same time: If 3 survivors are on separate gens, 3 gens are done in 90 seconds. If 3 survivors group up on one gen, it gets done in ~43 seconds, then they travel together to the next gen, 43 more seconds, then the third gen together is 43 more seconds. So instead of doing 3 gens in 90 seconds, you can do 3 gens in 129 seconds, which doesn't even include any of the required travel time for the group.
And in the grouped up case, of the killer sees you together at any point you have to stop doing anything useful entirely. If you're separated, the killer can only interrupt one of you at a time, and the other 2 gens still progress.
-
@Phasmamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726841#Comment_3726841
I will say in general hast is more volatile for survivors just due to how looping works with their smaller hitboxes and how there can be 4 of them on a team.
But yeah things like huntress’ haste add-ons and perks like batteries included should be reconsidered imo as all they do is make chases more inconsistent in an annoying way survivors can’t really account for
Well it's not like the 3% stacked with more people having the perk. And it actively worked against the survivor of people would actively mind game tiles. You know, running at the killer faster.
But apparently a simple mind game is way, way too complex for all of the 'max MMR' players out there. You could tell that from the way people complained about 'how strong it is holding w'.
But that's the mentality that gives you all the haste buffs now. Haste was 'broken', and now magically it's not somehow. (It wasn't broken before, that's why)
-
You're kidding right?
Killers complained for like 6 months that haste was the most broken, overpowered buff ever created. All while screaming for more killer buffs.
So it should be no surprise that after a 3% haste perk gets deleted, that people are acting like 'what, is a permanent 5% speed increase for trickster supposed to do something? This is useless garbage.'
Apparently 3% is still somehow a bigger buff than 5%, which pretty much sums up most of the haste discussions over the past year.