AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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Tunneling isn't caused by gen speeds. We've already seen mountains of evidence.
Gen kick meta? 10 months of 30+ minute games: tunneling increased.
Any event ever, including lights out and winter event? Survivor stop gens to throw snowballs and, surprise surprise tunneling is in nearly every have again.
Nerfs to BNP and prove? (Remember how these were losing games left and right?) Hey look, more tunneling.
That's just off the top of my head. Tunneling is easy and efficient, so killers tend toward that. There's no carrot that fixes the problem here, you have to make tunnelling less efficient and people will naturally do it less.
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BGP+FB has the same counter as BU+FtP: situational awareness.
If you can go an entire half chase, at minimum, and not notice that there's a second survivor following you, that's a huge issue with paying attention to your surroundings that the devs can't fix.
Tunnel vision is literally the problem here, and it's a giant gap in game sense. Especially if you're getting hit with this repeatedly. Turn around once in a while, look around.
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Lockers got the free lightborn effect because people were doing double locker saves. Certain areas could allow two survivors to stay in lockers near each other and repeatedly save, no matter who got grabbed. And flashlights, especially with add-ons and certain perks, could do this for a very long time.
Flash bangs only work once, then you have to earn it again. It's one of the fairest perks in the entire game.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700624#Comment_3700624
Issue is features that would completely remove it, almost always can be heavily abused by survivors.
Not really.
All it takes is matching hook stages to gen speeds. That's it.
A 90 second hook stage means waiting around to tunnel one survivor is guaranteed to lose you gens. The best play becomes leaving the hook alone and pressuring survivors who are actually doing the objective instead.
Completely unabusable, and makes tunneling less efficient, which is exactly what you need to cut back on tunneling. If it's less efficient, players will automatically start doing it less.
Bonus that this also is an unabusable way to do the same thing for camping.
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@TickTackBoooom said:
you simply cannot expect anything from a SoloQ Team since communication is basically non existent. Join A Discord to find some people to play with but actually expecting to be rewarded for your actions in SoloQ is madness
So, what you're saying is that the game is dead for about 60% of the player base.
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@jokere98 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699027#Comment_3699027
well then, what is a counterplay to this? Outside of using specific perks
Background player +flashbang have the same counter as ftp+ bu right now. Awareness of your surroundings is a huge thing.
If you can't notice that a second survivor is literally following your chase, and it happens regularly enough to complain about the perks needing nerfed, or you can't look around before getting so excited to pick up immediately after the blade wipe finishes, then there's nothing the devs can do to help you.
If you think that survivors are somehow gods at keeping hidden while following a chase regularly enough to pull these combos off consistently, are you even trying to bait it out in any way? I doubt it, since the most common thing seen on the forums is to post immediately the first time something like this catches you.
These are basic game sense and observation things. Most killers aren't even aware of how long their chases are, and literally get tunnel vision on one survivor. There are an astounding number of 'high MMR' killers on these boards who self-admit they fail at one or more of these fundamentals. If you aren't even doing these sometimes, accidentally, then there's nothing, nothing the devs will be able to do for you.
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There should be no objections to having CoH allow the survivor to self care in any lit circle of healing boon as long as they brought the perk themselves.
Having 'easy access to healing' without bringing the perk yourself was the main complaint. This solves that issue without having the perk be literal dog #########.
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@devoutartist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3696380#Comment_3696380
it was adrenaline now its hope lmfao they cant stop
Technically it was MfT before adrenaline as well.
People spent months arguing that with the MfT (3%) and hope (7%) combo (total 10%) that the 3% was the real problem. Now that MfT is dead, it's supposedly Hope's fault now. Shocking.
It's been the status quo for two years now to move the goal post every time the devs nerf the flavor of the month that's in the spotlight.
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Dead hard will always be a perk that makes a comeback into the spotlight and the meta. It's a perk that gets the most value when killers forget that it exists, mainly when killers are lunging regularly at longer distances.
Of course killers hate it. It doesn't matter that it's one of the most restricted perks in the entire game, and heavily depends on both ping and player timing on top of that. Any survivor perk that both gets value and means killers might have to think about anything during chase is gonna get constant complaining.
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They tend to look only at kill rates, so a hatch escape is not considered a kill.
I suppose you can consider this an escape for the purposes of this thread/discussion, however... BHVR has specifically stated multiple times that the hatch counts as a 'draw' as far as MMR is concerned.
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Well, so far I was (unfortunately) half right with the animation being somehow longer than before.
Next step is for them to pull back the total stun 'based on feedback' to 3s so the perk is functionally worse than before.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691918#Comment_3691918
I don't think Made for This would've been complained about if it lasted for 5 seconds after being injured.
Since this post is about killers in general, trickster got a free, base kit 5% permanent speed boost.
According to the forums, that should put him above SM and he should have a 75% or higher win rate at this point.
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Of course their answer to buffing killers is haste. People spent 5 months screaming about how insanely, game-winningly-overpowered 3% haste is.
Although now it's certainly flipped into '3% doesn't make that big of a difference' now that MfT has been torched to the ground. Funny that.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690486#Comment_3690486
why? the generators are blocked after 8 regression events. all you have to do is exhaust the kicks. what this would benefit is kicking gens outside of 3 gen so i can be rewarded for choosing kick gens.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690476#Comment_3690476
it is not baseline. you have to kick the gen to gain benefit. You still have to equip hex:ruin to benefit from said change. I do think ruin needs some nerfs in 3 gens though when defending totem. So I suggest that ruin cleanses itself when 2 gens are remaining.
Because the gameplay for killers is supposed to be the survivors: chase, hooks, injuries.
There are absolutely players who hyper focus on gens and will take anything as an excuse to go back to incessant gen defense. It's the same reason that just nerfing Eruption didn't stop the gen kick meta, and they had to go further with COB and overcharge. (Which, btw, you're arguing that old COB should be base kit, essentially)
Even with the current state of the game, there are players crying about wanting more kicks in a game, or that it should be bypassable if you have 4 or more gens. They still didn't get the message that survivors are the killers objective.
There's zero reason to continue to buff gen kicks. None.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690404#Comment_3690404
how about buffing regression rate to 200%? this means that ruin regress gens at 200% and kicking gens become more rewarding.
Absolutely not.
They've already buffed dry gen kicks three times already, with 2.5%, then 5% chunks, then added anti-gen tapping on top of that.
If anything we should have learned over the past two years is that there are players who absolutely love to play gen kick simulator, and the devs clearly don't want that. Let's not continue to buff gen kicking and head straight back to that kind of play style.
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@Hexling said:
What if everyones getting all mad and the new animation takes 2 seconds making it actually 3 seconds running time. Since right now its 3 seconds and 1.5 sec running time with the current animation. They already stated its a stabbing animation.
Being as optimistic as possible, the length of the survivor stun/animation has been a big complaint for a while. When they announced a DS change on the road map, my only hope was that it involved animation work to address and shorten the survivor stun to, at most, 1 second.
Because waiting at all for just a 3s → 5s number change could've been implemented at literally any point.
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Tunneling should be made to be less efficient, but I wouldn't call it a 'punishment'.
For example, if hook stages were matched to gen speeds and were 90 seconds per hook stage that makes both camping and tunneling less efficient, but isn't punishing anything.
Just making that change alone makes pressuring survivors off gens a bigger priority than standing around camping furniture. Waiting at the hook is guaranteed to lose more gens, and if tunneling isn't a guaranteed win people will automatically do it less.
I'm 100% convinced that most killers don't understand the concept of pressure. They think 'pressure' and automatically assume that means camping a hook or making sure every gen on the map is regressing at once. Pressuring survivors means having one in chase, one on hook, and one going for rescue.
Most killers seem to play to occupy exactly one survivor and leave the other 3 to do whatever they want (it's gens), and then scream about how fast gens go. Yes, you just left them alone and chased one guy for 7 minutes and called it a 'strategy'. Usually while also screaming to nerf everything for survivors so your 7 minutes can be 5 minutes instead, which isn't the problem here.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3690083#Comment_3690083
Nope. If you just prolong the game long enough it does not matter if your chases are longer since more ressources are used up.
If anyone doubts this fact, see: gen kick meta, 3 gen meta, nearly every skull merchant match.
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@SaltyNooty said:
Somehow, I find it odd that killers aren't rejoicing in the fact that once again; a good perk for survivors has been nerfed (Ahem, they gutted Adren…) …but are instead, choosing to complain about DS being 5 seconds. Again.
A perk that didn't seem to bother them back then when it had 5 seconds before????A perk nerf means it's no threat.
For most killers on this forum, a perk buff that isn't live yet means they can spam the forums with complaints and probably get the devs to change their minds 'due to feedback'.
That 5s stun is a target, and you can guarantee that there will be posts about 'omg this is the worst, I just had 25 games with DS losing me the match' within about 3 seconds of this PTB going live.
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A 'crutch perk' heavily implies that the player can't play the game without it. I'm not sure why anyone would refer to an end game perk as 'crutch' given that you play the entire match without it.
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Killers already have several 'catch up' mechanics built into the base kit of the core game.
Resources like pallets are finish and single use, so using them up creates dead zones later in the match. Every time a gen is completed, the patrol area of the map shrinks and makes survivors play closer to the killer (this also makes dead zones more effective). Bloodlust is literally designed for killers who are taking too long to close out chase.
The killer can, at any point in the game, snowball. They can go from having zero progress and no hooks to a 4 man slug in a matter of seconds.
None of these work in the survivors favor, and there really isn't a need for a catch up mechanic for survivors. The closest thing I would be interested in seeing would be for the devs to nerf tunneling to be less efficient. The game needs improvements so that tunneling one survivor out as far as possible isn't generally a guaranteed win with gens remaining.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3687414#Comment_3687414
This seems nonsensical. DS is currently at 3 seconds (1.4 after animation). With a 5-second stun duration, survivors now have 2.8 seconds of actual stun duration. No other perks have changed. What is a difference or 1.4 seconds doing for survivors..? I’m totally confused.
There's no sense to be found here. DS is literally a perk the killer has to deliberately play into to give it value, and it only works once per game.
We're just seeing the doom posting from people who don't want to have to think about literally anything during gameplay. They're afraid they're going to blunder into a perk and maybe, possibly have consequences for just mindlessly tunneling the first survivor they found. The horror.
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NGL, them taking 2 seconds from adrenaline as a compensation nerf to give +2s back to DS wasn't on my bingo card.
Personally I don't like the idea that an end game perk can give no value. Imagine the salt if, say, NOED just didn't work on survivors who were touching a gen when the gates became powered.
The not waking up against Freddy change is good, been a long time coming.
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DS is one of the most restricted perks in the entire game. You get, at most, 2 opportunities to use it, if everything goes well, and as soon as it triggers it's gone for the match, whether or worked or not. You only get 60s to use it after unhook, and you can't do anything to personally progress the game without losing it. It also disappears in end game.
For all of that, if it does go off, you get a single, 3s stun on the killer... Of which you are also animation locked (stunned) yourself for about 1.4 seconds of that.
The distance you get is a literal joke against most of the killer roster, and saying you can go down and use it strategically at a pallet or tile is, at best, also saying this perk is only useful if map RNG allows it. You know, map RNG: one of their biggest complaints the game has ever had.
Current DS is not for distance or anti tunnel, it's for resetting exhaustion once per game. It's a bad perk right now.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3685723#Comment_3685723
What’s unhelpful is using inexperienced players and bad teammates as a justification for nerfing killer. They should learn the game
I agree it's unhelpful.
Unfortunately, crying, screaming, and having tantrums rather than improving your own gameplay has been the core of the killer guidebook for at least the past two years. Equally unfortunately, it's been insanely effective at nerfing survivor perks, base kit mechanics, items and add-ons, and even most maps at this point.
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@D3spair said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683987#Comment_3683987
Legion having Survivors mend for 20 minutes straight is fun then?
Skull Merchant and Knight 3 Genning to stall the game 4ever is better than facing a Billy that knows how to curve?
A) that's not what he said at all.
B) 'well-rounded' survivor gameplay is what a lot of people consider to be the ideal to strive for: getting to do a variety of gens, chase, unhooking, recovery, and maybe even using some perks in there for even more options.
You're arguing that the options currently are get chased until you go back to lobby, suffer for 20+ minutes while the killer chooses to hold the game hostage, or stare at a gen progress bar until you escape or die hopelessly are the only options here.
That's exactly the problem with current survivor gameplay. Killers are so focused on 'winning' that even a 4k isn't enough anymore, it's about 'winning harder' with a 4k *at 3 or more gens left or it doesn't really count*. And that's the balance the devs are providing, zero fun gameplay, just how easy can we make it for killers.
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This perk is so bad, it's like it was designed by a council of 'forum killers' specifically so the devs wouldn't have to hear any whining this chapter about 'overpowered survivor perks'.
It literally is the answer to the question: 'what if corrupt intervention also made a survivor permanently broken?'
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This post is largely why 'perks should help lower tier killers more' is largely a joke.
Corrupt is a perk you get more value from when playing those 'low tier' killers specifically.
And then the only thing some people want apparently boils down to 'why is nurse punished for getting a down 20 seconds into the match?'
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@GeneralSkien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682275#Comment_3682275
Once you know the killer has it, you can use the speed boost to go to a zone with a good amount of windows, by the time the killer catches up, dissolution is gone. 25 sounds like alot, but 20 seconds is absurdly short.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682477#Comment_3682477
The idea of the scream isn't to hinder the survivors, but rather give Experienced Solo Que survivors, a slight warning that the killer has it, while allowing the killer to get value from it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682525#Comment_3682525
Its like if Spirit Fury has a warning. If it did it would be absolutely useless as everyone would pre drop. The counter for dissolution, is to wait out the timer, which is very short, and very difficult to get value from since you can just hold "w" and ignore the entire perk. Even Killer, like deathslinger, and wraith which are really good at zoning struggle to activate it due to the warning.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682537#Comment_3682537
I meant to say 25 amound all levels, I worded it incorrectly, only the buffer changes per level.
I've said this a dozen times or more since this perk came out, the reason this perk has a warning is a) because it's a debuff and b) it doesn't require that the survivor who triggered it is the one who is affected by it.
A survivor stepping in a trap on the other side of the map triggers the debuff on the survivor in the terror radius.
Removing the warning breaks a huge fundamental of any game design: if the player has to simply guess if the effect was a 'bug' or a 'feature', because of their own actions, then your design is #########.
Using spirit fury (a buff) isn't even comparable here. A comparable question to ask is: would you like boil over to also not have a warning icon?
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682518#Comment_3682518
I get it that stacking 4 gen slowdown perks is really sweaty and mean, but that part about "Eruption-levels of absurdity" robs your comment of all credibility. You sound like you were around the Eruption-meta time, so have you forgotten how it was back then? Such claims are just utterly rediculous.
Standing next to a gen you can't actually work on for about 30 seconds while you contemplate life sounds exactly like Eruption meta.
The fact that I could heal or open a chest is literally meaningless when by my own free choice and will I would be doing the gen. The only reason I'm not doing that is the killer's perk.
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@Unimatrix00 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680065#Comment_3680065
Sorry, but what is the anti gen rush mechanic?
It's been there for years.
There's a base kit slowdown of 15% per additional survivor when they group up on gens, specifically to prevent 4 survivors from completing a gen at 4 charges per second. That would be a gen in 22.5 seconds with no other modifiers than just having 4 people on it.
Because of this mechanic, gens are slower and less efficient than splitting up one person to a gen.
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AFC is about as effective as the anti gen rush mechanic. Both basically just teach people to play even more efficiently and make the respective problem worse.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3679038#Comment_3679038
lol fair, I meant pressure survivors - it's late and I'm tired.
I've been running SiS as survivor. That heal is incredibly fast. Only takes a few seconds then I'm back on my feet. Even without any medkit help, it is extremely fast. Maybe it's bugged?
It's not 'a few seconds'.
The perk takes about 22.8 seconds just for the heal, and that doesn't include any travel time to or from the basement.
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@Rogue11 said:
Perhaps if being hooked first weren't a 70% chance of having a completely miserable experience being proxy camped and tunneled out of the match at 4 gens and dying with 5-8k points, survivors would be more likely to not give up early.
This, so much this.
Make the core gameplay fun and people will want to play it. As it is right now, most games are decided quickly and people realize that 'go next' is the best play.
This is just a terrible symptom of the gameplay, and I fear it's not going to be addressed, but only get worse.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677592#Comment_3677592
They do negatively affect the killer more than help though.
Unnerving Presence makes more skill checks, which for good survivors means more Great skill checks and faster gens. It does the opposite of what it was designed too and is an detriment to use against any decent survivor outside of impossible skill check Doctor.
And Predator makes it harder to track survivors unless you are right on top of them. Because it makes them spawn super close together, you can't see them from a distance because they won't spawn on walls or obstacles as often. I think anyone who has ever used Predator can say that it's harder to track with it.
You're misunderstanding a subtle difference here. I'm describing perks where you want (or in some cases feel like you need) the primary effect, but there's a secondary effect that is debuffing you actively.
What you're describing is that you didn't actually want the primary effect of that perk. That makes it a bad perk, and you can just not equip it.
With something like calm spirit, there's no other way in the entire game to avoid random screams. The only way is to take that one perk, so some players will actively want that effect. The perk would be better if it didn't have an unnecessary extra line about totems at all.
What you're saying is you don't want any part of the perk, and it would be better if it was a different perk.
The better killer example I should've thought of is dying light. Killers feel they desperately need slowdown as much as possible, and the primary effect of dying light is essentially free, permanent, unregressable slowdown. That's insanely appealing. The only reason this perk isn't meta, is the *downside* that the obsession is immune to the slowdown and is actively buffed for healing and unhooking. Remove that downside and the perk usage would skyrocket.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
Both sides have garbage perks. No one runs Up the Ante or Pharmacy for a reason.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676577#Comment_3676577
Predator? Also Unnerving Presence on every killer except Doctor.
I'm not going to say that unnerving or predator are good perks, because they aren't. But his point is that some perks come with a negative downside that actively debuffs the user.
Take calm spirit: they 'buffed' it to make opening chests and totem cleansing quiet, but then added a debuff for cleansing totems a lot slower. Why? No one asked for that interaction, it didn't need it, and having the debuff arguably made the perk worse for literally no reason. Sometimes critically worse, during the 'pinhead stands on the box' meta, where this *survivor* perk made it impossible to counter the hexes.
The only perk I can think of that does this for killer is rapid brutality removes bloodlust.
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Let's say you wanted to deliberately do a gen inefficiently.
Before this update, you bring just potential energy, use it on cooldown, and immediately dump the charges into the gen you're already on. So you're using the perk wrong.
It's takes 8 seconds to start, then 30 seconds to store 20 charges, which get dumped into the gen. So 38 seconds for 28 charges. Three rounds of that is 114 seconds and the gen has 84 charges (the last 6 charges take 6 seconds and you can't use PE again).
So exactly 120 seconds for 90 charges and the gen is complete.
You're using a perk wrong, and still aren't broken for the rest of the trial, and if you do get interrupted, while it sucks and could even lose your stored charges, you still have a gen partially done.
Weaving spiders is far, far worse than that. This perk is hilariously bad.
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Even more reason to spend 90 seconds on a gen for guaranteed, unregressable 90 charges instead of 120 seconds for maybe, possibly 70 charges.
This is a killer perk, plain and simple. It should never be used. If you are trying to adept just equip it and ignore that it exists.
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I've been saying this since 6.1 basically. Match the hook stage timer to gen speeds.
It's the easiest, least abusable way to do literally anything to combat tunneling and camping. It doesn't do much, admittedly, but it forces a killer to decide to actively give up gens to commit to that one survivor.
I get that 'hanging on hook longer' isn't exactly gameplay, but neither is getting hard tunneled or playing m1 simulator on a gen.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675166#Comment_3675166
Where did I say only killers should be allowed to do that? It's a simple action and reaction. Survivors play with auto pilot so I compensate them by tunneling.
No.
We already have tons of proof that tunneling is the root cause here, not a reaction to anything.
When gen kick meta dragged out games for 30+ minutes killers tunneled more.
When survivors stop doing normal gameplay to throw snowballs during an event killers tunnel more.
When the devs delete gen rushing entirely during an LTM and give the killer free stealth, killers tunnel more.
Tunneling is base kit for killers, and only takes exactly one player to decide to play that way. The only response survivors have is to have high levels of coordination and gen rush, and neither of those is base kit in this game. It requires lots of perks, items, and most often voice comms.
If you want to play that way, that's your choice, but you aren't 'reacting' to anything. Tunneling is the cause here, not the effect.
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@Brimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675147#Comment_3675147
Well in current survivor meta where you're just allowed to pre drop W with windows + exhaustion and generous maps.... Not much a killer can do if they want a chance at winning.
So your argument is that only killers should be allowed to play like it's a comp tournament.
Since the comp DbD scene is largely tunnel and camp vs gen rush, pre drop, run to comp corner.
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@mizark3 said:
The main flaw I've heard from opponents to this type of system is something along the lines of "this comes from distrusting BHVR to create balanced perks to begin with, why do you think they would rate the perks at the correct rating?"
I like the idea personally, but that BHVR balance issue definitely is understandable looking at their track record.
It would be possible if they don't manually weigh the perks.
If you want to weight perks and avoid a hard meta, then you weigh the perks by an algorithm based on popularity and let the community decide, indirectly.
Whatever is meta will be weighted the heaviest, and it would prevent things like 4x S+ tier perks in one build.
Still not a perfect system, and likely too much effort to rework the entire perk system.
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BHVR: No, you can't touch player autonomy. If the killer wants to tunnel one survivor to death every game they should be able to. We'll nerf anti tunnel and make it either not stack or be useless by itself to maintain this.
Also BHVR: You want to work on a gen? Screw you, stand here afk and think about doing something else. When people complain enough that gen kick meta gets nerfed, we'll just force survivors to stand around in another form. All of these perks stack at all times and synergize with the strongest killer powers.
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@Beatricks said:
I mean they nerfed DS and designated OTR as the "anti-tunneling" perk after saying they wanted to make it so that killers felt less inclined to tunnel so...
TBF, OTR would probably be ok with anti tunnel... Except they also nerfed endurance stacking around that same time. Someone saw a clip of two survivors throwing a game to take 3 protection hits with endurance and listened to outcry. Even though that clip was already 2 people dead at 3 gens.
If BT ignored the hit (like MoM) instead of endurance, then OTR could actually do something. Instead, the 'counter play' doesn't even require the killer to count to 10. It's just 'mindlessly hit the guy off hook and chase until he's dead'. Which, TBH, is exactly what some people were hoping for with an anti tunnel mechanic.
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Looking forward to the pig changes, they essentially made my 2 qol add-ons base kit in this patch. Removal of jigsaw auras isn't a big deal, but then again I'm also in the camp that the hat change they tested was fine too. If you're using the hats for guaranteed kills instead of slowdown, that's clearly not how they intend it to be used.
Huntress changes honestly feel like someone missed a memo. This feels like 'well, go ahead and buff huntress to make her better against MfT', but the guy working on the huntress part didn't get told MfT was deleted from the game.
Invocations could be cool in concept, maybe, but the base mechanic is hilariously bad. Two minutes of being afk in the basement is far too restrictive on its own, let alone the permanently broken state at the end. If this is the base line for invocations, they're just dead on arrival. They'll be used for adept only, and even then you shouldn't try to activate the perk, just equip it and pretend it's an empty slot.
(Which doesn't even touch on the fact that for all that investment, weaving spiders now exactly undoes the base kit nerf to gen speed from 6.1 that added those 10 charges to begin with)
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I don't particularly care about the exact killer, but it's how the match plays. For me, if the core gameplay is fun, I don't really care if I die or even if we lose as a team.
Maybe that's some chases with some back and forth, maybe it's funny moments with the killer, maybe it's getting some value out of your meme blast mine build once in 20 games. And, most importantly, I'd like to think that that gameplay can be fun for the killer as well. That's what I'm looking for whenever I play killer, but I have much more control over the 'fun' of the game that way.
But fun gameplay isn't really a part of the game anymore. It's all about 'winning' for most killers now, so you either get tunneled out immediately, or you're playing gen repair simulator and hoping that your teammate can last long enough to have a chance. That's not the kind of gameplay I'm interested in.
And you see this most often anytime there's an event. Survivors stop doing gens to throw snowballs, or the devs delete gen rush from the game and give killers free stealth? Oh boy, looks like it's time to tunnel for free wins ladies and gents. The fun gameplay is more or less dead anymore, or so rare it might as well be.
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@Pulsar said:
DS is literally one of the only perks that you, as a Killer, directly control. If you don't tunnel, they don't proc it.
Likewise, DS is pitiful right now. It is not worth a slot and tunneling is at an all-time high. Personally, I don't want them to buff DS and band-aid fix tunneling AGAIN. I'd rather them adjust the base-game to completely kill off tunneling by making it inefficient.
I'd much prefer they make tunnelling less efficient as well, but given that it takes so long to make microscopic changes to things it's unlikely to ever happen.
I get that it doesn't fix much, but a bare minimum 'match hook timer to gen speed' should've been done years ago to make both tunneling and camping less efficient. A 90 second hook state can't be weaponized either, but they haven't done that. (I get that hanging on hook isn't exactly gameplay either, but there's still a bigger problem at play here)
Given that the devs have spent a ton of effort in the past year or so to cut down on killers obsessing over literal furniture (hooked survivors and 3 gens) I feel like they are perfectly happy with tunneling in its current state; simply because the killer is actually chasing a survivor and not obsessing over props with no autonomy. The fact that it's the same survivor repeatedly doesn't even factor into it for them.
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According to nightlight, blood rush has a whopping 0.16% usage rate, which is 16th from the bottom, and below a *completely empty loadout*.
Apparently, a perk that requires you to be healthy (so is hard countered by tunneling) is literally a waste of a perk slot. The only value is when you're doing adept, because it's mandatory. Who could've seen that coming?
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So a 50-60 second chase, was you put it, is not good. Given that you also need to locate a survivor to even start chase, then down, and hook the survivor at the end you're looking at around 90 seconds between game start and first hook state.
What do you think the other 3 survivors are supposed to do during this 90 second window? Why is there some killer expectation that survivors should be forced to be afk at any point in the game? (It's partially the metas of Eruption and now GE where perks just force survivors to be afk, tbh)
There is no way, no perk, no strategy, no item or add-on that allows survivors to snowball their objective later in the game. None. If they finish any gens early, the remaining gens are always harder to complete after the killer builds pressure (hooks, downs, or even injuries), when the map resources are being used up by the match going longer, and when the playable area gets smaller with fewer gens to choose from. It's completely impossible for survivors to go from 0 gen progress to all gens finished in a 60 second window.
The killer, on the other hand, can snowball from 0 objective progress (4 healthy survivors) to a 4k in a matter of seconds, especially with perks or their power helping them, and this can happen at any point in the game. Especially with perks like NOED, it can even happen after all the gens are *done* (how many gens get done when the survivors are all dead? It's zero, the answer is zero). One series of mistakes can lead to a 0 hook match being 4 slugs on the ground, or just outright killing survivors without hooks in some cases.
Doing gens is the literal only response to tunneling. It's all survivors can do to try and win, and avoiding the objective (or expecting them to) is throwing the game.
Tunneling is not a response to 'gen rushing' and never has been, it's an excuse. It's specifically an excuse by a large number of killers who have used every advantage possible to inflate their MMR to the point that they are up against survivors who are better at the game than they are.
'Gen rush' is the only response you can possibly have to tunneling. By the time you wait and see if the killer is tunneling after first hook it's too late to start working on gens, the games over at that point. It's also not 'rushing' if they start on gens late.
You can always, always switch to tunneling as killer. At any point.
Tunneling isn't a response to gen rushing. It's certainly not the only reason killers tunnel (it's easy and efficient, hard to counter, they feel like ruining someone's match, or they aren't skilled enough at the game to play any other way). Gen rushing is the only play against tunneling.
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@Pepsidot said:
How do you REALLY stop killers from tunneling though? Any protection or measures you give them would surely be used against killers, right? Just like how OTR, DS and even the built in BT can be.
And a BIG unpopular opinion, but I think if tunneling was disincentivized to the point of no longer being viable, DBD would be more boring for it.
The idea the killer CAN tunnel you out and you have to play well to survive (or have your team "win") is fun, tense, dramatic. If for example the killer just... leaves you to satisfy a x hook win condition, that'd be boring, right? Sure, you might end up surviving, but so what? The killer LET YOU survive for their win condition, you didn't escape from skill or from teamwork.
I think the real issue as usual is matchmaking, as well as the solo queue and SWF coordination/information disparity. These both need to be improved further.
Bare minimum would be to put DS back to 5 second stun. They should also have increased the hook timer to 90 seconds to combat tunneling and camping both, to make killers choose between giving up gens to focus one person out of the game.
Neither of those changes does anything whatsoever of the killer isn't tunneling, and can't be 'weaponized'. Go patrol gens, interrupt gen progress and chase someone else. You know, progress the game instead of just waiting for an unhook to chase that one guy you happened to find first.
ETA: The current only play against tunneling is to gen rush. That's it, that's the entirely of 'playing well' for 3/4 of the survivor team during a hard tunneling killer match.