AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
About
- Username
- AmpersandUnderscore
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
A 3% haste bonus is hard countered by bloodlust 1 (5% base kit for every killer, stacks up to 15%) as well as nearly every single killer power in the game.
-
@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445527#Comment_3445527
every statement here is wrong but, nearly every single killer power? IS ONESHOT?? ok disregarding that, among the mentioned killers only huntress has iri head, slinger can't proc iri coin while you are looping around a rock and trickster's oneshot needs him to m1 you.
the killer can't always keep the chase that easily when they aren't any faster than the survivor and are chasing around a tall loop they can't see over. even with bloodlust, it's solid half a minute before the killer catches up, assuming survivor never uses a pallet or window or get a body block.
I never said every killer power is one shot, that's not even a charitable reading of anything I said. There are many ways to counter a pitiful 3% movement speed bonus.
Killer powers that cancel or negate MfT include:
- Anything that hinders survivors.
- Anything that gives the killer movement speed. (Bloodlust does this for every killer)
- Anything that can take a health state from ranged.
- Any zoning ability that can force/encourage a survivor to use their movement speed to run toward a dead zone.
- And yes, any insta down will too.
Notice how this list encompasses pretty much every killer power in the game?
At a minimum, the notorious 4.4 killers tend to also be the ones who are effective from range, like huntress, trickster, slinger, and even hag in a sense. The only 4.4 'chase' killer is spirit, who also has the ability movement speed to laugh at 3% increase.
-
@NerfDHalready said:
to people saying they have a ranged attack: you do realize you can loop the most basic rock even without a pallet when you are literally at the same speed as the killer, right?
Made for this has exactly three possible outcomes:
- Made for this never activates at all, because of insta down, didn't activate by healing another, etc. No reason to complain.
- The chase after MfT activates lasts less than 15 seconds after the survivor is injured. The chase is short, no reason to complain.
- The chase after MfT activates lasts longer than 15 seconds after the survivor is injured. The killer can gain bloodlust 1 for free and catches back up because it fully negates the speed bonus. No reason to complain.
I've never seen so much complaining about a perk that is hard countered by both a base kit killer mechanic AND nearly every single killer power in the game.
-
3% movement speed is hard countered by...
The base kit ability bloodlust 1 and nearly every single killer power in the game.
-
@Orthane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444633#Comment_3444633
Yeah and it's still not worth doing almost ever. To put in perspective how bad it is, if you kick a gen and let it regress for 1 entire minute it would take a single survivor a whopping 20 seconds to repair back to where it was when kicked. And the chances of having a gen left regressing for a whole minute is basically 1/100 since all you have to do is tap it for a split second to stop the regression, and then if the killer decides to kick again you've already basically won chase, or at the very least created so much distance in that 1.8 seconds that it will take the killer about 12 seconds to catch back up to you or around 15 if it's a 4.4 killer.
Good.
The last time 'gen kick perks weren't worth running' was when we had a meta where chase was the most important part of the game.
When they made gen kick perks 'worth running' it was all killers wanted to do for up to an hour per match.
Gens aren't the killers objective. Survivors are.
-
A no mither/boil over squad was pretty miserable for maps like the old RPD library, Ormond, and dead dawg. Nothing you could really do except avoid some parts of the map once you knew.
Similar thing for double locker flashlight squads before that got nerfed. Just annoying and not much you can really do.
I'll never buy the 'doing gens is identical to tunneling survivors' bullshit. If the killer approaches a survivor on a gen, the survivor has to leave or lose a health state. If they stay, they get downed and at best they trade a hook for the gen progress. Either option is progressing the killer's objective to chase, down, and hook.
A tunneling killer can't be stopped. Survivors who want to interrupt a tunneling killer can only try and slow them down, and trade health states (or even downs) in the process. At no point is the killer ever completely stopped from tunneling because there is nothing that can override the killers autonomy in that choice.
That's completely the opposite since a survivor who chooses to stay at a pressured gen gets downed and their autonomy is taken away.
The tunneling killer will eventually get the survivor. And any other survivors attempting to stop that just means they aren't doing gens. There's literally no way, ever, within the game mechanics to even interfere with the killer tunneling while still progressing the survivor objective. You either ignore the killer and just try to escape as fast as possible, or are forced to give the killer additional advantage by ignoring gens.
-
Bloodlust is base kit for literally every killer without even taking a perk slot. Bloodlust 1 is 5% move speed, which is more than enough to overcome the 3% from MfT and then some.
Either this perk isn't even active for 15 seconds, and you won't notice it... Or you gain BL 1 and the perk automatically counters itself.
This is 100% a non issue.
-
It'll be exactly like BT was. It'll get complained about until it launches, then suddenly every killer realizes they can actually count to 10.
This is the same thing just with 15m range instead of a timer.
-
BNP could probably use a rework, but I think it's like blight's add-ons:
Most people can see there's a pretty obvious difference in power level compared to other items/killers, but BHVR is unlikely to ever make any changes to any of them.
It's rather see BNP 'lock in' gen progress instead and still be single use and consumed. So a gen that is above 50% can get the BNP and then can't be regressed below 50% by any means.
-
@nars said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3441654#Comment_3441654
Only self healing got nerfed, altruism is stil fine. Why do ppl keep acting like the ptb went through-
Because they did implement several nerfs from that ptb.
The medkit nerfs went live, the add-on changes too, self healing was removed from circle, and penalties were added so that most forms of self healing were still hit by the extra healing time.
They realized the global +8 seconds to base healing across the board had far too many secondary consequences (like bleed out recovery) and didn't do that directly. They just targeted self healing with that part instead with penalties.
-
@gnehehe said:
From a Skullmerchant to a Demogorgon/Wesker scale, I would say that this midchaper should be around a Plague level 😊
I can't tell if this is 'middle of the road' or if you're implying it 'makes you want to vomit just from touching it'. :)
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3441246#Comment_3441246
Killers are the ones setting the time limit and putting the pressure on, my dude. Survivors just can't afford to flop around and waste time anymore.
Killers literally spent the strongest meta we've seen in years reinforcing 'do gens or die'' to survivors and are suddenly *shocked Pikachu face* that survivors don't just screw around opening chests anymore.
-
@MrPeanutbutter said:
Even if OP was exaggerating and it was 4 minutes instead of 2 minutes - ######### are you supposed to do? The usual “just patrol gens” and “git gud” advice probably isn’t going to help much here.
Impossible to say without any information about the game.
Ideally a video, so we can see an actual match timer, play style, perks, and strategy. Even an end game screenshot would be more information than what we have now.
-
@Frogsplosion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3440074#Comment_3440074
Yeah that logic doesn't track at all, both killers and survivors have one single objective so that argument doesn't really work in your favor there.
Except the game is designed for the killer to apply pressure on survivors by presence and threat of taking a health state. That pressure forces survivors to choose between avoiding damage and their objective.
The only way survivors can 'pressure' the killer is by being near the downed survivor for a save by ignoring gens. They're temporarily ignoring their objective to interfere with a pickup/hook, often with the cost of taking damage.
There's literally no way for survivors to 'chase' the killer away from a hook that they're camping, or force the killer to switch targets from tunneling. The killer can, by mere presence, make survivors stop doing their objective.
Unless you're actually arguing that survivors should be able to damage the killer...
-
Looks like somebody wanted BP.
I don't know the last time I've seen three survivors all spawn in main building like that before.
It's really a shame the game engine doesn't support a replay system. It would be an interesting curiosity to see different POV's for something like this.
-
@mustdogen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3440082#Comment_3440082
So...... what you said is that we have less tunnel and camping now than 6.1.0?
Read it again.
Killers were given buffed gen kick perks (that ended up being so good they were the oppressive gen kick meta for 8 months).
Killers were given universal base kit buffs in 6.1. Survivors received an extra 10 seconds to every gen in the game and reduced sprint on hit nerfs.
Killers increased tunneling harder, despite these changes.
The carrot. Doesn't. Work. And it won't until camping and tunneling are reduced in efficiency. Until that happens, anything that even resembles a buff will be used to camp and tunnel more effectively.
-
Thank you for posting, I usually avoid Twitter so I wouldn't have seen this.
Incredibly sad news. I hope his remaining time he can spend surrounded by loved ones.
-
@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438376#Comment_3438376
6.1.0:
KILLER PERKS
- Barbecue and Chili
- Removed Bloodpoint bonus
- Corrupt Intervention
- Added: Corrupt Intervention deactivates when any Survivor enters the dying state.
- Note: The perk still deactivates after 2 minutes if no Survivor has entered the dying state.
- Coulrophobia
- Added: Healing Skill Checks move 50% faster for Survivors under the effect of this perk.
- Hex: No One Escapes Death
- Eruption
- Increased Generator reduction when a Survivor enters the dying state to 10% (was 6%)
- Increased duration of Incapacitated status effect to 15/20/25 seconds (was 12/14/16 seconds)
- Dark Devotion
- Now triggers when a Survivor loses a health state by any means (was just basic attacks)
- Added: Once the Hex's effect is revealed to the Survivors, its Hex Totem's aura is shown to the Survivors at a range of 4 meters. This range increases steadily over the next 30 seconds to 24 meters.
- Pop Goes the Weasel
- Changed regression to be 20% of current progress (was 25% of total)
- Note: This is calculated after the new baseline regression when kicking a generator.
- Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain
- Added: After Overcharge is applied to a generator, its regression speed increases from 75% of normal to 200% of normal over the next 30 seconds.
- Overcharge
- Monstrous Shrine
- Reworked - This perk is now Scourge Hook: Monstrous Shrine
- Scourge Hooks
- grant 10/15/20% faster Entity progression if the Killer is not within 24 meters. Basement hooks count as Scourge Hooks. T
- Lethal Pursuer
- Added: Any time a Survivor's aura is shown for a period of time, its duration is increased by 2 seconds.
- Note: The new effect applies to the duration of the normal Lethal Pursuer effect, which means it effectively reveals survivors for 9/10/11 seconds at the start of the match.
- Knock Out
- Added: Recovery speed is reduced by 25% for Survivors under the effect of this perk.
- Jolt
- Removed the cooldown
- Hex: Ruin
- Added: Once any Survivor is killed by any means, the Hex: Ruin Totem reverts to a Dull Totem.
- While a generator is not being repaired by a Survivor, it will immediately and automatically regress repair progress at 50%/75%/100% of the normal regression speed.
- Increased Healing and Repairing speed penalty to 10/13/16% (was 7/8/9%)
- Tinkerer
- Added: This effect can only be triggered once on each generator.
- Thanatophobia
- Increased individual penalties for repairing, sabotaging, and Totem cleansing to 4.5/5/5.5% (was 4/4.5/5%)
- Increased maximum penalty to 18/20/22% (was 16/18/20%)
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance
- Removed scream effect on Survivors repairing the exploding generator, generator will spark to show regression
6.1.0 completely nuked the existing slowdown meta.
Strange then, how this patch also caused the CoBruption meta.
CoB, Eruption, and Overcharge weren't changed after 6.1 until the recent nerfs, nearly 10 months later. Eruption was even bugfixed to be buffed again after 6.1. so are you crediting that 8 months time to nowhere to hide? An aura perk?
People were still learning the new balance to the entire game. 6.1 had several perks bubble back up after a couple of months after the 'meta shift' settled down. (I'm sure you remember dead hard coming back to life, for example)
And about that same amount of time later people realized that the gen kick perks were good. Too good. And there we got the gen kick meta.
So how exactly is regression dead in that patch when gen kick meta was around for about 8 months?
Edit: spelling
- Barbecue and Chili
-
@mustdogen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438325#Comment_3438325
I don't know why you keep saying about 6.1.0 buff.
The buff from 6.1.0 is totally not enough to cover the perks nerf if you don't know.
And the perks nerf is even begin in the same patches in 6.1.0 and keep going with every single patch.
Read the patch notes.
Killer before 6.1.0 actually stronger than now.
Start at the beginning of the conversation.
He was saying specifically those buffs are worthless, and we're taking about exactly, and only that.
Edit: at least, *I* an only taking about those base kit buffs. That 'whataboutery' is attempting to talk about literally anything else.
You're responding to the end of a chain you haven't read entirely.
-
@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435492#Comment_3435492
why do that when survivors got some new busted perks on this coming update especially scavenger ^_^ which i will totally abuse since i play both sides that is why i see the difference more clearly
Why change the subject?
The point was that you said the base kit buffs were worthless. No perk or patch alters the value of those global, always on buffs killers received.
Killers are absolutely terrified of nerfs. You know, for certain, that those 6.1 buffs have value and you can't even admit that. You're grasping at everything else in existence rather than even saying those words: the base kit buffs have value.
You want them to stay, while simultaneously downplaying it like killers have never received a buff in the history of DBD.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3437836#Comment_3437836
Here’s the issue. The chase for killers needs to be quick in order to win. So you cannot really enjoy the chase. Because enjoying the chase is counterintuitive.
Survivors want long chases because it’s fun and because it means they will win the game. Killers can have long chases but they will not win the game if they do. This is a fundamental dilemma in the game. Long chases are too punishing for killers to be able to enjoy them.
That's kinda my point tho. The chase, no matter how long, doesn't matter in this case. The winning is the only part that you or they are saying is fun.
So go play gen kick simulator 2023 as a PvE game and enjoy 100% win rate.
Edit: autocorrect
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3437694#Comment_3437694
"Dont forget that killers actually need to be having fun to continue playing. Most of the changes over the game's lifespan focus on the idea of survivors having fun with little thought for the killer. Things are fine if you play one of the top 5 killers but everything else kinda sucks."
Exactly.
This is the point I was trying to make @jesterkind with respect to the evolution of the core gameplay from stealth to pursuit.
The "chase" elongation and focus might be great for Survivors and their entertainment, but it simply isn't fun for Killers, and BHVR has done nothing to attempt to make it more entertaining for Killers.
- How many times am I supposed to circle the same car in Haddonfield before it's reasonable to complain?
- How many times am I supposed to chase the same Survivor up that stupid tractor?
Does anyone really believe this is "fun"? There is no "mindgame" here, they can clearly see if I go right or left, and the circle is large enough that it will take awhile to catch them. It's boring and frustrating.
I understand "the chase" is the fun part of DBD for Survivors, and the desire to have them run longer for those players, but it really isn't particularly fun for Killers. ESPECIALLY when every moment in chase is reducing the Killer's chance of success, as generators are flying. Taking the original game and simply adding longer/more frequent chases isn't sufficient. The "hunt" was a big part of the enjoyment for Killer. Now the Survivors just run straight up to you. What is supposed to have taken it's place in the game's evolution?
I used to only play Survivor for dailies/event goals, but now I play it to relax.
The 'chase' is the pvp part of the 1v4 PvP game. If you aren't playing to enjoy the chase, what are you playing for?
Kicking gens? Holding a 3 gen for an hour?
You don't want to mind game at a loop, or have the survivor hold w away from that loop either. That basically leaves griefing as the 'fun' part.
I'm genuinely curious why someone would insist on playing a pvp game if you are actively saying the pvp part isn't fun in any capacity.
-
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3437310#Comment_3437310
They also changed Nurse, Wraith, Hag too with this patch. No longer survivor items will counter any killer's power.
I would not call this buff, it was just design change.
Removing counter play is absolutely a buff. How big of a buff is subject to opinion, and dependent on the killer.
I'd absolutely put the artist and wraith buff as better than the ones for hag or nurse. Mostly because the flashlight was much more commonly used against crows and wraith. Nurse was very situational, and hag is more neutral because of the new 'wiping' replacement.
-
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Except Artist, others can get buffs. But seriously when we will buff killers like Trapper, Sadako, Pig etc
They literally just removed the ability to burn crows with flashlights...
-
@malloymk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3437214#Comment_3437214
You can still work to fix the three gen problem in the meantime, but still no game of DBD needs to last more than 20 minutes. F13 had the right idea with the 20 minute time limit.
Also providing a 20 minute time limit forces killers to try to kill rather than holding a three gen.
Forcing a shorter match will only make more people 3 gen. Some people won't do that strat right now because it could lead to excessively long matches, and even the killer doesn't want to bother.
If you told people 'hey, you know that easy 4k strat? It's at most 20 minutes now.' you will absolutely get more people doing it.
This also runs the risk of reducing the match timer so much that 'excessively avoiding your objective' has no meaning, so literally anything that involves deliberately wasting time might not be even bannable anymore. That's a whole problem you don't want to invite without serious consideration.
-
@Frogsplosion said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3436971#Comment_3436971
pretty clear survivors desperately need a second critical victory objective besides just slamming gens.
Yeah it would be really great if they added something to totems.
Like, a killer perk that could incentivize the survivors to break the totem instead of doing gens.
Or maybe a survivor perk that allows them to interact with a totem to provide a short range buff.
That sounds pretty cool. It would really be neat if there were perks like that to encourage survivors to do totems.
-
Because whether or not it's 100% true, the community perception is that complaining early, loudly, and as often as humanly possible gets things nerfed before they go live.
-
@Mattie_MayhemOG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3436101#Comment_3436101
It does, which was my main grip with the change in the first place but now that the accessibility update is in game should be time to fix the stealth killer nerf.
You need line of sight for spine chill to light up against a killer with no terror radius.
If the killer can physically see the survivor, the survivor can presumably also see the killer.
This is miles better than the old version where the perk would light up any time the killer was looking in the general direction of the survivor, from across the map and through 2 entire jungle gyms.
I used to have to approach a gen sideways from across the map as pig to 'counter play' spine chill. This version is infinitely better.
-
@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435253#Comment_3435253
10 seconds to gens really isnt that much, mini pop on kick still regresses four times slower than a survivor just tapping it, tier 1 brutal strength which doesn't really make chases any shorter ( i would argue the lessened sprint burst after a hit actually helps out more), 2 stacks of stbfl only really helps if stbfl is also used in the match.
ds can still be used to get to a safe loop, dead hard still works after an unhook (you are just guaranteed a quick first chase), circle of healing i will agree with
tunneling once again with no hit detection after the unhook would make it easier than a killer either counting to 10 or hitting them with a faster killer to force deep wounds and take away dead hard and tunnel the survivor again
camping once again give the killer a reason to go after other survivors a grim embrace effect or even a thanataphobia slowdown
Then delete them all.
I'm so tired of hearing 'but all these base kit buffs are so small'. Their removal is apparently 'trivial' as well.
Survivors would welcome the nerfs to killers, and killers should be wanting some meaningful buffs in their place.
If you truly think these do nothing and have no impact, every player on both sides should be screaming for their removal immediately.
-
Don't worry, soon enough the replacement bot will 3 gen for the killer. Won't that be exciting and fun to deal with.
-
@miniwengsel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435253#Comment_3435253
Yes Dh got nerfed and at the same patch genregression got nuked. Killers got basekit buffes Survivors got base BT and Stackout Hyperfocus were very popular so instead of +10 Seconds there were -40 Seconds. CoH removed Selfheal, but healing numbers got doubled. DS got nerfed while OTR got a massiv buff.
So what was the reson for Tunneling and camping. I think maybe the genrush, the nuked KILLER meta, the bad design of maps and not the "buffes"
People tunnel because removing a survivor is the most efficient way to win the game.
During the Eruption meta killers literally had the ability to force survivors to stand afk for 26 seconds at a time.
Killers used that to tunnel and camp for easier wins.
I do not believe for a single second that even if devs nerfed gen speeds to 5 minutes per generator that tunneling would do anything other than get stronger. If the 'best, most efficient strategy' gets buffed, why would people stop using it for a single second?
The game revolves entirely, 100% around how killers decide to play. If a killer wants to try and get ready wins with tunneling and camping it will work, for quite some time, while they decimate uncoordinated teams like the nearly 60% of survivors who play solo q.
The strategy works until they hit their peak because of actual skill level, which varies. But eventually for almost all killers, they will hit that peak where camping and tunneling literally cannot carry them to victory further. The killer has won which games that their MMR is putting them against survivors who are coordinated, knowledgeable, or just better loopers so that every game becomes a sweat fest. But MMR isn't a deterrent, killers just hit that ceiling and clamor for buffs or survivor nerfs.
(And in one unique circumstance we have one killer who has the skill to end chases with blight to become literally unbeatable with that strategy.)
And all of that is because camping and tunneling are simply too strong for the level of effort required. You simply can't buff killers anymore without first addressing the efficiency of tunneling and camping.
-
We have carrots galore in the past year. 6.1 gave 10 seconds to gens, mini pop on kick, tier 1 brutal strength, 2 permanent stacks of stbfl, entirely free as base kit buffs.
Dead Hard got nerfed twice, DS got deleted, circle of healing is all but gone too.
Killers used every single one of those buffs to camp, tunnel, and hold 3 gens for nearly a year.
Carrots don't work without directly making camping and tunneling less efficient in some way, plain and simple.
-
What is with all of these post that want to punish survivors for the killer tunneling?
At the most basic level, what is the plan if/when killers keep tunneling if something like this were ever implemented? You better stop tunneling, cause if you don't, we'll nerf your opponent even harder?
Who on earth would ever slow down in tunneling if that was the case? It's literally just begging for trouble and abuse.
Even with this system, it's still worth removing a player from the game as fast as possible. A survivor with 1 hook has 10% reduction in speed, 2 hooks is 20%, and 3 hooks is 100% reduction in speed. There's literally no way to beat that slowdown in 3 total hooks.
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3435093#Comment_3435093
"If survivors are nearby, the killer's smartest play is to camp, but the mechanic affects them, which is completely and irrevocably unacceptable."
No, it isn't. You may not like it, but that's of no concern. You're still camping, and that is what the system is set up to punish.
Your concern is that a survivor will be able to get the unhook. That's your reason to label the option of chasing a survivor a 'lose'. That is what the system is adressing. You are not supposed to indefinitely stall an unhook.
The system works as intended. Take the L on the micro and take the W on the macro. Get over your pathological fear of survivors getting to play the game.
See, if you leave the hook you might have to chase one of the other two survivors off of gens, so there's only one person on gens at that point and that's...
Ooooh, that slows down generator repair. Wow, it's almost like that's how the game was played before gen kick meta.
/Sarcasm
Edit: typos
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434259#Comment_3434259
That is still a Killer shortage, is it not?
Aren't the Killer players getting home at the same time?
We agree the majority of players play in the evening due to work, correct?
That's still a shortage of Killers.
The best metric for this is queue times, not incentive.
I haven't seen a large number of posts complaining about long queue times in quite a while now.
But rest assured, if the 80/20 balance actually gets out of whack there will be floods of queue times complaint posts on here, Reddit, Twitter, etc. That's when you know it's a problem, and not just a regional/MMR/time of day thing.
-
@Yippiekiyah said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434484#Comment_3434484
Clearly never played killer in your life.
You should look up Tatariu on YouTube and twitch. They're a long-time, dedicated legion player.
Not just a killer main, but played legion since long before the rework.
Also plays survivor, so has a pretty good idea of how the game works on both sides...
-
Tunneling and camping are the maximum pressure on one survivor and the least amount of pressure on the other survivors you can possibly have without being literally afk.
If you do nothing but stand at a hook or wait for an unhooker (or the unhook), you dedicate your time to the 2 survivors who are already not doing gens, leaving the other 2 completely alone and free of any danger whatsoever...
What do you genuinely think the other 2 are going to do if they don't see the killer? Stand there afk waiting politely near a hook for you? They're going to do gens if they want to survive.
Leave the hook and chase a survivor who would otherwise do gens. After a year of gen kick meta, I don't think I can say this loud enough: gens aren't the killer's objective in this game, the survivors are.
-
@MSX_exe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433154#Comment_3433154
Don't you find it stupid that depending on RNG you can lose 3 gens in 1 chase or none? Because I do
Not if you consider gens a resource like pallets are for survivors.
Survivors' first chase might use zero pallets, or might use 8. Those resources buy time early but make the game riskier later on.
Gens being completed means the patrol area of the map gradually shrinks, making the contested area easier for the killer. As both types of resources are consumed, the killer benefits into the mid/late game.
This is apparently controversial, but gens are not the killers objective. Just like pallets aren't the objective of the survivors. Sure, you might be able to extend that resource and buy time in the process, but the goal of the game isn't to escape with every pallet left standing. Why would you expect to kill every survivor with no gens complete?
-
@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434095#Comment_3434095
And where did I say you couldn't hold the devs accountable for the state of the game? I know the game has issues and it's in a low-point at the moment and needs some things fixed. The fact is though that until those things get fixed we need something to deal with the rampant disconnects now, and I still think in almost every single game, a poor ai is still leagues better then losing a player completely.
Jesus Christ, I'm just explaining my thought process. I'm not trying to target or accuse you or anyone of anything implicitly or not.
Like I said, I find that stance to be completely healthy and reasonable.
The only thing you and I seem to disagree on is that the ai is an appropriate stop gap measure. I say it's absolutely not (and to be clear, this isn't saying or implying anything about anyone else's stance).
I've said my peace, and I don't expect anyone to agree with me, as I'm pretty sure I'm one of the only people concerned about the ai answer to this problem. I think it's a terrible idea, I think it's going to cause issues, and I think it's going to be a cause for complaints after it's implemented.
And at this point I'm tired of talking about it, since it's pretty clear this is the direction BHVR wants to go. Nothing I say will change that, so I'm respectfully bowing out of this conversation.
-
@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434031#Comment_3434031
I already mentioned that the ai aren't that good, and they're not. They are still far better than just losing a teammate. I don't care if they're awful at looping and go down super fast, they're still doing -something- which is more than we have now where someone DCs and it's basically as if they died.
I also mentioned that I hope they continue to improve the ai so that they're actually more competant, but until we get to that point, if we ever do, I'll still happily take an ai teammate at 5-gens than just losing a teammate altogether.
Also I don't really know what you're solution really solves. The issue with a survivor DCing isn't "oh now the killer won't get Blood Warden or BBQ value', the issue is that now the survivors have basically just lost the game and now they have to play a losing battle. Having a DCed survivor's body hang around for 30 seconds doesnt do anything to solve this.
You started off with 'how bad can it be' and I gave you at least 5 ways the bots are actively worse than a dead or missing survivor.
My biggest concern is that this will be the final answer to addressing any actual issues. Implementing bots will just mean that is the answer moving forward, and the reasons for disconnects will continue to go unresolved. This is a 'temporary band aid' fix that will become permanent, and will define how the game is played, especially if the level of disconnects stays the same (although I expect this to make it worse).
The 'body' I mentioned isn't intending to address any of those issues. I expect things like game balance to be improved, overall quality and fun of games to be a focus for the devs, and ideally reduce the disconnects by fixing things.
Adding in bots is just washing their hands of it and literally telling people that if they don't like it they can just leave and the game will take care of it. I find that to be a fairly unhealthy way to address things.
I also find it to be healthy and perfectly fair to try and hold the devs accountable for the state of the game and want them to make it better in general.
-
@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3433981#Comment_3433981
To be fair even with how bad the bots can be, it's still miles better than losing one teammate. At the very least it's someone else on a gen for some time, and someone who can waste a bit of the killer's time.
Also against stealth killers bots are actually pretty strong. They know where a stealthed Ghostface is at all times, for example.
Yes, the bots aren't great, and I do hope they get improved a lot, but having a bot is still much better than a 'dead' teammate.
Bots have several glaring issues:
- They're as reliable as nemesis zombies ai, which are notoriously bad at times. They can, and will, get stuck on objects and get caught in infinite loops. And that's without outside influence, they'll do that 100% on their own.
- Bots are programmed to always make the same actions with the same stimulus, which is particularly abusable by actual players. For example, the bots in custom games will avoid a terror radius. So killers who manipulate that fact can cause bots to pace infinitely and do nothing. Which will be extra fun when there's only one survivor and one bot left in the game. It's naive to think that someone won't find a way to exploit the ai like this.
- Bots don't think, have no idea of strategy, and can't coordinate with actual players. Good luck breaking a killers 3 gen (that your bot probably created for you) with a bot teammates that runs at the first sign of the killer.
- You say the bots have wall hacks like that's a good thing. You do realize that's a huge downside, right? Like, actual players can and will use that information against killers in an understandably frustrating way. This isn't just bad for survivors, the system is terrible for the game as a whole.
- This address none of the reasons people DC. And worse, when the first person does disconnect, the remaining survivors have no incentive to stay if a bot is 'just as good as a player' according to the devs.
A system that would be much less abusable would be to just have the survivor's body stay in the match for about 30 seconds after the player disconnects. That preserves killer perks like on hook effects, blood warden, etc. but doesn't turn an asymm pvp game into a clown fiesta.
-
Bots aren't solving any problems, they basically exist for killers to be able to trigger perks and survivors to have an additional body that the killer can ignore completely.
Bots are a terrible idea that only create more problems in the long run. It's at best a band aid and at worst a buggy, highly abusable mechanic by both sides.
Can't wait for killers who get trapped in an all-bot lobby because the survivors all quit early, or survivors who are camped to bleed out on the ground for 4 minutes while the bot is stuck, bugged, or just 'given hatch' by the killer.
Without addressing literally any of the reasons survivors are leaving games, this also removes the 'just be a good teammate' incentive to stay in a losing or lost game. If the only thing keeping some people in games is to not leave the team short handed, well... Apparently that's not an issue anymore because bots are now an officially sanctioned replacement for players.
-
It seems like all of your concerns about this, in all of your dozen or so posts on the topic, will be answered on Tuesday.
I'm not even sure what you're so stressed about in these pictures. The bar takes time to fill, and we don't know how long that is, or if it even begins filling right away. It likely will fill within 60 seconds or what's even the point.
It's entirely possible the bar doesn't fill at all until the killer has a chance to walk away. It would make sense to not start filling until about 5 seconds, since any killer can leave a 15m radius in that time.
You're going to give yourself a stroke with this topic.
-
Killers spent months winning games by playing PvE. Gen kick simulator and 3 gen defense became incredibly popular and meta ways to win games where they can decide in the lobby to just never engage with the other team unless they choose to, on their terms and in their own time.
If it allows you to win consistently and is easy, players will gravitate to doing that. It's a constant in every game that's ever existed.
-
@sanees said:
And once again you punish without encouraging alternatives
at the same time, the anty-camp system will also punish people who do not camp
Every patch since the dredge has included an information perk, a chase perk, and/or a utility perk. It's like BHVR keeps throwing out options because maybe killers can't locate survivors, maybe they can give options to reduce chase times, maybe they can give new ways for all of these 'high mmr' killers to express their 'god tier' skill to the world.
This solution only even works if the killer is within 15m of the hook. Last I checked, the biggest complaint was that 'maps are too big', so there's absolutely playable area that isn't near the hooked survivor. Shockingly, the gens being completed by survivors are somewhere else, maybe try interrupting them instead of expecting them to be afk.
I'm not sure what else BHVR can do here, since they've given killers buffs, new tools/perks, and somehow these are all being used to camp/tunnel harder. Even the (fairly clear) message of 'stop just kicking gens for an hour and chase survivors' was met with 'guess I'll just stop kicking gens and ignore half the survivor team to focus this one guy out'.
Would you like an engraved invitation to leave the hook?
-
Since you mentioned the game map, how would you prevent the killer from standing upstairs above a hook and waiting for the save attempt?
There are several areas on that exact map where you have clear line of sight of a hook through the floor holes and can drop down. It's face camping from the upper floor. What good is an anti camp mechanic if it can't address that issue?
Or standing at the top of the basement stairs on literally any map?
This solution already doesn't fix that, say, hag can just multi trap a hook and camp from anywhere in teleport range. Or huntress holding a hatchet from exactly out of range and waiting. Or any killer with any mobility or power that can cover 16m, teleport, take health states from range, or just use their power near a hook while they walk away. That's nearly every killer in the roster btw.
-
They already tried giving out carrots, by buffing chase universally for killers, giving a dozen or so new information perks, buffing a ton of underused perks, adding time to gens, and continuing to nerf every useful survivor perk after that.
Killers then spent 10 months kicking gens and using all of those buffs to camp and tunnel as hard as possible.
We already know the result of buffing killers or nerfing survivors: it's 'thanks for the patch, now tunneling is easier'. If the devs actually want to change the current 'camp and tunnel' meta, they can not simply buff killers and hope the community will change on their own. We tried that, it doesn't work.
-
As for the actual mechanic itself, we won't know until the PTB drops how it actually works in a game.
But since the reaction on the forums is already people freaking out (there are at least 4 posts on the front page about how this is 'problematic' and 'broken' as I type this). I fully expect any mechanic they try at all will either A) get the reassurance treatment before it goes live, and get nerfed into niche use or complete uselessness or B) they'll just pull the plug and not drop anything to live servers at all.
-
You know, when I say I think anti camping measures are actively being targeted and protected by certain types of players so they're less effective and ultimately do nothing...
This is exactly what I mean. At least post with actual facts from the PTB instead of a pre emptive strike. I'm sure there will be plenty of time to have a biased opinion on Tuesday.
-
I've been opposed to disconnect bots every time someone brings it up. I'm incredibly disappointed that this is the direction BHVR is going.
- This solution address literally none of the reasons survivors are disconnecting in the first place.
- It will only increase disconnects, since there's now no incentive to 'stay because the team needs you'. The bot fills that role, so people can disconnect and not even be 'a bad teammate' anymore.
- This is highly abusable on both sides. Can't wait until survivors players get blocked in a corner for an hour while the only other player is a bot stuck in a rock or in an infinite loop. And killers will get a new type of bully squad: all 4 disconnect at the start of the match and the killer is forced to either dc or play it an entire bot match.
The only thing they needed to do is have a 30 second delay between disconnect and removing the character's avatar from the world. That solves all of the 'avoiding blood warden', or 'denying adept' situations without having any chance of being abused by anyone.