AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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I think this would work better for primary objective perks. So, for example, you could add a requirement to gen speed perks to do altruism first like healing or unhooking. That inherently slows down the early game because survivors will be trying to earn these perks and gives a bit less incentive to do 'gens and nothing but gens'.
I like the idea of overzealous, but the investment of 14 seconds to bless or break the totem doesn't give a good return to gen speed. But that's the kind of trade off I think it's good to look for: time spent elsewhere up front in exchange for gen speed later.
But I don't think extra steps should apply to things like healing or recovery. The pressure for healing should be enough to make people want to heal up or pick up a teammate.
If you make healing too difficult, the best play is to just bang out gens as fast as possible. (It's why I disliked the PTB extra healing time). Self care is already inefficient even compared to altruistic healing already, and requires two perk slots to even be viable (with botany).
This, though, is exactly why I think the self care aspect should stay on circle of healing, even if the self heal speed is nerfed or only applies to the boon owner. The time to find and bless a totem is exactly the kind of up-front investment you're talking about, and may not even see a return at all if it gets snuffed early.
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The reason for this is that boons are one answer BHVR implemented to be a 'secondary objective' for survivors. Finding a totem and blessing are things that survivors might want to do instead of just sitting on gens.
You want a secondary objective to be repeatable, so there's more time spent not doing gens.
They also need to provide some benefit to encourage people to do it in the first place, which is usually the part some people don't like.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394429#Comment_3394429
How many DH's do you think actually succeed?
As a percentage.
Ironically, dead hard suffers from survivorship bias: killers only ever see when it works.
I'm pretty sure if the devs added a notification for just the killer when dead hard didn't work it would solve a number of issues.
They could make the killer hear the survivor shout 'I'm bad at the game' when they're exhausted on the ground and the dead hard complaints would lessen. Slightly. For a few days.
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It's been worse more recently, and I'm not sure why. Some days are better than others, and I've had a couple days where I just log out after two or three non-games in a row.
I'm sure it's a different excuse every time, but if I see someone giving up on hook as survivor I'll go unhook them. They might throw pallets in a tantrum, but a lot of people just stand there and wait to be rehooked for whatever reason.
A warm body is worth more to me than a broken hook, and I'll take anything I can get for what's likely a losing game at that point.
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The two things I actively try to work on all the time are getting better at chase and trying to keep track of survivors.
The biggest piece of advice is realizing that you will occasionally lose games and that's ok. I got better in chase by noticing when a survivor is a good looper and sometimes I decide to chase them instead of trying to outright win that game. It's a conscious choice, but chasing the 'good one' has made for some interesting moments, even though I obviously didn't get many kills.
I basically turn that game into a 'practice game' and that's helped me get better over time. Obviously I don't do that every game, but it's also helped me realize when I'm overcomitting when I don't mean to.
Tracking survivors is more of a game sense thing that you get over time, but info perks help a lot. Lethal pursuer is a staple in most of my builds, and usually something like BBQ or darkness revealed that has synergy with it. Really anything that keeps the game rolling, which could be noticing a boon location or a gen with a bit of progress where you can probably find someone later on.
Ideally, if I can track, chase, hook, repeat, the game at least has a good flow of constant pressure. Choosing to disrupt as many survivors as possible keeps them busier with anything other than gens and might get some protection hits too.
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They seem to be moving in a direction where the slowdown comes from pressuring survivors rather than gen control perks. It'll be a big shift, since it seems like quite a few people right now play the role as 'saboteur' rather than 'killer' sometimes.
This shift is likely also the only way they'll actually nerf things like BNP in the future. They clearly focus on statistics, so more escapes with gen speed perks and items will bring those to the forefront.
But I wouldn't worry about overzealous. The 14 seconds spent on the totem, not counting finding it, will take like 1.6 full generators to break even (without becoming injured or downed). If survivors really want to push gens, they'll do it faster without overzealous because they don't have to touch a totem at all.
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Breakdown sounds good on paper, but I've only ever noticed getting value out of it once. And that was a hook broken near the corner of the map that the killer didn't notice or didn't realize was sabotaged by breakdown instead of a toolbox. (And even then I got slugged at the base of the hook)
Hook spacing on most maps means the killer can still get to a hook unless there's some pretty extreme circumstances. You might be able to get value on Midwich because hook spawns there suck, but just about anywhere else is just a minor inconvenience.
It might be ok in a coordinated SWF group, but not so useful in solo q. Even in a SWF, you're likely better off with someone using a sabo box, which doesn't cost a hook state or a perk slot, and can also body block for a wiggle at the same time.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393665#Comment_3393665
Off the Record is the most busted perk they ever released if you ignore og Mettle of Man.
Not really. I mean, it's definitely stronger than DS used to be, but that doesn't make it powerful. It's very restricted in its use, demanding inefficiency from the survivor if they want to put it to use outside of its intended use, and that intended use is entirely in the killer's control.
The perk has much less restrictions than old DS, which people already agreed it was busted af.
If you, like me, meant to say DH there (I royally messed up in the post you quoted, freely admit that), then yeah, old DH was pretty busted.
If you're talking about the DS prior to 6.1, then no, no one agreed it was 'busted af'. Pre-6.1 DS was incredibly healthy for the game since it basically blocked a perk slot for survivors in exchange for blocking tunnelling for the killer and doing barely anything else. It took the spikes out of both sides and slowed trials down, which is what both sides are constantly begging for. The DS stun duration nerf is one of the worst changes DBD has ever gone through.
That is not true, Off the Record mutes you so it may be a deliberate decision of the killer not bothering with you since you have that perk. In which case, you are already getting value out of it.
No, you're not, because you're not allowed to do anything to further your team's interests if you want to keep OTR. The moment you do -anything- to help the survivors, you lose OTR. You're a non-entity as long as you have OTR on, outside of bodyblocking, which is admittedly unfair to the killer.
The only way I can see someone saying 100% that OTR was useless for them is if they died on the first hook, or never found the killer for the entirety of 80 seconds after getting unhooked.
Or you got hit within 10 seconds of being unhooked, in which case OTR becomes blocked, ironically making tunnelling harder the counter to the anti-tunnelling perk.
Pre-6.1 DS was incredibly healthy for the game since it basically blocked a perk slot for survivors in exchange for blocking tunnelling for the killer and doing barely anything else. It took the spikes out of both sides and slowed trials down, which is what both sides are constantly begging for. The DS stun duration nerf is one of the worst changes DBD has ever gone through.
I feel like this isn't talked about enough. I do agree with the conspicuous actions change and disabling DS during end game changes from the 6.1 patch, but the stun duration actually did what it was supposed to do before. (Which you seem to agree, too, just being thorough with the 6.1 changes)
Killers used to consciously play around the perk and keep in mind that DS was a thing, which is exactly what a functional anti tunnel perk should be doing.
Now tho, DS is basically an exhaustion reset button and killers don't even bat an eye. DS isn't the deterrent, the only threat is another potential Dead Hard (until the patch, where even this part goes away).
It honestly feels like the reaction to DS now is a surprised 'wow, you wasted a perk slot for that' while downing the survivor again.
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@Hannacia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393677#Comment_3393677
I want both sides to be treated equal, which i am not seeing. Lately its been 1 killer perk after another one thats been destroyed to the point of no usage. This has not happened to a single survivor perk yet.
No not give me iron will or spine chill. I still see both of those a lot in my games and both of them are very usable and good perks.
Most survivor perks are already so poor/weak as to not be worth running. Calm spirit got nerfed and wasn't even close to being a 'meta' perk when that happened.
When was the last time you saw Premonition, Solidarity, Visionary, or even Smash Hit?
Survivor items are being 'gutted' harder than any killer perks. Not saying that medkits or BNP aren't in need of tuning, but most items aren't even worth considering outside of extremely niche use cases.
Maps have never been great, keys are a joke since the hatch changes, flashlights are being toned down in large chunks every patch or so, medkits get the axe in 6.7. Which leaves basically toolboxes untouched, and BNP does need a nerf, so likely toolboxes as a whole are getting nerfed whenever that happens.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392802#Comment_3392802
I’m saying you are acting like 2k is something to be proud of when in fact it shows that you didn’t win. And once again, the idea that balancing around top level play would kill the game is nonsense. All other games do it, many of which are more successful than DBD.
I know this is going to blow your mind, but 'winning' isn't always fun. And fun games aren't necessarily 'winning'. Hell, even 'good' games don't always mean winning.
Personally, I'd much rather have games where I get good moments or good plays or, god forbid, even have a laugh with the survivors than sweat my balls off every match.
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@onryowave said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392435#Comment_3392435
killer perk sees high usage, completely destroyed to the point of being useless, never changed again
survivor perk sees high usage, "tweaked" but not destroyed
curious!
So you'd be in favor of CoB, OC, and even Eruption at their peak regression values, but you get, at most, 2 uses of each per game then the perks deactivate permanently?
Interesting.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392450#Comment_3392450
CoH is now a risk reward perk.
You need to take the time to set up a Boon and you need two Survivors to heal with it. All of that is essentially free time for me as a Killer.
I expect this to be a somewhat fair patch, though it is difficult to tell. I don't expect it to affect my kill rates much.
I still think the self healing change still hits solo q pretty hard, unfortunately.
I'm expecting most people will just run self care (with or without botany), and we'll be back to 'self care in the corner' that existed before boons became a thing. Although there might be a few who still run Circle and spam crouch until someone comes to heal them.
The slow down nerfs will help tho, so I'll have to try it and see how it is in practice.
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@Pulsar said:
I didn't think it was clear.
Is it in addition to unhooking a Survivor safely or in lieu of unhooking a Survivor safely?
I read it as 'in lieu of', but I could be mistaken.
Edit: Mandy confirms in this thread that it 'can't activate until you've been hooked'. So it only activates when you are unhooked now, and not when you unhook someone else:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/371192/i-can-t-believe-dead-hard-got-such-a-tiny-nerf#latest
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@Marik1987 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3391086#Comment_3391086
How can a Killer get a 4K at 5 gens? He can only chase one survivor, maybe switch target to another one. Sometimes two are running in front of the killer, because they were on the same gen.
How can it happen, that he wins without losing a single gen? The other survivors must have opened chests or playing at their smartphone instead of sitting on a gen. Dont blame killers for useless teammates.
I love how my point is that 'fun games aren't necessarily winning games' and you hyper fixate on the one obviously hyperbolic statement in the mix.
Kinda illustrates my point perfectly when I sarcastically say '4k at 5 gens is all some killers care about' and your response is 'HOW? How can I attain this power?!?'.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3391068#Comment_3391068
I think what Dolli was saying wasn't to disagree with you but that if a Killer wants to just do a wacky meme build for fun then they will be Gen Rushed and likely lose.
Yes I agree with you too that it's more Killer sided if we look at the average player skills which is a good way to look.
But then as the Survivor's skill increases the more the scales tip to the other side. The current MMR dosnt help keeping the balance either
The problem isn't losing. I bring a build like flashbang, head on, blast mine, and residual manifest expecting in going to die/lose that game. Ideally getting at least one good moment in before dying is the only goal.
If I get hard tunneled right out the gate, there's no getting value out of those perks. I don't even get a chance to mess around before dying at all. In lethal pursuer games, getting tunneled first means never touching a gen. You can't even try to earn your build to think about using it and might as well be perkless.
For some reason tho, killers seem to have this expectation of being able to bring a 'fun' or 'meme' build and still 4k at 5 gens. Even if you accept that you might, possibly lose a game (the horror) by trying to make the game fun, you are guaranteed to have a chance to use your build. It may not work optimally, but you can go in and start working toward it immediately.
If having a fun build is only fun if you're winning the game, then it isn't the build that's fun. It's winning that's fun.
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The two main reasons people give for tunneling are that it's efficient and because gen speeds are 'too fast' to play for hooks.
Literally nothing about the patch is making tunneling less efficient. It's still the best play to remove a survivor from the match as fast as possible. If anything, whenever survivor speeds get nerfed camping gets inherently buffed.
I'm expecting face camping to become the norm, where the 'perfect rescue' play for survivors is to trade two health states for the rescue, which takes literally zero effort from the killer aside from staring at the hook. After the rescue, they will take 60 seconds with mangled to reset while the killer tunnels the survivor off hook. It's free slow down, minimal effort for the killer, and gets even more efficient if the survivors aren't coordinated or don't execute it perfectly.
And the biggest reason people use for tunneling is gen speeds. Nerfing slowdown means, at the most efficient level of play, that survivors bang out gens faster than the killer can react. Good survivors will work injured with resilience or just pre drop everything to avoid the first hit at all. Everyone loves to point to competitive DBD to show why tunneling is 'necessary'. That isn't changing and will absolutely get worse.
Removing boons, nerfing flashlights, and making heals significantly slower just sends a message to survivors to do nothing but gens, do them lightning fast, and then leave. Exactly the reason people give for tunneling now.
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I kinda feel like 'interacting with the killer' is built in slow down for a number of killers. Anyone lurking for a flashlight save, or like you said, disarming traps, means they aren't working on gens. It's a form of free slow down for quite a few killers, although arguably for killers like trapper the setup time isn't worth the time savings.
It's one of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of the flashlight nerfs from the ptb. I can understand that it could be frustrating for, say, a wraith to get burned. But removing them completely just means that survivors are on gens instead. Try increasing the time investment, spend more flashlight charges. You can nerf it without deleting it completely (and making it take more survivor investment away from just gens).
But then again, I'm also not one to run lightborn as killer. If you want to give up distance to blind me as I break a pallet, by all means go for it. I'll track you with my headset and let you give up your temporary advantage for a cheeky blind.
It feels like the ptb is saying that interacting with the killer is bad. With the side objective of boons being effectively removed, the message is very clear that survivors should never even consider doing anything other than gens. Do gens fast and leave.
I'm not convinced that's a healthy message to send. I'd much rather have interactions with the killer and their power be meaningful alternatives to just doing gens.
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You being on Xbox is weird and worrying. So far from what I've seen, most people have been able to avoid the DDOS issue by switching to Epic and using all of the available anonymous mode options.
I was pretty convinced it was a vulnerability somewhere in Steam that people were using to target individual players and matches, but that doesn't seem like the case here.
Unless maybe they targeted the server? But that usually involves a lot of rubber banding before you drop. Kinda hard to tell if that happens if you aren't in chase maybe.
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To play devil's advocate, are you saying there's nothing the devs could do to ruin the game? Or that every item in the patch notes can only bring more fun and enjoyment to players? Because that's also not true.
Look up Deathgarden. It's an asymmetric 1v5 FPS game that was similar to Dead by Daylight, and was made by BHVR. That game didn't survive in large part due to balance changes that made the game less fun.
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The past couple years since circle/boons were added there's been an incredible amount of power creep to combat healing.
Hemmhorage regressing heal progress, sloppy getting double that regression, Coulrophobia speeding up skill checks, and TONS of new aura reading perks to keep pressure on injured survivors (it used to be only BBQ, nurse's, I'm all ears).
Literally none of that is changing or even being considered for a change.
It's the same thing with gens, but the other way. Deleting gen regression might be ok IF you do it while addressing Prove, Hyperfocus, and BNP. But if you do only one half, it gets insanely unbalanced the other way.
You can't just nerf gens for killers and healing for survivors as if that somehow balances the game. It only creates two incredibly unbalanced aspects.
4 man SWF teams will pre drop pallets and gen rush with resilience and adrenaline like it's comp. There's nothing (most) killers can do to stop that.
Solo q will be somehow even less able to function and will be injured or healing the entire game. Solos already prioritize healing over everything else and don't need the additional slowdown.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385942#Comment_3385942
yes, it will be gen slowdown lol.
Every Killer build post-patch:
PGTW, Sloppy, Deadlock and Corrupt.
It's still gonna be mostly gen perks lmao
I'm expecting deadlock, sloppy, noed, no way out, or some other variant of end game perks, with an extreme amount of face/proxy camping and hard tunneling. Especially if the healing changes all go through.
Survivors are forced to give the killer 2 free hits to perfectly save from the face camp, and then they have to spend 60 seconds (a full hook stage) resetting before they can save the next hook.
It's low effort, super effective vs solos, and basically a win-win unless it's a full 4 stack. Oh, and don't forget 'gens fly' so the killer is 'forced' to tunnel.
Edit: autocorrect
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384762#Comment_3384762
How is that different from right now? I don't get it. The CoH nerf sure. But the altruistic nerf affects both swf and solo survivors.
They just need to revert the CoH nerf, because the healing nerf will already indirectly nerf CoH enough. And buff Self Care to be fair, though people not knowing to not equip that perk is a seperate issue.
Also, that last point is ridiculous. What does someone not understanding that a survivor doesn't want to heal have anything to do with balance?
Having to rely on random teammates is the additional cost. In a SWF, you have at least one teammate you can coordinate with and be on the same page, maybe 4.
In solo q, you are completely at the mercy of the matchmaker for who you get. All of those situations happen right now (though the CoH is just expanding that idea to the proposed 'aura' way CoH would work.) Including the ridiculous 'tantrum thrower' example.
I'm not sure why people think that adding 8 extra seconds is going to make some of these players instantly better. If course it won't. They'll panic and be useless while injured even more, with fewer perks to deal with it, but still show up in your games randomly, because matchmaking.
It's not an additive cost, in that 'both SWF and solos merely have 8 extra seconds'. It's that SWF has 8 extra seconds, and solos get 8 extra seconds compounded by the inefficient nature of solo q, at best, or someone decided self caring in the corner was the only option at worst. Or even the peace of mind knowing that you can work on gens injured and get a SWF callout when the stealth killer is headed your way, which could save you an entire 24 second heal altogether.
You originally asked why this decimates solo q. It's because solo q doesn't need any additional slow downs. A lot of solo q players prioritize their health state over everything else. There's no guarantee you can get someone to take a protection hit for you, and there are far too many times where you can die on the first hook of the game at 5 gens for no discernable reason.
SWF is far more comfortable being injured, because people can coordinate hits and safe healing. So they can afford to heal less often, or when they do, it could be healing each other without the reduced speed penalty from self caring with the perk (35%) or CoH (75%).
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384229#Comment_3384229
i am curious how exactly these changes massacre solos? Because the only change I can see that is really bad for solo is the CoH nerf, which is completely unnecessary in my opinion. Every other change affects swf more.
SWF: "I could use a heal." "Ok, I'm about to finish the gen clockwise from shack, I'll heal you up and we can finish it together."
Solo survivor A: wanders around the map for 45 seconds before finding someone to heal them. Forgot to equip bond in the lobby.
Solo survivor B: brought self care and wastes 60 seconds healing with sloppy, is interrupted by the killer and loses all progress instantly.
Solo survivor C: boons a totem with circle of healing. Stands still spamming crouch, doing nothing, until someone leaves what they're doing to cross the map and heal them in the boon.
Solo survivor D: plans to just stay injured and work on gens, but can't communicate this to the others mid game. Their teammate follows them around with the intent to heal, but not accomplishing anything useful because they're annoyed 'the other guy isn't letting them heal'. The teammate throws a pallet and vaults it until survivor D allows them to finally heal them, deleting their resilience buff.
SWF impact is the extra 8 seconds of healing. Solo impact is magnified tremendously by the fact that you can't coordinate with your teammates, and everyone has a different plan most of the time.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384440#Comment_3384440
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384434#Comment_3384434
Let's lay out a few basics.
If healing took 60 seconds no one should ever heal. If it took 3 seconds everyone should always heal.
The design goal should be to introduce elements that players have to think about: is this the right idea? On some elements they've made a bad design - opening chests is pretty much always a bad idea if you are just 100% committed to escaping.
Altruistic healing is in a pretty good place. 16 seconds (32 seconds between the survivors) is a worthwhile choice - is that additional health state going to buy you more chase time than you spent healing + the risk that the healing gets interrupted by the killer.
24 seconds is a big change. The circumstances were healing is now the right tactical move have dropped quite a bit. Not only are you wasting quite a bit of time that could be on gens, the 8 extra seconds increase the chances the killer gets to you before the heal finishes.
So what do you do? Try and do gens even faster. Load up on resilience. Take Off the Record or Decisive Strike. Don't even think about healing outside resets or a survivor is running a dedicated healer build (never try for a risky heal).
What probably happens is a large portion of the player base plays the same, killers at mid and lower MMR see a kill rate boost, killers have massive complaints when the next balance patch happens.
This is exactly correct.
To add to this, with increased healing time you're putting an incredibly high value on a health state. Getting injured is far, far more punishing with 24s base heals.
At higher levels, this means that survivors will pre drop pallets. Anything to delay the first hit is critical of you are already confident you can loop. Pre drop everything knowing that your team is slamming gens faster than the killer can react. This punishes 'M1' or 'weak killers' more and is already the correct play for killers like Oni or even Nemi who rely on snowballing off of it, for example.
If survivors aren't confident in their teammates or their looping ability (or both), it means either more stealth gameplay to avoid the hit, or newer players who just power through self care for an 85 second mangled heal.
So basically, high tier is comp with pre dropping and gen rushing, and solo q is a disaster.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383983#Comment_3383983
BTW, they tried many times before to do something against "camping", because people don't stop crying about it. Every single time they implemented a new mechanic to avoid camping, survivors would take advantage of it and start abusing it.
So, I join @Technature question: What would you do to "nerf" camping without survivors abusing that new mechanic?
Just nerfing camping by itself is just a matter of increasing the hook timer. That's it. That's all it takes to make standing in front of a hook less efficient is to make it take longer.
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Yup, tunneling gets a gigabuff it doesn't need with the heal speed nerf.
The medkit change is fine, circle could have had reduced self heal speed imo, but even with both of the proposed changes as-is it would've been enough.
The heal speed going to 24 seconds destroys large parts of the game. One of those is solo q, and for this exact reason.
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@Carth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383295#Comment_3383295
So is this a problem of anti heal perks stacking too strong or the hook timer being too short or a combination of the two? In this example the killer is bringing 50% of their loadout to anti heal(additionally if hemorrhage/mangled is too strong on add-ons they can do a pass like they did for exhaustion add-ons where many of them had their functionality changed). This goes for both sides but if a player dedicates 50,75,100% of their loadout to 'x' how powerful should that be?
Imo it's the fact that hook timers have never been changed. Every time you nerf speeds for survivors without changing hook timers at all, camping gets stronger. We saw it with gen speeds in 6.1 and it'll be even worse with healing in this patch.
The post I'm responding to here is talking about a specific build, but this change becomes base kit. It doesn't matter what the killer brings because 24 seconds heal is a base kit, map wide 50% healing penalty compared to current healing numbers.
Let's assume a killer has no perks or add-ons, and just look at the base heal speed of 24s. A hook stage takes 60s, and it would take 2 survivors base time of 48 seconds to heal each other.
If the killer just face camps a hook, and survivors perfectly execute the save, which takes 2 people and costs them each a health state, it ends with the person off hook, but now at least 3 people are injured.
The next hook is guaranteed to be 2 hook stages (likely the tunneled death of the recently unhooked survivor). Because in order to save again, the survivors have to reset, which takes 48 of the 60 seconds left on the hook timer.
If you swap in the 4th survivor it might only take 24 seconds to heal, but the end of that save everyone is injured because the only play to rescue is to trade health states again. There's also 100% pressure since, at best, 1 survivor is on gens for only part of the time, and they're working injured.
You could use Reassurance, but if you take a hit going in to Reassure, you only gain 6 seconds because you trade a 30s pause for a 24 second reset heal before you can go back in for the save.
And that assumes everyone has perfect knowledge, immediately, that the face camp is happening (so, kindred or comms), AND they're executing the only rescue strategy perfectly and efficiently. Oh, and they all need to start out healthy too.
Camping and tunneling is the meta, regardless of the perks the killer brings. You can add sloppy butcher and nothing else, and the numbers get worse to the point that saving can become impossible before the next hook stage.
All it takes is standing in front of the first hook of the game.
Edit: words, spelling
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@Belzher said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379690#Comment_3379690
That's sad, at least a healing by a teammate on you should be 16s still
Honestly, with the other changes there's literally no reason to change base healing speed whatsoever.
Your options for healing yourself that would be affected by this are CoH, self care, and medkits.
Circle after the patch doesn't allow self heals, which instantly doubles the required heal time since you need another survivor. With 16s base that's 32 seconds spent healing one person. Not counting travel time, finding another person, or I guess we can add standing still doing nothing while the boon reveals your aura to teammates to the list.
Self care + botany is already ~30.5 second heal which makes it equivalent to being healed by someone else already. So by dedicating half your perks to it, you save only the time finding a second person.
Which leaves only medkits. If you really want med kits to be slower, you can add a self healing penalty to the med kit directly. There's zero reason to make a base kit, sweeping change to healing times if the end result should've been a -50% modifier on exactly 4 items in the game.
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@I_CAME said:
It won't go live. They only need two reasons to not put the healing changes live.
- It makes camping significantly stronger as many others have pointed out in much more detail.
- It makes the already OP killers like blight, nurse, etc even more oppressive
The fact that this is even being considered is insane.
Unfortunately, while I agree with both of your points, I don't think they make a difference to the balance team.
1 and 2 are obvious consequences of this healing change. I can't honestly believe they don't know that, which tells me they do know but don't see those points as being problems. Basically, they know, but don't care about camping or that blight will have an 80% kill rate.
If either of those were enough to deter them it wouldn't have made it into the patch notes.
I expect the changes to either A) go live at 24s, or B) go live at something like 20-22 seconds 'because of feedback' and never be touched again. Probably 24s, but I'm very pessimistic about the healing change.
Oh, and sloppy butcher will get the Thana treatment two weeks after the patch goes live because it hit nearly 100% usage rate, like Thana did after 6.1.
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@Carth said:
If the killer is camping and not moving you know exactly where they are and can run in a straight line away from them out of the 32 meter radius. You can also run bite the bullet to essentially negate the perk entirely and remain inside of the terror radius
I'm sorry, what? Coulrophobia reduces heal speeds by 50%. Bite the bullet doesn't even completely negate missing a skill check because of the increased speed.
Anyone running Coulrophobia is 1000% bringing sloppy butcher, or some other add-on variant for mangled/hemmhorage. So missing a skill check still regresses your heal progress.
Your only option is to heal outside the terror radius. Even assuming you start outside, and know to avoid the anti heal, and already know the killer is camping, AND the killer forgot to equip sloppy butcher...
Healing both survivors from OP's scenario takes 48 seconds, and since you're at least 32m away from the killer at hook, getting to the hook takes a minimum of 8 more seconds. You have 4 seconds to secure the save in the killer's face before they hit the next hook stage.
If the killer has half a brain cell and brings both Coulrophobia and sloppy, it's 68 seconds instead. And that's playing around Coulrophobia perfectly, with kindred knowledge that they're camping at all.
Edit: spelling
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382351#Comment_3382351
And when Ruin got reworked survivors got everything they wanted and when killers adapted and learned how to use the new one it got nerfed again. Something can be nerfed and still be an issue - i.e. Nurse, Ruin, and Dead Hard.
The devs don't favour one side. Stop with this mentality.
Let's not intentionally confuse two different situations. Legacy ruin was changed in response to complaints, but 6.1 ruin was because the devs picked the top picked perks and slammed the nerf bat around. If survivors got changes because of complaints in that patch, they would've done something to functionally reduce camping in 6.1. That was, and continues to be, a much larger complaint than ruin was at that time. It's like trying to say self care got nerfed that patch because people complained (they didn't, the pick rate got it nerfed).
Dead Hard was nerfed in 6.1 exactly to the community request: dead hard for distance was directly targeted. Killers got exactly what they asked for, it just wasn't what they wanted. The complaints came back after several months when survivors adapted and now we're getting nerf round 2 entirely because of complaints again.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Yeah, I wrote something similar. If you want to rescue someone who gets camped you will need at least 2 healthy Survivors. But if both are injured (which can easily happen that all Survivors are injured at some point and they need to reset), it will take almost the entire Hook Stage to heal two Survivors. Not really much time to save at this point, even less in SoloQ. So I would expect that more often than before a Survivor will be left on the Hook to focus on Gens. (I dont think it will be a super common thing, but more than before)
And all of this is without Mangled taken into account.
Let alone that Deadlock still exists - a Perk which requires 0 effort from the Killer and can slow down the game drastrically, even if the Killer is just camping.
Hook Stages should have been prolonged when Gens got increased to 90 seconds anyway. But now that a side-objective is nerfed as well (healing), they should really increase the Hook Stages to make camping less attractive.
Absolutely this. If they want to encourage a chase meta, then the timing for hook stages should be matched to gen speeds: 90s. If you change one, you change both.
Otherwise, every time survivor speeds get slower to do anything, camping is directly buffed (and it doesn't need it).
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381923#Comment_3381923
The patch is a massive bump for soloq. Bond is already the best info perk for soloq and you throw on bot for the changes to mean nothing. But what is changed is the fact that the 3 gen bs is dead. The fact that with these changes its pushes hooks more. Those things are good for the game.
Hard tunneling even though DH is weaker so OTR should be used more and proxy camping is nerfed thanks to the regression perks taken out back not rewarding killers anywhere near the amount for camping with gen kick builds. The slowdown change for healing doesn't do anything for killer if they hard tunnel.
Your options are bring a perk. Literally it's one perk. one. whole. perk. slot.
It's adorable that you think killers won't just camp a hook when survivor speeds get nerfed.
OTR? You mean the perk that is completely disabled if they hit you when you get unhooked, right? Yeah, having to hit someone twice has truly made tunneling completely impossible. Why not just claim that BT is enough too while we're at it, I need a good laugh.
Or did you mean decisive strike? You seem to not have played survivor in the past year, so you might not be aware that it got nerfed last July.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381804#Comment_3381804
You realize if survivor start playing ultra sweaty then they will get the S tier killers every game . Have fun playing vs Spirt, Nurse, and Blight playing like its a comp match with the best add-ons every single game. Bet that will be a blast for survivor players.
The whole point is that the game will suck for solo q, so yes. I completely agree.
SWF will play this way and killers, who already have the mantra that 'tunneling is necessary' will scream it even louder. You can't change how the killer plays, and hard tunneling is where we're headed.
If your options are never escape or play competitively and sweat your balls off, people will either quit the game or adapt. The survivors who are left will be the ones who adapt and can occasionally win games. Mostly SWF, if the changes go through.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381772#Comment_3381772
Well the time it takes to heal with botany will be 16 seconds next patch and then there is gen efficiency loss which is more like 42-48 charges since you would have time finding players 16sx2players+16s to find a player to heal you would be 48c.
The math shows that healing and extending chases are better than staying injured and doing gens. If you last 30 seconds longer in chase because of a additional health state you are looking at 3 players potentially on gens putting 1 charge per second resulting in 30 seconds longer chase being up to 90 charges or 1 full gen with the killer not have any good regression perks. Now if you run botany and don't have to find a player you are losing out on 32c compared to the potential 90 for healing. I think it also takes m1 killers 20 seconds to hit a survivor a second time if that survivor is able to straight up hold w for the entire time. Probably more fair to say a survivor on average will last 45 seconds per health state. If that is the case then it would be 45x3=135c compared to the not healing being 32-48c. Granted this is more of a perfect scenario.
Extending chases
Yes, if you run adrenaline, resilience, and bring a BNP you can rush gens and heal with adrenaline.
Your point about extending chases is 100% correct, and why people will pre drop every pallet to avoid taking damage.
And survivors will burn Borgo, The Game, or Garden to make sure they have as much time to pre drop as possible.
24 seconds base heals are a complete waste of time, botany or no. Split up, work injured, bang out gens faster than the killer can snowball.
Edit: autocorrect.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381565#Comment_3381565
How so? I can run bond, We'll make it, Botany Knowledge, and OTR and have a easier time next patch compared to this one. Gen regression perks are trash and WMI+BT make the healing changes a joke. Throw in the best soloq info perk bond which is buffed again next patch and soloq survivor looks to be big chillin.
With increased healing time to this degree, it's just as efficient for survivors to heal each other as it is to do a gen.
If you and I are both injured, it takes 48 seconds, with no other factors or perks, to heal up to full. 60 seconds with just sloppy butcher or any other mangled effect.
But we could work on a gen together, inefficiently with no perks, for 53 seconds.
Not to mention that your health state becomes immensely more valuable. Avoiding damage is critical. Anyone who realizes that will pre drop pallets like their life depends on it.
The game will be entirely gen rushing by survivors, so killers will tunnel and camp like crazy to catch up. If a survivor does go on a hook, you're either getting camped or tunneled out of the game.
Does this sound familiar? It's competitive DBD. If you think, for a second, that a random team of solo q players will do well in a competitive environment, you're completely delusional.
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@Trollinmon said:
You run botany and will have more things to do in the game than current dbd which is literally sit on a 3 gen and watch some dude go around kicking gens for 30 minutes. Botany is 16 second heals now which is literally what the currently is on live.
No self healing means it takes 32 seconds, not 16, since you need a second person. That's true even if they don't change the base timing.
And a lot of people won't bother to heal at all. Resilience, adrenaline, BNP, and bang out gens as fast as physically possible.
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@Hubriq said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381255#Comment_3381255
Then run it with a perk that helps you find totems faster (small game) and other perks that reward you for cleansing totems (inner healing, clairvoyance). There, you reduced the time it would take for you to find generators, totems and the exit gate. You've also reduced the time it takes to do gens and heal (or find other people to heal you), and all you had to do was cleanse a single totem. I don't think this perk was ever meant to be good on it's own, but rather a perk to complement other builds.
Those numbers ignore the 'finding the totem' time completely. Even if you instantly travel from a totem, to generator, to second generator, you have to complete 1.7 gens to break even.
The totem finding perks do nothing to mitigate that number. The only perks that would help are counterforce (which requires breaking more than one totem first, making the return even worse), or resilience. If you're injured with resilience, you don't need overzealous anyway.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381588#Comment_3381588
Then the problem is the "casual player base", not the perk.
And there is a net positive if you play to not get hit for multiple gens. If what you want is being the cool kid and try to loop the killer for 5 gen (and fail trying) then yeah, obviously this perk is not for you. If you want to do gens and play more stealthy, then this perk would be pretty useful as it stacks with other progression perks and by itself shaves off 8.2 seconds from a generator.
And now you can have more benefits by pairing it with CoH to activate it, as you would be blessing a totem anyway.
Your 8.2 seconds 'saved' is a net loss. You spent 14 seconds on the totem in the first place. You lost ~6 seconds total.
If I start a gen at the same time you play with a totem and immediately do a gen with overzealous, I finish first by about 6 seconds.
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Let's put it this way: you want a new car, your old one barely functions and you ask me to get you a new one.
I show up with a brand new version of your existing car, but I filled the back seat with dirt, there's a dead skunk in the trunk, and ran I over your dog bringing it to you. Why are you upset? You have the new car you asked for...
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@philward1953 said:
"Camping will be more profitable than before. Killers can injure survivors coming for the save, and since it will take survivors a longer time to reset to go back for the save, there is a higher risk of a survivor hitting stage 2/dying and hook trading becomes more necessary."
I feel like if you're getting hit, and you go back to reset every time without another survivor there to actually get the save or without trading hooks, I feel like that's just a bad save and the survivor shouldn't have gone for it in the first place.
Could camping actually go down BECAUSE of how survivors can get hit and not reset in a hot sec? There is potential for more targets that are unhealthy now.
There isn't a 'go back to reset every time'. With sloppy, you get one mistake. If you have to reset even one time, you lose the hook stage entirely because the reset takes 30 seconds. If you can't coordinate that rescue effectively, like say in solo q, someone is almost certain to make one mistake at some point.
Camping is getting the biggest buff since gen speeds increased. Face camping in particular now means you either get a free kill, or get at least 72 seconds of healing slow down as two other people have to commit to being injured.
If you think this will reduce camping, you're completely delusional.
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The change makes no difference. If you're in a SWF, you can coordinate for altruistic heals already, and a 20% speed increase saves you 4s. No one cares: you spent more time than that going across the map to find someone.
If you're solo q, the medkit is sometimes your only method of healing (now will be the only, with circle dead). You can't rely on your teammates.
A guaranteed heal you can complete by yourself, anywhere will always be more valuable than 'find another player and we'll give you a 1 second discount'. They could have left the bonus at 50%, and still no one would use it for that.
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Community: gen kick meta is boring, with incredibly long matches.
BHVR: we're nerfing Billy! Btw, BNP is completely untouched!
Community: what the actual #########....
You: they're making drastic changes, why are you so upset? Just wait and see...
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@I_CAME said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381262#Comment_3381262
This is exactly why it won't make it to live. People will showcase how ridiculous it is on the PTB and they'll be forced to reverse course.
I expect they'll either leave it as is, since most of the videos from fog whisperers I've seen have praised the healing changes. Or, at best, they'll change it to 20 seconds 'based on feedback'. And sloppy will probably get the 'Thana' treatment two weeks later.
But these are readily apparent consequences of a change like this. Players already do this.
I have to assume they've already considered these situations and decided it was ok on paper. I just very strongly disagree that this is ok, even on paper.
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Fun fact: if the killer face camps with sloppy butcher, it takes 60 seconds for the hook stage.
In those same 60 seconds, 2 survivors can heal each other.
Even better (worse), is if someone goes in to use Reassurance and gets hit in the process, it will take 30 seconds to reset to try for the save. The entirety of the Reassurance timer will be spent healing to try and rescue (which takes 2 people).
Face camping with sloppy, deadlock, NOED, no way out is getting a gigabuff with this patch.
Two other 'fun' interactions to consider:
- Sloppy butcher + hex: face the darkness. It is now impossible to heal fully, base kit, without being interrupted by the scream. You have to find the totem. With the medkit change, being interrupted or missing a skill check deletes one heal from the kit entirely (which might be the only heal).
- Pinhead will be miserable with chain hunt. It takes 90 seconds to start the chain hunt. Survivors who heal against a sloppy butcher cenobite will be in an endless loop of heal two survivors in 60s, go for the box to be injured again, repeat.
Edit: autocorrect, added other annoying interactions
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The buff from overzealous is far too small for the investment, even with two buffs to the perk.
It takes 14 seconds to cleanse (or bless now) a totem, which doesn't count any travel time or time finding a totem. For your trouble, you get a 10% gen buff.
That 10% saves you 8.2 seconds if you complete a single gen from 0 to 100%.
In order to make up the time you spent on the totem, just to break even and not counting travel/hunt time, you have to complete one gen entirely and 70% of a second gen. Only after 153 seconds of uninjured gen repair do you break even.
If you get hit during any of that time the buff is gone and you've literally just wasted time and a perk slot. You'd have made more gen progress holding m1 on generators and never touching a totem.
Overzealous is never worth it to run, especially when resilience is 9% and takes no setup time.
Edit: spelling
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369041/about-the-new-patch
You are not seeing the bigger picture. Gen rushing won't be much of a problem as now survivor would need to spend more time healing, and with the changes to DH chases won't be such a burden. That's why they reduced regression perks to compensate.
For the "inexperience survivors" part that has a pretty easy solution: For them to gain experience. If you are going to quit a game because you can't win in your first days playing it then I think you should not play any PvP game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380540#Comment_3380540
Yeah, totally useless. Is not like it still is an infinite source of 50% bonus healing for almost free.
In some games right after the patch, maybe.
But the long term effect is that health states are incredibly more valuable. Being healthy is worth roughly half a gen of progress, not directly, but because it'll only be worth healing if both survivors need it, and at that point a 48 second (base) heal to top off both of you is negligibly different from spending that time doing a gen together in 53 seconds (again, with no perks).
Add in perks and it's even more efficient to do gens: sloppy makes a single heal 30s *if* it doesn't get interrupted. Hex: face the darkness alone will do that for free if the killer is afk across the map.
Regardless, being healthy is infinitely more valuable. People will quickly learn to comp drop every pallet and deny any hit whatsoever. Sprint burst to delay the chase at all, pallets to stay healthy, and your team bangs out gens with Prove, resilience, toolboxes, and BNP. I hope you like jigsaw pieces, the 1300s, and joyful gardens. You're going there every match.
It'll be either that or never escape again, because tunneling and camping again get buffed by increasing survivor times. And people will tunnel every game because 'they have to' and 'gens fly' faster than ever before. Shoot, people will tunnel just to deny possible dead hard.
If that sounds familiar, that's how every competitive game of DBD is played.
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These penalties are already factored into things like self care though. So the only place that the 'extra time' would apply to is medkits.
Just leave healing speeds at 16 seconds/charges across the board and apply a 50% self care speed penalty to medkits if you absolutely need to delete them as items. It accomplishes the same thing and is more consistent.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380743#Comment_3380743
So hit-and-run doesn't work now because healing is too easy, and hit-and-run won't work after the update because healing will be too hard?
I never claimed hit and run doesn't work right now. It gets people to stop what they're doing and go heal, probably go across the map to heal or hunt for a totem.
I also never said medkits or circle are balanced, and the medkit change isn't terrible. The only aspect I'm actively opposed to is the increase to base healing time as it is so heavy handed it will just encourage gen rushing and nothing else.
Survivors should have to decide whether to heal or not, and either of those options can be beneficial to the killer. If healing is hands-down always the wrong choice, they will plan for doing gens faster than you can possibly react instead.
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Hit and run is for applying "pressure" to other survivors. The "pressure" is that they will want to heal instead of doing gens, so you spend minimal effort as the killer to injure everyone and then in return you get free gen slowdown for your trouble.
The healing changes are not what you want for hit and run. Heal speeds are now so long that it's more efficient for survivors to complete gens injured instead of trying to heal up. You gain nothing from hit and run with this change and actively lose time because you're handing out free resilience buffs like candy, without a single down for your trouble. Not to mention that if "being healthy" is difficult to maintain, survivors will resort to pre-dropping pallets like it's comp.
Gens will be the only thing worth doing, and since medkits and circle are decimated, and even flashlights are less enticing, toolboxes and BNP are also the only thing worth bringing now too.
Games will be over in 5 minutes, no matter who "wins". Both killers and survivors should be fighting the extra base healing time.