AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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So, there's potentially a better build for this:
Self Care (Rank1) on survivor.
Killer brings: Dying Light (10 stacks), Pentimento (2 stacks), Sloppy Butcher, and Hex:Face the Darkness.
All debuffs are permanent, because we can assume only the Obsession and the Self Care survivor (you) are alive and on death hook, Pentimento is not being cleansed, and the Obsession is the one activating Face the Darkness. You are self-caring outside the killer's Terror Radius.
So with this, you have a permanent heal speed of ~10.2 seconds per charge. In 25 seconds, you heal for 2.45 charges. However, you then scream because of Hex: Face the Darkness, and the increased Hemorrhage effect of Sloppy Butcher regresses your heal at a rate of 2.1 charges per second while you are screaming.
Now, there's an unknown here where I can't find the duration of the scream to know exactly how much this regresses, but let's play with numbers and assume the scream length is 0.5 seconds for further calculations.
Since you scream for 0.5 seconds, you regress 1.05 of the charges you just earned, and over that 25.5 second period, you only gained a net 1.4 charges. That means, that for that entire 25.5 second period, you actually were healing as if you only had an effective speed of 18.21 seconds per charge.
Meaning that this method will take roughly 7 minutes and 17 seconds to fully heal, which is on par with the other method, but doesn't require weird Leverage timing or the Obsession to die with exact bleed out timing.
Also, since we don't actually know the scream length for sure, it gets *far worse* if the scream is longer. If a scream takes 1 full second instead of 0.5, it takes 29 minutes and 43 seconds to heal this way. If a scream takes longer than 1.167 seconds, it is literally impossible to heal with this setup. (This is also impossible with Pinhead, btw, because the chain hunt will interrupt you for more than a second and more often than H:FtD, guaranteed.)
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One of two builds will be functional for solo q:
If all 4 survivors do gens, you run Adrenaline, Sprint Burst, Resilience, and your choice of 4th perk, probably Prove Thyself, Deja Vu, or some other gen perk.
If your solo teammates are like mine and have a permanent gen allergy: Wake up, Sole Survivor, Left Behind, Distortion. Spend all game in the basement moving between lockers until everyone else is dead. Should take about 5 minutes tops.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380307#Comment_3380307
Pretty sure this calculation is correct, I also just ran through it myself and also got 504.80. In other words, 8 minutes and 24.80 seconds.
@AmpersandUnderscore We cannot get the 11th DL stack/proc Leverage a second time for this calculation because doing so will either disable DL (because obsession would have to be dead), or necessitate that the survivor self-caring is the obsession, meaning DL would not apply. So we do not benefit from doing this.
That's an excellent point that I overlooked, oops. I also realized just now, that I completely left out Pentimento in the first result and my first posting of this writeup... so uh, it's a lot worse than I originally thought:
I see we're also adding Mangled from add-ons, so I'll toss that in there. This gives a result of about 7 minutes and 23s like this:
- Survivor #2 is hooked, giving the 10th Dying Light stack and triggering Leverage for 30s. At the same time, the Obsession, Survivor #3 is downed at the hook and slugged.
- You begin your self care when S2 is hooked, and in the first 30s, you heal at one charge every ~40.81 seconds, and gain a total of 0.735 charges.
- For the next roughly 3 minutes and 29 seconds, S3/Obsession bleeds on the ground as a slug, then is picked up at the last second and taken to a hook in ~11 seconds. While they bleed out and get carried, you heal at ~20.41 seconds per charge, and gain another 10.78 charges (for a total of 11.515).
- The obsession dying cancels Dying Light, but triggers Leverage a second time for 30 more seconds. So you heal at a rate of ~28.57 seconds per charge, and gain 1.05 charges until Leverage deactivates (for a total of 12.565).
- You finish the heal with only Mangled, Pentimento, Coulrophobia, and Self Care speeds, so the remaining 11.435 charges take ~14.28 seconds per charge to complete, and you finish the heal ~163.4 seconds after Leverage runs out.
Technically, you could take longer if you assume the Obsession isn't struggling/AFK, and can be carried freely without bleeding out or being hooked until you have exactly 30s remaining, then trigger Leverage. That seems a stretch for even a thought experiment, so I went with the "spirit" of having the Obsession die as part of the calculations.
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About 315.89 seconds, or 5 minutes and ~16 seconds.
Self care T1: 25% (or 1 charge every 4 seconds)
Pentimento: 30%
Coulrophobia: 50%
Dying Light 10: 30% (up to 33% at the 11th hook)
Leverage: 50% for 30s
Worst case scenario:
You're the last survivor standing. Survivor #1 is already dead, survivors 2 and 3 are downed. You begin self caring immediately when survivor #2 is hooked to death, triggering DL at 10 stacks and Leverage for 30s. For 30 seconds, you are healing one charge every 22.85 seconds. In the 30s while Leverage is active, you heal a total of 1.31 charges of the 24 you need to full heal.
Exactly at the 30 second mark, survivor #3 is hooked to death. Leverage triggers again for 30s and Dying Light is now 11 stacks. For 30 seconds, you heal one charge every 23.88 seconds. While Leverage is active you heal another 1.25 charges, making the total 2.56 charges out of 24.
For the next ~255 seconds, you heal at a rate of one charge every 11.94 seconds for the remaining ~21.4 charges you need.
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@AetherBytes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379809#Comment_3379809
30s healing time with sloppy (with no other modifiers). That is pretty long, might entice survivors to group up. I smell a legion meta.
The healing speed nerf won't encourage people to group up. It's a sledgehammer nerf that makes healing a gigantic waste of time. The only thing it will do is signal to every survivor that gen progress is the only thing worth doing.
2 injured survivors, with no perks involved, will heal each other in 48 seconds. Those same 2 survivors could inefficiently finish a single gen together in 53 seconds. It's even more efficient for them to split up, since they each finish half a gen in 45 seconds separated.
Which do you think is going to actually happen?
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@Nihlus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379144#Comment_3379144
I don't think the medkit nerfs make any sense. How often do you bring a medkit to heal other people? Now every single medkit has the same speed healing yourself and the same number of charges. The brown one is just as useful, and cheaper, than the purple or green. They might as well just remove the ability to heal from the game entirely if they want to make the state of the game better. All this is going to do is make people selfcare in the corner now for 48 seconds... assuming you aren't also running sloppy, which is just overkill.
At least if they aren't able to waste that time there's a small chance they might get on a gen again.
There will be two extremes.
Some players will spend 68.5 seconds using self care in the corner and die every game they don't get hatch.
Others will power through gens injured as fast as humanly possible with resilience, adrenaline, and BNP.
We'll be seeing posts about 'gen rushing' flood the forums clamoring for gen speed nerfs with redoubled effort.
Edit: spelling
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@AetherBytes said:
Actually, tunnelling will probably drop since hit and run will be viable again and I'm not forced to chase a specific survivor in the fear they'll heal up if I blink.
Nerfing survivor speeds will always lead to an increase in tunneling and camping. People said the exact same thing when gen speeds got a base increase in 6.1.0, where tunneling and camping increased dramatically. It will be exactly the same with the healing speed nerf in this patch.
Tunneling is even encouraged/rewarded by the dead hard change. If you're worried about dead hard, they can't ever activate it if you just keep hooking the same survivor until they die.
And the #1 excuse for tunneling is because gens are "too fast." Medkits might not be worth a slot anymore, and healing isn't worth the time to do it. So survivors will bring toolboxes, BNP, resilience, and adrenaline and everyone will sit on gens until the gates power. 100% a "gen rush" meta. And killers who "have no choice" but to tunnel will continue to do so, for the exact same reason.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Base 24 second heals are going to feel really bad. I would have rather they adjusted the medkits to be 24 second self heals and baked in a base altruism speed buff to keep teammate heals at 16 seconds. I can see a situation with 90 second gens+24 second heals+speed debuffs where everything feels way too long.
I totally get that game speeds felt too fast for some at 80/16. But 90/24 is creeping too far in the other direction IMO. VHS and other asymms failed for a reason, and it usually boiled down to sluggish pacing.
People are going to rush to call me out, but you have to consider the scenario that players default to the most unfun build here to capitalize on the changes. How are these changes going to play against Thana+Sloppy? It's going to be pretty bad.
Don't get me wrong, CoH and medkits needed changes. I just think the healing speed changes need more nuance and they need to look at Sloppy and other anti-heal perks too.
Someone looked at the old Forever Freddy build, and said "y'know what? that should be base kit for every killer". Pretty sure the base healing speed change alone is slower than FF.
I'm hoping they get good feedback on this and make adjustments, because on paper this patch makes solo q unplayable.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379448#Comment_3379448
I agree. The base heal changes are overboard. Medkits and CoH needed nerfs, they nerfed them, but then went too far with it as usual by nerfing all healing. I’d be completely fine with putting a heal speed penalty on medkits to make them 24 seconds, but normal healing did not need to be nerfed this much, if at all.
Fully agree with medkits. CoH, IMO, might have warranted a numbers tweak, but, like it or hate it, CoH was one of the few perks that helped bridge the soloq/swf gap. Or used to. It's a waste of a perk slot with this change.
My copium on the healing speed is that they'll run the PTB and then revert some or all of the nerf. It'll land on either 16s or 20s so they can say they "listened to feedback" and responded. But the "realist" in me is trying to accept that this is going to go live as-written at 24s base.
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Billy changes are so odd. It's like they have to have one "Calm Spirit" level of change included in every patch. No one asked for this, and no one thinks this is a good change.
I've never played Billy personally, and have little interest in his play style. But this change is wholly unnecessary.
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@BougieBlackChick said:
You’re correct. If you’re someone who brings toolboxes, maps or flashlights this is a huge nerf for solo Q because now your ability to heal is 100% dependent on randos in solo Q unless you bring your own medkit, WITH enough ads ons to get you the two full heals. Unless you wanna waste a peek spot on self care that takes as long to heal you as it does to complete a full gen.
so now all the killers who use tunneling as the META (because this isn’t going to slow down tunneling or camping. Let’s be honest) are guaranteed a 4K every match
Any nerf to survivor timing is also a direct buff to tunneling and camping, with no other changes that counteract the effect. The healing speed change alone makes face camping a nearly guaranteed 3k+ with the right build.
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@Pulsar said:
Deadlock, PR, NOED+ No Way Out
Replace pain res with sloppy or remember me and you've got yourself a face camping build that annihilates solo q.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
Standard healing by other Survivors was left alone. This is how healing should be done. Currently Survivors take hits like it’s no big deal and quickly heal up. Taking a hit should be an actual setback, not a mild annoyance.
Did you read the patch notes? Base heal speed changed from 16 to 24 seconds.
All healing, across the board, nerfed by 50%, including 'standard healing by others'.
The only exceptions to this are inner healing, renewal/second wind, and adrenaline which they haven't mentioned changing. But none of these are standard forms of healing.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379371#Comment_3379371
Sloppy Butcher heals will be 30 seconds now; combining with Coulro would extend that to 60 (or Coulro would be 48 by itself).
I’m also expecting Gift of Pain to be a bit more popular now if these changes go through, especially since PR has been nerfed. It’ll be a 30 second heal after unhook and then the 16% heal penalty will be more impactful now too, AND it reduces repair speed.
Fun fact: if you face camp with sloppy and manage to hit one survivor early before they're ready to try for an actual unhook...
By the time they heal that survivor to try again, reassurance has expired if they even brought it.
It's Forever Freddy levels of healing, base kit, for everyone. Solo q is going to be unplayable.
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With a 50% reduced healing speed, we're back to Forever Freddy levels of heal time. This time base kit, on nurse and blight!
If you don't remember that, it isn't known for being 'super happy fun times' meta.
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Circle may not have been tuned right, but like it or not, it played a big role in closing the solo q/SWF gap.
This patch is gonna suck for solo q, especially with Forever Freddy healing speeds now being base kit for everyone.
Really hoping they reconsider slapping a 50% nerf on all healing across the board.
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@NerfDeadHardPLZ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379238#Comment_3379238
Yeah they can adress camping with it, killers wouldn't mind that at all, because killers also enjoy chases, but since the game force you to tunnel or camp because of CoH, DH, Gen rushing addons and items and perks, we had no choice but to camp and tunnel, i am all for it to make game more about chases rather then gen rushers
Anyone who says they 'have to' tunnel, camp, or 3 gen will continue to do so.
These changes mean that survivor gameplay is gens and gens only, finishing as fast as possible before the game has a chance to snowball.
Welcome to 4 BNP, resilience, adrenaline meta.
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Med kit nerfs make sense, it's been a long time coming really.
The general healing nerf seems overkill, especially since sloppy is already prevalent and means a 30 second heal that gets obliterated if it gets interrupted.
Overall, I'm concerned this decimates solo q. Circle of healing might not have been tuned perfectly, but it was one of the few perks that actually helped bridge the solo/swf gap.
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@Chomperka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378935#Comment_3378935
solution to tunneling it's not giving survivors 943141233123 seconds of endurance after unhook, it's just a buff to survivor. Also i will remind you 99% of time this endurance DOES NOT PREVENT TUNNELING, it's used by survivors to BODYBLOCK KILLER. And why not to tunnel survivor who boldly blocks you from giving a hit and chasing another survivor? It's his fault that he blocks you instead of running away, after all.
To reduce tunneling, killer should BENEFIT from not tunneling. Like basekit grim embrace. Right now it's not like killer gets any benefits for not tunneling/camping, except bloodpoints, but who cares.
Are you ok? I only stated the fact that they added base kit BT in 6.1 and you exploded in a rant of things I never said, claimed, or even implied.
I'm convinced the only way to reduce tunneling is to make it a less efficient way to play. We seem to agree on that.
That isn't done by increasing gen times, buffing killers directly, or nerfing survivors directly. It can only be a change to the core gameplay and I'm not certain the devs are interested in making changes to things that would actually make an impact.
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@Chomperka said:
No, it would. Right now if you want to win, your only choice is to tunnel and camp. NO OTHER OPTIONS, except if you nurse/blight and down 4 survs first minute of course.
But! if you increase objective timer, and there'd be option to not tunnel/camp and still get -4, i bet amount of those dirty tactics will be reduced. But of course you just can't remove it completely(except giving last hooked survivor imunnity to hooks, but that'd be too much).
Setting aside the 'no other choice but tunneling' crap since someone is already addressing that...
We already know that this exact argument does not work. At all.
They did this in 6.1. They added 10 extra seconds per generator base kit in addition to a host of other global killer buffs to reduce chase times. Even added base kit BT as an anti tunneling measure for icing on the cake, just in case.
Tunneling got worse. It always will when survivor objectives get longer to complete, because it's still easier to get one person out of the game than to juggle 4 survivors.
Stop pushing for a 'solution' that has already been tried and did the exact opposite of 'combatting tunneling'.
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@Chomperka said:
it's a problem of current meta overall, she was made to be better in chase, but people camp 3-gen anyway because it's the most effecient way to play every killer right now, except for nurse, blight, wesker, rin whose abilities purely designed for fast chases(but know what? you can also 3-gen as those killers without a problem).
We're in need for another 6.1.0.
We need to stop referring to the whole 'camp '3 gen from game start' thing 'efficient'. Efficiency has a component of time, and implies that this is a quick path to winning a game, which this absolutely isn't.
Call it what it is: this is an 'easy' way to play the game for any killer who doesn't value their time. It just dilutes a pvp asymm game into a pve gen kick simulator.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377986#Comment_3377986
I just find it suspicious that it would be a Steam vulnerability if it's ONLY affecting DBD.
I haven't heard anything about CSGO being hit by a swarm of DDoS attacks.
I'm uncertain if it's related to steam or not, but Apex streamers have been getting hit with ddos recently too.
I know the Apex servers for high rank competitive lobbies specifically have added ddos protection, but that doesn't say much. Could be a new thing that gets around those server protections, or could be something that targets clients now instead, similar to DbD.
This could be coincidence, or just entirely unrelated. It does stand out to me tho that these two games at least have had a recent uptick in external ddos attacks in the past few weeks, so at minimum someone is busy out there with an awful lot of noise.
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This is a lot of conditionals when there is an even simpler solution, with less room for edge case problems: every hook stage should be the same as base gen time.
Every time you increase the base gen time without increasing the hook timer, camping becomes more powerful and efficient by default. That was a big mistake in 6.1, where gen times increased, but hook stages stayed the same. Unsurprisingly, camping and tunneling also got worse.
Even with more time, survivors are still under pressure to rescue, but the killer is now wasting precious time watching someone die if they choose to stay near the hook.
The only solutions for camping and tunneling aren't punishment, but making those strategies less efficient than applying pressure elsewhere.
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Camping falls into a category of things that take minimal effort and planning and is countered by coordination and information.
Sure, not knowing what to do or how to coordinate in some cases can be the problem (i.e. bad players), but that's not the whole picture.
Solo q basically relies on kindred for this information, and not knowing immediately that someone is being camped can cost quite a bit of time. Every survivor has to individually gain the information, and even then kindred may not tell if a stealth killer is still near the hook. I disagree that not having perfect information immediately makes all four survivors bad.
In any camping situation, throwing those same 4 survivors in a discord call doesn't make them instantly better players, they're just better informed and better coordinated. They could make mistakes in execution, sure, which is where some level of skill comes in, but not being psychic isn't a skill issue.
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It's likely that the solution to many problems in the game will come from nerfing both sides in various ways.
Take, for example, gen speeds. You could buff every regression/slowdown perk, and then would have to give more options to survivors. It just makes the problem worse. That results in basically what we have now, where gens can be done in 25 seconds with 3 survivors with BNP, or the other extreme of over 3 minutes with Pentimento/dying light.
It's healthier right now to nerf things so there's nowhere near the drastic differences on either end. Effectively delete BNP and make other changes and you could end up with gens taking between say 70-110 seconds instead of 30-170.
The same concept applies to the killer gap.
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Yeah this kind of player sucks. I feel like there are too many people who decide to play *like* a psychopath without empathy rather than just playing *as* a psychopath without empathy.
(And yes, survivors are included in this and can play like psychopaths, too... The phrasing just doesn't work out as nicely.)
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@Grum said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3373560#Comment_3373560
MMR isn't a reward though.
It doesn't matter. Just the idea that people are being rated on their skill, even hidden behind the scenes, is enough pressure to change how many people play.
People stop playing for fun games, fun plays, and only play to win. Doesn't matter if the win is fun for anyone, including them, or even a waste of an entire hour for a single match...
Just simply knowing that kills are the metric of player skill changes the goal of playing for some people.
And the fun part is that the metric doesn't matter nearly as much as how people *think* they're being rated. If BHVR told us that nothing mattered aside from the combined total of all 5 players' blood points at end game, people would throw every game to farm and make sure it was 40k across the board. If we were told it was 'hooks', there would be attempts to 12 hook every game... Even if those were lies and the back-end metric was exactly the same as it is now: only kills matter.
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@BenOfMilam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3375938#Comment_3375938
I disagree. It's seriously not hard at all to grab a friend, run Blood Pact + Power of Two, and burn a Giddeon's or Midwich offering.
Guardian + Hope + No One Left Behind is WAY more conditional than "heal your friend exactly once", especially considering that after a little bit you go down to Hope speed.
Survivors should not be able to indefinitely outrun the killer, full stop. If a killer could run two perks and run at 150% for the majority of the match after meeting some condition, those perks would get nerfed before you could blink. Regardless of how difficult the activation condition is.
Broken is broken. Combos with this level of strength should not be in the game.
You should look up bloodlust. It's base kit for every killer, and just got buffed in 6.1.0 last summer. Even without BL, the killer is faster than the survivors before gens finish. The survivors physically can't be faster than a bloodlusted killer at any point.
I find it difficult to believe that any killer is incapable of chasing for 35 seconds at most (to get to BL3) to hit even one of these two survivors, when they are locked into looping together and tripping over each other. Any injury to either of them completely negates T:Po2, making the entire build moot. (If they're exposed by GF, a single hit negates both haste perks.) They can't body block for each other, and this counter is available to every killer in the roster. This is easily counterable by design, and not even remotely an issue.
This whole post is because one person lost a single game and rage-posted immediately. Losses happen, you can't win every game. This isn't even at risk of becoming a meta build... you won't see another combo like this for another 500 games, if ever.
These survivors didn't use a map offering, or toolboxes, or a single "gen rush" perk. There's one dead hard to speak of, and two of these survivors aren't even running exhaustion perks. Everyone got 25k+ bloodpoints, which says it was a really good game overall. The only "problem" is that the killer didn't win the game.
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There's no way to make tunneling 'impossible', and I'm not sure that would even be healthy for the game. Getting the game down to 2 survivors, for example, would make closing out the match miserable for everyone.
What you really need is to make tunneling a less efficient way to win than it is now, and it'll naturally phase itself out except in those situations where it's actually needed.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374341#Comment_3374341
The time it takes to bless the totem only applies to a single player. The other three only need to worry about going to the boon's area, which you can call a time investment but considering they'll likely be going there to run away from the killer that injured them in the first place, I doubt it's really a significant cost most of the time.
CoH is more efficient than any other healing perk because its cost is minimal, it's renewable, and can be moved if necessary. The only downside is time and placement and both of those are insignificant by comparison to other perks.
The only downside is time
In most discussions, time is the only thing that matters in the game.
If you nerf CoH, people will just bring medkits, which can be used anywhere, and heal considerably faster than Circle. Are you really sure that having someone full heal in your face while you break pallets during chase is the preferable option here?
The returns on CoH are variable, but it's also possible to spend 14 (or even 28) seconds booning a totem that gets zero value if found before it can be used, or even snuffed mid heal. Some people have clearly never had to bless (14s) and then self care for 21+ seconds, *after* hunting for and finding a relatively safe totem because that's the only option to go for a hook save.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3374564#Comment_3374564
i wonder if survivors could see the killers prestige what would happen (not the killer themselves just the prestige)
yeah dodging after a match seems to happen when they see what killer they are facing from the screen prompts (they really need to get rid of this it puts stealth killers/nurse at a disadvantage)
how long does it usually take to requeue as a survivor for you on average?
As far as I can tell there's no 'priority requeue', so I go back to the back of the line whenever I requeue, just like anyone else.
Queue times vary a bit for me, but I play mostly East Coast NA, in the evenings, so usually only have a 1-2 minute queue, even if the incentive bonus is on killer and the survivor pool is overbooked.
In most 'killer dodged the lobby' scenarios, I'd much rather wait another couple minutes than get stuck in a really crap match that could last 5-45 minutes with the current state of the game and killer backfills.
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Several things contribute to this:
1) Survivors can't see the killer's prestige, cosmetics, power (item) in the lobby. Survivors leaving a lobby are basically blind, or at least are not making an informed 'dropping because I actively see a problem' decision. The killer has all this information right away. Dodging after the match starts is an issue, but not what we're talking about here.
2) There are roughly 4 times as many survivors, the majority of which are solos, and generally short queue times. So chances are good that even if a survivor dodges at the lobby, they get replaced by a similar MMR survivor and the match is basically the same as if the first survivor had stayed.
3) I personally do drop and requeue a lobby *if* I see the killer dodge first, and I encourage the others to requeue also. I have noticably worse games when the killer dodges, which is why I consider lobby dodging to ruin the game for all 5 players.
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@Mandy said:
You are free to block other people on the forum, the function was added some months ago - you need to go to their profile to activate it.
However, to correct a few things. Users are not allowed to make personal attacks towards others on this forum and we request that everyone follows the forum rules, if you feel that rules are being broken, please flag the post for the moderators to look into.
It may be unintended, but (at least on mobile) you can't 'ignore' someone directly from their profile if they have their profile set to 'private'.
As a workaround, you can instead go to your own profile, edit profile, and then add someone manually to your personal ignore list.
So you can still do it, but it took me a while to figure out how to ignore private profile users.
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If this is true, your friend needs help. Someone they can talk to at a minimum, preferably a professional therapist that they get along well with and feel comfortable with. There are also online resources (at least in the US) for suicide prevention, including suicide ideation.
If this isn't true, then as someone who struggles with a lifetime of extreme chronic depression: ######### you.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
"Any more survivors than that can have one loop/distract her. If she comes back to proxy gens, she technically isnt making progress by downing survivors."
This part makes 0 sense.
First of all, Survivors distracting her only works when the Killer actually wants to get distracted. Most of the time a 3-Gen camping Killer drops the chase quickly to go back to the 3-Gen. And while this does not mean that they can down Survivors, they will at least get rid of ressources which eventually will help to down Survivors. You can be the best Survivor player, but you wont be able to do anything without ressources.
And well, a 3-Gen camping Skull Merchant just means that you will have a game of 40+ minutes without much fun, because you dont really get into a chase with her, since she is just protecting her 3-Gen. And while you will probably get a lot of BPs, you will get even more if you just go to the next games - you can probably get 3 games done instead of trying to break her 3-Gen.
I cannot really blame Survivors who dont want to spend their evening in a 3-Gen game. And I dont even know why Killers are so upset about it, I thought their 4K is sooo important that they even play in one of the most unfun and boring ways (not chasing and just protecting a 3-Gen), so a Survivor giving up will just help with that.
The Devs really need to clarify the rules on 3-Gens. Because Survivors refusing to do Gens is clearly taking the game hostage, but a Killer refusing to chase Survivors at some point and just protecting 3 Gens without much intention to kill anyone is the same.
They have stated in the past that a killer who defends a 3 gen with their power and perks, without downing, hooking, or killing anyone for a long time is taking the game hostage and is reportable.
@Peanits said:
If they are making no attempt to down anyone and purely stalling the game by keeping everyone in madness 3, only downing and slugging them if they refuse to move, that would be considered holding the game hostage. We would need to see that they are doing this for a long time, though, not just a couple minutes. The 3 gen strat on its own is not bannable, it only become an issue when it's being used to grief instead of win.
Essentially it boils down to: killers primary objective is to 'kill survivors', and 'gen defense' is a secondary objective to help with kills.
With a 'normal' 3 gen, the killer is banking on using up resources and capitalizing on a survivor making a mistake for the down, which might take a few minutes, but there should be mind games involved and some randomness to aid with the goal of getting a down.
But... holding a 3 gen indefinitely, doing the same patrol, and never taking any chase whatsoever becomes problematic. In that case, the 'killing' objective has become secondary and 'gen defense' has become the primary goal, and the game doesn't progress.
Same thing with survivors. 'Surviving' and 'completing gens' are both goals, but hiding for an extended amount of time without touching gens at all sacrifices the 'gens' objective and 100% focuses on surviving. Hiding can be a good strategy, too, but at some point, survivors need to take risks or the game can't progress.
There's some nuance to the timing with how long this lasts, usually a 'few minutes' is ok, but hitting 30+ minute games regularly is closer to 'hostage' territory.
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@Pulsar said:
Killers were buffed.
Latest stats show that Survivors have only a 38% escape rate at high MMR.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/V1Z0Y0FUUZSC/kill-rates-png.png
Due to the Eruption change and the buff to Solo's, I'd expect the Kill Rates to even out around 57%. However, that's completely speculation. I'd expect that the Devs will want to wait and see how the Kill Rates look. I'd expect changes in the next Chapter release or after, as that gives adequate time to allow things to settle in a post-Eruption world.
Maybe. That data is from September though, before knight release and before Eruption became a 'hard meta' perk. Their perk data they released about the same time had Thana in the top 10, so it was from right after 6.1, but before the Thana nerf.
I suspect that the reason the Eruption nerf got escalated to a chapter release instead of waiting 6 more weeks until a typical mid chapter is because Eruption had a bigger effect after those kill rates were posted.
I wouldn't be surprised if the 61% average kill rate kept climbing as Eruption got more and more popular, which caused them to 'break glass' and nerf it early.
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It used to be that the chase was the most important aspect of the game.
With Ruin/Undying a killer got nearly zero value if they didn't spread pressure to various survivors. The only 'free pressure' with that build was the time spent hunting for the totems. Even if you brought pop it wouldn't activate until you earned a hook. Every part of that requires a chase.
Even Pain Res/DMS (which as a combo is literally unchanged, DMS provides the information) had the same thing, in a different order. You earned the perks on hook and then spread pressure to block gens and force people to spend time healing instead of repairing.
With how most people play now, gens are the most important aspect of gameplay.
People drop chase to kick gens all the time, because the chase is less important than the gen kick now. There's nothing to 'earn' with the current perks, they're always active with or without a hook, so there's nothing that ensures the game is progressing. More and more games it's like instead of 'killer' the role is 'saboteur'.
And if the killer decides that it's time to play 'gen kick simulator 2023', there's literally nothing the survivors can do to force a chase. The options at that point are 'give up' or 'slog for 40 minutes and maybe win'.
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If you're only using one primary metric then kills/escapes is the most important. It's also the statistic that balances both game mechanics and MMR at the same time, so balancing around something else could mean even worse matchmaking.
That said, I generally believe that there's no such thing as bad data. I would hope that BHVR has the stats available to track things like match length, number of gens completed, number of hooks, and loadouts (perks, items, add-ons). Even stats like chase length (which may or may not be available to them) can give a better idea of time to kill.
These can give context to a kill rate that might help for balancing, but shouldn't be the primary focus. For example, bubba and nemesis have the same kill rate (59% per September stats) but Nemi might have an average of 9 unique hooks per game, while bubba might be more like 7. But if there's a discrepancy in other stats it might give a clearer picture of where certain killers are struggling.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363312#Comment_3363312
And by then the gen is completely finished and your eruption is gone since the gen its applied to is gone. You ARE on a timer, until that gen gets done which depending on the killer and when you found the gen, is a very short time. Especially given you have to first go out of your way to kick it then catch up to the survivor and down them
If the perk expired or timed out after a certain amount of time I'd be more inclined to agree with you. In that case you could really only use the perk in situations where the gen has meaningful progress and there's a limited window to get the down for full eruption value.
But instead, the perk lasts indefinitely and gets used quite often on gens under 10%. The only gameplay this perk "rewards" most of the time is making sure every gen has been kicked at least once, where the killer will leave a (barely touched) gen and survivor completely alone to go kick more gens. I'm sorry, but I don't think that kicking gens is "skillful" gameplay... especially when there is absolutely no discretion on whether a gen is worth kicking or not.
Even if it can reward skilled plays when a gen is near completion, it not only rewards but also encourages the "spray and pray" kick everything playstyle, which I struggle to see much "skill" in.
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@Seraphor said:
You're right, and this is the main reason I was never in favour of the flat increase to gen times that came with 6.1.
Even if you remove the reason killers feel tunnelling is necessary, that doesn't miraculously stop tunnelling from giving a huge advantage in literally any scenario. The cat is out of the bag, once killers start tunnelling, they don't just stop suddenly.
There need to be mechanics that directly impact tunnelling, such as effects that scale with the number of survivors in the game.
If the killer has an incentive to keep four survivors in the game for longer, such as with Thanatophobia, then you might actually curb tunnelling. The problem with Thanatophobia is that the activation requirements mean it only works on two possible killers.
For example, taking gen speeds as an example. If gens were repaired slower with more survivors alive, and faster with fewer survivors alive, you would incentivise keeping as many survivors around as long as possible. You then turn survivor elimination into a balancing act between living survivors and faster gen speeds. Tunnelling doesn't magically go away, but it stops being a win-win scenario, and there's a valid choice to make between spreading hooks and early eliminations.
Whether or not this needs to be basekit, or a new meta perk, is the question. One idea for a perk mechanism could be as follows:
- You gain a token for each unique survivor you hook.
- You lose a token for each survivor eliminated by any means.
- Each token increases/reduces effect x by y%.
- e.g. each token slows down gen speeds by 5%. or, each token increases movement speed by 4%, etc.
- I think this effect would be better than Thanatophobia, because it's not as transient, instead of having a lesser requirement of 'injuring' a survivor, with that effect dissipating upon healing, it's a permanent effect you gain from the more difficult requirement of 'hooking' each survivor, and only gets removed by your actions in an entirely fair way.
- As long as this effect is strong enough to make it a new meta perk, it would have a significant effect.
This is actually an interesting idea and I like the concept.
Personally I think this (or really any 'solution to tunneling') would need to be a base kit or core game mechanics change to be effective. If it's a perk, for example, it's either so good that it deters tunneling but then you really have no choice but to run it (not ideal with only 3 actual perk choices), or it's just good enough that tunneling is still just as, if not more effective.
But I'm not opposed to the idea of having this be a base kit mechanic. The only real solution to tunneling is to make spreading hooks/pressure more efficient, which I think this could do with the right numbers tweaks.
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@Firellius said:
As I understand it, it still triggers the notification, it'll just be a loud noise notification instead of a scream.
True, but at least for MYC you already get the unhook notification at the same spot.
I'm genuinely baffled by the scream nerf overall tho. Kinda hoping they change that back in a hotfix in the coming weeks, or at bare minimum, drastically increase the 19m range.
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This is such a weird change to make. Like, if they just made screams 3d it would've been fine, but nerfing notifications and a useless 19m radius is just...
Why tho?
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363204#Comment_3363204
Killers Primary Objective is to Kill Survivors
Secondary Objective is Protect Gens From Being Repaired.
Survivors only have one objective...Repair Gens to escape. Totems would be at most considered a optional objective since they are not required to be done to complete the Main objective.
On most maps losing 3 gens in quick succession does usually mean the Killer will lose that match because the Gens would be so far apart trying to apply pressure would be very difficult unless the Killer goes for a 3-Gen Def or Survivors 3-Gen themselves.
Survivors have one objective until the killer acts. The survivors' primary goals are *surviving* and doing gens to escape.
As soon as someone is hooked, that is a secondary objective that needs to be completed with some urgency. You can't just let someone die on first hook and expect to survive the match.
Similar with healing. It's more situational than a hook, because you can function while injured and there's no timer, but there are situations where you really should be fully healed (such as unhooking or against a stealth/surprise killer).
And yes, I consider totems a secondary objective, just like gens are for killer. It's completely possible to play a game and win without ever interacting with a totem. And it's also possible to win as killer with an end game build that requires all of the gens to be finished.
But you're just kind of proving my point, that what people want is a *required* secondary objective that doesn't progress the survivors escaping... Which is wanting them to just voluntarily AFK.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362975#Comment_3362975
Yeah no...Eruption at least rewarded the killer for playing well and getting consistent downs while also managing to go out of their way and damage gens to keep the pressure applied. DH is just a free 3rd health state at every pallet and against killers like Huntress, Pig, Trickster, Wesker, Twins, Pyramid Head, Knight, and Nemesis. You can say they're on even playing field which I wouldn't exactly get behind but its more agreeable than "Eruption was way more busted than DH ever was." When DH removes any and all pressure you apply by injuring survivors.
Eruption has never 'rewarded the killer for playing well', it simply rewards you for playing the game.
There might be an argument for 'playing well' if Eruption expired on a timer, so you were forced to earn a down within so many seconds of the gen kick. At least then you would have to close out chases relatively quickly.
But as it is, Eruption is infinite duration, so you can play like a complete potato and get both hits on a survivor only with the help of bloodlust 3 and it still procs.
You don't even have to pick a specific survivor (like obsession perks) or down them in proximity to the gen. You can just follow whatever moves in front of you and eat pallets until eventually you win the chase by brute force. You *can* win by mind games and skill, but the perk works whether you win by skill or by bloodlust training wheels.
This isn't a perk that rewards 'playing well' or any kind of strategy.
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@stonedcandle said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363043#Comment_3363043
Then how do you think the developers should give killers a way to slow down survivors working on generators? Because that's the only objective survivors have and stopping them from doing it is one of five objectives the killer has. So killers have to have a way to slow it down and since everyone cries about gen slow down perks too what other options are there?
There has to be a way for the killer to stop survivors from doing gens outside of hooks and chases because you've got 3 other people working on gens while you're doing that.
If anything they need more incapacitating effects along the lines of pre-buffed Eruption. There need to be more ways to keep survivors off generators to move away from the killer meta we have.
You're describing 'pressure'. The killer has injuring, downing, and hooking survivors as base kit. On top of that, killers have their power for free which usually involves some secondary objective or task for the survivors to do, even if that is just 'healing'. Powers are also unlimited use, unlike survivor items.
You also only have '3 survivors on gens' at the very start of the match. Once you get a down or even an injury, survivors naturally have other things they want or need to be doing.
I don't know where this mentality comes from that the killer's win condition only counts if 0 gens are ever completed. The gens are not the killer's primary objective, the survivors are. Gens are just a killer resource, and yes, you're likely going to lose a couple gens early as the game is getting started.
Having even 3 gens completed doesn't mean the game is '60%' over. Survivor objectives get harder as the game progresses because fewer gens tightens the play field, and people are hooked, injured, and in chase. Unless the killer is literally AFK there should never be 3 survivors 'free' to do gens after the first down. Killer objectives btw, get easier as the game progresses.
There already is a secondary objective in the game that revolves around totems. Both blessing and breaking totems are secondary objectives that the devs provided. People don't like that as an answer because it's beneficial for the survivors to do them. They're incentivised to do those with either buffs/boons or by removing hexes/debuffs.
What people usually mean when they say 'survivors need a second objective' is for them to be forced to do something that provides no benefit and doesn't progress the game. That's just 'being AFK'.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362773#Comment_3362773
I didn’t even give you my way of reducing tunneling yet…those things you responded to were not for reducing tunneling. Y’all are so hyper aggressive.
I addressed everything you mentioned in your post, and only targeted the points you raised, and why they won't do what you claimed (making tunneling impossible). No attacks on people at all. Calling that 'hyper aggressive' seems incredibly hyperbolic, though it occurs to me you may not have realized I'm not the first one you responded to either.
If you have actual ideas, please put them forward. Otherwise this is just post number 3 in your 'just wait and see, once I put my real thoughts on paper you'll all be amazed' tour.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362645#Comment_3362645
What kind of comment is this? So passive aggressive.
I literally said we would make tunneling near impossible...how about just asking what ideas I had?
Nothing in your comment would make tunneling impossible. Tunneling would still be the most efficient way to play the game.
Reducing pallets just makes dead zones easier and weakening pallets means chases are shorter, sure. But that also shortens chases for the survivor off hook. And if the killer has to choose between two health states of the rescuer (with maybe a dead hard in there), and two health states of OTR and a guaranteed down (with no chance of dead hard), they're going to go for the person off hook every time and get them out of the game faster.
Even if you make the map as small as the basement, with zero pallets, that wouldn't change the fact that tunneling is a permanent reduction of every survivor task by at least 25%, and that a 3v1 is basically a guaranteed win.
The only way to reduce tunneling is to make spreading hooks the more efficient way to play the game. Just flatly buffing killers or nerfing maps also buffs the effectiveness of tunneling and only makes tunneling more prevalent.
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Killer destroys actual comp team so hard it wasn't even close. BUT he was minimally inconvenienced a couple times.
Better nerf the losing team, just to make sure.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362546#Comment_3362546
If this was a skill issue, DH's usage would go down at higher MMRs, not up. Top-tier Killers wouldn't keep running into it, or swinging into it.
I mean, look at this #########. You couldn't ask for someone to put more effort into baiting it out:
This is a very skilled survivor against a very skilled killer. It's not that there's no skill here, it's that both opponents are roughly equally skilled, and are (correctly) predicting each other.
He is absolutely certain that she wants to use dead hard, and she knows he's waiting for a mistake or a cue to swing. They're both in each other's heads... Because both are similar skill.
'Skill issue' is when you have a disparity between opponents' skill levels. What this tends to mean with dead hard is the killer is just following a survivor and swings or even lunges immediately, and the survivor is predicting that to get dead hard value. That's the survivor outplaying the killer, or at least being more patient than the killer.
It's also possible for the killer to out-skill the survivor. Baiting dh is possible, predicting that the survivor has it, not falling for the mind games. Even bringing perks that cause exhaustion can offer value. All possible, but that depends on how good the survivor is, and how good the killer is (again, skill issue).
I'm convinced that if a failed dead hard caused the survivor to scream 'i suck at the video game' when downed, it wouldn't be complained about nearly as often. It's a survivorship bias problem: you only see it when it works, and there's no indication when it failed except to the survivor.
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I'm convinced there are only two changes that need to be made for 'gen rushing'. BNP should give no gen progress, but lock in a gen so it can't regress below 50% (only usable above 50). And Hyperfocus shouldn't work when using a toolbox. If we're feeling ballsy, delete the BP bonus from prove so people stop thinking that 7 seconds on the last gen is losing them games constantly.
Most times, 'gen rush' is an excuse for killers who aren't as good at putting out map pressure as they seem to think they are. Just like 'tunneling' is overblown by survivors even though they got hooked on the 1st and 5th hooks of the game. Gen rushing and tunneling are real things, but aren't necessarily as common as a lot of people think.
The only viable fix to tunneling is to make tunneling (and camping) less efficient than spreading pressure. It will never be 'fixed' by perks, it will have to be a core game change.
Something like this: remove one hook stage per survivor and put it into a 'shared hook' pool. Anyone can use shared hooks, and those are used before your individual hash mark personal hook. So still 12 hooks max, but you'd have to tunnel or camp someone for 6 hook stages from the start of the game to get them out. That becomes a 'throw the game' play every time. This nukes tunneling at 5 gens, but does literally nothing to late game 'strategies', if anything it makes late game easier for the killer.
I'd also make tweaks like survivors can consume a shared hook to unbreakable one time, so early game slugging still gives pressure and can advance the game for the killer, but has counter play with only LIMITED uses of unbreakable. Survivors who attempt to Kobe consume their individual hook stage instead and don't sandbag the team's shared hooks by giving up.