AmpersandUnderscore
AmpersandUnderscore
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You realize that the cooldown for Eruption occurs on the down, not the kick, right? That's live, right now, and isn't being touched at all.
The cooldown is already effectively non-existent.
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Don't think so. The perk takes 4 seconds to reset a pallet, and they said specifically the killer can interrupt the reset. Pallet stuns are 2.7 seconds, so you'll be able to cancel AMN and break the pallet if they try to reset it in your face.
The perk really only gets value if you leave the pallet and the area so they can reset it outside of chase.
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@Marik1987 said:
Pain Res, Deadlock, BBQ on killerside
Deadhard, Self Care and Perk X, probably Off the record or Unbreakable on Nr. 3
Its very obvious.
I'm looking for official numbers and the top 10 perks like they did before. Yes, you can probably guess some of them, but I'd honestly be shocked if Thana, NOED, borrowed time, and spine chill are still in the top 10 (which they were in the last official numbers).
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3341546#Comment_3341546
Eruption clearly didn't outshine all the other regression perks, because pain res still had a higher pick rate. The big lesson is that eruption had the PERCEPTION of outshining all the other regression perks, which is why it was the most complained about regression perk.
Similarly, dead hard has the perception of outshining all the other regression perks, which is why it's still the most complained about exhaustion perk.
If it didn't have the incapacitation effect maybe it would've been complained about less. But having a perk that removes a player from normal gameplay without needing direct interaction with the killer is awful perk design.
But as far as 'outshines every other perk' it absolutely does right now. You get 9s from the 10% chunk on down, 25s where the survivor can't play the game, and 6.25s of additional regression while the survivor is incapacitated. That's 40+ seconds of slowdown from hitting a single survivor from just one perk.
Even *if* Jolt hit 3 gens every down, you'd only get 21.6 seconds of gen progress removed and survivors could counteract the regression immediately.
The numbers and potential with Eruption isn't even close to other slowdown perks currently.
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Hate to shatter the illusion for you, but if one, single perk nerf 'completely destroys' an entire meta...
That's not a 'varied meta', it's a meta that's being hard carried by that single perk.
Personally, if BHVR wants killers to prioritize chase over kicking a gen I find that to be far healthier gameplay.
And seemingly, they'll only look at toolboxes, BNP, and Hyperfocus synergy if the kill rate drops too far. That can never happen if there's an outlier like current Eruption propping up kill rates. Hopefully, since this change is coming in a chapter release instead, then maybe they'll have the data to make additional changes by midchapter balance patch. They've said they're going to be dedicating more effort toward balance, so perk changes are very likely the focus of the 6.6.x midchapter.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/363933/the-fundamental-issue-with-dead-hard
The problem is that it has no downside. Every other exhaustion perk has some kind of downside.
- Adrenaline - Only activates in end-game and only activates once, mostly used for the heal more than the sprint burst.
- Balanced Landing - Very limited usage and heavily map dependent. Many maps only have 1 or 2 spots you can consistently use this at.
- Head On - Requires the survivor to jump into the locker and sit there for 3 seconds, can't really be used effectively in a chase without combining it with other perks.
- Lithe - Requires you to fast vault, meaning you can't loop perfectly efficiently when using it. In theory you could fast vault and not need to "waste" it, but if you slow vaulted you would get hit, making it one of the least efficient perks, but outside of dead hard is more on demand than the others.
- Overcome - Only works when going from a healthy state to an injured state. If you are hit while injured it doesn't work.
- Smash Hit - Requires you to land a pallet stun, which is sometimes easier said than done. Additionally, a pallet stun, depending on the pallet, killer and setup, can already be a chase ender anyway, so the value you get on this is much lower.
- Sprint Burst - You have to walk to not accidentally use it, or 99 it. This requires you to play around the sprint burst very very specifically and it isn't available for you on complete demand.
And then we have dead hard, where the "downside" is that you need to be injured, but becoming injured is a natural thing that will happen in the course of a chase. And if you don't get injured and you don't use it, you didn't need it. If yo do get injured, then it is always available to you at that point with no downside.
Not saying DH is 'fine' per se, but you're leaving out some pretty relevant points.
Dead hard is currently the only exhaustion perk that is completely disabled while in deep wound, a status that is clearly visible to the killer and can be triggered by base kit mechanics, among other things. Hitting someone off hook means they can't use dead hard, where they could, for example, still smash hit or lithe away later in that chase.
The perk is only active for .5 seconds, a window that is highly subject to latency, and not even your latency. The perk is soft countered by VPN or just crappy connections that aren't even visible on the Escape screen that displays your own ping. The only other perks in the list that even come close to requiring this kind of timing are smash hit or possibly head on.
Every other perk you listed, with the exceptions of overcome and smash hit, can be activated early or at a safe distance from the killer and still gain full value. You don't need to wait until the killer is within lunge rage for Sprint burst or lithe to gain distance, for example. You completely waste dead hard if you press e when the killer is heading toward you but not near you, but you are getting full Sprint burst value if you use it at that time.
And, just for comparison's sake, dead hard has the same flaw that overcome does: if you are insta downed from healthy in one hit, the perk doesn't come into play at all.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339821#Comment_3339821
Nah, I'm not that good. But I can do maths.
Healing takes 16 seconds by default. CoH reduces this to 10.66 (recurring) seconds. If a heal is taking 3 seconds, that means they're shaving off 70% of what's left AFTER CoH's heal time reduction, a much bigger reduction than what CoH is contributing.
Maybe they've got We'll Make It? That perk is twice as powerful as CoH.
That's if they're healing each other, too. It's 21.333 seconds if they're self healing in the boon and doesn't include further penalty for mangled status, which is really likely for a wraith to apply with perks or add-ons.
Not to mention that setting up 4 boons is 56 seconds they spent on totems instead of gens. Longer if you count travel time and searching for the totem to bless. And made even worse if blessing a hex or if the killer brought thrill of the hunt.
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BHVR could delete dead hard from the game, burn down the building where it was coded, and perma ban anyone who ever put a single blood point into David.
Two weeks later this forum would be filled with posts about how annoying and unplayable it is when survivors 99% Sprint burst.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337396#Comment_3337396
No, the old posts are always talking about Doctor using his shock to force people off gens so no progress can be made, but never trying to chase or hook anyone. i.e. the Doctor COULD go for people but isn't. The Killer is intentionally making it so that the game can't progress, and making no attempt to do so himself.
I don't know how this keeps consistently being interpreted as "If you don't keep in a chase that will immediately make you lose, you're holding the game hostage".
Especially when the situation we're currently discussing did have the Killer hooking people until everyone was on death hook and it became a contest of who blinks first.
The problem is the stalemate that occurs when the killer stops trying to down or kill survivors *for an extended period of time*.
It's not that 'holding a 3 gen' is the problem. *Most* games, the 3 gen is an incredibly useful tool for the killer because survivors will inevitably make a mistake and go down. The gens in that scenario are the means to that end, even if it takes a couple minutes for that mistake to occur. But the gens aren't the main objective, the killing is.
The difference is in holding a 3 gen for an 'extended time', like the 20 minute span where effectively nothing happened in the game. It is literally impossible for survivors to be trying to do those gens and never creating an opportunity for the killer to get a chance at a chase. The killer is just not doing it, and holding the gens instead of killing. That's the difference.
And the rest of the game before the stalemate is completely irrelevant. I'm sure he had hooks and downs, but then *stopped* to do nothing but guard the gens. In the flip scenario, it's not like survivors hiding for half an hour is suddenly ok because they did 2 gens 45 minutes ago. The problem is when one side completely forgoes their objective for an extended period and the game isn't or can't progress.
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In general, 'healthy' perks are going to have restrictions on how/when they're used, and generally only do one specific thing.
Since I'm sure someone will misunderstand what I mean by 'restrictions', I mean like Pop Goes the Weasel (the previous meta kick perk pre nerf): a perk that only activates on a hook, can only be used on a single gen at a time, and must be used within 45s of that hook.
Seeing as we're talking about gen regression, let's take Jolt. The restriction is that it only works in a smallish area (not map wide, for ex.) and only causes gen regression. It doesn't debuff survivors, or give information, aura reading or anything like that. It just takes a bite out of nearby gens and starts regressing. It rewards the killer for chasing, and there's even counter play for when survivors realize the perk is in play. It's also a good perk, but not so strong that a killer is going to give up a chase the instant a survivor starts heading to where gens are already completed. The chase is more important than Jolt value.
It's when you break one or both of those guidelines is where you start getting problems. The obvious outlier that breaks all of these rules is Eruption. The perk has effectively no restrictions because the cooldown applies on down, not on kick. There's nothing preventing someone from applying Eruption to every gen on the map because the perk is always active to be used and never expires once applied. Getting a down is the trigger condition, not a restriction to it's use.
On top of that, Eruption does at least 4 things. The 'counter play' is passive slowdown (not touching that gen) since you may not have any idea if the gen is affected or not. The perk gives regression, which is it's main purpose (again, chunk + regression like Jolt). Then it can also debuff survivors to remove them from normal gameplay, and can makes them scream as a directional audio information cue to which gen is being worked on.
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As long as the survivors are trying to progress gens and running away out of self preservation, the survivors are in the clear here. You need to be attempting to do both of your objectives (finish gens, and survive), which it sounds like is the case here.
If the killer is holding gens but not attempting to down survivors or obtain kills for an extended time, they are ignoring their objective to kill survivors and causing the stalemate here.
In the scenario I described, which sounds like at least part of your match, the killer is the one in the wrong.
Source for BHVR's comment on this kind of scenario:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/521124/#Comment_521124
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I don't see anything specifically about "hostage situations" here, but here are the official game rules reference: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/139-game-rules
The official responses from BHVR basically boil down to this: 'holding a game hostage' occurs in a reportable way when the game no longer progress after an extended period of time for some reason. The exact definition of 'extended time' is intentionally vague because a lot of factors can come into play. There is some nuance to this, which is why I suspect BHVR wants a report with video evidence rather than just a text report.
The most common forms of confirmed 'hostage taking' are:
* Stalemate scenario: Remaining 2 or more survivors are hiding from the killer, without attempting to touch gens, for an extended period of time. (Survivors focusing on the survival objective, but completely ignoring the complete gens to escape objective)
* Stalemate scenario: Killer is using perks and power to secure an area (usually 3gen), without attempting to down or kill survivors for an extended period of time. (Focusing on gen regression, but completely ignoring the kill survivors objective)
* Hard bodyblocking is a gray area. This is where a survivor is held in place by the killer or other survivor(s) in a small area and can't leave until the other player(s) move first. Usually, if a survivor is hard body blocked in a corner by the killer or survivors, the game might still progress (the remaining survivors can finish gens, open the doors, and escape, while the bodyblocked survivor dies to EGC). However, if all remaining survivors are body blocked by the killer who isn't taking the free hits to continue the game, this is considered a hostage situation. Especially if the killer just goes afk.
Most common complaints people claim are "hostage" really aren't. They might be unsportsmanlike, bad mannered, and/or toxic, but not an actual hostage situation as far as BHVR reporting is concerned. Things like: tunneling, camping, slugging, or teabagging at the exit gate all end with normal gameplay of the survivor dying or the EGC ending the game. Hiding during a "slug for the 4k" scenario is not a hostage situation, even if the "last survivor standing" does nothing but crouch in the corner while the slug bleeds out (a 4 minute timer).
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334766#Comment_3334766
I'm...honestly not sure what they are trying to do besides some vague hand-wavey:
'Oh yes, all those killers are to blame!'
'Which killers?'
'THOSE killers, all THOSE killers'
'No, which killers, specifically?'
'...' <silence>
It's like the inverse of a NTS fallacy. We'll see if @Firellius can actually back this one up, especially their claim that BHVR are conspiring with this invisible, secret organization of killers - so secret that I don't think I've seen a single credible one in recent memory - to make tunneling stronger.
Exhibit A: 6.1.0 PTB Initial testing patch for the major perk changes. Where OTR would stack with (then 5s) base BT, allowing a survivor immediately hit off hook to take a BT hit, then still use OTR after to actually deter tunneling. This was heavily complained about on the forums and Reddit, especially with a couple of video clips that showed survivors throwing the game to try and stack the on hook effects. People still complain about the 'Endurance meta' even though this was only ever on PTB for about 3 days and was changed before it went live *because of feedback*.
Exhibit B: 6.2.0 PTB for Wesker chapter. Reassurance was on cooldown with infinite use during the ptb. Again, the perk was heavily complained about as being too good to counter camping and some people went as far as to say it 'could be used to hold a survivor hostage', though to this day I've still never seen evidence that this actually occurred, or could occur with a killer who isn't afk. If that was the reason for the change, the answer to griefing with it was two allow the person on hook to cancel the effect, which was also proposed as a solution to both problems. Instead, the perk was limited to one use per hook event before it went live. Again, based on feedback.
So there's absolutely some group that is vocal enough that BHVR is making changes based partially or completely on that feedback. And these changes are directly opposing both camping and tunneling.
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My only objection is that it should be a slider. I see no reason why it shouldn't be a menu option, but it shouldn't be always on 'base kit' for people who don't want it either.
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@Yankus said:
People killing themselves on first hooks also count towards the kill rate. Anyone who plays killer knows this is super common yet they inflate the kill numbers.
And killers who give hatch are deflating kill numbers too.
But for some reason, slugging for the 4k is incredibly common. So I guess if killers want to guarantee buffs, they should give hatch every game. That would reduce kill percentage by up to 25%.
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There are a ton of base kit killer buffs planned for patch 6.1 across the board, like a 10% speed increase for chase-related actions. I hear bloodlust is also getting a pretty big buff.
Current estimates are that this will increase kill rates by roughly 10-15% after it goes live, which will put every killer above a 50% kill rate, including the weakest ones like trapper. Most killers will be over 60%.
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@Carth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330284#Comment_3330284
Sure let's talk about those values!
Shorter pallet break: .26 seconds faster
Survivors getting less distance when hit: .2 seconds shorter
Cooldown on hit: .3 seconds faster
Mini pop: 2.5% = .025 * 90 = 2.25 seconds of gen progress removed with a 1.8 second animation of kicking is bad. I have yet to see a single case where a gen is at 90%, it gets kicked, and the survivor player says "oh man I really shouldn't tap that gen...I might lose 2.25 seconds of progress!"
So fractions of seconds are super impactful and good right? Did that apply to base kit BT that was given to survivors as well? We went from the perk only providing 13 seconds of endurance to the base version lasting 10 seconds with a 7% haste and the buffed perk version lasting a staggering 20 seconds with haste, did STBFL/brutal strength(the most comparable perks on the killer side) get a buff on that level?
Being real, the only impactful 6.1.0 changes were the DH change and the +10 seconds to gens along with the eruption change. I would imagine any killer would happily trade any of the above insignificant values for old pop/ruin/CI/thana back. We can even try to explore and see how big of an impact some of the above are. Let's take a look at the .2 second sprint burst nerf and try to see how big of a physical meter distance it is
old sprint burst on hit: (4.0 * 1.65) * 2 = 13.2 meters gained from a hit
new sprint burst on hit: (4.0 * .2) + (4.0 * 1.65 * 1.8) = 11.88 meters gained from a hit
so the survivor will get 1.32 meters less than before, now this isn't accounting for the hit cooldown as well, but I promise it is just as minor as the sprint burst reduction. Am I saying that the changes did nothing? No, but I am saying that they also suddenly didn't impact every single chase in the game or have even a large impact on killers overall, using the math above I can say that unless you were within ~1.32 meters of a vault/pallet when you get hit while in chase from healthy -> down then the change didn't do anything.
Since all of these changes dropped at once we can't really isolate and point at any one thing being the cause of the kill rates increasing but if I had to guess a real cause it was the nerf to DH(50-80% perk useage across mid and high MMR survivors), extra 10 seconds on gens, and the eruption buff. I doubt it was really the 1.32 meter delta change in chase that suddenly made killers feel extremely strong when 6.1.0 dropped.
While I get what you're saying, 1.32m isn't 'nothing' either, especially since the blade wiping buff further means you're catching up sooner, even if that survivor has an immediately available pallet or window. Which you said, but shrugged off the extra 1.38m gained compared to before that patch. In a dead zone, both of those changes combine, and the survivor has 2.7m less of a lead than before the 6.1 patch.
And, for comparison, the 'for distance' portion of dead hard that was removed was at best 2.28m of distance, and that's rounding up. But that shows why just looking at 'oh, it's only .2 seconds difference' is misleading. The question is: is the potential for 2.5m of extra distance in nearly every chase valuable or not?
I'm always amused at how people downplay the 6.1 buff of doing nearly every common killer action 10% faster as though it's trivial and nearly meaningless. But I guarantee if we just reverted it back to the pre 6.1 values it would be panned as 'the worst nerfs ever'.
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I submitted a bug report for this. There's at best an inconsistency with blinding killers during the break pallet animation currently.
If I had to guess, it could be that the base kit lightborn while pulling a survivor out of a locker is bugged and it's being applied to other forms of interactions. I haven't had a pallet blind work for me, as either role, since the patch, but others seem to have it work sporadically.
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There was a time when killers saw 'kicking a gen' as a horrible, inefficient, waste of time and effort.
Apparently that has become 'nothing' and, for a lot of killers, is even more important than chasing survivors in the current meta.
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So, excessive hiding is only a hostage situation if it goes on 'for a long time'. Obviously there's some subjectivity to that, but there's intended to be nuance. It's not like sirens are going off and your account gets banned if you let go of a gen at any point during a game, just that the game does/can hit a stalemate point if no one is ever trying to complete their objective for a long time.
The fact that you are trying to work on gens generally means you're ok in that situation, even if the killer is searching for 'a minute or so' because hiding is appropriate gameplay there.
Usually in that situation tho, it's just a matter of time until you get caught and the other guy keeps hiding. If I'm the killer in that game, I'll usually try to let the useful survivor have hatch and hunt down the useless one. But there's no guarantee other killers will do that.
Your options aren't great either way. You basically get to choose:
* The good teammate. Try to do the gen until you get caught. You aren't breaking any rules, and are actively playing/trying to progress the game, and eventually you'll get caught and the other guy might get hatch.
* The altruist. Giving up to the killer to move into the next game. Same effect as the good teammate, but you're giving up to avoid an extended game. Also not reportable or breaking rules, but I also don't fault survivors who actually want to survive.
* The rat. Find the other survivor and hide with them, making as much noise as you can for the killer and never let them get away from you. Leave scratch marks so the killer finds both of you. Unsportsmanlike, and touches on 'working with the killer' if you get hatch, but the other guy gets punished too. At best it's sandbagging, but the game should progress when you're found.
* The snitch. Boldy make a deal with the killer and go find the other guy with him. Unsportsmanlike, and technically reportable as 'definitely working with the killer', but still an option.
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@jesterkind said:
Don't forget that Incapacitated is how Victor works, and was introduced with him. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's just Victor, Eruption, and a Huntress addon that applies the status effect to begin with, right? Maybe I'm missing one, but nobody's complaining about Victor preventing you from performing actions, nor are they complaining about that Huntress addon; they're complaining about Eruption, because that perk is overtuned.
Nerfing Incapacitated like this would heavily punish Twins (because holding Victor for as long as possible wouldn't even stop you working on generators), and would still result in Eruption being kind of overtuned and too easily circumvented by players on comms. The solution is to remove Incapacitated from Eruption entirely, not to change the status effect itself.
Pinhead chains, whether chain hunt or m2 also give incapacitated status when they attach. But keeping it restricted to killer powers is healthier for that particular status effect.
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The bigger difference is that Blast Mine is inactive until earned, can only affect one generator at a time, and times out after 60s whether it's used or not.
If you're looking for similarities, Eruption needs some kind of restriction to when the perk is available, not a buff to blast mine. Being effectively always available to use makes it oppressive, which is what would also happen if you removed these restrictions from blast mine. (Although reverting the uncalled for blast mine nerfs would be nice).
But yes, these are the only two perks in the game that can remove a character from normal gameplay without direct interaction with another player.
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@Alionis said:
Read up on the power next time.
There's nothing either in game on the knights power or on the wiki that mentions this behavior, hence why I'm posting here.
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Tarhos_Kov%C3%A1cs
I would expect guards to have roughly the same pathing capabilities as nemesis zombies, which are limited to walking or falling.
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@Mandy said:
Hello, thank you for reporting this in - can you give more information on what killers couldn't be blinded, thank you!
Sure thing, the two I remember for sure were trapper and wraith.
I was playing as trapper and had someone shine the flashlight for the entire break animation. I got the 'halo' at the edge of the screen, but never the fully obscured, 'blinded' screen. I was able to look away after the break and still see. I didn't have lightborn or any perks that speed up pallet breaks like fire up or brutal strength.
When I tried against a wraith later, I did much the same thing as the survivor. Waited until the break animation started and then used the light on their face. I heard the audio cue that the flashlight was aimed correctly, but it didn't progress to the 'flared beam' of the full blind. I just assumed he had lightborn and went for burning him instead later (which did work). But he wasn't running lightborn at all in the end game lobby screen. No other weirdness that game, so I doubt it was someone cheating just to give themselves lightborn there.
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There's a base kit penalty for survivors working together on a gen. Prove doesn't even completely eliminate that penalty.
Two survivors on separate gens finish them in 90s. Two together, even with Prove and no travel time factored in, take 92.08 seconds to finish the same two gens. Survivors splitting up is *always* more efficient than working together with PT, the exception being the last gen, which saves maybe 6 seconds total.
You can read more about the actual mechanics of how this perk functions here:
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Prove_Thyself
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That's not how they changed the system at all. Pipping is still tied to emblems and bloodpoints. Nothing about that has changed at all.
The only change was the text you get at the top of the screen, so it's easier to get adept now. All you need is a 4k to get Merciless now, not to get 4 iridescent emblems.
Technically, you could go into a game with the killer's 3 unique perks, go AFK, and you can get adept if the survivors all die to the end game collapse. That counts as a 4k, and 'Merciless killer', but you will also depip because you have nearly nothing earned toward emblems.
This is the text from the patch notes:
- Moving forward, getting 4 Kills will earn the Killer a Merciless Killer rating, rather than the previous requirement of a double pip.
Nowhere have they ever said that a Merciless rating is an automatic double pip, that's the whole reason emblems exist, to grade how well you played as a killer.
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You can't really leave bugs in the game, even if you wanted to implement that feature it should be an intentional change.
Knowing this game, that same bug probably caused a survivor to gain bloodlust 1 permanently if the basement chest was opened while they were on hook or something.
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On PC, boil over appears to be working just fine and I can tell the wiggle is stronger now.
Weirdly though, the base kit wiggle appears to be bugged. It's basically non-existent now and I can walk in a straight line like they aren't hitting checks at all. Pretty sure that's not intended, since it's supposed to be a bit stronger with the impossible-to-miss greats now.
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@Milo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/362088/updates-is-terrible
... They "nerfed" great skillchecks. It saved you a second if you hit all of them.
I'm also not convinced the new system is working correctly (could be bugged).
According to the patch notes, a great skill check now is supposed to be (slightly) more wiggle resistance for the killer than it was before, but it doesn't feel like any resistance at all right now.
Carrying or being carried, without boil over, seems to not have any impact on the killer. It's like you aren't hitting skill checks at all. Boil over appears to be working though.
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@ExcelSword said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3326640#Comment_3326640
No, it isn't taking the game hostage, since the match is in EGC and will end in 3 minutes.
I'm assuming that the Victor was being controlled as opposed to being idle? In that case he made the smart play, because if he can't down you then Charlotte may not not be able to make it over in time to stop the gate from being open.
It's not a hostage situation if the hatch is available or closed, no.
But theoretically the twins could still do this with 2 or more survivors remaining once the gens are complete. Especially if they set up to block the gates before last gen pops.
That would be a hostage situation if they do nothing but sit there for an extended period, since the game isn't progressing in that state (and can't until one of them moves away or downs someone).
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@Timmylaw said:
I had a game earlier with survivors blinding me at every pallet break on Eyrie
Could be inconsistent. I definitely had it happen to me as killer, and twice in live games as survivor before I went to go test it. Also been watching streams today where it's happening to other people regularly.
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@JoeChill261 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3326206#Comment_3326206
That is latency and the fact that your survivors hitbox is vertical, and matches where your following foot is when running.
So their original complaint was that hit boxes are inaccurate to models, and your counter argument is to agree that hit boxes don't match up to the models?
I notice you forgot to mention that hatchets, in particular, have a spherical hit box when connecting with survivors, but have a much smaller 'rectangular' hitbox for avoiding terrain. So you can thread the needle on edges of walls and certain rocks, then hit someone nearly a meter away from their avatar position.
Understanding 'why' the hitbox is janky doesn't make it feel any more fair being in the receiving end of a hatchet that hits you from around a corner on your screen. That's kinda the point.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3325325#Comment_3325325
I have yet to see a single spawn of map without one. For me it would be so shocking as main not spawning one
I think I've seen an empty gallows one time, so it's incredibly rare.
And even that game, the gen was in shack instead. So it was still a possible 3 gen, but much easier to pressure on low ground in the common looping spot.
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So, two different people give you roughly 15 possible explanations for what you posed as a genuine question. You respond by dismissing 2 of the 15 suggestions and claiming the only explanation is cheats.
It's far less believable that you're being sincere when you 'casually' toss in what sounds like a content creators name, but with zero screenshots, video, or actual evidence.
If 'everyone in the lobby was cheating', this sounds like a self report that you did something with cheats yourself, since you are part of 'everyone' in that lobby and could clearly see everything going on.
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@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3325192#Comment_3325192
in for honor the fast attack of some characters lasts 300ms, in order to parry it in the interval between 150-270 you need to press rmc, it will be considered difficult, but by no means impossible, professional players even often do not use fast attack so that they are not paired, so 500 ms even ping is not a problem.
That's if you're using it reactively.
Unfortunately for you, the exact same reaction timing works if the survivor uses it proactively too. So I guess it's not a problem at all then.
I swear, some people act like survivors carry pallets around in their pockets and the killer is incapable of zoning survivors.
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@LuthirFontaine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3325013#Comment_3325013
... Didn't know that can you link where you get that info from?
It's not true in the slightest. While I'm sure he can find some third party site that claims certain statistics, we actually have data from BHVR on this that includes 100% of all DBD players:
@McDoobz said:
In June, we brought major changes to the game. At the time, we stated that one of the main objectives behind the meta-shifting perk overhaul and base gameplay changes was to improve the overall kill rate (how many Survivors are killed each trial, on average). As stated in our most recent stats post , we did achieve that goal and as you’ll see in the below graphs, the kill rate continues to hover around the 59% to 61% range (up from a 51% to 53% range).
In the context of this new meta, many of you have been expressing that you’d like to see where each killer’s kill rate now stands. So, we’ve compiled the most recent data to share with you.
We’ve created two charts to help you visualize and analyze these stats:
- The first chart represents the kill rate broken down by killer, for all players (all Matchmaking Ratings), for the period of September 2022.
- The second chart also represents the kill rate broken down by killer for the same period, but only for players in the top 5% MMR.
Some things to keep in mind as you consult these charts:
- We rounded up some of the kill rates to make the charts below easier to read (only values ≥ 0.95 were rounded up). Scroll past the charts for exact kill rate values for each data set.
- It’s worth noting that many factors are taken into account when it comes to balancing killer powers and character perks, not only data.
- As always, we are monitoring our overall game balance on an ongoing basis and taking your feedback into account when evaluating whether or not design changes should be made. So please keep sharing your thoughts and experiences with us! We read you daily and relay your feedback to the appropriate people on a regular basis.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GOYEKDMA1XC3/microsoftteams-image-2873-29.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QBAVCNOU4QO5/microsoftteams-image-2875-29.png
EXACT KILL RATE & PICK RATE VALUES BY MMR
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LRXX3PMFOM90/tablekr3.png
We hope you enjoy studying these numbers as much as we do!
Until next time...
The Dead by Daylight team
Latest report was October 2022, average kill rate is 61%. This is kill rates, not 'wins'. If we define a killer 'loss' with 0-1k, and 'win' at 3-4k, calling a 2k a tie game, the win rate is roughly 50/50.
Even using a different definition of 'win' doesn't change the fact that killers are averaging better than a 2k using global numbers.
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@Rudjohns said:
You guys act as if DH was a "third health state" but in fact people still need to press a button for .5 seconds of endurance
It's not that hard to counter DH guys
It's 500ms max, and reduced by the killer's ping. So if a killer is laggy and has 150ms latency, the server sees 'free hit' and then confirms that there was no endurance. In that scenario, the survivor only gets 350ms of reaction time. The average human reaction time is 250-350ms.
This is why survivors get the 'exhausted on the ground' issue. On the survivor's end they hit the button in time, but the server ruled in favor of the killer because of ping.
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They've already said they aren't doing any perk changes in the midchapter patch tomorrow, so it'll be another 3 months of this at least.
I think Thana only got changed because they had their team available and ready to go if there were any egregious outliers with the 6.1 patch, and Thana was everywhere.
But Eruption didn't bubble up to the surface for a month or two, and I assume the team at BHVR was already tasked with other things and couldn't look into fixes by then.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3324999#Comment_3324999
In my opinion, the special attack change is way more annoying than the add-ons (Franklin, among others). As for the add-ons their power/counters can be debated on for days. Here I'm curious about the thought process, not this specific killer. It's just that it's her turn and seeing how low she is generally makes it a good subject.
What do you mean with the kill percentage being misleading? Is it imprecise? What (else) would matter in your opinion?
Kill percentage is misleading for a few reasons. Any stats I use are the most recent official numbers from BHVR, for reference:
Brand new players will have lower kill rates than more experienced players, and in this case it's the higher end of the spectrum where nurse becomes a problem. The easiest way to see why this can be misleading is the graph below.
All three of these lines have an "average kill rate" of 50%. The blue line is "perfectly balanced", which is unrealistic but there for comparison. The other two lines could actually approximate the real values given for the nurse by BHVR's stats: the total average is around 50%, but the right-hand end of the graph, the top 5%, is north of 60% kill rate. Not perfect to their numbers, but I didn't want to fiddle with graphs all day, and this gets the point across.
The curved line is what I expect is the closest to the real values for nurse, but I actually can't claim to know that for certain. I'm basing that off of experienced nurses being far, far more effective at high mmr, and the top 5% includes Nurse players like Supalf, who went on a 400+ game win streak with the character. Ideally, you would want to make changes to the character so that, hopefully, the curved line flattens out a bit more at each end. Bringing it closer to the blue line, and closer to "balanced".
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The real answer here is because balancing the game around a single statistic like 'kill percentage' is misleading. There are changes they can make that affect the highest tier of players far more than newer players.
One of the problems with nurse is her add-ons, which is literally the only part of her kit that's changing. Newer nurses will/should be using half of their add-on slots for plaid flannel to understand and see where they're going. This add-on isn't changing at all, and nurse players who rely on it still have it.
One of the problems at high tiers of play is with stacking double range add-ons, which cut down chase times even more than ignoring all terrain/obstacles already did. An inexperienced nurse could even be punished by using these, since any mistake gets amplified by the extra range. These add-ons are being removed completely.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3324956#Comment_3324956
Points number two and three on:
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Eruption
Are what I'm talking about.
Eruption triggers when a survivor enters the dying state (point two, specifically, in your own link). There's no requirement for a survivor to be hooked, in fact they could be left as a slug with no hooks occurring at all from the down.
Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance, on the other hand, is partially countered by letting go of a gen when a survivor is hooked.
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I think insidious rework world be something where, on hooking a survivor, your terror radius is reduced based on how far you are from the hook for 30 seconds or something. So if you stay at the hook, full terror radius, but once you get about 32m from the hooked survivor your terror radius is 0.
Make it a good perk for getting into the next chase and not just a 'camping enabler' perk.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3324320#Comment_3324320
That does not match the data usage rates we have for the perk even remotely close. You are an extreme outlier if you’re serious about that.
Unless I missed a post, the most recent perk statistics we have from BHVR are from September 15, 2022 (it's in the general news section too, link at the bottom). The top 10 killer perks include NOED and Thana from that post, so it's clearly outdated at this point. Remember when Thana was everywhere right after the 6.1 patch until they nerfed it? Yeah, that's that data.
Or are you referring to some third party site that only includes data from user uploads? You haven't provided a link to what you're referencing, but since you seem to be claiming we have a percentage for anything but the top 3 perks I highly doubt it's the official data.
And given that experience is subjective, and subject to region, MMR, and time of day, then yeah. It's actually possible that 80% of someone's games could have a single, meta defining perk in them during a play session or two.
And here's the BHVR post I mentioned. The kill stats given in October made no mention of perks, only killers.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/346830/stats-6-1-0-in-review#latest
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323689#Comment_3323689
Bot pathing hasn't been an issue when I've played bot games in customs and I've played a fair few practicing with new killers.
And you're willfully ignoring the point that literally every single game I've seen where a surv DCs, is a landslide in the killer's favour. As killer I see a DC early and I have that game in the bag without fail, as a surv I can't remember ever escaping a game with an early DC unless killer deliberately released me. Now I don't see how you can make that worse.
Sure killer farms off the bot, oni gets blood for rage mode. Meyers gets more stalk progress. More BP for them, and they win a game they were going to lose anyway. Bots using wesker spray or nemi vaccines, popping gens to trigger bear traps using up resources survivors need? Know what that reminds me of? Other survivors in solo q games.
And those are pretty niche examples. Personally I've never died to a reverse bear trap. If the game is already a write off, better to add something that is on the survivor's side. Except bots will actually heal, unhook and do things to benefit survivors. Maybe not well, maybe tactically bad decisions. But in a game that's already a certain loss? There are always cons, but the benefits definitely outweigh them.
I'm not ignoring anything. I can admit there are some, niche circumstances where bots might be helpful.
But the system is subject to being abusable, and it absolutely will be. Which will just lead to more disconnects when a bot loads in.
And the biggest problem is that it's only treating a symptom with a clearly flawed system. Finding ways to address even some of the reasons people disconnect at all is healthier and a much better use of the devs time.
This game doesn't need any more knee jerk, band-aid solutions tossed in. Especially not when it likely means balance patches get pushed back even farther than they already are.
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@TeabaggingGhostface said:
There should be a buff speed limit
Both increases and slowdowns to healing and repair speeds should have a hard cap. There's literally zero reason for this to not be a thing already.
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Killers: I'm so sick of gen rushing, endurance, and exhaustion perks every game!
Survivors: Stacks 4 completely off meta perks and a single circle of healing.
Killers: Wait, no.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323524#Comment_3323524
Like i said, even if the bot sucks it still provides a distraction to let human survs get more BP. and how is killer avoiding bot any different from them slugging or letting a useless player run around?
I don't see how bot filling is bad in any sense. Sure they can't replace a human player (although tbh a lot of human players are actively worse) there is no way an ineffective bot is worse than there being straight up no survivor in that slot.
Ever heard of the lanchester squared principle? If you totally take a survivor out of the equation, it disproportionately affects the survivor team. Sure some killers will manipulate the bots to win. But currently a DC early to mid game is an auto win for killer. Don't really see how that situation will be made any worse at all by the addition of bots.
You 'don't see how bot filling is bad in any sense' because you're willfully ignoring situations where bots would cause problems, where players, or even empty slots, wouldn't.
Survivor bots are in game, right now. Load up a custom game and just watch them. They get stuck on rocks, have bad pathing, get stuck in infinite pathing loops. A hard stuck bot is actively worse than an empty slot: still contributes nothing to survivors, but can prevent the game from progressing (like EGC) and actively enables some killer perks and abilities.
And I've already discussed killers farming their power off of them. With infinite tombstone Myers you're absolutely better off with an empty survivor slot if the alternative is having a bot feed him tier 3 and then get instantly tombstoned anyway.
Bots always do the same thing, zero decision making. Does the bot finish a gen and activate a real player's pig hat? Do they cleanse instantly against plague only to immediately get sick again? Even players don't always know the answer every time because these are situational. But bots will always blindly do the same thing.
Consuming map resources is another issue. Do they use up every vaccine for Nemi or spray for Wesker? Will they try to avoid a 3 gen, or just do whatever is closest to them or outside the terror radius? How many pallets do they use in chase?
But maybe I need to address this a different way. If backfill bots are added, then there's no reason anymore that games with a DC wouldn't be counted in gamewide kill rates. Global kill rates will skyrocket, since these are losing games most of the time, and killers will get hard nerfed across the board.
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@littlepaw said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322449#Comment_3322449
absolutely not better than being a man down, i would rather go next in a 3v1 than have a bot as a 4th player because we'd still be boned, have you SEEN them go straight to corners and loop corner tiles 🤨 the ai is just not strong enough yet to replace a human player in a killer-favourable scenario, i'm sorry
PLUS i can already hear the shaming for going next AFTER bot backfill because "bloodpoints" and "the game's still winnable" :/ it will just make 3v1 scenarios more toxic and will cause infighting over mediocre ai that can't carry the weight of a regular person
Bot gets infinitely stuck in a rock and can't move.
Killer ignores them because it's 'the best strategy'.
Survivors still stuck in a 3v1, but 'they got backfill bot so it's fair now'.
And as a side effect, if all 4 survivors leave that means the killer is trapped in a game with 4 ai.
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@Tsulan said:
The issue is, that most people voted "faster queues" in a poll about matchmaking. Queues were around 5-15 minutes back then.
So the devs widened the span of players getting matched to shorten said queues.
A middle ground could be a slider for players that allows for fairer matches in exchange for longer queues/shorter queues for unfairer matches.
I forget the exactly when that poll came out, but they also did a week's worth of matchmaking experiments, on live servers, and asked for direct feedback on what 'felt best' without telling us what they were changing every day.
So I feel like they went pretty far with trying to find a balance on this. The devs aren't perfect, but I really respected them running that test, and kinda want them to do more of that in the future.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323101#Comment_3323101
Yeah, I don't really want to ad-hom here, but that's not what I'm seeing from you - at all.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323120#Comment_3323120
If those arguments are so self-evidently weak, then you can just ignore them. There are a ton of folks on these forums, so you can always find someone saying some silly thing - and when you post it as if that was the common opinion of killers, it actually weakens your own argument.
Here's the other side of the perk equation. You don't know, as a killer, if you're facing a bunch of solos with meh perks or a monster SWF with PTS/Hyp/Stakeout, and you won't know until you've lost 4 gens in 3 minutes. So...yeah, about all you can do is try to buy time to figure it out.
Again - if the incap is really the problem here, then make it a slightly longer gen block (to compensate for the lost regression time)...but from what I'm seeing, complaining about the incap is really just a smokescreen for ye olde 'whatever the current killer meta is is unfun because I lost to it' nonsense.
It doesn't matter if it's a minority (I would hesitate to call it small, I think the last time we got stats, 50% of survivors play in groups of some size). It's the potential that you could be facing that group in your next game that makes killers run deep regression and come in firing.
I think that's entirely fair, actually. 'Fun' is subjective. I have fun in solo queue, but I realize that it's sub-optimal and will always be sub-optimal, because if SWF exists, then that is what is needed to be balanced around. Otherwise, it's massively unfair to killers. You'd basically be saying 'well, if you get an SWF, you might as well just take a loss at the selection screen'. So much for interactivity.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323110#Comment_3323110
Consider what Eruption takes to trigger, and that it can be countered. 40 seconds is...frankly, the bare minimum you'd need unless your goal is just to Thana the perk (or maybe 'Ruin' the perk would be better). Comparing perks to other perks in a vacuum is pointless, because it's usually the synergy that makes it worth running.
That 'Erupted' effect would be doing this - you'd just see the perk stop being used, because now you've got an unreliable perk that needs kicking. A lot of genspeed comes from hitting Greats (which is why Hyperfocus/Stakeout is so brutal to face).
I'm going off the 'chase indicator' because...duh? We'll probably have that in less than a week. If I'm playing solo queue, I run Empathy (some folks like Bond) - and with that, I'd say that I can reliably predict when to let go more than half the time. And I'm not anything close to a good survivor.
You're completely ignoring that survivors have agency here. Take note of which gens are kicked. If someone's being chased, anticipate the down. If you waste a few seconds, you're still ahead of the game.
It matters less to me what the perk does and more that it needs restrictions to when it can be used. Make it usable once after a hook, make the cooldown apply on kick instead of down. There are options other than being effectively always active.
I prefer alternatives to gen blocking because that can make the perk even stronger in some scenarios, depending on how it's implemented. A DMS style block (only if the survivor is 'hit') isn't nearly as bad as a deadlock style (forces you off the gen) but it's still not a great solution imo.
I'm also not sure why this one perk specifically needs to be locked in at 40+ seconds of slowdown. No other perk provides nearly that much value unless the gen is left to regress freely by survivors. It already provides more regression than Jolt (with infinite range), and that's if no one gets 'hit' by it. Or maybe you're trying to say that Jolt, pop, pain res, etc should all be at least 30% to compete with the 40+ seconds of slowdown on a single perk slot? Either way, Eruption is an outlier.
And since it came up, deal with toolboxes, BNP, and make Hyperfocus not work when using a toolbox. Multiple things can be broken at the same time.
As of right now, anytime after the start of the game, you have to assume that every gen has Eruption. Even a gen at zero when I get there isn't necessarily safe. It's like playing around pain res, except it's a random duration every time someone becomes injured. Doable, but less consistent and far, far more reliant on luck. And god forbid you get a situation where someone gets grabbed while healthy, there's no amount of 'skill' that will predict that.
Sure, it'll be easier with the chase indicator when it's live. That hasn't been an option for the past six months, so why would I talk about it like that's a tool I have readily available now? Will it help? Sure. Does that change my opinion that I think Eruption is terrible perk design? No. The indicator will be useful, but Eruption still needs to have some restriction to when it's usable.